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Xaerve
12-14-2006, 12:01 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/health/14hiv.html?ex=1323752400&en=af128f63110c1c4d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

December 14, 2006
H.I.V. Risk Halved by Circumcision, U.S. Agency Finds
By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

Circumcision appears to reduce a man’s risk of contracting AIDS from heterosexual sex by half, United States government health officials said yesterday, and the directors of the two largest funds for fighting the disease said they would consider paying for circumcisions in high-risk countries.

The announcement was made by officials of the National Institutes of Health as they halted two clinical trials, in Kenya and Uganda, on the ground that not offering circumcision to all the men taking part would be unethical. The success of the trials confirmed a study done last year in South Africa.

AIDS experts immediately hailed the finding. “This is very exciting news,” said Daniel Halperin, an H.I.V. specialist at the Harvard Center for Population and Development, who has argued that circumcision slows the spread of AIDS in the parts of Africa where it is common.

In an interview from Zimbabwe, he added, “I have no doubt that as word of this gets around, millions of African men will want to get circumcised, and that will save many lives.”

Uncircumcised men are thought to be more susceptible because the underside of the foreskin is rich in Langerhans cells, sentinel cells of the immune system, which attach easily to the human immunodeficiency virus, which causes AIDS. The foreskin also often suffers small tears during intercourse.

But experts also cautioned that circumcision is no cure-all. It only lessens the chances that a man will catch the virus; it is expensive compared to condoms, abstinence or other methods; and the surgery has serious risks if performed by folk healers using dirty blades, as often happens in rural Africa.

Circumcision is “not a magic bullet, but a potentially important intervention,” said Dr. Kevin M. De Cock, director of H.I.V./AIDS for the World Health Organization.

Sex education messages for young men need to make it clear that “this does not mean that you have an absolute protection,” said Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, an AIDS researcher and director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

Circumcision should be used with other prevention methods, he said, and it does nothing to prevent spread by anal sex or drug injection, ways in which the virus commonly spreads in the United States.

The two trials, conducted by researchers from universities in Illinois, Maryland, Canada, Uganda and Kenya, involved nearly 3,000 heterosexual men in Kisumu, Kenya, and nearly 5,000 in Rakai, Uganda. None were infected with H.I.V. They were divided into circumcised and uncircumcised groups, given safe sex advice (although many presumably did not take it), and retested regularly.

The trials were stopped this week by the N.I.H. Data Safety and Monitoring Board after data showed that the Kenyan men had a 53 percent reduction in new H.I.V. infection. Twenty-two of the 1,393 circumcised men in that study caught the disease, compared with 47 of the 1,391 uncircumcised men.

In Uganda, the reduction was 48 percent.

Those results echo the finding of a trial completed last year in Orange Farm, a township in South Africa, financed by the French government, which demonstrated a reduction of 60 percent among circumcised men.

The two largest agencies dedicated to fighting AIDS said they would now be willing to pay for circumcisions, which they have not before because there was too little evidence that it worked.

Dr. Richard G. A. Feachem, executive director of the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria, which has almost $5 billion in pledges, said in a television interview that if a country submitted plans to conduct sterile circumcisions, “I think it’s very likely that our technical panel would approve it.”

Dr. Mark Dybul, executive director of President Bush’s $15 billion Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, said in a statement that his agency “will support implementation of safe medical male circumcision for H.I.V./AIDS prevention” if world health agencies recommend it.

He also warned that it was only one new weapon in the fight, adding, “Prevention efforts must reinforce the A.B.C. approach — abstain, be faithful, and correct and consistent use of condoms.”

Researchers have long noted that parts of Africa where circumcision is common — particularly the Muslim countries of West Africa — have much lower AIDS rates, while those in southern Africa, where circumcision is rare, have the highest.

But drawing conclusions was always confounded by other regional factors, like strict Shariah law in some Muslim areas, rape and genocide in East Africa, polygamy, rites that require widows to have sex with a relative, patronage of prostitutes by miners, and men’s insistence on dangerous “dry sex” — with the woman’s vaginal walls robbed of secretions with desiccating herbs.

Outside Muslim regions, circumcision is spotty. In South Africa, for example, the Xhosa people circumcise teenage boys, while Zulus do not. AIDS is common in both tribes.

Nelson Mandela’s autobiography, “Long Walk to Freedom,” contains an unnerving but hilarious account of his own Xhosa circumcision, by spear blade, as a teenager. Although he was supposed to shout, “I am a man!” he grimaced in pain, he wrote.

