Horribly sad

[Skirmisher]

This story leaves me stunned and saddened and wondering just how insane someone has to be do something like this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060925/ap_on_re_us/woman_slain;_ylt=Avu4A90vsR1cnSMua9.Tfnis0NUE;_ylu =X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-

Coroner: Suspect says she drowned kids

By JIM SUHR, Associated Press Writer 17 minutes ago

A woman accused of killing a pregnant woman and her fetus told police she drowned the woman's three young children and stuffed them into a washer and dryer at their apartment, an official said Sunday.

Preliminary autopsies on the dead children Sunday appear to show they were drowned, Ace Hart, a deputy St. Clair County coroner, told The Associated Press.

As of Sunday, Tiffany Hall, 24, had not been charged in the children's deaths, but prosecutors on Saturday accused Hall of killing their mother, Jimella Tunstall, 23, and her fetus. The fetus had been cut from her womb, authorities said.

According to Sunday's autopsies, there were no signs of physical abuse or trauma on the children — ages 7, 2, and 1 — and toxicology tests were pending "to see if they were poisoned or possibly drugged," Hart said.

"They were not drowned there in the wash machine," Hart stressed.

On Sunday, the community turned to prayer to understand the slayings at a service for the slain family.

"This is an opportunity for people to turn to God," said Debra Kenton, a member of the New Life Community Church. "Who else can explain things like this?"

Authorities suspect Tunstall was slain on or about Sept. 15.

That day, Hall summoned police to a park, saying she had given birth to a stillborn child, Hart said. She was arrested after she told her boyfriend during the baby's funeral that the baby wasn't his and that she had killed the mother to get it, authorities said.

Tunstall's body was found Thursday, and authorities began a furious search for her children. Police said the children were last seen with the Hall on Monday.

Authorities had visited Tunstall's apartment Friday but noticed nothing amiss while looking for photographs of the children for media outlets to publicize in their search, Hart said.

While in custody, Hart says, Hall told investigators she killed the children at another location, then hauled them home and hid them in the washer and dryer.

Hall said he understood why investigators may have overlooked the children during their previous trip to the apartment. "Who would be looking in the washer and dryer?"

By Saturday night, Hart said, "you could find them by the smell."

The oldest, 7-year-old DeMond Tunstall, was found in the dryer and the younger two children — 2-year-old Ivan Tunstall-Collins and 1-year-old Jinela Tunstall — in the washer. Two of the children were found nude, the third wearing only underpants, Hart said.

Hall remained jailed Sunday on $5 million bond, charged with first-degree murder in Tunstall's death and with intentional homicide of an unborn child.

Meanwhile, stuffed animals continued to mount outside Tunstall's apartment, its door crisscrossed with white evidence tape. There was a white teddy bear, and a stuffed race car with DeMond's name.

An autopsy showed that Jimella Tunstall bled to death after sustaining an abdominal wound caused by a sharp object, believed to be scissors, Hart has said. Authorities believe her womb was cut open after she was knocked unconscious.

Relatives say Tunstall grew up with Hall and had let her baby-sit her children. Hall has two children of her own. Illinois State Police Capt. Craig Koehler said they are "safe and sound."

Hall likely will be arraigned Monday on the two charges, each carrying a 20 to 60 years or life in prison, prosecutors said. The murder count could be punishable by the death penalty.

DNA tests should determine definitively whether the baby was the one Tunstall was carrying, Hart said.

___

Associated Press reporter Christopher Leonard contributed to this report.

[Sean of the Thread]

Yep some sick shit to be sure.

[DCSL]

Wow, that is so, so terrible. It sounds like something out of a horror book. That poor family.

[Asha]

The states a persons mind can take are shocking. That was a horrible thing to read.

[The Ponzzz]

Yea, shit like this makes me wanna puke.

[Miss X]

Jesus, how is it possible to be that sick?

[Jolena]

Yah..but its worse than that. Not only did the woman cut out the fetus of her childhood friend's womb while the poor woman was still alive, but she also called 911 just a few hours afterwards, and told them that she (the murderer) had went into early labor and had a stillborn baby (her friend's baby). She was taken to the hospital, along with the poor stillborn fetus she just mercilessly cut out of her friend's belly, and told the police that it was her own, and that she had been raped (though she is claimed to have also said she had consentual sex) and that's what triggered her premature labor.

