View Full Version : 'Tis the Season: Town Silences Church Bells...
zhelas
12-01-2006, 10:23 AM
Church Is Denied Waiver of Noise Restriction
St. John Neumann's Bells Disturbed Some Residents
By Bill Turque
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 1, 2006; B02
Fairfax County officials have issued a ringing non-endorsement of the bells at St. John Neumann's in Reston, ruling that they must toll within the limits of the county's noise ordinance or not at all.
The Board of Supervisors asked the zoning staff this year to see whether the law could be amended to accommodate the church, whose bells ring at a volume slightly higher than the 55-decibel maximum permitted in residential areas.
But James P. Zook, director of Fairfax's Department of Planning and Zoning, recently told the board in a memo that creating an exception for church bells could be constitutionally problematic, leaving the county open to court challenge.
"Localities cannot enact different standards for noise emanating from a place of worship," Zook said. If Fairfax did that, he said, the new rules would have to apply to "all other types of bells, chimes or carillons." Zook noted, however, that at least two other cities, Morgantown, W.Va., and Seattle, did make exceptions for church bells.
St. John's, a Catholic church in south Reston, installed a $50,000 electronic bell system in 2004 as part of a major expansion. When the bells began ringing, in three-minute bursts -- three times on weekdays, once on Saturdays and before each of five Sunday Masses, starting at 7:30 a.m. -- neighbors complained.
The county discovered that the bells registered at an average of 75 decibels (roughly equivalent to a vacuum cleaner at close range), which is considerably above the 55-decibel limit in residential areas.
The church reduced the power flowing to the three bells, which brought the reading down to 60 decibels, softer (about the sound of an air conditioner at 50 feet) but still above the limit.
The dispute has kept the bells silent for 23 months.
"It's frustrating, because the sound is so much a part of our tradition," said the Rev. Thomas Murphy, the church's pastor. "Anybody who has grown up in a city atmosphere is familiar with the ringing of bells."
But the church, named for a 19th-century Philadelphia priest who founded the first national parish for Italian Americans, is in the suburbs, where noise of virtually any kind can become a quality-of-life problem.
Sean Walsh, who has lived on nearby Pegasus Lane for 20 years, said the county's ruling was good news for most of his neighbors.
"No one here is anti-church or anything," Walsh said. "People just want some peace and quiet."
Church members have said the complaints about the bells have come from only a few disgruntled neighbors.
The church says that it is not possible to further reduce the power flowing to the bells. And even if the power could be reduced, the ringing would be so inaudible that the bells would hardly be worth operating, Murphy said.
"We've done as much as we can, according to the manufacturer," he said.
If St. John Neumann were elsewhere, it would be able to ring away. Prince William and Arlington counties allow a daytime maximum of 60 decibels. Montgomery County permits 65 decibels during the day.
Supervisor Catherine M. Hudgins (D-Hunter Mill) will host a community meeting at the church Dec. 11 to discuss the situation. The board could decide to overrule zoning officials and establish an exception for the church. But Hudgins sounded doubtful.
"What's melodious to some people is just not that way to others," she said.
zhelas
12-01-2006, 10:24 AM
It amazes me that the majority will bow down to the few who complain.
Aaysia
12-01-2006, 10:28 AM
:no: just... sad.
Eh I can't lie if I owned property by a church and their bells were ringing at 7:30 AM on a sunday I'd be annoyed.
CrystalTears
12-01-2006, 10:35 AM
Is nothing sacred anymore? :(
The first Sunday living in my house the bells woke me up. They startled me, actually. Now I'm used to them and barely notice them when I'm asleep. They're calming and nice when we're awake or just getting up from bed. We've even caught ourselves humming along. That was expected moving into a house near a church. I'd rather people move than to have the church bells stopped, but that's just me.
zhelas
12-01-2006, 10:35 AM
You could probably fart louder the allowed 55 decibels.
Why should the church have more rights in the community than than the residents? If I have people over and generate noise over the legal limit on a regular basis and a neighbor complains I'm going to be hit with a noise violation or at the very least asked to cease and desist.
zhelas
12-01-2006, 10:43 AM
Eh I can't lie if I owned property by a church and their bells were ringing at 7:30 AM on a sunday I'd be annoyed.
I used to live near train tracks. The train would come in and blow it's whistle after a while you just don't hear it anymore. If I had property near a church or any other religious organization, I would expect noise.
