Iraq discussion.

[sst]

How is it over there, Dave?

its hot, and everyone from the country is a coward, including the people trying to blow us up. (exception is the Kurds... (Viva La Kurdistan!")

[TheEschaton]

its hot, and everyone from the country is a coward, including the people trying to blow us up. (exception is the Kurds... (Viva La Kurdistan!")

Who's the one hiding behind the barrel of a gun, jackass?

Seriously, when did the big men with guns suddenly become the brave men, and the ones who run away be the cowards? Running away from a man in a gun when you don't have one seems to be the logical, intelligent thing to do.

Soldiers, the minute they justify killing someone, even if their only justification is "someone else is making me do this", have made a more cowardly decision than running away from a man with gun.

-TheE-

[Daniel]

You ever killed a man TheE? You ever been anywhere close?

[Miss X]

its hot, and everyone from the country is a coward, including the people trying to blow us up. (exception is the Kurds... (Viva La Kurdistan!")


When you've lived through what they have, and come out the other side, you might have SOME justification for calling them cowards. Until then you're just making yourself look like an ignorant asshole.

[Asha]

You ever killed a man TheE? You ever been anywhere close?

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? I'm sure he's tried to save people and children before. Ask him that?
That was the stupidest shit I've ever heard from you D.
Everything looks the same looking down a barrel no matter which side you're on. You're still shitting yourself and praying you don't get killed.

[Daniel]

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?


It means you shouldn't talk about the merits or lack there of that is involved in trying to kill someone until you've found yourself in a situation where you have to.

To characterize all soldiers as "cowards" because they have a gun is highly retarded and only something someone who has never been there themselves would say.

Of course, I'd never characterize all Iraqi's as cowards either but I found his comments rather offensive, especially from someone who would probably piss himself and have to spend the rest of his life in counseling if he was ever within a mile and a half of a life or death situation.

[Miss X]

While you on the other hand, Miss X, are making yourself look like a pompous, excuse making bitch.

You've never been in Iraq, so shut the fuck up.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect4.html


This information comes from your Government. If you can read all of that and still justify him calling the Iraqi people cowards then perhaps your opinion will hold some weight.

[TheEschaton]

All soldiers in this day and age sign up to be so, knowing what it means to be a soldier. Some would argue the justification is already there, and they're already cowards. I give most people the benefit of the doubt, and wait til they actually follow through on the act of "being all that you can be".

Have I ever been close to killing someone? That information, as NM suggested, is irrelevant, and I don't feel a need to answer it.

As for pissing myself with fear, I am positive that's not true.

-TheE-

[Asha]

Referring to everyone in the country as a coward when they're not all holding weapons but most holding their children instead is sickening.
He's every right to call Dave on this and then you try to make his opinion sound like bullshit becouse he's never shot someone?
That sounds frighteningly like conditioning to me.

[Daniel]

Sorry TheE. That's bullshit. It's highly relevant.

Unless you've ever been in a situation where you *had* to kill someone, then you have no fucking clue about what its like to do it.

That's like a 33 year old virgin talking about the merits of doggy style.

There's more to this world than your peace corps experience, specifically designed with your safety in mind.

We can't have the little libbies going off around the world and dying now can we?

The world isn't a pretty place everywhere you go and if you think pacification is the answer or even better solution in every situation than I feel sorry for you.

[Daniel]

He's every right to call Dave on this


You're absolutely right he does.

I think Dave is wrong as well.

However..



and then you try to make his opinion sound like bullshit becouse he's never shot someone?
That sounds frighteningly like conditioning to me.

His opinion *is* bullshit. He's never been there and probably never will. It's pretty easy to talk shit in those circumstances.

Just as he has every right to blast dave for making bullshit general value judgements, I have every right to blast him for his bullshit general value judgements.


*edited to add.

Conditioning?

I suggest you lay off the fucking pot.

If you think killing someone is so easy, then I highly suggest you go spend a day in a VA hospital with the people still struggling with the things they did back in Vietnam.

Pulling a trigger is never an easy thing and only a jackass would think so.

[Hulkein]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect4.html


This information comes from your Government. If you can read all of that and still justify him calling the Iraqi people cowards then perhaps your opinion will hold some weight.

He's obviously in a stressful situation, so my opinion stands.

[TheEschaton]

I could repeat the same to you, there's more outside of your Armed Services career. And if you think the answer is at the end of a gun, I feel sorry for you.

Here's a pic, for the thread's purpose:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m21/alokpinto/100_0276.jpg

Edited to add: I was gonna post this kids story, but it's too early and I don't want to tell it.

And now, I have to go to class.

-TheE-

[Daniel]

Well, I almost felt like responding to your post, but then again.. I didn't want to feel like a jackass. Oh wait. That was you.

I'll be here all night.

When you decide to back up your bullshit with anything other than u r soldier, u r stoopid, feel free.

[Miss X]

There we go, off topic posts moved to their very own thread.

[StrayRogue]

I'd consider Dave's statement more telling of himself, his upbringing and his education, than the army/unit that he is in. While I do believe a certain degree of mental conditioning may be present in military training, I'd consider his comments more wrought of stupidity, than anything else, regardless of how close he is to the situation.

[Asha]

.

Just as he has every right to blast dave for making bullshit general value judgements, I have every right to blast him for his bullshit general value judgements.



I agree wiith that part. Definately.
But call an entire country cowards, sure do it, but doing so is a 'general value judgement' on his part too since he's never been in their shoes against the might they face.
Infact we could say the same thing about any opinion any one of us has to offer a debate if we're completely blinkered and refuse to see the point of the other party.

[Daniel]

So....what the fuck are you trying to tell me?

Its too early to decypher dumb shit.

[Asha]

So....what the fuck are you trying to tell me?

Its too early to decypher dumb shit.

Don't insist we have to have shot someone to have a right to say how we feel regarding remarks which are made about a country of people where some are attacking you back, granted.. but some are just defending themselves in any way they can.

[Daniel]

Okay.

Try hard to understand.

I could care less that he said anything to Dave about his comments.

I would have if he hadn't already.

What I take exception to is his general labeling of any soldier, or anyone that utilizes violence as a coward.

I think it's a ridiculous ill informed, privledged based assertation that has no grounding in reality.

[Asha]

I think on that note we can agree on each of our points and be understood.
Fair enough.

[Daniel]

No.

I don't think we can. I stand by my assertation that it is impossible to make any sort of judgement on a situation or people in those situations unless you have experienced something similar.

Period.

Nothing to be argued.

You have contributed absolutely nothing.

Plz stop.

[Asha]

Then I'll stop trying to reason with your grunt attitude. You're blinkered, and there's no point in attempting to make someone who's decided not to listen, understand.

[Daniel]

Yes plz. Do stop.

You have made absolutely zero logical arguments, nor have you employed anything resembling reason. So, yes. Stopping while you're only marginally behind is a good idea.

[HarmNone]

I've waded through teargas to get where I was going. I've had people, whose sole purpose may well have been to end my life, knocking on my door. I've faced rifles, and rifles equipped with bayonets, pointed directly at me. I've wondered if I was going to be shot where I stood. I've boarded a plane with SAVAC (Iranian) security agents carrying rather ominous little black briefcases. I was 17 at the time. Thankfully, I was only checking to be sure all passengers were manifested to the best of our ability. I have, however, never killed anyone. With that said, I view things very differently than you do, Daniel.

[StrayRogue]

I don't think he was saying it is impossible to gain any sort of experience in that sort of situation unless you are a soldier, HN. Nor did I get the impression he was defending any sort of belief beyond the experience>hearsay argument.

[DeV]

Dave's argument that all Iraqis are cowards, save Kurds, was on par with TheE's generalization in the last part of his post regarding all soldiers. That is where his argument fell somewhat short, imo. Dave's statement was without luster from the start.

[HarmNone]

I didn't get that impression, either, Stray. I was just pointing out that it's possible to face imminent danger and come out of it with an entirely different perspective than someone else might have who has experienced similar circumstances. :)

[Daniel]

With that said, I view things very differently than you do, Daniel.

^

Good for you.

I tend to like you Harmnone (Except when your pulling my posts), so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not ridicule your experiences.

However, I will say that there is alot to be said for those who stand up for what they believe in. If you can face the perils of the world without resorting to violence than that deserves a significant amount of respect.

That said, to suggest that non violence is a viable option for the millions of people who find themselves born into the thousands of conflicts going on, is an extremely naive and ultimately dangerous proposition.

Proponents of non violence will almost *always* point to someone like Ghandi or MLK without realizing that they enjoyed the privilege of international exposure, and were working against peoples that had a moral code that wasn't being adhered to. Unfortunately, pacifism doesn't go very far in a place like Tiennanem square.

The reality of the world is that not everyone has the luxury of adopting a stance of non violence for various reasons and to suggest that they are cowards because they didn't grow up in New England to well off parents is pretty narrow minded.

I don't endorse violence everywhere for everything, but I recognize its necessity.

[Daniel]

I didn't get that impression, either, Stray. I was just pointing out that it's possible to face imminent danger and come out of it with an entirely different perspective than someone else might have who has experienced similar circumstances. :)

Heh. FYI my mother was\is a missionary.

[Jolena]

I'm sorry, I have to agree with Daniel. Not every soldier who wields a gun is a coward. Its a very generalized statement with very little reasoning behind it, and instead is fueled by emotional outrage and no logic. In fact, that type of statement is just as bad as the one that TheE jumped all over D for making in regards to the people of Iraq. One generalization is not better than the other, they just cover different viewpoints.

[HarmNone]

So do I, Daniel. Nowhere did I suggest that non-violence is a viable alternative for everyone, everywhere. That would be ludicrous. However, I would also argue that violence is not the answer for all people, all the time, either. There are times when one approach might be used to achieve the desired result, and other times when that same approach would achieve anything but the desired result.

Wars will be. They are inevitable. Not all of them should be, in my opinion; and, not all of them will accomplish that which they seek to accomplish. Whether or not another option might have served better is often difficult to distinguish after the fact.

I did take issue with Dave's comment that "all" Iraqis are cowards. It was an insensitive, and uneducated remark. He doesn't even know "all" Iraqis, much less understand what may be driving their feelings and actions. He has gone into Iraq as a soldier, and has not lived among its peoples. It is, therefore, presumptive on his part to assume them all cowards, in my opinion.

I shall always be supportive of our soldiers, regardless of my feelings about the war they may be fighting. One should not lose the individual in the horde.

[HarmNone]

Heh. FYI my mother was\is a missionary.

I believe you've mentioned that before, Daniel. I have great admiration for her. :)

[DeV]

that type of statement is just as bad as the one that TheE jumped all over D for making in regards to the people of Iraq. To be fair, TheE was jumping all over sst's(Dave) comment initially.

[Stanley Burrell]

I would (i.e.) say that Iraqis venturing to voting polls while having a very rational reason to fear instant death for something we bitch much about/take for granted all too often in the States would not be a cowardly action.

I have an extremely difficult time defining wtf cowardice/bravery means in the 21st century.

[Jolena]

To be fair, TheE was jumping all over sst's(Dave) comment initially.

Yes, which is why I said that the statement that TheE then made regarding all those resorting to violence/carrying weapons/soldiers are cowards was just as ridiculous and served no purpose whatsoever. I referred to sst(Dave) as D, in my post.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I don't agree fully to either side.

My father was a Navy Chief and I was born in Gitmo actually, we lived there for a few years before he retired and we went back to the States. When I asked my dad if he'd kill a man/explode a nuclear bomb if the Government told him to, while he was in the Navy, he said yes but also gave me some good reasoning.

He explained to me about the chain of command and that a huge part of what makes the US Military so powerful is the communication/follow-through. The US does not deliver an empty threat and if someone from the top demands something is done, then it WILL be done. My dad said if he was in charge of pushing a button to launch a nuclear missile and wipe out a city, he got a call from the authorized person who told him to push the button, he'd push the button. Not because he morally agreed or disagreed but because it was for the greater good of the US Military to obey your order and that he was risking a lot for the United States to disobey. Coming from a family of entirely military people (I think I'm one of the few who didn't immediately join one of the services after turning 18) I can definitely say that serving our government in the Armed Forces does not make you a coward, nor does going into war.

I may dislike the War, but I do support the troops and respect them for doing their job, and trying to do it the best they can, all political and social agendas aside.

As for the comments made by Dave about all Iraqis being cowardly.. that's bullshit too. I understand there must be animosity because of the violence you saw towards your own people there (watching friends get shot or the like) but there are plenty of ways the Iraqi people have been quite defiant to what could make them cowardly. Like Stan said-- look at the people who turned out to the polls to vote when they could likely be blown-up or found and executed later by insurgents who saw them? When in comparison tons of people here in the US don't vote simply because it's an inconvience tot heir schedule that day, or they *just don't care*. Many of them are brave to live their lives in fear of those same terrorists you had to live your life in fear of. Except that at the end of one or two or five years, they don't get to leave to somewhere far more safe. They get to stay and live through it some more.

I don't think we as American's could imagine the depth of fear and anxiety that the population of a country in the Middle East must feel on a regular basis.

[DeV]

I referred to sst(Dave) as D, in my post.My bad, I thought you were referring to Daniel.

[Atlanteax]

I think SST/Dave referred to Iraqis being cowards in regard to how they let their suicide bombing do the talking (as opposed to fighting out in the open where they can easily be taken out by American soldiers).

In regard to theE's comment about soldiers... perhaps I can make an equally asinine comment that anyone who goes to Africa with the PeaceCorps is a coward unwilling to take up arms to kill for their country.

[Skirmisher]

TheE, I know your heart is in the right place but Daniel was right on target in my opinion.

