billing change

[theotherjohn]

Simutronics is changing part of its billing system in a way that may
affect your November bill.

We discovered that we were handling upgraded subscription levels
incorrectly. Our system is supposed to work like your phone or cable
bill, with subscriptions charged in advance. And, in fact, that is the
way it works with your Basic subscription - you are charged for the
upcoming month.

However, upgrades such as premium or extra characters have not been
billed this way and instead have billed for the previous month's
service. When you signed up for upgrades like Premium, your first
upgrade was pro-rated for the past month's portion, but not billed for
the next month. We were always a month behind on upgrades. And, when
an account was canceled that "missing" month often never got billed
even though we did deliver the service.

Now we need to fix it, before the end of the year. Our auditors won't
like me if we don't.

On your November bill, you will be charged both for the past month and
the next month, for any upgrades on your account. Remember, just the
upgrades, not your basic subscription. This will bring our account
up-to-date and will only happen one time. From now on, the first bill
for upgrades will include a pro-rated fraction of the previous month
and the full next month's amount. And at each billing cycle, you will
be billed for the next month's service, just like your phone or
cable bill works.

This is a one-time only adjustment to bring the billing of upgrades
into alignment with your basic service subscription.

I understand that this may be somewhat confusing for some so I'll make
myself available on the forums. Melissa, Bubba and Andy have set up a
spot in the Simutronics Forum at

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=90&category=2&topic=11

and I'll join them to handle any questions and comments.

On behalf of Simutronics I apologize for the inconvenience.

Neil Harris
Executive Vice President


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[Betheny]

oh christ

[Xcalibur]

"Sorry, it tooks us 15 years to realize that"

real soon all the way

[peam]

Wow, what a crock.

They should've bit the bullet.

[Halfsilver]

That's shit.

Messes up the already precarious balance of my delicate bill-paying plans.

They should just admit their mistake and take the loss by giving us that month.

Bastards.

-grays/d

[Betheny]

I'm not sure why they can do that. That doesn't seem fair to me. They should've given everyone that month.

And as I recall, the billing cycle runs true... you don't pay, you don't play that month. So... if they've got your money already, shouldn't you be able to play for a month until your pre-pay runs out? I know that isn't how it works now.

[theotherjohn]

last time I brought this up I took some shit but I will bring it up again.

Lets see. ...

Simu offers exp bonus for people who join premium / plat

Simu increase length till GS4 goes live

Simu announces billing has been done wrong so premium / plat has to pay more

after a few others post I will post my hypothesis

[Camri]

Well, if they think I'm paying double they can just forget it. It isn't that I don't want to play, it's that I can't AFFORD a double payment in one month right now.

I just got done paying for Ebon Gate. If they would have come out with this sooner, I wouldn't have paid for that, and they could have their damn double payment.

[Halfsilver]

Yeah, and it sucks because you can't skip a month of gemstone to save yourself the double charge, because you've paid for Ebon GAte tickets and you'd miss the festival.

Fuckers planned it well, didn't they?

-grays/d(on 3 out of 12):smilegrin:

[Zanagodly]

Well since their auditors will be so upset, then that should only affect people who have upgraded to a premium or plat subscription in this year. Otherwise the auditors can't bullshit about past year numbers.

[Edaarin]

I'm glad I'm only "paying" 14.95 a month.

[BroVod]

double payment....this calls for another Mana bread protest...except this time i won't breeze them away...I got in so much truoble for that
<prep 203>
<cast>
repeat 1 billion times per person
hehe

[theotherjohn]

Below is my response to Simu


From: THEOTHERJOHN@play.net | Add to Address Book
To: cancel@simutronics.com
CC: theotherjohn@yahoo.com
Subject: Cancellation Request
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:31:00 -0600




User requests cancellation(s), as specified below.

Account Name : THEOTHERJOHN

User would like following character SUBSCRIPTION(s) canceled:
GS3.EC

User would like following CHARACTER(s) canceled:
Itoj (GemStone III)

Reason:
The reasons are: you allow people such as Augie to become Mentors.
You announce that you will do a backcharge. Isnt it illegal to
backcharge my account without my permission or agreement?

[Halfsilver]

Ha, Mods threw that bomb out and retreated FAST didn't they?

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=90&category=2&topic=11

They were right to. I keep thinking, now I'll have to cancel for a month so I can deal with the change, but then I think...I just bought a ticket for Ebon Gate, I can't skip a month.

Damn you Simu. Damn you.

[AnticorRifling]

My post is the last one in that thread. It covers the Ebon issue.