Makes you kind of wonder if it wasn't a Christian organization would these rules been enforced?
Ravenstorm
12-01-2006, 10:45 AM
Or maybe the church should just have paid attention to the law before they installed the new system? Nah, laws don't apply to them right?
Alfster
12-01-2006, 10:46 AM
Why should the church have more rights in the community than than the residents? If I have people over and generate noise over the legal limit on a regular basis and a neighbor complains I'm going to be hit with a noise violation or at the very least asked to cease and desist.
Yeah, no shit.
I don't care wtf they're praying for, stfu and let me sleep in on a sunday.
If it bothered you it would be well within your rights to complain about it and try and have it stopped. Just because you didn't doesn't mean other people shouldn't. Obviously the noise is bothering some people or this wouldn't be an issue. And I'm going to go with yes if this wasn't a religious institution it'd still be enforced.
CrystalTears
12-01-2006, 10:48 AM
Or maybe the church should just have paid attention to the law before they installed the new system? Nah, laws don't apply to them right?
Obviously it does since they haven't been able to ring their bells in 23 months.
I think hes probably referring to the fact that they installed a bell system capable of 75 decibels despite the legal limit being 55 and even when they downtweaked still didn't drop it to or below the legal limit. If I had to venture a guess I'd say that when they downgraded the system they were aware of the legal limit and still didn't adhere to it.
CrystalTears
12-01-2006, 10:52 AM
I'm not quick to assume that they were trying to be loud and go against the legal limit. I'm more inclined to believe that they weren't even paying attention to it and then it backfired on them when they started using them.
Ravenstorm
12-01-2006, 10:56 AM
I'm not assuming they did it deliberately either. But the fact is, they installed a system that violates the law and it applies to them just as it applies to anyone else. This is not a case of 200 year old church bells but an electronic system installed 2 years ago.
I don't think they were either initially or they wouldn't have installed a 75dB system to begin with, or so I'd like to think. I am however "quick to assume" that they probably field tested to see what the drops were and figured that 60 instead of the legal 55 was fine.
If you were told that you can't have volume in excess of 55dB when you were at 75dB you don't think when tweaking your system you'd find a way to get to 55dB?
zhelas
12-01-2006, 11:01 AM
I don't think they were either initially or they wouldn't have installed a 75dB system to begin with, or so I'd like to think. I am however "quick to assume" that they probably field tested to see what the drops were and figured that 60 instead of the legal 55 was fine.
If you were told that you can't have volume in excess of 55dB when you were at 75dB you don't think when tweaking your system you'd find a way to get to 55dB?
The county discovered that the bells registered at an average of 75 decibels (roughly equivalent to a vacuum cleaner at close range), which is considerably above the 55-decibel limit in residential areas.
The church reduced the power flowing to the three bells, which brought the reading down to 60 decibels, softer (about the sound of an air conditioner at 50 feet) but still above the limit.
I guess they need to use signal flags.
CrystalTears
12-01-2006, 11:03 AM
I honestly don't know how bells work. Maybe if they stopped one from working? I have no idea. I'm not going to presume to understand how to lower the decibels of King Kong sized bells. :D
Wait a minute. Are they actual bells or is it a recording/loudspeaker type sound projection system? I think the recording/loudspeaker system is just plain hokey and annoying in how it sounds as compared to actual bells. We have churches here in Houston that have one or the other... and the ones that draws the most complaints from residential areas are the loudspeakers.
My advise is use the money they would pay for additional fines for the noise and have the system tweaked to meet the required decibel limit. Its only electronics afterall.
Why should the church have more rights in the community than than the residents? If I have people over and generate noise over the legal limit on a regular basis and a neighbor complains I'm going to be hit with a noise violation or at the very least asked to cease and desist.
^^^ My thoughts exactly.
zhelas
12-01-2006, 11:09 AM
Singing birds make a hell of a racket. Vehicles driving up and down the street. Lawnmowers. Kids playing outside. Dogs barking.
In my honest opinion. Bells with the same decibels as a AC Unit that plays once a week will not kill you.
CrystalTears
12-01-2006, 11:11 AM
Well no, it's not once a week. It's three times during the weekdays, once on Saturday and five times on Sunday.
zhelas
12-01-2006, 11:19 AM
Try living near train tracks. Trains come 3x a day 7 days a week and blow their whistles at the crossings. It just blends into the background. It becomes harder and harder to hear them. You really have to listen for it.
