Tsin: How does he ruin the game?

[Lysander]

Disclaimer: I don't want this thread to be a flame only thread. This should be a rational and illuminative discussion about why people such as Tsin ruin GS and what could be done to stop people like him (if they are even a problem) from further eroding the game's value.

Arguement: Tsin ruins the game by approaching GS as a business and not as a player who genuinely wishes to play the game for entertainment value only.

Questions:

The main:

A.)In what ways does he ruin the game for you personally? (Please, provide some evidence if you can)

B.)Do you believe that the things he does has an impact on the game's entertainment value? If so, how?

C.) Do you believe Simutronics management would have a way in dealing with alleged problem characters such as Tsin?

Further thoughts:

A.) Do you believe that Tsin is really the problem or just the symptoms of more rooted contagion in GS (aka the real money market for game items)?

B.)If Tsin disappears, will another character(s) take his place?

C.) If you can see Tsin leave voluntarily will you be more happy, less happy, or indifferent about your gameplay?

Thank you.

[Jolena]

I don't view Tsin as a problem for the GemstoneIV gaming experience, but I do think he's a prick. That's all I really have to say on it.

[StrayRogue]

Couldn't give a shit.

[stallion4]

Agreed with Jolena..if he wasn't such a cocky prick he'd probably be a lot better off as far as how he's viewed by his peers. He plays the "it's my RP" card..problem is he does it out of the game just as much in game. He loves himself when it comes to anything involving GS. He lies, cheats, and steals when it comes to his "merchanting"..everyone knows of his past bullshit and the scams he's done to people. My outlook is that if you wanna do your little money making thing with multiple characters goin then go right ahead and burn away your days plopped in front of a computer screen...but don't be a dick to the vast majority of people in the game. I don't know the person behind Tsin..but with his actions/words/personality you can kinda get a feel for the type of person he is outside of the fantasy crap. Dude needs a hug.

[StrayRogue]

Exactly. If Tsin wants to be the best at a computer game. Fine. If he wants to spend 12 hours a day in front of a screen playing said game. Fine.

I'd much rather have a life beyond the PC. I'd rather have friends, fun, sex, and a future.

[Rolis]

Yea.. I don't know the guy but I think if anyone is wanting to put in the time. If he isn't cheating then I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

[Apathy]

Why would you make a thread like this? Do you have the hots for Tsin or something? If 1 person can ruin a game for you, you're a crying baby.

Tsin is no worse than all the "been playing since it was $3 hour crap and I can't believe the way this is going!" whiners on the official boards, probably even less so.

[StrayRogue]

Tsin is no worse than all the "been playing since it was $3 hour crap and I can't believe the way this is going!" whiners on the official boards, probably even less so.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for this.

[ELO]

I think it's sad he's wasting his life playing a text based role playing game for 16 hours a day.

Edited to add: He spends 16 hours a day in GS, and still can't role play to save his life.

[Apathy]

What is reasoning?

Seriously = Tsin pays $x so he can hoard crap and sell it for money.
These people pay $x so they can play a game for enjoyment, but instead just whine on the official boards, act snobbish to newer players, and generally give the game a bad rep. If you were brand new to GS, and went on those boards, and read through the hundreds of negative posts made by what can be considered a small but significant percent of the population, what would you think? "Man, if the game is really like this why would I want to play?" Boom, another customer lost.

+what ELO said

[Latrinsorm]

The difference is Celtar and co., no matter how annoying they are (very), don't actually lie to and cheat people. You could try and make the case that poetically speaking they "cheat" you out of your enjoyment or time, but that's playing a little fast and loose with language.

It's probably not accurate to say Tsin ruins the game, but it's even less accurate to say Tsin's on equal moral footing with the collective old farts.

[StrayRogue]

Heh, and here's you telling me to stop making sweeping generalizations or "stereotyping" people. But I'll let that little blurt of hypocrisy slide.

While I'm sure there is some merit to your argument, you're making a number of mistakes within it.
1) I'd guess that there is a good percentile of players who don't read the boards.
2) I don't see what being in the pay-per-hour days has to do with being a IG snobbish twat or a whiney board whore.
3) You fail to see that a lot of the problems that these people whine about are problems that Tsin happens to take to extremes. Account sales. Cheating. OOCness. Etc.

[TheEschaton]

I don't think he's a problem, because, truth be told, he doesn't really affect the player population all that much. Hunting OTF, I only ever interact with him if I die and he rescues me, for which I'm grateful for the insta-raise from his crew moreso than I'm aggrevated that it's more like a mechanical process than an actual attempt to raise someone in Silverthreaded's deity's name.

The only negative effect he really has on the game is that he owns some of the most uber l33t gear in the game, most of it unique, and if you ever hope to own one, you have to deal with his lying, wheeling-and-dealing, seedy salesman ways.

-TheE-

[Apathy]

No problem, it's just an opinion. And I didn't say everyone who payed per hour :), I said everyone who used that fact to add credibility to their whining.

I believe negativity encourages negativity. So, maybe I'm wrong and it is possible that it does stem from Tsin, but I fail to see any positivity coming from it, simply perpetuation.

and +2 points for your excellent use of the word twat.

[stallion4]

Sad part is..he's probably sitting here reading all this shit posted about HIM and feeling fantastic about himself because he's got people upset or up in arms and talking about HIM. Probably due to the fact he's useless in real life and this is where he gets his kicks. Pathetic.

Props to you Stray for the post about, fun, sex, etc...We all know Tsinster ain't having any of that.

[stallion4]

Text based computer sex does NOT count people!

[ELO]

Text based computer sex does NOT count people!

Too bad. According to Tsin, GS girls throw themselves at him.

[Makkah]

Tsin is sleazy. He's the used car salesman of Gemstone. He uses mechanics and OOC tactics to get ahead in the game (which a lot of people do). He's constantly badgering players and actual GMs about purchasing his shit or giving him free stuff/opportunities.

That said... even as he's among the worst of the worst, he's NOT unignoreable for fuck's sake. If he mucks up your GS universe, squelch him. I know many that have/do.

As TheE said, the only real standing effect he has is hoarding a buncha good items (which he doesn't have as many as people think). Other than that, let the dude do what he does while you're out living the high life, banging models, selling kilos of blow, making movies, rapping, and other Seany-like stuff.

[Shalla]

Exactly.

[Skirmisher]

Tsin is sleazy. He's the used car salesman of Gemstone. He uses mechanics and OOC tactics to get ahead in the game (which a lot of people do). He's constantly badgering players and actual GMs about purchasing his shit or giving him free stuff/opportunities.

That said... even as he's among the worst of the worst, he's NOT unignoreable for fuck's sake. If he mucks up your GS universe, squelch him. I know many that have/do.

...


Sounds about right.

[Sean]

Tsin's a bigger attention whore than Klaive and threads like this just reinforce it. If you really want to know peoples opinions on Tsin and how he effects the game just use the search function.

[vontez]

I don't really have a problem with Tsin, the way the game is, anyone can invest the same amount of cash he did by buying a capped rogue and wizard for a G or so, and farm OTF. He puts in the time, so he should get the fruits of his labor, and everyone else who plays more casually shouldn't get as much. I'm still more peeved that I have to pay twice as much than I do if I want to be premium to get any chance at an alteration, or pay 50 bucks for a ticket to an ebon's gate to get some nice item. I think simu should train more GM's, because there are certainly people willing to GM, and that way there can be more GM interactions, more travelling merchants, to spice up the game a little.

[fallenSaint]

Not goin to bother reading through all this so sorry if its a repeat, I think the worst way he ruins the game if how many people he stirs up enough to start threads such as this.

[CrystalTears]

Not goin to bother reading through all this so sorry if its a repeat, I think the worst way he ruins the game if how many people he stirs up enough to start threads such as this.

QFT. You're giving him the attention he obviously likes. You're giving him free advertising. If you don't trust him, don't deal with him. He ruins the game for you if you let it.

[bubbauno]

Thanks for the ego boost!! By the way the only reason I play is to RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU!!

If your gaming experience can be affected by one person, you are in need of some serious therapy. Especially when 99% of you people have NEVER ever had personal dealings with me, and you base your entire argument on opinions of PC board basher freaks, allegations and rumors.

In the past year i've moved over 10 billion worth of items to a hundred different people.. Out of all of those deals only one person (Mario) believes he was cheated, when in fact he fails to mention he asked for and accepted the compensation willingly.. You will never hear about the other 99 people that are now walking around with some of the best stuff in the game, you only hear about the one jackass who constantly complains about how he was supposedly ripped off, when he was the one who fucked up..

If you really think I ruin your gaming experience, AND i've actually sold you something or talked with you for more than 5 minutes, i'm really sorry.. But you need to get over it, it's a fucking GAME, and if I ruin it for you then QUIT.. I can guarantee the majority of people that i'm friends with think i'm improving it for them by helping out with everything they could possibly want, because I have everything to give.

[Lysander]

I apologize if I gave anyone the impression that I'm trying to rally advertisement for Tsin. But I would like to firmly say that this is not my intention. However, to shed some light as to why I began this thread.

I began playing GS during middle school some 16 years back. I have been playing off and on ever since and only recently seriously returned to GS. During the late nineties I personally became very wealthy. How does this all tie into GS?

Well, to be forward, I'am considering purchasing Simutronics and making it a subsidiary of a publicly traded software (game) company which I own a significant share in. The purchase would be to address my concern with where the Gemstone and also Dragon Realms games are heading but more prominently it would be for nostalgic reasons. But, please do not read this as an eventual changing of ownership. To date, I have not officially courted Simutronics Corporation with an offer nor do I plan to without further inquiry.

Anyhow, please continue with the discussion and try to address some of the questions I have provided in my initial post. Thank you.

[Makkah]

I highly doubt Simu would be interested in selling now. Not with how much weight they're putting into Hero's Journey. You might want to wait and see if HJ flops. If so, they might be willing to bail...

[stallion4]

Thanks for the ego boost!! By the way the only reason I play is to RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU!! .



Fantastic! Now you don't have to feel guilty about eating another 342 krispy kremes! WOOTWOOT!