[CrystalTears]

I put in my two cents. My fiance and I are NOT pleased at all about this moronic decision. Such horrible timing. Not only are they already pissing off the clientele by implementing a game most of us were not prepared for, but now they want us to pay a month more because they fucked up? No I'm sorry that's bullshit. They cut you off NOW when you cancel and don't give you til the end of the month. So once they have my advanced payment and I quit it's like eating that payment. They can eat me. That's completely crap. :mad:

[StrayRogue]

Hmmm, so its gonna stack with Ebons. FRAUD please. What fucking idiots.

[StrayRogue]

To be honest, in the past few days, I have become fucking angry at Simu. This Augie mentor buisness, this raping in regards to money and the total farse that is GS4, I think I may quit soon after Ebons.

[Wezas]

In case you don't feel like sifting through messages to see Simu-Andy's response:




There are two groups of people: 1: those who signed up for extra character slots or premium after January 1, 1999 and were charged a "pro-rata" partial bill in February 1999, and 2: those who signed up for said options prior to January 1, 1999 and were charged the full amount of their option. There is a third group of people, those who signed up for an option during the month of October 2003.

Group 1, the ones who had already been charged a "partial month" when they initially were billed for the option, will be charged, on their billing date, for the prior month's amount ($14.95, for example, for the basic + 1 extra character slot), plus an additional amount equal to the options ($2.00, in this case). It will show up on their detailed billing as a separate line item.

Group 2, the ones charged for the full month, will be charged, on their billing date, for the prior month's amount ($14.95, same example), plus a PRO-RATA amount equal to what they had not already pre-paid, which works out to be about 6 cents per day for the extra character. It will show up on their detailed billing as a separate line item.

Many people (about one-third) in group 2 will see no increase in their billing at all, since they either signed up for basic & the options on the same (effective) day, or made arrangements to make sure that they signed up the day before/of their next billing cycle. The average number of days "extra" in group 2 is around 10-12 and not the 15 (half a month) one would have expected. I spent a good deal of time verifying that number was correct.

Group 3, the ones who signed up in October for an option, will be billed like those in group 1, the pro-rata amount + the full month's forward billing of the option.

The billing@simutronics.com folks have a very quick & easy way to let a customer who contacts us to predict how much the next bill will be.

I hope this helps...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy


and



A clarification on my "group 3", those who signed up in October and are first-billed in November are the ones I meant as the partial+full billing. (I always meant it that way, I just phrased it poorly.)

Sometime tomorrow there will be a web thingy that will let you look up your account information online that will show the anticipated amount, and the details behind it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy
late night programming is best


[Edited on 10-28-2003 by Wezas]

[Sean]

my issue is that my billing period is on the 2nd .. is this whole thing going to be clearly resolved by the 2nd so i can see what i owe and if i can afford to play for the month? i highly doubt it simu really dropped the ball on this one and i get the feeling im getting fucked over for it

[AnticorRifling]

I put a link in to this thread. Hope we get some posts from it heh.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I put a link in to this thread. Hope we get some posts from it heh.

PINKERTONW, Bwahahahahahaha

That is all.

::edited because that is not all::

Kaled has the most valid point I've seen so far.


This change is therefore not to fix an error, it is a change in policy to bill premium customers in advance.

[Edited on 10-28-2003 by Wezas]

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I put a link in to this thread. Hope we get some posts from it heh.

PINKERTONW, Bwahahahahahaha

That is all.

::edited because that is not all::

Kaled has the most valid point I've seen so far.


This change is therefore not to fix an error, it is a change in policy to bill premium customers in advance.

[Edited on 10-28-2003 by Wezas]

I thought you all already knew my last name was Pinkerton... Go to boot camp with Pink in your last name then try and hurt my feelings :cool:

[Sweets]

If I had not already gotten my ticket for Ebon Gate, I would have dropped my accounts. Unfortunately they have me by my balls. Once I pay that amount for something, I can't NOT go. I already wasted the money.

Gemstone IV had better make me wet my panties (just to add, I have been a long time supporter of the changes. Now, I am not so willing to put up with shit in the new game).

I realize my post is just babble. I....am....damn...fricking......ANGRY!:flamed:

[Edited on 10-28-2003 by Sweets]

[Adhara]

I thought you could get a refund for events if you ask for it before it starts?

As for the billing itself, if I understand well, nobody will be charged for something they haven't used. For example if you get billed every 1st of the month for your subscripton, you're paying for the month that is starting. If you get an extra slot on january 15, you get billed on february 1st for the basic subscription of february (pay ahead) and 15 days of extra slot for january (pay after).

Say you want to close your account on may 23. Billing would tell you that you are all paid up until may 31st (you paid may 1st for the starting month) and that the account will be closed that day. Since you pay after for your extra slot, there SHOULD have been a "final bill" on june first where you paid for your extra slot of may. This is where they lost money and people got a "free month."

