Advice on a GS4 Warrior (numbers)

[Latrinsorm]

Hey, thought I'd ask y'all for some advice on rolling up a new Warrior in GS4. I started with a Human and gave him these stats pre-profession bonus:
Con: 59
Str: 50
Dex: 69
Agi: 69
Dis: 50
Aur: 79
Log: 88
Int: 49
Wis: 59
Inf: 68

Then I figured I'd train him as follows:
3x Armor
3x Shield
3x PT
2x Edged
2x CM
.5x Dodge
.5x First Aid
.5x Survival

And later on get a rank in Harness, 8 ranks each of Climb and Swim, and then start on Ambush, Multi-opps, and a little trading. Also, he'd be in CoL, which is why I want another 3 mana. I can't do the First Aid and Survival right away, but I catch up right around 40, I think. No spells, and going for some decent redux. Also I realize I'm undertrained for Dodge.

Anything I'm missing? Anything I've just f'd up?

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Anything I've just f'd up?

yes even though you say you realize it.

you will not be able to hunt with that amount of dodge

[Latrinsorm]

ok.... why? from what I understood, dodge adds to DS and lets you dodge attacks maybe 5% of the time, and is a factor in Manuever attacks.

[StrayRogue]

Sure he can. He will not even need dodge if he is 3x shield. .5x is a waste in my opinion.

[theotherjohn]

I am not going to argue.

I know I am right. I have a 66 train warrior in the test instance.

I played with my numbers and training and then along with a combination of Porcel's and my work decided on a plan.

[Jack]

OHE is weak. I'd drop shield to 1.5x, raise dodge to 1.5x, and pick up two handed weapons as a secondary weapon style. That's just my thoughts though.

-Jack

[StrayRogue]

According to the GMs and documentation, you are wrong. If he is 3x shield, he will be using a tower shield, meaning his Dodging will be impaired massively. Warriors have the benefit of being able to train either or in dodge or shield. They can tank one or the other, or train 2x in both. Besides the way dodging works, even at 3x I am still getting hit a hell of a lot. I'd much rather be 3x shield.

[Latrinsorm]

Ok! Thanks for your suggestions! :grin:

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
According to the GMs and documentation, you are wrong. .

What the hell are you are talking about?

straight off the webpage:

http://www.play.net/gs3/news/gemstone_iv/combat.asp#dodge

DODGE

Dodge is similar to Shields/Blocking: increased skill will improve a character's chance to evade an attack entirely, and if the outright evade fails, the Dodge skill still increases the character's DS.

Training guidelines for Dodge for characters pursuing a One-handed weapon/Shield training path are shown below. Characters that pursue shieldless combat styles will be expected to have more Dodge skill than the typical OH/Shield users:

Profession Training Guideline
Warrior 1.5x
Rogue 2x
Bard/Ranger 0.75x
Pures 0x

The above table shows what would be considered "typical training" for a given profession. Any player is free to train their character as they see fit, but this table provides a basic guideline for what the combat system expects.

[StrayRogue]

YES, now read the shield documentation. Does it say its meant to be 3x? NO. He is over compensating on one area so he can reduce the other. A balanced plan would be 1.5x in each. Instead he is going all out for shield meaning he will not need dodge to as much extent.

Another mind blowingly simple example is a rogue. Base dodge is 2x, when persuing a shield (which I believe 1.5x). Do you think he will need that shield when he up's to 3x dodge? NO. He will not. He will pay the points in tps, but will no longer have to maintain such a high level of shield training. The same applies for any profession.

[Edited on 2-11-03 by StrayRogue]

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
YES, now read the shield documentation. Does it say its meant to be 3x? NO. He is over compensating on one area so he can reduce the other. A balanced plan would be 1.5x in each. Instead he is going all out for shield meaning he will not need dodge to as much extent.

The same applies for any profession.

[Edited on 2-11-03 by StrayRogue]

You have no grasp of the passive defense system in GS4. It is not the same for each profession.

A balanced OHE warrior is not 1.5x.

He is 2x in shield for blocking, 2x in weapon for parry and 1.5x in dodge for evade.

[StrayRogue]

He is 3x shield though. 3X. He will be blocking more than evading. Blocking will be his main defense, where-as your normal, baseline Warrior such as your example, is more balanced between the two.

If you've done any serious testing you will realise that evasion counts for fuck all in combat, and is something never to be relied on. I evade usually when I am in defensive stance, a stance I do not need to evade in. Offensive, as a 2.5x dodging rogue...maybe 1 in 10 hits I will evade.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by StrayRogue

If you've done any serious testing you will realise that evasion counts for fuck all in combat, , as a 2.5x dodging rogue...maybe 1 in 10 hits I will evade.

Have you done any testing at all as a warrior?

[StrayRogue]

Yes, I have. At lvl 18 and lvl 50. He is 3x at shield, which you seem to be forgetting. If you think he has to maintain that level of dodge when he is over-compensating, you are just foolish, or unable to hunt correctly. But please, post the numbers. Prove you evade millions of times in a hunt. I bet you get hit more often than evade. And thats at 1.5x.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by StrayRogueyou are just foolish, or unable to hunt correctly. But please, post the numbers.


I have already provided a link to official information.

Feel free to post your numbers showing you know better than official documentation.

Since you quoted in your post at 712pm that you had GM and documentation for your arguement, provide it or STFU.

[StrayRogue]

Np...

SHIELDS

Shield skill aids in two ways; first, increased skill will improve a character's chance to block an attack entirely. Second, if the outright block fails, the shield skill still increases the character's Defense Strength (DS).

