the enemy is among us

[Amber]

I give up. I can't find the words to express how I feel about this.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343&page=1


Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush — these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."

"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."

"A lot of people die for God," one camper said, "and they're not afraid."

"We're kinda being trained to be warriors," said another, "only in a funner way."



http://kidsinministry.com/Current.PastEvents/WavesOfGlory.html for some pictures of camp in action.


movie trailer http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/

[Hulkein]

They're not being taught to physically hurt anyone, what are you so upset about? That they have a viewpoint that differs from yours?

They don't use the term warriors in a violent sense.

[StrayRogue]

Can the term warrior be used in a sense that isn't violent?

[Amber]

Oh I dunno, maybe the fact that they're being taught to lay down their lives for the gospel, praying to Bush, and learning intolerance?

[Gan]

This is the quote that disturbs me... and the fact that adults are doing this to kids rather than other adults who can form their own impressions.



"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."

[CrystalTears]

What's the problem again? I don't know what the big deal is that some people are emphatic believers. I used to be that way. I honestly don't see anything wrong in it. Frankly I'd rather they be praising, crying, glorifying God than taking drugs or causing problems. :shrug:

I suppose it just bothers me lately that being religious is automatically an incredibly bad thing.

[StrayRogue]

They have the truth indeed.

*chuckle*

[Hulkein]

Can the term warrior be used in a sense that isn't violent?

Yes, figuratively.

Ever hear of a Weekend Warrior? It's always used figuratively.

[StrayRogue]

Okay.

[Gan]

Yes, figuratively.

Ever hear of a Weekend Warrior? It's always used figuratively.

I always thought that weekend warriors were the National Guard...

[StrayRogue]

Me too.

The term, over time, became applied to other things, it would seem.

I'm struggling to find another example, however.

[Daniel]

They are. Not exactly a good example.

[Goretawn]

Not seeing the issue either. There is nothing about it being a weapons camp, a military style training camp or teaching IEDs. (Funny how that acronym is well known now). Although I am about as far from a religious man, I don't try to squash someone who is.

[RichardCranium]

Oh I dunno, maybe the fact that they're being taught to lay down their lives for the gospel, praying to Bush, and learning intolerance?

Ah, the irony.

[DeV]

"Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush."

To each his own, but damn, I always thought worshipping false idols was a no-no.

[CrystalTears]

Well yeah, clutching a picture of the president is a bit farfetched, but the other stuff is nothing new.

[Artha]

From what I understand that's exactly why they aren't worshipping it. They're praying for Bush (because they dig the Christian Agenda) and it's pretty common for Evangelicals to use a picture or relative or something to direct prayer to.

[CrystalTears]

Ah okay, that's different. Thought they were praying TO Bush. I didn't read the article much because I saw the pictures and it just brought back memories that I didn't feel the need to read anymore. My bad.

[Hulkein]

Weekend warrior is a term for people who drink and party heavily on the weekends, then go back to normal life during the week at their work. There are other meanings for it, too.

Point is, using the term warrior doesn't always mean you're going to physically harm someone else.

[Latrinsorm]

Everybody who is confirmed in the Catholic church is called a soldier for Christ. Very few people who are confirmed in the Catholic church are sent to Christo-basic training and handed a rifle.

My sociology teacher has many times stated that we are at war, only he views it more from the perspective of scientist (in terms of the science he agrees with) vs. irrational. As far as I'm aware he hasn't physically assaulted people who disagree with him.

.

I'm not sure where you're getting "intolerance", Amber. Perhaps you could elaborate.

[FinallyDomesticated]

If you watch the video, Bush is with the flag as they are saying "One nation under God." I don't think they were praying to Bush at all. I took it more as 'show love and respect' for your country.

Kids should be able to identify the president, our flag, and the Pledge. I think its good to encourage unity and loyalty for your country at a young age. With all the political dissatisfaction and bickering, our country is currently divided. We openly make fun of the president. Politics aside - a divided country is a weak country. Maybe these kids will grow up with more loyalty and respect for our nation.

