Woman's Lawsuit Threatens To Remove Red-Light Cameras

[zhelas]

Woman's Lawsuit Threatens To Remove Red-Light Cameras
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10927743/detail.html
http://www.newsnet5.com/2007/0201/10901955_240X180.jpg

AKRON, Ohio -- NewsChannel5 chief investigator Duane Pohlman has discovered a key lawsuit which may force cities to not only remove red-light cameras, but refund all the fines.

Pohlman said it all started because an Akron woman drew the line.

"I was angry enough to say, "I'm not paying this ticket. You know, they can do whatever they're going to do, but I'm not going to pay it," said Kelly Mendenhall.

Part 1 http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10901008/detail.html
Part 2 http://www.newsnet5.com/station/10901601/detail.html
Part 3 http://www.newsnet5.com/news/10913365/detail.html

In November 2005, Mendenhall got a ticket from a red-light camera. It stated she was going 39 mph in a 25 mph zone on Copley Road in Akron.

Mendenhall is married to Warner Mendenhall, an attorney known for fighting government.

"He said, 'Well, you're going to have to pay the ticket or I'm going to have to sue somebody.' I said, 'Well, I guess you're going to have to sue somebody,'" she said.

And he did, Pohman reported.

Warner Mmendenhall is now representing his wife in the case before the Ohio Supreme Court, challenging all red-light cameras in the state of Ohio.

"It is big brother absolutely," Mendenhall said.

The Mendenhall case challenges all red-light-cameras on constitutional grounds. He claimed the cameras and the tickets deny due process.

In the suit, Warner and his wife contend the cities have turned a criminal violation in to a civil matter with a sole purpose of making money.

"Cities cannot just take what are crimes and make them civil offenses. People cannot afford these fines. The fine my wife faced was $150," Mendenhall said.

In discovery, Mendenhall revealed thousands of mistakes, Pohlman reported.

Akron's cameras captured speeders 4,000 times, but because of problems or procedure, those tickets were tossed.

Pohlman caught mistakes in Cleveland, too. A ticket issued to the wrong plate, for the wrong vehicles and the wrong speed.

The red-light cameras are now facing a real legal challenge thanks to an attorney, Pohlman reported.

"The red light is a flashpoint of where we're going as a country, as a society about individual liberties," Warner said.

[zhelas]

It would definately stink if you were caught with the same traffic violation 5 times before the first ticket arrived.

If they win, they need to get rid of the cameras in Dallas. Dallas has admitted that this is for raising money but they will not remove the cameras.

[Hulkein]

I hate red-light cameras. I hope he wins.

[Gan]

They've just put them up in Houston.

I'm not a fan of them, and do not think they're that big of a deterrent against red light runners or have resulted in fewer red-light traffice accidents.

This will be an interesting case to follow.

[Skeeter]

they've put them up where I work. it actually causes me to speed up coming to a light so I don't get caught in the middle if it turns. Seeing as I live in Ohio I'm really rooting for this guy.

[DeV]

I recall a few instances of people fighting these tickets in Chicago a couple years ago when the lights were newly installed.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/01/192.asp is just one example.

[Eoghain]

that shit costs like 300-500 bucks in Los Angeles, and then you get points on your license and have to go to traffic school, and your car insurance sky rockets.

I'm all for getting rid of red light cameras. The red light cameras in beverly Hills (where I work) were taking pictures but not actually processing them or the violations for a few months due to a contract dispute between the city and the company that ran them, and it was like a little bit of heaven every time I blatantly blew through one without getting cited.

[Sean of the Thread]

Anyone else disappointed this thread wasn't about hookers?

[Alfster]

That's what I was thinking :(

We don't have technology here in Wisconsin, never heard of red light thingermajigs

[Gan]

Wisconsin has them, they are just camo'd to look like big blocks of cheese. ;)

[Latrinsorm]

People cannot afford these fines.If you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime. CASE DISMISSED.

[Gan]

Ok Baretta.

[Snapp]

it actually causes me to speed up coming to a light so I don't get caught in the middle if it turns.


Same here. I can't stand them and they are all over the place here.

