Faendryl Customs, Culture

[WinterWind]

I recently started to play a Faendryl female, but the thing is, this is my first time playing one. I would like to know about any sources or documents players have written on the subject. Only thing I really have it the documentation and somewhat vague information on culture notes by another player.

[fallenSaint]

Just be evil and hateful and you'll fit right in!

[StrayRogue]

Thats Dhe'nar. Don't forget to be elitist, whiney and generally very stereotypical as well.

Reading this (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=455) won't hurt either:

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Good luck finding other stuff out there, I did the documentation I did because there was pretty much no other resources for Faendryl players who didn't want to go the serial killer/evil route.

Beyond what I've already told you, that only scratches the surface, I can only tell you that the actual documents are on my other harddrive, and in a couple months they'll likely become available again as an offshoot of my Nalfien/Narcissiia site. Until then my best suggestion is to read the documentation provided historically through Simu and to think about those events through the eyes of your Faendryl-- then to build up your Faendryl's family culture around that, as well as your Faendryl's background, motivations, personality, etc.

Steer clear of stereotypes, if they overlap once in a while so be it but I'd sincerely attempt to keep what you see other Faendryl doing in game out of your mind when working on your own-- everything from the boring color choices (red and black, of course!) to their attitude (I am so evil... except when my husband is near, then I'm all kissy kissy) and anything you come to "expect."

[WinterWind]

Actually my girl does pretty good, she does her best to act accordingly. In manner she is usually cold and distant, even with her suitor, it's hard to get a smile out of her. I don't typically see Faendryl really roleplaying, a few do, but it seems very rare. When you do get your Faendryl documentation up I would love to see it.

Don't worry, I can see my girl in many different colors, there are way too many black and grey garbed Faendryl out there. ;)

[Fallen]

I would take a look at the clothing docs, the history docs, the gem docs (many gems are used/avoided by Faendryl), and bone up on some of the Faendryl NPCs that have been about.

There are many great roleplayers who have chosen Faendryl for their race, but that isn't the focus of their character (Querthose, Mekthros, ect). Faendryl are not normally religious zealots.

Avoid smattering your character with items that contain the word Faendryl. Other than that, I would worry too much over stereotypes. Different for the sake of different isn't any better than a cookie cutter DES. Take what works for you from what is commonly done, and find the rest to fill your character in as she has further IG experiences.

Your character should not be completely set in stone from day 1.

[Parkbandit]

Be a dark elf sorcerer and just fake it from there.

[Fallen]

Grin

Or a grumpy dwarf

[WinterWind]

I really dislike items that say things like Elven, Dhe'nar, Sylvankind, Faendryl, ect. I find it to be really tacky. While I agree that Querthose and Mekthros are outstanding, I don't really see them RPing their culture. I want my Faendryl ro represent her culture, though I find the whole clothing doc a bit restricted, seeing as they made Faendryl look more like gypsies.. Which I just do not see my character doing.


But I will however read up on Faendryl NPCs.


And uh she is a sorceress (Another first for me.)

[StrayRogue]

Arkans was always a good Faendryl RPer. Whatever happened to him??

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Arkans was always a good Faendryl RPer. Whatever happened to him??

Good except for his marriage, to a human I believe. I always found that to be exceedingly odd, ha!

[Stunseed]

It's because he liked giving his shiney pussy two hard slaps.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

It's because he liked giving his shiney pussy two hard slaps.

Oh god, that's nearly as classic as the toe log.

[TheEschaton]

I'm personally a fan of Fisdan's fuck up

[Necromancer]

My advice on RPing a character with a strict identity category in GS (and really, most racial identities in GS are pretty strict) is to really sit down and think about what you would like to play first, and THEN go over the documentation and such. I think the mark of good RPing is less about how you explicitly follow the "rules" and more about how you use the rules to create a believable character (which often means specifically breaking those rules in a way that still reifies them).

It is very easy to simply rely on documentation to communicate your character to others for you, or to be a significant portion of that communication. It's much more difficult to find ways to use those rules as simple backdrop. That's an important RP skill that is equally necessary for strict documentation characters and the nutty characters we all know and love.

