Terrorist threat level

[Asha]

Seems while I was asleep security forces foiled terrorist attempts to commit mass murder on ' an unimaginable scale '.
There's gonna be a world of shit for anyone wanting to travel today as the nations security alert is at critical.
Fuck.

[Asha]

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1841140,00.html)

<<Heathrow officials said all milk for babies would have to be tasted by an "accompanying passenger".>>
Good grief.

[Sean of the Thread]

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1841140,00.html)

<<Heathrow officials said all milk for babies would have to be tasted by an "accompanying passenger".>>
Good grief.

I ain't tasting someone's fucking milk.. they better be hiring a full time milk tester that stands up at the gate.

Wait.. breast milk or ?

[Latrinsorm]

I'm really glad that nobody got blown up.

I personally would feel much less comfortable having police milling around with machine guns in a crowded airport.

[Landrion]

Outstanding. Hopefully every time a plot gets shut down it discourages others from even trying it.

Glad I have no travel plans for a while though.

[Kuyuk]

So what's the evidence of the threat? Or are we making stuff up again....



K.

[Gan]

From what I can gather, the suspects, ~21 in all, tried to bring on chemical components that, when assembled, would make a bomb. They were targeting multiple airlines and multiple flights to the US.

The scanners picked up some of the components in their innate form, and the plot was foiled.

[Sean of the Thread]

So what's the evidence of the threat? Or are we making stuff up again....



K.


Does your mommy hold your hand when you watch the news or just when you bake cakes?

[ElanthianSiren]

From what I can gather, the suspects, ~21 in all, tried to bring on chemical components that, when assembled, would make a bomb. They were targeting multiple airlines and multiple flights to the US.

The scanners picked up some of the components in their innate form, and the plot was foiled.


Does Britain have the same cockpit security that we do in the states? I don't even know, honestly.

Good thing it was stopped though. From what I've read it actually doesn't seem like scanners were involved -- or were you talking about intelligence sweeps?

-M
edit: I wonder how all those husbands feed about public breast feeding vs pumping now (yes, that comment was tongue in cheek).

[Celephais]

I ain't tasting someone's fucking milk.. they better be hiring a full time milk tester that stands up at the gate.

Wait.. breast milk or ?

I don't get this either, it's not like if a terrorist is going to blow himself up, he'll be like "gee, I heard this liquid explosive they gave me is toxic, better not taste any". Couldn't they just taste it, act like it's not so terrible, and then bring it onboard?

And you bring up a good point... as gross as this might sound, it's not exactly impossible to get a liquid injected into your bladder, go to the bathroom, don't flush, have your counterpart go to the bathroom right after you... boom.

I'm just really glad they caught on to them...

[Hulkein]

I'm really glad that nobody got blown up.

I personally would feel much less comfortable having police milling around with machine guns in a crowded airport.

Airports in Italy are full of guys walking around with automatic weapons, really not a big deal to me.

Very glad they stopped this plot.

[Sean of the Thread]

Airports in Puerto Rico is full of guys in full bdu carring autos... to keep the citizens from stealing your luggage.

[StrayRogue]

Nice to know we actually took some action when it came to threats of mass terrorism.

GO US.

[Parkbandit]

I think we should just remember that these 21 innocent people are just victims of Israel and the US and that if only we told them how much they are loved, that this silly plot could be forgotten and we could live happily ever after.

<3

[Parkbandit]

Nice to know we actually took some action when it came to threats of mass terrorism.

GO US.

I'm certain there is sarcasm in here.. I just don't get it. I hope you are not inferring that the British are doing more than the US when it comes to mass terrorism... that would make you look stupid.

[Hulkein]

You expect anything of merit coming from StrayCat when it comes to politics?

He is good at Gemstone formulas, though.

[StrayRogue]

I'm certain there is sarcasm in here.. I just don't get it. I hope you are not inferring that the British are doing more than the US when it comes to mass terrorism... that would make you look stupid.

No. NOW, I am sure the America Government are doing all they can to avoid another 911.

[Sean of the Thread]

No. NOW, I am sure the America Government are doing all they can to avoid another 911.

The UK is doing everything it can to ensure a good haddock season however. Win/win situation.

[Hulkein]

By the way I was just kidding with the StrayCat comment.

FREE XCALIBUR!!!!!

[StrayRogue]

The UK is doing everything it can to ensure a good haddock season however. Win/win situation.

Oh look, another complete abandonment of the actual thread and point by Xyelin. What a fucking shock.

Post count +1.

[Parkbandit]

No. NOW, I am sure the America Government are doing all they can to avoid another 911.

LOL... glad the London Train bombings never happened.. because if they did you would be full of your typical shit.

Oh wait.. 7/7/05... You ARE full of shit!

Grats?

[El Burro]

I ain't tasting someone's fucking milk.. they better be hiring a full time milk tester that stands up at the gate.

Wait.. breast milk or ?

Pretty sure the "accompanying passenger" would be an infant. Otherwise I'd think a pretty big red flag would be thrown up.

[StrayRogue]

LOL... glad the London Train bombings never happened.. because if they did you would be full of your typical shit.

Oh wait.. 7/7/05... You ARE full of shit!

Grats?

While both are equally tragic I know which was the worse event.

Its also pretty well documented that your government had so much more warning about 911 than we ever did about 7/7.

[Sean of the Thread]

While both are equally tragic I know which was the worse event.

Its also pretty well documented that your government had so much more warning about 911 than we ever did about 7/7.


Our government is your government.. UK is our lil bitch.


Puppet ftw.

[StrayRogue]

Post Count +1.

[Sean of the Thread]

Post Count +1.

And I care about my post count as much as I give a shit about these boards and our puppet UK. Feel free to keep your +1 stun jr. .. u know we're all impressed that you're as witty as stunseed. Fucking puppet.

[Czeska]

So childish back and forth crap aside...

Someone I know works for TSA and they've cancelled all days off and are requiring 7 10-hour shifts/week now. The alert is VERY high, and the Intelligence that got into the hands of the Brits however it did, saved more lives than we lost on 9/11, it's suspected.

I'll go count my blessings and ignore the bullshit. I'm out.

[Wezas]

Pretty sure the "accompanying passenger" would be an infant. Otherwise I'd think a pretty big red flag would be thrown up.

I was thinking more likely it would be the adult/parent accompanying the infant.

[StrayRogue]

And I care about my post count as much as I give a shit about these boards and our puppet UK. Feel free to keep your +1 stun jr. .. u know we're all impressed that you're as witty as stunseed. Fucking puppet.

Post Count +1

[Miss X]

If I see even another HINT of competing over which country is better at avoiding deaths due to terrorism I'm going to go crazy. This isn't the place for it. The loss of one life due to terrorists is as tragic as the loss of thousands. Regardless of information and intelligence, if an event can be prevented I'm certain both the UK and US governments would put in the same amount of effort to avoid it.

[Gan]

Reports are now that there are 24 in custody. The plot was being followed up on in Pakistan by British intel and after confiscating some documents, they deduced that today was a dry run for the suspected terrorists, with the actual go-live to happen in 2 days.

So the Brits were working with Pakistani authorities since most or all of the suspects detained in Britian were of Pakistani origin.

Thank goodness the press did not catch wind of this before the authorities were able to move, otherwise they would have been forewarned and possibly never caught.

This does not mean that its over though, unfortunately.

[Hulkein]

Post Count +1

You realize your post count is also increasing by 1, and your member title used to be 'He who has more posts than thou,' and you have over 10k posts, right?

[Asha]

since most or all of the suspects detained in Britian were of Pakistani origin.
Three times today I heard people in public places say very loudly, the typical British racial slur of ''fucking paki's''.
Once at work. Once in the newsagents and again walking through town.
I haven't heard that shit in some time. It's as though they think it's actually been justified now.

These people set my blood on fire.

[Parkbandit]

Thank goodness the press did not catch wind of this before the authorities were able to move, otherwise they would have been forewarned and possibly never caught.

Thankfully, not every newspaper out there is the NY Times. I wouldn't line my catbox with that rag.

[Gan]

I knew it!!!

The terrorists watched last night's episode of MythBusters and decided to try and board with excessive amounts of diet coke and mentos candy!

From this point forward all persons caught in the posession of mentos candy should be considered terrorists. /humor.

[Gan]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Terrorists were in the "final stages" of a plot to simultaneously blow up as many as 10 jets leaving Britain for the U.S., sending the planes and thousands of passengers into the Atlantic Ocean, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Thursday.

