OOC or actual RP?

[Jolena]

Welp, something has been on my mind for quite some time. Actually..quite a few things have been.. in regards to what is acceptable RP in Gemstone and what is OOC. I was speaking to Stun the other night and after talking with him for some time I decided to go ahead and open this up to talk about. *ducks* I really hope it remains civil but who knows.

1) Should a person's fame, AS/DS in a combat situation, etc. be used by another player to determine whether or not they are older?

The reason I ask this is because so many times I hear "He shouldn't be attacking me because he's older" Or something along those lines. Or "He knew he has 100+ trains on me..he's not a RP'er because he kicked my ass" etc. Nine times out of ten that particular character kicking the ass that is older is reacting to something that has been done to them by another player. Whether that thing is opening their mouth in a negative manner, attacking them, or just glancing at them with an attitude.. the point is.. it's incited. If you the 'character' looked at Jolena.. how would you 'honestly' know whether or not she was higher trained then you? Age is relavent..it's not the amount of 'trains' you have had. So if you saw Jolena who is 30 years old.. and you are say.. a 300 year old elven person.. would you 'really' be able to tell that she's higher or lesser trained then you are? And if so..how? I can't see how typing "fame jolena" or watching her AS/DS #'s when she swings at someone is NOT an OOC way of determining that. With so many stances available it is very easily hid as far as how strong you can swing or cast.
Also.. if you have insulted or attacked someone who happens to be higher trained then you are.. is it really 'mechanics abuse or bad RP skills' if they attack you or use a spell to shut you up simply because they are higher trained? Would that person attacking you in defense 'honestly' know themselves that they are higher trained then you?

I personally think not, and that is what I'd like to discuss and hear your thoughts on.

I am sure there is a lot more I will be bringing up in response to some of your posts on this thread but for now, I will leave it at this juncture. Hope I didn't confuse anyone with how sporatic I posted. I sometimes have difficulty putting into type what I want to say without making it a tad jumbled.

[Scott]

Fame. Is Bobby Fischer a good chess player? Of coarse he is. How do you know that? Have you seen him play, have you met him? No. You know because he is known for it. Well damn, I don't want (insert high level person here) to mess with me because I know he's known as a powerful person.

[Latrinsorm]

People want to RP. It can be well within your RP to stun/sleep/silence someone. However, by doing so, you end the other person's RP. This is a quandry. There is no solution, short of removing silence/stun/sleep, which is not much of a solution.

I remember hearing about some caster who didn't like it how he couldn't hide his age like swingers could because he couldn't stance down his CS. That was funny. And true. However, if I saw someone turn ubertrollmonster into pulp, I could be reasonably sure that they themselves are pretty uber. It's kind of like what the Statistical Sorc's Guide says, that our characters have a fundamental understanding of what the numbers mean without seeing the numbers; they know the "physics" of Elanthia. They are able to tell the difference between a 0 endroll and a -300 endroll. The messaging is not specific enough because it would be impossible/unfeasible to make it so.

So it's not mechanics abuse. It's not even bad RP skills. It is very bad RP etiquette, somewhat akin to the guy in charge of Around the Horn who can mute the other guys so he always gets the last word. Funny? Sure. But not great debating tact.

[Jolena]

See and that's the point I guess I am trying to make. We (in general) really tend to use OOC info to judge whether or not a person has the right to attack us and if it's considered RP or not. However.. if you walked up to Jolena..not only would you not know her name.. you would not know how highly trained she is, and if you saw her swining at a creature, you wouldn't see her AS and DS.. or even how many damage points she did. All you as a character would see is that she took off a leg and that the person is bleeding and stunned. I think it would be nice to see many more people realize that if we honestly rp'd a character as we should since it's a RPG that we wouldn't really know things like we do as characters, we would only know them as players, and it shouldn't affect how we treat others in a RP. It's no different then if you walked up to someone on the streets in RL and you engaged in conversation or some type of activity with them..not knowing them from Adam/Eve.. you would be taking a risk. That person could be sweet, insane, evil, good, psychotic, unstable, a girl scout or a scholar.. you really have no idea. You can look at their clothing, how they carry themselves and try to judge them somewhat but honestly..there is no real way to tell what will happen. However, when you DO engage with them..you take a risk. That same risk applies when you are interacting with others in GS. If that character is a bitch and is always irritable and tends to strike easily.. well then you are probably going to be hurt if you piss them off. Just because they are 100+ trains and you happen to know that through OOC means does not mean your character knows and the risk is still something you took willingly.