Personally, I've always been somewhat annoyed by people who take their RP too seriously. I created an over-the-top, anime-style Faendryl Sorcer EVIL DOER OF DARKNESS, SNAKE SKIN, AND GREEN HAIR! mostly to have a character I could laugh at and be entertained by (and, admittedly, to annoy the people who took things too seriously). I think the skill comes in when you manage to make a character like that fully believable no matter how extreme they are. I like to think that when Querthose threatens to rip someone to pieces or unleash his wrath, in my sillier moments, that the character in question hestitates for a moment because on some level they recognize that this is a person who would actually do these things (even if he as a PC never has).

So sit down with your Faendryl character and ponder what will be the most enjoyable for you. What kind of RP experience are YOU looking for as a player? Then, scour the documentation again and use it as a backdrop for your character. Find the ways in which your character "fits" the docs, and then use examples in the docs to illustrate it (your character is a sorceress? Perhaps she wears despanal jewelry for the magical enhancement it provides to some of her spells). Finds the ways in which your character simply doesn't "fit" into the docs, and use the very rules your character is breaking to explain why your character isn't following them to the "T". (your character is a zealot? Maybe she was raised by a Faendryl exile far from the New City and never actually grew up in it? Oh wait, that one's mine, GET YOUR OWN!) I think that's going to be your best base for a well-RP'd character.

But, then again, of all the GS skills I've acquired, my RP is definitely my weakest. So take my advice as you will <g>

[Nauriel]

hrm okay, they need more documents! Anyway ive found this useful for a Faendryl prespective on historial things and just general views.

http://myweb.cableone.net/darkmoon1974/runeraven/fhletter.htm

[Miss X]

Steer clear of stereotypes

Okay... But then...


Good except for his marriage, to a human I believe. I always found that to be exceedingly odd, ha!


Arkans was definitely a great role player, I've really enjoyed every interaction with him and his portrayal of a Faendryl is actually quite original in nature although true to Faendryl history etc.


Also, to others who decide to make pretty out of line comments and then delete them... Firstly, get your facts straight. Secondly, It seriously reeked of hypocrisy.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Okay... But then...




Arkans was definitely a great role player, I've really enjoyed every interaction with him and his portrayal of a Faendryl is actually quite original in nature although true to Faendryl history etc.


Also, to others who decide to make pretty out of line comments and then delete them... Firstly, get your facts straight. Secondly, It seriously reeked of hypocrisy.

My steer clear of stereotypes was taken out of context by you. By stereotypes I meant the in-Game Faendryl stereotypes.. including but not limited to: Evil for no apparent reason, worships a dark Arkati just because they're evil, wear's black and red because that's more "goth", etc etc etc. Everyone here can tell you a ton of Faendryl stereotypes that exist in game that have nothing to do with documentation. Using stereotypes to archtype your character is fine to me as long as there is motivation behind your character to fit into that archtype. I guess what I should have put was: Steer clear of the stereotypes you see portrayed by most of the Faendryl in game, because most of it is not based at all in the actual Faendry Simu Documentation.

Anyway. I liked Arkans as a roleplayer, my half-elf and him had some interesting times and he was always very believable. The only time he wasn't to me though was the time I pointed out-- when he was with his wife and kissy and smoochy.

[WinterWind]

Thank you Necromancer and Nauriel. Yours is the best information and advice I have gotten so far.

[Rokkyu]

hmm lots of Faendryl bashing here. Anyway I'll take my stab at it.

The reason for the "stereotype" about Faendryl being "evil" or worshipping Lornon Arkati is because...gasp the majority of the best roleplayer's did this!

It's just as easy in reality to roleplay a follower of a dark god with any other race, the only difference is the amount of Faendry who have done it exceedingly well before, Nevrek, Armaxis, Setzier, and myself have all been roleplaying Lornonite Faendry for a very long time.

If you can get any of the documentation written by Silvean on Faendryl customs, or even better yet a copy of all the documentation that was on the old House Chesylcha website you'd be off to a very strong start.

Next, get any old logs you can of Lylia, and Silvean because these two roleplayed Faendryl to a tee. There is a certain ridgedness that Faendryl have because of their past. This is a people who used demons to save the entire elven race from the undead, and were banished because of it.

Faendryl appear dark and hateful because well they are, they are not content with what happened to them. many faendryl want other races to suffer as they have.