[Lomoriond]

I know I was going 130 in a school zone, but I can't AFFORD that fine officer!

I'm getting a lawsuit so they take out school zones, selfish assholes are JUST ticketing for the sake of raising money, and not actually to protect anyone.

GAH!

[Drinin]

What a bitch.

[zhelas]

If you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime. CASE DISMISSED.

With a police officer catching you at least there is due process. Here, boom you get a ticket in the mail which may or may not be your fault. Hell it could be a member of your family driving the car. But since the car is in your name, you get the ticket and the points. Sure you could go down to the courthouse and dispute it. What a F'ing pain in the ass.

How about businesses? You have drivers driving your trucks. They get a violation. Who gets the blame? Your company. Not only that they had 5 infractions over the course of 2 days. You would have to go dispute the fines.

I understand the reasoning behind the traffic cameras.
1) Folks follow cars through the intersection even when the light is red. (this pisses me off to no end)
2) The cities see this as a source of income.

[Ignot]

Increase the god damn speeding limits!!!!!

[Sean of the Thread]

That's the last fucking thing they need to do. They're too high thru most of this county imo as it is .. THE HIGHWAYS FLOOOW LIKE A RIVER OF BLOOOOOD!!

[Ignot]

That's the last fucking thing they need to do. They're too high thru most of this county imo as it is .. THE HIGHWAYS FLOOOW LIKE A RIVER OF BLOOOOOD!!

Ah yes. Sweet river of blood.

[zhelas]

Increase the god damn speeding limits!!!!!

No Speed Limits!

[Gan]

You comrades should be working for the betterment of the state instead of driving around in unnecessary personal vehicles. Let the motherland provide good quality transportation for you so you need not worry about such strict enforcement of unnecessary trafic regulations. Think of all the money that can be spread amongst the people if you did not have to own or drive personal vehicles to work everyday.

Dasvedanya, comrades.

[Apathy]

You know if you drive up on the sidewalk the camera can't catch you.

[zhelas]

You comrades should be working for the betterment of the state instead of driving around in unnecessary personal vehicles. Let the motherland provide good quality transportation for you so you need not worry about such strict enforcement of unnecessary trafic regulations. Think of all the money that can be spread amongst the people if you did not have to own or drive personal vehicles to work everyday.

Dasvedanya, comrades.

Of course you are right General Secretary Ganalon

[zhelas]

You know if you drive up on the sidewalk the camera can't catch you.

LOL.. Most of the driver ed students would definately get off free.

[Shari]

We have those cameras here all over Phoenix. ALL OVER. We are the number one state for red-light running, as well as the number one state for fatalities involving red-light running. I think it is a great idea. We also have them for speeding on our freeways. (Though they're only on one section of town, they plan on installing more.)

So far I've only had one photo radar ticket issued to me. While it sucks, I understand their need for putting them in. Don't like them? Don't speed/run red lights. Are they unconstitutional? Perhaps. But I can't stand when people say "I can't AFFORD a fine like that." Give me a fucking break. The woman complaining about this has a husband who is a judge. I'm sure they aren't hurting for money.

We had another guy speeding along the freeway (along that section I was talking about) There were four cameras stationed along that route. He was caught by all FOUR of them going in increasing speeds from 87 to 100+ miles an hour. He fought it. How fucking stupid do you have to be to get caught on FOUR speeding cameras? He got his 60 days in jail bumped down to 7 days. Its sickening. 20+ miles an hour is criminal here. Freeway speed is 65.

Those of you who say that there are incidents involving a ticket issued to a car, with the person who doesn't own the car driving it? As it stands, there is a way around this. The owner of the car takes the ticket to the court and says, "This isn't me, I don't know who it is." and they dismiss it. They can't do anything about it. I'm sure they could investigate further but they just don't have the manpower to do so.

These rules might not be the same in other states, but that's how it works here. How do I know this? I just got done with driving school this Sunday for doing 67 in a 45.

:D

I was more than willing to accept my punishment, though I was devistated I was going to have a criminal record. I knew I was speeding. Fortunately a friend of the family has a lawyer friend who was able to lower the fine to a civil incident instead of criminal.