British and Pakistani authorities teamed up to thwart the attacks, and 24 men were arrested in overnight raids in Britain, authorities said.
Two of the suspects recently traveled to Pakistan and later received money wired from there, senior U.S. government sources said.
Among those arrested were a Muslim charity worker and a Heathrow Airport employee with an all-area access pass, according to Britain's Channel 4.

The suspects were planning to stage a test run within a couple of days, said a U.S. intelligence official.

The suspected terrorists had been under surveillance in Britain since last December, Channel 4 reported.

A senior congressional source said it is believed the plotters planned to mix a British sports drink with a gel-like substance to make a potent explosive that could be ignited with an MP3 player or cell phone. (Watch how news of the plot prompted rigid carry-on rules at airports -- 2:39 (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2006/08/10/mcedwards.travel.troubles.cnn','2006/08/17');))
The sports drink could be combined with a peroxide-based paste to form a potent "explosive cocktail," if properly done, said a U.S. counterterrorism official.

"There are strong reasons to believe the materials in a beverage like that could have been part of the formula," the official said.

As many as 50 people were involved in the plot, an internal Department of Homeland Security document said, and raids continued in Britain late Wednesday.

Information gathered after recent arrests in Pakistan convinced British investigators they had to act urgently to stop the plot, sources said.
Pakistani authorities also made arrests in coordination with Britain, said a spokesman for the Pakistani Foreign Ministry. He did not say how many arrests were made.

Two of the suspects left "martyrdom tapes," according to sources familiar with the details of the British investigation.

More of the story...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.security/index.html

[Skeeter]

Three times today I heard people in public places say very loudly, the typical British racial slur of ''fucking paki's''.
Once at work. Once in the newsagents and again walking through town.
I haven't heard that shit in some time. It's as though they think it's actually been justified now.

These people set my blood on fire.


The older I get, the less I think racial profiling is a bad thing.

[Sean of the Thread]

I wouldn't say racial profiling is a good thing. However.. being mindful of the right suspects is not a bad thing. The majority of the suspects just happen to be Muslim.. therefore there should be no problem with there being extra attention on them.


If the suspects were known to be "caucasians with glasses" then the extra attention/scrutiny should be on them.

[Latrinsorm]

Muslim isn't a race, and it's certainly not something you can tell by looking at someone.

If a group of Pakistani terrorists without further specification are planning a terrorist attack, it makes sense to keep an eye on Pakistani people (as if that's something that can be detected by casual observation). It does not make sense to slur an entire race regardless of the atrocities committed by a few representatives. If a laid-off Ford assembly line worker said "fuckin' krauts" after watching a Volkswagen commercial, would you be so quick to champion racial profiling (as if the two ideas are even connected!!!)?

[Skeeter]

your analogy is so bad it doesn't deserve this much of a response.

[Back]

Half the shit in this thread does not deserve a response. Who is fighting who?

[Sean of the Thread]

No it doesn't. You have to be an idiot to not comprehend my point. My example says it all.

[Back]

No it doesn't. You have to be an idiot to not comprehend my point. My example says it all.

Are you part of the solution or part of the problem?

[TheEschaton]

Well, what if you're an Indian Christian and people think you're Pakistani Muslim, like I was thought today?

What about Richard Reid (sp?) who was white, but a terrorist?

I hate racial profiling. If I was Jewish, would I have a right to be suspicious of all blond-haired, blue eyed people, assuming they were Germans, and thus Nazis out to kill me?

Edited to add:
This isn't the place for it. The loss of one life due to terrorists is as tragic as the loss of thousands.

To keep a normal sense of perspective, is this as tragic as the 20,000 people who die of hunger a day?

My feeling (and just my humble opinion), if we start working on the 20,000 a day....the thousands targetted every few years will be a little less hated.

Feel free to commence with the "OMFG, they hates our freedom!!!!!111" crap.....they hate that we consume the earth like it's our own playground their for our own sustenance and amusement.

-TheE-

[Artha]

Feel free to commence with the "OMFG, they hates our freedom!!!!!111" crap.....they hate that we consume the earth like it's our own playground their for our own sustenance and amusement.

That's ELF, not Al Qaeda.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

This whole thing makes me sad.. everything from people starving to people from some countries feeling angry/opressed/whatever enough to kill people from other countries to people from other countries being those victims.

I'm not about to start arguing over who's right, who's wrong, who deserves to die, whatever.

Life isn't fair, that's for sure. I don't know what I'd do to fix all of this.. I have ideas on where to start, but since I can't do much, voicing those are sort of a moot point. What's more important is how sad stuff like this makes me.

[Hulkein]

Well, what if you're an Indian Christian and people think you're Pakistani Muslim, like I was thought today?


Then you get extra attention.



What about Richard Reid (sp?) who was white, but a terrorist?

How many terrorists/would-be terrorists so far since, say, the first WTC bombing have been white? A handful out of a 100 or so?

No one is saying that white people should be let on with no check at all.


I hate racial profiling. If I was Jewish, would I have a right to be suspicious of all blond-haired, blue eyed people, assuming they were Germans, and thus Nazis out to kill me?

Yes, if they were still murdering your kind.

[Wezas]

Gotta say I'm leaning more towards racial profiling as well.

We're not going to catch the Richard Reid's that way, but that happens less rarely and usually with less strategy. One big exception being the Oklahoma City bombing where a cracker finally had a plan.

I may be a racist, but it seems the terrorists seem to be brown-ish.

[Hulkein]

It's not racist, it's common sense.

If 95% if the people trying to do harm on airplanes are of a certain color, then pay more attention to them. It's a taboo subject, but I really don't give a shit when it comes to the safety of people on an airplane.

[TheEschaton]

As if we don't have enough problems with race in this country, I don't need every fucking person on a plane thinking I'm a terrorist because I'm brown and I'm travelling alone and I have a beard. It was bad enough after 9/11.

-TheE-

[Hulkein]

Honestly, tough shit. Shave your beard or stfu. You feeling uncomfortable is trumped by the fact that most people trying to down planes or turn them into weapons look the same as you.

Unfortunate as it is, that's reality.

[Landrion]

To keep a normal sense of perspective, is this as tragic as the 20,000 people who die of hunger a day?

My feeling (and just my humble opinion), if we start working on the 20,000 a day....the thousands targetted every few years will be a little less hated.

Feel free to commence with the "OMFG, they hates our freedom!!!!!111" crap.....they hate that we consume the earth like it's our own playground their for our own sustenance and amusement.

-TheE-

Are you suggesting that the US does nothing to aid such starving people? Started working? To quote Riddick - Fucking insulting. I wish I had the statistics to show how many people would be dead by their own inability to stop breeding when they have no damn food, if not for this country's charity.

Hell I often wonder how the nations which hate our "imperialsm" so much would enjoy the tender mercies of the communist regime that was our opposing superpower not so long ago.

Was that close enough to OMFG they hates our freedom for you?

[Sean of the Thread]

I hate racial profiling. If I was Jewish, would I have a right to be suspicious of all blond-haired, blue eyed people, assuming they were Germans, and thus Nazis out to kill me?



Wow.. I hadn't lumped you into the retard category until just after reading that.

[Landrion]

I wouldn't say racial profiling is a good thing. However.. being mindful of the right suspects is not a bad thing. The majority of the suspects just happen to be Muslim.. therefore there should be no problem with there being extra attention on them.

If the suspects were known to be "caucasians with glasses" then the extra attention/scrutiny should be on them.

Actually, thats not so far from the case when it comes to serial killers. Male caucasians if I recall correctly. Its not a large leap of the imagination that the police bear that profile in mind when investigating.

http://www.uplink.com.au/lawlibrary/Documents/Docs/Doc5.html
"According to criminologist Eric Hickey, who has assembled the most extensive database on demography of serial murder states that, 88% of serial killers are male, 85% are Caucasian, and the average age when they claim their first victim is usually around 28.5."

[Skeeter]

As if we don't have enough problems with race in this country, I don't need every fucking person on a plane thinking I'm a terrorist because I'm brown and I'm travelling alone and I have a beard. It was bad enough after 9/11.

-TheE-

too bad your feelings get hurt. If you look like a paki terrorist I want you checked and checked closely before you get on a plane I'm on.

but I also lean towards the camp of hand searching everyone before they get on the plane, and eliminating all forms of carry-on luggage.

[Gan]

To keep a normal sense of perspective, is this as tragic as the 20,000 people who die of hunger a day?

My feeling (and just my humble opinion), if we start working on the 20,000 a day....the thousands targetted every few years will be a little less hated.

Feel free to commence with the "OMFG, they hates our freedom!!!!!111" crap.....they hate that we consume the earth like it's our own playground their for our own sustenance and amusement.