Anyway though, Silvean and Lylia anything you can find that has those two's names on it is bound to be a goldmine of Faendryl information.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Except that it states in documentation that the Faendryl are a nation of Atheists. Meaning that it's socially taboo to strongly associate yourself with an Arkati while in New Ta'Faendryl. Meaning that if your Faendryl is strongly influenced by Arkati and not knowledge/custom then your Faendryl doesn't really fall into the category of "proper".

As for Faendryl appearing dark and hateful, I think it's a poor roleplaying choice personally to try and roleplay a character based on what other people will think rather than an intrinsic motivation to behave a certain way. I always roleplayed my Faendryl as bitter and hateful towards Elves, but even then that only peppered her every day actions. She had an elitist attitude but I didn't go out of my way to make everyone see her and think she was evil and dark.

And in way of wanting other races to suffer-- I don't see why they'd want all races to suffer. The Elves were the ones who banished them and took their throne in payment for saving Elanthia. I can see Faendryl hating Elves but keeping that distinctly elven racial indifference in regards to other races.

Anyway on another note, my own information on my other hard drive will be available by the end of the month and I will put it up for browsing by other interested players.

[Rokkyu]

Except that it states in documentation that the Faendryl are a nation of Atheists. Meaning that it's socially taboo to strongly associate yourself with an Arkati while in New Ta'Faendryl. Meaning that if your Faendryl is strongly influenced by Arkati and not knowledge/custom then your Faendryl doesn't really fall into the category of "proper".

Ii agree completely, however all of the names I mentioned were exceptions to the rule, they existed in the frontiers, and were all as far as i know touched by that arkati away from new ta'faendryl. Just because a lot of us were roleplaying woshippers of dark arkati really means nothing, it was our personal choice. That is why I put Lylia and Silvean as my examples of Faendryl. Neither of them openly worshipped any Arkati, and unless you knew the two of them you couldn't appreciate the depth of the roleplay they were doing. A great majority of Faendryl culture was influenced, or made up by Silvean.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Never met them but if you have links to any essays/documents of their work I'd love that. While I was doing my own documentation I couldn't find anything after like a month of searching, besides guides to Sorcery, etc. Nothing culturally about the Faendryl.

[Necromancer]

Let's clarify a few things here.

Faendryl are NOT Atheists in the classical sense. They believe in the Arkati; they just don't think of them as Gods. That does not, however, mean that they believe they are not supremely powerful. Thus, a Faendryl can easily begin a relationship with an Arkati as a way to gain power in return for doing some small tasks. Amasalen is a perfect example of a Faendryl who followed a dark god (Luukos) for his own power and become a religious zealot in the process: Faendryl are not immune to being controlled and manipulated (or inspired) by the Arkati. So Faendryl are still very much capable of a relationship with the Arkati.

And the second poster is quite correct when pointing out how many Faendryl Lornon zealots have been done exceedingly well. The old names still ring clear, and let's face it, many of the newest generation of GS RPers got their training during GSS: which inspires religious-RP.

I also find it rather offensive that as a player Narcissisia, you think you know the motivations of other players and their characters based on their external behaviors. You assume that they are "dark" or "evil" for one or two particular reasons, but in reality it's simply an assumption on your part. I cannot speak for anyone else's character, but I can say personally mine had many months of RP that went into the transition into a cruel and evil creature from someone who didn't care enough about other races to really be invested either way.

I think ultimately one of the major problems in GS RP stems from a small group of people who seem to think they own RP and RP rules. An individual's personal interpretations of how RP should be done or how certain races/classes/etc should/should not act is fine, well, and good, but it's limited in scope. There is nothing I personally find more irksome than watching RP snobs run around judging others in a way that staunches creativity instead of simply supporting it and learning to adapt. I have often found that the motivations behind this behavior come from a deep-seated need to control the RP environment in a way that allows that individual/those individuals to guarantee themselves a particular type of RP interaction. This is, of course, the opposite of roleplaying, which is free-form at its heart. It's scripting. And it's just as onerous as script-hunting.

[Elvenlady]

Well said. I'd agree with that 100%.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Let's clarify a few things here.

