another great reason to Become a Paladin

Too all you spell casters
You have just been nutered

I rolled in a change this morning that effects the way any spells that confer OHC bonuses work. For some time, the use of macros has circumvented the original design intent of the OHC bonus that Mana Disrupt, Bone Shatter, and Bane/Smite provide.

The game balance concept behind OHC spells was that they would provide extra power in exchange for added risk. However, the use of macros to almost instantaneously jump from offensive back to defensive and pull out a weapon after an OHC cast was circumventing this design to a great extent. The development teams for wizards/sorcerers and clerics/emapths spent roughly a month discussing the implications of this and any changes that we wanted to make as a result with the goal of preserving the design intent of these spells without making spell casting untenable in the process.

After discussing several options we settled on the implementation of the CHANNEL verb, which can be used instead of CAST in conjunction with 702, 302, and 1106 to achieve the OHC bonus (provided the person has a hand open). Use of CAST will no longer provide an OHC bonus, even if the person has an open hand. The use of CHANNEL will impose a 3 second HardRT instead of CastRT. As a result of this change, CHANNEL cannot be used for sending mana (use SEND instead). CHANNEL works identically to CAST except that it imposes 3 second RT HardRT as opposed to CastRT.

Please post any questions you have about this change in the All Things Magical topic in The Next Generation of Gemstone category.

Nilven

Bug? BUG?? What do you mean bug? That isn't a bug, that is a feature.

[Tendarian]

TOJ beat you to the punch. I really hate this cause i am one of the people that abuse it by using macros :) But i guess ill be able to live with three seconds and make it a script instead.

[GuildRat]

I've gotta applaud that, I've been arguing with sorcerers and clerics for years about the OHC'ing flaws.

Yay design team!!!

[Artha]

You'll just have to stance dance your casting. It's not terribly difficult.

[Tendarian]

Not difficult at all but it is a pain in the ass. I dont see the point of the change.

Hunt bonespear and talk about stance dancing... critters walk in and swing instantaniouly how do you stance dance that?

Does this now mean that pures will have DFredux since we will be getting hit much more often?

[Tendarian]

If you single spells i bet you could.

[Artha]

Hunt bonespear and talk about stance dancing... critters walk in and swing instantaniouly how do you stance dance that?

You let them walk in, swing, and then kill them.

[Prosperanna]

For those of us who don't cast, can you explain this in English? What's an OHC bonus? And since when can you cast something and not have a roundtime?

[Miss X]

ohc is open handed casting. Basically spells like 302 (smite/bane) 702 etc cause more damage if you have no weapon out. My cleric hunts with 302 and always does it open handed for better results.
At the moment people are using macros to stow weapon, cast at the critter then get the weapon back out as quick as possible, because casting roundtime doesnt affect actions. (so basically you can move around etc while in cast RT)

From what I can gather, this is gonna be changed so when you want to get an ohc bonus you have to channel instead of cast, and you will get the 3sec RT, but its hard rt so you wont be able to get your weapon back out for 3 seconds, whereas before you could do it straight away.

Thats just what Ive picked up from what I read, if thats wrong then bleh, im tired! hehe
Vx

[GuildRat]

Well, not to incite a riot among the pures, but OHC was meant to increase the damage/crits caused if you casted without the weapon defense bonus and in a more vulnerable stance at an increased risk to the caster.

Tell me how the risk is increased if you can cast, stance to guarded and pull out a weapon within a second of the cast?

No one is forcing the pures to cast open handed, it's just gonna take more mana to do the damage.

**Not difficult at all but it is a pain in the ass. I dont see the point of the change.- Tendarian

As far as that goes, stop being lazy about your hunting and it won't be such a pain in the ass. The whole point of OHC'ing was to take away overkill, while the caster sat back and played PS2 or surfed for porn without a fear of being touched by the critter, and pures, being the Wile. E. Coyotes that they are, found a way around it.

Well, they're just remedying something that should have been corrected a couple of years ago when OHC'ing was introduced. Sheesh, I had a 20th train, tripped in spells sorcerer at the time and now he's a complete waste, and I'm not complaining about it.

Just a retort, not a rant so don't take offense to anything I've said.

[Tendarian]

Some of us Wile E Coyotes like being lazy though. I dont think its that big of a change really as you can still cast normally. My main character is a square anyway so it doesnt affect me much. Ive just been enjoying my cleric lately and watching his 50 damage on 103 rolls sometimes :)

[Zir]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Some of us Wile E Coyotes like being lazy though. I dont think its that big of a change really as you can still cast normally. My main character is a square anyway so it doesnt affect me much. Ive just been enjoying my cleric lately and watching his 50 damage on 103 rolls sometimes :)

Remember when Mana Disrupt used to do that before it got neutered? Good times ::sighs::

[Zentoph]

Am I wrong in assuming that being in stance offensive increases the damage from OHC?

Currently, when I hunt, I OHC and stance dance from defensive to offensive. I don't use any macros to take my weapon out or anything, I stay one handed the whole hunt, unless I pick something up. I rarely get hit when I'm in stance offensive, but now it sounds like I'm going to get hit a lot more. Currently, it's usually death when I get caught in offensive.

What a bullshit change. Currently, I do nothing to abuse the mechanics, yet I still get hindered.. Ugh.

[GuildRat]

What a bullshit change. Currently, I do nothing to abuse the mechanics, yet I still get hindered.. Ugh.


You're not going to get whomped any more often than you do now. The complaint seems to be that the people that WERE using mechanics to their advantage(I refuse to say ABUSE)are upset that SIMU finally got around to changing it to work the way it was supposed to originally.

The big difference is going to be the "hard RT" of 3 seconds, where you're going to be just like a square or semi. But, that's only if you use channel instead of cast.

Pures are going to have to use a little strategy while hunting, imagine that!!:o

[AnticorRifling]

It's no different then the applied changes to armor and RT. Folks used to wear plate, let the critter swing, remove plate, cast, wear plate all in the matter of a second. Same thing here.

[GuildRat]

yea....that was too funny to see a cleric running around in full plate...or a wizard removing it to cast mass spells in TSSW..AHAHAHAHAHA!!

[Warriorbird]

"Hunt bonespear and talk about stance dancing... critters walk in and swing instantaniouly how do you stance dance that?
"

Gosh. Warriors and Rogues and Rangers and Bards have been managing it for years.