-TheE-

You've got to be kidding me.

I could take the Sam Kinneson approach and just reply...

"ITS FUCKING SAND!!!, QUIT LIVING IN THE DESERT WHERE YOU CANT EVEN GROW YOUR OWN FOOD!!!"

However, I'll just say thats about the most retarded thing I've heard you say in at least 3 threads. I understand a little of your approach since you were in the Peace Corps... however, contemplating that murder or the prevention thereof is less important than starvation or the prevention thereof is just stupid.

[TheEschaton]

That was close, Landrion. ;) The fact of the matter is, the industrial countries of the world could end hunger, and they don't. They just perpetuate a cycle of debt for third world countries, throwing them into even more harsh poverty, exacerbating the problem even more. For all the "aid" agencies like USAID gives, the conditions and terms set on that aid is such that receiving countries are harmed by it more than they benefit. So, maybe you'll be like (and this is just a guess) "OMFG, stfu, then why don't we just stop giving any aid to them?!?!??11" The answer is that many countries would prefer that - but it's not in the United States economic interests to have these countries not indebted to them. So the aid keeps coming. It's a real interesting phenomenom. Aid as control. I suggest "Diaries of an Economic Hit-Man" to supplement your knowledge on the subject.

And Xyelin, being called a retard by you, strangely, doesn't make me feel bad. It makes me laugh. Thanks. ;)

Even if I shaved my beard, Hulkein, I would still be treated poorly. I didn't have a beard after 9/11, but I still got shit for being a 20 year old brown person. The fact of the matter is that 99.9% of people my color are good people, and discriminating against that percentage for the 0.1% that are evil assholes (even if that 0.1% accounts for 90% of all terrorism against this country) is unfair, and possibly unethical/amoral. It's a slippery slope, and while I may be willing to put up with abuse for the sake of security in the case of being scrutinized extra carefully at the airport, I don't want to be walking down the street with people calling me a "fucking paki" like Nevermind illustrated. Granted, don't live in England, but still. ;)

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

too bad your feelings get hurt. If you look like a paki terrorist I want you checked and checked closely before you get on a plane I'm on.

And it's not a matter of my feelings getting hurt, it's a matter of my rights being abused and harassed everywhere I go in the name of "security".

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

In retrospect, I kind of miss the days when everyone saw me and asked me if my dad was a doctor. Perceptions of South Asians have changed quite a bit in 10 years. ;)

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

I feel bad for your situation, however, you don't get my sympathy. Unfortunately whenever something bad happens to this country, people of that race are stereotyped and racial profiling occurs. Is it fair? Not really to the people who they are profiling, but is it for the good of the nation? Yes.

I'm sure there are millions of Mexicans that are here legally and get shit because they are lumped with those that are illegal. It sucks, but as long as you cooperate and aren't a terrorist, then what's the problem? Just do as you're told and move on.

Like Carlos Mencia says, "It's your turn, puto." Blacks and hispanics have been a part of racial profiling for a really long time, and still are. Adding more to the mix is just part of the American way. :D

[El Burro]

Soooo the US gives to these countries because they expect them to pay off their debts? Good one.

[Landrion]

That was close, Landrion. ;) The fact of the matter is, the industrial countries of the world could end hunger, and they don't. They just perpetuate a cycle of debt for third world countries, throwing them into even more harsh poverty, exacerbating the problem even more. For all the "aid" agencies like USAID gives, the conditions and terms set on that aid is such that receiving countries are harmed by it more than they benefit. So, maybe you'll be like (and this is just a guess) "OMFG, stfu, then why don't we just stop giving any aid to them?!?!??11" The answer is that many countries would prefer that - but it's not in the United States economic interests to have these countries not indebted to them. So the aid keeps coming. It's a real interesting phenomenom. Aid as control. I suggest "Diaries of an Economic Hit-Man" to supplement your knowledge on the subject.
-TheE-

:-) I aim to please.

Ive saved the name Diaries of an Economic Hit-Man and will take a look for it. I must admit a thorough amount of skepticism about the company store style aid you suggest we engage in, but I admit we are not saints either.

Im not going to tell you shut the fuck up. But I am going to suggest that just possibly at least some of the things this nation does in the world are actually motivated by charity and not done with ulterior motive. Im also going to suggest that everyone needs to look to their own house. Blowing up planes doesnt fix world hunger either.

However, Im going to back off on this having read that youve worked in the peace corps. Youve walked more walk than I have on charity so Ill respect that.

[TheEschaton]

feel bad for your situation, however, you don't get my sympathy. Unfortunately whenever something bad happens to this country, people of that race are stereotyped and racial profiling occurs. Is it fair? Not really to the people who they are profiling, but is it for the good of the nation? Yes.

I'm sure there are millions of Mexicans that are here legally and get shit because they are lumped with those that are illegal. It sucks, but as long as you cooperate and aren't a terrorist, then what's the problem? Just do as you're told and move on.


The whole "if you're innocent then just do as you're told" thing doesn't fly with me. I don't carry illegal drugs (or anything illegal) in my car, but if a cop pulled me over, and wanted to search my car for no reason (IE, I wasn't drunk, or driving erratically), I sure as hell wouldn't let him, even if there was nothing for him to find. I hope everyone here would be the same.

It's the principle of the fucking thing, man.

And yes, the U.S. (and other members of the world) use loans from the IMF and World Bank to perpetuate 3rd World Debt. Why do you think most activists advocate relieving 3rd World Debt as one of the first steps in the fight against poverty and hunger? And why do you think the 1st world is so dead-set against it. If it's really aid, why do you make them pay it back? If it's a loan, and you don't need the money more than they need the money, why don't you just give it outright? There are never "no strings attached". It doesn't exist in the eco-political world of state politics.

Edited to change "was drunk" to "wasn't drunk".

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

Did I say Diaries of an Economic Hitman? I meant Confessions of an Economic Hitman. It's an insider account of what goes on in the world of international economics and aid.

-TheE-

[Wezas]

88% of serial killers are male, 85% are Caucasian, and the average age when they claim their first victim is usually around 28.5.

If it helped our nation's security by me being searched every time I get on a plane, then so be it. It's not like you're flying every day.

God damn, I need to kill some people.

Technically I'm 28.58 years old, past my prime.

[Landrion]

The whole "if you're innocent then just do as you're told" thing doesn't fly with me. I don't carry illegal drugs (or anything illegal) in my car, but if a cop pulled me over, and wanted to search my car for no reason (IE, I wasn't drunk, or driving erratically), I sure as hell wouldn't let him, even if there was nothing for him to find. I hope everyone here would be the same.

It's the principle of the fucking thing, man.

-TheE-

Actually, from a strategic point of view that is precisely the wrong way to handle cops. Instead act calm and be compliant within reason. Being resistant gives them the message that you do have something to hide and escalates the situation. Get snotty and many will go out of their way to mess with you.

Theres no principle in wasting both your own and the officer's time.

[Landrion]

Did I say Diaries of an Economic Hitman? I meant Confessions of an Economic Hitman. It's an insider account of what goes on in the world of international economics and aid.

-TheE-

Noted.

[Gan]

Being resistant in the above analagy gives the officer probable cause to search.

Thats not to say you're without remedy after the fact, but during the search you might as well do as your told. Having an authority complex will do you no good.

Edited to add:

Be acutely aware that the officer has more intimate knowledge of the law, since thats his job, than the average joe citizen unless joe happens to be a lawyer.

Its within you right to ask if the officer has a warrant to search, if he states probable cause then you'll have to wait until you can hire legal representation in order to take the officer/agency to court. Going to jail over an illegal search will only add personal charges against you from interferring with the search, etc.

There's a fine line between being politically correct and being strategic in the application and apprehension of criminals. Its not like there are rules by which all criminals must abide by with regards to how they dress, act, and operate. And expecting perfect results from police agencies that have been handicapped by political correctness is illogical.

[ElanthianSiren]

Actually, from a strategic point of view that is precisely the wrong way to handle cops. Instead act calm and be compliant within reason. Being resistant gives them the message that you do have something to hide and escalates the situation. Get snotty and many will go out of their way to mess with you.

Theres no principle in wasting both your own and the officer's time.


Strategic, yes maybe, but if I'm innocent, I don't care if I waste the cop's time because they have wasted mine.

I'm in TheE's camp on this one. I'd never allow a search without a warrant on principle, though I know that there are some here whose opinions differ on the matter. I'm not big on giving up my constitutional freedoms, when they're a big part of what makes us one of the best countries in the world.