Faendryl are NOT Atheists in the classical sense. They believe in the Arkati; they just don't think of them as Gods. That does not, however, mean that they believe they are not supremely powerful. Thus, a Faendryl can easily begin a relationship with an Arkati as a way to gain power in return for doing some small tasks. Amasalen is a perfect example of a Faendryl who followed a dark god (Luukos) for his own power and become a religious zealot in the process: Faendryl are not immune to being controlled and manipulated (or inspired) by the Arkati. So Faendryl are still very much capable of a relationship with the Arkati.

And the second poster is quite correct when pointing out how many Faendryl Lornon zealots have been done exceedingly well. The old names still ring clear, and let's face it, many of the newest generation of GS RPers got their training during GSS: which inspires religious-RP.

I also find it rather offensive that as a player Narcissisia, you think you know the motivations of other players and their characters based on their external behaviors. You assume that they are "dark" or "evil" for one or two particular reasons, but in reality it's simply an assumption on your part. I cannot speak for anyone else's character, but I can say personally mine had many months of RP that went into the transition into a cruel and evil creature from someone who didn't care enough about other races to really be invested either way.

I think ultimately one of the major problems in GS RP stems from a small group of people who seem to think they own RP and RP rules. An individual's personal interpretations of how RP should be done or how certain races/classes/etc should/should not act is fine, well, and good, but it's limited in scope. There is nothing I personally find more irksome than watching RP snobs run around judging others in a way that staunches creativity instead of simply supporting it and learning to adapt. I have often found that the motivations behind this behavior come from a deep-seated need to control the RP environment in a way that allows that individual/those individuals to guarantee themselves a particular type of RP interaction. This is, of course, the opposite of roleplaying, which is free-form at its heart. It's scripting. And it's just as onerous as script-hunting.


This is a thread talking about how to roleplay-- not about critiquing other's roleplay. I know for a fact, from talking to some roleplayed characters, that they are roleplayed with the intent to make them evil, and NOT with motivations. I never, however, have named names in this thread, OR in any other thread, on who has roleplayed like that.

I have merely said that I think it is a folly to roleplay based on outside motivation-- and that roleplaying a character to be evil, just for the sake of being evil, will likely lead to the opposite of an immersive and multi-dimensional character.

Most of what you've said I can agree with-- but then again, I don't agree with your assumption that I demand to control roleplay and character advancement. But when my character asks another in game why they worship Marlu and their response is, "Because he's evil, and I'm evil," then yeah, I'm going to begin to think that this person's motivation is a little lacking. When I continue to press them in game, their further response is "I'm just evil, can't you tell by how I'm dressed?". If I'm a snob because that serious response makes me want to bash my head into a wall, then yeah, call me a snob, because that's fucking retarded in real life and just as retarded in game.

Frankly, you don't have to KNOW the exact motivation of someone to know that they HAVE motivation. It's the same way that you can talk to another human being and know they're human and not a zombie, or not mentally unstable, or whatever. It's an overall way they behave and act. My strongest suggestions with ALL roleplay is to focus more on your character internally in order to consistently roleplay whatever role you so choose, since consistency in roleplay makes a well-rounded character, and is generally born of focused motivation whether that is to accomplish a goal or live their life with Zelia's gift of Madness. And no matter how much I think a motivation is lacking-- I don't let that OOC judgement bleed into my characters which, at the heart of it, is all that matters. I'm allowed my personal judgements on specific characters (as is everyone else) and they are judgements that I never, ever post on the boards.

And also, there's nothing I find more irksome than somebody who presumes to know what I think of other characters and my attitudes/attributes as a person, based on some posts made merely with a strong point of view and opinion but that were basically poo-pooing on no one, just pointing out things that I observed and felt were a given in various situations.

Roleplay is free-form at heart but there are guidelines to roleplay in Gemstone. Go check out play.net and read the pages upon pages of official documentation if you have an issue understanding this. Because personally, I find a total disregard for the documentation and customs and rules of the Land to be as annoying as someone who script hunts just to farm silver just to sell it on Ebay. If someone wants no paremeters it's been said many times by both GMs and players alike that they should feel free to go to a freeform roleplay forum or chat. It's not stifling in Elanthia that there are limits-- it's called immersion because utterly free form would jar most people out of the roleplay experience.