But not all initiation ceremonies are laughing matters. Every year, some South African teenagers die from infections, and the use of one blade on many young men may help spread AIDS.

In recent years, as word has spread that circumcision might be protective, many southern African men have sought it out. A Zambian hospital offered $3 circumcisions last year, and Swaziland trained 60 doctors to do them for $40 after waiting lists at its national hospital grew.

“Private practitioners also do it,” Dr. Halperin said. “In some places, it’s $20; in others, much more. Lots of the wealthy elite have already done it. It prevents S.T.D.’s, it’s seen as cleaner, sex is better, women like it. I predict that a lot of men who can’t afford private clinics will start clamoring for it.” (S.T.D.’s are sexually transmitted diseases.)

Male circumcision also benefits women. For example, a study of the medical records of 300 Ugandan couples last year estimated that circumcised men infected with H.I.V. were about 30 percent less likely to transmit it to their female partners.

Earlier studies on Western men have shown that circumcision significantly reduces the rate at which men infect women with the virus that causes cervical cancer. A study published in 2002 in The New England Journal of Medicine found that uncircumcised men were about three times as likely as circumcised ones with a similar number of sexual partners to carry the human papillomavirus.

The suspected mechanism was the same — cells on the inside of the foreskin were also more susceptible to that virus, which is not closely related to H.I.V.

Daniel
12-14-2006, 12:10 AM
I don't think I'd want to go for a discount circumsicion personally.

Xaerve
12-14-2006, 12:32 AM
I don't think I'd want to go for a discount circumsicion personally.

I'm trying to decide if I send this article to a friend who I know would go out and circumcise her 16 year old son immediately upon reading this...

He's a nice kid ... hmmm

Daniel
12-14-2006, 12:52 AM
It's not so bad. I had it done a year ago. Just keep the vicodin levels in the bloodstream high for the first few days.

Jolena
12-14-2006, 01:03 AM
A friend of mine had it done when he was sixteen, and they didn't give him hormone blocking pills so he got a hardon in the morning and the stitches pulled so taut that they ripped. :cringe: It was literally a bloody mess.

Moral of the story? Make sure you get those pills, boys. Make sure you get those pills.

Latrinsorm
12-14-2006, 01:04 AM
I didn't think any post was going to top Stanley's heels for gross-out factor for awhile. Clearly I was gravely, gravely mistaken.

Jolena
12-14-2006, 01:06 AM
:whistle:

Daniel
12-14-2006, 01:47 AM
Yea, I pretty much spend the first three days in a coma.

Sean of the Thread
12-14-2006, 05:54 AM
Aids doesn't exist.. it's all a money farming lie.

Xaerve
12-14-2006, 09:15 AM
A friend of mine had it done when he was sixteen, and they didn't give him hormone blocking pills so he got a hardon in the morning and the stitches pulled so taut that they ripped. :cringe: It was literally a bloody mess.

Moral of the story? Make sure you get those pills, boys. Make sure you get those pills.

Thats the worst thing I've heard in YEARS

Kuyuk
12-14-2006, 09:35 AM
I like my skin. kthx.


K.

TheEschaton
12-14-2006, 11:16 AM
As a member of the uncircumcised masses, I'll chip in that cutting off the foreskin = not cool, especially after you're sexually active (so Artha, Bob, feel free).....

...and you know what cuts HIV infection by 99%? Using a condom every time.

-TheE-

Gan
12-14-2006, 11:17 AM
T M I

:wtf:

Sean of the Thread
12-14-2006, 11:18 AM
Newsflash! Cutting the dick cheese factory off IS cool. Enjoy your lonely life petting your ant eater.

Hulkein
12-14-2006, 11:45 AM
Having it done when you're born and can't remember it is a plus.

I never knew so many people were uncircumcised. Ant-eater freaks.

Stanley Burrell
12-14-2006, 11:49 AM
I keep re-reading:


The announcement was made by officials of the National Institutes of Health as they halted two clinical trials, in Kenya and Uganda, on the ground that not offering circumcision to all the men taking part would be unethical. The success of the trials confirmed a study done last year in South Africa.

And while keeping the definite financial concerns of the NIH in mind, I find it a little bit disturbing that the ball was set in motion to this particular study, which the controls of circumcision and unprotected dry sex were key ingredients in determining the spreading of a fatal STD.

Ehhhhhrrmmmgghqasdfghhmmmmm... I'm drawn on thinking whether the life-saving potential outweighs the inherent risk of deliberate negligence.