[Tyrael]

It's amazing to me that one person can bring this much arguing to a board. To think that one person could effect a game in such a way that this many people would be angry is outrageous. I've played Gemstone for more than 10 years as more than 10 characters and have 0 involvement with Tsin other than hunting in the same location. If you think he is such a bad guy salesman, don't buy his wares. If you think he's such a prick, don't talk to him. Personally I think there are far worse players in GS than Tsin.

[Boris]

You might want to wait and see if HJ flops

I'm certain HJ will flop or at least not be uber popular. It would depend upon how much money they got synched into the project. But yeah if HJ goes bust I think Simu is going to be easy prey for a bigger company if not go out of business altogether.

[StrayRogue]

You might want to wait and see if HJ flops

I'm certain HJ will flop or at least not be uber popular. It would depend upon how much money they got synched into the project. But yeah if HJ goes bust I think Simu is going to be easy prey for a bigger company if not go out of business altogether.

To be honest, your perceptions of the game have not been anything but off or plain wrong so far, so I'm going to take this with a grain of salt.

As for Tsin: Beyond Tayvin, I don't think all those people you call "friends" probably won't consider YOU as one of them.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Someone compared Tsin to Hitler in the IRC chat during the Fest, and I can't say when I have laughed more.. besides maybe some rants of GM HATERPANTS. But still.

People were saying how he ruined the auction and etc etc etc, and how he ruined going to merchants.

Personally, I found the people who blathered on and talked in annoying accents and played their instruments in silenced rooms to be the most annoying, not someone who we knew had like, 7 characters there. The way I see it, so what? He paid for those tickets, he got it. To me the alternative is to get rid of accounts from the same household and that's just screwing over people like me, with a boyfriend who plays, and many others with roommates and SO's and children who play Gemstone.

There is so much non-roleplaying in Elanthia, so much item hoarding-and-reselling, that I think it's ridiculous for people to focus in on Tsin the way they do. He is NOT the only one who does it and he is NOT the only one who has had angry customers, but because he makes the most money, he's targeted. I think it's sad if you're going to let someone ruin your roleplay experience and then blame it on stuff about this someone that is prevalent in a good chunk of Elanthia characters anyway.

[Latrinsorm]

It's amazing to me that one person can bring this much arguing to a board.By PC standards, this is a malnourished lightweight of an argument. Caiylania and I alone once had like a 5 page argument.
If you think he is such a bad guy salesman, don't buy his wares. If you think he's such a prick, don't talk to him.Some people don't subscribe to the "so long as he's not screwing me personally over, whatever he does is ok" school of thought. A few people do. If you really think about it, I think you'll find that it's more coherent to try and stop a crook from robbing everyone than trying to stop a crook from robbing just you.

[Gan]

A.)In what ways does he ruin the game for you personally? He doesnt

B.)Do you believe that the things he does has an impact on the game's entertainment value? No, unless he brings OOC into the game; which he has only once.

C.) Do you believe Simutronics management would have a way in dealing with alleged problem characters such as Tsin? If Tsin does not break TOS then he does not need to be dealt with.

Further thoughts:

A.) Do you believe that Tsin is really the problem or just the symptoms of more rooted contagion in GS (aka the real money market for game items)? I dont view the money market of GS resources a problem.

B.)If Tsin disappears, will another character(s) take his place? Of course, some already exist, just in a lesser state of public awareness.

C.) If you can see Tsin leave voluntarily will you be more happy, less happy, or indifferent about your gameplay? Indifferent since his presence in the places I hunt has minimal impact on my ability to hunt; and because I do not intend on spending the resources necessary to obtain the items he has for sale.

[Malok]

In the past year i've moved over 10 billion worth of items

At $15 per 1 million silvers - puts you at $150,000.

Quite a decent sum. Tax exempt, I'm sure. :)

[Drew2]

Just because he values something he sold at 300 mil doesn't make it worth that.

Take his "10 billion" with a grain of salt.

He also didn't necessarily sell 10 billion in silvers either.

[Celephais]

At $15 per 1 million silvers - puts you at $150,000.

Quite a decent sum. Tax exempt, I'm sure. :)

"Moved" is entirely different than "accumulated". While he very well may have, buying something for 20 mil and selling for 30 mil is "moving" 30 mil, but only earned him 10.

[Stunseed]

Let alone the items only brokered. Where he may have only gotten percentage, instead of lump sum.

[StrayRogue]

And it costs $600.00 a month to run the little empire.

[TheEschaton]

I apologize if I gave anyone the impression that I'm trying to rally advertisement for Tsin. But I would like to firmly say that this is not my intention. However, to shed some light as to why I began this thread.

I began playing GS during middle school some 16 years back. I have been playing off and on ever since and only recently seriously returned to GS. During the late nineties I personally became very wealthy. How does this all tie into GS?

Well, to be forward, I'am considering purchasing Simutronics and making it a subsidiary of a publicly traded software (game) company which I own a significant share in. The purchase would be to address my concern with where the Gemstone and also Dragon Realms games are heading but more prominently it would be for nostalgic reasons. But, please do not read this as an eventual changing of ownership. To date, I have not officially courted Simutronics Corporation with an offer nor do I plan to without further inquiry.

Anyhow, please continue with the discussion and try to address some of the questions I have provided in my initial post. Thank you.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

<pauses for breathe...>

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[ELO]

At $15 per 1 million silvers - puts you at $150,000.

Quite a decent sum. Tax exempt, I'm sure. :)

Assuming he sold it all, and isn't lying about it. He's not the most trust worthy guy around.

[Tyrael]

I guess I just don't see the point in trying to out someone as ruining your game experience when it is entirely in your capability to have a perfectly enjoyable time without ever interacting with his character.

[Asha]

I guess I just don't see the point in trying to out someone as ruining your game experience when it is entirely in your capability to have a perfectly enjoyable time without ever interacting with his character.

Definately.

[Artha]

GS is a pretty huge world with a pretty small player population. There's no reason for anyone to ruin your game.

[Asha]

Unless they're a GM, and that can cirtainly fuck it all up for you.

[Artha]

Yeah, then you're pretty much fucked.

[Latrinsorm]

I guess I just don't see the point in trying to out someone as ruining your game experience when it is entirely in your capability to have a perfectly enjoyable time without ever interacting with his character.If you knew a cat burglar was operating in your neighborhood, but you knew your personal house was secure, could you rest easily? Assume for the sake of argument that you a) have neighbors and b) aren't engaged in a Shakespearean blood feud.

[Asha]

:rofl: I'm laughing, but it's a laugh of confusion.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

If you knew a cat burglar was operating in your neighborhood, but you knew your personal house was secure, could you rest easily? Assume for the sake of argument that you a) have neighbors and b) aren't engaged in a Shakespearean blood feud.

Tsin is far from the Elanthian equivalent a Burglar in your IRL Neighborhood.

People can just say to Tsin, "No." And that's it. No more problems. Even better you can squelch him if you don't like.. and that's the end of it. WARN interact, so he can't mess with you, whatever.

You can't tell burglars "No." You can't squelch them so that you never see them, nor can you WARN them on interaction and assist for a GM to intervene when they break it.

[Tisket]

Well, to be forward, I'am considering purchasing Simutronics and making it a subsidiary of a publicly traded software (game) company which I own a significant share in. The purchase would be to address my concern with where the Gemstone and also Dragon Realms games are heading but more prominently it would be for nostalgic reasons. But, please do not read this as an eventual changing of ownership. To date, I have not officially courted Simutronics Corporation with an offer nor do I plan to without further inquiry.

Jesus, I think you just broke my "this is bullshit" meter...

[Ardwen]

Sheesh how many of these stupid threads do we really need to have. If you wanna make a poll/survey about someone/something at least make it on a useful subject. I choose Global Warming, How is Tsin causing the ice caps around Pinefar to melt, discuss!

Ardwen

[Sean]

The hot air around Tsin is causing the oceans around Teras to evaporate at too great a rate... it must be stopped.

[Tyrael]

I could see notifying people of a potential wrong doing but I don't really think that is ruining the playability of the game. But it really is up to the person buying the item from this person to determine if they want to do business or not. I think after the person gets screwed over ( not saying this is going to happen, just what if ) then you have another person on your army to let other buyers know you can get cheated.

Not to be a fan of anyone in particular but you have to imagine in order to do the amount of business Tsin does, he has to have some pretty content customers. Isn't that how business works?

[Gan]

We could always discuss the economic impact of Tsin's silver earning capability and how it infuses mass amounts of silver into the M1 Gemstone money supply creating inflationary pricing on all goods and services because the value of silver has been driven down by his dreaded coin hand.

Soon we'll have an official ruling on the trade value of Gemstone Silver against the US Dollar, with the Euro/UK, Japan, and China following soon afterwards. The motion on the table for the next FOMC meeting. And a Greenspan commentary is expected by early next week. Already, commodities brokers are chomping at the bit in hopes of getting in on the first floor action as soon as the approval is granted to trade GS Silvers.

And in other news...

[stallion4]

They ever nerf the coin hands at all? Or do they still work the same?

[Mistomeer]

I don't think Tsin ruins the gaming experience for anyone. I think Tsin is just a sign of the different players in the game and their motivations for playing. I think alot of the bitching, whining, etc could be cleared up if they ever actually released Gemstone: The Fallen (which they won't). The problem is that Gemstone just tries to cater to too many players - roleplayers, merchants, powerhunters, etc. and from time to time they will step on each other's toes, but I think most players have just come to accept this.

[Latrinsorm]

People can just say to Tsin, "No." And that's it.That's the analogy of having a burglar-proof home. My walling myself prevents me from getting ripped off; now what about everyone else?
I could see notifying people of a potential wrong doing but I don't really think that is ruining the playability of the game.Me neither, which is why I explicitly stated "It's probably not accurate to say Tsin ruins the game".

[Lucos]

Tsin is just the extreme end of the spectrum. At the other end you have your RP Nazi bastards. The rest of us reside somewhere inbetween.

[Tyrael]

The rest of us reside somewhere inbetween.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Except maybe splitting up 'inbetween'.

;)

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

That's the analogy of having a burglar-proof home. My walling myself prevents me from getting ripped off; now what about everyone else?Me neither, which is why I explicitly stated "It's probably not accurate to say Tsin ruins the game".