Exisiting open accounts do not get charged for something they have gotten for free for years. They simply transition from "pay after" to "pay ahead" with the extra slots and others so that ALL your bill will be pay ahead and not split. All this does is ensure that they don't lose any money when accounts are closed anymore.

Does it suck for a budget being billed twice in a month? Definitely. Does it suck that this double bill comes on the same bill as Ebon Gate? Oh yeah! Bad timing! However their decision to move to pay ahead like the basic subscription is a sound one for the sake of simplicity and I would do the same thing were it up to me.

I haven't read anywhere that they will call all the people who closed their accounts to claim one more month. That might be considered "rape" but if they take the loss and just move on to fixing the mistake (which by what I see is what they're doing) then I see nothing to bitch about, except perhaps the timing.

[Edited on 10-28-2003 by Adhara]

[StrayRogue]

I feel, if its a player mistake, the players pay for it. If its stupidity or an over-sight on the side of the Simu staff, they should foot the bill.

[Sweets]

*Deep breath*

I am not sure about the refund if you ask for it before the event. I will have to look into that. I will probably go anyway. *Blush* I love Ebon Gate. It just seems to me lately that Simutronics can't quite keep it together. I am losing faith in the company due to the many things that I see are wrong. I can ignore the fact THEY ignore the whole ooc and oog babble. I can see why they would like to overhaul the game (at the expense to some characters). I have always felt they were pushing it with the prices they slap on their events, let alone the hike in price, but will keep paying.

It hasn't come to the last straw yet. I still want to play. That load of straw (*cough* crap)is getting pretty heavy though.

[Edited on 10-28-2003 by Sweets]

[CrystalTears]

Just seems like a way to make up for the loss they know they will be getting when GS4 goes live and people quit a little while after. They didn't seem to be hurting for money for the past 6 years, why try to backpeddle now and make the players pay for something they screwed up on?

They are really pissing me off lately.

[StrayRogue]

In a way, I hope they do go through with this insane plan, just as I hope the mass exodus, law suits that will follow will cripple the company and give whomever idiot who was in control of this nightmares for the rest of their pathetic lives.

Yes I am evil.

[Adhara]

Lawsuits would be meaningless as what they are doing is totally acceptable. I thought I had been clear in my previous explanation of what is going on... So many seem to not understand what's really happening.

It was poor planning on their part and they are fixing the mistake but the existing customers will NOT overpay! You are still paying for what you get, no more no less. The transition causes this double billing in a month but you are NOT getting ripped off!

Poor planning, bad move doing this now with Ebon Gate and the dissatisfaction about GS4. Maybe it would have been better to go with a "final bill" to cover for that "pay after" part until all the heat dies down but instead they chose to simplify their billing. It might be yet another bad decision on Simu's part but it is definitely legal and even standard practice among service providers of any kind (cable, cell phones. ISPs etc.)

[StrayRogue]

I suggest you read the Pricing boards. Some, more knowledgable folk than I seem to think they have every damn right to sue if they are charged for a mistake they could not control.

[CrystalTears]

They don't mention in their billing process they they will be charging for the following month, and are pro rating the present month for when you join. They just seem to have realized that it shouldn't work that way and are trying to change it. It's still a cheap move.

[Adhara]

It's America of course there will be lawsuits! Seems lawsuit is freedom's evil twin.

[CrystalTears]

They're just pushing their luck. They would have had better luck doing this at the beginning of next year, not when they are moving over to GS4, not when they are having Ebon Gate, and certainly not around the holidays.

Someone tell me what drugs the accountant is smoking because I want some.

HA and they say being a low tax payer does not have advantages.... ththththphphpththp

[CrystalTears]

Hi folks,

As the official s\c\a\p\e\g\o\a\t\ spokesman for this issue, I thought I'd quickly post to the board here. I am working my way through your comments and will make sure that we get the correct responses to you on specific issues. I'm sure Andy, Melissa and Eric will continue to reply to any specifics that arise.

We've held a number of meetings on the subhect internally trying to figure out how to best address it. A number of you have suggested that we just "eat" the difference -- nice idea, and we would if we could, but we can't. We're working making the books perfect for the audit.

Andy has gone through the billing system with a fine toothed comb to make sure we handle the change correctly. He has outline for you the specifics of categories of accounts that are affected. Some people's accounts are a full month behind, while others are only a pro-rated portion of a month behind -- this is the addition that is scheduled to appear on the November bills.

I know there are a number of customers who are not happy about this, but we're doing the best we can to make this right, and we'll continue to do so.

More later. Keep the questions and comments coming! But please, be gentle. :)

-->Neil

My response:

I still don't see why we have to pay for your mistake.

Tell Whatley to pay the difference.

[Vixen]

I'd have to agree here.. error.. billing change.. it really means jack to me as now I have to come up with an extra chunk of change, no matter what the reason is.