I thought you were The Edine? Suck it up...it now has actual risk associated.

[Trinitis]

This change don't bother me much, but I *can* see why the pures get upset about it. Before, we had to go to stance o, without a weapon to do our max damage, thats a step beyond a pure (they getta keep their weapon out), but our saving grace was that we could prep..wait for the right time, strike and go quickly back to defence. The pures can wait, strike, and go back to defence, but if they don't make it, they have redux. Pures, do not. We will now have a 3 second window to die. Because if we get hit, we don't live.

-Adredrin

[StrayRogue]

That only neuters you if you are stupid. All weapon slinging professions have been doing this for 15 years with 5 seconds MINIMUM rts.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Except now you have the same RT when using your Combat Maneuver skills like shadow mastery. You showed us a log yourself.

This affects me in a negative way as well. I am a Brawling sorcerer, I have been for some time. I dont have a weapon in my hand so I lose out on Enchant DS in GS3, but I always get the OHC benefit. This was the path we were supposed to take to get OHC advantages. Because people abused it, I must now be forced into 3 seconds of hard RT in offensive.

I know what you squares are saying, boo-hoo we do this all the time. I say remember when squares really sucked? You know, before redux? Thats us now, without the benefit of even heavy armor. Defensive spells you say? Have you seen a pures DS in offensive/advancing in GS4? Its laughable. I cant even imagine how pathetic it would be if I used a sword over brawling, which BTW cost more to train in.

Is it really that big of a deal? No. I can still just CAST instead of CHANNEL the spell with alot less potency when I feel a risk.

Its a shame people had to abuse macros to hunt so bad they had to punish us. Laugh it up, all it does is add more tedium to hunting, which is already tedious enough.

[StrayRogue]

Except now you have the same RT when using your Combat Maneuver skills like shadow mastery. You showed us a log yourself.[i]

I can use it twice a hunt. It costs 30 stamina points, out of my maximum of 60.

[i]This affects me in a negative way as well. I am a Brawling sorcerer, I have been for some time. I dont have a weapon in my hand so I lose out on Enchant DS in GS3, but I always get the OHC benefit. This was the path we were supposed to take to get OHC advantages. Because people abused it, I must now be forced into 3 seconds of hard RT in offensive.

So you NEVER used macro's while OHCing?

I know what you squares are saying, boo-hoo we do this all the time. I say remember when squares really sucked? You know, before redux? Thats us now, without the benefit of even heavy armor. Defensive spells you say? Have you seen a pures DS in offensive/advancing in GS4? Its laughable. I cant even imagine how pathetic it would be if I used a sword over brawling, which BTW cost more to train in.

I'll believe that when sorcerer's aren't the easiest profession to hunt.

[Edited on 16-11-03 by StrayRogue]

[Dighn Darkbeam]

So you NEVER used macro's while OHCing? >>

No. Just to get to the hunting area and back. Like I said and you seem to agree, its cheating.

I can use it twice a hunt. It costs 30 stamina points, out of my maximum of 60. >>

Your telling me you could not design a viable character that at my level (56) couldnt use the skill effectively throughout his hunt to lower is RT? People were raving about the skill before, it obviously must be useful.

I'll believe that when sorcerer's aren't the easiest profession to hunt. >>

Your saying a rogue is hard to hunt? I have more faith in you than that, and I dont even know you.

[Edited on 11-16-2003 by Dighn Darkbeam]

[StrayRogue]

No they aren't, but its alot more dangerous to hunt, a hell of a lot more dangerous. Sorcerer's can effectively remain in one stance.

The problem wasn't abuse. The problem was people just macroing, something that everyone does pretty much, and being able to change stances instantly, effectively making the risk next to nothing. People can and do easily hunt with 702 the old style way as well. You are hardly crippled here.

But then whining and sorcerer's are one in the same thing right?

[Dighn Darkbeam]

But then whining and sorcerer's are one in the same thing right? >>

Im not getting into this again. You whine more about sorcerers whining than we whine about being sorcerers.

[StrayRogue]

Could careless about sorcerer's to be honest. I suppose it IS sad I could nail any one of you folks within 50 levels, maybe THAT is something to whine about *shrug*

[Dighn Darkbeam]

No, youd just bitch about it. Just kidding man. Enjoy these times, for they are yours.

[StrayRogue]

I'll agree with that, yes. Wait until a manager who isn't square orientated comes along ;)

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"Hunt bonespear and talk about stance dancing... critters walk in and swing instantaniouly how do you stance dance that?
"

Gosh. Warriors and Rogues and Rangers and Bards have been managing it for years.

I thought you were The Edine? Suck it up...it now has actual risk associated.

you also have higher Defences than everyone else as well as redux

problem is Sorcs have an alteritive to 702 they very rarely use it to hunt...
I only have one spell to hunt with and that is 302 I dont have an alternitive spell that i can stay in defence with like DC or implosion

[Betheny]

I never went offensive to cast anyway, it doesn't affect me at all, if I return.

[Tendarian]

I cant wait til quick reply comes back! Now on to the topic,clerics dont have anything great like implosion or anything but in gs4 they will have the option of doubling spell aim and using 306 heh. I know its not great,but its better than nothing.

[GuildRat]

problem is Sorcs have an alteritive to 702 they very rarely use it to hunt... I only have one spell to hunt with and that is 302 I dont have an alternitive spell that i can stay in defence with like DC or implosion

- The Edine

I gotta call bool on that one, clerics have 214,technically it's not offensive, but effective nonetheless, and 110 at their fingertips to use. Hell, the clerics that hunt Skull Temple use 110 on dogmatists because they ward clerics so high.

Technically, you have 4 or more spells to hunt undead at your disposal.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here, just reminding you that clerics are in no way weak and defenseless.

[Sean]

mana costs are way to restrictive in my opinion for what your suggestiong becuase of compression and the fact that your warding rates are significantly reduced is a huge factor.

in order to make 214 effect you essentially have to use 212 unless you train heavily in the major sphere and then your not casting 302 anyway so its a moot point. 110 same thing you really cant use it effectively its not a 10 mana spell the rate of sucess makes the cost much much more and again you have to train heavily in the minor sphere to change this which effects your use of 302.

the only reason i say this is because in gs3 when i hunted illoke, which fall on you if they arent on the ground, i used 110 and 302 to hunt but you could ward things much better in 3 so your mana pool wanted as big a factor. in gs4 this changes alot to where i can no longer count on 110 especially if iwant to complete the hunt i have to hope things just dont fall on me and go all out 302.