Most people who have homes, have walls, which means that if walls = no burglars, then people in game = choice to not interact with Tsin.

It's a ridiculous analogy.

[Dwarven Empath]

What can I say about someone who...

Rescues me in OTF, grabs my lost weapon.

Then I get healed and raised.

I can say thanks.

Thanks Tsin, Naaser, Taraken, Sabreon, Beryl and everyone else!

Medi...

[Latrinsorm]

It's a ridiculous analogy.The point, in the end, is that people who look out only for themselves when it comes to Tsin are exactly as morally culpable as people who look out only for themselves when it comes to a burglar IRL.

I could take issue with your equation of choice and prevention, but I sense a refusal to consider, so.

[Methais]

A.)In what ways does he ruin the game for you personally? (Please, provide some evidence if you can)

Don't give a shit.

B.)Do you believe that the things he does has an impact on the game's entertainment value? If so, how?

Don't give a shit.

C.) Do you believe Simutronics management would have a way in dealing with alleged problem characters such as Tsin?

Don't give a shit.

A.) Do you believe that Tsin is really the problem or just the symptoms of more rooted contagion in GS (aka the real money market for game items)?

Don't give a shit.

B.)If Tsin disappears, will another character(s) take his place?

Don't give a shit.

C.) If you can see Tsin leave voluntarily will you be more happy, less happy, or indifferent about your gameplay?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/39735.jpg


Well, to be forward, I'am considering purchasing Simutronics and making it a subsidiary of a publicly traded software (game) company which I own a significant share in. The purchase would be to address my concern with where the Gemstone and also Dragon Realms games are heading but more prominently it would be for nostalgic reasons.

http://home.twmi.rr.com/mymaria/bullshit.jpg


Thank you.

http://stfuanddie.com/gallery/d/27-2/anarchy_stfu.jpg

[Asha]

Honestly, seeing your posts, I don't ever expect anything constructive but pictures that make me laugh my ass off. Cheers.

[Methais]

The point, in the end, is that people who look out only for themselves when it comes to Tsin are exactly as morally culpable as people who look out only for themselves when it comes to a burglar IRL.

I could take issue with your equation of choice and prevention, but I sense a refusal to consider, so.

People should stop being pussies and learn to take care of themselves, and people like you should stop encouraging people to be pussies that can't take care of themselves.

[Methais]

Cheers.

http://www.cheers-becker.de/c_norm_10.JPG

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

The point, in the end, is that people who look out only for themselves when it comes to Tsin are exactly as morally culpable as people who look out only for themselves when it comes to a burglar IRL.

I could take issue with your equation of choice and prevention, but I sense a refusal to consider, so.

A more accurate analogy is this.

Lets say there's a neighborhood with a bunch of houses with happy families in them.

Lets say there's a burglar too, who's looting people's shit from houses that have unlocked front doors when people go to bed at night.

Lets say most of these people note this behavior, lock their doors, and go to bed.

Lets say another small but not very bright group of people note this behavior and go, "NO I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO UTILIZE THE LOCK ON MY DOOR" and go to bed with their front door unlocked.

The rest of the neighborhood looking at those few dumbasses who kept their doors unlocked and subsequently, willfully left themselves open to being robbed, are not morally lacking in anyway. They're smart people wondering how other people can be so stupid.

If Tsin is going into houses with the front doors that are unlocked-- then just fucking lock your door and shut up about it.

[Makkah]

Still a bad analogy... going into someone else's house and taking property is still illegal. :)

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Still a bad analogy... going into someone else's house and taking property is still illegal. :)

Eh it is but do you really feel it's your duty to go and insure that everyone locks their door at night? And do you feel bad for someone who doesn't utilize the tools they have to easily not be scammed/stolen from/annoyed?

[Gan]

:rofl: @ Methais's posts.

I love Methais's picture posts. He is the man when it comes to satirical image posting... and I laugh almost every time.

And as far as I know, coin hands still work the same. At least from what I've seen of their use from an observer's perspective.

[stallion4]

Thanks Ganalon

[Madmox]

We could always discuss the economic impact of Tsin's silver earning capability and how it infuses mass amounts of silver into the M1 Gemstone money supply creating inflationary pricing on all goods and services because the value of silver has been driven down by his dreaded coin hand.

Soon we'll have an official ruling on the trade value of Gemstone Silver against the US Dollar, with the Euro/UK, Japan, and China following soon afterwards. The motion on the table for the next FOMC meeting. And a Greenspan commentary is expected by early next week. Already, commodities brokers are chomping at the bit in hopes of getting in on the first floor action as soon as the approval is granted to trade GS Silvers.

And in other news...


This is my favorite post i've read in a long time. its seriously making my sides hurt im laughing so hard.

-Khirdahn

[Rainy Day]

If you think he's such a prick, don't talk to him.

That would be good advice normally. Unfortunately, Tsin talks to you even if you don't want to talk to him if he thinks you have something he wants, be it a spot in line at a merchant, that he wants to unload an item and thinks you could buy it, or being ready to be promoted in the guild when he was playing Super Guild Asshole.

In cases like that he pesters the shit out of you.

RD

[Lysander]

Ok few final questions:

Do you personally benefit from the real money/silver trade in Gemstone?

Does it supplement your income to the point where you would be upset at a crackdown on this type of trade?

[Tyrael]

Do you personally benefit from the real money/silver trade in Gemstone?

Does it supplement your income to the point where you would be upset at a crackdown on this type of trade?

No on both accounts for me. However, the amount of money that is floating around in the game right now really has killed the economy with respect to 'the best items'. Without being able to purchase silvers online I wonder how long it would take someone to go from 1 million silvers to 150 million silvers in order to get that 10x padded armor they want.

Personally I think the downfall of the economy is the merchant system. Relying on GameMasters to bring in the uber items has created a really small group of billionaires and ends up outcasting the casual gamer.

[StrayRogue]

The downfall of the system came with Simu allowing accounts sale, the MA ET parties and the invention of Ebay/Paypal.

[Tyrael]

Could you elaborate on how the sale of accounts modified the economy? I'm not seeing how the sale from one person to another would effect that characters impact on the economy unless we are talking about the consolidation of several characters/accounts to remain under one persons control. But even at that, we would have to be talking about several key accounts which I guess is entirely possible. I don't keep up much with who owns what accounts.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I've sold silver and I didn't really feel bad doing it. I've sold a total of probably 10 million, at 15 dollars per million.

I've bought like a total of 2 mil in silver, when I first started playing, and the most silver I've ever had at one time was 68 million.

I don't think getting rich in Gemstone requires you to own multiple accounts and buy tons of silver. I think it requires merchanting skills/money smarts that a lot of people just plain don't have. Some people are good at making money-- others just aren't. It's the way the world works.

I agree with Tyrael that the small number of uber-items and them being dependent on GM introduction probably is the root of the problem concerned inflated prices. It's why I was so against the idea of making four-scripted items auction quality-- the flood of scripted items onto the market was good for the market entirely because it made getting a neat scripted item that perfectly fit your character SO much easier. I'd give up unique scripted items entirely if it meant that characters who really wanted an item kept it because it fit/they used it, not because it was valuable and they wanted to hoarde it.

[Tyrael]

I would like to see the introduction of item bonding. Similar to that of World of Warcraft where certain 'great' items are bonding to a character which would disallow the sale of the item.

While I was very against the idea when alpha testing WoW, after playing for several months the economy ( aside from korean gold farmers ) really does feel like it works. If you want a bad ass item, you work for it. You don't have one person with all these super items claiming their worth of 100+ million silvers.

Just a thought...

[Methais]

Could you elaborate on how the sale of accounts modified the economy? I'm not seeing how the sale from one person to another would effect that characters impact on the economy unless we are talking about the consolidation of several characters/accounts to remain under one persons control. But even at that, we would have to be talking about several key accounts which I guess is entirely possible. I don't keep up much with who owns what accounts.

My guess would be from back in the day when Ciston bought a bunch of old inactive accounts with tons of uber shit on them, and got all that stuff circulating through the game's economy, which just snowballed from there.

I don't really consider that a bad thing though. It's better to have them floating around at insane prices than not floating around at all.

Coin hands work the same as they always have btw for those that were wondering.

[zhelas]

Uber items are nice and give you an edge and a bit of bragging right, but are not necessary to reach cap.

I think the most I ever spent was 8 mil on some augmented chain. All the silvers I have collected are tied up in my characters. Sometimes you can find great deals.

Have I thought about buying silvers? Sure
Have I thought about buying a character that would give me an advantage? You bet. Reason? To use them as a utility character and if they have items, collect those and sell them later.

Would I do any of the above? Possibly, but RL finances are going towards other things.

[jpatter123]

A.)In what ways does he ruin the game for you personally? (Please, provide some evidence if you can)

Don't give a shit.

B.)Do you believe that the things he does has an impact on the game's entertainment value? If so, how?

Don't give a shit.

C.) Do you believe Simutronics management would have a way in dealing with alleged problem characters such as Tsin?

Don't give a shit.

A.) Do you believe that Tsin is really the problem or just the symptoms of more rooted contagion in GS (aka the real money market for game items)?

Don't give a shit.

B.)If Tsin disappears, will another character(s) take his place?

Don't give a shit.

C.) If you can see Tsin leave voluntarily will you be more happy, less happy, or indifferent about your gameplay?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/39735.jpg



http://home.twmi.rr.com/mymaria/bullshit.jpg



http://stfuanddie.com/gallery/d/27-2/anarchy_stfu.jpg

:yeahthat:

[Lucas]

First, I believe Simu actually likes the real money/items trade. Mainly because it gives an incentive for those that want to jump into the game and not have to start from level 0. This goes for older players that might have lost their characters to the decay of time.

Secondly, Simu is obviously trying to jump in on the character purchasing business by offering those people who may have lost their characters to be retrieved for 250$. This part just sickens me since Simu states that they frown upon any game item sales for real life cash. You can claim that it's a "smart business move" or whatever "I'm angry at the world because it's shunned me negative cold world view" reason you can think of. But, when an estabilished company starts poking it's nose into the seedy secondary market for player characters/items it's just not right. It's kind of like, how can I trust you when you're cheating too?