[Jolena]

Okay in response to the silence/bind post I will have to say that Stun and I also discussed this last night. He was in a similar situation a few years back. To this day he is not happy about it because he had a bad interaction with a highly trained caster and when Stun said something he didn't like.. (not sure what exactly) the caster silenced and bound him.. because that caster was so highly trained the silence and bind lasted for approximately 2 hours according to Stun. After casting these spells the caster left the area. Stun was angry and I can imagine I would be angry for being made to sit in a room bound and silenced for that long as well. However.. honestly..'how' would that caster know that he or she was 100+ trains over Stun when the spells were cast at him? And wouldn't it be within that person's right as a RP to use silence when someone upsets you with something they say? Isn't that the purpose of the spell? Stun finally said he understood what I was saying and that as a RP the caster would not have any way of knowing that Stun was so much younger and it would have had that length of effect on him. Those are the kind of things I am wanting to discuss. Yes.. now just to clarify, I do think that repeatedly binding/silencing someone over and over just to be a dick is abuse.. however even there, where do you draw the line.. and how is it acceptable?

[Latrinsorm]

Exactly. Exactly. It is WELL within their right as RP.

But I wish to invoke the dismal science and point out a problem called "Smart for one, dumb for all". By RP-ing this way, you (general you) ruin it for everyone (or just one person). This goes beyond the characters. This is about players having fun in a game. It's similar to the discussion on the official boards they had over whether it was good/bad RP to kill a GM-controlled critter. Sure it fits your RP, but you the player should think of other people.

Curiously, MA-ing could be a solution to this problem, because you could RP one account evil and the other good and balance their effects on your targets. So you're cruisin with the bad guy, you stun some fellah into next week and walk away. That's your RP. But as a player you know that's awfully mean, so you bring in the good guy, who someone fixes the situation (I'm not quite up to par on my silence mechanics). Not that I'm suggesting MA-ing.

[Jolena]

Well..I understand how it could ruin someone else's RP to be stunned for 2 hours..however I still think that if you take the risk..well then you pay the price irrigardless. If someone comes along and unstuns you or takes off your silence or bind.. well then yay! You were rescued and owe them a thanks or something like that. However..if noone does.. and you DO spend 2 hours silenced..yeah it sucks, yeah as a player I would be irritated as hell and chain smoke until I got unbound and could speak again..BUT I damn sure bet you I wouldn't be messign with that person again as a character until I felt I could take them. I would also chalk it up to experience and try to learn from it. I mean.. I dunno..I just think that RP in a RPG should be taken seriously and using OOC info to do so is just lame in my opinion.

[Sweets]

It's extremely difficult to go completely mechanics blind in gemstone. It's the way the game is set up. I try to keep all things personal to my character personal. I turn off my profession and do not wear my shield so people can start "assuming". I hate it when I have not introduced myself and someone says my name. I usually just give a flippant "I'm that famous eh?" type response. As for elder characters just flipping off spells or attacking and asking questions later? *winces* It's a fine line isn't it? Rp is for pleasure. I would rather see someone respond in a more creative way to a stupid comment I make ic than just killing of silencing me because "Don't you know who I am!" thing. I am willing to take a licking....but it's abused so often, just like tone, that I can't help but feel it's mechanics abuse in some cases. I know they can't tell if I can fight back or not, I don't give anything away, but is that the point really? Should power be used everytime you don't like what's going on? It may not come out as ooc.....but it's just poor roleplay.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

To address the matter of character assessment:

I believe it is IC to judge a character's strength accurately just by watching them cast or engage a foe in melee battle. I see nothing wrong with Dighn observing someone's skill in battle or their ability to manipulate mana and being able to gauge said character's strength. He is a student of both the martial arts and the arcane, and by comparing the others prowess to his own, he can form an opinion of this person and treat them accordingly.

