Man Sues University Over Grades

[Gan]

BOSTON (Reuters) - A student is suing a Massachusetts university over what he says is an unfair grade in a philosophy course, saying it could kill his chances of entering law school.

Brian Marquis, 50, said on Wednesday that he filed the lawsuit against the University of Massachusetts last week after receiving a "C" instead of the "A minus" he had expected.

"Quite frankly, I find this utterly unacceptable," Marquis, who worked as a legal assistant before returning to college, said from the university in Amherst in western Massachusetts.

The teaching assistant redrew the grading scale "to make grades more representative of student performance", which turned Marquis's 92.1 percent points into 84 percent, which became a C, according to an e-mail by the teaching assistant.

At the university, an 84 percent score can produce a grade between "A-" to a "C" depending on the professor's preferences, according to the school newspaper, the Daily Collegian.

School officials declined to comment on the case.

Sheldon Steinbach, a former chief attorney for the American Council on Education, representing over 1,800 colleges for over three decades, said such cases are rare and the handful of students who have sued over grades typically lost in court.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-02-08T003142Z_01_N07250213_RTRUKOC_0_US-STUDENT-LAWSUIT.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
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Using a grading curve sucks, IMO. All it represents for me is the equalization of inadequate teaching and or incompetent testing, especially in a non student vs. student environment.

That being said, this guy's going to have a rude awakening once he gets into lawschool and is introduced to class structures and grading schemes where its all about student vs. student.

I do appreciate his moxy for bringing suit against the undergrad professor though.

[Skeeter]

Another example of how stupid bostonians are? I'm losing any desire to even visit there.

[CrystalTears]

Who said life is fair? And he's going to be a lawyer? Shouldn't that be the first thing you learn?

This guy sounds like my current coworker who didn't like how a teacher was teaching his business class, quit the class, and wrote a 3-page complaint letter to the dean. I'm sitting here thinking, the dean won't give a shit, and probably won't read past the first paragraph. And for a man of his age, I didn't think he would find such things so unfair to make a big deal about it.

"I have another business class, I shouldn't have to be subjected to the same kinds of tests."

....

Hey asshole, they don't care what your curriculum is. If you have another similar class, hey, it would probably make this class easier. STFU

Then again I really hate this guy and wish his contract would end already so that he can go. Sorry I rambled.

[zhelas]

Really make you wonder what his other classmates got. If he had a 84 percent and that means it was a "C" His other classmates must have done a lot better.


Using a grading curve sucks, IMO. All it represents for me is the equalization of inadequate teaching and or incompetent testing, especially in a non student vs. student environment.
Very True.

I always liked it when there were 10 students in the course and the instructor announces on the first day that these are the grades he will be handing out at the end.
2 people will get an A
5 people will get a B
3 people will get a C
What category you fall in depends on you.

[Daniel]

I dunno CT.

I try really hard to make the best out of classes, but I was forced to write the dean of my school about one teacher that just didn't blantantly give a fuck. He ended up being asked to not teach at my school ever again.

The bottom line is that I pay like 50k a year in tuition. If I have a crap teacher then of course I'm gonna be pissed about it.

[Sean of the Thread]

Nevermind.. there's just not point to it.

[CrystalTears]

I'm not saying that you can't be pissed out it, I just think he's being a drama queen about it.

He felt it was unfair what the teacher had long quizzes, didn't give out extra credit, and the material matched what he had in other course. It doesn't seem like such a grievance to me. And this guy talked my ear off about this issue, and I didn't hear anything that would cause it to be the teacher's fault, just that he didn't like the class or how the teacher was conducting it, that's all.

[Bobmuhthol]

Comparing whoever the fuck you're talking about to a man whose 92.1% average was subjectively translated into a C is pretty fucking absurd.

[TheEschaton]

This is why the curve is awful in cases where the professor is either so easy or so good that everyone scores high....when you get a 92 and you have a C, something is wrong.