And finally-- don't insert into my post what you interpret my post to mean, i.e. that all Evil characters are only evil for superficial reasons. Not once did I did I say that or even imply that-- I said that it was good to steer away from being evil for the sake of being evil. Obviously you know none of my characters (some that are considered evil, omg!) and friends of characters, not to mentions friends and associates that don't fit into perfect little roleplay stereotypes according to documentation. The ONE common link among all of them however is motivation and consistency, and one that I think anyone who achieves it should be damn proud of. So before you shoot your mouth off again towards me because of your own insecurity about your own roleplay and the possibility that my opinion threatens it, take some time to actually read what I posted. Thanks.

[Rokkyu]

this is a stupid topic, but I will say one more thing. An evil character will never think himself evil, or at least he should'nt, he thinks he is doing something righteous

[Usurper83]

There is a lesser Arkati that is formerly a Faendryl.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

this is a stupid topic, but I will say one more thing. An evil character will never think himself evil, or at least he should'nt, he thinks he is doing something righteous

Most of the evil chars I've met, this has been exactly the case ;)

[ViridianAsp]

this is a stupid topic, but I will say one more thing. An evil character will never think himself evil, or at least he should'nt, he thinks he is doing something righteous


If you read from the begining of this thread, is wasn't about evil Faendryl. It was about finding out more about Faendryl customs and culture because Simu has little to nothing about them. While they have plenty for Fair and Sylvan elves.

The intent was to get opinions and information on said culture. Not to hear about how people are evil and whatnot.


Way to take a thread way off course.

[Latrinsorm]

Faendryl are NOT Atheists in the classical sense.Yeah they are. They don't religiously believe in a higher supernatural power. Believing the Arkati are stronger in some ways doesn't elevate the Arkati to god status under any rational definition of god. It's very much the same as a person who espouses Dr. Durkheim's position; the person does not believe in God as a God but only as a symbol for and creation of society.
I think ultimately one of the major problems in GS RP stems from a small group of people who seem to think they own RP and RP rules. An individual's personal interpretations of how RP should be done or how certain races/classes/etc should/should not act is fine, well, and good, but it's limited in scope.Except GS does have a very explicit set of rules with regards to RP. There is an objective framework that we have all agreed to abide by that transcends personal taste.
I have often found that the motivations behind this behavior come from a deep-seated need to control the RP environment in a way that allows that individual/those individuals to guarantee themselves a particular type of RP interaction.I have often found the opposite.
An evil character will never think himself evil, or at least he should'nt, he thinks he is doing something righteousYou've never seen a person (think teenagers) wallow in what ey thinks is evil? The reason is not because it's right, but specifically because it's wrong.

[Rokkyu]

If your character ever calls themself evil then you are among the top 5 worst roleplayers ever, and I won't be interacting with you either way.

a teenager acting like a gothic idiot to spite mommy and daddy is a very far cry from roleplaying a religious zealot who believes they are working as their god's right hand.

[Fallen]

Getting back towards the main focus of this thread, I have still yet to see much of any Faendryl characters that are played as what one would expect from the culture. People cry about stereotypes, though I certainly haven't met up with a stereotypical Faendryl in a good, long while.

[Rokkyu]

Maybe because we're not in new ta'faendryl, we're in the frontiers, if you want to see stereotypical faendryl don't look in the end of the world where all the races mix freely

It's a shame the old House Chesylcha website isn't up, maybe if someone could get a hold of Hadiar, he might still have all the essays, and documents Silvean wrote.

[Latrinsorm]

a teenager acting like a gothic idiot to spite mommy and daddy is a very far cry from roleplaying a religious zealot who believes they are working as their god's right hand.Can you not conceive of an areligious zealot who does really crappy things just because?

I'm curious though, how did you come to pick "top 5" as opposed to "top 10" or "top 40"?

[Jolena]

I know Hadiar, I'll ask him nexttime ALAE meets if he has any of those documents and let you guys know.

[Jolena]

Can you not conceive of an areligious zealot who does really crappy things just because?

I'm curious though, how did you come to pick "top 5" as opposed to "top 10" or "top 40"?

Heh, I'm going to assume that it was a sarcastic, randomized # that he just threw out there. Not everyone is literal when they make comments, hon.