-M

[CrystalTears]

The whole "if you're innocent then just do as you're told" thing doesn't fly with me. I don't carry illegal drugs (or anything illegal) in my car, but if a cop pulled me over, and wanted to search my car for no reason (IE, I wasn't drunk, or driving erratically), I sure as hell wouldn't let him, even if there was nothing for him to find. I hope everyone here would be the same.

It's the principle of the fucking thing, man.

People with common sense who don't have something to prove know that they should just comply now, bitch later. Resisting the authority is the wrong way to approach anything.

And spare me the "they don't deserve my respect, they have to earn it" garbage because you still have to respect the law and they are the ones who uphold those laws, whether you like them or not.


I'd never allow a search without a warrant on principle, though I know that there are some here whose opinions differ on the matter. I'm not big on giving up my constitutional freedoms, when they're a big part of what makes us one of the best countries in the world.

It's not an opinion thing. People who resist arrest or a search when asked cause problems for them and may result in your arrest. Just comply and afterwards you can press charges and accomplish more. If they hear that you didn't comply, you only hurt yourself really. You may still argue the fact, but it won't work as well for resisting to help law enforcement.

[Landrion]

If it helped our nation's security by me being searched every time I get on a plane, then so be it. It's not like you're flying every day.

God damn, I need to kill some people.

Technically I'm 28.58 years old, past my prime.

Yeah I hear you there (about the security rather than the killing). I dont take it as a personal insult when authority figures are doing something that ultimately protects my own security. Ive had my bags searched, items questioned (as a diabetic I carry needles around so you can imagine how comfortable that makes baggage checkers), been pulled over for nothing. Whats the difference? I havent been harmed or degraded.

[Kefka]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060810/pl_afp/britainattacksairline_060810185330

Snow said Bush first learned in detail about the plot on Friday, and received two detailed briefings on it on Saturday and Sunday, as well as had two conversations about it with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

But a senior White House official said that the British government had not launched its raid until well after Cheney held a highly unusual conference call with reporters to attack the Democrats as weak against terrorism.

An aide to Lieberman, who would have been one of the first Democrats to hear of the plot because he is the top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security Committee, said the lawmaker first heard of it late Wednesday.


....hold on, they sat on this information for political gain?

[Celephais]

If the suspects were known to be "caucasians with glasses" then the extra attention/scrutiny should be on them.

Fucking Cauwgs, driving there cars claiming they're as good as us, if it weren't for affirmative action I wouldn't have to worry about them on the roads causing accidents all like "I left my glasses at home", pfff, what's worse is this surgery, this "lasik", they have now so they can blend in with the rest of normal seeing society, makes me sick.

Erm... anyway, I agree that what with limited resources, and the inability to scrutinize everyone, they need to be selective, getting your bag sifted through sucks, but if you have nothing suspicious, you shouldn't miss your flight...

I get racial profiled all the time, I'm Irish, so everyone assumes I drink a lot (and it's true, see!)

[ElanthianSiren]

-But if you're innocent, how can they arrest you for anything? Honestly, if govnt came to search my house, there wouldn't be a damn thing they could arrest me for, whether or not I demanded they get a warrant. I find the idea of saying "If you ask for a warrant, you will cause problems for yourself" kind of funny because the same people who argue such a principle do so on the grounds that we should trust law enforcement implicitly, when their reasoning shows an implicit DISTRUST of law enforcement.

I'd challenge you to find a situation where an innocent person saying, "Please get a warrant before you search my vehicle/premises" resulted in their automatic arrest without disciplinary action against the officers involved.

-M

[Gan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060810/pl_afp/britainattacksairline_060810185330

Snow said Bush first learned in detail about the plot on Friday, and received two detailed briefings on it on Saturday and Sunday, as well as had two conversations about it with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

But a senior White House official said that the British government had not launched its raid until well after Cheney held a highly unusual conference call with reporters to attack the Democrats as weak against terrorism.

An aide to Lieberman, who would have been one of the first Democrats to hear of the plot because he is the top Democrat on the Senate Homeland Security Committee, said the lawmaker first heard of it late Wednesday.


....hold on, they sat on this information for political gain?


OMG dont make me break out my conspiracy hat again.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Landrion]

Strategic, yes maybe, but if I'm innocent, I don't care if I waste the cop's time because they have wasted mine.

I'm in TheE's camp on this one. I'd never allow a search without a warrant on principle, though I know that there are some here whose opinions differ on the matter. I'm not big on giving up my constitutional freedoms, when they're a big part of what makes us one of the best countries in the world.

-M

Well from what I can find you are absolutely within your rights to do so. And it is certainly not unheard of for officers to keep "drop guns" or "evidence" to plant in the middle of a search.

http://www.prairielaw.com/articles/article.asp?channelid=8&articleid=1379
http://www.nolo.com/resource.cfm/catID/268BB6A8-8884-4677-89869B6AD8A75ADA/104/143/127/

Now personally, Ive been pulled over somewhere shy of a dozen times and never been searched. Id have to think about whether Id agree or not. What I am advising is NOT to give the officer sass or attitude. And never, ever refuse if they ask you to get out of the car.

[Gan]

-But if you're innocent, how can they arrest you for anything? Honestly, if govnt came to search my house, there wouldn't be a damn thing they could arrest me for, whether or not I demanded they get a warrant. I find the idea of saying "If you ask for a warrant, you will cause problems for yourself" kind of funny because the same people who argue such a principle do so on the grounds that we should trust law enforcement implicitly, when their reasoning shows an implicit DISTRUST of law enforcement.

I'd challenge you to find a situation where an innocent person saying, "Please get a warrant before you search my vehicle/premises" resulted in their automatic arrest without disciplinary action against the officers involved.

-M

Scenario:

Officer: Step out of the car ma'am. I need to search your vehicle.
Lady: Do you have a warrant?
Officer: I have probable cause, please step out of the vehicle or you will be arrested for interfering with official police business.
Lady: No, you dont have a warrant.
Officer: <Drags lady out of the car>
Lady: <Hits officer upside the head with her purse>
Officer: <Arrests lady for interferring with official business, refusal to obey a lawful order from the police officer, resisting arrest, and striking an officer>
Officer: <takes lady to jail, impounds car>

Trial ensues. Guessing the result is up to you. However, it still does not negate the fact that you could have sat there 10 minutes while the officer did his duty, or you could have sat 24 to 72 hours in jail waiting on bail and to see the judge.

[ElanthianSiren]

Yeah I hear you there (about the security rather than the killing). I dont take it as a personal insult when authority figures are doing something that ultimately protects my own security. Ive had my bags searched, items questioned (as a diabetic I carry needles around so you can imagine how comfortable that makes baggage checkers), been pulled over for nothing. Whats the difference? I havent been harmed or degraded.


Wow, another juvenile diabetic in the crowd. Hi! The difference here is that airlines are private companies. I totally expect their scrutiny when I have to carry needles (I do too). No problem with it either, if I plan to fly. Usually, I opt to take Amtrak instead, where I'm not hassled.

-M

[ElanthianSiren]

Well from what I can find you are absolutely within your rights to do so. And it is certainly not unheard of for officers to keep "drop guns" or "evidence" to plant in the middle of a search.

http://www.prairielaw.com/articles/article.asp?channelid=8&articleid=1379
http://www.nolo.com/resource.cfm/catID/268BB6A8-8884-4677-89869B6AD8A75ADA/104/143/127/

Now personally, Ive been pulled over somewhere shy of a dozen times and never been searched. Id have to think about whether Id agree or not. What I am advising is NOT to give the officer sass or attitude. And never, ever refuse if they ask you to get out of the car.

Totally agree. I'm talking about exercising your rights, not being billigerent (sp?)

-M

[Miss X]

If the police pull me over and want to search my car or me because they have "probably cause", they better damn well explain what that probable cause is or I'm gonna have to be dragged out kicking and screaming.

It's about civil rights, you can't search people just because they are from a specific ethnic group etc. It has to be the same rule for everyone.

[Hulkein]

If the police pull me over and want to search my car or me because they have "probably cause", they better damn well explain what that probable cause is or I'm gonna have to be dragged out kicking and screaming.

It's about civil rights, you can't search people just because they are from a specific ethnic group etc. It has to be the same rule for everyone.

You're using an example from a car and applying it to the practice of racial profiling when boarding a plane.

Entirely different, for obvious reasons.

[DeV]

I'm with ES and TheE on this one. I would politely decline allowing a vehicle search, and I'd be well within my right to do so, until a warrant was obtained. You would not get arrested for doing so unless of course you were a dumbass and had illegal contraband in your vehicle once the search warrant was obtain and a search ensued.