Originally posted by GuildRat


problem is Sorcs have an alteritive to 702 they very rarely use it to hunt... I only have one spell to hunt with and that is 302 I dont have an alternitive spell that i can stay in defence with like DC or implosion

- The Edine

I gotta call bool on that one, clerics have 214,technically it's not offensive, but effective nonetheless, and 110 at their fingertips to use. Hell, the clerics that hunt Skull Temple use 110 on dogmatists because they ward clerics so high.

Technically, you have 4 or more spells to hunt undead at your disposal.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here, just reminding you that clerics are in no way weak and defenseless.

you know little of what it takes to hunt as a cleric if you think that especialy in gs4 at the stage I am i can not hunt anything effectively without 302 in gs4 it goes the same.

[GuildRat]

I know something of hunting a cleric, but mine's younger than you are in game and designed to swing. At 23 he swings at 274 (that's with a white crystal or sending for strength)and never casts while hunting unless it's to refresh his spells. Plus he's in brig...

As far as GS4 goes, you're right, I haven't experimented much with him yet and don't plan on it till it goes live. But to say that you've lost effectiveness as a hunter?
C'mon...you're The Edine, right? Perfect in every way...to say that you're going to have problems is to admit a flaw is it not?

---nudge

[StrayRogue]

Anyone who says the changes to OHC will effect how their clerics hunt dramatically is talking bull. There are other spells and other techniques available. 111, holy bolt spring to mind. As Maimara said, you don't >need< to be OHC to be any good either.

[Sean]

actually strayrogue it effects my hunting alot. until you know how i hunt your talking out of your ass.

i hunt in stance offensive with an open hand to get my maximum potential. i do think in 3 and i intended to do it in 4. giving me hard RT effects my ability to stance back which makes training in brawling worthless in my opinion. this change has a major impact on my character and will make me rethink my training.

[StrayRogue]

Then rethink your training moron. The point is it in NO WAY stops you getting to the cap or a high level. Proof = Maimara. 3 seconds is nothing either. You will have a higher offensive DS than most squares of your level who will have to suffer 5 seconds or more of hard RT just to hunt.

Personally you remind me of sorcs of old who hunted only with 719 then moaned when that got nerfed. Over specialize and you breed in weakness.

[GuildRat]

Reallocation is our friend, Tijay.:smilegrin:

[Sean]

i just said i was gonna rethink my training jackass but to say it doesnt dramatically effect my hunt is WRONG.

[StrayRogue]

Hardly at all when the goal is exactly the same. It simply means you will have to think tactically from now on if you wish to still use OHC. Pures are finally become a non-idiot profession.

hey strayrogue dumb fuck (had to get into the name calling)
111
306
are still usless spells for clerics in GS4 as well as gs3
I even though I doubble can not come close to hitting a like aged critter with it
and suprise 90% of clerics are Giantmen
and we lose a lot of our casting abilities because of that

try again when you know what you are talking about thank you.

[Edaarin]

Hunting once you get past level 50 isn't exactly a cakewalk Stay. It's not just prep 702, cast kiramon anymore. You gotta take into account critter timing, having something walk in on you and instantly swinging, maneuvers, etc.

If you think people aren't going to complain about having to completely change the way they go about hunting, then you're either naive or stupid. It's labeled Mechanics Complaints for a reason.

And yeah, pures have a higher DS. My sorc gets absolutely SHREDDED on a 150 end roll. My rogue or warrior can take a 500 end roll from a flamberge can walk away with a minor.

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by Edaarin]

[StrayRogue]

Erm, no they are not useless by any stretch. Let me remind you that 102 no longer reduces bolt AS you retard. So lets see, you could 110 or bind them, then blast them with 111 or Bolt. Or wait until they swing (hey a novel fucking suggestion), then bolt. Or a whole other fucking number of combinations. If you think this change fucks up your character Edine, by all means leave. The game will be a happier place with less incompetents.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Hunting once you get past level 50 isn't exactly a cakewalk Stay. It's not just prep 702, cast kiramon anymore. You gotta take into account critter timing, having something walk in on you and instantly swinging, maneuvers, etc.

If you think people aren't going to complain about having to completely change the way they go about hunting, then you're either naive or stupid. It's labeled Mechanics Complaints for a reason.

And yeah, pures have a higher DS. My sorc gets absolutely SHREDDED on a 150 end roll. My rogue or warrior can take a 500 end roll from a flamberge can walk away with a minor.

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by Edaarin]

Believe me Edaarin, hunting a sorcerer is easy. Even past 50. I'd say Clerics are easier. I'll quote Maim and say, "what other profession could go from 0 to 72 in less than a year?".

[Edaarin]

Okay. I'll ask you this then. Have you ever taken a sorceror hunting? How can you POSSIBLY know how hard or easy it is to hunt? On the say so of someone that doesn't even really play anymore?

And hunting with 111 isn't exactly mana economic. Binding something, and then having to lob 2 or 3 fireballs to kill it? That'll burn a quarter to a third of your mana. Not exactly good hunting strategy.

[StrayRogue]

Yep I have. For quite a number of levels here as well. We are talking 70+

As for mana intensity, it depends on how you select your spells. Bind and then a shot can be effective with the mana. Personally if I wasn't going to use 302 anyway, even without OHC, I'd use Holy Bolt in offensive once, hopefully going for the stun. If I stunned, I'd stow my weapon then belt it with 302. Easy.

With such a spell list, the combinations are near endless. I am ALL for the one spell professions to being fucked up the ass like this. It happened to the Sorcerers a while back (in regards to 719 and later 702), and they still find progressment easy, I am sure the legions of giantmen clerics will do too.

[Sean]

things changed alot since you could go from 0-72 in under a year ... repel isnt repel .. and in gs4 there is no exp benfit to meditating

[StrayRogue]

Well I'll make a deal with you: When Joe AveragePlayer can't hunt his giantman cleric, the peak of GS stereotype, I will take back what I said about "this will change nothing".