Ask Dave to explain his statements more fully or just criticize them if you so desire, but to imply that all US soldiers are cowards out of anger at one persons opinion is not well thought out and not worthy of someone such as yourself.

[Gan]

Actually, I agree with Dave's assessment. Mostly that if 'all' Iraqui's were not cowardice, then the change necessary for them not to have been under the thumb of a crazy dictator and his sicko family would have come from within.

This is where cowardice does not mean all Iraqui's are bad people, it just means that they have been and are still mostly afraid to stand up for themselves. You dont have to be afraid to wield a gun to be a coward, you have to just be afraid to seek change for the better, regardless if its through violent or non violent means.

I hope someday, through their own efforts or through someone elses's efforts they will learn to have enough backbone to actually join the civilized world and coexist without trampling over other's basic human rights.

[StrayRogue]

So every race of people who have ever been oppressed by a dictator or corrupt government and not been able to fight back were all cowards?

[Gan]

My post stands...

[StrayRogue]

What about native American's then?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

What about native American's then?

They were cowardly for not having their own unique illnesses to use against the Pilgrims in an early form of biololgical warfare. Duh!

[Skirmisher]

My post stands...

The opinion stands but is proven flawed more than once in recent history.

People need to think that the future remaining with the status quo is so devoid of anything that makes life worth living that its worth risking not only their life, but the lives of their family as that is what you risk when you mess with a totalitarian government.

To get to that point takes time.

I find it unfair for anyone to name all Iraqi citizens cowards who has not had to live under such oppression.

[Gan]

Actualy, the Native Americans tried to resist colonization efforts. They simply failed. I dont consider them cowardice, just defeated.

I suppose the one hole in my argument would be the Shiite generation that Saddam wiped off the map for attempting to rebel.

The key, is that they took action. Sitting on your ass and accepting status quo doesnt count as taking action.

[Gan]

I find it unfair for anyone to name all Iraqi citizens cowards who has not had to live under such oppression.

That in my mind is the same as saying, you cant comment on the military or the war in Iraq unless you've been there or you're in the military.

At best its just a laughable response.

[Daniel]

Your post does not stand up tot he scrutiny of reality.

The Kurds in the north and the Shi'ites in the south *both* had popular uprisings after the initial gulf war. However, since we did not supply the shi'ites as well as we did the kurds, and the fact that Saddam had more to fear from the majority Shi'ites, they would resoundly crushed while we looked on.

That was our fault, not theirs. They did everything they could, but the reality is that you can only do so much when you're up against an organized military that has no qualms about killing you or your family.

I'd truly like to see how you would act if you saw your family drug out and killed in front of you. You may or may not have had the tenacity to fight back, but then again you really don't have any basis to say what you would do either way.

[StrayRogue]

Well I imagine in every occupation, attack or oppression there would be some element, no matter how small, that fought back. Is there a limit on how many % of a population needs to fight back before you label their entire race as cowards or heroes?

Secondly, you would consider Ghandi a coward?

[GuildRat]

So every race of people who have ever been oppressed by a dictator or corrupt government and not been able to fight back were all cowards?.

No, in Iraq's case, it was and is more of a case of majority in a relatively small geographical area.

[Skirmisher]

That in my mind is the same as saying, you cant comment on the military or the war in Iraq unless you've been there or you're in the military.

At best its just a laughable response.

While not shocking coming from you as of late, dissapointing nonetheless.

I don't think the two are analogous at all.

It is one thing to fight in an army against a powerful foe and another altogether to decide to try to fight someone who IS the law. The police who we like to think are here to protect us being the ones who will take you away for speaking out.

Until it is your children who will pay the price for your speaking out should your uprising fail i think you are making some huge assumptions in calling all of them cowards.

[Gan]

Actually, I agree with Dave's assessment. Mostly that if 'all' Iraqui's were not cowardice, then the change necessary for them not to have been under the thumb of a crazy dictator and his sicko family would have come from within.

This is where cowardice does not mean all Iraqui's are bad people, it just means that they have been and are still mostly afraid to stand up for themselves. You dont have to be afraid to wield a gun to be a coward, you have to just be afraid to seek change for the better, regardless if its through violent or non violent means.

I hope someday, through their own efforts or through someone elses's efforts they will learn to have enough backbone to actually join the civilized world and coexist without trampling over other's basic human rights.

I highlighted a particular section of my thread to help those that seem to be deviating their arguments from what I said.

[Gan]

While not shocking coming from you as of late, dissapointing nonetheless.

I don't think the two are analogous at all.

It is one thing to fight in an army against a powerful foe and another altogether to decide to try to fight someone who IS the law. The police who we like to think are here to protect us being the ones who will take you away for speaking out.

Until it is your children who will pay the price for your speaking out should your uprising fail i think you are making some huge assumptions in calling all of them cowards.

So you're saying that they could not have taken their family out of harms way? If I were a father and a husband and I faced such oppression I would use my own two feet and then some to get my family out of harms way. Just saying its status quo doesnt fit.

So you're saying that if they could discern that their government was bad that they were justified in doing nothing because they faced a more advanced force? Tell that to the minutemen who fought the British...

There's more than enough role models of government and world communities where people are treated like people that even the basic of individuals can determine that they live in a shit hole and that they need to do something about it.

Plan, prepare, organize, resist! Yea, that sounds odd coming from me. But it logically makes sense when dealing with a regime like Hussain's. Think about it.

Edited to add:

Even moving your ass out of the country is taking action. Its hard to rule a country when there's nobody in the country to rule...

By remaining and not resisting, you're only enabling whats wrong. And that in my mind is cowardice in not facing the change you know should happen.

[StrayRogue]

Its very easy to say you could leave your country or fight the oppressors when you're safe and warm at home. I imagine it is a very cold and different story when you're practically in a third world country.

[Gan]

Its very easy to say you could leave your country or fight the oppressors when you're safe and warm at home. I imagine it is a very cold and different story when you're practically in a third world country.

OMG get off that line of debate. Its stupid and irrational.

I'm going to start quoting you in with the ones who say..

U DONT KNOW ARMY B/C UR NOT IN ARMY.


From now on when you post about something you're not involved in directly I'm going to stalk your posts with the same reasoning. Lets see how you respond.

[Skirmisher]

So you're saying that they could not have taken their family out of harms way? If I were a father and a husband and I faced such oppression I would use my own two feet and then some to get my family out of harms way.

Good plan.

No way he'd notice the entire population sneaking over the border.

[Daniel]

While you're busy highlighting in red, bolding and quoting Ganalon. Feel free to deal with the reality of the situation, in that the vast majority of the people oppressed in Iraq, have stood up for what they believe in.

[Gan]

Good plan.

No way he'd notice the entire population sneaking over the border.

yea, because se sees all... kind of like our border control between mexico and the US.

plz.

[StrayRogue]

Um, how are YOU involved in this, then? Is this not an open forum? Did you not post a stupid remark saying how any race not smart enough to fight back against its oppressors are cowards? Did you not say that in a situation where you're family is threatened you'd either flee (this is probably in the dictionary definition of cowardice too, I'll have to check), or fight back?

Tell me, have you been involved in any major conflicts where you were the oppressed? Have you managed any resistant cells? Have you fought for truth, freedom, and the American way against insurmountabal evil?

I think not.

As I said, it's well and good to say what you would do in a situation that has never presented itself to you before. All well and good.

The reality however, is never as acutely accurate as your 20/20 vision however.

[Gan]

While you're busy highlighting in red, bolding and quoting Ganalon. Feel free to deal with the reality of the situation, in that the vast majority of the people oppressed in Iraq, have stood up for what they believe in.


Sorry, not buying that. Else we would not have had to remove Sadam.

[Skirmisher]

yea, because sees all...

plz.

You winged me with that one......

"Good shot Green!"

"Oh..VERY good."

[Gan]

Um, how are YOU involved in this, then? Is this not an open forum? Did you not post a stupid remark saying how any race not smart enough to fight back against its oppressors are cowards? Did you not say that in a situation where you're family is threatened you'd either flee (this is probably in the dictionary definition of cowardice too, I'll have to check), or fight back?

Tell me, have you been involved in any major conflicts where you were the oppressed? Have you managed any resistant cells? Have you fought for truth, freedom, and the American way against insurmountabal evil?

I think not.

As I said, it's well and good to say what you would do in a situation that has never presented itself to you before. All well and good.

The reality however, is never as acutely accurate as your 20/20 vision however.


Now you're making me laugh.

Find another means to debate other than...

"You have not experienced it first hand therefore you cant give your opinion on it!!!"

[Daniel]

Sorry, not buying that. Else we would not have had to remove Sadam.

Translation: : puts fingers in ears: LALALALALALALALALALALA


You don't buy it because it blantantly contradicts your initial statement and shows that you have absolutely zero historical knowledge of the country.

I could easily go back and start highlighting and quoting to show you how you just made yourself look like an idiot by saying, "Well the Indians were just defeated, but they fought" and you now saying "Well the Iraqi's didn't win, ergo they are cowards".

But why bother.

[Skirmisher]

Get the tinfoil hat out Gan.

[Gan]

Translation: : puts fingers in ears: LALALALALALALALALALALA


You don't buy it because it blantantly contradicts your initial statement and shows that you have absolutely zero historical knowledge of the country.

I could easily go back and start highlighting and quoting to show you how you just made yourself look like an idiot by saying, "Well the Indians were just defeated, but they fought" and you now saying "Well the Iraqi's didn't win, ergo they are cowards".

But why bother.



Never said the iraqi's didnt win. Stop putting words in my mouth to fit your argument.

I cant make you comprehend my statement even when I reposted it with bold and pretty colors. I'm not drawing a picture for you, so you'll just have to go out on a limb and make me look dumb.

Remember, dont saw off the limb you're sitting on.

[Gan]

Get the tinfoil hat out Gan.

"GOOD SHOT GREEN"

YOU WINGED ME WITH THAT ONE...


.........

[Skirmisher]

Never said the iraqi's didnt win. Stop putting words in my mouth to fit your argument.

I cant make you comprehend my statement even when I reposted it with bold and pretty colors. I'm not drawing a picture for you, so you'll just have to go out on a limb and make me look dumb.

Remember, dont saw off the limb you're sitting on.

Way to be Gan, taking your plays right from the Rumsfeld and Co playbook. Sweet!

You just dont understand Daniel.

And soon you will be morally confused.

[Daniel]

Never said the iraqi's didnt win.

When confronted with the fact that Iraqi's did indeed raise up against Saddam, you replied "I'm not buying that, because we wouldn't have had to remove Saddam".

That implies that their struggle did not count because Saddam was able to retain power, Aka win.

If you think thats putting words in your mouth than I don't know what to tell you.

but, I'm bored at work. So humor me; What EXACTLY aren't you buying? Cheese? Tacos? Choclate covered Tacos?

and how does it pertain to Saddam still being in power?

[Gan]

Way to be Gan, taking your plays right from the Rumsfeld and Co playbook. Sweet!

You just dont understand Daniel.

And soon you will be morally confused.


So because I happen to support the Republican party makes me wrong?

WTF does that have to do with the current discussion?

You sir are now off topic.

PS. I've never been morally confused. Have you?

[Daniel]

So because I happen to support the Republican party makes me wrong?

PS. I've never been morally confused. Have you?


That's funny. If you support the republican party AND you've never been morally confused, how do you justify these two actions:

1) The Republican led invasion of Iraq in 2003

2) The Republican led abandonment of the Shi'ite Majority in Iraq in 1993 after we prompted them to rebel by offering military assistance.

Weird morals you have.

[Gan]

When confronted with the fact that Iraqi's did indeed raise up against Saddam, you replied "I'm not buying that, because we wouldn't have had to remove Saddam".

That implies that their struggle did not count because Saddam was able to retain power, Aka win.

If you think thats putting words in your mouth than I don't know what to tell you.

but, I'm bored at work. So humor me; What EXACTLY aren't you buying? Cheese? Tacos? Choclate covered Tacos?

and how does it pertain to Saddam still being in power?


Please educate me, did 'all' Iraqi's rise up against Sadam? If so I missed that little skirmish.

And alas, as I pointed out in my original post. Yes, I agreed with Dave and further iterated that those who do nothing, change nothing, are the ones showing cowardice.

How and where am I wrong with that statement?

Please enlighten me o wise one?

[StrayRogue]

So every member of a race has to rise up and fight back if they are not to be called cowards?

[Gan]

That's funny. If you support the republican party AND you've never been morally confused, how do you justify these two actions:

1) The Republican led invasion of Iraq in 2003

2) The Republican led abandonment of the Shi'ite Majority in Iraq in 1993 after we prompted them to rebel by offering military assistance.

Weird morals you have.


Sorry, the Democrats controlled Congress at that time. And Bill Clinton was president.

NEXT!!!!

[GuildRat]

So because I happen to support the Republican party makes me wrong?

WTF does that have to do with the current discussion?

You sir are now off topic.

PS. I've never been morally confused. Have you?


No, taking the side of a conservative makes you the Devil. No matter what was done to channel money to the defense fund. As long as it took away from the artsy-fartsy "I need money to front my I can stick my penis in my own ass" crowd.

[Daniel]

Please educate me, did 'all' Iraqi's rise up against Sadam? If so I missed that little skirmish.


So, If the Iraqi population is X

and X-1 Iraqi's raise up against an evil dictator

Than X = Cowards.

Got ya.

[Skirmisher]

So because I happen to support the Republican party makes me wrong?

WTF does that have to do with the current discussion?

I was simply admiring your ability to follow the talking points.

