Bardic Archery

[Danical]

So, I've decided to change around my skillset from a pure bard to an archer for the sake of novelty.

I've got roughly 10m exp to work with so here's my training plan.

2x ranged
2x perception
1x ambush
1x PF
1x CM
1x Dodge
90 armor
45 MOC
50 MnE
51 Bard
100 HP
24 MMC
30 Swimming
30 Climbing
75 Air Lore
18 Telep
15 Manip
192 Trading

I should have roughly 565 Ranged AS and my Self-spelled DS should be around 410.

Anything I missed?

[Stretch]

Why all the MOC and CM?

[Danical]

RE: MOC - I plan to be in swarms 45 ranks negates 3 creatures.

RE: CM - Fuck maneuvers.

[Danical]

I forgot to mention that I could also use the maneuvers for knockdowns if needed.

And I should be eye-aiming a composite bow in 1 second.

[AestheticDeath]

How are you getting 565 AS? Could you break that down for me?
(I dont know where all the bard spells max, if you could help with that part.)

[Danical]

302 ranged
66 ambush/perception
35 CoL
50 Ranged ET
35 Burghal Gnome Dex.
24 Kai
38 Targeting
----
550

Which leaves about a possible of 12 more from Targeting and 7 more from Kais depending on how I spend my extra points. I may or may not go for the full AS bonus.

[RichardCranium]

If you don't fire from hiding does ambush count towards your AS?

[Danical]

As far as I know.

[AestheticDeath]

It does.

vulvamancer - i think your bonus from ambush/perception will be 55-56 depending on how it rounds, not 66. 202 ranks plus 101 ranks is 303. Subtract the 80 ranks, and you have 223/4 = 55.75

[Danical]

Thought it was the first 40 ranks.

EDIT: or is it the first 40 in each skill?

[Danical]

You're right. I just checked and it's the first 80 ranks. So it would be 10 AS lower.

So, roughly 540 Ranged AS.

[Asha]

That will absolutely rule.
I always pause after I see Jemiquist murder a swarm with his bow, and enjoy the sight.

[AestheticDeath]

302 ranged
66 ambush/perception
35 CoL
50 Ranged ET
35 Burghal Gnome Dex.
24 Kai
38 Targeting
----
550

Which leaves about a possible of 12 more from Targeting and 7 more from Kais depending on how I spend my extra points. I may or may not go for the full AS bonus.

OK, so the 66 went to 55-56, but you can add 11 for cman wspec1. So you will in fact have 550-551. This assuming you still go 1x CM, and take wpsec1 for arrows.

[AestheticDeath]

So bards can outdo rogues and basically everyone else, assuming they have enough exp to max skills. They get about the same AS possibilities.. but have perma haste with their song.. Man this makes me wanna play my bard more often.

[Asha]

Bards have had the highest AS forever.
Umm.. dunno if Paladins can top them now though.

[Artha]

^ They can.

[Danical]

Bards have had the highest AS forever.
Umm.. dunno if Paladins can top them now though.

If you like running around stuck in offensive. Sure, Paladins can top Bards. Have fun with crystal weaponry.


OK, so the 66 went to 55-56, but you can add 11 for cman wspec1. So you will in fact have 550-551. This assuming you still go 1x CM, and take wpsec1 for arrows.

Can't wspec as a bard.

[AestheticDeath]

no? that sucks

[Soulpieced]

Paladins AS at cap completely destroys a bard. I believe the theoretical max for a giant bard is below 600.

[Danical]

This is true for melee but not so much for archery.

The big thing paladin's get over bards are surge of strength (+20) and bonding/wspec (for another +20). However, only +10 of the above will apply to ranged AS. Furthermore, arm of the arkati won't work with ranged.

Both professions can only 1x in ambush so that's a wash.

The only thing left is comparing zealot/dauntless vs. kai/targetting.

I'd much rather have a 1 RT eye aimed shot and more AS than having slightly lower AS, 3 RT eye-shot, and forced in offensive.

[GS4-D]

RE: MOC - I plan to be in swarms 45 ranks negates 3 creatures.

35 ranks negates 3 creatures.

At 5 ranks, one is ignored.
At 15 ranks, two are ignored.
At 35 ranks, three are ignored.

One additional opponent is ignored every 25 ranks thereafter, so 45 ranks of MoC is a waste of 10 ranks unless you plan on upping it to 60 ranks to ignore four creatures.

[Danical]

O rly?

Might want to double check that with this link (http://www.play.net/gs4/events/event.asp?fid=1040&ID=16494&release=Y).

[GS4-D]

Yes, really.

While we're on the subject of checking links, how about we check ones with the correct information. http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Multi_Opponent_Combat

The one you showed was what the INITIAL idea for MoC was but a week or two later Warden changed it to the link I provided.