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Erm, no they are not useless by any stretch. Let me remind you that 102 no longer reduces bolt AS you retard. So lets see, you could 110 or bind them, then blast them with 111 or Bolt. Or wait until they swing (hey a novel fucking suggestion), then bolt. Or a whole other fucking number of combinations. If you think this change fucks up your character Edine, by all means leave. The game will be a happier place with less incompetents.

yes lets us do the math... and i will do it using the least amount possible...

110 the critter let it fall down
306 the critter
thats 16 mana from the start
you know you will not kill it on the first shot 80% of the time so lets just say we do 2 shots of it
thats 23 mana per critter...
and with say Edine in gs4 who has 184 mana
that is under 10 critters
and not considering how much more it would take to kill the average critter if you get a bad roll
Do you have any characters that are old stray rogue you sound very ignorant on this subject

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by The Edine]

[StrayRogue]

Thanks for reminding me of exactly what I just said.

[Sean]

I never said unhuntable .. unviable .. or anything of the sort .. i said it will drastically effect my hunting style and methods.

this does make a big difference to my character.

and just for the record edaarin can generate a better DS then me in stnace off and hunt with a 3 second ambush rt and has redux and heavy armor if you wanna make comparisons about mindless hunting and squares being stuck in rt.

[StrayRogue]

184 mana is plenty. You forgot that Mana Control now gives you extra mana per pulse. As a cleric you should be atleast doubled. Isn't ten like level kills a fry as well? I think it is. How about this then: Holy Bolt + 302. Easy. Hell, why not be the same boring gimp as forever and just 302?

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tijay
I never said unhuntable .. unviable .. or anything of the sort .. i said it will drastically effect my hunting style and methods.

this does make a big difference to my character.

and just for the record edaarin can generate a better DS then me in stnace off and hunt with a 3 second ambush rt and has redux and heavy armor if you wanna make comparisons about mindless hunting and squares being stuck in rt.

In GS4, no he will not. I doubt he will be able to fry with qshot. Unless he triples hide, he won't be inplate, or atleast won't be hiding very well. As for his DS, how you fuck up your characters training, is your own problem.

[Sean]

ever tried hunting illoke with just 111 and 306?

Originally posted by StrayRogue
184 mana is plenty. You forgot that Mana Control now gives you extra mana per pulse. As a cleric you should be atleast doubled. Isn't ten like level kills a fry as well? I think it is. How about this then: Holy Bolt + 302. Easy. Hell, why not be the same boring gimp as forever and just 302?

answer me how old is your oldest character and is it a magic user
do you have any characters over 50 trains
and are they magic users

[Sean]

Originally posted by StrayRogue

Originally posted by Tijay
I never said unhuntable .. unviable .. or anything of the sort .. i said it will drastically effect my hunting style and methods.

this does make a big difference to my character.

and just for the record edaarin can generate a better DS then me in stnace off and hunt with a 3 second ambush rt and has redux and heavy armor if you wanna make comparisons about mindless hunting and squares being stuck in rt.

In GS4, no he will not. I doubt he will be able to fry with qshot. Unless he triples hide, he won't be inplate, or atleast won't be hiding very well. As for his DS, how you fuck up your characters training, is your own problem.

you realize its easy to hunt with a dagger or short sword in 4? and they give 3-4 second rts for ambushing right? this has nothign to do with qstrike

my character also has all of his spells maximized for DS and is a cleric fully 1xed in shield use ... 3x dodge is your friend

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by Tijay]

[StrayRogue]

I don't think anyone in GS3 has no. Thats not the point. Want me to re-spell what I said? 302 is not the only spell a cleric can use to hunt effectively. If it is to you, I am glad your hunting is "crippled".

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by The Edine

Originally posted by StrayRogue
184 mana is plenty. You forgot that Mana Control now gives you extra mana per pulse. As a cleric you should be atleast doubled. Isn't ten like level kills a fry as well? I think it is. How about this then: Holy Bolt + 302. Easy. Hell, why not be the same boring gimp as forever and just 302?

answer me how old is your oldest character and is it a magic user
do you have any characters over 50 trains
and are they magic users

Stay prior to rerolling was a lvl 54 warrior.
Oldest character I have played is a lvl 76 sorcerer.

Originally posted by StrayRogue

Originally posted by The Edine

Originally posted by StrayRogue
184 mana is plenty. You forgot that Mana Control now gives you extra mana per pulse. As a cleric you should be atleast doubled. Isn't ten like level kills a fry as well? I think it is. How about this then: Holy Bolt + 302. Easy. Hell, why not be the same boring gimp as forever and just 302?

answer me how old is your oldest character and is it a magic user
do you have any characters over 50 trains
and are they magic users

Stay prior to rerolling was a lvl 54 warrior.
Oldest character I have played is a lvl 76 sorcerer.


now have you played a character that is a cleric of 70 trains
and how long ago did you play this sorcerer on a regular basis? and hunt it

[StrayRogue]

You realize no matter what pures will have the quickest rts of all professions? You are moaning about three seconds hard rt. Again, if this fucks you up, you obviously arent the best hunter.

[StrayRogue]

I played that sorcerer about...a month ago? The account is frozen at the moment, I stopped that when all the billing issues came up.

As for a cleric, not a lvl 70 no. Are you saying 302 is your only way to hunt? Are you saying 3 seconds rt will stop you being able to hunt?

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I played that sorcerer about...a month ago? The account is frozen at the moment, I stopped that when all the billing issues came up.

As for a cleric, not a lvl 70 no. Are you saying 302 is your only way to hunt? Are you saying 3 seconds rt will stop you being able to hunt?

Yes and well yes
without dieing on a regular basis yes.
and with DR points being added into the mix it will take a very very long time to train. if you have any questions i would be glad to show you in gs4
how edine poor 111 and 306 work with Edine even though he is traied to be the best with both that he can be.

[StrayRogue]

What race and level is Edine?