[Gan]

So every member of a race has to rise up and fight back if they are not to be called cowards?

IF they are being oppressed.

IF they understand they are being repressed.

IF they have the means, methods, and motivation to resist such oppression.

IF they have two feet, a mind, and two hands by which to get their family out of harms way if they have one they are responsible for.

IF they have examples of non oppressive governments by which to see that indeed they are being oppressed.

Do I have to go on? Do you get the picture?

[Daniel]

Sorry, the Democrats controlled Congress at that time. And Bill Clinton was president.

NEXT!!!!

My mistake.

It was 1991, after the first persian gulf war.

I'm surprised that you missed that, being the historical authority that you are.

[Gan]

I was simply admiring your ability to follow the talking points.

As I'm admiring your ability as a moderator of this thread to continue to go off topic.

Can I expect a rude and out of the blue IM next, like last time?

I laugh at you, seriously, a lot.

[Gan]

My mistake.

It was 1991, after the first persian gulf war.

I'm surprised that you missed that, being the historical authority that you are.

I never claimed to be, I think that was you.

[StrayRogue]

So, If the Iraqi population is X

and X-1 Iraqi's raise up against an evil dictator

Than X = Cowards.

Got ya.

Thats how I understood it as well.

But then would we count all those who are too crippled, old, or young to fight into this equation?

What about those people who chose not to fight with the majority or minority, but were eventually liberated? Do these people automatically get taken from the coward bin and labelled heroes?

[Daniel]

I'll leave the bolding to someone more skilled than me.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/Iraq926.htm

When the March 1991 uprising confronted his regime with the most serious internal challenge it had ever faced, government forces responded with atrocities on a predictably massive scale. The human rights repercussions continue to be felt throughout the country.



In their attempts to retake cities, and after consolidating control, loyalist forces killed thousands of unarmed civilians by firing indiscriminately into residential areas; executing young people on the streets, in homes and in hospitals; rounding up suspects, especially young men, during house-to-house searches, and arresting them without charge or shooting them en masse; and using helicopters to attack unarmed civilians as they fled the cities.



One year later, the fate of thousands of Kurds and Shi'a who were seized during the suppression of the uprising remains unknown. While many are believed to be in detention, the government has provided little information about their location and legal status.



The rebels also committed gross abuses during the uprising, summarily executing suspected members of the security forces, including many who were in custody. Middle East Watch also condemns these abuses, though we note that they were not so systematic and sustained as those committed by the government.



Over 100,000 Kurds and Shi'a who fled cities where the conflicts were particularly fierce remain displaced inside Iraq, and another 70,000 civilians are in refugee camps in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran. Despite the harsh life they lead in these camps or as displaced persons in rebel-held northern Iraq or in the southern marshes, they have not gone home because they are afraid or because their homes have been destroyed.

[GuildRat]

So, If the Iraqi population is X

and X-1 Iraqi's raise up against an evil dictator

Than X = Cowards.

Got ya.

Seriously...did you go? Did you see the fear in their eyes when you mentioned Sadaam?

He was an evil dictator....the last woman that cut my hair...and mind you, I'm in the US, her dad, and all her brothers were killed and she was threatened enough to leave the country.

[Gan]

So, If the Iraqi population is X

and X-1 Iraqi's raise up against an evil dictator

Than -1 = Cowards.

Got ya.


FIXED THAT FOR YOU, LOVE YOUR L337 MATH SKILZ.

[StrayRogue]

IF

So does fleeing from oppression, an act of cowardice in the eyes of most traditional honour, make everything alright?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Seriously...did you go? Did you see the fear in their eyes when you mentioned Sadaam?

He was an evil dictator....the last woman that cut my hair...and mind you, I'm in the US, her dad, and all her brothers were killed and she was threatened enough to leave the country.


And so the Knower-of-All-That-Is-Iraq-And-The-Conflict-Within-and-Without has spoken.

[Gan]

So does fleeing from oppression, an act of cowardice in the eyes of most traditional honour, make everything alright?

IN MY OPINION.

Fleeing oppression is doing something about it.

ANY ACTION OPPOSITE OF ENABLEING IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

I love how we're now down to splitting hairs.

:lol:

[Daniel]

Seriously...did you go?

Yes. I was in Iraq from Oct 2004 to Oct 2005 as a dismounted team leader of a recce platon in a Recon, Survaillence, and Target Acquisition Squadron of 1\25 Infantry Brigade. During that time I was assigned to the 1st Marine Division during the Siege of Fallujah, 1st Cavalry Division in Baghdad during the Sadr Uprising and to a special operations Detachment in Northern Iraq.


Your point?

[Daniel]

IN MY OPINION.

Fleeing oppression is doing something about it.

ANY ACTION OPPOSITE OF ENABLEING IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

I love how we're now down to splitting hairs.

:lol:

Reference post from HRW about refugees in the hundreds of thousands.

Lol

[GuildRat]

Narcissia....go there....you'll see.

Or are you too caught up in your "normal" life?

There's civilian companies hiring....of course....they get hanged and burned.

[StrayRogue]

Of course in your opinion. No one else seems to be getting upset here. All we're doing is questioning your opinion, which I, for one, find to be a bit skewed.

[Gan]

Yes. I was in Iraq from Oct 2004 to Oct 2005 as a dismounted team leader of a recce platon in a Recon, Survaillence, and Target Acquisition Squadron of 1\25 Infantry Brigade. During that time I was assigned to the 1st Marine Division during the Siege of Fallujah, 1st Cavalry Division in Baghdad during the Sadr Uprising and with A special operations Detachment in Northern Iraq.


Your point?


How many Iraqi's did you poll about Sadam? What is the breakdown on their opinion, what actions they took against said oppression, and whats the margin of error of your analysis?

[GuildRat]

Yes. I was in Iraq from Oct 2004 to Oct 2005 as a dismounted team leader of a recce platon in a Recon, Survaillence, and Target Acquisition Squadron of 1\25 Infantry Brigade. During that time I was assigned to the 1st Marine Division during the Siege of Fallujah, 1st Cavalry Division in Baghdad during the Sadr Uprising and to a special operations Detachment in Northern Iraq.


Your point?


I flew your ass there.....be happy none of us died

[Skirmisher]

So every member of a race has to rise up and fight back if they are not to be called cowards?

No no....Gan outlined his master plan earlier.

You must have missed it.

I shall recap.

"Next tuesday we all sneak out while Saddam isn't looking."

[Gan]

Of course in your opinion. No one else seems to be getting upset here. All we're doing is questioning your opinion, which I, for one, find to be a bit skewed.

As I find your logic in response to be a big skewed...


We agree to disagree! Even though neither of us have been there, so our opinions really dont count eh?

:lol:

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Narcissia....go there....you'll see.

Or are you too caught up in your "normal" life?

There's civilian companies hiring....of course....they get hanged and burned.

You mean Halliburton is hiring. And they get hanged and burned. Yes, you're right. It's too bad the Soldiers can't do more to stop that. :(

Really though, I chose not to go to Iraq. I didn't choose to not have an opinion on it. If you don't like it, sucks to be you. Obviously, not even everybody who went agrees with you. You tried pulling your "You don't understand" bullshit with Daniel and now I'm interested to see what your argument against him is going to be now that you know that he DOES understand.

Let me guess, because he's not there now he doesn't count, right? Or if his best friend wasn't shot in the head? Or if he didn't disarm the IUDs himself? What's it going to be this time?

[DeV]

IN MY OPINION.

Fleeing oppression is doing something about it.
:lol:We have immigration laws in this country for things like that.

Eg. Haiti.

It's not that easy.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

How many Iraqi's did you poll about Sadam? What is the breakdown on their opinion, what actions they took against said oppression, and whats the margin of error of your analysis?

He's not saying he's THE expert. He's expressing his opinion. So you don't agree? Ok. But don't think you're going to discredit his opinion just because he doesn't have the data that you don't have either.

[Gan]

No no....Gan outlined his master plan earlier.

You must have missed it.

I shall recap.

"Next tuesday we all sneak out while Saddam isn't looking."


Beautiful way to take that out of context.

I'm glad you're not the head of my family. I'd have kicked you out of the house for not wanting to take responsibility for the family.

The key is to DO SOMETHING. If you cant fight directly, fight indirectly, if you cant fight indirectly, then get the fuck out of the way.

If you have a family to be responsible for, which was brought up in the example of watching your family executed in front of you (which was a retarded analagy btw) then get the family out. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY, take action. Do something other than bitch whine and moan, and do nothing...

I applaud you, you'r leet BBS skillz in internet debate are showing through. No wonder they made you a MODERATOR!

:lol:

[Gan]

We have immigration laws in this country for things like that.

Eg. Haiti.

It's not that easy.

EG Mexico

It is that easy.

[GuildRat]

<You mean Halliburton is hiring. And they get hanged and burned. Yes, you're right. It's too bad the Soldiers can't do more to stop that>

You're right, I wish they'd have turned us loose at that time. I can't think of anyone that I know that didn't want to burn the Earth down at that time.

As far as disagreement with going, I won't argue, not everyone agreed.

Daniel went, did his job and came home. Much like most of us. However, there are many that went, and didn't come back alive.

[Daniel]

How many Iraqi's did you poll about Sadam? What is the breakdown on their opinion, what actions they took against said oppression, and whats the margin of error of your analysis?

Ganalon,

Please.

You've already blantly contradicted yourself. Let's not try and get technical now.

Let's recap the evolution of your arguing points:

1) Any group of people that doesn't rise up to fight is group of cowards.
2) The Indians were not cowards because they fought and were "defeated"
3) You don't believe the Iraqi's rose up because we had to remove Saddam for them
4) Plz quanitfy the amount of Iraqi's you personally know that rose up because I can't argue against documented facts and will thus try and make a ridiculous ad hominem argument to prove that there is no way I could personally know all the Iraqi's who rose up, and thus can not prove that they did.

I'd love to keep going from here, but I mean seriously. It's pretty pointless.

[Gan]

Nothing is more creative and fearsome than the human mind. If I had to get my family out of the country, regardless of what country, I would do it.

Saying you cant, is just an excuse.

I dont believe in the words "I cant".

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

<You mean Halliburton is hiring. And they get hanged and burned. Yes, you're right. It's too bad the Soldiers can't do more to stop that>

You're right, I wish they'd have turned us loose at that time. I can't think of anyone that I know that didn't want to burn the Earth down at that time.

As far as disagreement with going, I won't argue, not everyone agreed.

Daniel went, did his job and came home. Much like most of us. However, there are many that went, and didn't come back alive.

And that's supposed to change my opinion how?

Oh wait. It's not. It's just playing on that self-martyr, "I'm a hero" streak you've got going for yourself.

[Daniel]

Nothing is more creative and fearsome than the human mind. If I had to get my family out of the country, regardless of what country, I would do it.

Saying you cant, is just an excuse.

I dont believe in the words "I cant".

Good thing you live in a country where no one has the ability to show you what "You can't" means.

[GuildRat]

I don't give a flying fart what you think....seriously.

You'll never be more than a tax-payer to me.

[DeV]

Mexico does not compare to Haiti when it comes to oppression. Fleeing one oppressive situation for a better way of life where you are breaking the law and will face deportation if apprehended doesn't seem ideal to me.

If it was that easy our military would not be in Iraq right now liberating and extending freedoms to a group of people that haven't enjoyed them in years.

[Gan]

1) Any group of people that doesn't rise up to fight is group of cowards. Never said fight, I said take action. You're propping up your answer with false arguments.


2) The Indians were not cowards because they fought and were "defeated" Correct, I said that. They took action.


3) You don't believe the Iraqi's rose up because we had to remove Saddam for them. I dont believe ALL Iraqi's rose up, otherwise Sadam would not be there for us to remove. Those that did rise up, WERE NOT COWARDS...


4) Plz quanitfy the amount of Iraqi's you personally know that rose up because I can't argue against documented facts and will thus try and make a ridiculous ad hominem argument to prove that there is no way I could personally know all the Iraqi's who rose up, and thus can not prove that they did. Thanks for addressing your own claims.



I'd love to keep going from here, but I mean seriously. It's pretty pointless.

I'm enjoying your efforts, please, keep going.

[CrystalTears]

I don't give a flying fart what you think....seriously.

You'll never be more than a tax-payer to me.
And yet this is how the bitching started because you didn't like what someone had to say. The irony.

[Daniel]

The funny part is that Ganalon, since he totes the republican line by self admission, would be the first person up in arms about all those fucking haitian immigrants stealing his job.

[Gan]

Good thing you live in a country where no one has the ability to show you what "You can't" means.

U DONT NO ARMY B/C U R NOT ARMY....


thanks for the laugh. :lol:

[Skirmisher]

...
The key is to DO SOMETHING. If you cant fight directly, fight indirectly, if you cant fight indirectly, then get the fuck out of the way.

If you have a family to be responsible for, which was brought up in the example of watching your family executed in front of you (which was a retarded analagy btw) then get the family out. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY, take action. Do something other than bitch whine and moan, and do nothing...
...
That it could and did happen was retarded, I agree, yet calling it that does not somehow mean it did not happen.

Everyone pictures themselves a superhero until something really happens and your family really is in danger and then depending on the situation you may decide its safer and better for your family to wait until the time is right instead of walking up to the nearest policeman and telling him all you really think about Saddam or executing an ill prepared and low probablity plan of escape.

Sometimes swallowing your pride is exactly the right thing to do for your family.

I find you incredibly arrogant to feel it your place to call an entire country of people cowards.

[Gan]

The funny part is that Ganalon, since he totes the republican line by self admission, would be the first person up in arms about all those fucking haitian immigrants stealing his job.