It gets worse. (hard to believe eh?) 3 days later she has a funeral for the baby, with her family and her boyfriend (who came home from military duty to attend the funeral), and at the funeral she tells the boyfriend that its not his child and she had murdered the true mother. Of course, he calls the police and she's arrested just hours later. And guess what? She NAMED the dead baby. Gave it her last name, etc.

[HarmNone]

As I read it, the woman she killed was her cousing, for whose children she often babysat. It's hard to imagine the kind of mind-set that would do such a thing. In fact, I don't think I really want to understand it.

[Ilvane]

There are some really sick people in this world.

I wonder what was going on in her mind, that she snapped like that.

Awful, just plain awful.

Angela

[Tromp]

Hug your kids and tell them you love them.

She deserves to be sent to Iraq as a road side bomb inspector like all other mass murdering wackos.

[Wezas]

Very sad story.

[09:49] Dougl: what's wrong with me, when i read that "horrible thing" post by Skirm, one of the first things to mind was abortion laws being in jeopardy if the fetus is treated like a baby

[thornhappy]

Repulsive. :(

[Stanley Burrell]

Repulsive. :(

And a viable insanity plea.

[Jolena]

Very sad story.

[09:49] Dougl: what's wrong with me, when i read that "horrible thing" post by Skirm, one of the first things to mind was abortion laws being in jeopardy if the fetus is treated like a baby

The fetus was 7 months into gestation and could have been born and survived in a NICU with some help. Many many children are born earlier in gestation than that particular fetus, and treating it as a baby in my opinion would be very much viable.

That being said, I read that the original charges on the suspect in custody (Hall) are 2 counts of murder - one for the woman and one for the baby which they are labeling intentional manslaughter of an unborn child.

[Wezas]

Oh, I knew the age of the fetus, etc.

It's just still something that popped into my mind. That if the child wasn't as far along that it would be a political battle.

[Latrinsorm]

In fact, I don't think I really want to understand it.How can you not want to prevent it from happening again?

[DeV]

Since when was it ever possible to prevent a crime of passion or a crime of your run of the mill crazy ass mentally unstable but functioning individual from happening simply by understanding why they did it?

[Latrinsorm]

Since when have we understood the causes of those things in any meaningful sense?

[Skirmisher]

Yes Latrinsorm, unless you want to live on the world from the Minority Report or some such there will always be the aberrations.

[HarmNone]

How can you not want to prevent it from happening again?


That is, without doubt, one of the dumbest questions you've ever asked.

How, pray tell, will my (or any sane person's) endeavoring to understand that which is so aberrant as to be totally beyond my comprehension, prevent said event from happening again?

[Atlanteax]

How can you not want to prevent it from happening again?That is, without doubt, one of the dumbest questions you've ever asked.

How, pray tell, will my (or any sane person's) endeavoring to understand that which is so aberrant as to be totally beyond my comprehension, prevent said event from happening again?

Excellent example of the "coddling" syndrome where too many depraved criminals are instead sent to psych wards to "comfortably" live out their life sentenances (or paroled once "treated") as opposed to jus simply putting them to the electric chair.

[Latrinsorm]

How, pray tell, will my (or any sane person's) endeavoring to understand that which is so aberrant as to be totally beyond my comprehension, prevent said event from happening again?Science seems to work well enough in every other part of the universe, why would we abandon it when the results are so much more horrible?
Yes Latrinsorm, unless you want to live on the world from the Minority Report or some such there will always be the aberrations.I'd say it's better to try and fail then just plain give up, wouldn't you? If we only have a .01% chance at preventing this from happening again, isn't it worth it to try?

[Ilvane]

Oh my god, I agree with Latrin.

You do want to understand why, and what went so wrong with this person that they would do something like this. I'm not saying coddle her and not give her punishment, I'm saying find out why, and try to treat her.

Wouldn't you think that someone who did something like this was mentally unbalanced?

[Atlanteax]

Oh my god, I agree with Latrin.

You do want to understand why, and what went so wrong with this person that they would do something like this. I'm not saying coddle her and not give her punishment, I'm saying find out why, and try to treat her.

Wouldn't you think that someone who did something like this was mentally unbalanced?


Here's my hunch...

I do not believe that this individual was mentally unbalanced in the sense of insanity.

I believe it was pre-mediated murder, and that she just simply has too much evil inside her.

Here's my thought that the background story is...

Crazy/Evil lady and boyfriend (who is away on military) are having relationship issues where she feels insecure about his commitment to her. She thinks that if she has a child by him, she will be able to "keep" him (this sort of thing is far too frequent).