Really, there are a lot of other things that go on in day to day life, at all hrs of the day, that are much louder than 55 decibels.
Sounds to me that the big issue are the Morning hrs. Okay no yard work allowed until after 9 am. No TV in the house. No one is allowed to drive their cars on the streets. Poison the song birds. De Bark the dogs. Kids need to be muzzled and tied up in the house since they can't play outside.
Sounds silly yes?
Skeeter
12-01-2006, 11:20 AM
If you're going to have a law it needs to be enforced. Most counties also have laws about when you can run a lawnmower.
Either enforce the law or get rid of the law, but don't make exceptions for someone.
zhelas
12-01-2006, 11:20 AM
If you're going to have a law it needs to be enforced. Most counties also have laws about when you can run a lawnmower.
Either enforce the law or get rid of the law, but don't make exceptions for someone.
FTW!
In my experience all the churches and other places of assembly I've been to in my area already get many local variances in their favor just so they can operate. I'm talking about things like parking. And as a general rule I'm not for or against that with that not because they are churches or some other religious institution but because they need these things generally in order to exist and obviously theres a demand for them.
However, when it comes to things like adhering to the legal noise limit and other things not necessary to the churches survival I really have a hard time understanding why a township should grant them a variance they wouldn't generally afford to the other members of that community.
Jesuit
12-01-2006, 11:23 AM
Maybe they could just amend the noise ordinance laws like they did in Michigan.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3358067/detail.html
Skirmisher
12-01-2006, 11:26 AM
Eh I can't lie if I owned property by a church and their bells were ringing at 7:30 AM on a sunday I'd be annoyed.
They really are not THAT loud.
And if you bought a home next to a church you should know going into the deal that churches have bells and not bitch when, shock of shocks, they ring.
It's like the assholes who buy homes up in wayne near Willowbrook mall here in NJ which is in a flood plain and floods to some degree like twice a year or so and then complaining about the flooding and wanting the state to spend hundreds of millions to build a huge flood tunnel for runoff. Hey, didn't you wonder why the house that normally would cost like 400k here in NJ cost you only 200k?
Newsflash...flood plains flood and Church bells ring.
It's a pretty ridiculous law, 55db is extremely quiet. Depending on how they measure it, 55db is quieter than a whisper, essentially the city did an end run to ban church bells.
If I bought a house and my neighbor had a legal/grandfathered in berm and caused some flooding on my property and I knew about it before purchasing. I'd agree that I don't have a right to complain but then if that neighbor later decides to take down that berm and build a new berm that was illegal and still caused my property to flood I think thats a valid time to complain and have the situation corrected.
Ravenstorm
12-01-2006, 11:33 AM
It's a pretty ridiculous law, 55db is extremely quiet. Depending on how they measure it, 55db is quieter than a whisper, essentially the city did an end run to ban church bells.
By having a law on the books that existed before the church installed a new system? Those bastards!
Skirmisher
12-01-2006, 11:36 AM
If I bought a house and my neighbor had a legal/grandfathered in berm and caused some flooding on my property and I knew about it before purchasing. I'd agree that I don't have a right to complain but then if that neighbor later decides to take down that berm and build a new berm that was illegal and still caused my property to flood I think thats a valid time to complain and have the situation corrected.
Wah wah wah....
It's a friggin church bell that rings three times a day i think they said... really, get over it.
Try living near train tracks. Trains come 3x a day 7 days a week and blow their whistles at the crossings. Thats so it will prevent killing people who dont pay attention crossing the tracks.
Really, there are a lot of other things that go on in day to day life, at all hrs of the day, that are much louder than 55 decibels.
But as a home owner you have the reasonable expectation to have a quality of life free from things such as noise pollution. Either the church abides by the 55 decibel rule set forth by the city government or it can move locations where there is no sound pollution ordinance. Here is clearly a case of the needs of the many (home owners) outweighing the needs of a few (church).
Sounds to me that the big issue are the Morning hrs. Okay no yard work allowed until after 9 am.
There are some neighborhood associations that have restrictions like these. People have the right to live their lives (legally) as they see fit in their own homes without intrusion from unwanted nuisances. Be it loud cars driving down the street, loud radios, loud church bells, and in some cases even loud/excessive aircraft noise near airports. The sanctity of home. Its a wonderful thing.