[GuildRat]

You gesture at a krolvin mercenary.
CS: +123 - TD: +51 + CvA: +9 + d100: +79 == +160
Warding failed!
A most painful blow.
... 10 points of damage!
Light blow to back.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a krolvin mercenary.
CS: +123 - TD: +51 + CvA: +9 + d100: +34 == +115
Warding failed!
Target staggered by strong strike.
... 7 points of damage!
Blow grazes right leg.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a krolvin mercenary.
CS: +123 - TD: +51 + CvA: +9 + d100: +91 == +172
Warding failed!
Massive internal disruption.
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to right arm!
The krolvin mercenary falls to the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

3 casts, 37 points of raw damage...no crits= dead mercenary...how fair is that?

Hell my rogue swinging over 420 taking a leg doesn't kill a merc with 100 raw damage.

How fair is that?

[StrayRogue]

Depending on what type of critter you are hunting, it will determine how you hunt. There is a huge difference between casters and swingers, something most pures don't really feel until the late levels. Another difference which effects Clerics especially, is if he/she hunts undead.

Now if you want to go the Bolting Vs Undead route, I suggest you tank Religion lore, 2x it and be atleast at your level in cleric spells. I'd hunt in one of two ways with this spell: *note this is against Undead swingers.
Blind the target. Hopefully it will now be stunned and kneeling.
Failing this, go straight to...
306 it. If step 1 failed, wait for it to swing, then cast.

Finish off at your leisure using normal 302, more 306, swinging, whatever. Holding (301) could also be an option.

Or, you could tank your blessing lores and go the swinging route.

Or keep 302ing. Just make sure there is nothing in the room other than the target. If there is, stun or disable it using holding, bind, blind, unbalance etc.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by GuildRat


3 casts, 37 points of raw damage...no crits= dead mercenary...how fair is that?

Hell my rogue swinging over 420 taking a leg doesn't kill a merc with 100 raw damage.

How fair is that?

Thanks for that Guildrat. For some reason I think people don't realize that like 702, 302 is entirely usable even when in defensive with a weapon out.

[GuildRat]

That was my sorc open handed...but still 37 points of raw damage?

[StrayRogue]

Its all hidden damage with 302. Lemme see if I can find the table...

[Sean]

i tell you when when i kill critters like this with my 302 in off with my hard RT ill agree with you

>amb work right eye
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a dagger at a kiramon worker!
AS: +288 vs DS: +148 with AvD: +9 + d100 roll: +43 = +192
... and hit for 39 points of damage!
Slash to head destroys the kiramon worker's right eye!
Doesn't do its brain any good either.
The kiramon worker falls back into a heap and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

[StrayRogue]

Yeah because hunting is EXACTLY like that ever single critter in GS4, yeah. :rolleyes:

holding 301 is 1\2 critters age in mana
upto 25 mana
not worth while

[Sean]

no but im fairly consistant doing it at like level with a dagger in 4 seconds of rt

[GuildRat]

Agree or disagree, if the rogue had parried, he's standing there, ass in the wind in offensive.

Raw damage has nothing to do with whether or not I kill a critter if I hit the wrong spot with my rogue. Heaven forbid I parry against a black forest ogre, I'll probably end up in the next room with a minor, a 5 round stun, and 5 other critters that are more than happy to send me to see Lorminstra, and I don't even like the wench.

Unlike you...I have to lay there and take 5 or 6 hits before I get to sigh in relief that death has finally come.

[StrayRogue]

Try it against something in plate. Or something that does something other than just attack. Kiramon are just like lvl 40 rats.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by GuildRat
Agree or disagree, if the rogue had parried, he's standing there, ass in the wind in offensive.

Raw damage has nothing to do with whether or not I kill a critter if I hit the wrong spot with my rogue. Heaven forbid I parry against a black forest ogre, I'll probably end up in the next room with a minor, a 5 round stun, and 5 other critters that are more than happy to send me to see Lorminstra, and I don't even like the wench.

Unlike you...I have to lay there and take 5 or 6 hits before I get to sigh in relief that death has finally come.

Again, the clarity of someone who isn't still at his computer at 4:36 in the morning ;)

[Sean]

are you telling me theres no risk for a caster already hunting ogres that i also need to be stuck in offensive? because i think we both know its not true

[StrayRogue]

No, I dont think he's saying that. I think he's saying you have less risk being caught in offensive because of spell casting than a rogue is from swinging. How ogres maim and kill each of the professions is not the point here.

[GuildRat]

I'm simply saying this Tijay, you're not as vunerable if you fumble a cast as I am if I parry an ambush. Black Forest Ogres have a 5 second RT, boars and vipers 7.
You as a caster have to worry about the CM based attacks, but they comprise maybe 1/10th of the forest's attacks.

Me, being in half-plate, I have a significant maneuver penalty and I get hit with venom and charges as much as the next guy...but I'm 15 trains under ogres and such.

Your DS in guarded allows you to hunt without worrying so much about the physical aspect of hunting. Mine does not, and it has taught me to use tactics.

BTW, I always hunt alone as it seems to be easier on me and works better in my strategies.

[Edaarin]

For record's sake, here is Edaarin at level 61 in the test game (stance offensive with signs up). I 2x dodged, because anything more than that is a waste (and yes, while using ranged I'm generating roughly +27 DS over 2x shield/1x dodge, which ironically generates better DS than 2x dodge and 1x shield, while also saving me 4 MTP's per level and doesn't bank as much on encumberance for DS).

AS: 353 with a 4x
DS: 317 with 5x double chain, self spelled (401, 406)
Qstrike: 3 seconds with an axe, most of the time maiming/killing critter in question.

I can't log on right now to post log of hunts, because shortly after the snapshot my character got corrupted. And daggers are far from unviable if you pick the right creature, and if I snipe with strength up, I can uphunt in Wyneb without a problem.

[StrayRogue]

How many times a hunt can you qstrike?

[Edaarin]

Sorry, that should be 287, was in a place with spirit fog up.

EDIT: With short swords, daggers, rapiers, I can whip off 7 qstrikes in under a minute. With the axe, 3 or 4. And it recovers roughly 30% per minute.

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by Edaarin]

[Sean]

im gonna bow out of this discussion at this time because its pretty clear to me neither side is going to budge on their stance. my initial post in this thread was no to say that there shouldnt have been something done to balance the situation out i just do no happen to think a hard rt is the right answer. especially considering most manuver attacks because popular in hunting grounds to help kill pures hunting in guarded.

if you really felt they needed to downtweak open hand casting bonuses like they did then well i dunno what to say.

do i think everyone will adapt and it will eventually blow over? of course i do...

but just to repeat my inital post this change does however drastically change some hunting styles, specifically mine. but after further testing ill get over it but it will never be the right mechanical choice in my mind.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

What I dont understand is how is a sorcerer/cleric using a macro to bounce to offensive and cast any different from a wizard bouncing into offensive and casting?