As far the religious aspect, what's wrong with it? They're not sending kids out with explosive teddy bears to blow people in God's name. They're learning faith and good morals. Do I personally understand talking in tongues and faith fits? No. However, that is just how some people believe and it is only naturally they would want to share their beliefs with their kids.

And as far as the Pakistan comment, I do not for a moment believe she was saying she wanted the kids to go blow anyone up. No matter how warped the extremists may be, they have serious religious convictions. They mean their prayers instead of asking for God to give them winning lottery numbers or saying them for show. It is my opinion she wanted them to have the same level of commitment, loyalty and conviction to God.

[Amber]

Ok, maybe, as has been pointed out, I'm a hypocrite for believing that what's being done to these children is wrong and intolerable. Normally, I really am a live and let live kinda person. I believe everyone should pretty much be able to do anything at all they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone else (and yes, I know I'll get ripped a new one for this comment too more than likely).

Anyways, I feel this camp steps over the bounds and negatively affects the children involved. I think it's a rather sick and twisted way to indoctrinate a culture of hate in Jesus' name. This is pretty much the same thing which was done with the Hitler Youth and the muslim extremists...indoctrinate them at an impressionable age, teach them to hate, and twist their minds for your own agenda.

These kids are dressed in camo, dance "war dances" and play Christian combat video games, (http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117930515?categoryid=31&cs=1&s=h&p=0). Sure not the Christian values I grew up with.

I keep hoping that each generation will grow more accepting of differences in others, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.

Muslim extremism is wrong. So is Christian extremism. We need to find some common middle ground and go from there.

[Latrinsorm]

Again, where's the hate? Speaking in tongues is kinda weird, but hateful? Weeping for salvation I'm not sure what it's even about, but it doesn't sound hateful. Praying for an end to abortion certainly doesn't sound condemnatory, though you may disagree with the moral decision. Praying for Bush? If they were praying for him to get assassinated, maybe. Where's the hate?

As for extremism being "wrong", what is Jesus if not an extremist figure? Are you saying Christians shouldn't be like Jesus?

[CrystalTears]

WTF is this hate you keep on talking about??

[Apotheosis]

This is kinda SCARY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

[SpunGirl]

I think the issue here is that there's a fine line between wanting to live among, socialize with and celebrate with those who share your faith, and feeling like you need to go out and save the world. I realize this is part of the doctrine, but that's one of the main things that has always bothered me about radical Christianity. The world is filled with potential converts, not people whose ideas may have a value all their own.

I don't think this kind of camp is morally wrong. I don't agree with their ideals, but all I would ask is that they stay the fuck off my doorstep and out of my face. Whatever force shaped this world, I think the intent is clearly there for a wild variety of faiths and moral standpoints. What saves one person is damnation for another.

This seems like a good thread in which to post my favorite quote:

"And so we ask for peace for the gods of our fathers, for the gods of our native land. It is reasonable that whatever each of us worships is really to be considered one and the same. We gaze up at the same stars, the sky covers us all, the same universe compasses us. What does it matter what practical systems we adopt in our search for the truth? Not by one avenue alone can we arrive at so tremendous a secret." -Quintus Aurelius Symmachus

-K

[TheEschaton]

Making a polarizing statement that "we have the truth" implies that those who don't believe them don't have the truth. Going further on to say that they want kids willing to "lay down their lives for the gospel", which, in their minds, says they must bring salvation to everyone, implies they must be willing to die to spread their faith. The assumption here is that everyone must be saved - or they must be damned.

Many of the Muslim extremists would say they are doing the same - they lay down their lives so the unbelievers can either learn to believe....or die and be damned.

It's pretty fucking scary.

And yes, I do think there is something wrong with absolute faith. Blind faith is not faith at all, it is fanaticism.

And I agree with Latrin, we are called to be soldiers of Christ as Christian. But, as Ignatius of Loyola discerned, we are not called to bear arms, but to bear love. This isn't love - this is an unwillingness to accept that which is different.