[quote]Originally Posted by Drew
It's a pretty ridiculous law, 55db is extremely quiet. Depending on how they measure it, 55db is quieter than a whisper, essentially the city did an end run to ban church bells.
Yea it's a huge conspiracy all those towns that you can find when you google 55 Decibels and Residential all got together to ban church bells.
zhelas
12-01-2006, 11:43 AM
I guarantee that Real Bells are extremely loud and far exceeded the 55 decibels. Now they bought an electronic system? Which they reduced the sounds to 60 decibels. No louder than a AC unit 50 feet away. 3x a week. :cry:
I guarantee most real church bells were probably grandfathered in to local ordinances as a preexisting condition. Adding a brand new electronic bell is not.
Skirmisher
12-01-2006, 11:47 AM
The sanctity of home. Its a wonderful thing.
Kelo V New London says otherwise.
TheEschaton
12-01-2006, 11:52 AM
Try living near train tracks. Trains come 3x a day 7 days a week and blow their whistles at the crossings. It just blends into the background. It becomes harder and harder to hear them. You really have to listen for it.
Really, there are a lot of other things that go on in day to day life, at all hrs of the day, that are much louder than 55 decibels.
Sounds to me that the big issue are the Morning hrs. Okay no yard work allowed until after 9 am. No TV in the house. No one is allowed to drive their cars on the streets. Poison the song birds. De Bark the dogs. Kids need to be muzzled and tied up in the house since they can't play outside.
Sounds silly yes?
The facts are different. A train has to blow its whistle by law, serving as a warning to get the fuck off the tracks.
Yard work - once a week.
Cars - have mufflers and serve a public utility.
TV is inside, and muffled to much less than 55dB.
Birds and dogs are FUCKING ANIMALS, and you can't stop them.
Kids are annoying brats and if you try and get them to shut up, you'll probably have child services on your ass for slapping your own kid.
Meanwhile, BELLS in a Church, elevated above the ground, in open space, and meant to project outwards, are completely extraneous, and not necessary, to the functioning of the Church. Maybe back in the day, when people didn't have alarm clocks (or clocks at all), they needed 'em, but not now.
-TheE-
Kelo V New London says otherwise.
Be more specific?
I dont see how this case applies to this thread.
CrystalTears
12-01-2006, 11:55 AM
It doesn't, really. But owning a home these days doesn't guarantee that you'll be comfortable and living to your standards. Heh.
Interesting article in Wikipedia about noise regulation, its history, and some specifics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_regulation
TheEschaton
12-01-2006, 11:58 AM
Kelo was an eminent domain case where the gov't is allowed to take Kelo's home to give it to private developers...it has nothing to do with this case, other than it "violates the sanctity of the home".
It is an interesting case, though.
-TheE-
Skirmisher
12-01-2006, 12:02 PM
Be more specific?
I dont see how this case applies to this thread.
You implied a home was a sanctum which is "an inviolably private place".
Hard to have a place be more violated than having ownership of it taken from you against your will.
I didn't even mention the various patriot act allowances that let agents enter your home and never even tell you they were there.
So I was simply saying you were incorrect.
TITLE 42 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sup_01_42.html) > CHAPTER 65 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sup_01_42_10_65.html) > § 4901Prev | Next (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00004902----000-.html)
§ 4901. Congressional findings and statement of policy
How Current is This? (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/HowCurrent.php/?tn=42&fragid=T42F04314&extid=usc_sec_42_00004901----000-&sourcedate=2005-12-27&proctime=Thu May 18 10:03:20 2006)(a) The Congress finds—
(1) that inadequately controlled noise presents a growing danger to the health and welfare of the Nation’s population, particularly in urban areas;
(2) that the major sources of noise include transportation vehicles and equipment, machinery, appliances, and other products in commerce; and
(3) that, while primary responsibility for control of noise rests with State and local governments, Federal action is essential to deal with major noise sources in commerce control of which require national uniformity of treatment.
(b) The Congress declares that it is the policy of the United States to promote an environment for all Americans free from noise that jeopardizes their health or welfare. To that end, it is the purpose of this chapter to establish a means for effective coordination of Federal research and activities in noise control, to authorize the establishment of Federal noise emission standards for products distributed in commerce, and to provide information to the public respecting the noise emission and noise reduction characteristics of such products.
