Quran Tangent

[Gan]

You hear the 72 virgin thing all over the press.

What is the actual translation? Is it direct or is it an interpretation thing?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

You hear the 72 virgin thing all over the press.

What is the actual translation? Is it direct or is it an interpretation thing?

The Quran, like the bible.. has been translated a lot.

I forget which comedian it was but he poked fun at the 72 virgins awaiting in heaven thing.. saying it would be hilarious if it was really 72 Virginians and when a suicide bomber dies and go to heaven, a bunch of the colonial founding fathers are up there whacking him with their canes.

[xtc]

You hear the 72 virgin thing all over the press.

What is the actual translation? Is it direct or is it an interpretation thing?

Yes the press quotes it all the time. 72 is like saying saying 100's it means limitless. I don't think they specify the number 72 in the Quran but in a Haadith.

I think a better translation of the Quranic verse would be "pure one" or "angels" rather than virgins. This is available for all Muslims not just Martyrs. It should be noted that suicide is against Islam and as such a suicide bomber is not a martyr.

You will forgive me, I went to Mosque as a child but I never memorised the Quran and I never learned Arabic. This is to the best of my knowledge but I believe it is correct.

[xtc]

The Quran, like the bible.. has been translated a lot.

I forget which comedian it was but he poked fun at the 72 virgins awaiting in heaven thing.. saying it would be hilarious if it was really 72 Virginians and when a suicide bomber dies and go to heaven, a bunch of the colonial founding fathers are up there whacking him with their canes.

Actually the Quran differs from the Bible in this regard. The Quran is in its original Arabic text and hasn't been translated anywhere near as much as the Bible.

I think technically you aren't suppose to translate the Quran but you are to learn Arabic to study the Quran.

[Tsa`ah]

1) The Qu'ran cannot be changed, and has not been changed, from its original source.

And the proof of this is?

It's printed text on paper. The earliest employees of Xerox were the actual Xerox copiers.

[xtc]

And the proof of this is?

It's printed text on paper. The earliest employees of Xerox were the actual Xerox copiers.

They have the original manuscripts in Arabic. Unlike the Bible the entire Quran was written in Arabic. Translations came much later and the original Quran exists today. Some Muslims would argue that translations are not the Quran. A Muslim is to learn Arabic in order to study the Quran.

[Xaerve]

Xtc is correct. Not only has the originality of the Qur'an been verified by oral traditions in Islamic societies, original manuscripts have been maintained nearly since its inception.

The focus always has been on the inerrancy of the Qur'an as the LITERAL world of God, whereas the Bible is not always viewed as such. Bible interpretations tend to be more objective, which current Qur'anic interpretations are now leaning towards. Turabi in Sudan is a leading proponent of a push of this sorts. He's been labeled as the Martin Luther of Islam for his thoughts on the objectivity and validity of parts of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

[Kranar]

Yeah, the very first Qu'ran is in Turkey. Unlike Judaism which is ancient compared to Islam, Islam is only 1400 years old and so texts from that era, while rare, are certainly nothing phenomenal. Afterall, many texts from much older eras are still in existence today. Furthermore, Islam is virtually based entirely on this text so its preservation was of critical importance.

While it is acceptable to translate the Qu'ran into other languages, only the original Qu'ran written in Arabic is considered the definitive source.

As to the 72 virgins thing, it is not in the Qu'ran.

Thing to keep in mind about Islam is that there are two components to the religion; there is aspect that deals with the law and natural philosophy, which is layed out in the Qu'ran, and then there are the traditions, customs and practices of people who are Muslim, which are passed down from generation to generation in what are called Hadith's.

For example, while I am Muslim, I don't follow any of the cultural practices of Islam and ultimately it is not required of one to do so. Some Muslims swear by adhering to these Hadith's, and others are somewhere in between.

[xtc]

Wow I didn't realise there were other Muslims on the board!

Like Kranar I do not follow the traditions of Islam. I do not keep Halal and am a walking definition of Haraam.

[Tsa`ah]

Eh, I beg to differ.

The "original" is the original copy from my understanding.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html

You can adhere to the belief that the Quran you have today is unaltered from the original as presented by Muhammed ... but it is just belief.

[Latrinsorm]

The Koran was written down very shortly after Muhammed's death. The process used was pretty rigorous (the website glosses over the particulars). To some extent you can doubt everything, but I'm pretty convinced the Koran is very close to or is a collection of the exact words of Muhammed. Whether they're a recitation of divine monologues or not, I don't know.

In short, saying "it is just belief" is like saying it's "just belief" for me to think that when I let go of a penny it will fall.

[xtc]

Eh, I beg to differ.

The "original" is the original copy from my understanding.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html

You can adhere to the belief that the Quran you have today is unaltered from the original as presented by Muhammed ... but it is just belief.

It isn't just a belief, Islam has the original manuscript. The prophet went over it word by word with his scribes to make sure it was perfect. Each copy of the Quran is identical in Arabic. A translation is not a true Quran.

[Wezas]

Robin williams said the 72 virginians joke.

[Xaerve]

Eh, I beg to differ.

The "original" is the original copy from my understanding.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html

You can adhere to the belief that the Quran you have today is unaltered from the original as presented by Muhammed ... but it is just belief.