-TheE-

[Artha]

maybe the children of our muslim extremists will go to war with the children of our christian extremists. Everybody wins!

[HarmNone]

"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."


This statement deeply concerns me. Does this mean that Ms Fisher wants to see these children drive their bomb-laden cars into hospitals, orphanages, child-care centers, schools, embassies? After all, that's what happens in Palestine, Pakistan and "all those different places". That's what happened in Oklahoma City, except the driver didn't stay with the car so I have to assume he wasn't quite ardent (or radical) enough.

"Because, excuse me, we have the truth."??? What truth? Whose truth? Is she saying that she, and her followers, are the only people in the world who are smart enough to have discovered THE truth? The arrogance of that stance is dumbfounding, as far as I'm concerned.

[Stanley Burrell]

Ahhh, I think it looks kind of like Pentecostal stuff, which is pretty trippy to watch.

...Except these guys don't have cool stuff likes snakes and fanged reptiles and what have you.

I suppose if they had all sortsa dangerous zoo animals in their routine, then maybe it would be kind of neat to watch all those funny kids raving it up within the snake and mosh pit, simultaneously.

I don't think it's that big of a deal: It's just kids blowing off steam or whatever. There is nooo way, I don't think, that these kids have any chance of actually growing into the mold that is shaping their ideology (with respect to Jesus camp.)

[SpunGirl]

There's also something to be said for kids being kids. Some of the children in those pictures looked pretty young. Becoming soldiers of Christ and wanting to be as fanatical as suicide-bombing Muslims is a little heavy for young kids.

-K

[Latrinsorm]

This isn't love - this is an unwillingness to accept that which is different.Think about this rationally for a second.
Suppose a person believes in an omniscient, omniloving, omniawesome God.
Suppose a person believes that the New Testament is a literal manual of action (in the places where the New Testament gives orders).
How is it coherent for a person to discard these God-given orders when confronted with human disagreement? How could this person possibly accept that which is different from God as correct?

This isn't saying that belief in an omni-God is the only rational choice, or that belief in the New Testament as a literal manual of action is the only rational choice. Once those choices are made, though, tolerance towards heterodoxy isn't rational. You are correct that this is an unwillingness to accept that which is different, but it's not correct to say that it isn't love.
After all, that's what happens in Palestine, Pakistan and "all those different places".If you actually read Pastor Fischer's writings, it's clear she's talking about evangelizing. It's fun to assume the worst about whatever anyone says, true, but it's fun to be right about what people say too. Especially given that this is in a Christian context, it surprises me that you'd assume the model for radical sacrifice is a non-Christian terrorist as opposed to Christ himself.
What truth?God's truth.
The arrogance of that stance is dumbfounding, as far as I'm concerned.When I actually talk to people like this, arrogance really isn't a primary emotion. (Humility is usually a big one, incidentally). They generally don't view themselves as geniuses, just lucky (though the term is usually blessed). Maybe people near you are different, I don't know, but while it's plausible for them to hypothetically be arrogant, factually speaking they're just not.

Here's a pretty representative quote from Pastor Fischer's writings:
"Frankly, I love working with kids because they are so uncomplicated. You tell them to love and they just do it. You tell them to forgive and they just do it. You tell them to believe and they just do it."

LOOK AT ALL THAT HATE... oh wait, love and forgiveness?

In seriousness, we can and should be concerned about the very last sentence there; the idea that we can or should just tell children to believe something. These other issues that people perceive (that Fischer is making hate-terrorists) really aren't there though.

[Jazuela]

CSNY describes my idea of what a "Christian Warrior" camp should be teaching:

Soldiers of peace are not fighting a war
Are not looking for enemies behind every door
Are not looking for people to kill or to maim.
Soldiers of peace are just changing the game.

Men who were fighting for all of our lives
Are now fighting for children, for homes and for wives,
Fighting for the memory of all who fell before,
But the soldiers of peace just can't kill any more.

So come all you warriors who live for the fight,
Come listen to somebody, someone who might
Have been there before you and they have the right,
They've been dying to tell you the score.
The old warriors don't want you to hurt any more.