You implied a home was a sanctum which is "an inviolably private place".
The implication was sanctity from noise pollution and or other nuisances. Not the Federal Government via the 5th Amendment. Especially since this thread and the discussion at hand concerns noise pollution, specifically relating to church bells and residential homeowners rights to reasonably expect to live in peace.
Hard to have a place be more violated than having ownership of it taken from you against your will.
No argument there, even with Bush's 2006 Executive Order limiting Eminent Domain cases that involve property being confiscated/forcefully purchased to be given over to another private entity.
I didn't even mention the various patriot act allowances that let agents enter your home and never even tell you they were there.
True, we know how all the complainants of loud church bells were deemed possible terrorists by our right-wing fanatical government and subjected to unwarranted search and seizures.
So I was simply saying you were incorrect.
:clap:
Sorry you had to go out on a limb to do that.
Stanley Burrell
12-01-2006, 12:37 PM
Yes. Those who complained were horned Pagan satyrs who have no place in voicing their opinion in the modern religious world concerning the issue... ...
The first words out of my mouth when I am woken up at 7 o'clock on the weekends by loud bell noises aren't exactly "Merry Christmas."
And how could a church willing to spend like that for state-of-the-art Moog synthesizer sound effects depicting Gothic clattering somehow believe that blaring shit like that wouldn't cause a problem?
Listening to Hip-hop music was a part of my:
tradition and
city atmosphere
Therefor, I am sure the loving Christians wouldn't mind the parking of my minivan in the Sacred Cross' visitor's lot pumping hymns from ODB's "Shimmy Shimmy Ya" from a set of Alpines at 75 decibels during Sunday services.
Praise the Lord! :banghead:
Yes. Those who complained were horned Pagan satyrs who have no place in voicing their opinion in the modern religious world concerning the issue... ...
The first words out of my mouth when I am woken up at 7 o'clock on the weekends by loud bell noises aren't exactly "Merry Christmas."
And how could a church willing to spend like that for state-of-the-art Moog synthesizer sound effects depicting Gothic clattering somehow believe that blaring shit like that wouldn't cause a problem?
Listening to Hip-hop music was a part of my:
and
Therefor, I am sure the loving Christians wouldn't mind the parking of my minivan in the Sacred Cross' visitor's lot pumping hymns from ODB's "Shimmy Shimmy Ya" from a set of Alpines at 75 decibels during Sunday services.
Praise the Lord!
:rofl:
You are the man. I would request you back up that track with Too Short's "Life Is Too Short".
Skirmisher
12-01-2006, 12:52 PM
:clap:
Sorry you had to go out on a limb to do that.
You were the one who made a mistake.
I merely corrected your error.
No need to be sorry.
You were the one who made a mistake.
I merely corrected your error.
No need to be sorry.
:lol:
If you say so.
Stanley Burrell
12-01-2006, 01:01 PM
:rofl:
You are the man. I would request you back up that track with Too Short's "Life Is Too Short".
I think Gospel explainining Invasion of the Flat Booty's divine message would teach a greater appreciation for the underprivileged, though...
Edited to Add - For some reason I thought you would never even know any Too $hort versus. You da mang back at you, esse.
Kembal
12-01-2006, 05:20 PM
Religious places of worship are basically exempt from most zoning requirements under federal law. (Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000) They can built wherever the congregation/board/etc. wants, even if the land is zoned to some other use, and if a municipality stops them because it's a religious place of worship, the municipality will be sued by DOJ.
What I don't know is whether the applicable federal law would cover this noise-pollution ordinance. Reading this explanation page (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/rluipaexplain.htm), I would think it would not, as the church is allowed to be built and allowed to operate. It's just not allowed to ring bells loudly.
- Rishi
Sean of the Thread
12-01-2006, 05:24 PM
Get your fucking bells out of my ear. Freedom of religion (your choice) isn't freedom of shoving your religion into my living room via bells.
ElanthianSiren
12-01-2006, 05:51 PM
My parents lived right across the street from a church in two different places I lived. I always found the bells nice, especially the noon ones. I never would have considered complaining about them, but i guess that's a legitimate complaint. W/E they never called the cops on me blasting industrial at the age of 16 or 17.