But anyhow I try to play for the sake of playing the game even if theres all these very OOC things going on.

And for those that do sell game items, to them I would say, "more power to you". The reason why so many people here are pissed at Tsin or merchant whore X, is mainly because they are jealous. Why do I say this? Because if they can they would love to play the game for free or make tens of thousands of dollars playing the game. Do I wish that these merchants will go away? Yes, because I would like to see higher end items come down in price to where the "normal" player can have a chance to own one of them sometime in their career. Does it affect my gameplay? Yes and no. Yes, because I see many of my hunting mates grow extremely powerful in a very short period time, forcing us to part ways and thus dissolving our friendship. No, in that I can usually make new friends...although I wish I can still hang out with the old.

Finally, can Simu "crackdown" on illegal game trading. Yes, there is a multitude of ways to do this, and many MMORPGs have some type of safeguards. Will Simu do it? No, because like it or not the secondary market for real life cash/silver has become an integral part to the playerbase, it's probably the only way for the casual player (1 hour per night) to get a hold of these items ever.

[Artha]

Arguably, if the cash-for-silvers market died, these items would lots of value. If only Tsin can afford it, and he doesn't want it, you've got a pseudo-expensive paperweight. You can either hold onto it, not wanting to lose money, or you can sell it for the highest offer, which may or may not be lower than its former value.

And at some point, if you get rid of the cash-for-silvers market, silvers become worthless. If you can buy anything from any player and anything from any sort of GM Auction, there's not a point in having more.

Of course, since really the only thing to do post-cap is earn silver (and TPs), that takes away a fairly sizable reason to keep playing - probably why Simu still allows it.

[jpatter123]

another point about the uber items.. as a guy whos played since around '92 the uber items were always in the hands of the few. After gem exploded there seem to be a few more people in control of the uber items but I can seem to always remember 4 or 5 people in control of the majority.
Cost of items is completely relative also.. Back when amazing items sold for 10 million nobody had 10 million so it might as well be the 100 million it is now.
With more and more people leaving the game silver has been condensed down to fewer and fewer players. Silver prices have dropped considerably from the 25-30 dollars a million they once were. It seems to coincide with the de-valuation or deflation of the gemstone silver.
As far as MA'ing goes its been done for a long time. I watched more then one person do it using mulitple AOL accounts on multiple computers before gemstone went to the web.

[Gan]

Do you personally benefit from the real money/silver trade in Gemstone?
Yes. It has allowed me to liquidate a lot of accumulation and realize some ROI on what I've spent. That is not counting the marginal utility I experience for the fact of just playing the game.



Does it supplement your income to the point where you would be upset at a crackdown on this type of trade?
No it is not included in my personal budget as a fixed income. I consider it discretionary income; however, I would still be upset at the possibility of losing this earining potential if it were to go away in the future, especially while I still retain ownership of several high level/value characters.

Simu has attempted to venture into the 'soul bound' items similar to what permeates WoW; however, the items I was aware of (pure corasine?) were very limited in release and made no significant impact on the non-soul bound inventory already in circulation. Since I'm not an uber item hawk I'm probably missing other instances where items were pegged to initial owners.

Simu could shut down the aftermarket of items/characters/accounts by taking action similar to other game's efforts. However, I think that they also realize that, in any form of business, the ability to transfer items/goods only stimulates additional participation (and subsequent income) through alternative means than starting from scratch when buying into the Gemstone experience. Games with the inbount/outbound volume of client traffic such as WoW are less impacted by this and therefore take measures against such aftermarkets of accounts and inventory.

[stallion4]

I've barely skimmed a lot of these posts so forgive me if I ask a question that has already been posted..But does anyone think if they came up with a way that completely put a sudden STOP on selling of items/coins/characters that you would see a decline in the population as a whole? Do you think some people would leave for another MMORPG that they can profit from if they put in the serious time? Considering there are some people who put in the time just to earn coins to get items to sell..or just sell the coins..
Once again..I apologize if this has all been talked about..

[Gan]

I know I stopped playing wow because I only had so much time to alot to a game. Between the two (wow and gemstone) I had 2 factors that determined my choice. Game utility is a neutral factor since I enjoy playing both equally.

1. Time interruptability while playing

2. Return on investment (no matter how minimal it may be).

If I didnt raid, time interruptability was neutralized since I could step away from wow/gemstone at any time. Only when I was raiding was time interruptability a factor.

Since I cant resell game currency and items legally or potentially sell off my accounts legally upon termination of playing WoW, this negatively impacted my ROI position and ultimate decision to stay with WoW and encouraged me to stay with gemstone.

[Alcoholic]

Tsin isn't the only one who roleplays a merchant. Tsin isn't the only who has a small army at his disposal. Tsin isn't the only one who sells high end items for exorbitant amounts of coin.

I've had some conversations with Tsin, generally surrounding this or that high end item. In whispers, he's as OOC as most GM run NPC's that I whisper to (i.e., no worse than anyone else). In game, from my observations, he's less blatantly OOC or OOG than many that I do see.

As Lucos noted, and I agree with, Tsin is just one end of the extreme, by relative perspective. If it wasn't him in that role, someone else would earn the title. Lucos is one of those that actually has a decent amount of coin and inventory, and as much a possible candidate (as say, Ardwen), for being the "Evil Uber Hoarder" of GS should Tsin disappear.

Perhaps Tsin is more blatant about his relative investment. There was at least one other person at Ebon's Gate that I found more blatant than Tsin was.. he has seemed to earn the title of the person that "people love to hate."

I haven't traded with Tsin on anything of note that I can recall. I have traded with Ardwen and some other high end dealers..

I value roleplay, and I value the RP'd interactions that led to my PC paying too much for an item - what? You've never bought a car from a sleazy car salesman? Your character is infallible? That's your RP. My characters, as myself, are fallible.

I agree with the notion that if any single person can destroy your gaming experience for more than one evening, than you should step back and reconsider why you're playing a game. I've done so, a few times, on several occasions.

As far as gaming integrity goes.. I happen to value true capitalism, limits of resources and the invention of the "black market" as a resource. Over the past year, I've seen GemStone slide away from focusing on Roleplay, and spend more resources on DEV and game improvements, with these improvements peppered with Pay Merchant Events.

Personally, I'd like to see more quests, and more Roleplay. Personally, what's the point of coveting the Uber Roxxor Sword of Dooooom111! if you never get to be a hero and use it in your Uber moment of glory?

I suppose I'm closer to the RP Nazi end of things, though I am far less disconsolate about someone playing a "sleazy salesman" (we are adults, after all, and all the neat movies have that stereotype), rather than allowing Giantkin to marry Halflings (disgusting), Dhe'nar to giggle when sober (hello?) and anyone beyond 50 trainings (20, in my mind) to speak Baby Speak and act as if they are pre-adolescent (yea, because that's less jarring to the game experience - NOT).

The Black Market was often an incentive to keep playing.. as much I would prefer to not have to do it, I know that for all the time I've spent playing this game, I know that I could "cash out" if it meant paying my bills and staying off the street for another month. I would not begrudge anyone that. Emotional investment in trading and character development cannot be overlooked.

What I do not believe in, is socialism. I do not believe all the wealth should be redistributed. I do not believe that paying a monthly fee or an event fee entitles me to anything beyond what is specifically stated (entry to shops, and further opportunities for services), and I am more often distressed and/or disappointed in the lack of an immersive environment, moreso than what this schmuck does with his/her account.

Truly.. what's more out of genre? Someone who can cast meteor storm acting like a four year old child, or someone who has 6-8 other personas under his command, in line for a service at a merchant? The latter seems far more reasonable in a fantasy setting - the former seems far more ridiculous to me, by a fantasy gaming standard.

That there is slavery and or item/coin sales on a black market seems reasonable to me, whether or not I participate (mostly, I do not now, but I have in the past).

GemStone markets itself as a roleplaying game. Obtaining virtual wealth, possessions, and power over lesser minions through less than scrupulous means doesn't offend my notion of roleplay. Pretending you're a Care Bear with a wand does.

Tsin? Who is Tsin? Who cares? If it's not him, it'll be someone else - that doesn't change anything.

People love to complain when they give you a dollar. That dollar entitles them to lecture you on their 2 cents, and how bad your customer service is, because you didn't fill their expectations.

I say, vote with your feet. This is what it is. If you hate it so much, get the fuck out. Otherwise, stop complaining and have a beer. I've had 4 while writing this, you may need one by now.

[StrayRogue]

Tsin does not Roleplay.

[Latrinsorm]

Because if they can they would love to play the game for free or make tens of thousands of dollars playing the game.Most people argue with his methods, not his results.

BUT I R JUS TJEALIS PROLLY RITE?

[Ardwen]

Hey wait! I am alredy the evil hoarder. even Tsin considers me that heh. I collect stuff, alot of its expensive stuff, if tis something I dont need/want then I sell or trade it. Tsin generally only keeps items he'll use. We are very different ends of the high end spectrum. As theres less and less neat stuff I want that I dont own, I have sold less and less of my other loot, as alot of people have noted to me heh.

Tsin, Sergey, Myself and whomever else is selling/buying high end gear does one very important thing. we keep it in circulation. Tons of great items are gone and wont likely ever return, all in all I have never much liked character sales, I see item and in a different sense silver sales as useful to the game.

Ardwen

[Seran]

Tsin, Sergey, Myself and whomever else is selling/buying high end gear does one very important thing. we keep it in circulation. Tons of great items are gone and wont likely ever return, all in all I have never much liked character sales, I see item and in a different sense silver sales as useful to the game.

Ardwen

You would be about a dozen times more believable with that statement if the items you sold were not marked up a similair number of times due to the fact you three own most of the like level items. Don't get me wrong, the fact you own them is not a bad thing. The fact you set the upper reaches of the economic bell curve which is the GS: Prime economy is.

Say hey for breakage!

[Gan]

To those of us who are content with low to mid-range price/quality items, that upper bell curve of the GS economy has little if any impact on our day to day game playing.

I've owned a few 10x items which is by no means considered on even the most generous uber-item scale. Since liquidating them, I have not noticed any difference in how I play the game, other than being less paranoid when I hunt/die in OTF.