If you still don't believe me, I was so kind as to go to OTF and find a swarmed room and show you how my character handles the swarm with 35 ranks in MoC. I bolded the 1st four DS attacks, since the way MoC works is it negates X amount of creatures past the 1st one. So with my 35 ranks, that's 3 negated creatures, plus 1, I should have the same DS on 4 creatures. As you'd scroll down you can see that DS stayed for quite some time before FoF actually started to lower the DS.

Multi Opponent Combat..............| 130 35

[Old Ta'Faendryl, North]
You notice a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir scout, an Ithzir scout, an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir herald and an Ithzir initiate.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south
> stance defe
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
[Roll result: 26 (open d100: 75)]
An Ithzir scout crouches, sweeps a leg at you and connects!
An Ithzir scout whacks your legs to no effect!
>
A war griffin tries to bite you!
With blinding speed, you dodge the attack!
>
An Ithzir herald raises his arms as he sings!
The Ithzir herald appears to be keenly aware of its surroundings.
>
[Roll result: -26 (open d100: 34)]
An Ithzir scout crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip herself.
>
An Ithzir initiate places one palm on his chest, and raises the other toward you!
CS: +386 - TD: +391 + CvA: -9 + d100: +40 - -5 == +31
Warded off!
>
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
AS: +414 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +87 = -289 *** 1st DS attack ***
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir herald swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
You dodge just in the nick of time!
>
An Ithzir initiate closes his eyes while uttering a hollow, alien chant.
>
A war griffin tries to spear you with its beak!
AS: +447 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +11 = -334 *** 2nd DS attack
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
AS: +414 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +87 = -289 *** 3rd DS attack ***
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir scout swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +402 vs DS: +815 with AvD: -7 + d100 roll: +22 = -398 *** 4th DS attack ***
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir adept thrusts both palms toward you!
An Ithzir adept hurls a roaring ball of fire at you!
You move at the last moment to evade the bolt!
>
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
You gracefully avoid the attack!
>
An Ithzir initiate places one palm on his chest, and raises the other toward you!
Strands of webbing shoot forth towards you.
CS: +386 - TD: +391 + CvA: -9 + d100: +19 - -5 == +10
Warded off!
You avoid the webbing.
>
An Ithzir adept closes her eyes while incanting an alien phrase.
>
A war griffin tries to spear you with its beak!
AS: +447 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +56 = -289
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir scout swings a closed fist at you!
You dodge just in the nick of time!
>
An Ithzir herald starts singing an alien song in a reverberating, sonorous voice.
>
An Ithzir scout chuckles softly, the laugh sounding alien and intriguing at the same time. he nods to an Ithzir scout, speaking in a hollow tone, "Wafi ptath feaji letho ramanu dro qualoka ma maktath eif?"
The Ithzir scout points at you for emphasis.
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
You skillfully dodge the attack!
>
An Ithzir initiate closes his eyes while uttering a hollow, alien chant.
>
An Ithzir adept thrusts both palms toward you!
An Ithzir adept hurls a freezing ball of pure cold at you!
AS: +353 vs DS: +781 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +38 = -362
A clean miss.
>
A war griffin dives at you, claws extended, but can't quite manage to find a purchase.
>
An Ithzir herald directs his alien song at you!
CS: +369 - TD: +396 + CvA: -9 + d100: +75 - -5 == +44
Warded off!
You are unaffected.
CS: +369 - TD: +399 + CvA: +25 + d100: +94 == +89
Warded off!
A war griffin is unaffected.
>
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
With blinding speed, you dodge the attack!
>
An Ithzir scout swings a closed fist at you!
You evade the attack with ease!
>
An Ithzir initiate places one palm on his chest, and raises the other toward you!
CS: +386 - TD: +391 + CvA: -9 + d100: +16 - -5 == +7
Warded off!
>
An Ithzir adept closes her eyes while incanting an alien phrase.
>
An Ithzir herald swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
You move at the last moment to evade the attack!
>
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
AS: +414 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +54 = -322
A clean miss.
>
A war griffin tries to spear you with its beak!
AS: +447 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +83 = -262
A clean miss.
> l
[Old Ta'Faendryl, North]
You notice a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir scout, an Ithzir scout, an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir herald and an Ithzir initiate.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south
>
An Ithzir herald strolls in, humming softly to himself.
>
An Ithzir scout smiles faintly at an Ithzir herald as she says, "Gremou bunorak patan ik maktali ra Te pila leppath!"
The Ithzir herald nods and laughs.
An Ithzir scout swings a closed fist at you!
You evade the attack with ease!
>
An Ithzir initiate closes his eyes while uttering a hollow, alien chant.
>
An Ithzir scout's voice sounds as if he is speaking through a long metal tube as he tilts his head toward an Ithzir herald, saying, "Maktali geabu jeseth mor tran!"
The Ithzir scout points at you.
The Ithzir herald nods and laughs.
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
AS: +414 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +45 = -331
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir adept thrusts both palms toward you!
An Ithzir adept hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you!
You evade the bolt with ease!