-M
Jazuela
12-01-2006, 06:26 PM
To whoever on page 3 - it isn't 3 times a week. It's 3 times a DAY, five days a week. Plus once on Saturday, and 5 times on Sunday starting at 7:30 in the morning. On a Sunday. Morning. At 7:30.
As for freedom of religion and zoning and all that kind of thing - they can make as much noise, as much mess, and as much of a crowd as they like. As long as the noise, mess, and crowd doesn't cross over onto MY property line.
I'm all for nice-sounding church bells ringing at noon every day. I think it's wonderful, and would love the church in town to do some neato kind of Christmasy bell thing for the parish...at noon, or around suppertime, on Christmas Day or Eve.
But if I have to hear bells at 7:30 in the morning on a Sunday you better believe I'll be making a lot more noise in the Town Hall than those bells are making while I'm trying to sleep.
We -do- have noise ordinances in our town, that forbid the use of lawnmowers and other loud machinery before 7AM weekdays, and 9AM on Sundays (except for emergency vehicle sirens). We also have a no straight-pipe law, which is applicable 24/7. We have a barking ordinance and policies for complaints about constant dog barking. And yes, the police WILL come if you call complaining about the party next door with the stereo speakers hung out the window into the back yard at full blast. And yes, they WILL come if they get complaints about some mother who can't control her kids, screaming at them for an hour.
It's a matter of common courtesy. You wouldn't want my alarm clock blaring loud enough for you to hear it at 7:30 in the morning on Sunday, just like I don't want the Parish Alarm Clock (read: church bells) ringing loud enough for me to hear it on a Sunday morning at 7:30.
Unless of course the church doesn't care whether or not their noise inconveniences or annoys anyone...but somehow I get the feeling that if they gave it a little thought, they'd care.
Artha
12-01-2006, 06:32 PM
I live less than a block away from a church. It has bells. They have never, not once, woken me up.
Latrinsorm
12-01-2006, 06:35 PM
Or maybe the church should just have paid attention to the law before they installed the new system?Do you know what the noise limits are (in decibels) for your town? Do you ever listen to music? I GUESS THE LAWS DON'T APPLY TO RAVENSTORMS!!!!!!!!111
Anyway, for anyone who's curious, 75 decibels is 100 times louder than 55 decibels, but the funny thing about decibels is they're a (logarithmic) unit of intensity, so they can only really be measured with respect to a certain volume (of space). That's one of the two main reasons why things that are farther away are quieter (the other being interference). Without a distance measurement, therefore, "55 decibels" is a meaningless measurement. If I measure this church giving off 55 decibels, it's a little (very) [monumentally] different than a dude standing in the parking lot measuring 55 decibels.
In any event, there is a chiming clock in my parents' house. It chimes once on the half hour and the hour on every hour. The clock has *never* woken me up, and it is considerably louder than the rickety old AC unit we jammed in the window every summer. I am an extremely light sleeper, and if I can sleep through (around) 18 chiming events a night, every night, it is hard for me to muster sympathy for people who have to deal with chiming events that are quieter and less frequent. I recognize that some people would rather not get used to it, but I also recognize the concept of priorities.
The simple way to solve this is to have each person in that particular town vote and have each vote be weighted by decibels measured at the house.
Cars - have mufflers and serve a public utility.What greater public utility is there than SAVING SOULS???
And how could a church willing to spend like that for state-of-the-art Moog synthesizer sound effects depicting Gothic clattering somehow believe that blaring shit like that wouldn't cause a problem?If you really think 60 dB is "blaring" at any proximity greater than contact, you must be back on t3h smack.
What there needs to be is a law against those landscaping crews at any hour of the day. I swear it sounds like a construction site when they show up. It really f-ups my nice sunny day with all the windows open.
Stanley Burrell
12-01-2006, 09:33 PM
60 dB
Re-read the original post?
And depending on pitch, timbre, noise carrying and insulation, 60 dB could bother a deaf person.
Latrinsorm
12-01-2006, 10:15 PM
"The church reduced the power flowing to the three bells, which brought the reading down to 60 decibels"
:)
Stanley Burrell
12-01-2006, 10:25 PM
Are you that ridiculous?
The simple way to solve this is to have each person in that particular town vote and have each vote be weighted by decibels measured at the house.
I believe I have a better and simpler way to solver this...
The church installs a bell with a legal sound output. Solved. And what do you know I saved the time and energy spent in polling an entire town and weighting their votes.