[Sean]

While I do think that if your willing to speed/run red lights you should be willing to suffer the consequences of your actions I do also think that you should have the right to face your accuser at the time of the incident without have to rearrange your schedule to goto court over a picture. Thats my main issue with the cameras.

[Alfster]

I was more than willing to accept my punishment, though I was devistated I was going to have a criminal record.

Oh man, that's hilarious.

[zhelas]

Those of you who say that there are incidents involving a ticket issued to a car, with the person who doesn't own the car driving it? As it stands, there is a way around this. The owner of the car takes the ticket to the court and says, "This isn't me, I don't know who it is." and they dismiss it. They can't do anything about it. I'm sure they could investigate further but they just don't have the manpower to do so.

And here lies the problem with the system. It has the potential of too many flaws. Still relys on human error and guessing. Now I have to go to court to say it isn't me. Complete BS. Especially if I receive more than 1 infraction. Try explaining that to your boss. I have to go to the court house because of a ticket? Multiple times because it wasn't me.

[Latrinsorm]

Human error and guessing is involved in every law enforcement endeavor.
I do also think that you should have the right to face your accuser at the time of the incident without have to rearrange your schedule to goto court over a picture.Why?

[zhelas]

Human error and guessing is involved in every law enforcement endeavor.


http://www.newsnet5.com/2007/0201/10901955_240X180.jpg

You are right Latrinsorm, since I can't tell who is driving or what the license plate number is, I will still make a guess and mail you a ticket. Oh it isn't you? It was your son or daughter? Too damn bad you are ticketed. And now you have points on your drivers license. You can now go to drivers ed school to get those points removed. Then again you can also come on down and dispute it.

I don't know about you but my time is more valuable than this BS.

Atleast with a police officer they can follow the car and get the license plate.

There definately is an issue with folks going through traffic lights especially when it is red. I don't think this is the answer.

[Sean of the Thread]

I want to know what the fuck peoples hurry is anyways. I love watching assholes speed and pass my ass just to have to wait at the next light along side me.


edit* It almost always seems the most asshole drivers have a phone glued to their ear or are of the wealthier variety who think the world should kowtow at every instance.

[zhelas]

Most folks IQ will drop 50 points when they get behind the wheel.

[TheEschaton]

Latrin, the right to face your accuser is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.

-TheE-

[Some Rogue]

I want to know what the fuck peoples hurry is anyways. I love watching assholes speed and pass my ass just to have to wait at the next light along side me.


edit* It almost always seems the most asshole drivers have a phone glued to their ear or are of the wealthier variety who think the world should kowtow at every instance.

And those damn kids getting on your lawn...

You're starting to sound like Stabbed. :rofl:

[Sean of the Thread]

And those damn kids getting on your lawn...

You're starting to sound like Stabbed. :rofl:

Lol it's almost true. What's changed me most is having others to care and be responsible for.. so yes idiot drivers (my wife included) drive me nuts.

I don't worry about kids on my lawn.. I worry about cars crashing thru my living room.


Let's all admit that we worry about flaming bags of poo on the door step tho.

[Skeeter]

I want to know what the fuck peoples hurry is anyways. I love watching assholes speed and pass my ass just to have to wait at the next light along side me.


edit* It almost always seems the most asshole drivers have a phone glued to their ear or are of the wealthier variety who think the world should kowtow at every instance.

Those are the people who have jobs. I understand your confusion.

[Sean of the Thread]

Those are the people who have jobs. I understand your confusion.

They should get better jobs (like me) or learn to fucking plan and follow a proper itinerary.

[Sean]

I follow my itinerary in the morning.. it just happens to be based on me driving 80mph to work.

[Kyra]

You know, the hundred plus $ a ticket for something as stupid as being too far to the right of center(but not over the line) CAN make or break a family being raised by a single parent.

I've seen it. So please don't frivolously toss around the attitude that everyone can afford the tickets.

Not everyone has a family friend who can be our lawyer & lower the fines for us.

~K.

[Sean of the Thread]

Learn 2 drive.