Not really.

[GuildRat]

And yet this is how the bitching started because you didn't like what someone had to say. The irony.

CT, bite me, that's not true...back up and read the thread.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

And yet this is how the bitching started because you didn't like what someone had to say. The irony.

He thinks it started because my saying Bush was an Idiot insulted him as a Soldier :rofl:

Anyway. I don't care if you think I'm "just a taxpayer" because that's all you are to me too. That's pretty much all everybody is who's an American. A tax-payer, who can utilize their rights. You're not a special Hero.

[Daniel]

I dont believe ALL Iraqi's rose up, otherwise Sadam would not be there for us to remove. Those that did rise up, WERE NOT COWARDS...

So, in effect. You have been arguing absolutely nothing because you do not agree with Dave's initial post that characterized ALL Iraqi's as cowards.

To reiterate:

Some people in a country are pussies.

Thank you Capt Obvious.

I hope they put you in for Major for this.

[Gan]

I find you incredibly arrogant to feel it your place to call an entire country of people cowards.


Please reread my post. I highlighted somethings in red, bold, and underline for you so you can grasp what I said.

[Skirmisher]

Not really.

Gan has a spare room he'd like to loan one.

[Daniel]

Not really.

Don't let the party hear that.

[Skirmisher]

Please reread my post. I highlighted somethings in red, bold, and underline for you so you can grasp what I said.

Nice try to backtrack alot like Mr Guildrat who couldnt even spell the insult right before he realized what a schmuck he was coming across as.

[Sean of the Thread]

Wow simmer down there.. it's hard to tell you apart from them lately.

[Gan]

So, in effect. You have been arguing absolutely nothing because you do not agree with Dave's initial post that characterized ALL Iraqi's as cowards.

To reiterate:

Some people in a country are pussies.

Thank you Capt Obvious.

I hope they put you in for Major for this.

I guess they dont teach you to read for content in the ARMY.

Here, I even quoted it again for you.


Actualy, the Native Americans tried to resist colonization efforts. They simply failed. I dont consider them cowardice, just defeated.

I suppose the one hole in my argument would be the Shiite generation that Saddam wiped off the map for attempting to rebel.

The key, is that they took action. Sitting on your ass and accepting status quo doesnt count as taking action.

[Gan]

Nice try to backtrack alot like Mr Guildrat who couldnt even spell the insult right before he realized what a schmuck he was coming across as.


I'm going to create a law, much akin to Doyle's law about referencing Nazi in an internet debate and how it effectively kills the debate and the person mentioning it being the loser.

My law will be Ganalon's law. And forthwith it will say that when the respondant has to resort to calling out punctuation, spelling, and or grammatical errors in a debate where these are not the paramount topic; henceforth, the debate is effictely ended for said participant for THE LACK OF ANY SUBSTANTIAL INFORMATION BEING CONTRIBUTED FROM THAT POINT FORWARD.

Congrats!

You just won the honorary first award of Ganalon's Law!

[GuildRat]

He thinks it started because my saying Bush was an Idiot insulted him as a Soldier :rofl:

Anyway. I don't care if you think I'm "just a taxpayer" because that's all you are to me too. That's pretty much all everybody is who's an American. A tax-payer, who can utilize their rights. You're not a special Hero.

This isn't true at all. What I see, is a "Clintonesque" trying to persuade me that following what I'm told to do is wrong.

I get paid with tax dollars, true. The IRS does too, but rarely do Americans hate the IRS as much as a soldier.

I'm NOT a special hero, I'm still alive. I can name more than you can without looking at papers to those that are NOT alive.

So, according to you...I need to die, to become a "special hero". Damn, and here I was thinking that coming home alive was a good thing.

I'll try harder to die next time, I promise.

[Daniel]

I guess they dont teach you to read for content in the ARMY.

Here, I even quoted it again for you.

No, but they did teach me how to pay attention to details:

You posted this at 09-25-2006 08:54 PM (Probably still has me on Euro time)

You edited that post at 09-25-2006 08:53

[Skirmisher]

My law will be Ganalon's law. And forthwith it will say that when the respondant has to resort to calling out punctuation, spelling, and or grammatical errors in a debate where these are not the paramount topic. The debate is effictely ended for said participant for THE LACK OF ANY SUBSTANTIAL INFORMATION BEING CONTRIBUTED FROM THAT POINT FORWARD.

Congrats!

You just won the honorary first award of Ganalon's Law!

Way to miss the point being about his idiocy in making the insult in the first place but again.....I shouldnt expect any better.

[Sean]

I'm going to create a law, much akin to Doyle's law about referencing Nazi in an internet debate and how it effectively kills the debate and the person mentioning it being the loser.

My law will be Ganalon's law. And forthwith it will say that when the respondant has to resort to calling out punctuation, spelling, and or grammatical errors in a debate where these are not the paramount topic; henceforth, the debate is effictely ended for said participant for THE LACK OF ANY SUBSTANTIAL INFORMATION BEING CONTRIBUTED FROM THAT POINT FORWARD.

Congrats!

You just won the honorary first award of Ganalon's Law!

What substantial information has this post provided?

[Sean of the Thread]

pwnt

[DeV]

So, according to you...I need to die, to become a "special hero". Damn, and here I was thinking that coming home alive was a good thing.

:wtf: Where in her post did she say such a thing?

[Gan]

What substantial information has this post provided?

As a response.

Troll much?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

This isn't true at all. What I see, is a "Clintonesque" trying to persuade me that following what I'm told to do is wrong.

I get paid with tax dollars, true. The IRS does too, but rarely do Americans hate the IRS as much as a soldier.

I'm NOT a special hero, I'm still alive. I can name more than you can without looking at papers to those that are NOT alive.

So, according to you...I need to die, to become a "special hero". Damn, and here I was thinking that coming home alive was a good thing.

I'll try harder to die next time, I promise.


Ok. Here is my challenge to you:

1. Find a post where I tell you what you do is wrong. Post quotes here. They must be real and have a post number.

2. You pay taxes and happen to work for the Government. I fail to see how you working for the Government makes you so much greater than the factory workers who assemble the guns you use. Perhaps you could give a better explanation of what makes you personally so special.

3. Being able to name people that died doesn't have anything to do with anything, at least not to my knowledge. Explain why it does, if you think so.

4. Find a post where I say that in order to be a hero, you have to die. Post
quotes here. They must be real and have a post number.

5. You said that You aren't a special hero because you're alive, and then said according to ME, you have to be dead to be a special hero. Apparently you're transfering your own opinions over to me, then yelling at me about those opinions of yours. Why are you doing this, beyond you being a moron of course.

6. Rethink your statement of trying to die harder for my sake.. which isn't really my sake but your own, since it's your own view that you have to be dead to be a hero.

[Gan]

No, but they did teach me how to pay attention to details:

You posted this at 09-25-2006 08:54 PM (Probably still has me on Euro time)

You edited that post at 09-25-2006 08:53

I did edit it. Can you guess what the edit was?

As it stands, I still posted it way before you got off on your tangent, regardless of the edit.

Thanks for playing though.

[Sean]

As a response.

Troll much?

Only when your fishing for it, the baits tasty what can I say.

[Daniel]

Lol okay.

So I mischaracterized your argument.

Instead of "All Iraqis are cowards"

You meant,

All Iraqis except the Kurds and Shiites.

Leaving the Sunni Majority that were in power.

Spectacular argument.

You should run for office.

[Sean of the Thread]

Kurds = Sunni

[Gan]

Only when your fishing for it, the baits tasty what can I say.

Thanks for contributing.... Troll.

[Daniel]

Even if that were entirely true (its not), there is a distinct ethnic difference between the Arab and Kurdish sunnis that have served as a sizable rift between the two groups.

[Gan]

Lol okay.

So I mischaracterized your argument.

Instead of "All Iraqis are cowards"

You meant,

All Iraqis except the Kurds and Shiites.

Leaving the Sunni Majority that were in power.

Spectacular argument.

You should run for office.

Thanks for seeing the light.

[Sean of the Thread]

"Today the majority of Kurds are officially Muslim, belonging to the Shafi school, and to a much lesser degree, the Hanafi school, both of Sunni Islam."

[Daniel]

The Kurds also have a pretty significant Christian community in northern Iraq.

[TheEschaton]

Alright. I knew my contention would cause a minor shitstorm among our soldier types, but not this large. Here is my reasoning:

I find the killing of a human being, for any reason, to be cowardly and disgusting.

Soldiers, in this post-draft era, sign on knowing that there is a possibility of having to kill another human being.

This, to me, is cowardly. It is not the same as calling all of Iraqis cowardly because they did not consciously decide to be oppressed by Saddam, nor did the consciously decide to be invaded by American forces. Again, to make a conscious decision to commit a wrong act is, in my opinion, cowardly.

Some would argue that some of the people who sign up are doing so for economic and educational reasons, hoping to be in a peacetime situation where they don't actually have to raise a gun. In this case, you're playing a lottery - hope you get benefit without having to have the detriment. What bothers me is that the massive detriment is the MAIN purpose, which is oftentimes at an idle state, whereas the economic/educational benefits are side benefits. The military wasn't created to pay people and educate them. It was created for war.

Again, it should be repeated, all the above is my opinion. It is based on a nonviolent point of view in life, and if you want to discuss the merits of non-violence vs. reasonable force vs. warmongering, fine. Edited to add: If you want to discuss the (im)morality of killing someone else, I guess that's up for contention too.

Secondly. I disagree that if you have not been in a situation, you are unable, or have no right, to speak to that situation. I've never been a victim of domestic violence, nor have I ever treated a woman badly. Does that mean I cannot speak against domestic violence? What about the poor husbands, who I don't understand cause I've never beat my girlfriend, who beseech me, "But you've never been in my situation, she had it coming!" Before the idiocies of others kicks in, I am not comparing soldiering to domestic violence. I am merely saying it is fallacy to content that because I'm not a part of a situation, I cannot have an opinion about it, nor, in some way, understand it.

Thirdly, Daniel, don't assume to know what my life has been like. I have been on this message board for, what, 3 years, which is about the extent of our relationship, and you know nothing, really, of any substance about my life prior to that, because I've chosen not to tell you anything but the biographical info.

Fourthly:

This isn't true at all. What I see, is a "Clintonesque" trying to persuade me that following what I'm told to do is wrong.

Following orders is wrong when the orders are wrong. This was upheld at Nuremburg, if you don't remember. I am not comparing Iraq to Nazi Germany, therefore Doyle's Law doesn't apply. I am merely saying "following orders" is never a valid excuse for moral reasoning.

Now...let the games begin.

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

The Kurds also have a pretty significant Christian community in northern Iraq.

That would be the minority.. the opposite of Majority.

[Daniel]

...

Okay?

[GuildRat]

1. I can't find one.

2. I could care less about punk-assed union people, as the unions have screwed the US since 1980.

3. Being able to put faces with names, brings the conflict closer to home.

4. I'll be back in Iraq or Afghanistan, before you'll ever even think of learing the language.

4. I'm not a SPECIAL HERO, even tho for the past 18 years I've been in the military, protecting whatever rights you think you've earned, just for being born in the US.

5. I'm damned proud to be a member of the US military, whether it be a liberal democrat in charge, or a conservative in the Oval Office.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

1. I can't find one.

Thanks, That's all I wanted to hear. I don't give a fuck if you clean the sewers or serve in Iraq, one isn't better than the other and I'm not changing my mind on that.

[Daniel]

I find the killing of a human being, for any reason, to be cowardly and disgusting.

Hence the disagreement. This is a ridiculous, ill-informed and ultimately privledged perspective.


I am merely saying it is fallacy to content that because I'm not a part of a situation, I cannot have an opinion about it, nor, in some way, understand it.

There is a distinct difference between the two. IF you don't mean to compare them, than I suggest you come up with another analogy.


Thirdly, Daniel, don't assume to know what my life has been like. I have been on this message board for, what, 3 years, which is about the extent of our relationship, and you know nothing, really, of any substance about my life prior to that, because I've chosen not to tell you anything but the biographical info.

Even if you hadn't posted about your parents before, your biographical information is more than enough.

You went to a top tier college, you had the economic resourses to devote to "volunteering" in Africa and now you are in law school.

I'd say its a pretty safe bet you haven't had to endure many hardships in your life.

If you want us to believe that you somehow know what its like to be in a life or death situation, when the well being of not only yourself, but the people around you, and the people that you are about are at risk, then feel free to prove it.

[Sean of the Thread]

Who's the one hiding behind the barrel of a gun, jackass?

-TheE-

I think you got this all mixed up...Dave's teeth hide from the barrel of a gun.

[GuildRat]

Thanks, That's all I wanted to hear. I don't give a fuck if you clean the sewers or serve in Iraq, one isn't better than the other and I'm not changing my mind on that.

Then clean your ass-hole....I don't care....same as a sewer to me.

It must be nice to reap the bennies of someone else's work.

[Daniel]

Hence the disagreement. This is a ridiculous, ill-informed and ultimately privledged perspective.


To fend off the inevitable Ghandi and MLK reference, I'll reiterate what I said to HN earlier.

Both of these individuals had the privledge, or luxury to be in a position where they had a considerable amount of non-violent power to utilize.

However, the vast majority of the displaced peoples in the world do not have that luxury and most resort to whatever means is neccessary to ensure the well being of themselves and those who they are responsible to.

Does that make violence right in all situations? Of course not.

Does it mean that its a preference or good thing? Not at all.

It just means it is neccessary at some point.

If you don't think so, then I'd say you've lived a pretty sheltered life and should be thankful that you have the ability to think that way.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Then clean your ass-hole....I don't care....same as a sewer to me.