An Ithzir adept hurls a powerful lightning bolt at a war griffin!
AS: +353 vs DS: +326 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +9 = +75
A clean miss.





>
A war griffin tries to spear you with its beak!
AS: +447 vs DS: +815 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +86 = -259
A clean miss.
>
A war griffin soars in.
>
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
You evade the attack with ease!
>
An Ithzir scout swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +402 vs DS: +815 with AvD: -7 + d100 roll: +90 = -330
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir initiate places one palm on his chest, and raises the other toward you!
CS: +386 - TD: +391 + CvA: -9 + d100: +60 - -5 == +51
Warded off!
>
An Ithzir adept closes her eyes while incanting an alien phrase.
>
An Ithzir herald swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
You evade the attack with ease!
>
* Zodin returns home from a hard day of adventuring.
>
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel longsword at you!
You gracefully avoid the attack!
>
An Ithzir herald starts singing an alien song in a reverberating, sonorous voice.
>
An Ithzir initiate swings a twisted crystal-tipped staff at you!
You gracefully avoid the attack!
>
A war griffin tries to spear you with its beak!
You gracefully avoid the attack!
>
A war griffin swoops down from high overhead!
A war griffin tries to bite you!
AS: +444 vs DS: +753 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +52 = -237
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir scout swings a closed fist at you!
You evade the attack with ease!
>
An Ithzir adept thrusts both palms toward you!
An Ithzir adept hurls a hissing stream of acid at you!
AS: +353 vs DS: +709 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +47 = -284
A clean miss.
> l
[Old Ta'Faendryl, North]
You notice a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir herald, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir scout, an Ithzir scout, an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir herald and an Ithzir initiate.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south

[Danical]

Yes, really.

While we're on the subject of checking links, how about we check ones with the correct information. http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Multi_Opponent_Combat


1) That link has internal conflicting information as seen in the FoF section and the Summary of Benfits. Good job with the review of your link.

2) I hate to break it to you but not all information on Krakiipedia or any wiki is a universal immutable truth. Case in point, Look up MIU on krakiipedia and compare it to the official website.

3) My link was directly from the latest news article pertaining to MOC on the official boards. Why you would believe krakiipedia over the offical website is rather strange.



The one you showed was what the INITIAL idea for MoC was but a week or two later Warden changed it to the link I provided.


No, if you look, you'll see . . .

1) the changes rolled initially
2) they amended the time of FoF onset so you wouldn't get hit with it for a second or two
3) they changed the numbers to 10/25/45 . . . N+25

RE: Your Super Awesome Magical Rainbow-Filled Log of Candy Cane Adventures --

1) Creatures under 10 levels of you count as "weak attackers" (e.g. average scouts and lower spawn initiates). I'm going to assume you're capped.
2) Any attack incurred will cause FoF by creatures against characters (e.g. EBP attacks, AS/DS attacks, CS attacks). This, however, is not the same for characters against creatures.
4) You'll note you counted one scout twice in your super awesome OH NOEZ BOLDED DS ATTACK.
3) You'll also note, you actually negated 6 creatures before you took a hit when you shouldn't have which reinforces #1
4) Ranks of MOC still apply proportionally to the amount needed to negate another creature (i.e. if you have 10 ranks and 20 ranks are needed to negate another you'll achieve only 1/2 of the normal reduction).
5) You'll note how your DS dropped from 815 to 753 towards the end of your log. This was cause by two additional creatures attacking you. A third additional creatured caused it to fall to 709. The reductions don't hold constant suggesting the 10 ranks you're short of negating the third creatures applied, which reinforces #4.



Now, that being said, I am fully open to the idea that I could be wrong. So, I suggest you ask on the officials about this topic. However, until someone in red gives me the official word I'm inclined to disagree with you.

Cheers!

[Danical]

So, any word on this?

[Stanley Burrell]

Why would a capped player get any DS push down for not having any MoC in, say, a room with one war griffin...

And nine kobolds? (Hypothetically.)

What sort of logic does this and doesn't this follow? Weirdness.

[Danical]

I got pushdown from 6 thraks on teras . . . but very little.

[AestheticDeath]

Put a knife in the hands of 9 toddlers... see if you get cut.

[Danical]

Yeah, but, 9 year old toddlers are filled with rage and spite for humanity.