There will be four types of shields in GemStone IV. Shields have various names, but can be broken down into four categories:

Small Shield
Medium (standard) Shield
Large Shield
Tower/Wall Shield

Existing shields will all convert to Medium shields initially. We will be providing a voluntary conversion mechanism that will allow players to convert their shields to one of the other types if the name is appropriate for that type.

Training guidelines for Shield Use (for characters pursuing a One-handed weapon/Shield training path):

Profession Training Guideline
Warrior 2x
Rogue 1.5x
Bard/Ranger 1x
Pures 0.5x

The above table shows what would be considered "typical training" for a given profession. Any player is free to train their character as they see fit, but this table provides a basic guideline for what the combat system expects.

Shield Defense Strength (DS) bonus:

(Shield Ranks + (STR bonus/4) + (DEX Bonus/4))/(1.5) = Base Value

Base Value * Stance Modifier * (100% + Shield Size Modifier) = DS bonus

Shield Size Modifier Table:

Small -20%
Medium 0%
Large 20%
Tower/Wall 40%

Stance Modifier: 50% + Stance/2.

Example: In Stance Guarded (Stance = 80), the Shield DS stance modifier would be 50% + (80/2) = 90%

The odds for an outright Block are based on the defender's Shield Use ranks compared to the attacker's level. It is affected by stats, shield size, and stance.

A character with 1x shield training and a medium shield will block a like-level foe roughly 5% of the time in stance offensive. A character with 3x shield training and all other factors the same would have roughly a 15% chance to block that same attack.

Now dodge:

The odds for an outright dodge are based on the defender's Dodge ranks compared to the attacker's level. It is affected by stats, certain spells, and stance. A character with 1x Dodge training can evade a like-level foe roughly 5% of the time in stance offensive. A character with 3x Dodge training and all other factors the same would have roughly a 15% chance to evade that same attack.

Right. So with 1.5x dodge, you are going to evade roughly 7% of the attacks he gets.

A 3x shield user will outright block 15% WITH A MEDIUM SHIELD. This is increased massively by a tower or large shield up to about 40%.

Now lets look at the DS bonus for each:
40% bonus from a tower shield, something the 3x user will gain maximum benefit from, while only a person's agility (whom this warrior in question has low of) and actual dodge ranks will effect. 1.5x dodge is not much. So it loses out on the DS.

Plus, key in this important info:

Shield Penalty: Using a shield hinders attempts to Dodge. The penalty is 20% for a small shield, 30% for a medium shield, 40% for a large shield, and 50% for a tower shield.

So you are already at a huge penalty to even dodge. Any idea how much dodge ranks it will take to come anywhere near being able to Dodge as effectively as 40% blocking every shot with a tower shield? It will take more than 1.5x, for sure.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't mean to disagree with you StrayRogue (mainly because you implied that my path was correct) but that information has changed. It went to 15% and 30% instead of 20 and 40. On the official boards there's a message about it in the Announcements. Unless they changed it back sometime today. Which would cheese me to no end.

As for Hitler, I personally think that things he was successful in (economics 'n' such) are much easier to sweep under the carpet then genocide. There's always an emotional attachment to genocide. Not so much economics.

[StrayRogue]

30% still provides you more protection (DS) and more blocking than 1.5x Dodge will (using a tower shield) in evading.

[Latrinsorm]

I sure hope so, eh? :D But then again, the worst that happens is I hang out waiting for skills to migrate around, right? Kinda takes the risk/fun/frustration out of training.

[StrayRogue]

Best way to decide really, is to go out there and test it.

[Latrinsorm]

Ok, went out and tested, and i'm a bit confused. I seem to remember that training in a skill twice would cost 3 times the P/M cost, because the second rank cost double. However, it seems that the second rank counts the same as the first. Is this a bug or the way GS4 works?

[Ilvane]

I'm going to go out and test some things today after work. Ilvane is a 31 training warrior, elven..I'm thinking maybe the way shield training looks, the extra training in it is a better way to go than using dodge. (seeing as I use a tower shield.) Hmm. Only thing I wonder about with dodge, while this may seem like a foolish question..would that effect the way you are able to evade the manuver attacks by things like farmhands which cast boil earth, or roater burrowing? I would think a more balanced plan would help with that. I'll have to check it out.:) Seems almost common sense.

-A

[Edited on 11-3-2003 by Ilvane]

[Kadumi]

I know this is a very old thread but...

Plate armor kills the DS benefit to dodging. The shield will be many many times more useful at higher trains.

Boost up your CO and ST stats. That's where your training points are gonna come from. Survival is pretty useless. I didn't find that out till after I had 50 ranks. I'll keep those but I'm not getting any more.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Kadumi
I know this is a very old thread but...

Plate armor kills the DS benefit to dodging. The shield will be many many times more useful at higher trains.



who told you dodge kills the DS benefit in plate?

and what do you consider higher trains?

I am a 72 train warrior and I find dodge very useful

[Bobmuhthol]

Your plan blows goats.

[Bobmuhthol]

Your plan blows goats.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Your plan blows goats. It works great for those who don't sit around TSC.

get a tower/wall and stick with the 3x shield training. I don't really know what CMANs you are intending to train in but you can shield charge things really well with no dodging.

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by theotherjohn
who told you dodge kills the DS benefit in plate?

and what do you consider higher trains?

I am a 72 train warrior and I find dodge very useful

Plate is heavy. Dodge still helps but your DS is significantly lower with plate. Tower shields work the same way. They are heavier so dodging will be less effective and your DS will drop. Your tps will probably be better spent with shield use instead of dodge. This is all based on my own testing around 50 trains.

Don't get rid of dodge, just make shield use the priority. That's what I suggest at any rate.