Now.. with GS4.. people paying for Ebon's Gate.. and the holidays coming up.. it just sucks major ass that they have to do this NOW... after not noticing for 6 years?

My 2 cents

[Just Lurking]

Remember the Enron scandal and how it had to do with auditors looking the other way? Now, Simu is a much smaller scale, but auditors are not able to *fudge* reports anymore without the goverment noticing. My take on this is that Simu may have been counting those unpaid months as revenue when it should've been counted as a liability. Now they are pushing it to their customers so that it won't go public.

Just an FYI, Simutronics is a part of the Better Business Bureau. If Simutronics won't work with you then you can file a complaint with the BBB to help you to resolve the problem.

This whole thing stinks to me.

My two cents...and some speculation,

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Main BBB Site for St. Louis:
http://www.stlouis.bbb.org/

First- Simutronics Corp. current BBB report
http://www.stlouis.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=310013366

Second- File a Complaint, Complaint Instructions, Complaint Processing & Reporting Policy, Dispute Resolution Services
http://www.stlouis.bbb.org/complaint.html

[Sente]

Here is what I posted on the Simu boards, just going to copy it since I only feel like expressing myself once.

<<We discovered that we were handling upgraded subscription levels incorrectly. Our system is supposed to work like your phone or cable bill, with subscriptions charged in advance. And, in fact, that is the way it works with your Basic subscription - you are charged for the upcoming month.>>

I checked my billing history today. I have always billed for services at the end of month BOTH for Basic and Premium, never upfront, not even just the Basic portion. I have never, ever been billed up front for Basic service.

<<When you signed up for upgrades like Premium, your first upgrade was pro-rated for the past month's portion, but not billed for the next month. We were always a month behind on upgrades.>>

No, we were not a month behind. The moment we get billed our account is square up to that date. If in the first month, we were Premium for only 15 days, we paid for 15 days. We do not owe for Premium for the 15 days that we were not Premium.

<<And, when an account was canceled that "missing" month often never got billed even though we did deliver the service.>>

That was your true mistake then. There should have been a final billing. In effect, we current customers are paying for the partial unbilled months of those customers who have left!

<<Now we need to fix it, before the end of the year. Our auditors won't like me if we don't.>>

I'm gonna to claim to be an accountant, but I do know this. Revenue is not recognized until the product or service has been delivered to the customer. Accounting-wise switching doesn't make a difference. All it does it help Simu's cash flow and is way to bill that final month automatically without having to send out a bill when an account is closed. What the auditor does not like, I suspect, is the fact that when an account is closed the partial month goes unbilled (as well they should). As I have already said, send a final bill.

<<This is a one-time only adjustment to bring the billing of upgrades into alignment with your basic service subscription.>>

As I stated up top, my billing has always been aligned!

I not as much upset about the billing change than the way they are handling it. Simu feels the need to lie to us. They feel the need to violate their own terms of service. The onus should not be on us to pay for the partial unbilled months of those who have left us.

player, Sente

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Just Lurking
Remember the Enron scandal and how it had to do with auditors looking the other way? Now, Simu is a much smaller scale, but auditors are not able to *fudge* reports anymore without the goverment noticing. My take on this is that Simu may have been counting those unpaid months as revenue when it should've been counted as a liability. Now they are pushing it to their customers so that it won't go public.

Just an FYI, Simutronics is a part of the Better Business Bureau. If Simutronics won't work with you then you can file a complaint with the BBB to help you to resolve the problem.

This whole thing stinks to me.

My two cents...and some speculation,

You're comparing a publicly traded company that has to report it's earnings to the board and public vs Simu.

[Zanagodly]

Originally posted by Sente

I'm gonna to claim to be an accountant, but I do know this. Revenue is not recognized until the product or service has been delivered to the customer. Accounting-wise switching doesn't make a difference. All it does it help Simu's cash flow and is way to bill that final month automatically without having to send out a bill when an account is closed. What the auditor does not like, I suspect, is the fact that when an account is closed the partial month goes unbilled (as well they should). As I have already said, send a final bill.



player, Sente

Not entirely true. Revenue is recognized when it is realized. Realized meaning that a company knows with almost absolute certainty that the sale will go through. A lot of companies recognize revenue as the product leaves their loading dock. There are plenty of ways that Simu and its auditors can take care of this issue without having to charge this double amount. Accounting is so subjective, that they can capitalize the loss in anything they choose, its not hard. Simutronics is simply changing its accounting principle from receiving billing prior to services rendered, to after. Not really anything anyone can do, but it sucks.