Hopefully the corroded spearheads were autoclaved for the Xhosa rituals.

Atlanteax
12-14-2006, 12:39 PM
If the Agencies start sponsoring "circumcision clinics", what will Mother Nature do for population control instead?

Stanley Burrell
12-14-2006, 12:47 PM
If the Agencies start sponsoring "circumcision clinics", what will Mother Nature do for population control instead?

Mother Bush will continue to deprive the NIH funding to freebie birth control, at least.

I think some worldly populations would prefer the aforementioned as a primary mechanism depleting increasing peoples and persons vs. Hurt me Plenty/Ultra-Violence.

Hulkein
12-14-2006, 02:42 PM
I don't think this practice is being thought as a way to combat AIDs in America, geniuses. It could be a way to stem the tide of infection in countries where they don't have a pot to piss in, much less condoms.

g++
12-14-2006, 05:03 PM
Only full castration has been shown 100% effective against the spread of the aids virus.

Sean of the Thread
12-14-2006, 05:12 PM
ANT EATER FREEAAAKS

Satira
12-14-2006, 05:43 PM
As someone who has absolutely no preference one way or another on circumcision visually...

Can that many people in Africa afford this kind of surgery? I don't think chopping off part of your dick is really a good means of controlling AIDS. Not to mention this is based off of one study done in South Africa which is different from the rest of the country.

I doubt this new finding would cause any kind of serious hault that's needed to the spread of AIDS over there. It isn't practical.

I'm with g++ on this one.

Sean of the Thread
12-14-2006, 05:48 PM
I love it when you talk dirty.

Drew
12-14-2006, 05:57 PM
Which do the ladies on this board prefer?

Sean of the Thread
12-14-2006, 06:04 PM
Which do the ladies on this board prefer?

EWWW DREW HAS AN ANT EATER!!

g++
12-14-2006, 06:07 PM
As someone who has absolutely no preference one way or another on circumcision visually...

Can that many people in Africa afford this kind of surgery? I don't think chopping off part of your dick is really a good means of controlling AIDS. Not to mention this is based off of one study done in South Africa which is different from the rest of the country.

I doubt this new finding would cause any kind of serious hault that's needed to the spread of AIDS over there. It isn't practical.

I'm with g++ on this one.

On a serious note if I was in africa right now the the very real chance of dieng of infection as a side effect of the operation would far outweigh the future chance of contracting aids, living in the states or europe its easy to forget in alot of hospitals around the world a hangnail can be terminal never mind cutting swaths of skin off your penis.

Celephais
12-14-2006, 06:18 PM
Only full castration has been shown 100% effective against the spread of the aids virus.

Nah, sharing needles will still get you it.

I think they're numbers are ridiculously small to suddenly state it's a success, no more study, chop teh dick! Maybe in africa rancid hoes like ant-eaters... so it's just a side effect.

Either way... I'm just glad I got cut when I was too young to remember.

Apathy
12-14-2006, 07:29 PM
This whole thread makes me want to cry.

TheEschaton
12-14-2006, 08:44 PM
I've never heard it be called an anteater. Huh.

Anyways - wrapping it up is much cheaper, since most PEPFAR countries now provide government produced condoms free.

And g++ makes a good point. I wouldn't want anyone doing surgery on me unless it was in Johannesburg. And you think you're gonna get those downers which'll preventing you getting up and ripping your stitches out in Africa? Holy shit man, that makes me cringe.

-TheE-

Gan
12-14-2006, 08:53 PM
Anyways - wrapping it up is much cheaper, since most PEPFAR countries now provide government produced condoms free.-TheE-


Nothing like putting your life in the hands of the lowest bidder. (and I'm not talking about your dates either).

:whistle:

TheEschaton
12-14-2006, 09:02 PM
Well, USAID oversees the process. They're supposedly quality. And I used them with my girlfriend.

-TheE-

Apathy
12-14-2006, 09:02 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2690544

The future of coitus is now!

Back
12-14-2006, 09:57 PM
Circumscision is a covenant with God. The Dude abides.

ElanthianSiren
12-14-2006, 10:54 PM
Circumcised looks better IMO. Natural is better from a disease standpoint (also IMO). That out of the way, every time someone comes out with a study saying being circumcised or not being circumcised helps something, someone else comes out with another study to show that a) study a's methods were flawed or b) study a was really a crock of shit. I'd wait for the counter point (if the decision was based solely on health reasons vs. aesthetics) before chopping things off my kid, had I one.