Stunning/Binding/Ect in roleplay:

If in real life I treated someone obviously stronger then myself in a negative manner, right or wrong, I had better be ready to take the chance this person retaliating to his fullest capabilities.
I believe its no different in Elanthia. Power can be found in the hands of both those deserving, and with complete morons. You still must show respect for someone's power, if not the person themself.

Does this mean let older characters walk all over you? No. Simply understand that if you act in a manner displeasing to someone more powerful, be fully willing to suffer the consequences you have brought upon yourself.

Everything is Knowledge. Knowledge is Power. Power is Everything.

[Adhara]

I believe using fame is extremely OOC. Observing someone swing/cast could be RP'ed like it gave you a good indication of the person's skills.

Yes we also need to think about other people's roleplay. As a player we might know that this character insulting us is 50+ levels below. It would be considerate to show the person how well trained we are by using a spell that is not as incapacitating as bind and silence. Web comes to mind. Its duration is much shorter. That would be fair warning to the person. If they persue then by all means, they deserve what's coming to them.

Like Dighn said, it's much like RL. You insult someone, be ready for what's coming. If you insulted Mr. Muscle you might expect what's coming. If you insult geeky skinny boy in the corner you might think you're safe until you learn (with a couple broken bones) he's a martial art master. Does it mean you deserve the beating less because you didn't suspect? Nope. You took a chance and you lost.

Every time you provoke another character in GS you should be ready for retaliation. The bigger person might be somewhat nice and give you fair warning, or they might be real mean and stun/bind you until next week. I believe they are in the right in all cases. Some will do nothing, some will overreact and kill for a mere insult. Same in real life. Just look at road rage.

Moral of the story, you don't know what kind of roleplay the person you insulted is into. If you take a chance and provoke, be a man and deal with the consequences of your actions.

[Myshel]

Myshel has never checked out a another players skill to rp a situation. She wants to rp solutions rather than use her skills to hurt someone. When Warc said those things about her on the net, she cornered him in the Inn and said her piece. Ardwen on the other hand killed him outright. I had passed him in figures and could have killed him but it didn't cross my mind to do that. If a player is 120 or a newbie, treated with respect anyone can rp a peaceable solution or ignore that player. Looking at someone's stats to see if you can take him or her, is looking for trouble, which is what it sounds like your looking for. Then you get what you deserve. In a honest rp exchange, if someone insults you or vise versa, you wouldn't be checking out stats to see how far you can go or the ever popular bring in your older sister or brother to settle it for you.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Adhara
Every time you provoke another character in GS you should be ready for retaliation. The bigger person might be somewhat nice and give you fair warning, or they might be real mean and stun/bind you until next week. I believe they are in the right in all cases.

So you're saying (if I understand you correctly) that if I had say a level 200 rogue walk into TSC and you smiled, it would be ok for me to kill you? If I considered smiling provocation? Or what if you didn't smile when I walked in, does that count as provocation? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this seems to be a logical extension of your beliefs.

[HarmNone]

You know, I think what some people are trying to say here is this: There was a time when insulting an elder would result in retaliation...period. There was no question, Lords and Ladies were to be treated with deference. However, in those times it was a rare case in which the power of age was blatantly abused.

As the population has grown, the desire (and ability) to control one's behavior has disintegrated. There are too many elders who willingly abuse the power age has bestowed on them. It is too bad, really. :(

HarmNone

[Adhara]

Originally posted by LatrinsormSo you're saying (if I understand you correctly) that if I had say a level 200 rogue walk into TSC and you smiled, it would be ok for me to kill you? If I considered smiling provocation? Or what if you didn't smile when I walked in, does that count as provocation? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this seems to be a logical extension of your beliefs.