Her cousin/friend who is pregnant provides the most viable target of opportunity. (Easy to get to, etc). Additionally, the baby/fetus will be very young, allowing her the opportunity to stress to BF that she was impreganated by him prior to his lengthly absence.

She attacks her cousin/friend and cuts out the fetus. Cousin/friend's children are in the home (or godforbid, in the same room) when this occurs, and to cover-up her crime, she drowns the two so they cannot tell the tale. (this is good example of how a pre-mediated crime can escalate into a sequence of great evilness).

Fetus/baby dies (obviously as a result of the trauma involved), and so she under great emotional/mental stress (and seeking someone to share her pain with), admits the tale to the bf at the funeral.

Fortunately for society, the bf reports it to the police.

.

So assuming the above is how it played out or is very similiar to how it did... this person does not belong in the psych ward and needs to be executed.

[DeV]

Deviant criminal behavior is already a constant subject of study and has been for eons.

With that in mind please elaborate on how knowing her mindset, reasoning, mental capacity, and what she was feeling at the time she committed these gruesome murders could have prevented this scenario from playing out in the first place. I'm curious.

[CrystalTears]

Someone get the pre-cogs hooked up and let's minority report these bitches! :D

[Merzbow]

"This is an opportunity for people to turn to God," said Debra Kenton, a member of the New Life Community Church. "Who else can explain things like this?"


So God lets four children be killed and we should turn to him? Ahh, the delusions of the religious...

[FinallyDomesticated]

I don't think she snapped or is mentally unbalanced. I think she is selfish and immoral. She went to too many lengths to cover and lie about what she did. Therefore, she knew it was wrong.

This is one of those situations where, as a Christian, I should pray for her and come to terms with the whole idea that it is not our place to judge what He will judge when the time comes. However, I can't bring myself to that mindset. I hope that every moment for the rest of her life that she ever feels peacefulness or happiness - that she is haunted by the faces of those children and images of their mother which she sliced open.

The older I get, the more it just ticks me off that people like this are treated the way they are. There is entirely too much time, energy and money spent on bringing them to some justice which will never ever be enough justice to make up for what they did. Do we need to study these people? No. We need to study better ways to serve justice to make it extremely clear that this sort of behavior is not acceptable here. There are too many ways to get off the hook and too many people that know that and are more than happy to take advantage of it.

[Latrinsorm]

With that in mind please elaborate on how knowing her mindset, reasoning, mental capacity, and what she was feeling at the time she committed these gruesome murders could have prevented this scenario from playing out in the first place. I'm curious.The more we know how something works, the more we can predict it. The more people who say "just kill her" or "I don't want to know about this", the fewer people we have working to fix this problem. I don't know if we'll ever be able to get to 100% predictability (and that's more of a philosophical question anyway), but if we can stop even 1/10th of these events before they happen, rationally we'd have to agree that undergoing a psychological examination should be as routine as a physical.

To the people who want a swift execution (Atlanteax comes to mind), do you think doing so will a) undo her grisly crimes or b) prevent similar crimes from happening again? If not, why would you want it?

[DeV]

psychological examination should be as routine as a physical.

What immediately comes to mind is how people like you or I would fare on such an examination. We may as well convert all the prisons in the country into psych wards because the truth remains, you cannot punish a person for being mentally unstable.

There are serial killers in past and present that would pass a psychological examination of any kind with flying colors. They are considered pathological of the highest degree and could talk their way out of or into a paper bag if and when given the opportunity. What your're suggesting is far-fetched. Like, way.

In theory it sounds great and sort of crazy all at once. In reality, um, I really don't see it happening or feesible.

[Latrinsorm]

There are serial killers in past and present that would pass a psychological examination of any kind with flying colors.If psychology was a complete science, I wouldn't be so upset, now would I? The whole point is that we don't know enough yet.

[Sean of the Thread]

You guys can fight over anything.

[DeV]

If psychology was a complete science, I wouldn't be so upset, now would I? The whole point is that we don't know enough yet.
And it will never be a complete science, Latrin.

Regarding your mandatory psychological exam, it's an interesting idea in theory, but not viable in any way shape or form.

Rest assured she will be psychologically evaluated more than once before she even gets to trial. She'll have her day in court. Knowing why is only half the battle and definitely not something that would negate another sicko from doing the same tomorrow or the next day.

[Goretawn]

To the people who want a swift execution (Atlanteax comes to mind), do you think doing so will a) undo her grisly crimes or b) prevent similar crimes from happening again? If not, why would you want it?