-M

Back
12-14-2006, 11:15 PM
Circumcised looks better IMO. Natural is better from a disease standpoint (also IMO). That out of the way, every time someone comes out with a study saying being circumcised or not being circumcised helps something, someone else comes out with another study to show that a) study a's methods were flawed or b) study a was really a crock of shit. I'd wait for the counter point (if the decision was based solely on health reasons vs. aesthetics) before chopping things off my kid, had I one.


-M

You did not read the article, obviously.

The point is that there are certain cellular dangers to having an anteater as it has been described. But here you go again with your “some studies say this”*and “some studies say that” bullshit.

Drew
12-15-2006, 12:11 AM
EWWW DREW HAS AN ANT EATER!!



No way, only one of my friends isn't snipped and we give him shit for it.

Gan
12-15-2006, 12:36 AM
Circumcised looks better IMO. Natural is better from a disease standpoint (also IMO). That out of the way, every time someone comes out with a study saying being circumcised or not being circumcised helps something, someone else comes out with another study to show that a) study a's methods were flawed or b) study a was really a crock of shit. I'd wait for the counter point (if the decision was based solely on health reasons vs. aesthetics) before chopping things off my kid, had I one.


-M

Thank God you dont have kids then. The medical community leans heavily towards circumcision for many reasons besides this study. Trusting the advice of your doctor in matters such as this would be the wise choice. Not waiting on someone's counterpoint.

Daniel
12-15-2006, 09:46 AM
Getting circumsized at 22 was probably one of the best things I ever did.

ElanthianSiren
12-15-2006, 01:53 PM
Thank God you dont have kids then. The medical community leans heavily towards circumcision for many reasons besides this study. Trusting the advice of your doctor in matters such as this would be the wise choice. Not waiting on someone's counterpoint.

Yeah, one of them being the amount of money that they make vs time invested in circumcision. Doctors are misinformed (and misinform) more than politicians, due to the rigidness of their training (a great example of this is their reliance on a low calorie, high carbohydrate diet to treat juvenile diabetes). What's your statistical basis for your recommendation? How often have you really dealt with doctors?

A list of the amount of times doctors (from endocrins to osteopaths, including emergency) were just plain WRONG in their treatment and assessment of my condition and various symptoms of my condition could probably double the amount of post space on this board. The best course in a non-emergency is to read as much research as you can yourself and weigh your options, not have a treatment hand fed by someone with a vested interest. That's my experience.

-M

ElanthianSiren
12-15-2006, 02:03 PM
Board isn't letting me edit, so...


You did not read the article, obviously.

The point is that there are certain cellular dangers to having an anteater as it has been described. But here you go again with your “some studies say this”*and “some studies say that” bullshit.

I did read the article. I read that they based their argument on tears (which can happen) and spongy cells, which I'm not disputing. Had I a kid being exposed to AIDs every day, I'd definitely have him circumcised, but I doubt many people will be exposed to AIDs every single day in a sexual setting, and there are other benefits to be considered for NOT circumcising your child.

-M

Goretawn
12-15-2006, 02:03 PM
Yeah, my buddy is still hurting from reading this thread. Will have to go home and pet him now.

TheEschaton
12-15-2006, 03:34 PM
Uhhh, Gan, if you take care of it properly, there's no statistically significant difference in health for circumcised v. uncircumcised males....

...unless this HIV thing is the first one...

....which is why I don't believe it to be true.

And plus, us unsnipped men feel more sexual pleasure. Hot damn.

-TheE-

Back
12-15-2006, 03:40 PM
And plus, us unsnipped men feel more sexual pleasure. Hot damn.

-TheE-

How can anyone possibly measure that?

Gan
12-15-2006, 03:46 PM
Uhhh, Gan, if you take care of it properly, there's no statistically significant difference in health for circumcised v. uncircumcised males....

...unless this HIV thing is the first one...

....which is why I don't believe it to be true.

And plus, us unsnipped men feel more sexual pleasure. Hot damn.

-TheE-


You're going to have to back that up with some references or sources if you expect us to believe all that.

Jolena
12-15-2006, 03:48 PM
The sensitivity of the penis is enhanced for an uncircumsised male due to the sensation of the foreskin pulling back and pushing forth during intercourse in addition to the feeling of penetrating a woman, is my guess. He is also not the first male I've heard say that during one of these discussions either.