The biggest delimma I face now is whether to keep or sell the 6.5x mbp project I'm currently working on. I'm leaning towards the latter to be honest.

[Ardwen]

Who else would be expected to set the values of the items except the people that own them, for good or bad. And that doest even include the hundreds of mid to high level items I perseonally have auctioned at my 1 coin minimum auctions, am I in the extreme minority there sure, but I am not alone in having done so.

Ardwen

[Lucas]

To the uber merchant,

The problem is this. To you this seems like a fair market economy, but for the vast majority it's not. Why? Because ultimately it's a closed market with a vastly high barrier to entry for people who play normally.

This is because all the "uber merchants" are dealing with their own "uber merchant" inflation rates. That is to an "uber merchant" dropping 100 million is a regular day's exchange and therefore super items tend to circulate amongst a few "uber merchant" people and thus the inflated prices.(although their are exceptions..more on that later) To a casual player 100 million is nearly unheard of (or their entire GS careers accumalated earnings.)

Now the exception to only "uber merchants" getting these items is the player whos just fed up with the system and has a significant amount of disposable income. This player goes out and buys his 100 million or so in coins and buys uber item. Coincidently, this player acts as the driving force of the market liquidating the silvers of the "uber merchants".

Now heres my prediction. IF, my analysis is correct then what is happening is that oh so slowly the silver market (even with absolutely no silver inflation) will eventually collapse. Why? Because the reason why silvers possess the dollar value that they do is because people want to purchase super items that they could not ever attain through casual play. But say, these super items become more and more disseminated through more and more hands (because people are buying silvers and purchasing these items) then 2 factors come into play. First, the UNIQUE amount of people willing to purchase silvers begins to dry up (meaning that section of the GS population that are willing to spend US dollars for silvers have been filled). Second, monopolistic tendencies disappear (theres more unique people with super items and this creates market competition and in theory lower prices). Thus, this takes a two fold attack on the demand function for silvers in GS. Therefore, eventually demand disappears and alas a crash in the dollars for silver market.

Thus, my advice to all those that despise the dollar for silver market is:
GS isn't getting many new players nowadays, as long as the people willing to spend real money has dried up, and more and more items are being spread out to different people. Silvers are going to eventually become worthless, to the point where their dollar value becomes so low that it becomes pointless for people like Tsin or whoever to spend 10 hours a day popping boxes.

[Gan]

To the uber merchant,

The problem is this. To you this seems like a fair market economy, but for the vast majority it's not. Why? Because ultimately it's a closed market with a vastly high barrier to entry for people who play normally.

This is because all the "uber merchants" are dealing with their own "uber merchant" inflation rates. That is to an "uber merchant" dropping 100 million is a regular day's exchange and therefore super items tend to circulate amongst a few "uber merchant" people and thus the inflated prices.(although their are exceptions..more on that later) To a casual player 100 million is nearly unheard of (or their entire GS careers accumalated earnings.)

Now the exception to only "uber merchants" getting these items is the player whos just fed up with the system and has a significant amount of disposable income. This player goes out and buys his 100 million or so in coins and buys uber item. Coincidently, this player acts as the driving force of the market liquidating the silvers of the "uber merchants".

Now heres my prediction. IF, my analysis is correct then what is happening is that oh so slowly the silver market (even with absolutely no silver inflation) will eventually collapse. Why? Because the reason why silvers possess the dollar value that they do is because people want to purchase super items that they could not ever attain through casual play. But say, these super items become more and more disseminated through more and more hands (because people are buying silvers and purchasing these items) then 2 factors come into play. First, the UNIQUE amount of people willing to purchase silvers begins to dry up (meaning that section of the GS population that are willing to spend US dollars for silvers have been filled). Second, monopolistic tendencies disappear (theres more unique people with super items and this creates market competition and in theory lower prices). Thus, this takes a two fold attack on the demand function for silvers in GS. Therefore, eventually demand disappears and alas a crash in the dollars for silver market.

Thus, my advice to all those that despise the dollar for silver market is:
GS isn't getting many new players nowadays, as long as the people willing to spend real money has dried up, and more and more items are being spread out to different people. Silvers are going to eventually become worthless, to the point where their dollar value becomes so low that it becomes pointless for people like Tsin or whoever to spend 10 hours a day popping boxes.

Your analysis is spot on except for one variable. The introduction of new uber items through pay-merchant/auction events. It will have a negative effect on the uber-item-merchant monopolistic behavior; however it will have a positive impact on the demand for silvers for those wishing to sell said gained items and those wishing to purchase said items from those who gain them.

[TheEschaton]

It only has a negative impact on the behavior if they trend towards token/raffles, as opposed to silver auctions.

-TheE-

[stallion4]

Isn't one of the major reasons that they have these big auctions/merchants to dispose of big chunks of currency that people are stockpiling anyways? Ganalon has a very good point.

[StrayRogue]

Unfortunately, there is always more coins where they came from. I think Khaladon once posted saying over 200 mil a day goes out of the GS treasure system.

[stallion4]

200 million? That's a shitload..I mean..when Tsin farms heavily..What do you think he brings in a day?

[Gan]

Much akin to wages, there will always be a push demand for more silvers from hunters/players of Gemstone. That is because normal item acquisition is achieved through the exchange of in-game silvers.

And as long as SIMU is responsive to the demands of its customer base (responsive being the relative term) then silver creation (including gems and resale/pawn items) will still influence the M1 type money supply of the in-game economy.

However, SIMU (much like the Fed) will raise rates on items necessary for professions to perform certain everyday tasks (general supplies, potions, magical items, etc) in order to offset the influx of increased treasure into the game (much like inflation).

So the end result is that the hunter feels more successful because of increased treasure/reward for their efforts only to suffer higher prices for necessities in the back end. We call it bait and switch. The key is that this is a progressive inflation where the younger levels do not suffer because of lower skill abilities and its lower requirements for everyday necessities. Pretty smart eh? :clap: SIMU.

[Lucas]

Thus, F it and play the bleeding game.

[Methais]

Uber items are overrated except for when someone needs to stroke their epeen.

[holocene]

To steal info from above, if it's accurate, then an "Elanthian GDP" of about 200 million a day, might give some global perspective...

So me: casual, but diligent hunter. In 2 hours a day, nowhere special, I can clear MAYBE 100k (so 1/20th of 1% of the daily GDP).

Extrapolating: if all other players earned like me, then we'd see maybe 2000 players...sounds about right, eh? (EXCEPT, there probably aren't that many players harvesting 100k every day...PC sample audience aside, I bet most players earn quite a bit less.)

Enter the hunt'n'harvest MA'ers. I've heard reports of 1 - 2 million an hour when the treasure system is generous. Say that our famous MA'er makes 10 million a day? That's 5% of the Elanthia's total daily GDP...seems fair that he would own 5% of Elanthia uber-items. And he does this day in and day out...many of the rest of us are plinking .1% of the daily GDP several times a week.

From that perspective, the monopolies are logical, maybe even fairly earned. Token auctions, etc., occasionally disrupt the apple cart, but there are really only a lucky few who can secure uber items with the resources that they earn in-game.

[Makkah]

what Methais said^10

[Shari]

I might be repeating what others have said but I have no desire to go through 11 pages of bullshit.

I have maybe only twice, ever, with any of my characters interacted with Tsin on an RP level. I don't recall him being OOC.

I could never afford any of his uber items, nor would I want to. People are entirely capable of capping with out his 20x a day glittering red slipper that summons flying monkey familiars for me.

I think the only, the ONLY thing that bothers me about Tsin is that he is a braggart. I recall him telling me that he was able to buy a plasma flatscreen with the money he's made of GS. I think its great he's able to make income off a game, but do I want to hear about it? No.

Also, WHY would you confess to anyone that you've spent $600 dollars to go to an auction event in game, and then brag again about all the spiffy items you got?

I don't go running around flaunting my tit size, what kind of car I drive, how great my sex life is, etc. (Not that any of it is worth bragging about but I'm using as an example) It just ends up making you look like the two year old that got the lollipop and makes sure to let eeeeeveryone know about it.

I'm sure there are other people in game who are just as sucessful as Tsin, but they don't go about blaring it out on a Las Vegas-style neon sign. And nobody hates them. Nobody likes a braggart. Its as simple as that.

[Artha]

I don't go running around flaunting my tit size

I mean, if you wanted to...that'd be okay. As long as there was photographic evidence and all. It'd be cool with us.

[AestheticDeath]

I honestly wish they would reduce the amount of coins being pushed through the treasure system.

[Methais]

I honestly wish they would reduce the amount of coins being pushed through the treasure system.

They did that a long time ago. Remember how bad it sucked? Yeah, me too.

[Asha]

Along with reducing the amount of good items like they've done, that would further make sure that anyone who already has the coin/items, would be the only ones who will ever have them.
Hunting for coins is as much an incentive as hunting for experience.
Hinder either, and you're reducing the rewards we enjoy putting the time we spend doing what we trained our characters to do in the first place.

[AestheticDeath]

I must not have been here when it happened. But, anyhow it would only make the prices for items drop. The only reason prices are going up is cause more coins are available. Easier to get.

Reduce the amount of coins, and you should eventually have cheaper items. Seriously just like take everyones coins and reduce them by 90%, so the guy with 10000 coins has 1000 coins, and the guys with 100m have 10m, then boxs drop 300 silver instead of 3000 silvers etc.. Would make hunting alot easier, and you wouldnt have those stinking boxs that you cant even pick up. Or at least not as often. Part of the reasoning I want it is because of that.. making hunting easier, would be along the lines of having gold coins, silver coins, copper etc... cept I dont want different kinds of coins. Drop boxs less, gems or trinkets more often. Drop nice weapons/armor more often, and bring in breakage. Make a spell that can do to armor/shields what 411 does to weapons. Or make 411 universal instead of just targeting weapons.

[Lucas]

bring in breakage

This is key.

Not only would it allow some more people to get a try at using some of these items (since it will recirculate and appear in another box or get sold in some other auction). It would cut down on the secondary market. However, some problems occur... people who legitimetly earned these items will be pissed (but thats less then .001 % of your customer base) and Simu will never do it because high end items are like EXP/levels to them. Their business is make you spend as much time as possible in the game and chasing after uber items is a large part of this.