If your only basis for argument is that above linked website, then you're very uninformed on the subject. An argument can't be justified upon a quick google search...at least not always! That website glosses over much of the Qur'anic history that is central to the preservation of the text. Kranar's post is 100% accurate.

Its ironic that you're arguing that the Qur'an has potentially changed so much, while the majority of individuals always point out its inflexibility when discussing it use in Political Islam in particular.

[Latrinsorm]

The prophet went over it word by word with his scribes to make sure it was perfect.The prophet was dead (for 19 or so years) when it was written, and he wasn't very literate anyway. The tradition is he completed the Koran with his dying breath. I still think Tsa`ah's level of skepticism is unwarranted (what else is new), but Muhammed couldn't have fact-checked the written Koran anymore than Jesus could have fact-checked the written New Testament.

[Kranar]

Sure, someone can deny that the Qu'ran is not the original but most scholars, even those who are not Muslim do agree that the Qu'ran is unaltered from the original source.

This is not such an incredible or phenomenal achievement, there are SEVERAL texts that date back to 600 AD, and heck texts from over 2000 years ago that have been preserved.

The main advantage that the Qu'ran has over ancient texts, and one that has helped in its preservation, is that it was written in a language that is still widely in use today.

But I mean, yes, technically you can believe that the Qu'ran was altered in the same way that you'd believe that perhaps Plato's The Republic was altered or Euclid's The Elements (both written 2300 years ago!)

Pretty much all Muslim's, and all those who are familiar with Islam, however, understand that the Qu'ran is unaltered, and while it's an important aspect of our religion that we maintain the original text, it isn't some kind of rocket science or considered a monumental achievement.

[HarmNone]

I firmly believe that the Qu'ran is unaltered, as long as it remains in its original language. When it is translated, however, there are going to be translation errors. I had a translated version years ago (don't know what happened to it, darn it!), but the locals quickly informed me that my version was "adulterated" and not worth the paper it was printed on.

I think another thing that's confusing to Westerners is that parts of the Qu'ran are interpeted by various Islamic clerics, and these interpretations differ through the various schools of thought within Islam.

[xtc]

The prophet was dead (for 19 or so years) when it was written, and he wasn't very literate anyway. The tradition is he completed the Koran with his dying breath. I still think Tsa`ah's level of skepticism is unwarranted (what else is new), but Muhammed couldn't have fact-checked the written Koran anymore than Jesus could have fact-checked the written New Testament.

Mohamed would declare the revelation from God and instruct his companions Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu to write it down. Then he would have each companion read back the line to make sure it was accurate.

[Tsa`ah]

The prophet was dead (for 19 or so years) when it was written, and he wasn't very literate anyway. The tradition is he completed the Koran with his dying breath. I still think Tsa`ah's level of skepticism is unwarranted (what else is new), but Muhammed couldn't have fact-checked the written Koran anymore than Jesus could have fact-checked the written New Testament.

You're whole post validates any skepticism.

This isn't a jab at Islam, Muhammad, or anything else. I'm merely pointing out that you can believe the Quran you read today is an exact copy of the original as recited by Muhammad, but outside of belief you have no historical or scientific support that you Quran is indeed an exact copy. You only have proof that it is indeed an exact copy of what is believed to be the original.

[Back]

One thing I find interesting is the talk of the 12th Imam. I’ve heard it is believed he disappeared in the early 1900s and when he returns Jesus (who is a respected prophet in Islam) will be at his side.

[Latrinsorm]

Tsa`ah, I'm not sure what sort of evidence counts as "historical" to you if history doesn't. I guess we can't really go anywhere from there.

[Tsa`ah]

History is written by the victors or, in the absence of war, those who hold the power. After all, we were taught plenty about the pilgrims, Plymouth rock, the natives, and the first "thanks giving" as children and in turn were sort of floored when we learned what was really history.

I've yet to find any evidence that the Quran (see original copy) is indeed exactly as Muhammad recited it. One can only site faith and belief in this matter and not fact. There is also a lack of provided proof (outside of belief) by those who would claim it is indeed a copy verbatim as Muhammad recited.

We can concede to what is accepted by scholars ... then again we all know the earth is indeed spherical in shape and revolves around the sun. Where as it was widely accepted as fact in the past the universe revolved around a flat earth.

Like wise we can accept that the scribes, and those who ordered the scribes, who put Muhammad's words to rock, paper, scroll, and skin had no interest in person gain that could be achieved through manipulating a fledging theological belief structure. Yet the history of many other religions has shown us that there are always clergy at the roots of theological corruption.

Personal gain and corruption aside, there is always human error.

[Tisket]

You hear the 72 virgin thing all over the press.

What is the actual translation? Is it direct or is it an interpretation thing?

I think, considering the oppressive subservience with which some (NOT ALL) muslim men treat their women, that it would indeed be fitting to have 72 virgins waiting for them on the other side...72 male virgins.

[Xaerve]

There is no real point to continue in this discussion, as Lat said. You're speaking very generally now about "History." I'd also like to warn that the 'internet research' that you're doing on the subject is not the best way to find out legitimate information about the Qur'an.

[Apathy]

I think, considering the oppressive subservience with which some (NOT ALL) muslim men treat their women, that it would indeed be fitting to have 72 virgins waiting for them on the other side...72 male virgins.

Not funny.

[Tisket]

Not funny.

Good thing then that entertaining you isn't high on my list of priorities...I'll try not to lose sleep over this. Really. Moron.