[Rokkyu]

hmm I'm not sure where I said top 5 anywhere around it.

and I don't think any of the really well-played religious zealots do anything "just because" to be evil. From personal experience whenever Grhim does anything that is seen as "evil" or "malicious" it is from a thought process revolving around increasing Sheru's influence.

[Back]

On the role-play aspect of “evil” I have to agree with Latrin. People can be evil just to be evil and its just as valid as someone being evil and not knowing or stating that as a reason.

[Rokkyu]

On the role-play aspect of “evil” I have to agree with Latrin. People can be evil just to be evil and its just as valid as someone being evil and not knowing or stating that as a reason.

It is this kind of attitude that makes "dark" characters seem stupid. Think about the most evil people in history, or even of today. Did Adolf Hitler consider himself evil? Does Osama bin laden? Does Saddam Hussain? Charles Manson?

They consider themselves hero's, and most thought they were doing the work of god. It takes a very twisted person to commit truely evil acts, twisted to the point where they think what they are doing is truely the right thing.

If you want to roleplay a dark, or evil character, more power to you, but please at least put a little more thought into it than above poster.

Evil for the sake of evil is nothing more than angsty goth bullshit.

[Back]

It is this kind of attitude that makes "dark" characters seem stupid. Think about the most evil people in history, or even of today. Did Adolf Hitler consider himself evil? Does Osama bin laden? Does Saddam Hussain? Charles Manson?

They consider themselves hero's, and most thought they were doing the work of god. It takes a very twisted person to commit truely evil acts, twisted to the point where they think what they are doing is truely the right thing.

If you want to roleplay a dark, or evil character, more power to you, but please at least put a little more thought into it than above poster.

Evil for the sake of evil is nothing more than angsty goth bullshit.

Its just my opinion that anything well played is fine. You are right, evil for evil’s sake is pretty twisted. We’re getting into Dahmer territory. Or think of the class bully who picks on people just because he can. Or people who do things that they know are wrong just to get the thrill. Or other people who have fun at other people’s expense and misery.

It may not take as much thought but there are people in the world of reality and fiction who do get off on the thrill and that is enough of a motivation, if well played.

But this is entirely off-topic.

[Rokkyu]

bullying? it comes from a sense of inferiority usually, or deep rooted problems at home.

doing things just for the thrill of them? I would suspect you are talking about cleptomania, in which case I would say that is a far cry from evil as well, stupid maybe, evil, no way

having fun at other peoples expense is just a form of bullying as well.

So far you've said absolutely nothing that would suggest anyone is evil just for the sake of being evil is a common occurence

[Latrinsorm]

Ok, deep breath.

We recognize that some people who commit evil are convinced they are doing good, and such people can become so convinced through religious ideologies.

An important thing for you to recognize is that just as people can do good solely for the sake of doing good, people can do evil solely for the sake of doing evil. Humanity (or elfanity, as the case may be) is not so constructed that we are naturally inclined towards the good; perhaps this is partially because we don't have an intuitive grasp of what the good is, or perhaps it is because humanity is just stubborn. The reason is irrelevant; the simple fact is we are not genetically saints.

Imagine what would happen if we took a particular "race" of humans (let's say the English) and expelled them from Europe and global society as a whole. Let's suppose further that we condemned them to Antarctica. After a few centuries of isolation and open racism, do you think Anglo citizens would generally be inclined towards any majorly accepted morality?

[HarmNone]

Maybe because we're not in new ta'faendryl, we're in the frontiers, if you want to see stereotypical faendryl don't look in the end of the world where all the races mix freely

It's a shame the old House Chesylcha website isn't up, maybe if someone could get a hold of Hadiar, he might still have all the essays, and documents Silvean wrote.

OMG! That would be fantastic! Find heeem! Get theeem! Yes! :D

[Rokkyu]

Ok, deep breath.

We recognize that some people who commit evil are convinced they are doing good, and such people can become so convinced through religious ideologies.

An important thing for you to recognize is that just as people can do good solely for the sake of doing good, people can do evil solely for the sake of doing evil. Humanity (or elfanity, as the case may be) is not so constructed that we are naturally inclined towards the good; perhaps this is partially because we don't have an intuitive grasp of what the good is, or perhaps it is because humanity is just stubborn. The reason is irrelevant; the simple fact is we are not genetically saints.