[Artha]

They should just make high end items BoP and readily available. That'd solve it.

[AestheticDeath]

BoP? I had a brain fart and all I can come up with is birds of paradise... Dont ask.

So whats BoP for the mentally challenged?

[Artha]

WoW term for 'Bind on Pickup'. Meaning once you grab it, the only way you can get rid of it is to sell it to a vendor for a fraction of what it'd be worth if you could sell it to other people. There's also BoE = Bind on Equip, which means you can transfer it to someone else as long as you haven't used it before.

It's offset by the fact that anyone can get, with enough time and effort, any powerful item in game.

[Gan]

I have a few ideas if SIMU should go BoP on uber-items.

What criteria would you suggest Artha?

I think I would say any special merchant item that has features to it that one could not reasonably get in game through services from other characters, low level merchants who pad/weight/flare items up to the standard normal scale, or through premium points.

[Lucas]

I like the idea of BoP.

[Methais]

I think overall things are fine the way they are. At high levels, you can generate a lot of cash very quickly without MA'ing. In OTF I could easily pull in 100k+ an hour. The temple is no different, I'd even say it's better.

Back when I used to mana leech in shadow valley for charging up blue crystals and ruby amulets before they nerfed both spells (mana leech and charge item), I could generate a ridiculous amount of money in a very short time. In one charging orb I could charge up at least 5-6 ruby amulets, and then duplicate them after, with both duplicates being fully charged, and then sell them for 100k each. That's roughly 1-1.2m worth in about 20 minutes of "work". Same with blue crystals, except I'd sell those for 20k each, but obviously could charge up a lot more than 5-6 per orb.

I have no idea why I brought that up, as it has no relevance to this thread. Good times though, good times indeed. I wonder if I'm at least part of the reason those spells were nerfed....

As for Artha's BoP idea, while I don't think it 's bad, I don't really think it's necessary in GS like it is in WoW, mainly because in GS, your skills can still increase when you're capped. In WoW, gear is the ONLY way to advance at the cap.

[Artha]

I have a few ideas if SIMU should go BoP on uber-items.
It's always worth a shot. I think traditionally the answer has been that they don't want to scale mobs to uberitems, but even stuff that's semi-uber'd be nicer than what most people have access to.


What criteria would you suggest Artha?
I haven't played in awhile (shortly after WoW's release), and I guess it depends on how hardcore you want to be. Definitely I'd do any items with properties you can't buy off the shelf - something like Sorrow, for instance, or multi-setting gold rings. Anything with more than x-amount of weighting, padding, or lightening. Anything with unusual flares (not generated by the treasure system).

To balance it out, there'd have to be an influx of items like this - I think the best way to do it would be to connect it to the bounty system, introducing quests to get these items. They would, of course, be difficult in scale with the item's goodness. I'm sure they could also introduce some other random NPCs, or add quests to current NPCs, as well as have some of these items just appear randomly in the treasure system.

[JohnDoe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Particular attention to money sinks.

[Gan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

Particular attention to money sinks.

OUTSTANDING!

Thanks for posting the link JD. Mudflation, almost makes me wish I was going back for post-grad work in Economics. Imagine creating/developing a MMORPG to run economic experiments day in and day out. :drool:

[Sean of the Thread]

Breakage/repair.

[Methais]

I think breakage would be a huge failure if it were implemented. Mainly because for every uber artifact item that broke, a halfass not-so-uber item would be put into the game to take its place.

[Ardwen]

Problem with breakage/repair is noone wants catastrophic breakage and break and fix type breakage does nothing to punish the super wealthy, it however cripples the casual player. Unlessyou are going to base breakage on net worth of the person not the value of the broken item,

Ardwen

[Tolwynn]

Another problem with breakage is that not every uber or decent item is necessarily combat-related, either.

Coin hands, recharging crystals, Seymour, unnavvable teleport rings, combining books, gem chisels, jewelry boxes, familiar instruments, and so on.

If you make it where even non-combat and regular items degrade or break too, yeah, that's going to go over really, really well.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

It's always worth a shot. I think traditionally the answer has been that they don't want to scale mobs to uberitems, but even stuff that's semi-uber'd be nicer than what most people have access to.


I haven't played in awhile (shortly after WoW's release), and I guess it depends on how hardcore you want to be. Definitely I'd do any items with properties you can't buy off the shelf - something like Sorrow, for instance, or multi-setting gold rings. Anything with more than x-amount of weighting, padding, or lightening. Anything with unusual flares (not generated by the treasure system).

To balance it out, there'd have to be an influx of items like this - I think the best way to do it would be to connect it to the bounty system, introducing quests to get these items. They would, of course, be difficult in scale with the item's goodness. I'm sure they could also introduce some other random NPCs, or add quests to current NPCs, as well as have some of these items just appear randomly in the treasure system.

I would love a system like this that does more to reward time spent questing towards an item rather than time spent getting silvers to buy a way overpriced item.

I will likely never own a single piece of uber armor or weapon or anything in GS just because it's not something I feel like paying the exorbitant price for. I dunno if Simu would actually do something like BoP though because I think that's part of their appeal to some players-- that if you want to you can do minimal grinding and just sink money into the game and get some sort of return you're looking for.

[AestheticDeath]

Problem with breakage/repair is noone wants catastrophic breakage and break and fix type breakage does nothing to punish the super wealthy, it however cripples the casual player. Unlessyou are going to base breakage on net worth of the person not the value of the broken item,

Ardwen

I personally don't see it as something that should be there to punish people, most especially not one type of person. Wear and tear type breakage would cost everyone about the same, based on % of the item value. Have a chance for catastrophic breakage to release items back into the game, hopefully for someone else to find and have a chance at.

Dont mass produce coins from nothing. Bring in that mining thing, so people have to find the silver and then sell it to the gemshop/pawnshop, so they can 'make coins from it'.

Then the only silver released into the treasure system, is silver that is spent by the players, through the pawnshops, thru the exchange fees from notes etc.. If there isnt enough silver released that way, you can have certain silver releases to pad the game. But having 200m or whatever was said to be released everyday... Thats insane.

[Methais]

Have a chance for catastrophic breakage to release items back into the game, hopefully for someone else to find and have a chance at.

That wouldn't work. Like I said earlier, for every uber item that suffered catastrophic breakage, it's most likely to be replaced by some halfass not-so-uber item. That's just how Simu rolls, which everyone probably realizes by now.

[Merzbow]

I think enhancive charges that wear out and have to be recharged is the 'new' breakage. I'm betting more and more item abilities will be subsumed under the enhancive rubric.

[Drew]

You're right Merzbow about items with charges being the new breakage


Lots of the old uber items are considered "too powerful" so it's foolish to think they would be re-released. Then if you support breakage you are basically saying "I would prefer people have very nice things destroyed so that I have a chance at owning something just nice."

[Ardwen]

You missed my point Maselon. if I have a billion silvers and one of my 200 amazing items requires repair, whoopee! f you have one amazing item won at some awesome raffle, and it breaks nad you cant afford to repair it, who is hurt? based on 5 pct value to repair items, I'd be set for decades, most poorer people cant say that. Not to mention the whle non combat items thing. better then 90 pct of the great items would ignore breakage.

Ardwen

[Artha]

I'd be set for decades
You've worked for all those silvers though, so really it's only fair.

[AestheticDeath]

Assuming someone spent all their money on one item or something. Yeah I see what you mean.

[ElanthianSiren]

You missed my point Maselon. if I have a billion silvers....

You will give them all to me! Just kidding; you know I wouldn't take them anyway.

I don't believe that Tsin specifically has ruined the game. You can argue that casual gamers are being forced up to a higher level of play because he's bending the curve; to which, I say bullshit. I log in once or twice a week now, if that, but my empath and even my warrior (arghhhhhhhhh!!) are perfectly viable.

What ruined the game specifically for me was that being a roleplayer turned into a stigma at one point, and I simply stopped fighting to enjoy GS. Now, I log in when I want to do the general GS passtimes (hunt mostly or shoot the shit with some old friends), and that's it. I also don't expect more from the game, so I can't honestly say any person in it is "ruining" it for me actively.

-M

[Seran]

Problem with breakage/repair is noone wants catastrophic breakage and break and fix type breakage does nothing to punish the super wealthy, it however cripples the casual player. Unlessyou are going to base breakage on net worth of the person not the value of the broken item,

Ardwen

More and more people are able to forge at a competant enough level every month that a Repair system based off of ranks is entirely viable. Simu assumes that the -casual- player has a complete set of 4x gear. You're looking at a 600k for your normal board and blade user at current levels.

Breakage enters, and suddenly those same blades are going for 75k apiece, rather than 200k. Assuming non-repairable breakage would happen less than 1% of the time a weapon fails it's ST/DU check, your average hunter would have recooped his loss several times over before needing to replace a truly destroyed item.

Scaring people with generalities and vague facts based on your full 10x, self-mana opal, DB item wearing 'casual player' isn't fooling anyone. Forging, mining, and playershops are all steps along the road to breakage. Live with it or quit.

[Drew]

Scaring people with generalities and vague facts based on your full 10x, self-mana opal, DB item wearing 'casual player' isn't fooling anyone. Forging, mining, and playershops are all steps along the road to breakage. Live with it or quit.


Luckily you aren't a GM so you're just talking out of your ass. Although I do agree with the "or quit" part. If they implement breakage, I'm quitting. I have several nice items I worked hard for and I'd rather just quit with the memories than watch what I spent a lot of time and hard work getting be destroyed so some grub like you can have it for free.

[Lucas]

Luckily you aren't a GM so you're just talking out of your ass. Although I do agree with the "or quit" part. If they implement breakage, I'm quitting. I have several nice items I worked hard for and I'd rather just quit with the memories than watch what I spent a lot of time and hard work getting be destroyed so some grub like you can have it for free.

I agree with Drew on "I've earned so I can keep it." The problem with this mentality is that it's essentially self defeating for Simu. Look at it in the prespective of the real world economy. Generally, anyone in the US can get moderately wealthy if they work hard (just like a casual player hunting constantly and merchanting can get moderately wealthy.) A few people in the US can get exceptionally wealthy, mainly through the advancement of technology( and being the person doing the advancing).