While I do think the manner in which some brown-skinned people are treated at airports borderlines blatant racial profiling, I think it is very necessary especially right now. It happens all the time at airports anyway whether readily recognized or not.

[CrystalTears]

Well racial profiling can happen at any time, either in your car, getting on a plane, walking to the store. It doesn't matter and her example would apply. I don't agree with it, but it applies.

[ElanthianSiren]

With regard to planes, I've been searched, wand searched etc. You can't really object to it, since when you buy your ticket to fly on their air craft, you sign away your constitutional right to object to searches (I think it's in the fine print on the inside lower half of the ticket jacket). It's like when you sign your child up for public school, there's always a clause saying that their lockers/person can be searched, which trumps constitutionality when signed.

Profiling is always going to happen. Pretty much every time I flew, I was wand searched, which was just fine. I'm going to dress how I like, and if they think I'm a terrorist they can waste their time searching me, as I contracted to agree to it in purchasing the ticket.

That said, I wouldn't fly right now, due to the liquid ban. The last two flights I was on had cut beverage service, and when I don't drink quality water in general, (usually bring some Fiji to fly), my kidneys start to hurt and pound, and I start getting very irritable. I'd definitely rather take the train right now.

-M

[Stanley Burrell]

I feel more comfortable taking a plane when the level of security is the way THAT IT ACTUALLY SHOULD BE (post 9/11-2001, planet Earth.)

I would feel more comfortable being asked to take off my shoes and be subjected to full rectal examination w/ my baggage being zapped with radioactive scans on all eleven dimensions.

This is all IMHO, it's not to say that X amount of global behind the scenes action takes place, but a physical show when the Arab world isn't trying to asplode everyone wouldn't hurt as much as being vaporized at 15,000 feet.

Once again, two ¢'s.

[Gan]

I'm glad I'm not flying as part of my JOB anymore.

In fact, I wonder if I can still get a decent purcahse price for all of my airmiles...

hmmmm.

[Landrion]

Wow, another juvenile diabetic in the crowd. Hi! The difference here is that airlines are private companies. I totally expect their scrutiny when I have to carry needles (I do too). No problem with it either, if I plan to fly. Usually, I opt to take Amtrak instead, where I'm not hassled.
-M

Hiya, I wish I could say we belonged to a better club :-),

[Gan]

The original information about the plan came from the Muslim community in Britain, according to a British intelligence official.

The tip resulted from a person who had been concerned about the activities of an acquaintance after the July 7, 2005, terror attacks in London, the official said.

:clap:




More of the article here:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot/index.html

[Sean]

Whats more commonly used in acts of terrorism? Cars or planes?

[Stanley Burrell]

Whats more commonly used in acts of terrorism? Cars or planes?

Both (in the case that they are laden with Al Qaeda operatives.) Har!

[Kefka]

Gotta admit, there are more car bombings than planes blowing up.

[Sean of the Thread]

And it's not a matter of my feelings getting hurt, it's a matter of my rights being abused and harassed everywhere I go in the name of "security".

-TheE-

listen asshole.. if you fit the description you're gonna be searched by security. Your civil rights are not being violated because you happen to look the same as 99.9% of all fucking terrorists. Get over it.. boo fucking hoo.

If some ignorant dickhead on the street is giving you shit then man up and jack him in the throat.. he'll shut right the fuck up.

As far as calling you a retard.. can you honestly defend your garbage nazi analogy? Give me a fucking break.

[ElanthianSiren]

:clap:




More of the article here:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot/index.html


Sounds like what happened here in FL a little while ago.

-M

[Sean of the Thread]

The whole "if you're innocent then just do as you're told" thing doesn't fly with me. I don't carry illegal drugs (or anything illegal) in my car, but if a cop pulled me over, and wanted to search my car for no reason (IE, I wasn't drunk, or driving erratically), I sure as hell wouldn't let him, even if there was nothing for him to find.
-TheE-

Just fucking show some courtesy and comply to a search just like every other law abiding and considerate citizen.

[Sean]

listen asshole.. if you fit the description you're gonna be searched by security. Your civil rights are not being violated because you happen to look the same as 99.9% of all fucking terrorists. Get over it.. boo fucking hoo.

If some ignorant dickhead on the street is giving you shit then man up and jack him in the throat.. he'll shut right the fuck up.

As far as calling you a retard.. can you honestly defend your garbage nazi analogy? Give me a fucking break.

You know you look kinda similar to Timothy McVeigh ....

[Hulkein]

Gotta admit, there are more car bombings than planes blowing up.

Not in America, and cars don't deliver the same devestating effects economically, mentally and physically as planes do.

You blow up a 8 planes over the Atlantic, people won't fly. That hurts a lot of other things in addition to around 1000 lives being lost.

[Sean of the Thread]

If the police pull me over and want to search my car or me because they have "probably cause", they better damn well explain what that probable cause is or I'm gonna have to be dragged out kicking and screaming.

It's about civil rights, you can't search people just because they are from a specific ethnic group etc. It has to be the same rule for everyone.


Bullshit. Besides getting off topic with the whole car issue if you look like a fucking Muslim .. of which the terrorists for the most part look like.. expect extra scrutiny. If I'm the officer at the airport I'm going to scrutinize the Pakistani looking mother fucker before the grey haired bitch in the wheel chair behind him in line.

If terrorists were smart they'd start dressing up as old white ladies in wheel chairs.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm with ES and TheE on this one. I would politely decline allowing a vehicle search, and I'd be well within my right to do so, until a warrant was obtained. You would not get arrested for doing so unless of course you were a dumbass and had illegal contraband in your vehicle once the search warrant was obtain and a search ensued.

While I do think the manner in which some brown-skinned people are treated at airports borderlines blatant racial profiling, I think it is very necessary especially right now. It happens all the time at airports anyway whether readily recognized or not.


Guarantee that MOST of the time you would be searched anyways.

[Sean of the Thread]

Well racial profiling can happen at any time, either in your car, getting on a plane, walking to the store. It doesn't matter and her example would apply. I don't agree with it, but it applies.


It doesn't apply because watching for MUSLIM TERRORIST SUSPECTS is not racial profiling. People are way off base.

[Skirmisher]

You're using an example from a car and applying it to the practice of racial profiling when boarding a plane.

Entirely different, for obvious reasons.

But I thought that was the example being discussed with Siren et al.

Perhaps i confused the two.

I also would politely as possible refuse to consent to a search of my auto as is my right.

If they searched it anyway without a warrant or my consent I would not struggle then, but instead happily enjoy my lawsuit winnings while vacationing on some sunny beach a little later is all.

[Sean of the Thread]

You know you look kinda similar to Timothy McVeigh ....

Were 24 people that look similar to Timothy McVeigh arrested for a terror plot in London this week?

[Sean]

No but I think its pretty obvious that this whole thread has strayed from what happened the other day and into whether or not it's acceptable to profile based on race/religion based on terrorist attacks.

[DeV]

Guarantee that MOST of the time you would be searched anyways.All the better since I told them no in the first place. Win-win for me.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah you're right. Her case wouldn't be racial profiling, as her race isn't being discriminated against. The car search tangent kinda confused me. My bad!

[Sean of the Thread]

and when I don't drink quality water in general, (usually bring some Fiji to fly), my kidneys start to hurt and pound
-M


Your kidney's are starting to pound due to lack of arsenic.. You're better off getting a Dupont or Brita filter bringing that along.



CLEVELAND -- An advertisement slams Cleveland, but the joke may be on a bottled water company instead.

The battle of the bottled water puts water from Fiji vs. Lake Erie.

The ads for Fiji Water sold around the world proclaim that "The label says Fiji because it's not bottled in Cleveland."

The back of the bottle contains information about trade winds purifying island water -- water not affected by acid rain and other pollutants.

NewsChannel5 learned the ad was tough to swallow for the Cleveland Water Department, which did its own water analysis.

Officials said their test results showed Cleveland's treated drinking water is better quality than Fiji Water. They said Fiji Water had the highest levels of arsenic and other contaminants.

NewsChannel5 held a blind taste test.

"I never had Fiji Water. I thought Cleveland was much more refreshing," one tennis player said.

The taste testers preferred Cleveland water.

"Just not as good as I thought it would be and not worth the price," one man said.

Fiji president Edward Cochran said his company's tests have found much lower levels of arsenic in Fiji Water than Cleveland did. He questions the validity of the city's study, saying it was not an independent test.



rofl SUCKER

[Hulkein]

But I thought that was the example being discussed with Siren et al.