Soldiers of peace can still hear the cries
When the people were screaming and losing their lives,
When bodies were broken and spirits were torn
The soldiers of peace do not want you to mourn.

So come all you warriors who live for the fight,
Come listen to somebody, someone who might
Have been there before you and they have the right,
They've been dying to tell you the score.
The old warriors don't want you to hurt any more.

(Soldier of Peace; Graham Nash, Craig Deorge, Joe Vitale. c. Marinara Music, 1987)

[Merala]

The problem IS that soon we're going to have American people flying planes into the buildings of the Islamic countries now. This is kind of...extreme.

[Hulkein]

The problem IS that soon we're going to have American people flying planes into the buildings of the Islamic countries now. This is kind of...extreme.

You're an idiot.

[Merala]

If that's what you think. But it's exactly that extremist stuff that we're trying to prevent in other countries. Worshipping Bush? I'd rather worship A bush. It's far more intelligent.

[TheEschaton]

This isn't saying that belief in an omni-God is the only rational choice, or that belief in the New Testament as a literal manual of action is the only rational choice. Once those choices are made, though, tolerance towards heterodoxy isn't rational.

I would argue that belief in the NT as a literal manual of action is not only not a rational choice, but it's bordering on insane.

-TheE-

[Back]

If that's what you think. But it's exactly that extremist stuff that we're trying to prevent in other countries. Worshipping Bush? I'd rather worship A bush. It's far more intelligent.

There was one famous bush back in the day that garnered much respect. But I will not type it out for fear of NSA spiders auto-logging it to the possibleterrorist.db.

Which reminds me, time to clear my cookies and certificates!

[Hulkein]

If that's what you think. But it's exactly that extremist stuff that we're trying to prevent in other countries. Worshipping Bush? I'd rather worship A bush. It's far more intelligent.

They aren't worshipping Bush, and they're not being taught to murder people who don't agree with them.

[Latrinsorm]

I would argue that belief in the NT as a literal manual of action is not only not a rational choice, but it's bordering on insane.Be that as it may, it is still not the case that tolerance of dissent with a certain tome is necessary for love to exist.
But it's exactly that extremist stuff that we're trying to prevent in other countries.There will always be American crazy people, and it's not exactly clear which side of the line some of this particular woman's beliefs fall on. It is clear that hers is a truly Christian worldview at least in that love and forgiveness are held paramount. These accusations are really disappointing.

I can't help but think of a certain protoreligion's history when I hear the line "They've been dying to tell you the score."

[CrystalTears]

What they are doing is nothing new. This isn't a brand new way of glorifying Christ and God. This was going on when I was a kid. I was there, did it myself.

There is nothing devious, sinister, terroristic (ha, if this isn't a word it is now) or malicious about what they are doing. It's just an extreme way of worshipping their Lord. The mistake was trying to compare the extreme faith to a group of people that we're currently fighting with.

It's not this big of a deal. Really.

[TheEschaton]

Until they started beating gay men to death, it wasn't a big deal. ;)

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

What I'm saying is that as a group, they're not like that. Those are individual acts that I know of that decide to act "in the name of God", but that's not what the group represents.

[Nieninque]

Here's a pretty representative quote from Pastor Fischer's writings:
"Frankly, I love working with kids because they are so uncomplicated. You tell them to love and they just do it. You tell them to forgive and they just do it. You tell them to believe and they just do it."

LOOK AT ALL THAT HATE... oh wait, love and forgiveness?

"Frankly, I love working with kids because they are so easy to manipulate"

"You tell them to love, and when you define what love for them is, they just do it"

"You tell them what to believe and they just do it."

Fixed.

And scary.

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah, I probably should have put in a sentence that said "we can and should be concerned about the very last sentence there; the idea that we can or should just tell children to believe something." in that post. :P

[Some Rogue]

So we should never teach our children to believe in something? Teaching your kid that fire will injure them is wrong? Teaching your kid to be patriotic is wrong? Or is it just teaching them religion that people take offence to?