The curve is meant to help people who score a 58 average and are somehow still at the top of the class.

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

Suck it up and take the course again. C'est la vie.

[CrystalTears]

You're right, they're not directly related. I'm just tense from this guy and seeing someone sue over a grade made me lose it. My bad.

[DeV]

I have a hard time agreeing with a teaching assistant having the authority to revamp the grading scale.

[Latrinsorm]

If you can't trust the second-hand information of a disgruntled student, what can you trust?

[Kefka]

That sucks... Do a C disqualify you from receiving some grants and scholarships? An A- to a C is pretty devastating when you consider the time and money you put into that course.

[Sean of the Thread]

That sucks... Do a C disqualify you from receiving some grants and scholarships? An A- to a C is pretty devastating when you consider the time and money you put into that course.

SUCK IT UP AND TAKE THE FUCKING COURSE OVER like a normal student would. You don't fucking sue over it. I hope he gets nailed with some serious costs.

[DeV]

If you can't trust the second-hand information of a disgruntled student, what can you trust?School officials, except they've declined to comment on the case for the time being.

[Sean of the Thread]

School officials, except they've declined to comment on the case for the time being.

Professional courtesy.

[Slark]

It's my personal opinion that tests should be hard enough that nobody gets a 100, and they should be curved. If multiple students get a 100, there is no way to tell which of them truly knows more. In the end, they'll both get A's anyway, so it doesn't really matter all that much. That's just my opinion as a recent college grad (physics), a current grad student, and a future high school teacher...

[Sean of the Thread]

and a future high school teacher...

Ugh I feel for you... reconsider! (or become an alcoholic)

[DeV]

An A- to a C is pretty devastating when you consider the time and money you put into that course.It could mean the difference between a 2.9 and a 3.0 GPA on your transcript. Would I sue over something like this... hell no. I wonder if he went through the proper channels of protesting the grade initially before deciding to sue the University.

Quite frankly, I think the attention generated from the lawsuit against the University will have a more negative impact on him than receiving the C grade in the first place.

[Sean of the Thread]

The difference between a 2.9 and a 3.0 on his transcript is NOT TAKING THE COURSE OVER.

[DeV]

Professional courtesy.No doubt.

[Tolwynn]

Quite frankly, I think the attention generated from the lawsuit against the University will have a more negative impact on him than receiving the C grade in the first place.

Just imagine what he'd do if he didn't get a perfect review or evaluation at his eventual job. Like hell I'd ever hire someone like that, and thanks to the publicity he's generating, potential employers will thankfully have a chance to avoid that eventual trainwreck.

[Skeeter]

It's my personal opinion that tests should be hard enough that nobody gets a 100, and they should be curved. If multiple students get a 100, there is no way to tell which of them truly knows more. In the end, they'll both get A's anyway, so it doesn't really matter all that much. That's just my opinion as a recent college grad (physics), a current grad student, and a future high school teacher...

that's a shitty position to take. Who cares which student knows more as long as they both know the material they're there to learn.

[Alfster]

I should sue for the semester that I got a .3 GPA

Fun as hell semester though

[zhelas]

I should sue for the semester that I got a .3 GPA

Fun as hell semester though

Was that the semester you got a 4.0 in bong hits?

[Slark]

that's a shitty position to take. Who cares which student knows more as long as they both know the material they're there to learn.

Isn't that the whole point of grades in the first place? This is why we give grades A-F rather than just pass/fail. There are varying degrees of "knowing the material," at least in my experience.

[Alfster]

Was that the semester you got a 4.0 in bong hits?

Is there a semester that i haven't?

[Skeeter]

Isn't that the whole point of grades in the first place? This is why we give grades A-F rather than just pass/fail. There are varying degrees of "knowing the material," at least in my experience.

I agree, but if you know all the material you should get 100%. pointless to make it subjective. Unless you're the type who gets off proving they know more than the students.