[BroVod]

Regardless of what revenue is, I also checked my billing status from when i switched to premium, which was only recent. I've been playing the game for over a decade now. IT seems every few years we end up having to pay more...Now the switch from AOL/Genie to the internet was fine with me...we needed that, and alot of good came from it. I used to hate the whole concept of Premium at first. Mainly cause it just wasn't in my budget to play, untill recently. Now that i can afford(barely) to be premium this comes up. I do not understand why I have to pay an extra 20 dollars for a service that I did not recieve. I know that is illegal, and i am currently discussing it with my attoryney on what i can do. Now i am not going to sue or take litigation, but who knows. I know this is not right or just. Like many others have pointed out, its around the holidays, ebons is this weekend and all that jazz. I know people who have several accounts, and a bunch of them being premium so they have to shell out over 100 dollars. This sucks alot more for them than me, because they aslo bought several ebons tickets, their aniversary is right around the corner, and they were planning a possible vacation....and they have to buy me a x-mas present!(hehe)This was not thought out well enough. Why not place a much smaller fee and spread it out over a few months, that would be more acceptalbe...Or why not hold on until after christmas or wait 2 months. Let people get that money in. All this is doing is creating tension in and out of the lands. I know this for a fact. I know a lot of people who are going to quit the game if they can not get their ebon's gate tickets refunded because they need that money to pay their bill that has just come up. Now whst the fun in that...me and these people have been planning ebons for a long time. A bunch of us are getting together here in south florida and hooking our computers up to a server and we're planning on having a blast at ebons all weekend. Now they have to hock their tickets. Now if you think about it...Simu loses more money by people hocking their ebons tickets....now if you do not let them do that, then i can see some real issues happening, you have to let them hock them if yer 100% gonna make us pay this unknown bill that popped up...thats my 2 cents...sorry its not all in paragraphs and what not, i just started typing and i never stop to check grammar!

ZimZum, JJ

[Iqxero]

http://www.geocities.com/gemstonepoll/

Above is a link for a poll I put together to collect some opinion about the november reaming.

Thanks!

[Caramia]

Not only are they already pissing off the clientele by implementing a game most of us were not prepared for, but now they want us to pay a month more because they fucked up?

Not prepared for? The documentation and preparations have been ongoing for the last two years! What rock have you been living under?

Perhaps you aren't ~~prepared~~ because you didn't bother to go read the posts, the documents, or attend the forums?

[StrayRogue]

OK Caramia. Please tell me the following mechanics and how they work:
Bolt DS for 2-handers.
The exact calculation for getting an "evasion".
Stave DS.
How many ranks of each lore is required to increase the AvD of a Wizard bolt by one?

Please post this info on here or take back your bullshit statement above. Thanks.

[Artha]

If you have problems paying, but don't want to quit GS: Downgrade to basic, or write billing and put your account on hold for november.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Caramia
Not prepared for? The documentation and preparations have been ongoing for the last two years! What rock have you been living under?

Perhaps you aren't ~~prepared~~ because you didn't bother to go read the posts, the documents, or attend the forums?

Please tell my what documents you are reading?

I am not being a smart ass I just dont want to miss stuff like the documentation on how much more important PT is as a primary redux skill than secondary, what are the effects of stanima? etc

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Artha
If you have problems paying, but don't want to quit GS: Downgrade to basic, or write billing and put your account on hold for november.

according to Brian in billing, when you take your account off of hold or upgrade in the future you will still have to pay the backchage

[Artha]

Yeah, but you saved November's price.

[StrayRogue]

So? Whats the fucking point then? You will still be double paying for a month if you reactivate the account.

And for TOJ's other point, I AM being a jackass. I want to see all this documentation Caramia. All of it.

[Prosperanna]

I'm confused. I thought the e-mail said that we'd only be charged double for upgrades to our subscriptions, right? For example, I have an extra character. I took the e-mail to mean that I'd be charged $4 extra this next cycle instead of my regular $2. Am I wrong about this? Because with everyone saying they might not be able to pay, I'm just getting confused.

[StrayRogue]

Send an email to the billing department, they will tell you exactly how much you owe. Premium members are getting raped here. Gee, coincidence.

[Artha]

Click me (http://backcharge.youarelame.com/).

[Caramia]

Please tell my what documents you are reading?

Growing Pains boards, Growing Pains documentation, GS4 Boards, GS4 documentation, all on the www.play.net web site. Forums have been eld in the game as well. They haven't been frequent, but they have been announced on the calendar.

And

Bolt DS for 2-handers.
The exact calculation for getting an "evasion".
Stave DS.
How many ranks of each lore is required to increase the AvD of a Wizard bolt by one?

You're rarely going to get an "exact calculation" or figure for AS/DS/TD out of a GM. Haven't you noticed that they don't reveal stuff beforehand, because they don't want to be tied to it if it changes when it's finally finished? It's not yet finished, so you can't get the numbers.

So if that's what you're looking or waiting for, join the club. But to claim not knowing this has you "unprepared" for the game, look at it this way -- it's like logging into a brand new game you know nothing about, except some information on their web site, and you have to spend some time getting familiar with the game.