[jpatter123]

have you done this yet? I'd love to know how it works out , I might retrain one of my bards this way. Bards rule!

[Asha]

Bard archers are just amazing to see in action. Bards just pwn.

[mgoddess]

35 ranks negates 3 creatures.

At 5 ranks, one is ignored.
At 15 ranks, two are ignored.
At 35 ranks, three are ignored.

One additional opponent is ignored every 25 ranks thereafter, so 45 ranks of MoC is a waste of 10 ranks unless you plan on upping it to 60 ranks to ignore four creatures.

Last post-in-red on the officials that I saw had the following information...


Unfocused MSTRIKE is first gained at 5 ranks of Multi-Opponent Combat skill, allowing the character to attack two different creatures at once. A third swing is gained at 15 ranks of MOC, a fourth swing at 35 ranks, and additional swings gained for every 25 ranks thereafter. (5, 15, 35, 60, 85, 110, 135, 160, 185)

Focused MSTRIKE is first gained at 30 ranks of MOC, allowing the character to swing twice at a single opponent. Extra swings are gained for every 25 ranks of MOC beyond 30. (30, 55, 80, 105, 130, 155, 180)

The amount of Multi-Opponent Combat training required to fully offset another attacker has been adjusted to come at ranks 10, 25, 45, and every 25 ranks thereafter. (10, 25, 45, 70, 95, 120, 145, 170, 195)

Every rank of MOC counts towards reducing the defensive reduction for multiple attackers, rather than increasing in steps at specific rank thresholds. For example, if a character has 5 ranks of MOC and 10 are required to fully offset the first additional attacker, this character will only lose half of the defensive reduction that would normally apply when facing two attackers.

The bonus defensive reduction to a defender's offensive stance EBP DS has been scaled back.

Rooted attackers will be considered at half effectiveness for purposes of determining the number of attackers, similar to prone attackers.

Creature attackers 10th level and under will be treated as weak attackers.

Creature attackers greater than 10th level but less than 20th level will gradually increase their effectiveness until they are treated as normally skilled attackers at 20th level.

(numbers in parenthesis following unfocused, focused, and offset are my calculations for a warrior who nearly 2x's in MoC.)

[Danical]

ty.

That's what I remember too.

[Danical]

have you done this yet? I'd love to know how it works out , I might retrain one of my bards this way. Bards rule!

I haven't because I've found that my pure bard is doing exceptionally well in Nelemar. There are a few things I haven't worked out with archery and non-corp undead yet . . . such as waiting to pick my arrows from non-corp undead which kinda negates the speed of 1RT shots.

If I bought a perma-blessed/self-ammo bow then I wouldn't have a problem but I don't find that it would be that much more efficient than my pure atm. Additionally, I'm not keen on loosing a perma-blessed/self-ammo bow that costs 70-90m from a disarm/void. That would make baby jesus cry.

[TheEschaton]

You can't disarm bows in the left hand. Duh.

That's why archery rocks. You can only have an arrow disarmed. You CAN lose a bow when things like Ithizir scouts ransack your body, etc.

-TheE-

[Tea & Strumpets]

You can't disarm bows in the left hand. Duh.



Bows can be disarmed. Maybe you are confused because if you are holding both a bow and arrow, the arrow will be disarmed first. If you've just fired your bow and get disarmed, your bow is hitting the ground.

[TheEschaton]

Hmmm, I've never had a bow disarmed. Or even swung at, come to think of it.

But none of my bow users are old enough to hunt OTF, but have hunted disarming critters before.

-TheE-

[jpatter123]

[QUOTE=vulvamancer;528371] There are a few things I haven't worked out with archery and non-corp undead yet . . . such as waiting to pick my arrows from non-corp undead which kinda negates the speed of 1RT shots.

QUOTE]

I avoid undead so I have never seen this. just fletch up 100 arrows shoot them and come back and pick them up later. I find arrows I missed on previous hunts all the time. Arrows are cheap even faewood. I am saving up 4x bows for OTF personally. I don't see the point for the +5 AS bonus and taking the chance of loosing a 5x or better bow.Besides with a ranged AS that high who cares about 5 points here or there.
Since anyone can master fletching you could just use a drone to fletch for you non-stop and rack up 1000's of arrows.

On the disarm issue who runs around with an arrow in their hand? Doesn't that cause a DS drop?

[Danical]

No DS drop with an arrow in your right hand if you have a bow in your left.

And I'm nearly certain Odysia has had janissaries attempt to disarm her on multiple occations.

[Danical]

[Roll result: 142 (open d100: 57)]
Xrothgar swings his rolaren kidney dagger at your deringo long bow and connects!
Your deringo long bow is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 10 sec.