In contrast, in GS there is no self-creation of wealth. Meaning person A,B,C cannot work real hard and create something totally new and sell it on the market for billions. All the wealth is already pre-positioned and unmovable, (unless someone with lots of items quits and gives away all his stuff).

So, the solution?

NO breakage. But, uber items should now be able to be player built. Meaning, say I wanted a black ora flamberge. I can now work toward this by first going into the mines, finding a spot, digging and hopefully finding some black ora. What this does is that it allows for a nobody 10th level noob to get extremely lucky and find that sweetspot (randomly distributed around the mine) of black ora. It would be the same equivalent of a dirt-broke Illinois salesman who have dreams of finding gold in California during the late 1800's and
actually finding a jackpot stream bed.

Add in padding/crit weighting by players (I think a GM said this will eventually occur) and you'll get a further closing between rich and poor.

I also think other uber items (say with special properties) can be created by players (any player) who are creative enough to make them. In that I think any magic item creation should be based on more puzzle solving/questing/and general adventuring rather then being completely dominated by repetitive "sweating over the forge scritable" work.

Anyhow, my 2 cents.

[Drew]

I agree with Drew on "I've earned so I can keep it." The problem with this mentality is that it's essentially self defeating for Simu. Look at it in the prespective of the real world economy. Generally, anyone in the US can get moderately wealthy if they work hard (just like a casual player hunting constantly and merchanting can get moderately wealthy.) A few people in the US can get exceptionally wealthy, mainly through the advancement of technology( and being the person doing the advancing).


I came back to GS4 in 2004 with 500k in my bank account, so it's definately possible to make it, even without grinding. But you have to work at it. So when people complain that only a few people have nice items it doesn't resonate with me, it just means they won't put the effort in to get them.

[Lucas]

I came back to GS4 in 2004 with 500k in my bank account, so it's definately possible to make it, even without grinding. But you have to work at it. So when people complain that only a few people have nice items it doesn't resonate with me, it just means they won't put the effort in to get them.

What do you mean by not grinding? What do you mean by effort? I've been playing GS for nearly 3 years now and I have always skinned/looted/and even merchanted a few items (never lost profit on an item). But, I've never made over 37 million silvers. I'am a casual player, I average around 1 to 2 hours a night (mainly because I have a day job and more work when I get home). At this rate, I will never be able to attain said super item (not even one), mainly because of the massive inflation going around due to the secondary markets and uber merchants. Why is this so unfair?

1.) Outside markets (which are NOT part of the game) have a huge affect on the in game markets. I don't want to participate in this activity, I don't think it's right and I certainly think it's ruining the enjoyment of the game for a lot of people. In fact I can probably get over 100 unique people (who
I have met in game) to sign a petition saying this is so.

2.) Uber merchants are ultimately locked into the secondary markets. In fact, the only reason why these merchants exist is so that eventually these people can get a big payoff at the end (and I'm not talking about Elanthian currency here.) They sap the enjoyment of the game for the casual player because they flaunt items around behind a massive 3 feet thick bullet proof glass ceiling. It's like not being able to get the BFG in your copy of Doom, but for a few people's copy they can get the BFG...this to me detracts greatly from the game's integrity and ultimately it's entertainment.

[Lucas]

I came back to GS4 in 2004 with 500k in my bank account, so it's definately possible to make it, even without grinding. But you have to work at it. So when people complain that only a few people have nice items it doesn't resonate with me, it just means they won't put the effort in to get them.

What do you mean by not grinding? What do you mean by effort? I've been playing GS for nearly 3 years now and I have always skinned/looted/and even merchanted a few items (never lost profit on an item). But, I've never made over 37 million silvers. I'am a casual player, I average around 1 to 2 hours a night (mainly because I have a day job and more work when I get home). At this rate, I will never be able to attain said super item (not even one), mainly because of the massive inflation going around due to the secondary markets and uber merchants. Why is this so unfair?

1.) Outside markets (which are NOT part of the game) have a huge affect on the in game markets. I don't want to participate in this activity, I don't think it's right and I certainly think it's ruining the enjoyment of the game for a lot of people. In fact I can probably get over 100 unique people (who
I have met in game) to sign a petition saying this is so.

2.) Uber merchants are ultimately locked into the secondary markets. In fact, the only reason why these merchants exist is so that eventually these people can get a big payoff at the end (and I'm not talking about Elanthian currency here.) They sap the enjoyment of the game for the casual player because they flaunt items around behind a massive 3 feet thick bullet proof glass ceiling. It's like not being able to get the BFG in your copy of Doom, but for a few people's copy they can get the BFG...this to me detracts greatly from the game's integrity and ultimately it's entertainment.

[Sean of the Thread]

Rofl.. Simu encourages the outside secondary market. I wouldn't waste your time with a petition.

[Lucas]

Hmm, I've been staring at your avatar for a little over 5 minutes now... is this wrong?

[DeV]

Rofl.. Simu encourages the outside secondary market.Pretty much, yep. I don't see where they'd be (economically) speaking without it.

[Lucas]

Whats your reasoning for the encouragement? How does Simu benefit? Transfer fees?

[Methais]

Whats your reasoning for the encouragement? How does Simu benefit? Transfer fees?

Transfer fees, and the fact that if there were an actual way to crack down on the outside secondary market (which they really have no way of doing), they'd lose a lot of subscriptions.

Basically Simu couldn't beat them, so they joined them.

[Seran]

NO breakage.

You don't even have to go past that, your argument has pretty much commited suicide.

As it has been stated over and over by SGM after SGM and posted multiple times in the Breakage and Repair forum, there will never be a system allowing the unchecked input of 'uber' items without an opposing system to remove them.

You give every player the chance to get the best items without the possibility of losing them, and you swiftly get a dwindling playerbase. Nearly every player -wants- an uber item, and working to that goal is what makes alot of people play everyday. By implementing a breakage system that'll regularly remove said items, you allow for the input of addition merchant provided or player created equipment of substantial ability.

Feel free to quit though, if you don't get your way. Your taking those items with you when you leave means more of a chance for everyone else to get something better.

[Tolwynn]

Feel free to quit though, if you don't get your way. Your taking those items with you when you leave means more of a chance for everyone else to get something better.

Because we all know everyone quitting takes every last uber item and character with them.

And if all they do is leave and freeze, wouldn't the items technically still exist, unavailable to anyone?

[TheEschaton]

Hmm, I've been staring at your avatar for a little over 5 minutes now... is this wrong?

I'm kind of proud to be in Xy's sig now that his avatar is so.....mmmm...I got caught staring at it again, totally lost my train of thought.

-TheE-

[Seran]

And if all they do is leave and freeze, wouldn't the items technically still exist, unavailable to anyone?

Don't you think it's just a bit dramatic to say everyone would quit?

I seem to remember the same nay-sayers who said Gemstone would die if they went to GS4. It happened, and the game is still going strong. Y'all are still playing too, so I think now would be a time to quiet down.

[Alfster]

Whats your reasoning for the encouragement? How does Simu benefit? Transfer fees?

I seem to remember a post from Melissa that came across as them bragging about how much single items from the game can sell for with real money.

Then again, that was many beers ago and my memory sucks

[Alfster]

Y'all are still playing too, so I think now would be a time to quiet down.

We do?

Xyelin does. Rumor has it that when he reactivated, he just couldn't help but play every night.

[Rainy Day]

However, SIMU (much like the Fed) will raise rates on items necessary for professions to perform certain everyday tasks (general supplies, potions, magical items, etc) in order to offset the influx of increased treasure into the game (much like inflation).

So the end result is that the hunter feels more successful because of increased treasure/reward for their efforts only to suffer higher prices for necessities in the back end. We call it bait and switch. The key is that this is a progressive inflation where the younger levels do not suffer because of lower skill abilities and its lower requirements for everyday necessities. Pretty smart eh? :clap: SIMU.

I dunno where you're getting this from. Simu has never done any kind of price raising of goods like that and I see zero indication they ever will. A lot of the items we buy now are much cheaper than the same kind of thing was several years ago. Remember when a plain vultite falchion would sell at a merchant for 200K or more? They're under 100K at merchants today.

Inflation in GS only applies to unique or high end items. Mundane items have either held steady at the same price for a decade or more (gold rings still sell for 5K), or the price to acquire them has dropped, often significantly.

I don't care much about the inflationary aspect of the game because I've never been able to afford that stuff whether it was selling for 10 million 10 years ago or 50 million today. At my level of play, inflation has only a limited to non-existent effect.

RD

[Sean of the Thread]

We do?

Xyelin does. Rumor has it that when he reactivated, he just couldn't help but play every night.

Rofl... yeah that's it.

[Gan]

I dunno where you're getting this from. Simu has never done any kind of price raising of goods like that and I see zero indication they ever will. A lot of the items we buy now are much cheaper than the same kind of thing was several years ago. Remember when a plain vultite falchion would sell at a merchant for 200K or more? They're under 100K at merchants today.

Inflation in GS only applies to unique or high end items. Mundane items have either held steady at the same price for a decade or more (gold rings still sell for 5K), or the price to acquire them has dropped, often significantly.

I don't care much about the inflationary aspect of the game because I've never been able to afford that stuff whether it was selling for 10 million 10 years ago or 50 million today. At my level of play, inflation has only a limited to non-existent effect.

RD

In actuality, pricing for NPC merchants in the Landing has remained flat for the most part with the exception of some items being removed from the list, new materials being added, and higher costs for customization of standard items. The weapon cart outside the north gate has seen a small increase in pricing from what I remember since starting back in 1998. This is hard to verify one way or another since I cant think of any data sources to look at earlier prices in comparison to today's prices.

Where you're wrong in your assertions is in the profession based items such as the cost of potions for enchanting, alchemy supplies for scroll infusion, and items from the lockpick shops as well as specifically the rogue guild shops. Every one of those items have increased in price since initial release (or at my memory recollection point) from my estimations and memory recollection. Added to that are the racial modifiers in areas such as Illistim, and it compounds the effect on items that were available then and now during my timeframe estimation. These items, profession based specifically, are money sinks in that new items now required for the completion of every day tasks (trap component kits for disarming for instance).