One: I would want it because of the growing costs to maintain a person for 60+ years in a jail cell where she gets cable, 3 meals a day, air conditioning, free schooling, free medical....

B:I don't know about you, but I would rather pay for a few volts of electicity then a country club for some bitch that would murder her friend/cousin and 4 innocent children.

III: I agree that we all need to go home and hug our children, wives, husband, whom ever you love.

4: Turn the bitch into a piece of charcoal. :flames:

[Jolena]

To the people who want a swift execution (Atlanteax comes to mind), do you think doing so will a) undo her grisly crimes or b) prevent similar crimes from happening again? If not, why would you want it?

a) No, definitely not.

b) It would not prevent others from doing so, but it would surely remove this woman from society, thereby eliminating her ability to do another horrible thing to someone else.

[Latrinsorm]

Even assuming that we should base this decision on purely financial terms, executions and the capital punishment system itself aren't generally cheap. It's hard to trust any information we find on this sort of thing, but the fact that people are at least making the claim that capital punishment is as or more expensive than life in prison suggests that it's not as clearcut as "prison = expensive, death penalty = cheap".

Another assumption you appear to have made that I disagree with is that there's no possibility of rehabilitation here. Five people have already died, and nothing we do can change that. We can at least try to fix this one.
And it will never be a complete science, Latrin.Not complete, maybe, but it can certainly get a better than it is now, and I don't see any reason to believe that we'll never reach the level of psychological knowledge that would make these screenings worthwhile. Even if there is, we'll never know if we don't try, and how can we say we care about horrible crimes like this if we don't take steps that could conceivably prevent them?
Knowing why is only half the battle and definitely not something that would negate another sicko from doing the same tomorrow or the next day.Coming from a physics background, I know that's not the case in physical systems. Clearly psychology isn't as far along as physics, and physics isn't a perfect science either, but it's hard to believe you hold the idea that humans are wholly autonomous beings, completely unpredictable by science.

[Jolena]

Another assumption you appear to have made that I disagree with is that there's no possibility of rehabilitation here. Five people have already died, and nothing we do can change that. We can at least try to fix this one.

You are absolutely right, I do not believe that this woman is able to be rehabilitated, nor do I wish to spend the tax money to do so. Call that what you will.

[thornhappy]

I'm not philanthropic. There's no reason we should be paying to keep sick bastards/bitches like that alive, especially when they might have the opportunity to reproduce and further pollute our gene pool.

No thanks. Fry her.

[DeV]

but it's hard to believe you hold the idea that humans are wholly autonomous beings, completely unpredictable by science. Probably because I don't believe that for a second.

If you believe that unpredictable criminal behavior can be prevented by mandatory psychological examinations by all means do. Furthermore why stop at psych exams?

You fail to address the fact that people like her are already studied daily.

[Skirmisher]

Hrm, I was afraid this might turn into a capitol punishment thread....should have put a disclaimer.

[HarmNone]

Excellent example of the "coddling" syndrome where too many depraved criminals are instead sent to psych wards to "comfortably" live out their life sentenances (or paroled once "treated") as opposed to jus simply putting them to the electric chair.

Excuse me? Where did I say this woman should be sent to a psych ward? I don't believe this person to be mentally ill in the full sense of the word; at least, not at this point. I believe this person probably has a personality disorder. She knows full well what she's doing is hideous. She just doesn't care enough not to do it.

Don't presume to put words in my mouth, and don't presume I mean other than what I say. Thx.

Edited to add that you may have been addressing Latrinsorm's comment, in which case ignore what I just said. :D )

[HarmNone]

Science seems to work well enough in every other part of the universe, why would we abandon it when the results are so much more horrible?I'd say it's better to try and fail then just plain give up, wouldn't you? If we only have a .01% chance at preventing this from happening again, isn't it worth it to try?

No. A great deal of study has, and is, going on with regard to personality disorders (specifically, in this case, antisocial personality, or what was once known as psychopathy or sociopathy). So far, there has been no indication that more knowledge produces any change in these peoples' behavior. They still have no conscience and no method for conscience transplant has yet been developed. So, while we're studying the phenomenon, and oohing and ahhing over our vast knowledge and pedantic discussion, more people are dying. Again. No.

Study as you wish. Apply science as you wish. Endeavor to apply logic to the illogical, and reason to the unreasonable for as long as you like. The fact remains that people are being murdered by others who have no remorse, and no capacity for remorse. When, and if, an answer is found perhaps we can stop the madness. Until then, what we have are monsters afoot.