[CrystalTears]

So we should never teach our children to believe in something? Teaching your kid that fire will injure them is wrong? Teaching your kid to be patriotic is wrong? Or is it just teaching them religion that people take offence to?
:heart:

[Back]

So we should never teach our children to believe in something? Teaching your kid that fire will injure them is wrong? Teaching your kid to be patriotic is wrong? Or is it just teaching them religion that people take offence to?

If you could have seen the spot (60 minutes last Sunday) I think you might get an idea of whats so controversial. Teaching kids right and wrong is one thing. Teaching them to fall to their knees and tearfully wail for salvation and speaking in tounges is quite another. They appear as looney as moonies.

[Nieninque]

The thing about teaching people to believe something is that ultimately, people need to make their own minds up about it.

We do teach kids to believe things. Some people teach their kids that the tooth fairy or father christmas are real. Others teach them to believe in God in his various forms. Other people teach kids to believe that it's OK, everyone's daddy touches them in this special way. Some are more dangerous than others.

What happened to people being given information to be able to make up their own minds.

You can try and tell children to believe that the fire is hot, but ultimately they find out by feeling the heat of the fire and deciding that they dont want to go there...of course, some still dont get the message.

Telling people what they should BELIEVE is fundamentally flawed. Giving people the information so they can make an informed choice, should always be the way forward, imho.

Brainwashing ftl.

[CrystalTears]

This is kinda touchy for me so I'm not sure why I'm even replying, but you really can't "force" someone to behave that way. You either feel it or you don't. You may go as far as faking it a little in order to fit in, but if you're doing that, it's because you want to be accepted by your enthusiastic peers. Personally I'd rather my child be engrossed in religion than be a drug addict or bar hopper (and I'm making this comparison in relation to people treating religion as an addicting, harmful choice, not really religious vs non-religious type of reference).

Believing so strongly in your religion that it makes you weep isn't wrong. I'll go as far as to accept that perhaps it's a bit excessive. I feel the same way about groupies who cry when they see their favorite singer perform. You may think it's wrong for you, but it's not a harmful thing.

[Nieninque]

This is kinda touchy for me so I'm not sure why I'm even replying, but you really can't "force" someone to behave that way. You either feel it or you don't. You may go as far as faking it a little in order to fit in, but if you're doing that, it's because you want to be accepted by your enthusiastic peers. Personally I'd rather my child be engrossed in religion than be a drug addict or bar hopper.

As would most people...up to the point where they are "laying down their lives" for their religion.


Believing so strongly in your religion that it makes you weep isn't wrong. I'll go as far as to accept that perhaps it's a bit excessive. I feel the same way about groupies who cry when they see their favorite singer perform. You may think it's wrong for you, but it's not a harmful thing.

What people believe doesnt really bother me when it comes to religion. If it makes them happy then that's a good thing. It becomes less good when it becomes the "I know the truth and I am going to ram it down your throat" variety of belief, and when they are targetting children, who lets face it DO want to be accepted by someone/anyone a lot of the time it goes to a different level.

Religion is fine, people can believe what they want. But as adults CHOOSE to belive one thing or another, children should be given the same rights.

And you can force kids.

[Sean]

"Believing so strongly in your religion that it makes you weep isn't wrong."

I'd argue that it is if your doing it just because your a kid and it's what you were told to do.

[CrystalTears]

Only speaking on my experience on these types of groups, I also "laid down my life". I laid down, cried, fainted, believed that the spirit of God went through me and prayed for people all of the time. I think some people are reading into "laying down your life" a bit too much. I honestly don't know how you can fake crying. More power to them I guess for being great actors? I don't know.

I never forced anything on anyone and only spoke of my religious devotion with those who were interested or approached me about it. My friends weren't like that either.

Yes, I will admit that that my family is VERY Catholic. They introduced me to youth groups and religious conferences. I liked it. They asked me, do you want to go. I would say yes. I could have said no. I'm sure there are parents who make you go to these things, and maybe my family pushed a little and it doesn't occur to me at the time.