It must be nice to reap the bennies of someone else's work.

You of all people understand that, seeing as how you're paid off of what's shaved off the top of Civilian paychecks.

[GuildRat]

You of all people understand that, seeing as how you're paid off of what's shaved off the top of Civilian paychecks.

Believe that sister, as I pay at least 40% of my own paycheck. FOAD will ya?

[TheEschaton]

Hence the disagreement. This is a ridiculous, ill-informed and ultimately privledged perspective.

It's your right to think my opinion is ridiculous, and ill-informed, but I'd like clarification on why you think it is ultimately privileged? Because I've never had to kill someone, I can think it's cowardly and disgusting? Because I haven't HAD to kill someone, I can pontificate from a soap box? WTF is HAD to, anyways? If you are a soldier, in Iraq, of your own volition, having been of sound mind when you signed up, you have put yourself in that situation. And yet, morally, you still didn't HAVE to do anything. The situation is obviously different if you were born into it, but no one, last I checked, was born a soldier.

-TheE-

[GuildRat]

It's your right to think my opinion is ridiculous, and ill-informed, but I'd like clarification on why you think it is ultimately privileged? Because I've never had to kill someone, I can think it's cowardly and disgusting? Because I haven't HAD to kill someone, I can pontificate from a soap box? WTF is HAD to, anyways? If you are a soldier, in Iraq, of your own volition, having been of sound mind when you signed up, you have put yourself in that situation. And yet, morally, you still didn't HAVE to do anything. The situation is obviously different if you were born into it, but no one, last I checked, was born a soldier.

-TheE-


I totally agree, we make choices, and we live by them. I don't harbor any hard feelings toward anyone that takes it upon themselves to do good in the world.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Believe that sister, as I pay at least 40% of my own paycheck. FOAD will ya?

And I work for 100 percent of mine, and give up part of that for you and other service people. As do all of the other civilians who according to you are non-Patriotic and suck.

Anyway. Enough of attempting a conversation with you. I think maybe you need to go see a therapist or something before you'll be comprehendable.

---------
In a seperate line of thought:

In some ways I agree with Ganalon, in some ways I disagree. The same thing with the E. However, I am going to side with the E that we're not really in a position to judge how his life has been. His course of action (peace corps, law school) is startlingly similar to goals of my own and I can assure you I didn't grow up "privilidged" just because I value helping people and a higher education. Maybe he appears to be but even given what we know about the E, we can't say for sure what his life has been like.

[TheEschaton]

Force is sometimes necessary, but violence, I don't believe, is ever necessary.

As for being sheltered or not, I'm not gonna get in an argument of whether my e-peen is bigger than yours or not, I'm sure you have much more experience in the so-called situations of life where you HAD to be violent. Needless to say - I have been subject to violence in my life, and I have committed violence against others. I don't think any of it was necessary in the end at all. I was lucky in that, in the end, I was A) able to run back to my parents who lived in a far different world, and B) unfairly gifted enough to score well on a standardized 3 hour exam without any real effort besides that of sobering up to get into a "top tier" school without deserving it. But it was purely luck. And, maybe it colored my experience that I chose to experience such things and wasn't forced to live it from day 1, but there you have it.

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

ROFL at the retarded I pay your salary statements. Used that one on a police officer lately?

[GuildRat]

Whatever, I hate that you get paper cuts every now and then. I'd rather people like you NOT pay my salaray...ingrates.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

ROFL at the retarded I pay your salary statements. Used that one on a police officer lately?

If the Officer claims to hate the Civilians he's supposed to be protecting, then yes, I'll totally use that on him. Learn to read context before you read a statement.

And in my line of work, I don't get papercuts.. though sometimes the children do and need me for comfort, which I'm more than happy to give.

[GuildRat]

I call boolshit as she claims to pay the salary of all that serve her. That means every fireman that died in the WTC towers and all the cops and NG's'men that did.


Fuck that....I'll pay myself.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I call boolshit as she claims to pay the salary of all that serve her. That means every fireman that died in the WTC towers and all the cops and NG's'men that did.


Fuck that....I'll pay myself.


Once again you don't read what I actually post as what I post but as what you interpret.

You: Civilians suck.
Me: Civilians provide a lot of things the military need.
You: Well, we provide you protection.
Me: If we suck, then why do you provide us protection? And we're still providing you with money and equipment either way.
You: OMG MUST BE NICE TO REAP THE BENEFITS YOU DON'T WORK FOR.
Me: Well you reap the money I work for when me and everyone else pays taxes.
You: Your money doesn't pay me, and I'd rather it didn't anyway.
Me: Taxpayer money does pay your salary.
You: OMG SHE THINKS SHE PAYS THE ENTIRE SALARY OF EVERY GOVERNMENT WORKER WHO HAS TO SERVE HER. I CAN PAY MYSELF.

And yeah, by the way, all of those working during 9-11 (Hospital and Aid workers, NYPD, NYFD, National Guard, etc etc).. Taxpayers, including myself, contributed to their salaries. This is a fact of life. I don't know what you're trying to argue.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You people have been arguing for pages over what some idiot who couldn't cut it as an optometrist technician said.

I don't agree with Dave (he's a moron). I don't completely agree with E or Daniel, but I definately respect both of them for doing what they believe in.

The problem with trying to apply the term coward to an entire body/group/message board/family of people, is that you can't do so 100% of the time. There are cowards in the military, in the peace corp, in law school, etc, etc, etc. You just can't say everyone is one.

[GuildRat]

You people have been arguing for pages over what some idiot who couldn't cut it as an optometrist technician said.

I don't agree with Dave (he's a moron). I don't completely agree with E or Daniel, but I definately respect both of them for doing what they believe in.

The problem with trying to apply the term coward to an entire body/group/message board/family of people, is that you can't do so 100% of the time. There are cowards in the military, in the peace corp, in law school, etc, etc, etc. You just can't say everyone is one.

I agree, again. Not all Iraqis are cowards. However, after seeing 500+ Iraqi soldiers going AWOL, with american bought weapons, before the battle of Fallujha...It's hard to comprehend anything else.

I believe the Iraqis that stood up and voted for a new government are heroic in their own sense. They circumnavigated those persons that would've denied them the right to vote, and pressed forward against those that would inhibit free-rule in the country.

[Daniel]

It's your right to think my opinion is ridiculous, and ill-informed, but I'd like clarification on why you think it is ultimately privileged?

-TheE-

Sure thing.

First, lets step back from the particular conflict that you've decided to voice your opinion about because my opinion ultimately resides in circumstances that are far beyond the US military and the Iraq conflict.

Let's talk about the world.

As we speak, there a millions of people dying for entirely preventable causes, for entirely bullshit reasons. As I type, there are billions of people starving when agriculture exceeds the consumption needs of the world multiple times.There are resources for some of these people to mitigate their circumstances, but for such wide ranging factors as the lack of knowledge pertaining to these opportunities to plan ol' laziness they are unable to take advantage of these.

However, for the vast majority of these people the thing that stands between them and access to their basic human needs is a person\group\system that precludes them from the most basic of amnemities. To these people, concepts such as "Human Rights", "Universal Brotherhood", and the "Millenium Development goals" are nothing but far fetched and empty notions dreamt up by people in their deluxe apartment in the sky because the reality is that their problems begin and end with the rest of the human race.

To be more than fair, this doesn't always mean that someone has to resort to violence to fulfil their needs. Indeed, there are plenty of well documented cases where someone is able to appeal to a higher power, or notion of morality to secure what they deserved all along. However, in the real world there are those that stand in the way of progress of others for no other reason than their own personal avarice and pleasure. These are the same people that have no qualms about using violence and force to continually oppress others. The universal declaration of human rights doesn't mean jack shit to these people. (And yes I'm including the US in certain circumstances in this)

So, why do I say that you have the luxury of adopting a pacifist attitude toward life?

That's easy. It's because you've never been in a situation where you *had* no choice. You've never had to worry about how you'd provide for yourself and your family, long term. You've never found yourself in a situation so desolute that hope is nothing but a fancy word keeping you from insanity. You had parents who could provide for you in times of need. Whereas, others have to provide for their parents well before they would have ever had the chance to take that "3 hour exam" that got you into that top tier university.

I don't begrudge you for the privledge you've had in life. If anything, my hope is that even more people can have the ability to make the choices you've made in life and I say that with complete sincerity.

Now lets bring it back within the context of the Iraq.

The vast majority of the Iraqi people found themselves in a highly pernicious environment, and most if any had no absolutely recourse for a better future. There was no political system to air their grievences. Any uprisings or violence was met with horrifying violence in return

Things were degenerating almost by the day and to make things worse, the international community didn't give a fuck.

I personally feel that *I* have a responsibility to help those who do not have the options *I* had. There is no choice involved. Furthermore, I believe that we as a country should be dedicated to bringing freedom and the opportunity of life to the people who don't have it. In both cases, if that means having to resort to picking up a gun, then so be it.

However, until you've taken that responsbility on yourself, don't presume to tell me what sort of intestinal fortitude it takes to pull a trigger because you have no idea. You have never had to seriously considering doing it, and thats why you can not begin to understand what it takes to do so.

To take things one step further; This doesn't mean that the United States has a blank check for its actions around the world. In fact, it should be held to a higher standard than anyone else, if we are to do anything about the problems of the world. However, we can not let our past actions or mistakes cause us to abandon the responsibility we have towards the world.

I hope that answers your question.

[GuildRat]

<<Furthermore, I believe that we as a country should be dedicated to bringing freedom and the opportunity of life to the people who don't have it>>

I tend to agree with this. Unfortunately, if there's a conflict that goes unnoticed by the media, no one seems to see it.

Kudos, Daniel.

[Jolena]

Sure thing.

First, lets step back from the particular conflict that you've decided to voice your opinion about because my opinion ultimately resides in circumstances that are far beyond the US military and the Iraq conflict.

Let's talk about the world.

As we speak, there a millions of people dying for entirely preventable causes, for entirely bullshit reasons. As I type, there are billions of people starving when agriculture exceeds the consumption needs of the world multiple times.There are resources for some of these people to mitigate their circumstances, but for such wide ranging factors as the lack of knowledge pertaining to these opportunities to plan ol' laziness they are unable to take advantage of these.

However, for the vast majority of these people the thing that stands between them and access to their basic human needs is a person\group\system that precludes them from the most basic of amnemities. To these people, concepts such as "Human Rights", "Universal Brotherhood", and the "Millenium Development goals" are nothing but far fetched and empty notions dreamt up by people in their deluxe apartment in the sky because the reality is that their problems begin and end with the rest of the human race.

To be more than fair, this doesn't always mean that someone has to resort to violence to fulfil their needs. Indeed, there are plenty of well documented cases where someone is able to appeal to a higher power, or notion of morality to secure what they deserved all along. However, in the real world there are those that stand in the way of progress of others for no other reason than their own personal avarice and pleasure. These are the same people that have no qualms about using violence and force to continually oppress others. The universal declaration of human rights doesn't mean jack shit to these people. (And yes I'm including the US in certain circumstances in this)

So, why do I say that you have the luxury of adopting a pacifist attitude toward life?

That's easy. It's because you've never been in a situation where you *had* no choice. You've never had to worry about how you'd provide for yourself and your family, long term. You've never found yourself in a situation so desolute that hope is nothing but a fancy word keeping you from insanity. You had parents who could provide for you in times of need. Whereas, others have to provide for their parents well before they would have ever had the chance to take that "3 hour exam" that got you into that top tier university.

I don't begrudge you for the privledge you've had in life. If anything, my hope is that even more people can have the ability to make the choices you've made in life and I say that with complete sincerity.

Now lets bring it back within the context of the Iraq.

The vast majority of the Iraqi people found themselves in a highly pernicious environment, and most if any had no absolutely recourse for a better future. There was no political system to air their grievences. Any uprisings or violence was met with horrifying violence in return

Things were degenerating almost by the day and to make things worse, the international community didn't give a fuck.

I personally feel that *I* have a responsibility to help those who do not have the options *I* had. There is no choice involved. Furthermore, I believe that we as a country should be dedicated to bringing freedom and the opportunity of life to the people who don't have it. In both cases, if that means having to resort to picking up a gun, then so be it.

However, until you've taken that responsbility on yourself, don't presume to tell me what sort of intestinal fortitude it takes to pull a trigger because you have no idea. You have never had to seriously considering doing it, and thats why you can not begin to understand what it takes to do so.

To take things one step further; This doesn't mean that the United States has a blank check for its actions around the world. In fact, it should be held to a higher standard than anyone else, if we are to do anything about the problems of the world. However, we can not let our past actions or mistakes cause us to abandon the responsibility we have towards the world.

I hope that answers your question.

Wow, well done, Daniel. Very well spoken.

[GuildRat]

<<I personally feel that *I* have a responsibility to help those who do not have the options *I* had. There is no choice involved. Furthermore, I believe that we as a country should be dedicated to bringing freedom and the opportunity of life to the people who don't have it. In both cases, if that means having to resort to picking up a gun, then so be it.>>

That sums it all up for me, again...Kudos, Daniel.

[Gan]

I personally feel that *I* have a responsibility to help those who do not have the options *I* had. There is no choice involved. Furthermore, I believe that we as a country should be dedicated to bringing freedom and the opportunity of life to the people who don't have it. In both cases, if that means having to resort to picking up a gun, then so be it.

To take things one step further; This doesn't mean that the United States has a blank check for its actions around the world. In fact, it should be held to a higher standard than anyone else, if we are to do anything about the problems of the world. However, we can not let our past actions or mistakes cause us to abandon the responsibility we have towards the world.