~S

[Ignot]

My girlfriend doesnt talk on the phone in the car like I do. instead, she text messages.....i can only imagine how worse that is. I do agree about not everyone being able to pay the fine. My GF just paid a $300 speeding ticket that was 3 months passed due. It took her that long to save up to pay it. I know i know, if you cant pay the fine then dont do the crime blah blah blah. Name me one person who has never been speeding before, wether you got caught or not.

After reading this, i realize what a bad driver she is.

[Sean of the Thread]

I was gonna say more along the lines of "If you can't pay the fine then don't get caught"

[Gan]

Human error and guessing is involved in every law enforcement endeavor.

I do also think that you should have the right to face your accuser at the time of the incident without have to rearrange your schedule to goto court over a picture.
Why?


Latrin, the right to face your accuser is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.

-TheE-

Sixth amendment.



In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

[Jazuela]

Heh I got a ticket for being too far right of center within my chosen passage lane (but not going over the line) once. I thought it was ridiculous too so I pleaded not guilty and went to court. The officer who issued the ticket didn't show up so they nollied the ticket and sent me home.

I've had two speeding tickets in all the years I've been driving (29 years). The first time, I pleaded not guilty, went to court, and the issuing officer didn't show up so it was nollied. The second time, I pleaded not guilty and they sent me the nolly by mail; no court date needed.

The lesson I've learned from all this: Don't get caught speeding often. That way the few times you -do- get caught, you can get your ticket tossed just by sending it in with a not-guilty plea.

I've been told by court officers also, you should always ask for a court date and plead to a lower fine. The high fines are given out with the assumption that suckers will pay it, and smart people will get it lowered or eliminated entirely. Lower fines can also come with lower points against your license, if you simply ask for it. Nollied tickets come with zero points, because a nolly essentially means the ticket never existed in the first place.

[Ignot]

I also heard that you should re-schedule your court date and the officer is less likely to show up. I don't know how accurate this is and I always thought that officer's showing up to court was pretty important but hey, it's worth a try.

[Latrinsorm]

It was your son or daughter? Too damn bad you are ticketed.Bad parenting fee. :D
Latrin, the right to face your accuser is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.What it says is "to be confronted with the witnesses against him", as Ganalon nicely bolded. (The witness in this case being the picture.) Being guaranteed to face your accuser at the time of the crime makes no sense.
So please don't frivolously toss around the attitude that everyone can afford the tickets.The idea wasn't that anyone can afford any ticket. The idea was that if you can't afford the ticket, you have to avoid all criminal/fineable behavior. Nobody's talking about ticky-tack fines, what we're talking about is stuff that gets people killed.
Name me one person who has never been speeding before, wether you got caught or not.Meatwad.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'd like to add that a lot of officers use the "too far from center without crossing the line" for an excuse to legitimately pull over someone they would like to further scrutinize.

[TheEschaton]

Ummmm, unless you're saying a camera snapping pictures is not only A) a witness to your crime, but also B) has the authority to issue you a ticket, and C) can be reasoned with in case you believe you are not guilty.....there is no witness.

And I was actually referring to the Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be.... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

Due process of law involves much more than having your picture taken, issued a ticket electronically, and then have it mailed.
Edited to add: Which is, of course, what the whole lawsuit is about, though the right to confront your accusers (IE, the witnesses who have the authority to charge you) is still a relevant legal argument.

Jazuela: "Nolly"? You live in CT, and work in a fucking Burger King. Use fucking American English.

As an aside, I saw a woman talking on her cell phone, eating, and applying mascara ALL AT THE SAME TIME as she careened down Comm Ave this morning at like 50 mph (which is 20 mph over the speed limit for a reason).

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

There is usually someone behind the cameras in this country I think... it's not like the auto ones in Europe I'm pretty sure. I'd have to do some more digging on the subject to be solid on that tho.

I do remember seeing a careerbuilder listing for the Florida Highway Patrol's TECH/Camera center where they monitor all the cameras set up on our roads here in FL.

[Sean of the Thread]

Jazuela: "Nolly"? You live in CT, and work in a fucking Burger King. Use fucking American English.

-TheE-

This thread just achieved 5 stars.


Awesome.