[Slark]

I agree, but if you know all the material you should get 100%. pointless to make it subjective. Unless you're the type who gets off proving they know more than the students.

I couldn't agree more, but the point I'm making is that it's easy to make tests where students can get 100% without knowing all of the material about the subject at hand. Tests rarely cover all the material covered in class. This is why I believe tests should be more difficult. This does not, in any way, make the grading subjective - if anything, it makes it less subjective. I hope you weren't trying to insult me, implying that I "get off" by being smarter than some high school students, when I don't think I've given any impression of this...

[Kefka]

SUCK IT UP AND TAKE THE FUCKING COURSE OVER like a normal student would. You don't fucking sue over it. I hope he gets nailed with some serious costs.

I believe we're all in agreement that suing is over the top. Doesn't stop the situation from sucking. I can't speak for most students, but it's doubtful many will just shrug and take the course over without making alot of noise about it.

[Daniel]

I hope you weren't trying to insult me...

You must be new here.

[Slark]

Haha, I'm perfectly willing to accept insults thrown my way, it's just that usually I do something to deserve them, and in those cases, most of the time the things I do are intentional. This time, not so much. I guess I overreacted though.

[Daniel]

As I said...

[xtc]

You must be new here.

I may make this my new sig.

[Slark]

Hah, fair enough Daniel.

[Skeeter]

I had professors who would make a test with some obscure ass facts on it that nobody but him would know, just so he could rub our noses in the fact that he was "smarter" than us. I don't think my reply was that far off base.

If I was to insult you, typically I wait until you post something personal, then use it against you in creative ways.

[ElanthianSiren]

The difference between a 2.9 and a 3.0 on his transcript is NOT TAKING THE COURSE OVER.

Wrong. Many schools don't replace the grade anymore. They use an average of the two or the lower one, so he would end up with a B or a C still. My college doesn't replace. They do the average.

-M
edit: I can understand it somewhat, not the suing but why the guy is upset by basically an assistant messing with his grade. Some people hold themselves to straight As, and it's quite important. :shrug:

[Sean]

At my school a 100 or 200 level class had it's grades replaced if you retook the class but 300+ level class grades were averaged.

[Sean of the Thread]

Wrong. Many schools don't replace the grade anymore. They use an average of the two or the lower one, so he would end up with a B or a C still. My college doesn't replace. They do the average.

-M
edit: I can understand it somewhat, not the suing but why the guy is upset by basically an assistant messing with his grade. Some people hold themselves to straight As, and it's quite important. :shrug:


UHM.. What your college does or does not has no bearing on what UMASS does and thus does not make me "Wrong." Save your personal experience arguments for the diabetes thread.

From the UMASS website:

if you choose to repeat a course, both grades for the course will be posted on your transcript but only the second grade will be counted toward your G.P.A.


(which happens to be what every school I attended did as well since we're sharing useless personal experiences to prove someone WRONG)

[ElanthianSiren]

UHM.. What your college does or does not has no bearing on what UMASS does and thus does not make me "Wrong." Save your personal experience arguments for the diabetes thread.

From the UMASS website:

if you choose to repeat a course, both grades for the course will be posted on your transcript but only the second grade will be counted toward your G.P.A.


(which happens to be what every school I attended did as well since we're sharing useless personal experiences to prove someone WRONG)


Repeating a course still looks bad transferring in. Was that in the original article?

And repeating philosophy sounds like something somewhere between removing your own nails with a pair of pliers and spending a comparable time with your ex. -Not to mention a waste of money.

-M

[Stanley Burrell]

He isn't being existential enough about the grade, obviously.

[Stanley Burrell]

I think I basically read the first and last word of every chapter before a professor arrived for the three philosophy courses I took to earn my B.A.

I wish I still had those prerequisites for my B.S. in a natural science rightaboutnow. Yeargh.

[Numbers]

I'd do exactly the same thing.