Perhaps i confused the two.

I also would politely as possible refuse to consent to a search of my auto as is my right.

If they searched it anyway without a warrant or my consent I would not struggle then, but instead happily enjoy my lawsuit winnings while vacationing on some sunny beach a little later is all.

I was talking to Miss X, not you Skirm. I have no problem with people not just allowing a search of a car for no good reason, my mom is one of those people who very much appreciates her right to refuse search without a warrant or real justification.

It was just weird how she went from that to talking about civil rights on a plane like they were the same situation.

[Sean of the Thread]

All the better since I told them no in the first place. Win-win for me.

more like a Lose/Lose for you.

No.. They'll "create" probable cause.. ie.. smell of alcohol..which can easily be defended. I've refused search a dozen times and ended up being searched half of those. I've also had my car searched for just having a properly reported and stored firearm on my person or car. Oh fucking well. If they're uncomfortable then it's fine by me.. i'm not a criminal. One mistake and their family doesn't havn't a Father/Husband.

C'mon you know enough law enforcement peep to know that shit goes down every day all day.

[Sean of the Thread]

No but I think its pretty obvious that this whole thread has strayed from what happened the other day and into whether or not it's acceptable to profile based on race/religion based on terrorist attacks.


If the profile of the suspects is race/religion based then I guess paying attention to the right suspects is gonna result in those people being scrutinized more. Oh fucking well.

[Sean of the Thread]

It was just weird how she went from that to talking about civil rights on a plane like they were the same situation.


CIVIL RIGHTS ON A MUTHA FUCKING PLANE!?!?!?!?

[Wezas]

I believe TheE brought up the car searching scenario first.

[Latrinsorm]

And yes, the U.S. (and other members of the world) use loans from the IMF and World Bank to perpetuate 3rd World Debt.Then how come we just forgave like eleventy bajillion dollars worth?
....hold on, they sat on this information for political gain?I'm pretty sure they sat on it because nobody wanted to be the next Geraldo; by which I mean nobody wanted to tip off the terrorists-to-be. Now that everyone knows about it, Bush is using it for political gain. Specifically, he appears to be reminding everyone that terrorists are still around, so other politicians (apparently Democrats?) who weren't so vehemently anti-terror look reckless. Attacking politicans (even smelly Dems) isn't an especially good thing to do, but I don't think the case can rationally be made that the sitting was for political gain.

Racism is still stupid, as is the idea that so-called "fucking Muslims" can be spotted by looking at them. There are Muslims of every color, and (more importantly) there are terrorists of every color. Didn't 9/11 teach us that something not happening before doesn't mean it's not going to happen now? Do the proponents of "Muslim"-profiling want us to wait until a crew of clean-cut white guys (or white-haired grannies) hijack an American plane for security to check them?

[Sean]

If the profile of the suspects is race/religion based then I guess paying attention to the right suspects is gonna result in those people being scrutinized more. Oh fucking well.

If I recall correctly, the intial profile for the Oklahoma City Bombings was fundamentalists muslims...

[CrystalTears]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling


Some groups also argue that police who focus their limited attention on one racial group allow criminals from other racial groups to go free. In the days immediately following the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, law enforcement spent a disproportionate amount of time and resources on two men of middle eastern descent. It turned out that this terrorist attack was perpetrated by a white male; if the terrorist had planned more than one attack, the waste of limited resources invesigating men of middle eastern descent could have cost lives.

[Sean of the Thread]

Blame the media.

[Sean of the Thread]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling

Yup.. also let's not forget

"Within 90 minutes of the explosion Timothy McVeigh, a Gulf War veteran, was arrested, travelling north out of Oklahoma City on Interstate 35"

[ElanthianSiren]

Fiji president Edward Cochran said his company's tests have found much lower levels of arsenic in Fiji Water than Cleveland did. He questions the validity of the city's study, saying it was not an independent test.


Sounds like one survey that the parent company has claimed is bias (aka still disputed). Also, I get fiji for 1.00 a bottle, so I'd dispute the price claim that makes it sound like it costs 5.00 a litre. Further, I find it more refreshing, and it has magnesium and calcium in it, something that diabetics notoriously lack (esp magnesium). -To each their own though.

-M

[Sean of the Thread]

Mmmm Arsenic. Hell for 14.95 you can come to your own conclusion despite what the parent company says. Let me know the results.. I'm curious.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/wdxcyberstore_1898_1685670

[DeV]

more like a Lose/Lose for you.Win-win for me, imo, because my opinion on this is way more important to me than yours regarding my refusal of a search of my car without warrant. Also like you said, " C'mon you know enough law enforcement peep to know that shit goes down every day all day." You're right, and I also know that I've never been in that situation and hope it remains that way. I'd refuse regardless of what you say so stop wasting your time.


They'll "create" probable cause..rofl, sure sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I doubt they'd go to such measures and hope I'll never have to find out.

[Sean]

Yup.. also let's not forget

"Within 90 minutes of the explosion Timothy McVeigh, a Gulf War veteran, was arrested, travelling north out of Oklahoma City on Interstate 35"

For something unrelated.

[Sean of the Thread]

rofl, sure sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I doubt they'd go to such measures and hope I'll never have to find out.


Happened to me as a teenager several times. I'm sure it's just as common all over the place.

[DeV]

Maybe you fit a certain profile. Oh well, you dealt with it. Kudos.

[Jolena]

If I recall correctly, the intial profile for the Oklahoma City Bombings was fundamentalists muslims...

You'd be correct. Initially, after the bombing, the government flew into action assuming that it was fundamentalist muslims and immediately began arresting those of mid-eastern decent who fit the profile of such types. Only afterwards did they realize their folly and release said 'suspects' to arrest McVeigh and others.

[Jolena]

Yup.. also let's not forget

"Within 90 minutes of the explosion Timothy McVeigh, a Gulf War veteran, was arrested, travelling north out of Oklahoma City on Interstate 35"

He was not arrested for anything connected to the bombing, though. It was just luck that he got arrested for something unrelated and was still in custody when they figured out the truth of the bombing.

[TheEschaton]

People with common sense who don't have something to prove know that they should just comply now, bitch later. Resisting the authority is the wrong way to approach anything.

This is where we choose to disagree then. I don't automatically cede my rights with the hope that some bitching later will rectify the error.

And uh, no, if there's no probable cause, the officer has no right to search your car. And if you ask him "Why?" and he says "Probable Cause", you have the right to ask what the probable cause is. If he says, "I can smell alcohol on your breath", you have the right to take a field breathalyzer and/or a field sobriety test.

That cop, if he searched my car, without me doing anything to warrant suspicion, after I repeated did not consent, would feel my fury in the court room.

And "resisting a search" is NOT the same as "resisting arrest", since the latter is supposed to be based on the idea that there is some proof of you being connected to a crime. "Resisting a search" is part of your 4th Amendment rights.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

I suppose I didn't consider in my car search analogy that the car is my property, whereas I cede my rights on a plane when I board it, as it's not my plane. Fair 'nough.

However, I do dislike the fact that the when black people don't trust white people, or Arabs don't trust westerners, people scream "How can these people hate us?!?!??!11", but when white people don't like those two groups, it's justifiable, for their security. I mean, I'd be willing to wager white people have killed more blacks and Arabs individually than the two groups combined have killed white people.

-TheE-

[Hulkein]

If I recall correctly, the intial profile for the Oklahoma City Bombings was fundamentalists muslims...

Great. How many white terrorists have there been as opposed to middle-eastern looking terrorists since then?

Nobody is saying ONLY MUSLIMS EVER DO TERRORIST ACTS, DON'T EVEN SEARCH WHITE PEOPLE! You're pointing out the obvious, and it has no bearing on whether or not there should be racial profiling in airports.

[CrystalTears]

Not sure where you're going with that, TheE, but it's not going in a good direction.

There are other races afraid of muslims/arabs/middle east people right now, not just white people.

[Makkah]

Yea... this is straying dangerously close to some all-out racial flaming...

[Sean of the Thread]

However, I do dislike the fact that the when black people don't trust white people, or Arabs don't trust westerners, people scream "How can these people hate us?!?!??!11", but when white people don't like those two groups, it's justifiable, for their security. I mean, I'd be willing to wager white people have killed more blacks and Arabs individually than the two groups combined have killed white people.

-TheE-


Holy shit. You're on a roll.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I'd just like to say there are exceptions to the current profiling going on right now, but people need to use some common sense in discrediting it.