[CrystalTears]

WTF is Nolly?!

[Alfster]

Must be a burger king thing

[Back]

I always thought that if these cameras saved just one person’s life, then they are worth it.

[Alfster]

What if that one person was Hitler at the age of 12?

[CrystalTears]

I always thought that if these cameras saved just one person’s life, then they are worth it.
Have they?

[zhelas]

What it says is "to be confronted with the witnesses against him", as Ganalon nicely bolded. (The witness in this case being the picture.) Being guaranteed to face your accuser at the time of the crime makes no sense.

In this case the company ACS runs and monitors the cameras that take the pictures. I am sure there is some city/town/state employee or official who has the shitty job of sitting behind a computer and say. That person is guilty even though I can't read the license plate.

[Back]

Here comes the h8 parade.

[zhelas]

I always thought that if these cameras saved just one person’s life, then they are worth it.

I agree if the camera system saved a life, they would be worth it. But then you are having big brother monitor everything you do or they think you are doing.

[Back]

What if that one person was Hitler at the age of 12?


I agree if the camera system saved a life, they would be worth it. But then you are having big brother monitor everything you do or they think you are doing.

Thats what I always thought. If I know there is a speed trap I’m not going to push the accelerator. Especially in urban areas. Thats just plain common sense.

If I’m on the open road with a clear view, yeah, I like my speed.

If this is just a scheme for some private company to make money with no intent on safety, then yeah, its stupid.

[zhelas]

If this is just a scheme for some private company to make money with no intent on safety, then yeah, its stupid.

ACS runs the equipment. Huge contract for them. Cities like Dallas see it as a money maker.

I have seen the cameras in Phoenix. Atleast Phoenix will post an advisory that this is happening at the intersections. While in Dallas they are not.

[Sean of the Thread]

If I’m on the open road with a clear view, yeah, I like my speed.



You need a car first slacker.

[zhelas]

You need a car first slacker.

http://englishrussia.com/images/car.jpg

[zhelas]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20070205/tc_cmp/197003126
CHICAGO - In some cities in Europe and the United States, a person can be videotaped by surveillance cameras hundreds of times a day, and it's safe to say that most of the time no one is actually watching.

But the advent of "intelligent video" -- software that raises the alarm if something on camera appears amiss -- means Big Brother will soon be able to keep a more constant watch, a prospect that is sure to heighten privacy concerns.

Combining motion detection technology with the learning capabilities of video game software, these new systems can detect people loitering, walking in circles or leaving a package.

New microphone technology can isolate the sound of a gunshot and direct the attached camera to swivel and zoom in on the source. Sensitivity may reach the point where microphones could pick out the word "explosives" spoken in a crowd.

"There's just not enough personnel to watch every single camera," said Chicago emergency operations chief Andrew Velasquez. "We are piloting analytic software right now ... where you can set that particular camera to watch for erratic behavior, or someone leaving a suitcase on the sidewalk."

Since the attacks on the United States of Sept. 11, 2001, sections of New York, Washington, Los Angeles, Chicago and even a few smaller U.S. towns have been blanketed with closed-circuit cameras. Privately owned cameras are also proliferating.

FALSE POSITIVES

The encroachment on privacy in what civil libertarians call a "surveillance society" may be a price willingly paid by citizens who fear terrorism and crime.

But ever-alert software capable of maintaining a continuous "watch" on security cameras multiplies the risks of harassing innocent people, privacy experts say.

"I don't buy it. The number of false positives are going to be astronomical," said David Holtzman, author of "Privacy Lost." "It's extremely dangerous to abrogate legitimate law enforcement authority ... to a camera."

In Chicago's darkened, windowless surveillance center, Velasquez looks forward to using new technology, which has had some success elsewhere.

The port of Jacksonville, Florida, has dispensed with human monitoring of cameras altogether by sending alerts and live video to the personal digital assistant of the nearest officer on patrol, according to a spokesman for ObjectView Inc.

ObjectView is one of two dozen companies seeking to perfect so-called intelligent video -- an industry whose sales will grow from $60 million to $400 million within five years, according to global consulting group Frost & Sullivan.

