Slash, Crush, Puncture

[Back]

Anyone have or know where I can find info on slash, crush and puncture damage factors against the various AsGs?

We know crush works best against heavier/plate armors and slash/puncture is best against no armor/light leathers. Some weapons have two or three of these types and I am sure the damage factors of these weapons vs AsGs has been averaged. But crunched the numbers on these three factors?

[Bobmuhthol]

Damage factors are uniform, so I don't know what you're talking about.

[Back]

Damage factors are uniform, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Ok, I am still a noob at this stuff. I’ve seen damage factors for each of the weapon bases. But, I know that some weapons can do more than one type of damage. A longsword for example can do slash, crush or puncture damage. What I want to know is has anyone crunched the numbers for damage factors on those specific types of damage, not just the weapons themselves.

[Apathy]

I think he means the extra damage from crits.

All crits are derived by something like base damage/armor type * randomizer = crit.

Base damage, like Bob said, is a constant. No matter which method the weapon (slash, crush, pierce) uses, it uses the same decimal formula (damage factor) to calculate the raw damage from the endroll.

Then the damage divided by the crit divisor for the armor, I don't know these numbers, but I believe plate is something like every 11 raw damage = crit rank while robes is like 4 raw damage = crit rank.

Then its randomized and you have your crit.

All crits come with certain damage. In general, piercing does the least damage while being the most lethal. Crush does the most damage while being the least lethal. Slash is in between.

I'm sure someone has actual numbers but this has always worked well enough for me.

[Latrinsorm]

Crit type has nothing to do with raw damage. A longsword has the same DF for a particular armor group regardless of if it happens to slash, puncture, or crush.

Crit type is only relevant for crit damage. A particular crit rank will generally have different damage and different wound rank when you compare multiple damage types. Usually people only care about this with regards to fatal wounds; for example, people use a dagger to ambush the eye and not a cudgel because slash rank 5 and up and puncture rank 4 and up will cause a lethal eye wound (while crush requires rank 7 and up). The differences in damage itself are considered negligible. As a general rule, slash and crush are pretty much the same amount of crit damage and puncture lags behind somewhat.

Crit damage is constant for a given crit rank and crit type unless redux is present (and only one creature has shown signs of having redux, so don't worry about this). However, crit divisor varies for different armor coverages, meaning it requires more raw and phantom damage to get up to the higher crit ranks (and thus crit damages). It is not correct to say that crush does more damage versus heavier armors. There is a trend for weapons that predominantly do crush damage (c.f. mauls) to fare better against heavier armors as compared to slashing or puncturing weapons (c.f. tridents), but the crush crit damage itself doesn't care what armor the target is wearing at all.

[Latrinsorm]

The exact mechanism for crit rank selection is as follows:

(raw damage +/- phantom damage (from padding and weighting)) / (crit divisor), truncated, gives the maximum crit rank.
Maximum crit rank divided by 2, rounded up, gives minimum crit rank.
Possible crit ranks range from minimum crit rank to maximum crit rank, inclusive, with an equal chance of any possible crit rank occurring.

Crit divisors for none/skin/clothing, soft leather, rigid leather (scale), chain, and plate are as follows: 5, 6, 7, 9, 11.

[AestheticDeath]

Crit damage is constant for a given crit rank and crit type unless redux is present (and only one creature has shown signs of having redux, so don't worry about this).

I am pretty sure I encountered some bandits on an AG task that had redux. They were seriously hard to kill with a bow.

[GuildRat]

http://www.sildraug.com/id23.html

A quick guide to DFs in the game.

[Back]

I just looked at play.net and noticed I was negligent in the titling of this thread. There is another damage type... grappling.

But anyway...


It is not correct to say that crush does more damage versus heavier armors. There is a trend for weapons that predominantly do crush damage (c.f. mauls) to fare better against heavier armors as compared to slashing or puncturing weapons (c.f. tridents), but the crush crit damage itself doesn't care what armor the target is wearing at all.

Ok, so if I deciphered this right, you are saying these four types of damage types only matter at the crit level.

So even against plate, a slashing or puncturing weapon has a lower threshold to crit vs crush (grapple?) and that makes it a better weapon?

[Back]

http://www.sildraug.com/id23.html

A quick guide to DFs in the game.

A great table. Thank you!!! A nicely formatted table of information makes all the difference in being able to understand it. The Coven needs a better webpage builder. Kudos to the table maker.

But my question is...

Many of those weapons do different damage types, i.e. slash, crush, puncture, or grapple. Is there a table that analyzes those specific types of damage vs AsGs, or does that even matter?

[Artha]

Damage factor determines raw damage when multiplied by the end roll - 100. Raw damage determines crit rank based on armor. Crit rank adds some extra damage in based on severity. IIRC, crush kills soonest (except for eye shots?) but does the least extra damage. Puncture does the most, but it's super hard to crit kill anything (except for eye shots). Slash is a middle-ground option, and grapple is probably like unbalance crits.

[StrayRogue]

Puncture crits deaths on the lowest crit rank but otherwise sucks.

[Artha]

Yeah, I thought I might be backwards.

[Apathy]

A great table. Thank you!!! A nicely formatted table of information makes all the difference in being able to understand it. The Coven needs a better webpage builder. Kudos to the table maker.

But my question is...

Many of those weapons do different damage types, i.e. slash, crush, puncture, or grapple. Is there a table that analyzes those specific types of damage vs AsGs, or does that even matter?

No. The damage factor of the weapon, raw damage from the endroll, and crit rank is calculated before the damage type.

[Latrinsorm]

So even against plate, a slashing or puncturing weapon has a lower threshold to crit vs crush (grapple?) and that makes it a better weapon?Assuming both weapons have the same Damage Factor, the puncture weapon will crit kill when the eyes are hit at a much lower endroll. Body part is key here. Puncture can get guaranteed eye-kill, but not guaranteed head-kill, and crush is the other way around.

I'm not sure where people got the idea that slash is a middle damage type. It's usually indiscernable from crush in terms of crit damage.

Deciding which weapon is "better" depends on a lot more than just damage type. I'd even go so far as to say that unless you're an ambusher (from the shadows) going up against a lightly (nonplate) armored foe, you're probably better off with a crush-only weapon. Why? Crush can get a guaranteed kill to the head, heads are easier to hit than eyes, and some of the weapons that are crush-only have significantly higher DFs than the traditional puncture weapons.

When doing a weapon base comparison, six factors are important: Hunting style, target, DF, weapon speed, damage type, and AvD. Lances have very high DFs, but if you're a pure thrown user they're pretty much useless. Estocs have very good puncture rates, but if you're a TWC mstriker that's not going to help you very much.

The grapple crit type only occurs (on the player side) for the throwing net, which is by far the worst weapon in GemStone. I don't know if grapple and unbalance are the same crit chart.