Where we have really seen inflation has been in the non-npc market. I can remember buying FGB for 2 and 3 mil each and reselling them easily for 4m, today you cant own a set for less than 8 (if you're lucky) normally 9 and up. Fel hafters were a consistently 2 million when I first started merchanting, now double that. This does not count the fact that initially these items came off the rack on the spit/jug for a fraction of that price.

So saying inflation doesnt effect anyone, whether its caused directly by simu raising the prices on NPC merchant items or indirectly by limiting/controlling the release of in-demand items through merchant events, is unrealistic in thinking. Perhaps not to you persay, but it definately affects people. Perhaps its because your level of play doesnt match up with others. I simply call it denial.

[Lucas]

Fel hafters were a consistently 2 million when I first started merchanting, now double that. This does not count the fact that initially these items came off the rack on the spit/jug for a fraction of that price.

Problem with that is that rarely will a merchant carry a nice item like fel hafters anymore, so the existing stock of those items just boost in price.

[Necromancer]

Right. When it comes to thinks like FGB, of course they sold for less initially...there were MORE of them in game. Over the years, they phase out of the game, leaving only a few behind, which become more valuable when another item hasn't been introduced in mass to replace its demand.

Also, as far as inflation goes...people come on. Other games *study* SIMU's economics models because the inflation is so insanely low. SIMU is brilliant when it comes to in-game economics. They introduce festivals and such that drain money back out of the system at roughly the same rate it is introduced (they do have mild inflation each year, about standard to US inflation actually) to keep things relatively stable. Other games don't have this, and the prices for items skyrocket quickly since wealth accumulates at a rate far beyond the rate at which is phases out.

[Daniel]

I'd like to see these figures and sources.

[StrayRogue]

They introduce festivals and such that drain money back out of the system at roughly the same rate it is introduced

No they do not. Not by a long long long long long long shot.

[AestheticDeath]

Right. When it comes to thinks like FGB, of course they sold for less initially...there were MORE of them in game. Over the years, they phase out of the game, leaving only a few behind, which become more valuable when another item hasn't been introduced in mass to replace its demand.

Also, as far as inflation goes...people come on. Other games *study* SIMU's economics models because the inflation is so insanely low. SIMU is brilliant when it comes to in-game economics. They introduce festivals and such that drain money back out of the system at roughly the same rate it is introduced (they do have mild inflation each year, about standard to US inflation actually) to keep things relatively stable. Other games don't have this, and the prices for items skyrocket quickly since wealth accumulates at a rate far beyond the rate at which is phases out.

Except I highly doubt the number of sets of FGB has gone down, and if so, not by much. Anyone remember the scam where that guy was duping FGB... I cant imagine how many sets were re-introduced during that. And I know not all of them were done away with.

And Id like to see some numbers on that other inflation stuff as well.

[Daniel]

I'm pretty sure he was talking out of his ass. (You figure the hole is big enough)

[Rathain]

I'm pretty sure he was talking out of his ass. (You figure the hole is big enough)

Heavily padded gear is no longer sold off the shelf like it once was. There is merit to the argument, though it has less to do with demand and more with supply. There is a steady increase in price level that causes inflation in Elanthia, due to an overwhelming increase in the money supply and velocity of exchange - wealth is as disproportionate as ever, and rightfully so, as some people play more hours than others sleep, and have earned their wares. Added in the liquidity in GS commodoties for RL $, and you've got a sizeable money market in the meanwhile. I think you are giving the GM's too much credit Necromancer. They are just doing what they do best - making a ton of money for themselves off of special events. Everything else seems marginal.

[Apathy]

Heavily padded gear is no longer sold off the shelf like it once was.

... "ok"

[StrayRogue]

Well it isn't.

[Seran]

It's alittle hard to argue the point of removing silvers from the game when you consider the rate in which they're put out and the sheer number already out there. One might argue Dragonbones, when you can see the maw sometimes has an upward of 300million, but even then there is alot won as well.

Each silver auction might drain a billion silvers, but often enough the items introduced are well more valuable than the bids put out for them.

<Added to stay on topic>: One item per customer, per auction keeps people like Tsin from utilizing his sometimes shadily obtained silvers from dominating entire silvers auction. Sure he can snatch them up later, but at the discretion and hopefully huge market up the current owner.

[Apathy]

Correct me then, when was it?

[Stretch]

Why is this thread still gasping along?

[StrayRogue]

Correct me then, when was it?

FGB, Siren Scale, Pyro Brig, Fel Hafters, Dir Hafters...and others have all been sold off the rack in GS before.

[Lucas]

There is massive inflation in GS right now, all you have to do is look at the current silvers price 14 bucks per silver, when this whole silver selling got out it was 30 something per silver. Right now I see some people selling for 13 bucks per silver sometimes. Anyhow, you don't have to be a genius to see that there is a general trend in silver devaluation.

The far better way of measuring GS economy is by valuing in US dollars say a Fel Hafter or FGB or an item in which everyone relatively knows the value of. Has the value for these items gone up over the past years...gone down? I know currently a fel hafter is in the price range of around 90 $. What was it when it was first priced on the USD market?

On another note, I have no idea why SIMU doesn't release more nice stuff. I do have a very cold feeling about the reason though. A long time ago a GM told me that one of the main purposes of playing GS was to attain some of the more higher end items. In fact, in GS there are primarily 3 areas in which a person can waste his time. 1.) EXP gain 2.) Getting nice stuff (silvers) 3.) Adventurer's Guild. These all work together to get YOU to play more and thus shell out more money at the end of the month. If all the nice stuff were "off the shelf" at some merchant then number 2.) will be highly eroded. Anyone remember when the Spitfire was free for everyone? Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore... and this was back when GS cost 9.99 a month. For some odd reason now we pay more 15.00 per month and get less (no free merchants).
This is just strange to me.

[Celephais]

The far better way of measuring GS economy is by valuing in US dollars say a Fel Hafter or FGB or an item in which everyone relatively knows the value of. Has the value for these items gone up over the past years...gone down? I know currently a fel hafter is in the price range of around 90 $. What was it when it was first priced on the USD market?

As someone already stated, fels used to go for 3 mil... at $30 a mil: $90, no inflation there.


In fact, in GS there are primarily 3 areas in which a person can waste his time. 1.) EXP gain 2.) Getting nice stuff (silvers) 3.) Adventurer's Guild.

... From all your previous posts I'm going to assume you excluded role playing because it isn't a waste of time... right


Anyone remember when the Spitfire was free for everyone? Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore...

Yeah, and I remember getting shit in respect to non-off the shelf items. Sure if I knew where to go (and I didn't back then) I could buy good off the shelfs, but lists and enchanting services were impossible for me to get. I believe it took me around six years to get an alteration (I sucked at merchants, and still do, but now I can get them). There are still free events, but hell, I work for a living, $36 phases me a LOT less than chasing a merchant for hours on end.

And there are still free merchants, and they usually stick around and work for more people than old merchants. I've also found that the enchanting changes have been great to make greater than 4x items availible to the casual player... (8x+ probably still maintain the same monitary value, despite not being player makable anymore)

[Ardwen]

you could get silvers for 13 per million 5 years ago if you knew where to look, the only real difference now is that many more people sell silvers themselves directly, where in the past they used a broker to sell for them.

High end item prices on average are actually lower then 5 years ago, mostly because many have been nerfed or had similar items created.

Ardwen

[Stanley Burrell]

For whoever said in the beginning of this train wreck that they were considering purchasing SIMU, if this is absolutely true, make sure to publicize all private earnings from 1997-present, plz.

And so you all know, I just asked my grandma if Tsin had somehow ruined GemStone and she said "Yes."

She also wants to know what that means.

[Celephais]

And so you all know, I just asked my grandma if Tsin had somehow ruined GemStone and she said "Yes."

She also wants to know what that means.

Your Grandma sounds awesome, she's like a magic eight ball that eats and poops. Ask her if I'll get a date to the prom.

[Sean of the Thread]

Did you and Jenisi get divorced already?

[Lucas]

For whoever said in the beginning of this train wreck that they were considering purchasing SIMU, if this is absolutely true, make sure to publicize all private earnings from 1997-present, plz.

Why would this be of any interest? I believe there is a way for someone (who is not trying to purchase the company) to get a hold of a private companies' financials. I'm not sure though, think you have to sue em or get into somekind of litigation with them. Maybe there are other ways. Too lazy to look that up in the internet.

[Gan]

For whoever said in the beginning of this train wreck that they were considering purchasing SIMU, if this is absolutely true, make sure to publicize all private earnings from 1997-present, plz.

Why would this be of any interest? I believe there is a way for someone (who is not trying to purchase the company) to get a hold of a private companies' financials. I'm not sure though, think you have to sue em or get into somekind of litigation with them. Maybe there are other ways. Too lazy to look that up in the internet.

As long as the company's private, they're not required to issue any public statement of earnings. The only way to get a copy of their yearly financial report, if they even publish one, is to be on their distribution list (ie. executive level employee or on their board of directors).

You could try for their tax records, but I dont think you could compel the IRS to release them unless its covered under the freedom of information act.

[Lucas]

Yes, but if you went to trial (say a company didn't fully pay for a renovation bill or whatever) then a court order can compel the company to release their earnings.

[Methais]

This is becoming the dumbest thread ever.

[Merzbow]

This is becoming the dumbest thread ever.

Not really... the competition for that distinction is mind-boggling.

[Gan]

Yes, but if you went to trial (say a company didn't fully pay for a renovation bill or whatever) then a court order can compel the company to release their earnings.

That would best be answered by a lawyer. And since neither of us are one, the most that can be made is pure speculation beyond this point.

[Daniel]

Not really... the competition for that distinction is mind-boggling.

Lol.

[Xaerve]

I hope I do something in gemstone to get me a 20 page thread one day :(

[Daniel]

You haven't seen shit.

[Seran]

I think it'd be easier to simply make a buy in offer to David Whatley.

[Jayvn]

I just hated that scroll of a fucking room outside the barrier, now that he's on teras it's fine for me.