Meanwhile, Texas is evaluating a pilot program in which it allowed Internet access to video of unmanned sections of its border with Mexico and urged viewers to send an e-mail if they spotted something.

"The cameras don't replace police officers. They are in essence a force multiplier. They serve as an extra set of eyes," Velasquez said.

OGLING

The Chicago center is manned 24 hours a day by veteran police officers. A dozen screens depict a few street corners and a stadium, while others are tuned to cable news or Web sites.

They can retrieve video from thousands of cameras and their universe is expanded by private cameras owned by cooperating buildings and stores, but they can monitor only a few at a time.

Velasquez said his officers receive training on privacy and constitutional rights -- for example it is illegal to look into private homes and offices -- and digital recordings hold his officers accountable and prevent abuses that have occurred elsewhere.

In Britain, which has 4.2 million government security cameras, 2 million in London alone, a study showed that male surveillance workers sometimes ogled women on their screens, while others focused on minorities excessively.

But privacy experts also note another British study, from 2002, which said surveillance cameras did not lower overall crime rates, and mereley pushes crime elsewhere.

"Cameras are great tools for solving crime. They're not really that helpful in preventing crime," said Ed Yohnka of the
American Civil Liberties Union.

Velasquez disputed the conclusion that cameras don't prevent crime, saying he constantly fields requests from residents asking for a camera to make their neighborhood safer.

He said cameras contributed to a drop in violent crime in the city of Chicago in recent years, a drop that is widely attributed to improved police work in countering gangs and street-corner drug dealing. At the same time, gang activity has surged in some Chicago suburbs.

The city's prosecutors said they rarely use video evidence in court from the cameras, which are encased in bulletproof boxes topped by blue flashing lights and are a common sight in crime-ridden neighborhoods.

Downtown, the cameras are less obtrusive, though a pair mounted on a park fountain was removed after an outcry that they defiled the art.

Holtzman, the privacy expert, wondered where the line will be drawn if authorities opt to use the cameras to spy on suspects or to sniff out low-level crimes.

There are no legal barriers to video being subpoenaed by, for instance, a divorce lawyer seeking evidence of infidelity, he said.

"I think there's a certain amount of freedom you want to give people that live in the city to kind of screw up a little bit," he said.

[Skeeter]

I always thought that if these cameras saved just one person’s life, then they are worth it.

to psudo-quote Doc Holiday in Tombstone.

Apparently your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[Skeeter]

wall of text

I wonder when their IPO is. Let's get rich.

[Gan]

ACS runs the equipment. Huge contract for them. Cities like Dallas see it as a money maker.

I have seen the cameras in Phoenix. Atleast Phoenix will post an advisory that this is happening at the intersections. While in Dallas they are not.

There are advisory signs before every intersection (and direction) that the cameras are in use here in Houston.

[Ignot]

Tenacious D was right, we should all be traveling tubes!

[Bartlett]

Having a history in Loss Prevention, I will say that cameras in stores don't really reduce crime, because everyone has them. They are ubiquitous and mainly unwatched. Some of our aisles had monitors on which the criminal could watch themselves being watched while ripping over a package of razors and pocketing them. There is a percentage of crime that moves away from the camers and those folks go to seeimgly "dead" aisles. Same thing would happen with crime - making a camera in your neighborhood, while it is the only one, very effective.

As for the stoplight cam, if you get caught, pay the fine. If you are falsely accused, fight it and win. Don't fight it when you are guilty and claim you a patron of my civil liberties. Having enough money to weasel out of a fine that you actually owe, tells me you had enough money to pay it, and you are doing it on a principle which says "WAAAAH."

[Artha]

I think a lot of our traffic laws are dated bullshit. Which is why it's so appealing for small towns to become speed traps - easy money.

[Bartlett]

I'm not sure how it works in most of the other states around the country, but the money - at least a majority of it- collected for traffic violations is given to the state, whether stopped by local authorities or state troopers.

As a side note, I think the notion of revoking the license of young drivers for every offense is much more BS than most existing laws. This idea is pretty new in NH, and it may have even been repealed (I no longer am at risk, thus don't care)