Agreed.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Agreed.

Same here.

[HarmNone]

Its very easy to say you could leave your country or fight the oppressors when you're safe and warm at home. I imagine it is a very cold and different story when you're practically in a third world country.

Most have no idea how true this statement is. No idea. It's not about being in a country that is practically a third world country. It's about being in a country that is absolutely a third world country. Hopping up and high-tailing it isn't always an option, for far too many reasons than I could possibly include here.

[Hulkein]

Nice post D.

[Gan]

Most have no idea how true this statement is. No idea. It's not about being in a country that is practically a third world country. It's about being in a country that is absolutely a third world country. Hopping up and high-tailing it isn't always an option, for far too many reasons than I could possibly include here.

I disagree. God gave you two feet for a reason. I can think of very little that could stop a person, shy of killing them, from putting one foot in front of another in order to get to a safer place if that avenue was available to them.

Even in an oppressed state, one can not be watched so closely, to the extent that they could not walk out the door and keep walking, if they truely wanted to get out. Where they decide to go requires greater forethought and research. But you can always GTFO of almost any situation aside from being locked in a prison where egress and movement is monitored on a person by person basis.

[HarmNone]

Unfortunately, not every country, nor every area of every country allows one to just get up and walk off. There is a matter of terrain, the availability of food (especially, when one is moving one's whole family, including babies and young children and, possibly, elderly relatives). Not everyone has transportation. Food (and, especially, water) can be almost impossible to come by, and there isn't a town 10 miles down the road (if there's a road).

The matter of seeing your entire family slaughtered before your eyes is real, Ganalon. You're seen on the road, making for the border and here comes a horde of killers bent on stopping you. They don't do it kindly. They don't give you a ticket for loitering, or arrest you for trespassing. They kill your family as you watch, often with slow torture. Then, they do the same to you.

Reality in some countries is not reality as we know it.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I disagree. God gave you two feet for a reason. I can think of very little that could stop a person, shy of killing them, from putting one foot in front of another in order to get to a safer place if that avenue was available to them.

Even in an oppressed state, one can not be watched so closely, to the extent that they could not walk out the door and keep walking, if they truely wanted to get out. Where they decide to go requires greater forethought and research. But you can always GTFO of almost any situation aside from being locked in a prison where egress and movement is monitored on a person by person basis.

Let's say you've been pregnant and just gave birth to an infant. Now lets say that there's been a regime change who has closed the borders, and shoots ANYBODY on site who's attempting to cross. Let's say you also know that people who are thought to be in any revolutionary cells are tortured and killed.

Obviously, the country is not free and is quite oppressive. It violates human rights. However, what's a mother to do? Personally, I can't say what I'd do in that situation, and I applaud the mother no matter her decision. Either take a huge risk of killing herself and her baby just to escape into another possibly hostile country, or take the risk of being wrongfully implicated and killed by staying home with your baby, at least somewhat safer.

I don't think many people on these boards have been faced with situations like that but who are we to judge those who have? I think the mother's dilemna does not offer a choice of bravery or cowardice.. either one can be construed as either.

[Skirmisher]

I disagree. God gave you two feet for a reason. I can think of very little that could stop a person, shy of killing them, from putting one foot in front of another in order to get to a safer place if that avenue was available to them.

Even in an oppressed state, one can not be watched so closely, to the extent that they could not walk out the door and keep walking, if they truely wanted to get out. Where they decide to go requires greater forethought and research. But you can always GTFO of almost any situation aside from being locked in a prison where egress and movement is monitored on a person by person basis.

Alright, so purely for the sake of argument lets say that your assertion was correct.

Explain for me how it is you have figured out that this has come to be.

What sequence of events has transpired to bring an entire nation's population of cowards to being together.

I mean i assume normally there are cowards as you term thern scattered about but here we have according to you nearly a complete population consisting of them.

How exactly did that come to pass?

[Artha]

Now lets say that there's been a regime change who has closed the borders, and shoots ANYBODY on site who's attempting to cross. Let's say you also know that people who are thought to be in any revolutionary cells are tortured and killed.

So practically, East Germany during the Soviet occupation. It's fairly common knowledge that people went to great lengths to leave, though I don't know how many of them were preggers.

[ElanthianSiren]

What I see, is
rarely do Americans hate the IRS as much as a soldier.

I'm NOT a special hero, I'm still alive. I can name more than you can without looking at papers to those that are NOT alive.

So, according to you...I need to die, to become a "special hero". Damn, and here I was thinking that coming home alive was a good thing.

I'll try harder to die next time, I promise.

stop...right.... there.

I'm so sick of this shit, honestly. The argument that people are trying to turn the popular opinion of soldiers into some Vietnam-esque character assassination is bullshit. I can't say I've ever seen a publically televised protest where civilians are running around like in Nam calling soldiers baby killers. Where the HELL are you getting this opinion of civilians? It's pretty damn disingenous.

You're still alive. That's awesome. You know what? For this clusterfuck called Iraqi Freedom, I'm supporting two highschool classmates serving and the ex admin of this forum, praying that none of them turn up dead, and I was one of literally HUNDREDS lining a procession when another marine (John Todd) was killed from my hometown and what was left of him was returned to bury. GOOD FOR YOU -- YOU ARE STILL ALIVE. Back the fuck up and realize that almost every civilian that you have stepped on in about 30 pages of posts now has someone very close to them that they're praying for day in and day out, many of us the entire force. That's right, we're paying taxes to pay for and praying to god/allah/krishna/buddha/the force/whomever that your martyristic ass is "safe".

The army is voluntary. While I applaud your decision to go, some of us were told we were ineligable to serve and others have chosen NOT to go (which is their right). That doesn't mean people at home are running some smear campaign against the soldiers actually serving in Iraq/Afghanistan. If your issue is the characterization of the Bush administration, (CIC), back up again and realize that's politics in a wartime election year, and don't expect it to change because this is the only full-scale active war you've possibly seen in your lifetime. Go watch some news footage during NAM before you complain about how much everyone "hates" soldiers now.

-M

[Sean of the Thread]

The idiot parade marches on .. 176 posts and counting.

[TheEschaton]

Daniel, first, I have to say, that was a very well thought out post. With most of it, I agree. So obviously I'm going to speak to the piece I don't agree with.


I personally feel that *I* have a responsibility to help those who do not have the options *I* had. There is no choice involved. Furthermore, I believe that we as a country should be dedicated to bringing freedom and the opportunity of life to the people who don't have it. In both cases, if that means having to resort to picking up a gun, then so be it.

With the first two sentences I wholeheartedly agree. The third sentence I disagree with - we can not "bring" freedom, we can only BE free, and serve as an example of the beauty of freedom (I happen to think we don't serve as such a good example). Forcing something on someone is not possible, you can only hope to serve as Dostoevsky said in the Brothers Karamazov, "as the light for the oppressed, huddling in the darkness."

Now, for your last sentence. You may argue that it's very ivory tower for me to say it, that I'm being impractical, but should we abandon the moral means to a moral end just because it currently isn't working? Should we use immoral means to reach a moral end? Are the means moral just because the end is moral? I think the answer to all three of these questions is no.

However, this is the great moral dilemma of human history: Do we do things morally, to reach a moral end, and correct an immoral wrong, or do we do things immorally or justify normally immoral things as moral to more quickly alleviate an immoral wrong, and prevent immediate pain and suffering? I plead the former, firstly because I believe that the ends never justify the means (an idealist, ivory tower approach), but also, because I believe on a PRACTICAL, PRAGMATIC, REALISTIC level that the latter leads to more conflict, more injustice, that the immoral means to solve an immoral problem leads to another immoral, intolerable situation.

In other words, violence begets violence, peace begets peace.

You accuse me of being idealistic and ivory towerish, but I would say you are being short-sighted. It sounds callous if you think of it in the short term - you might accuse me of being willing to sacrifice people now when we can "save" them from oppression and harm. I would say I mourn them completely, but to "save" them in the manner you wish to save them I truly believe will lead to the deaths of countless more.

Oh, and again, you seek to assume I've never wanted to kill anyone, nor ever taken action to try and do so. I am a pacifist, now, but I haven't always been, and even had I been, no one is perfect at what they view their ideal self as.

-TheE-

[StrayRogue]

I disagree. God gave you two feet for a reason. I can think of very little that could stop a person, shy of killing them, from putting one foot in front of another in order to get to a safer place if that avenue was available to them.



While I don't really want to get into this hypothetical debate again, I can list a few things that might stop a person running away:

The border is two hundred miles away. The roads have been laced with mines or are bombed to shit. You have no car. Also under your care is an infirm elder grandmother, eight children and food for three days. You have no weapons and regular patrols are killing anyone making for freedom.

OR, a friend/loved one/relative has disappeared in an explosion or military roundup. Do you run away, or stay and hope you'll find them?

It really isn't such an easy choice to make no matter how black and white you try to paint it.

[HarmNone]

Nope. Don't even THINK about it. Personal jabs that are totally unrelated to the matters under discussion will be removed.

[StrayRogue]

Thankyou.

[sst]

not even worth it

[Gan]

Unfortunately, not every country, nor every area of every country allows one to just get up and walk off. There is a matter of terrain, the availability of food (especially, when one is moving one's whole family, including babies and young children and, possibly, elderly relatives). Not everyone has transportation. Food (and, especially, water) can be almost impossible to come by, and there isn't a town 10 miles down the road (if there's a road).

The matter of seeing your entire family slaughtered before your eyes is real, Ganalon. You're seen on the road, making for the border and here comes a horde of killers bent on stopping you. They don't do it kindly. They don't give you a ticket for loitering, or arrest you for trespassing. They kill your family as you watch, often with slow torture. Then, they do the same to you.

Reality in some countries is not reality as we know it.

Ih have two living breathing examples that I know personally who contradict this.

The first is my neighbor two houses down. He escaped from mainland China 12 years ago with his wife and daughter. I speak with him regularly as we work on our yards every Thursday and then sit outside and visit. His english is better than other native Americans I know. Listening to him describe what he went through to get his family over here is nothing short of superhuman. But he did it. And he has the same opinion as I do. If others wanted to leave, they should. All it requires is planning, using your brain, and your feet.

Or you can take the Vietnamese lady who used to work for me. Her father was a high ranking official with the SVA back during the VietNam war. He escaped Vietnam with his wife and two daughters and son with nothing more than the clothes on their back. I've listened to their story and it also is insane, but they did it.

These are real people, not hypotheticals, that escaped seriously bad environments during seriously bad times. So no, I refuse to believe that every circumstance of oppression prohibits one from escaping. Yes it makes it harder in some circumstances, but not impossible.

[Gan]

Let's say you've been pregnant and just gave birth to an infant. Now lets say that there's been a regime change who has closed the borders, and shoots ANYBODY on site who's attempting to cross. Let's say you also know that people who are thought to be in any revolutionary cells are tortured and killed.

Obviously, the country is not free and is quite oppressive. It violates human rights. However, what's a mother to do? Personally, I can't say what I'd do in that situation, and I applaud the mother no matter her decision. Either take a huge risk of killing herself and her baby just to escape into another possibly hostile country, or take the risk of being wrongfully implicated and killed by staying home with your baby, at least somewhat safer.

I don't think many people on these boards have been faced with situations like that but who are we to judge those who have? I think the mother's dilemna does not offer a choice of bravery or cowardice.. either one can be construed as either.

Thank god you left out the one legged blind deaf man analagy. I dont know if I could have topped that one...

Please stick to reality, common sense and the like.

[Gan]

Alright, so purely for the sake of argument lets say that your assertion was correct. Thanks.


Explain for me how it is you have figured out that this has come to be. Two living breathing examples, since I'm just a domesticated American who's never been outside our borders unless you count vacations in Cancun. See the above post to HN.


What sequence of events has transpired to bring an entire nation's population of cowards to being together.So we're continuing that line of thought? Ok, cool. Refer to my earlier definition. Knowing that something is wrong and refusing to take action to change it. Now apply that to the [corrected] formulae of Daniel's X-1. Whom do you think the -1 segment of the Iraqi population would be? And based on my applied definition how do you think they are not cowards?


I mean i assume normally there are cowards as you term thern scattered about but here we have according to you nearly a complete population consisting of them.See above.


How exactly did that come to pass?Do you like asking the same question over and over? See above.

[DeV]

So no, I refuse to believe that every circumstance of oppression prohibits one from escaping. I don't recall seeing anyone state differently. "Every circumstance" is certainly a very broad generalization and one more along the lines of "every Iraqi is a coward", completely overlooking the one or two success stories such as the one you described below that are able to rise above the rest. I applaud people that like, truly, but we cannot reasonably expect that everyone in an oppressed state will possess the same attributes necessary to remove themself and their family from a dire situation in a third-world country we've only studied about in history books for the most part.
Yes it makes it harder in some circumstances, but not impossible.It is not impossible, but it is damn near in some situations and not every country is willing or ready to accept every refugee that comes seeking peace, liberty, and a pursuit of happiness.

Inaction does not usually equate to cowardice. In some cases, refusing to flee from an oppressive situation because you truly love the country you live and wish to initiate change from within, no matter how little that change seems to the outside observer, takes courage, imo.

[Gan]

Inaction does not usually equate to cowardice. In some cases, refusing to flee from an oppressive situation because you truly love the country you live and wish to initiate change from within, no matter how little that change seems to the outside observer, takes courage, imo.

Thats the first step! Now acting upon that wish, in ANY way and not acting upon it at all is what I define as not showing cowardice and showing cowardice.

[Skirmisher]

Thanks.