I know what you're thinking, why should I have to get familiar with a game I know and have been playing for years? Because it's not just adding stuff to the existing game, it's changing it. It will be a whole new game.

Don't want to risk your main character just yet until everything is tested, fixed, settled, established? Roll up a newbie and play for a month or two until the dust settles, then log them in. You get 6 chances to reallocate over a month's time and the ability to train in various skills if you don't like the one you initially chose.

Not having ~~all~~ the answers hardly leaves you unprepared for game changes. If you're that concerned, go log into the test instance and check things out for yourself. Ask others for help.

If there was ever a time we needed to put aside petty bullshit and lean on each other for help, this is it.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Caramia
Please tell my what documents you are reading?

Growing Pains boards, Growing Pains documentation, GS4 Boards, GS4 documentation, all on the www.play.net web site. Forums have been eld in the game as well. They haven't been frequent, but they have been announced on the calendar.



I will be nice and just post this.

You have no clue.

[Betheny]

So cancel your extra characters and premium subscription. Gemstone isn't worth 30 bucks a month.

[Back]

They *really* should not have sprung this on us like they did. Like I said before, I'm all for them changing their billing practice if they wish. I just think that we should have been given fair warning to prepare and budget for it. Or a payment plan would be nice.

After reading all the posts on these and the play.net boards, I can see how this request would have been more than reasonable considering everything from the holidays to Ebon's gate. Hopefully, if enough people promote this idea and their displeasure in how it was handled, they will listen.

[Zanagodly]

People oughta plan a date and agree to turn off their accounts on that date. A thousand accounts turned off, would put them in a frenzy. Its time for the roles to be reveresd. I don't start much shit about game changes, but when it comes to getting screwed monetarily, then thats just fuct up.

[BroVod]

why should i ask them to put me on hold so i lose ebons? and why downgrade so I lose the miullions of silvers i put into my house..screw that

[Caramia]

If your budgeting is so tight that double billing for a month or so is going to send you into debt, or the money could be used for something else more important and necessary, then perhaps you have bigger issues to deal with than.

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by Caramia]

[Warriorbird]

So....because Simu's going to bill someone a lot for being a devoted customer....and that cuts into their monthly budgeting...you're going to ridicule them? I imagine Simutronics makes up a large portion of many customers' entertainment budget...to suddenly have that cost double would suck...

Yeesh. Way to be a jerk.

I mean, I can understand Simu needing money, and I can understand it being hard for some people to take...but lots of time in talking here, people highlight some very negative sides of themselves.

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by Warriorbird]

[StrayRogue]

What do you expect. Its clear this moron knows nothing of many of the GS4 changes which she claims too. Most game mechanics in gS3 we have been told or have had years to work out. No such luxury now. We have a very tight margin of error trying to get our characters right again. And if you had any sense you'd realize half of these amazing changes Simu have made are absolutely shit when put up for testing.

Examples:
Stave DS.
Evading/Dodging.
Mana issues.
Critter Redistribtion.
Redux.
Ambushing.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Caramia
If your budgeting is so tight that double billing for a month or so is going to send you into debt, or the money could be used for something else more important and necessary, then perhaps you have bigger issues to deal with than.

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by Caramia]

I think it's more the point of the issue than the money.

I don't remember anyone asking you financial advice. You're making assumptions based on 0 information and you're making yourself look quite the ass.

The holier than thou attitude rarely comes off well in any situation in life, message boards included.

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by AnticorRifling]

[Sweets]

Originally posted by Lady Daina

Originally posted by Caramia
If your budgeting is so tight that double billing for a month or so is going to send you into debt, or the money could be used for something else more important and necessary, then perhaps you have bigger issues to deal with than.

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by Caramia]

I'm sincerely happy for you that you do not have the same kind of financial restrictions that so many of us do. However, it's pretty rude of you to rub it in our faces and insinuate that we are doing something 'wrong' by having to budget.

I have gone to the movies *maybe* three times ALL YEAR. I have rented movies maybe twice that many times. I do not work outside the home because of a blown knee and a young child. Our household does not bring a lot of money in, so we can not spend a lot.

Gemstone is our *only* luxury, it is our only entertainment. We don't pay for digital cable, we don't go out to eat, we don't order in, Khaitiff doesn't buy breakfast and lunch at work, we have our necessities and we have Gemstone.

We don't drink and we don't smoke, so those are not 'expenses' we have. I fail to see why you are sticking your nose up in the air and trying to begrudge us our ONE luxury, but it ultimately does not matter.