After, of course, thoroughly pursuing all other avenues. That would include talking to the teacher, the head of the department, the dean, the chancellor, and so on.

However, as anybody who's attended a large university (such as UMass) could tell you, trying to get anywhere while dealing with the bureaucracy of the university administration isn't all that productive. It could be that this was the last resort of the student.

Furthermore, it sounds like the professor changed the grading procedure at the end of the semester. As far as most colleges are concerned, what's written in the syllabus at the start of the semester in regards to the grading scheme is essentially set in stone. Since many college students track their grades throughout the semester using that scheme, I can't think of a single student who wouldn't be up in arms if they got a C when they know full well they should have gotten an A-.

In other words, while I agree that a lot of people are sue-happy, and while this may be the first case of its kind, I do not believe the student is in the wrong (assuming the student has already tried everything else).

[Sean of the Thread]

Repeating a course still looks bad transferring in. Was that in the original article?

And repeating philosophy sounds like something somewhere between removing your own nails with a pair of pliers and spending a comparable time with your ex. -Not to mention a waste of money.

-M

Don't earn a C on the first attempt then?

While I disagree with changing the grade structure during the course we don't know if that's accurate yet. Regardless people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'd do exactly the same thing.

After, of course, thoroughly pursuing all other avenues. That would include talking to the teacher, the head of the department, the dean, the chancellor, and so on.

However, as anybody who's attended a large university (such as UMass) could tell you, trying to get anywhere while dealing with the bureaucracy of the university administration isn't all that productive. It could be that this was the last resort of the student.

Furthermore, it sounds like the professor changed the grading procedure at the end of the semester. As far as most colleges are concerned, what's written in the syllabus at the start of the semester in regards to the grading scheme is essentially set in stone. Since many college students track their grades throughout the semester using that scheme, I can't think of a single student who wouldn't be up in arms if they got a C when they know full well they should have gotten an A-.

In other words, while I agree that a lot of people are sue-happy, and while this may be the first case of its kind, I do not believe the student is in the wrong (assuming the student has already tried everything else).

QFT if the student has already tried everything else.

[Apathy]

Using a grading curve sucks, IMO. All it represents for me is the equalization of inadequate teaching and or incompetent testing, especially in a non student vs. student environment.


What about classes so difficult that the only method of calculating who passes is by comparison. "Weed out" classes as they are called, are so absurdly difficult that a standard grading scale would result in too few graduates.

Maybe he just doesn't have the ability to think in a logical manner. Probably going to be a contract attorney.

[TheEschaton]

Are you joking? Contract law is the most logical thing in the world....

...property, on the other hand....holy shit. Two words: future interests.

-TheE-

[Apathy]

Amazingly, my brain was thinking property and I typed contract. I must be thinking about something else...

[Kranar]

Grades these days tend to be incredibly over inflated at universities.

I will proceed on a mini-rant of my own so by all means ignore it if you want.

In high school it's appropriate for grades to be absolute, as in if you get 90% it's because you "learned" 90% of the material you were taught by your teacher. In high school I am more sympathetic to the notion that the burden of teaching rests on the school more than it does on the student since you're still growing up, your forced to be there by law in most cases, and high school tends to put a lot of emphasis on stuff like putting in a lot of effort, working hard and doing homework, discipline and other stuff which people should learn as they grow up. High school is there to build character, strong work ethic, and education and your mark needs to reflect all these things in an objective manner using standards that are set by the community and society.

As such, 90% in high school means you achieved 90% of what the high school system expects of you, and this reflects the standards established by the community or the government or who ever is in charge of the education system and its goals.

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but I think university ought to be radically different. At university, the burden is no longer on the school to educate you or "train you", but instead should act as a resource for you to use, and quite frankly exploit all you can. The standard ought not be set by society or by any external body deciding what is considered good, but instead the standard should be set by those who are actively involved in the system, those people being the students themselves.