That's not at all what I was saying. If someone plays a character that is insulted by commonly accepted actions (like someone smiling at them) I would expect them to explain that they don't like that on the first occurrence. Saying something like "Please do not smile at me. I consider this an insult." (it's silly but hey it was your example!) If the smiling person laughs in his face and smiles again, then yes, they should definitely expect retaliation.

Let's be honest, there are things that are done or said that will almost always be offensive. Insulting one's race, gender, profession etc. It is those cases I was referring to, not some innocent courtesies that would be unacceptable only to a rare few. If you know that you're asking for trouble, then I think the trouble coming your way is warranted.

I hope that clarifies my point of view.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm glad you caught that my example was silly. That was kinda my point ;)

Where do you draw the line is the question, as it's obvious you must. We agree that smiling is not enough to provoke death. What about insulting someone's race? My character may think that's just as commonplace and acceptable as smiling. Others' characters probably don't. Who's right? Is it the majority?

I don't mean to be picking on you in particular, but this does seem to be a problem. The problem is compounded when you have a very strong character who disagrees violently with a very weak character over what is provocation. Which will frustrate the weak character, and convince him/her that might does indeed make right, and the cycle continues.

In Harmnone's day (apparently) things were different. And things were better. Ah well. Instead of calling it Gemstone IV, they should call it Gemstone DX. That'd be hot.

[Jolena]

I agree with Adhara.. we as characters should deal with these things as if we were indeed in RL as far as the RP aspect goes. If you approach someone or smile at them.. even as silly as it may seem..that person you smiled at very well may perceive it as an insult. Yes..it's a very odd and probably very little used RP for someone to be insulted by a smile..however it very well may happen. In any situation you are in, you are taking risks. And I totally agree that if we are reasonable and figure that we are 50+ trains over the person bothering us it would be considerate to toss out bind rather than something that lasts longer as a 'warning' so to speak. I personally would not use my amount of power to bully someone else..however, if someone pushes Jo's button and makes her very angry.. she will most likely demand they stop and if they do not..well then there will be hell to pay. It is very interesting to me to hear everyone's responses on this as it's been something I have been pondering over for some time now in reference to using OOC means to determine if a character is older and where the line is drawn as far as bad RPing goes.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

A good question to ask is would your roleplay changed if you had the power of a capped player? I can say honestly that Dighn's would.

[Jolena]

In response to Latrinsorm.. I think that where to draw the line as to what isviolation and what is acceptable is very difficult indeed. I mean..you cant tell someone their characters views as to what sets them off against someone else is wrong.. in all honestly. And yes.. if you are indeed harassed by that person to the point of multiple deaths/injuries for days afterwards it is abuse in my opinion. But who are we to tell someone who is angered by something our character said/did to their character that they can't retaliate in their own manner? If I personally made someone angry..intentionally or not.. and was killed/injured/bound whatever.. I would have to just take it like a risk and try to learn from it. IF they continued to harass me with binds/killings/injuries then yes, I would most likely consider that abuse. First time though? No. Not one bit. It's a risk.

[Jolena]

"A good question to ask is would your roleplay changed if you had the power of a capped player? I can say honestly that Dighn's would."



Well.. in my character's position yes.. it probably would. Jolena is a fair minded and decent woman. She doesn't like to hurt another person and avoids killing people at all costs. In fact..she has only murdered twice in her entire time in the lands and it was in defense of her son who was very small. So yes.. as she got older she would most likely do something like sweep that person to let them know "hey I'm older, you might want to reconsider this" or "Hey, back off I'm getting angry".

However I have a wizard who is pretty darn mean and honestly..she doesn't care much if others are inconvenienced or angered by her. If they piss her off.. she would retaliate. Kill? It depends on the situation. And she most likely would not change her attitude no matter how young the person pissing her off was.

*Edited to add in the quote I was responding to*

[Edited on 11-15-2003 by Jolena]