As I've stated above, some of us have more than an extra character slot or two, and more than one account that is being affected. It really does add up quickly. Again, let me reiterate that I am sincerely happy that you do not feel the pinch, but to ridicule others that do is really lame. :thumbsdown:


Ditto. That post you made Caramia was pure snobbery. Being on a budget does not mean we have "issues" we need to deal with first. It means we do not make gads of cash. Since I am going on maternity leave, I approached my husband with canceling my account. His response was to turn white and say "But you will go mad and take me with you."


I guess I need the fix or I get cranky.:lol:

[Edaarin]

For a lot of people I've talked to, it's not even about the money. It's about the complete lack of common sense, and a need for a PR type figure. Some people got the notice what, a few days before their billing cycle? And some wont even get that e-mail? It's absurd. It's not a big deal to me, I get to pay an extra whopping $2.00 this month, but the principle of the matter is that in this particular instance Simu does not come off as a very customer-friendly company. I don't think one person would agree that they've handled this situation well, and I'm pretty sure that any idiot off the street could have come up with a better way to tell people than a standardized e-mail that took 30 seconds to whip up. Anyone with the slightest modicum of sense could have foreseen what would come from this.

[CrystalTears]

I'm going to write to my bank and tell them to decline any charge other than my regular monthly charge. I'm not going to quit because I won't give them the satisfaction. If my credit decline for the extra amount makes them cancel me, that would be their decision, not mine. They would have screwed themselves out of a subscription where they get almost $400 a year from me because they wanted to charge me $20 now.

[Adhara]

I visited the BBB website and filled out a complaint form. It's a very easy 1-2-3 step online form.

What I requested in my complaint is that this part of Simu's TOS be enforced:

Simutronics may change its fees and billing methods at any time and at its sole discretion effective upon thirty (30) days' prior notice.

Considering the email was sent on october 28th, the TOS will hold true only for those billed on november 28 or later. In my case it gives me a 10 and 20 day notice.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm just going to sell/delete all my locker characters. Fuck SIMU. They just turned a 100 dollar a month 3 account person into two standard accounts with 4 characters. I'll be consolidating further once I decide which of my 4 characters is actually fun, or just closing everything.

GM's may give a shit about Gemstone, but SIMU does not. I say FUCK THEM as loud as I can.

Referals? Forget it. I'm telling everyone I know what a fucktard they are.

If it wasn't such an addictive game, I'd have already told them to screw off because of the progressively worse ass rapings.

[Adhara]

I've also started rummaging through my stuff so I can downgrade my premium account to standard.

[Blackroses]

Originally posted by Caramia
If your budgeting is so tight that double billing for a month or so is going to send you into debt, or the money could be used for something else more important and necessary, then perhaps you have bigger issues to deal with than.

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by Caramia]




First off many people have budgeting problems i know i do and i work a full time job , my husband as well , But when you have monthly bills and an extra charge is thrown in there then that will result in anger and a problem . I feel this is a load of crap with Ebon's and my kids birthdays all this month im going nuts with trying to figure out where the extra money is comming from. Screw them ill downgrade if i have to .

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I'm just going to sell/delete all my locker characters. Fuck SIMU. They just turned a 100 dollar a month 3 account person into two standard accounts with 4 characters. I'll be consolidating further once I decide which of my 4 characters is actually fun, or just closing everything.

GM's may give a shit about Gemstone, but SIMU does not. I say FUCK THEM as loud as I can.

Referals? Forget it. I'm telling everyone I know what a fucktard they are.

If it wasn't such an addictive game, I'd have already told them to screw off because of the progressively worse ass rapings.

It's that attitude that will change thing, not by just whining, but by takign action.
I encourage people to do so, maybe they'll treat players as clients, and not as brainless sheep.

[StrayRogue]

I closed two accounts last night. My main one will most likely be getting closed soon into GS4.

[Xcalibur]

Ah? care to say why? you'll stop playing completely?

[StrayRogue]

Simple. Its all I can do to say "fuck you" to the people in charge. I posted on the boards exactly why. DS4 Discussions. Entitled Account Cancelation.

[Xcalibur]

Let's just hope that it won't be 5 people doing so, I really hope they'll consider that crap game called gs4 and their attutide in general

[Caramia]

I feel this is a load of crap with Ebon's and my kids birthdays all this month im going nuts with trying to figure out where the extra money is comming from.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking out. It's not how much money you have, or what you spend it on, it's what you chose to spend it on. If you have to decide between a game and your kid's birthday, THAT is a bigger issue you need to attend to.

The answer is very simple, your kid, your life, what you need to live comes first. You shouldn't have to debate whether you can afford a game -- if you can't, then you just can't.

There's been times I've had to freeze my account. I've missed the game, missed my friends, missed some fun. But when it comes down to affording rent or something for my kids, the answer is clear.