So we're continuing that line of thought? Ok, cool. Refer to my earlier definition. Knowing that something is wrong and refusing to take action to change it. Now apply that to the [corrected] formulae of Daniel's X-1. Whom do you think the -1 segment of the Iraqi population would be? And based on my applied definition how do you think they are not cowards?

No, you cannot refer to a huge group of people in such a derogatory manner and then require for me to prove they are not.

Make your own case sir.

X-1 or what have you, explain how such a grouping came to pass.

Or on the other hand you could just back up and come to the conclusion you were talking without thinking and said something that makes no sense.

[DeV]

This is where cowardice does not mean all Iraqui's are bad people, it just means that they have been and are still mostly afraid to stand up for themselves. You dont have to be afraid to wield a gun to be a coward, you have to just be afraid to seek change for the better, regardless if its through violent or non violent means.

So it is safe to consider most of this to be pure speculation primarily because neither you or I have any direct knowledge, yet, of individuals who have sought change from within. In the process doing exactly as we've both described as an important first step. Just one example of a person doing opposite of what you suggest would disprove the theory that "all" are cowards.

Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened in some way, shape, or form. For Dave to make the assumption that all Iraqis are cowards is false and unsubstantiated. For starters, he's never met "all Iraqis" to make that claim and has no idea what, if any has been accomplished by even a single individual seeking change, and it's even more likely that such a feet would go largely undocumented for the time being.

[Daniel]

Or on the other hand you could just back up and come to the conclusion you were talking without thinking and said something that makes no sense.

That would be the best method instead of trying to disapprove what hes already proven by backtracking, rephrasing and revising his argument to fit the flavor of the moment.

[Daniel]

Daniel, first, I have to say, that was a very well thought out post. With most of it, I agree. So obviously I'm going to speak to the piece I don't agree with.



With the first two sentences I wholeheartedly agree. The third sentence I disagree with - we can not "bring" freedom, we can only BE free, and serve as an example of the beauty of freedom.



I disagree.

First and foremost because the way our world operates its almost impossible to not come in contact with peoples around the world. Therefore, we should ensure that that contact has a positive effect, instead of maintaining the status quo because "its not our place".



(I happen to think we don't serve as such a good example). Forcing something on someone is not possible, you can only hope to serve as Dostoevsky said in the Brothers Karamazov, "as the light for the oppressed, huddling in the darkness."


How you "force" freedom is beyond me. I say all you can really do is remove the impediments and allow people to make their own decisions. That doesn't mean that things will go smoothly and nicely. To the contrary, but that shouldn't *stop* you.



Now, for your last sentence. You may argue that it's very ivory tower for me to say it, that I'm being impractical, but should we abandon the moral means to a moral end just because it currently isn't working? Should we use immoral means to reach a moral end? Are the means moral just because the end is moral? I think the answer to all three of these questions is no.


Morals are a usually the foray of the people that don't have to deal with the consequences of living with them.

but to humor you. I believe its morally wrong to stand idly by while people suffer. So, its a question of two lesser evils.



In other words, violence begets violence, peace begets peace.


History would tend to disprove this asertation. I say suffering begets violence and peace at all costs perpetuates suffering.



You accuse me of being idealistic and ivory towerish, but I would say you are being short-sighted.


Of course I am.

This may sound callous, but you sound no better than the structuralists that destroyed the third world in the 50's and 60's under the mistaken belief that you could ignore the problems of the poor until you were in the ideal situation to do so.

That method doesn't work and more often than not leads to more suffering and thus more violence.

Gotta be in class in a little bit. So not as clear as I'd like.

-TheE-[/QUOTE]

[Gan]

This has gone beyond retarded. You're claiming that I"m too black and white and yet you're holding my stance to the very same perspective.

Can I speak for all Iraqi's? Be realistic. No.

I've proven my stance. I stand by it. The actions of the many speak for the many.

Trying to say that I've polled every Iraqi and then have the qualification to judge them cowardice is ludacris. However, as an educated observer, MY OPINION, whether you like it or not, stands as my own.

You can come up with all the retarded analagies you want, my point still stands.

You can rephrase your questions as many times as you want, and I'll respond with the same answer. My point still stands.

Arguing the black and white of what was stated by Dave, and supported by my own posts beyond this point is futile and stupid.

I'm done debating.

[Atlanteax]

I find the killing of a human being, for any reason, to be cowardly and disgusting.-TheE-

So... Police Officers, FBI Agents, ATF Agents, SWAT members, etc... who put their lives on the line for their fellow man in the pursuit of Justice... are all cowards if they shoot and kill someone to save lives?

[DeV]

This has gone beyond retarded.This is usually the end result of being in agreement with a highly generalized assessment based nowhere in fact or reality, made by someone who provided one minor example in a futile attempt to prove said retarded statement.

In fact, his example can just as easily be applied to the description of many low income areas in most major cities in this country where violence is prevalent due to gangs, drugs, socioeconomics, and so on.

At least you provided some examples and somewhat of a basis for your opinion. I'll give you that.

[StrayRogue]

Yes. Blanket labelling of any people generally is a stupid thing, in my book.

[TheEschaton]

Ganalon, for your one Chinese neighbor who made it out of China, how many tried to make it out and didn't?

If you, as a person living in China, found out that 1 in 10 people who tried to leave actually made it without being killed (a rather optimistic estimation, IMO), and you saw that 9 of your 10 neighbors got killed escaping, would you go?

-TheE-

[Gan]

Ganalon, for your one Chinese neighbor who made it out of China, how many tried to make it out and didn't?
No one really knows.



If you, as a person living in China, found out that 1 in 10 people who tried to leave actually made it without being killed (a rather optimistic estimation, IMO), and you saw that 9 of your 10 neighbors got killed escaping, would you go?

-TheE-

Yes, even though you really dont know an actual number of success vs. failure.

[Gan]

At least you provided some examples and somewhat of a basis for your opinion. I'll give you that.

Considering its an actual account (2 actually) of people who actually did what we are talking about, I'd say that it counts for a lot more than those of us who might have even been there, but not done that.

Accuracy can only be reflected on a greater scale if someone on these boards were to have actually escaped from an oppressed situation. Since no one here has stepped up to the plate with that testimony, I'll continue to abide by what I've learned directly, through conversation, from those who have actually done it.

[TheEschaton]

But your sample is skewed horribly because the only ones who can GIVE examples are the ones who survive to tell their stories. The masses who die don't get that opportunity.

-TheE-

[Gan]

In absense of subjective pondering, I'll take my two examples, and the boats of immigrants we see from Cuba, Haiti, and the other countries coming to America as a testimony that it is possible, skewed or not.

[DeV]

Considering its an actual account (2 actually) of people who actually did what we are talking about, I'd say that it counts for a lot more than those of us who might have even been there, but not done that.

Key words have been highlighted.

It doesn't account for why the other thousand that may not have the resources to escape would be labeled cowards. That's the point, Ganalon.

[DeV]

HaitiAlso take into account how futile their efforts are in the grand scheme of things especially in direct relation to access and/or lack of welcomed acceptance to the US.

[Gan]

Sorry, I dont believe in excuses for inaction. If you dont have the resources, you make them, you get them. You do not accept defeat. I do not accept defeat or inaction. I simply dont. Nothing is impossible. It may take time, or patience, but regardless it takes ACTION to put those efforts in motion.

You're talking in absolutes and still missing my definition of cowardice. Cowardice is doing nothing to ilicit change. I've said it before, I'll repeat it now.

Cowardice is doing nothing to make a change.

Why cant you understand that?

Having patience and collecting resources to make an escape, is doing something.

Helping others escape is doing something.

Supporting a movement that is about making a change, is doing something.

Laying plans, planning an escape route, doing research in watching others try to escape and modifying your plans on success or failure, is doing something.

Doing nothing is accepting the status quo, and continuing to subject yourself and your family (if you have one) to the wrong doings of an oppressive government IS DOING NOTHING. And that, by my definition, in my opinion, is cowardice.

Its not revising my earlier statements, its been my definition all along. I cant state it any simpler.

[Gan]

Also take into account how futile their efforts are in the grand scheme of things especially in direct relation to access and/or lack of welcomed acceptance to the US.

Quit diverging from the point. THE KEY IS THEY TRIED!!!

[HarmNone]

So no, I refuse to believe that every circumstance of oppression prohibits one from escaping. Yes it makes it harder in some circumstances, but not impossible.

I, too, refuse to believe that EVERY circumstance of oppression prohibits one from escaping, Ganalon. I, personally, know more than two people who would prove this to be true. Unfortunately, I also know, have seen, and have lived in areas with people for whom this would have been impossible.

As long as we're using terms like EVERY and ALL, we can ensure that we will gain nothing by conversing further.

[DeV]

Sorry, I dont believe in excuses for inaction.Ok. Next time you fail to act on something be sure to apply the same standards to yourself.

[Gan]

I do, every day.

Thanks.

[DeV]

Quit diverging from the point. THE KEY IS THEY TRIED!!!Yes, they tried. No one is saying this is a bad thing. It is very very good.

That is not your main point however. Quit diverging from that.

[Gan]

Yes, they tried. No one is saying this is a bad thing. It is very very good.

That is not your main point however. Quit diverging from that.

My main point, my dim witted friend. Is that they took action, ergo, by my definition they are not cowardice. By the definition I applied to the Iraqi people who are accepeting status quo, without attempting to take any action for change, is cowardice.

No where in my main point, or the point of the debate are we talking about whether or not the US government sent immigrants back. That, Dev, is where you are diverging from the point. Please try and focus.

[DeV]

I do, every day.

Thanks.
Then I have no qualms about the pot calling the kettle black.

I guess in your mind we are all cowards at one point or another for failing to take action when we feel oppressed. Interesting.

[Gan]

Truth hurts.

[DeV]

My main point, my dim witted friend. Is that they took action, ergo, by my definition they are not cowardice. By the definition I applied to the Iraqi people who are accepeting status quo, without attempting to take any action for change, is cowardice.

No where in my main point, or the point of the debate are we talking about whether or not the US government sent immigrants back. That, Dev, is where you are diverging from the point. Please try and focus.Ok, my fellow poster, who is apparently more dim-witted than even I.

No, that was me bringing up a point I'd already touched on earlier in the debate. Haiti, specifically, I went there first. I have no problem comprehending what you've said thus far regarding inaction equaling cowardice as it relates to the Iraqi people.

Dave's argument, which you agreed with, is the focus of my disagreement with your position. The glaring generalization made at the onset is the primary reason I believe your argument lacks luster.

Entirely focused. In fact, perhaps you should focus on the part of your previous post when you said you were done debating this issue.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

No one really knows.



Yes, even though you really dont know an actual number of success vs. failure.

And if you went anyway with 9 children and a sick grandmother knowing full well that their chances were worse than yours, I'd say you were a selfish bastard and a coward for running from your situation rather than staying and protecting your children and sick grandmother from death.

IMO everyone who disagrees with their country and does as little as possible to help their country continue be despotic does not qualify as a "coward."

The mother or father who stays in the despotic country even though *THEY INDIVIDUALLY* can cross for safety, for the sake of their children and family, are not "cowards".

Your generalization IS too black and white Ganalon, your blanket term was not correct (as most blanket terms aren't) and if you'd revise it, I'm sure you'd get more agreement

[HarmNone]

Have you ever been out of the United States, Ganalon? If so, have you ever spent any time in a developing country; particularly, one in the Middle East? Do you know anything about these countries, or their people, that you have not read, or seen, in the Western media?

[Gan]

Ok, my fellow poster, who is apparently more dim-witted than even I.

No, that was me bringing up a point I'd already touched on earlier in the debate. Haiti, specifically, I went there first. I have no problem comprehending what you've said thus far regarding inaction equaling cowardice as it relates to the Iraqi people.

Dave's argument, which you agreed with, is the focus of my disagreement with your position. The glaring generalization made at the onset is the primary reason I believe your argument lacks luster.

Entirely focused. In fact, perhaps you should focus on the part of your previous post when you said you were done debating this issue.

Yea, I'm just stuck responding to idiocy.

[Gan]

Have you ever been out of the United States, Ganalon? If so, have you ever spent any time in a developing country; particularly, one in the Middle East? Do you know anything about these countries, or their people, that you have not read, or seen, in the Western media?

Nope. I just have the two people I've mentioned in my previous post.

Please dont take the army stance... U R NOT ARMY, U DONT NO WHATS HAPPENING....

I have two very credible sources of information, who have done exactly what we are in part discussing. They escaped. Thats all I have to go by.

Until someone else, who can directly source a first hand account of why escaping is not bad, or who has lived under said oppression and chose not to escape, or take action, or do anything about it... then I'll have a hard time believing it otherwise.

[StrayRogue]

Until someone else, who can directly source a first hand account of why escaping is not bad, or who has lived under said oppression and chose not to escape, or take action, or do anything about it... then I'll have a hard time believing it otherwise.


Um HarmNone already said she has.

But I'll say again, blanket statements are generally ignorantly made.

[Daniel]

lol.

You were an economics major?

[DeV]

Yea, I'm just stuck responding to idiocy. As far as this argument is concerned, you're just stuck on stupid, imo. The only idiocy I've seen resides in your counterfeit argument. Nice try though.

[Back]

Kind of reminds me of this administration and they way they vehemently back their reasoning for going to war in Iraq when its obvious it was a mistake.

[Daniel]

Idiocy?

Lets see: Your two personal examples of people from two distinctly different cultures and environments vs the hundreds of thousands of people who were killed doing exactly what you suggested and the hundreds of thousands who are\were refugees because they did what you suggested.


Hmmm...That sounds about right...