[GuildRat]

I'm the same train as Edaarin and with an axe I can qstrike 4 times as I have 82 stamina and it costs 20 per strike. With a dagger I can qstrike 8 times at 10 stamina per, and as Edaarin says, daggers aren't viable at higher trains because of the armors and spells that critters wear.

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by GuildRat]

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Sorry, that should be 287, was in a place with spirit fog up.

EDIT: With short swords, daggers, rapiers, I can whip off 7 qstrikes in under a minute. With the axe, 3 or 4. And it recovers roughly 30% per minute.

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by Edaarin]

No I mean how many times can you do it before you have expended your Stamina points.

[Edaarin]

See post above. I have 72-73 stamina points. Qstrike with the lighter weapons costs 10, with axe 20, with heavy weapons 30-40

[EmpressBtch]

Yeah, hi. I'm fully singled in CM and a cleric. I get my ass kicked in ogres and I have more trains than them. Getting stuck in offensive by a swift kick sucks....solution...avoid hunting ogres. Less risk yes...the down side of you getting redux it takes you longer to die, I just get a swifter death.

I chose to move from the swinger to the caster with my cleric....because lets face it 1x weapon and 1x CM I'm never going to hit hard enough to do any real damage to anything I can hunt now. Never hunted open handed, never had any desire to. The stuff I'm hunting now hits hard and multi-strikes. I'm nuts, not suicidal. So just cope with what the hell ever comes along and adjust, stop whining.

The way I'm seeing it is this, we all get the same chance to die now.

[StrayRogue]

So you can hardly do it every single kill, which is my point.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by EmpressBtch
So just cope with what the hell ever comes along and adjust, stop whining.

The way I'm seeing it is this, we all get the same chance to die now.

Words to live by.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

So you can hardly do it every single kill, which is my point. >>

Just like at 18 mana a pop we cant implode at every kill. Do you need three second swings every time? Seems like you just need the first strike to stun and then finish up if needed. Remember, Stamina comes back just as fast as mana does.

Using this new Cast/Channel system will in the end make even the most skilled of hunters take longer to hunt. Is this the end of the world? No. Do we have the right to bitch? Sure. I dont see how this adds to the enjoyment of the game for any pure.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Dighn Darkbeam
So you can hardly do it every single kill, which is my point. >>

Just like at 18 mana a pop we cant implode at every kill. Do you need three second swings every time? Seems like you just need the first strike to stun and then finish up if needed. Remember, Stamina comes back just as fast as mana does.

Using this new Cast/Channel system will in the end make even the most skilled of hunters take longer to hunt. Is this the end of the world? No. Do we have the right to bitch? Sure. I dont see how this adds to the enjoyment of the game for any pure.

I think it makes the risk more apparent. The entire point of offensive OHC casting was to vastly increase the damage while being balanced with risk. That risk was not being seen at all due to macroing. It will be now.

[GuildRat]

Does anyone other than me remember when sorcerers could go 702 50 critters, then ring/fog to TSC and wait for someone else to finish the critters off?

Same principle in action here, Simu's just fixing something that needed fixing a long time ago.

[Edaarin]

So yeah, my numbers were a little off. Sorry.

The following is done with +12 brigandine, +25 buckler, +20 crossbow in stance offensive with 401 and 406 up

With 2x dodge/ranged DS:
AS: 359
DS: 287

With 2x dodge/1x shield
DS: 239

With 1x dodge/2x shield
DS: 251

Not only is my DS higher, I'm saving enough TP's doing 2x shield and 1x dodge to pick up 4 more spells. Absolutely ridiculous.

[GuildRat]

Damn ya crazy asian...ya gonna go crossbow on me?

[Edaarin]

1 correction: qstrike with axe is 2 seconds. And I get the DS drop if I do it from hiding.

Hm. May have found an incarnation of Edaarin that I like...

Edged AS: 356
Ranged AS: 378 (5x bow, ebladed master arrows)
Ranged DS Offensive: 253
Ranged Bolt DS: 460
Ranged DS Defensive: 415
Shield DS Offensive: 256
Shield Bolt DS: 344
Shield DS Defensive: 429

Heh, 14 spells.

[GuildRat]

Egads man!!! You'll have no...zip...nada redux with all those spells.

This is coming from a rogue that had 22 spells before reallocation....so don't mind me.

[StrayRogue]

He'll have some redux. I have 6 spells at 30 and still have redux in GS4. Keep up that PT training ;)

[GuildRat]

Yea, but I'm loving that 73% redux...comes in handy with no spells and in offensive....I'll need to log into IV and let an Illoke wail on me...but it's sweet.

[StrayRogue]

I thought GS4 redux was getting capped at about 50%?

[GuildRat]

Well, no idea....that's in III.....like I said, I'll have to log in and let Illoke wail on me.

BTW I'm in half-plate in IV, so that makes a difference.

[Edaarin]

Edaarin in GSIII is next to godly. Except with warding, heh.

xxxxxxxx swings a vultite claidhmore at you!
AS: +530 vs DS: +146 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +88 = +501
... and hits for 43 points of damage!
Deft slash to your left leg digs deep!
Bone is chipped!
You are stunned for 3 rounds!

[StrayRogue]

Claidhs versus Plate suck.

[Edaarin]

In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a muscular supplicant engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A muscular supplicant swings a dark steel flamberge at you!
AS: +487 vs DS: +70 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +22 = +465
... and hits for 26 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on your chest!

A muscular supplicant swings a dark steel flamberge at you!
AS: +487 vs DS: +70 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +70 = +513
... and hits for 25 points of damage!
Deft slash across chest draws blood!
You take a deep breath.

A muscular supplicant swings a dark steel flamberge at you!
AS: +487 vs DS: +70 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +96 = +539
... and hits for 30 points of damage!
You hear a buzzing in your ears from that blow!

A muscular supplicant swings a dark steel flamberge at you!
AS: +487 vs DS: +70 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +11 = +454
... and hits for 27 points of damage!
Slash to your shield arm!
Shears off a thin layer of skin!