Yeah, the IRA wasn't fundamentalist Muslim! Neither were a few lone-wolf bombing/murder cases.. but given what we know about 9-11 and "Project Bojinka" (which was startlingly similar to the current issue in regards to the massive jet attack) it's relatively safe to say that we have a target demographic to look at that isn't pissed off Irish men and white neo-nazi serial killers. If you think we should start pulling out red-headed men and skinny white young men who look like they spend a little too much time at home instead of people in the target demographic.. heh, that makes me laugh.

[Jolena]

I think perhaps what TheE is saying is that instead of just targetting certain races/religions, we should be upping security in general, searching everyone that boards a plane with such thoroughness, and not just a select few. If the terrorists have any sort of intelligence whatsoever they will catch on very quickly that only those of their race are being searched and start employing other racial types. Not a difficult stretch of the imagination really.

Upping security and thoroughly searching everyone that boards a plane would cover all bases, leaving no feasible loophole for someone. It would be a pain in the ass, surely, but I'd be willing to go through it in order to prevent a switch-a-roo tactic that I am sure they will start doing soon as racial profiling becomes more and more prominent.

[Sean of the Thread]

Upping security and thoroughly searching everyone that boards a plane would cover all bases, leaving no feasible loophole for someone. It would be a pain in the ass, surely, but I'd be willing to go through it in order to prevent a switch-a-roo tactic that I am sure they will start doing soon as racial profiling becomes more and more prominent.

I'd be down for that if it's logistically and economically feasible.

[Back]

I think perhaps what TheE is saying is that instead of just targetting certain races/religions, we should be upping security in general, searching everyone that boards a plane with such thoroughness, and not just a select few. If the terrorists have any sort of intelligence whatsoever they will catch on very quickly that only those of their race are being searched and start employing other racial types. Not a difficult stretch of the imagination really.

Upping security and thoroughly searching everyone that boards a plane would cover all bases, leaving no feasible loophole for someone. It would be a pain in the ass, surely, but I'd be willing to go through it in order to prevent a switch-a-roo tactic that I am sure they will start doing soon as racial profiling becomes more and more prominent.

I totally agree. Imagine if we had put all the money into national security that we have put into Iraq how much better off we would have been?

I mean, right now everyone is focused on airline flights, but I don’t see anything happening as far as subways, busses, trains, boats and the list goes on. Racial profiling is the worst way to try to secure our country and in fact does not make it our country anymore if we do.

[Artha]

Not a difficult stretch of the imagination really.
How much do you have to pay someone to be a suicide bomber?

[Jolena]

I agree that we should have put more emphasis on national security than we did, however it is gone and past, there is nothing we as a country can do now but to better prepare for our future to prevent such a thing happening again. Its a very logical and emotionless way to look at this, I realize, but its truthful. No good will come of continuing to harp and sling mud in the issue of the past and 9/11, as everyone is fully aware that were security better, this would not have happened. The best we can do is learn from that huge and horrific mistake and take precautions based on what we know now.

That being said, you are right, there should be focus on other modes of transportation aside from airline flights and I personally believe that there is, just not to the media magnitude that we are seeing on airlines. We have to remember, the media is going to show us just what they believe we need to see, which is better airline security. They are not going to hype up the added security of trains, busses, subways or boats until it becomes profitable for them to do so or the government makes a huge announcement about those improvements. That does not necessarily mean it isn't being done. The mass transit bombings in London were one example that I could think of where I'm sure more precautions have been taken to prevent this from happening again, though perhaps not on the same scale as airlines.

I honestly believe that in order to fully shut down or at the very least highly discourage terrorists from attempting such a mass threat as in these past few years, we must stop profiling and start making a general sweep of security in all areas. Is it costly? Hell yes. I for one, would gladly take an extra half hour to do all of my daily activities involving transportation and other areas of threat by terrorists for heightened security measures, than to constantly be concerned that one area is being looked at while they slip in from the shadows in an area we neglect.

[TheEschaton]

You keep on seeming to think that radical muslims are only Middle Eastern. John Walker Lindh, anyone? He didn't even need any money to join the Taliban.

-TheE-

[Jolena]

How much do you have to pay someone to be a suicide bomber?

You know, I started not to respond but then decided perhaps my wording was confusing. When I said employed, I did not mean paid, though paying the family of one of these bombers is not without consideration. What I meant by employ is to use someone else. It is not impossible to find someone of another skin color/race to do their dirty work, I'm sure.

[Artha]

You keep on seeming to think that radical muslims are only Middle Eastern. John Walker Lindh, anyone? He didn't even need any money to join the Taliban.
Not only, but certainly predominently. I think that much, at least, is indisputable.



You know, I started not to respond but then decided perhaps my wording was confusing. When I said employed, I did not mean paid, though paying the family of one of these bombers is not without consideration. What I meant by employ is to use someone else. It is not impossible to find someone of another skin color/race to do their dirty work, I'm sure.
My point was that I bet it's extremely difficult to find someone willing to kill themselves for your cause. These guys only do it because they're raised believing in a martyr's wonderful afterlife. Being limited to only non-middle eastern fundamentalist muslims certainly cuts down the number of prospective candidates.

[Back]

I live in DC and take the Metro to work. You would not believe how lax the security is for one of this countries most likely targets. Someone really needs to get on the ball and make one of those large pedestrian x-ray screens like from Total Recall.

[Sean]

Great. How many white terrorists have there been as opposed to middle-eastern looking terrorists since then?

Nobody is saying ONLY MUSLIMS EVER DO TERRORIST ACTS, DON'T EVEN SEARCH WHITE PEOPLE! You're pointing out the obvious, and it has no bearing on whether or not there should be racial profiling in airports.

It has everything to do with racial profiling in airports or anywhere else. Its also one of the few areas where you'll find me in agreement with Latrinsorm.

[Sean of the Thread]

I live in DC and take the Metro to work. You would not believe how lax the security is for one of this countries most likely targets. Someone really needs to get on the ball and make one of those large pedestrian x-ray screens like from Total Recall.

You think it's lax but it's just not visible.

X-ray screens.??. you guys are screaming about being searched for an officer's saftey on the side of a road let alone Total Recall and it's original three nipple awesomeness.

[TheEschaton]

Three nipples FTW...


"Damn, I think I need more hands..."

-TheE-

[Back]

You think it's lax but it's just not visible.

X-ray screens.??. you guys are screaming about being searched for an officer's saftey on the side of a road let alone Total Recall and it's original three nipple awesomeness.

Wow, amazing how you know that without even ever having set foot on our subway system.

And just who are you guys?

And and I make a suggestion to make our nation more secure (albeit far-fetched) and your first reaction is to rip me for it?

You’re such a clown!

[Sean]

You think it's lax but it's just not visible.

X-ray screens.??. you guys are screaming about being searched for an officer's saftey on the side of a road let alone Total Recall and it's original three nipple awesomeness.

Eh it's all about what makes you feel safe, not what actually is safe.

[Sean of the Thread]

Wow, amazing how you know that without even ever having set foot on our subway system.

And just who are you guys?

And and I make a suggestion to make our nation more secure (albeit far-fetched) and your first reaction is to rip me for it?

You’re such a clown!

Overeact much nutzoid. Chew on a prozac or take a scientology course.. I didn't rip you. And "you guys" know who you guys are. Most likely the people in this thread who are freaking over routine searches.

[Latrinsorm]

If you think we should start pulling out red-headed men and skinny white young men who look like they spend a little too much time at home instead of people in the target demographic.. heh, that makes me laugh.Will you be laughing as hard when a white person who was passed over for a "random" search in favor of a "Muslim-lookin' furriner" flies a plane into the Empire State Building? I don't really get the joke of people getting brutally murdered, which is why I ask. Even if 99.9% of terrorists are "Muslim-looking", letting that white/African/Indonesian .1% through is an absolutely unacceptable success rate.
How much do you have to pay someone to be a suicide bomber?There are plenty of Chinese Muslims. Crazy people are everywhere.

[Sean of the Thread]

Yes latrin.. Police detectives looking for a bank robber should just start randomly investigating citizens rather than basing it on the profile of the suspects.

[Daniel]

Funny you bring it up Backlash. I just took the Metro to go to my local veterans of foreign wars chapter, which incidently is right next to capitol hill and there were literally cops every 6 feet on the rail platform.

[Back]

Funny you bring it up Backlash. I just took the Metro to go to my local veterans of foreign wars chapter, which incidently is right next to capitol hill and there were literally cops every 6 feet on the rail platform.