I did the youth group thing, the conferences thing, the weeping, the praying for many years. As I got older I wasn't as fanatical about it. I still believe in God and Jesus and still pray when I can (or remember) but it just wasn't in me to be that enthusiastic later. That was my choice. I still look back on those days with fondness not regret or misery, or EVER felt that my time was wasted.

Again, yes there were people that would promote this to strangers (ramming down throats, as some of you say). I still looked at that as individuals who took it upon themselves to go that far. I didn't do that, nor did my family, nor did anyone in the groups I was involved with. They don't push religion on anyone who doesn't want to hear it, and my God, they are really religious.

I guess I'm just not quick to believe that a deep belief in something is necessarily harmful.

[Latrinsorm]

Telling people what they should BELIEVE is fundamentally flawed.If a person isn't capable of understanding Hume's sceptical [sic] solution, should we not tell that person to believe in science? Certainly a person can't make an informed decision about induction without knowing about Hume or someone of his ilk, wouldn't you agree?
up to the point where they are "laying down their lives" for their religion.The full quote is "radically laying down their lives". I think you can agree that the first word changes the interpretation a bit.

[Nieninque]

I think some people are reading into "laying down your life" a bit too much.


"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said.

Why Palestine, Pakistan and "all those different places"? Surely they have people who weep and throw themselves on the floor for religion in the US? So what is it in Palestine and Pakistan, that they do differently?

How much reading do you need to do?

[TheEschaton]

The minute drug addicts and bar hoppers tell me I'm less of a human being for not doing drugs or binge drinking is when that analogy becomes appropriate, CT.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

The minute drug addicts and bar hoppers tell me I'm less of a human being for not doing drugs or binge drinking is when that analogy becomes appropriate, CT.

-TheE-
But some were saying that believing in a religion is basically because of peer (and/or parent) pressure. Wouldn't you say some are pressured into drinking and using drugs as kids too, telling them they are square for not doing it?

[TheEschaton]

There's a difference between saying "Dude, you're such a loser for not drinking" and "Dude, you're gonna burn in Hell for not believing with me."

The worst part, IMO, is not only do people like this think that latter statement, but it's not enough to believe, you need to believe EXACTLY like they do, in such a charismatic, weeping, falling on the floor type way. I am Catholic, and have my moments of ecstasy and my moments of total utter unbelief, and I try and have my faith guided by reason, and I still get told I'm going to Hell by these zealots.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

I'm just going to agree to disagree.

[TheEschaton]

Well, then, you're gonna burn in hell!!!!!!!!1111oneone

See how annoying that is?

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

"People like this" is usually not a good way of arriving at well-founded judgments of individuals. I would think you'd be aware of this, Eschaton, given your travails with air travel.

What can you say gives you grounds from Pastor Fischer's writings/website that she preaches a hellfire Christianity rather than a forgiving Christianity?

[TheEschaton]

The bit where she claims "the truth"? Usually such a concept goes hand in hand with a belief that everyone else believes "the lies", and therefore, are going to Hell.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

UsuallyI accept without reservation that this is the case. I am not asking what is generally the case. I am asking what is specifically the case with Pastor Fischer. She claims to have "the" truth; that is not arguable. Is it necessarily the case that such a claim requires damnation for all who disagree?

When you make a mistake in citing a law (assume you ever made mistakes for the purposes of this argument), does the professor damn you? Or does the professor point out your error, allowing you to learn the truth?

[TheEschaton]

Some of my professors DO damn me. ;)

-TheE-

[Stacey]

I saw that video a few days ago and still can't get the picture of those children out of my mind. I honestly don't know if I should feel sorry for them or what. I believe that I am a deeply faithful and religious person but I find the entire video to be a bit much. Those kids flapping all around on the floor like fish and speaking in tongue was just too much for me to believe. They seemed to be praying to and not for George Bush. What happen to kids going to camp and getting poisen ivy from long walks in the woods.