A muscular supplicant swings a dark steel flamberge at you!
AS: +487 vs DS: +70 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +19 = +462
... and hits for 31 points of damage!
Smash to the kneecap.

[GuildRat]

Boomsplat leaps from hiding to attack!
Boomsplat swings a leaf-bladed dagger at Edaarin!
AS: +649 vs DS: +156 with AvD: -18 + d100 roll: +36 = +511
... and hits for 7 points of damage!
Thrust glances off Edaarin's knee.

That was funny as hell.....as...
Boomsplat stupidly says, "Well damn'ums.

[StrayRogue]

Who do you play GuildRat?

[GuildRat]

Who? As in IG?

[StrayRogue]

Yeah.

[Trinitis]

as a total side note, I'd like to say that I spent nearly 20 min in the same room as Stay today, and he still don't know who I am. bwahaha

-Adredrin. The rogue is about.

[GuildRat]

I play Kyal, the Scoundrel....fun lover extrordinaire

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
as a total side note, I'd like to say that I spent nearly 20 min in the same room as Stay today, and he still don't know who I am. bwahaha

-Adredrin. The rogue is about.

I hate you. Was it in the guild?

[Trinitis]

Heh, nope, My rogue is not of guild age yet ;) Soon though!

-Adredrin

[GuildRat]

You hate me? I'm a bastard in the guild...always yappin at people to get bac k to work. ::snicker::

[StrayRogue]

Not you guildrat. Adredrin for being so smug and StrayRogue. I am guessing it must have been TC of Mule. I don't really stand anywhere else.

[Edited on 8-20-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Trinitis]

Yep, it was in TC :P

-Adredrin

[StrayRogue]

I shall find you. Then kill your mother.

[Trinitis]

Heh, my rogue has no mother, and if he did, He woulda slit her neck years ago for a wooden nickle :P

-Adredrin

[GuildRat]

Damn, I've made alot of enemies, but none in the guild as yet. I'll help anyone who's willing to help themselves. Even ex-whores that need a hand training.

BTW...post a reply if ya want woomin....

[Askip]

<< Am I wrong in assuming that being in stance offensive increases the damage from OHC? >>

No, you are not wrong. :D

[Moist Happenings]

I hunt with implode anyway. Yay me! :)

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Happy hunting at 18 mana a pop. 16 if you 3x mana share. It takes an average 1.5 implosions to kill a like leveled creature during a hunt. Thats with 2x spell aiming as well. Usually no treasure, no skins. Implosion hunting is still viable, just now your forced to use a certain gift not from the Arkati and sacrifice during a hunt. Most likely also need to find especially squishy higher level creatures.

What fun is that?

[Moist Happenings]

Eh, I did just fine under my own mana in Illoke on the beta. 2x harness, 2.5x mana share, sacrifice one critter and I fry easy. with 271 mana and sign wracking(which I didn't have to use, by the way) it's the easiest way to do it. And I ended up with about half the critters making corpses.

[Moist Happenings]

As a side note, stun, DC worked well too. With the extra CS given to me by my extra magic training from being staves, Like level creatures(at least Illoke and mastiffs) have a 6 fail when I get a roll of 1. So they never get a chance to hit me.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

It seems with Staff training pushes people into implosion hunting. With all those magical ranks you have the nominal casting cost for implosion at full power. You also do not have OHC with the staff, which makes mana disruption not worth the time if the creature has heavy armor or doesnt stun well.

Seems your best bet would be to either mild jolt and implode, or disintegrate and implode. Because of ranks DC is also an option.

I dont care for the whole magical staff system at all. It forces us to hunt like all these squares say we do. Never leave guarded, use cheap spells.

Some actually enjoy the thrill of battle and killing with style and tactics.

[Quitter]

Gs is going to be that EVERY little extra you want, you'll pay GREATLY


I remember someone saying that dodging a bolt with a claidhmore was stupid, well, dodging with a door made of iron is too

[Moist Happenings]

Actually, to tell you the truth, the most mana effective way i've found to hunt(if you have some necromancy ranks anyway) is to stun and pain inflict. 3 shots of it and the thing is dead. 2 shots of it and you can sacrifice. 30 mana to kill 20 mana to gain 80.

So it's been narrowed down to using the following to hunt: 705, 706, 710, 711, 719, and 720..that's uhh..a good chunk of the sorcerer spell list that's usable and viable.

[Moist Happenings]

And why should 702 be the best way to hunt anyway? It costs 2 mana! Do you see wizards running around casting minor shock at everything at level 50+? Not unless it's wearing plate. and by then you can just major shock it anyway, so what's the point?

Sure, 702 is a good way to hunt from 1-30 or so, but after that it goes the way of minor shock(which dies out long before 30, might I add)

[Moist Happenings]

Originally posted by Dighn Darkbeam
It seems with Staff training pushes people into implosion hunting. With all those magical ranks you have the nominal casting cost for implosion at full power. You also do not have OHC with the staff, which makes mana disruption not worth the time if the creature has heavy armor or doesnt stun well.

Seems your best bet would be to either mild jolt and implode, or disintegrate and implode. Because of ranks DC is also an option.

I dont care for the whole magical staff system at all. It forces us to hunt like all these squares say we do. Never leave guarded, use cheap spells.

Some actually enjoy the thrill of battle and killing with style and tactics.

Lastly, switching from OHE to staves didn't change my implosion casting at all. I had the same exact ranks of Mana share and spell aiming both ways. All I added was CS and DS by getting more spells.

[Quitter]

Seriously, empath, cleric, sorcerer are meant to train like a wizard now?

2X spell aim
1.5-2X SR
1-5-2X MIU
1-5-2X MS
2X-3X spells?

[Moist Happenings]

Who says that those skills were strictly wizard skills in the first place?

[Moist Happenings]

If SA was meant only for wizards, they probably would have made the skill more expensive for the other Professions...and...not given them spells or skills that were affected by said skills.

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by Neff]

[Quitter]

Spell aim is/was, when around half your spell circle is bolting spells, but screw it, in gs you're either a bolter, a warder, or a swinger, I'll get it

[Trinitis]

I dono..I'm 64 (83 in GS3) and I use MD all the time. I like it quite a bit. It stuns a good 70%+ of the time on the first cast, and with the hidden damage, its easy to pull off 80-90 Dmg per cast. Its still a very good spell.