Seems weird, but I think students at university should be less concerned with marks and getting a good grade simply for the sake of getting a good grade, and instead focus on the incredible amount of knowledge and resources and the wealth of information available and just be passionate about it. It should be more about intellectual freedom than some number.

If you think about university in this manner, you find the whole notion of having a fixed grading system becomes absurd and actually counterproductive. All a lot of people end up doing is treating university in much the same manner that they did high school, but since they're usually much smarter they find clever ways to avoid the nuances of high school. There are literally books on how to write a multiple choice test and other types of tests, not focusing on the material or the knowledge, but instead focusing entirely on the mechanics of the test itself. And people read these and spend time learning how to write tests and how to effectively study a night or two nights before a test to do well on it, and then by the end of the course forget everything they learned.

Of course not everyone is like this, but enough people are like this to have significantly impacted the system to the point where students feel entitled to good grades, and as such grade inflation is going through the roof to the point where anything under a B+/A- no longer seems like a good grade.

That pretty much ends my rant... university is becoming more and more like high school, and the current fixed notion of a grading system is part of this problem. The closer it resembles high school, the worse off a university degree is in value.

[Apathy]

MBA = BS/A 25 years ago.

[Numbers]

I agree with you in theory, Kranar.

However, a lot of what you mentioned is interrupted by the operating principles of many universities. For one, most majors require that, in order to graduate, you must take so many of these courses and so many of those courses. This, in my opinion, is completely and utterly absurd. Yes, it's very good that a graduate be well rounded. However, I think once you reach college level, it should be entirely up to the student what classes they take.

For instance, I have and had absolutely zero interest in math. I just don't care about it. But my major at college deemed it necessary that I take two math courses. It also deemed it necessary I take two language courses, even though I'm perfectly content speaking only english. That's 12 credit hours taking courses I had no interest in and was bored stiff attending that I could have instead used to take more science, art, technology, or business courses. And math and language are only two examples - there's a whole slew of other arbitrary requirements.

Not to mention the fact that 90% of professors (rough estimate, it's probably more) still rely on tests and quizzes to determine grades. No papers or putting knowledge to practice but, as you said, the mechanics of the test and memorization, followed by a night of binge drinking to celebrate and effectively forget everything. But it's very important to do well on those tests, as most colleges will not let you graduate without a certain minimum GPA.

There's also the fact that private universities are run like a business, complete with price gouging and the ripping off of their customers (students). Not sure how public state universities are.

In any case, I'd say it's up to the universities to change their methods. There's not much students can do to restructure things.

[Sean of the Thread]

Schools like when you pay for courses twice or more.. a W on a transcript looks good for business if you ask me!

[Gan]

What about classes so difficult that the only method of calculating who passes is by comparison. "Weed out" classes as they are called, are so absurdly difficult that a standard grading scale would result in too few graduates.

Maybe he just doesn't have the ability to think in a logical manner. Probably going to be a contract attorney.

Actually, its all about expectations, and competence.

Competence in that if you are teaching a class, and design a structure by which you expect to lead the class through the material that you are expected to teach (teach being the optimal word). Then you, as an instructor, need to be competent enough to know how to design a testing method by which you can sufficiently measure the performance of the student's demonstration of knowledge gained in that class.

Competence goes hand in hand with setting the expectations of the class as required by your own teaching integrity as well as that mandated by the department and university where you teach at. If the class is to be taught with the understanding that individual student performance (grades) will be based on comparative means against other students in the class then it needs to be stipulated up front. If the performance of each student is to be measured by a set criteria in which they demonstrate a percentage of knowledge learned through standardized testing, then that expectation needs to be stipulated up front.

But the practice of not giving the students any expectation on HOW their grades are to be assessed and against what criteria, then using a sliding bell curve to fit the grades in a certain parameter in order to manipulate the overall class performance to give a false perception of teaching competence, well simply put, its bullshit.

[Ignot]

Why is this thread so long?