Imagine what would happen if we took a particular "race" of humans (let's say the English) and expelled them from Europe and global society as a whole. Let's suppose further that we condemned them to Antarctica. After a few centuries of isolation and open racism, do you think Anglo citizens would generally be inclined towards any majorly accepted morality?

and you think that being expelled to a desert where over half of your people died in the case of the Faendryl and feeling resentful to those who did it to you is evil?

Anyway you still haven't cited anything where someone at any time in history was just being evil because they thought it was cool or something. It just doesn't go along with conscious thought, and the ability to reason. To commit truely evil, and heinous acts you have to be twisted, and convinced that what you are doing is serving a greater good.

I'm rather curious to see how you answer these two questions, because you just seem to be side-skirting, and repeating yourself.

[Tolwynn]

Someone can simply be depraved or disassociated and not necessarily believing their acts are doing or serving a greater good.

Just for the hell of it, square Caligula, Vlad the Impaler, the BTK killer and Jeffrey Dahmer with that 'greater good' theory.

[Nilandia]

Someone can simply be depraved or disassociated and not necessarily believing their acts are doing or serving a greater good.

Just for the hell of it, square Caligula, Vlad the Impaler, the BTK killer and Jeffrey Dahmer with that 'greater good' theory.
Views of Caligula are exceptionally varied. Explanations of his actions include mental disorders such as antisocial personality disorder and physical illness such as meningitis, to an individual working to centralize Roman Imperial power against the Senate.

It should be noted that most of the accounts were written by Senators, those in the very positions he was working against and with the greatest motivations to invent or exaggerate any flaws. Likewise, it should also be noted that it was far from unheard of to accuse political opponents of deviant sexual behavior. Thus, many of the accounts we have of Caligula's reign are suspect at best on the basis of their motivations.

Vlad Tepes is much the same way. His role as an "evil" ruler has already been discussed in another thread, so I'll quote what I wrote there.


Not to excuse Vlad's actions completely, but you must understand that Vlad's situation was exceptionally unstable.

The monarchy was an elective, where the nobility chose their ruler from those who were descended from a specific line, so the nobility held exceptional political power and the monarchy was, in a way, indebted to the nobles. At the same time, Wallachia was somewhat of the battleground between Hungary and the Ottoman Empire.

Add to that a personal vendetta spawned by the death of Vlad's father, who was said to have been killed by the same Wallachian nobles still in power, another faction of the line that disputed Vlad's rule, Vlad being removed from power twice and an intense hatred of the Ottomans due to Vlad having been a "hostage" in the Ottoman Empire where he was introduced to torture through first-hand experience.

Even without an underlying mental illness that most seem to agree was there, Vlad had to be brutal to survive. And this is even assuming that all accounts of Vlad's actions were true, though there is more than enough evidence to suspect that some were more politically motivated than a factual account of events.

BTK and Jeffrey Dahmer fall into similar categories, so I'll cover them both at the same time. Serial killers, as a whole, act out extremes in desires for power and control and a way to resolve the inherent contradiction between their simultaneous feelings of superiority and inferiority. Serial killers are masters of manipulation of themselves and others, and only in exceptionally rare cases do they feel they're doing "evil." Even when they know they're doing evil, they find a number of ways to justify what they're doing.

In the cases cited, I will admit I am not familiar with BTK, but from a cursory glance, it appears that sexual fantasy motivated Dennis Rader, and later on a desire to prove his supposed intellectual superiority drove him to kill. Jeffrey Dahmer was motivated by a desire to find the perfect, completely submissive, sexual partner, to the point of drilling holes in his victims' skulls and pouring acid in while they were still alive.

Neither of them delighted in doing "evil" just for evil's sake. Of course, they didn't think they were helping the greater good, either.

Gretchen

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I gotta agree with Gretchen on that one.. even if they don't believe their is greater good being done, then there is still something behind their actions be it fucked up circumstance or just a messed up brain. I don't think it's something that they sat down and decided, I want to be a Serial Killer!