With our terror alert level at red, I’m not surprised. I go to South Capitol every Tuesday night except last Tuesday and I haven’t seen one officer yet.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Will you be laughing as hard when a white person who was passed over for a "random" search in favor of a "Muslim-lookin' furriner" flies a plane into the Empire State Building? I don't really get the joke of people getting brutally murdered, which is why I ask. Even if 99.9% of terrorists are "Muslim-looking", letting that white/African/Indonesian .1% through is an absolutely unacceptable success rate.

Given the demographic of EVERYBODY that so far has been arrested in links to these plots, Police and Authorities SHOULD focus on THOSE demographics.

Obviously, I don't laugh at any sort of hijacking-- don't put the words in my mouth. But I do laugh at the idea that because the IRA was once considered a Terrorist group, and did terrorist attacks, that suddenly the demographic of every terrorist group should be considered.

I've got news.. pretty much every group of people has been involved in "terrorist" activities at one point or another. Americans were considered Terrorists by the British when they were fighting for Independence.. does that mean that just because the Brits thought America was terrorist at one point in time that even today they're wary of people with American accents? Heh, that would be a negative.

If being searched before going on a private form of transportation keeps others feeling safe, I don't see the big deal. Don't get me wrong, I'm liberal and all for personal rights, but thats only so far as the Government is concerned. If it was my demographic that happened to be pointed to as terrorist, yeah, it'd suck but I'd rather let the Security Guards look through my purse everytime I get on an airplane then have the Government secretly watching my phone calls and tracking everything I do, make, buy, etc without me knowing or worse, without me being able to have a choice. If you don't want to be searched before going on an airplane, or a train (Amtrak or whatever) you have a choice. Don't go.

[Sean of the Thread]

With our terror alert level at red, I’m not surprised. I go to South Capitol every Tuesday night except last Tuesday and I haven’t seen one officer yet.

You can't see them because they're wearing aluminum foil vests of light distortion.

[Sean]

C'mon man I like you, but your just trolling now.

[Latrinsorm]

Yes latrin.. Police detectives looking for a bank robber should just start randomly investigating citizens rather than basing it on the profile of the suspects.We're not talking about suspects (unless you're saying you suspect everyone from the Middle East). We're talking about the potential terrorists random screening is supposed to nab, and who said screening should focus on. If your police detectives were simply told that a bank robbery occurred, would you want them to focus their investigations on Protestants because everyone knows bank robbers are predominantly Protestant?
If you don't want to be searched before going on an airplane, or a train (Amtrak or whatever) you have a choice. Don't go.I have no issue with me personally being searched. I have an issue with people espousing policies that make the passengers on said modes of transportation much less safe (especially when the policies in question are borderline racist). I don't want 9/11 to happen again. I don't think you do either. How about instead of pretending that all terrorist threats to the US are Muslims and that police have "Muslim-dar", we say the security forces should apply the same (strict) security measures to all potential travellers?

[Makkah]

Where are the WMD?!?!?!

[Skeeter]

if you look muslim and don't plan on blowing up the plane the extra scrutiny shouldn't bother you, since they're working to make you safer as well.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I have no issue with me personally being searched. I have an issue with people espousing policies that make the passengers on said modes of transportation much less safe (especially when the policies in question are borderline racist). I don't want 9/11 to happen again. I don't think you do either. How about instead of pretending that all terrorist threats to the US are Muslims and that police have "Muslim-dar", we say the security forces should apply the same (strict) security measures to all potential travellers?

Wanna talk about not pretending? Lets stop pretending that the US even has the resources to create such a system and enforce it to a level that's "acceptable" to everybody. It's not racism-- it's common sense. Fundamentalist Muslims do NOT have to be Arab, this is correct.. especially in Northern Africa, there are many Black Muslims and I'm sure some are fundamentalist, and I'm sure there are some Caucasians all over the world who are too. HOWEVER-- the attacks that have been found/foiled/carried out have not included ANYBODY from those Demographics outside of Middle Eastern descent. It's a matter of known terrorist networks, where those are, and what sort of access they have to tools to let them wreak some major havoc. It's not about the tons of "what-ifs", that if we addressed every single one we'd have no Government force left to enforce anything, just scan every traveller for their potential to be a terrorist.

Profiling does not make travellers any less safe-- they still do random checks of people who DON'T fit the profile and search RANDOM luggage. I'm a 5'2" white girl and I've been checked, and my luggage has too. They use police dogs, scanners, all sorts of things to try to prevent another 9-11 from happening. Some stuff will slip through cracks no matter what the system, but there's no point in bashing the current system when the "replacement" idea isn't even feasible.

[Skeeter]

here's an analogy that should be right up your alley Latrin.

Say you're a shepherd. you need to keep those sheep safe. The area your flock is in has been subject to the attack of a couple hungry wolves.

You still keep an eye out for bears and coyotes and such, but when a wolf is in your sight you watch it with extra scrutiny to make sure it isn't one of the ones eating your sheep.

Same thing here. I hope they catch all the killers, but it would be stupid not to spend a little extra time watching the wolves since they've caused the majority of the problems.

[TheEschaton]

That's a pretty stupid analogy.

And as for "not minding the hassle because they're making me safer"...honestly, I don't care how long it takes. Personally, I'm used to waiting in lines for multiple hours, everything's been at breakneck speed for me since I've gotten home. The part that rubs me the wrong way is the unreasonable violation of the 4th amendment of people of Middle Eastern/South Asian descent.

And if you still say "so what", it's like that one quote...those who would give up their freedoms for more security deserve neither.

-TheE-

[Skeeter]

I may be bad at analogys but at least I'm not so stupid as to think that people who fit the profile of a terrorist should be treated just like everyone else.

I don't know if you claim muslim or just look like it, but you're lucky to be allowed to travel anywhere without a background check considering you've been out of the country for the last 2 years.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

That's a pretty stupid analogy.

And as for "not minding the hassle because they're making me safer"...honestly, I don't care how long it takes. Personally, I'm used to waiting in lines for multiple hours, everything's been at breakneck speed for me since I've gotten home. The part that rubs me the wrong way is the unreasonable violation of the 4th amendment of people of Middle Eastern/South Asian descent.

And if you still say "so what", it's like that one quote...those who would give up their freedoms for more security deserve neither.

-TheE-


The transportation we're talking about is not funded by the Government. They're private airlines/trains, and when you buy your ticket, you give up that right to not be searched without a warrant, etc etc. On top of that-- you can STILL tell them NO and just not get on the airplane/train/whatever. It's not a "violation" because by purchasing those tickets from a PRIVATE corporation, you give them the right to override your own. It's why people don't sue for being searched by TSA security.. there's no legal ground for it to stand on.

In public transportation, they DON'T search you. They just have a shit load of guards standing around looking for odd behavior/activity.

[Latrinsorm]

It's a good analogy with one general modification: the modification is that some wolves look like bears, some bears look like coyotes, and some coyotes look like wolves, where wolves are terrorists, bears are Christians, and coyotes are Muslims. By focusing predominantly on wolves, we necessarily let some of the bears through, which is unacceptable. We also harass a lot of the coyotes that aren't actually wolvish at all, and in doing so we let even more actual wolves in.
Lets stop pretending that the US even has the resources to create such a system and enforce it to a level that's "acceptable" to everybody.Isn't the anti-Bush statement to make here that "if we weren't in Iraq for oil/revenge we would have the manpower to protect us at home!!!!1"? How about this: we stop paying farmers to throw away food and we use that money to train/adminster/hire extra security at airports. Or, we stop building random 250 million dollar bridges in Alaska that nobody will ever use. There's plenty of stuff we could stop spending money on.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Isn't the anti-Bush statement to make here that "if we weren't in Iraq for oil/revenge we would have the manpower to protect us at home!!!!1"? How about this: we stop paying farmers to throw away food and we use that money to train/adminster/hire extra security at airports. Or, we stop building random 250 million dollar bridges in Alaska that nobody will ever use. There's plenty of stuff we could stop spending money on.

Given the amount of people who pass through transportation systems, to totally stop profiling and do it on a mass, everybody gets it scale, not only would the man power/training be in such incredible numbers that it'd be a WASTE of money, but it'd also seriously hamper the transportation system in that you'd need to get to the airport 5 hours in advance. We're not talking "extra security" here, we're talking a total re-write and totally new task force being made, and with what funds? Sure, some stuff can be cut but who says everybody agrees that's where the funds should go? If we had enough extra money to do this, I'd rather put the money in building a new public school system. *shrug* Either way, it's not going to happen.


Edit: I should clarify that part of what makes this unreasonable is that the current airport facilities/train station facilities are not built to handle searches on this level. In order to make it work as smooth as it does now, there'd have to be a huge dumping of money into renovating/rebuilding.