Speaking of assumptions, you all just assumed I was being snobbish about money and didn't have any problems with payment myself, instead of the real issue that hits you in face when reading these posts -- the appall that some contemplate a game cost in the same light as a real life necessity.

No one handed me a silver platter or supplied me all the answers when I walked into GS3, which was long before formulas were published, long before GM forums, long before boards were accessible to all and contained a derth of GM-supplied information.

You asked other people for information based on their testing. You did your own testing. We helped each other and we made mistakes and rolled over again. You're asking for numbers that probably aren't even ready to be given out yet. You're asking for formulas that probably aren't final yet. You're asking for costs that could be one thing today, and another thing tomorrow. You're asking for a GM-recommended training path, and we know how well that worked when Romulus told the Sorcerer's what path to take! When his plans for Sorcerer's were nerf by Ophion and Banthis, and when the triple trainer's got penalized, who got blamed? Romulus did!

We've demonstrated a very fickle love-hate relationship with the GMs who work the code, why would they want to risk being vilified here or elsewhere because something they said today, yesterday, a year ago isn't exactly what they said it was going to be when it's finally engaged?

I don't blame them one bit for being cautious about the information out there.

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by Caramia]

[Latrinsorm]

Didn't we go through all this when Simu upped the costs of subscription a couple years ago? By the way, did anyone see how they tried to pawn off GS4 as what they spent the extra money on? heh.
Simu. Could care less. About anyone who pays them. See if you can find that story about Simu as a restaurant. It hits the nail on the frikkin head.
I've been away from GS for awhile now and right now I'm glad. Because I won't be signing up until GS4 is actually in (which could be next year or something, who knows) and so I won't have to go through all this BS. To have an established character go through this tremenedous upheaval and on top of it to pay double for it, that's incredibly rough.

Now, all that being said, it could be that's what Simu wants. Do they want (let's face it) jaded people who have seen the glaring problems in their product? Maybe they're addicted and can be strung out, but maybe not. Let's do everything we can to make them leave short of outright theivery... or not... and bring a completely new game into existence, try to start over. New people won't have memories of how they've been screwed over....

decisions, decisions

and yeah, I'm one of the new people, technically. I wish y'all wouldn't go, but it seems Simu (yet again) is not following my wishes.

[CrystalTears]

It was just posted that the additional charge won't be until December so that it will be at least a 30 day notice of this billing change. You should be receiving an email about it soon.

[peam]

Ah, right in time for Christmas.

Maybe Whatley's handing out fake boobs all around this year.

[Edited on 10-30-2003 by peam]

[Betheny]

I'd rather he hand out a quality, functional product.

GS4 = WinME.

[Back]

From play.net forums Simutronics/Simutronics Discussions/Pricing

SIMU-NEIL

That Neil Guy



30 Days · on 10/29/2003 4:45:47 PM 1694

Folks,

I think we can do something helpful here.

Our view on this November billing situation has always been that this is a correction of a billing mistake rather than a change in method and so the 30 day notice issue was never considered. However, given that the timing has caused a certain amount of difficulty for many people, and some feel that this falls under the description of "a change in method" regardless, we have decided to go ahead and move the correction to the month of December. So this will serve as 30 days notice that so many desire. In fact, since billing is spread out all through the month of December, it's actually somewhere between 32 and 62 days notice depending on your personal billing cycle.

During this period, any upgrades that are canceled between now and the next billing cycle will be charged for the final unpaid amount. After the next billing cycle, everything will be billed properly and it won't be an issue anymore.

So, to reiterate, the correction to bring the billing cycles in sync will occur in the month of December 2003 rather than November.

An email explaining this change will be sent to all affected and we'll also be adding a web-based notice.

Neil Harris
Executive VP

I wonder how many people cancelled and downgraded since the original email and if that had any effect on their decision.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Backlash
I wonder how many people cancelled and downgraded since the original email and if that had any effect on their decision.

I wonder how many people cancelled and downgraded since the original email and are still going to get charged the $$ for the month they have not "paid for"

-Adredrin

[Back]

I went Prmium back when it moved to the web. Cancelled a year later. Reactivated just this year, transferd the old char to the new account. Ducked the fee. Only getting charged twice for the extra char slot.

Those poor, poor MA Platinum suckers... thats gotta hurt.

[GemstoneFan]

I recently reopened my DAoC account. One price, more chars than I could EVER use on more servers than i will ever play on. I find myself spending a lot more time there these days also.

Bad move Simu.....I'm thinking about calling it quits and slimming down to one basic account after Ebon's. *Especially* with the changes coming around.

[Artha]

I wonder how many people cancelled and downgraded since the original email and if that had any effect on their decision.

Actually, while that might have played a part, they didn't really have a choice. They were changing payments without 30 days notice, which, in their TOS, it says they will give. So, they updated it to give 30 days notice when it was brought to their attention.