In way of Faendryl I'm sure there will be some of those that are messed up in the head.. but I guess what confuses me is how seemingly every Faendryl in game (not saying EVERY Faendryl but a lot of them) are roleplayed to be this Evil type of a sociopath. Heh, maybe that's why they left Ta'Faendryl, because they're sociopaths.. I dunno.

Anyway, I've veered far enough off topic.

[Fallen]

In way of Faendryl I'm sure there will be some of those that are messed up in the head.. but I guess what confuses me is how seemingly every Faendryl in game (not saying EVERY Faendryl but a lot of them) are roleplayed to be this Evil type of a sociopath. Heh, maybe that's why they left Ta'Faendryl, because they're sociopaths.. I dunno.

Anyway, I've veered far enough off topic.>>

Basically, you've the right of it. I doubt the Mekthros's and Querthose's of Elanthia would be tolerated for very long in Ta'Faendryl proper. Pretty much every adventurer that is wandering about in some swamp or deserted city killing things is a bit ..abnormal.

[Latrinsorm]

and you think that being expelled to a desert where over half of your people died in the case of the Faendryl and feeling resentful to those who did it to you is evil?I'll take that as a "no" to my question.

As to your question, what I think is that such a situation would very strongly encourage people to lash out simply for the sake of lashing out (i.e. revenge). To succumb to that motivation would be morally unacceptable.
To commit truely evil, and heinous acts you have to be twisted, and convinced that what you are doing is serving a greater good.Humanity is a lot more subtle and variegated than people give it credit for. If you do not disagree that people can do good simply for the sake of doing good, how can you disagree that people can do evil simply for the sake of doing evil? How can you look at history and say humanity is at some level inherently good?

Certainly, Faendryl are not identical with humans. Biology suggests they're at least the same species as Elanthian humans, though, so it doesn't seem very unreasonable to make an analogy to real-world humans.

[Necromancer]

Evil in elanthia is very much done for the express purpose of being evil in many instances. Yes, the servants of the "evil" Arkati see themselves as doing Holy Work, but these Arkati gain their power specifically from the evil of these acts (death, terror, bloodshed, etc). So it's quite okay to be evil simply for the sake of it.

Also, as has been mentioned, one can simply take pleasure in derranged acts. It's plausable and therefore acceptable motivation. And that's not even cracking the nut of "why do players want to have evil characters?".

And, no, the Faendryl are not atheists in any classical sense that we use the term to be. Atheists do not believe in ANY higher power, not simply whatever abstract notion of "God" you want to use (and to be clear, there's a lot of evidence that the way it is used in many of our major religions bears little or nor resemblence to the way it is used in Elanthian mythology). Also, the mere fact that New Ta'Faendryl reportedly has temples should make that clear. That's not to say that they have faith in a sense that we would use, but, rather, it points to the need to really step outside of our own heads on the subject of religion to begin to understand how to enact an Elanthian/Faendryl version in our characters. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done a great job of that, and many of Quert's weakest points come from his inability to truly explain why he thinks Luukos is infallable (which is how "God" is looked at here but makes zero sense in an Elanthian world); I find that to be a direct result of my failure to separate myself from my assumptions, so I'm not talking out of my...uh hat here.

PS Did Latrin and Hakwea take the same "How To Post" classes or something?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Evil in elanthia is very much done for the express purpose of being evil in many instances. Yes, the servants of the "evil" Arkati see themselves as doing Holy Work, but these Arkati gain their power specifically from the evil of these acts (death, terror, bloodshed, etc). So it's quite okay to be evil simply for the sake of it.


Doing Evil for the sake of being evil because you help your Arkati IS a type of motivation.

On the subject of motivation-- playing your character as evil because he's a sociopath, that's motivation right there. But the thing is, having a sociopath tendency should pepper his other behaviors and not just when he's being an evil serial killer. The same thing with ANY character. All I am saying is that ANY motivation-- be it an intrinsic motivation to cause pain/suffering or serving your Arkati by killing people, should be applied to more than just the actual killing and causing pain. I personally feel that should be taken into account with the rest of their everday actions and feelings, to prevent incongruency.

[Latrinsorm]

And, no, the Faendryl are not atheists in any classical sense that we use the term to be.I'll stick with Hume's and the Oxford English dictionary's definition as the "classical" one, thanks.