That being said, yes, if you take care of it properly, the risk of infection is significantly reduced. However, many parents would rather not trust the diligence of their child to pull back foreskin and clean religiously each and every time they take a bath, use the restroom, etc. Taking your child to the bath and cleaning it for them really becomes something a parent does NOT want to do at later ages either so your ability to control it as a parent is hindered. There are children that will clean themselves well, don't get me wrong, but as a parent not wishing a child to have to go through multiple infections and uncomfortable tears from not being careful when pulling skin back, I can understand the desire to get your child circumsised.

Also, tears during intercourse are a lot more common than one would think. Its a very painful thing to have happen and if you can avoid that chance by having it snipped, why not?

TheEschaton
12-15-2006, 03:49 PM
Let's ask our residential snipped-as-an-adult male.

Daniel, sex before and after snipping?

-TheE-

Sean of the Thread
12-15-2006, 04:19 PM
The sensitivity of the penis is enhanced for an uncircumsised male due to the sensation of the foreskin pulling back and pushing forth during intercourse in addition to the feeling of penetrating a woman, is my guess. He is also not the first male I've heard say that during one of these discussions either.

That being said, yes, if you take care of it properly, the risk of infection is significantly reduced. However, many parents would rather not trust the diligence of their child to pull back foreskin and clean religiously each and every time they take a bath, use the restroom, etc. Taking your child to the bath and cleaning it for them really becomes something a parent does NOT want to do at later ages either so your ability to control it as a parent is hindered. There are children that will clean themselves well, don't get me wrong, but as a parent not wishing a child to have to go through multiple infections and uncomfortable tears from not being careful when pulling skin back, I can understand the desire to get your child circumsised.

Also, tears during intercourse are a lot more common than one would think. Its a very painful thing to have happen and if you can avoid that chance by having it snipped, why not?

HAHAHA STUNSEED HAS AN ANT EATER!!

Daniel
12-15-2006, 04:27 PM
After.

The reason why I got it done was bcuz I tore it several times. This is not pleasurable. I'm sure it would have also aided in transmission of diseases.

Also, my foreskin was too tight which meant that instead of an enjoyable experience it usually strangled my cock. Which meant that I couldnt achieve orgasm through regular sex until after I had it cut.

Therefore, I'm pro cut.

P.s. The reason why uncirmsized people are less susceptible to infections is not onoly due to the lack of bactria on the foreskin but because the skin itself can have very small non painful breaks which are like leaving hte key under the doormat for STD's.

Gan
12-15-2006, 04:40 PM
Seek the scissors and they shall set you free.

Sean of the Thread
12-15-2006, 04:41 PM
Not to mention ant eaters churn butter chunks.

Jolena
12-15-2006, 04:42 PM
Your intimate knowledge of 'ant eaters' and 'butter chunks' makes me nervous, Sean2. :(

Sean of the Thread
12-15-2006, 04:46 PM
Well I don't know everything obviously... maybe you can fill us in as to what one tastes like?

Jolena
12-15-2006, 04:48 PM
Just..wrong. Totally and completely wrong. :( (and no, I don't. Srry.)

Daniel
12-15-2006, 04:57 PM
So basicly Stunsteed doesn't even get loving from his wife.

Talk about pimp

Jolena
12-15-2006, 05:08 PM
I never said that! I said I don't know what butter chunks are like! :flail:


You guys make me :cry:

Daniel
12-15-2006, 05:12 PM
Stunsteed FTL

Celephais
12-15-2006, 05:35 PM
After.

The reason why I got it done was bcuz I tore it several times. This is not pleasurable. I'm sure it would have also aided in transmission of diseases.

Also, my foreskin was too tight which meant that instead of an enjoyable experience it usually strangled my cock. Which meant that I couldnt achieve orgasm through regular sex until after I had it cut.

Therefore, I'm pro cut.

P.s. The reason why uncirmsized people are less susceptible to infections is not onoly due to the lack of bactria on the foreskin but because the skin itself can have very small non painful breaks which are like leaving hte key under the doormat for STD's.


Holy fuck this made me cringe...

Alfster
12-15-2006, 10:33 PM
Stunseeds new nickname ---> Flapjack

Sean of the Thread
12-15-2006, 11:32 PM
I bet he likes lots of butter on his flapjack(s).

Jolena
12-15-2006, 11:49 PM
I heavily dislike you two. :grr:

Sean of the Thread
12-16-2006, 12:14 AM
You just made my day.

Gan
12-16-2006, 03:34 AM
Stunseeds new nickname ---> Flapjack



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Another PRIME example why some things just should not be made available on a public forum. The make and model of ones pocket rocket would definately be one of them.