[Gan]

And if you went anyway with 9 children and a sick grandmother knowing full well that their chances were worse than yours, I'd say you were a selfish bastard and a coward for running from your situation rather than staying and protecting your children and sick grandmother from death.
Please stop with the stupid analagys. No where have I endorsed leaving your family. In fact, I've mentioned otherwise if you had bothered to read. Since you have not, its just stupid to continue to respond to you.



IMO everyone who disagrees with their country and does as little as possible to help their country continue be despotic does not qualify as a "coward." Good for you, and your opinion. Although I take issue with 'little' action vs. no action, I support the intent behind your opinion.



The mother or father who stays in the despotic country even though *THEY INDIVIDUALLY* can cross for safety, for the sake of their children and family, are not "cowards". If they take NO action to get their famly/children to a safer environment, then IMO they are. Feel free to disagree.



Your generalization IS too black and white Ganalon, your blanket term was not correct (as most blanket terms aren't) and if you'd revise it, I'm sure you'd get more agreement The only critique I have with my opinion that I supported Dave's assessment, which is that without knowing what each and every individual is thinking or is doing to take ACTION against such an oppressive government, we have to rely upon what is seen in a general sense. And what I've seen in a general sense, through different media sources, again because I'm not actually there - LIKE THE MAJORITY OF THE REST OF US (discounting Dave, Daniel) I have to rely on what is read/seen in various sources of media. What I saw was a country which continued to let their despotic ruler run roughshod over basic human freedoms of the people of Iraq. Ergo, thats where my opinion lies.

Again, its my opinion folks. Deal with it. You're not going to change it. I really dont care if you subscribe to it or not.

I would say that I am again done arguing, but I keep getting responses asking questions directly to me. So I continue to post, beat my head against the wall, etc.

Let the journey continue!

[Skirmisher]

Okay, lets cut out the insults.

If people cannot debate an issue without a constant stream of nasty personal comments being attached then they need to sit back and take a break from posting for a few moments or things will start being edited.

We can debate the idea without resorting to such things.

Please.

[Gan]

Idiocy?

Lets see: Your two personal examples of people from two distinctly different cultures and environments vs the hundreds of thousands of people who were killed doing exactly what you suggested and the hundreds of thousands who are\were refugees because they did what you suggested.


Hmmm...That sounds about right...

Can you accurately prove that there were hundreds of thousands of people killed escaping? I've yet to see that documented, and thats where you're blending two distinct arguments into one.

Or are you referring to the hundres of thousands of people who actually took Action, and died because of it? If you're referring to this group, are you saying that the best case would have been inaction? If so, then why are you there?

[Gan]

As far as this argument is concerned, you're just stuck on stupid, imo. The only idiocy I've seen resides in your counterfeit argument. Nice try though.

Once again, you're wrong.

[HarmNone]

When I left Iran with my parents, the plane we took out was piloted by a very brave, young Bahraini. The army had moved in and it appeared they didn't wish us to leave. It was dark, and they shut down all the lights on the landing/takeoff field. The Bahraini pilot let out a bellow and said, in English: "Bullshit! We're taking off!". He took that plane out of there, with us on it, without any lights on the runway. I'll never forget his face, or his voice, or his bravery.

Behind us, in the airport building we left the Iranians who had helped us load baggage, and get passengers onto the airplane. They couldn't leave. They were surrounded by desert on one side, and the Persian Gulf on the other. All ways out were heavily guarded and anyone trying to leave was summarily shot. By that time, the use of rubber bullets was over. It was the equivalent of "gang rule". I'll remember those Iranians, as well. I have no doubt they're dead by now, having helped us escape. Their families may well be dead, as well. I don't know. I left them behind.

These are not thoughts I enjoy. These are not memories I treasure, other than to remember with gratitude those who risked their lives to help us.

Yes, Ganalon, there is a side to things that you do not know. There are circumstances extant in the world that you cannot imagine, having grown up here in our world and never known another. I cannot convince you of this, nor do I care to try.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Nope. I just have the two people I've mentioned in my previous post.

Please dont take the army stance... U R NOT ARMY, U DONT NO WHATS HAPPENING....

I have two very credible sources of information, who have done exactly what we are in part discussing. They escaped. Thats all I have to go by.

Until someone else, who can directly source a first hand account of why escaping is not bad, or who has lived under said oppression and chose not to escape, or take action, or do anything about it... then I'll have a hard time believing it otherwise.

Are you even *reading* our very real examples that people must be faced with? Or are your whole two examples of successful escapes all that you're basing your stupid statement on?

Really, it doesn't take a direct source of information to look at a country like, say, Afghanistan during Taliban rule and know that women could not leave their homes without a male escort or papers. A widowed mother of three girls isn't going to get the fuck out of dodge. If you think she should try to walk from the center of Afghanistan to the border without enough food, or money, and get herself and her children shot, then you're fucking nuts.

Plus, demanding a real life example is pretty stupid anyway. "Oh yeah, I can give you example. This neighbor I never had was trying to escape North Korea, but she was found and shot, and then they went back to her village and killed her family and ten random people from the village. She told me this, you know. First hand."

You don't need a hard, name and date example to prove a point, or disprove a point. You need logic and facts and somewhat non-retarded deductive reasoning.

[Gan]

lol.

You were an economics major?

I have my diploma hanging on the wall, and can back up the education. Are you insulting my education now? Is that somehow going to lessen the fact that you cant get around my argument?

[Daniel]

Can you accurately prove that there were hundreds of thousands of people killed escaping? I've yet to see that documented, and thats where you're blending two distinct arguments into one.


Yes.

It's a well documented fact. Reference the Human Rights Watch article I posted earlier.


I think I've rather adequately explained why I *was* there. I don't think we need to re-hash that argument and I doubt you're prepared to take up the counter argument.

[Daniel]

I have my diploma hanging on the wall, and can back up the education. Are you insulting my education now? Is that somehow going to lessen the fact that you cant get around my argument?

I'm just wondering how bad of a stroke any one of your economics teachers would have had if they knew you were making sweeping general observations about a population based upon two irrelevant examples.

You can call that an insult if you wish.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Can you accurately prove that there were hundreds of thousands of people killed escaping? I've yet to see that documented, and thats where you're blending two distinct arguments into one.

Or are you referring to the hundres of thousands of people who actually took Action, and died because of it? If you're referring to this group, are you saying that the best case would have been inaction? If so, then why are you there?

Watch some documentaries on north korea-- with the hidden cameras and what not smuggled in. Watch the executions they did in a village near the border on a regular basis. Not only did they kill the person, they'd mow down the entire family.

But no Ganalon, you're totally right. They're cowards.

[Gan]

When I left Iran with my parents, the plane we took out was piloted by a very brave, young Bahraini. The army had moved in and it appeared they didn't wish us to leave. It was dark, and they shut down all the lights on the landing/takeoff field. The Bahraini pilot let out a bellow and said, in English: "Bullshit! We're taking off!". He took that plane out of there, with us on it, without any lights on the runway. I'll never forget his face, or his voice, or his bravery.

Behind us, in the airport building we left the Iranians who had helped us load baggage, and get passengers onto the airplane. They couldn't leave. They were surrounded by desert on one side, and the Persian Gulf on the other. All ways out were heavily guarded and anyone trying to leave was summarily shot. By that time, the use of rubber bullets was over. It was the equivalent of "gang rule". I'll remember those Iranians, as well. I have no doubt they're dead by now, having helped us escape. Their families may well be dead, as well. I don't know. I left them behind.

These are not thoughts I enjoy. These are not memories I treasure, other than to remember with gratitude those who risked their lives to help us.

Yes, Ganalon, there is a side to things that you do not know. There are circumstances extant in the world that you cannot imagine, having grown up here in our world and never known another. I cannot convince you of this, nor do I care to try.

Cant you see that what you described is the very non-cowardice that I'm describing? These people took action, they defied the oppressors.

Thank you for further establishing my point.

[Gan]

I'm just wondering how bad of a stroke any one of your economics teachers would have had if they knew you were making sweeping general observations about a population based upon two irrelevant examples.

You can call that an insult if you wish.

Lets see your data then. Lets see your samples of the population and standard deviation of samples thrown out.

I'm basing this on what I've seen, read, and have been given first hand accountings of.

What do you have?

[HarmNone]

Cant you see that what you described is the very non-cowardice that I'm describing? These people took action, they defied the oppressors.

Thank you for further establishing my point.

They couldn't get out themselves, Ganalon. They couldn't get their families out. They helped us. Some didn't, because they couldn't come to help. They couldn't leave their houses for fear of their families being slaughtered. You simply will not see that everything isn't as you believe it to be. That's your choice.

[StrayRogue]

I'm basing this on what I've seen, read, and have been given first hand accountings of.



When have you seen these acts of oppression and rebellion?

[Gan]

Watch some documentaries on north korea-- with the hidden cameras and what not smuggled in. Watch the executions they did in a village near the border on a regular basis. Not only did they kill the person, they'd mow down the entire family.

But no Ganalon, you're totally right. They're cowards.

It seems that the word cowardice hits a nerve with you. Please dont confuse your real world issues with what we are discussing here.

We are discussing MY definition of cowardice. Of which I've given you, time and time again, what IN MY OPINION that definition is. Furthermore I have accepted the fact that I agree with Dave's post. GET OVER IT.

[Gan]

When have you seen these acts of oppression and rebellion?

Do you ever watch the evening news? Documentaries on TV? Read the papers?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Cant you see that what you described is the very non-cowardice that I'm describing? These people took action, they defied the oppressors.

Thank you for further establishing my point.

She *wasn't* proving your point. She was showing that even though a few (like herself) can get out, a majority can't (like the people at the airport). And to do anything that doesn't fall in line means pretty much that you will die. She's saying that running isn't an option for anyone, and that if you do something against the country and can't run, you die. Your options you've given are just that for not being a coward: Run, or Die.

[Gan]

They couldn't get out themselves, Ganalon. They couldn't get their families out. They helped us. Some didn't, because they couldn't come to help. They couldn't leave their houses for fear of their families being slaughtered. You simply will not see that everything isn't as you believe it to be. That's your choice.

And yet I'm being chastised because you and others think I'm calling them cowards. When by my very definition I'm not.

How difficult is that to see?

[HarmNone]

I should probably add that those who came to help us were mostly young people without families to protect. I can only imagine their mothers sitting at home wondering where their sons were. When I do, the tears come again. I think I'm through with this.

[Gan]

She *wasn't* proving your point. She was showing that even though a few (like herself) can get out, a majority can't (like the people at the airport). And to do anything that doesn't fall in line means pretty much that you will die. She's saying that running isn't an option for anyone, and that if you do something against the country and can't run, you die. Your options you've given are just that for not being a coward: Run, or Die.

Sorry, I dont subscribe to only have one option to escape, that or die. There are many options. Some take time to plan and to come to fruition, some dont. A lot depends on the resources made available to you.

That still does not contradict why I support Dave's assertion or my definition of cowardice.

[Daniel]

What do you have?

^

I much better first hand account. I.e. personal relationships with people who have escaped but had family who couldn't, personal contact with poeple still remaining and everything else.

Of course you won't listen to this because of the U r army argument, or some other bullshit, which essentially means that any experiences that does not fit within your mold are summarily discarded and discredited by default.

You can go read the UN, HRW, AI or any other reports you want detailing the status of refugees and political prisoners under Saddam Hussein, but you don't.

The only reason being that it defies your ignorant and ill informed opinion, and yet somehow the rest of us are being idiotic?

Please. You have jack shit.

[HarmNone]

Thank you, Daniel! Thank you again and again.

[StrayRogue]

Oh and one such example of where escapees (again, a "cowardly act" that you don't seem to be picking up on) have been captured, tortured and killed is the conflict that happened in Liberia in 1989.

[Gan]

Please. You have jack shit.

I've given 2 very specific examples. You've yet to give any stating otherwise.

I think we know who's got what and who doesnt.

Thanks though.

[Daniel]

And yet I'm being chastised because you and others think I'm calling them cowards. When by my very definition I'm not.

How difficult is that to see?

By your defintion, they would have "Picked up their two feet and left" and if they didn't thus didn't try and are thus cowards.

You pretty much said that when you said "Bullshit, or else we would not have had to remove Saddam for them"

You are the one that aid "You aren't buying that argument", that argument being that people did something and still fell short.

You keep running yourself in circles to dig a hole. You really should have stopped a long time ago.

[DeV]

Once again, you're wrong.Once again, you're still stuck and still replying. In fact, your inability to admit just how wrong you are appears as cowardice.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. In this case, I'm not.

As you stated previously, your argument is based purely on your opinion and two people you talked to who escaped a volatile situation. Congrats, you were learned, but there is always another side to a situation and instead of comphrending that you choose to disregard it and attribute any and all inaction to cowardice. Great argument.

Things to note:

Opinion does not always equal fact.
Your opinion, which you are entitled to, and which I fully comprehend, does not support your far-fetched generalized view of inaction and cowardice in the face of oppression.

I do not wish to change your mind. You have the ability to comprehend the fact that your argument is flawed even though you choose to believe otherwise.




Yes, Ganalon, there is a side to things that you do not know. He knows all. He is TheGanalon.

[StrayRogue]

Do you ever watch the evening news? Documentaries on TV? Read the papers?

I know there is a difference between sitting in a warm room watching a news programme that has been edited, and a news paper that has been carefully written than the reality of life outside my country.

[Gan]

Oh and one such example of where escapees (again, a "cowardly act" that you don't seem to be picking up on) have been captured, tortured and killed is the conflict that happened in Liberia in 1989.

LOL

I dont define escaping as cowardly. Where did you get that notion?