-Adredrin

[Moist Happenings]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
I dono..I'm 64 (83 in GS3) and I use MD all the time. I like it quite a bit. It stuns a good 70%+ of the time on the first cast, and with the hidden damage, its easy to pull off 80-90 Dmg per cast. Its still a very good spell.

-Adredrin

Eh, well, you're right. It can be useful at later levels. I just prefer a different route.

But if what you say is true, and it stuns 70%+ of the time first shot, then it should be no problem that you have a 3 second RT for it for that extra damage. If somethin's stunned, then it's not gonna be swinging at ya.

But you have that extra risk of something walking into the room and smacking you. Just like it was originally intended. I think the change is great.

EDIT: Teeheehee. I said swining.

[Edited on 11-17-2003 by Neff]

[Quitter]

So that means that someone WITHOUT a weapon, with his hand would be 3 seconds freezing and waiting in a dangerous position because he channel

but someone with a huge staff or a heavy 10 pounds sword with a wall door of 20 pounds could parry?

man, it's so fucked up.

just 302 till death and MA if you need a mana battery

[Moist Happenings]

Well...if you want to be more defended, then why not cast 302 from guarded? It would act like it used to before OHC was around. OHC is supposed to be an extra risk. That's exactly what this new change makes it. I think it's perfect.

[Quitter]

get a wizard to imbed 515

matter solved

Originally posted by Neff
Well...if you want to be more defended, then why not cast 302 from guarded? It would act like it used to before OHC was around. OHC is supposed to be an extra risk. That's exactly what this new change makes it. I think it's perfect.

OHC has been in effect since 302 was let out

[Moist Happenings]

Originally posted by The Edine
OHC has been in effect since 302 was let out

What do I look like to you, a cleric? :P

My point exactly... thank you for proving it... you argue for a change yet know nothing about the effect it has on a proffesion so sit down and shut up untill you know what you are talking about

[Moist Happenings]

Originally posted by The Edine
My point exactly... thank you for proving it... you argue for a change yet know nothing about the effect it has on a proffesion so sit down and shut up untill you know what you are talking about

Whoa there, calm down, yelly. If you'll take note of most of my posts, I did nothing but argue that it didn't affect SORCERERS enough that it was a bother. And I did believe that there should be a greater risk to do it than to cast normally. As such, I determined that I thought that this change was a good one.

[Moist Happenings]

Additionally, as for the comment I made that DID pertain to clerics, I fail to see how the 302 changes affect you any differently than they effect sorcerer's 702.

So I stand by my point that I believe it's workable, and it's a good change.

302 is our only hunting spell that is the diffrence

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Well...if you want to be more defended, then why not cast 302 from guarded? It would act like it used to before OHC was around. OHC is supposed to be an extra risk. That's exactly what this new change makes it. I think it's perfect. >>

The strength of mana disrupt is less than what it was before. To come near to its old strength your need to be atleast in advanced/forward stance with nothing in your right hand.

When casting in guarded with a weapon out you will be doing significantly less damage then the original spell. True, there are some creatures this will work fine on. These creatures become more and more rare as you proceed in levels. It can still be done, you just have to hunt longer, hence the GM's goal...Attrition hunting.

This change just means a revision of curent tactics and more forced diversification. Sadly in this case diversity does not come by adding new skills, simply limiting our old skills and making us rely on others.

[Moist Happenings]

Originally posted by The Edine
302 is our only hunting spell that is the diffrence

Then you'll either have to expend the extra mana, learn to stance dance, or find another tactic. It seems to me that you're bitching over something relatively small.

"I can't be guaranteed not to be hit anymore. Things might actually become a challenge."

Whatever happened to defensive, let a thing swing, bind it, and whack it with a sword?

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Whatever happened to defensive, let a thing swing, bind it, and whack it with a sword? >>

Sometimes things dont just swing at you. Sometimes they cast call wind, try to guild tackle you, try to kick you into the next room, ect.

Not to defend clerics or anything...

[Moist Happenings]

Well, then there are tactics that can be adapted to work for that too. It's just that 302, and 702, from guarded the whole time essentially was not what the open hand casting what originally intended for.

Originally posted by Dighn Darkbeam
Whatever happened to defensive, let a thing swing, bind it, and whack it with a sword? >>

Sometimes things dont just swing at you. Sometimes they cast call wind, try to guild tackle you, try to kick you into the next room, ect.

Not to defend clerics or anything...

Clerics are PURES we can not swing hard enough to hunt

[Moist Happenings]

I'm a pure. I can hunt with my sword if I want to. But I do seem to remember a lot of clerics back in the day running around in heavy armor with weapons, that they used to hunt. Before 302 came out, that is. So don't tell me it's impossible, because it isn't. There would be no reason for Sancted weapons if clerics weren't intended to be able to use them.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

It could be done. Unbalance for a stun and knockdown, have a good weapon, beat the crap out of creature.

We are talking about GS4 here guys not gs3 diffrent worlds.

[Moist Happenings]

I'm talking about GS4 as well. I haven't had any hunting problems as a Sorcerer.

There just have to be some adaptations for cleric hunting as well. They're no longer invincible. Neither are sorcerers.

my comment was relating to swinging clerics

We lose the advantages that CM gave us in gs3 so a swing cleric... even if critter is bound held stuned laying or whatever will not work.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

E, you will still be able to hunt well enough, it will just be more difficult and tedious. You will need to do regular cast attacks or channel attacks from the highest stance you can risk and wait for a stun to finish off at top damage.

It is true sorcerers have more weapons, as we are a pure hunting profession. Clerics have other great spells, though alot of them do not aid in combat.

You will most likely not be able to take on mobs of creatures anymore as it will be too risky. I see that clerics have been hit the hardest by the change, but you are still viable.

If the E is wishes to still be The Best, he will need to adapt to this loss of power.

The Edine will struggle though it and become a paladin

[Overlord]

LoL dude my little cleric has no issues hutnign 7 trains above his head, 2 handed cleric Zestro. Now i do admit yeah im going paladin in GS4, but i'll miss warding sphere n benediction n zealot damn it. Aha well zealots going anyway so pffft