"The church reduced the power flowing to the three bells, which brought the reading down to 60 decibels"
:)
The Board of Supervisors asked the zoning staff this year to see whether the law could be amended to accommodate the church, whose bells ring at a volume slightly higher than the 55-decibel maximum permitted in residential areas.
They need to call their sound technician back to do the job correctly.
I believe I have a better and simpler way to solver this...
The church installs a bell with a legal sound output. Solved. And what do you know I saved the time and energy spent in polling an entire town and weighting their votes.
^^^
Yea that.
Methais
12-01-2006, 10:56 PM
You could probably fart louder the allowed 55 decibels.
I know I can.
radamanthys
12-01-2006, 11:04 PM
They're breaking the law.
If I killed your dog with a club... my rationale could be "shit, it was just a dumb mutt- get over it." But does that mean that i'm right? would you be a whiny bitch to complain about it?
The law stands for a reason.
I know I can.
See a doctor.
Latrinsorm
12-02-2006, 12:00 AM
Are you that ridiculous?60 dB isn't blaring, and 60 dB is what they would be doing if they were still noising it up.
And what do you know I saved the time and energy spent in polling an entire town and weighting their votes.I'd rather be morally justified than legally justified, personally.
They need to call their sound technician back to do the job correctly.The point was Stanley considered the level of noise produced to be "blaring", not that I considered 60 dB to be within legal limits. Also, the article states that for whatever reason the church can't make the last step from 60dB to 55dB.
I cannot stress enough how meaningless these measurements are devoid of range.
I cannot stress enough how meaningless these measurements are devoid of range.
No doubt the folks living in the next town over would agree with the church about its decibel rating NOT being a nuisance. HOWEVER, the neighbors living in the surrounding neighborhood might have a lot to differ with regards to range.
Again, if its a set of speakers, then a simple adjustment to the amperage going to said speakers would cause a reduction in volume. Absent the feasability of an amperage reduction, it would be nothing a box of socks, some duct tape, and some spray foam wont fix. Or they might consider boarding up a little more of the openings in the steeple or bell tower where the speakers are... or hang some blankets to dampen the projection of sound.
If its actual bells then modifications could be made to dampening the strikers or bell housing so as to reduce the reverbrations and resultant sound emanating from them... or use the boarding up/blanket method in the actual bell housing.
Nothing a little engineuity cant fix.
One would think that a church would not be so confrontational about something like this. Afterall, shouldnt they just 'turn the other cheek'?
I'd rather be morally justified than legally justified, personally.
I must have missed the lesson in school when they taught that voting on something made it more moral.
Tsa`ah
12-02-2006, 05:00 AM
I really don't care what people get used to ... not everyone will get used to an annoyance. That's why it's called an annoyance.
We had similar problems when we lived in Savoy. Lawn mowers going early on the weekend, new church with bells on Sunday, and suburban white kids blaring gangster rap from dual 18 inch subs at all hours.
The people finally tired and an ordinance was passed by 83% of the property tax paying population. Basically a 2 fold noise ordinance and curfew. It prohibited lawn mowers and other power tools after 10pm to 10am on the weekends, 9-9 on weekdays. It also set a db level of 60 (with the exception of mowers and tools).
Members of the newly built Baptist church raised a stink, but out of the congregation of 400, only 75 lived in Savoy and of those 75 maybe 20 payed property taxes.
I'm sorry, but a church should not be given any special consideration ... no more than suburban white kids blaring loud gangster rap. One is also in error comparing a situation you chose (living next to railroad tracks or whatever) to a situation that was forced on you.
You are also in error when you suggest that a 5 db overage should be ignored. People get ticketed for driving 5 miles over the speed limit, people get fined and jailed for a BAC even slightly above the legal limit, people get fined and jailed for exceeding game limits ... all of those hinge on being caught. People in those situation have something in their favor ... mobility. A church that failed to adhere to noise laws is far less mobile.
Sean of the Thread
12-02-2006, 07:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmvjwOgVoVs
Skeeter
12-02-2006, 10:33 AM
I love Bubb Rubb. I also love how he blows through that stop sign on the way out of the muffler shop.
Skirmisher
12-02-2006, 10:52 AM
Eh, people are arguing just to argue I think.
I can't believe that church bells are such a major menace to our peace and quality of life.
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