What is considered off topic?

[Latrinsorm]

Surely soccer is at least as related to the World Cup as IG pregnancy was to Narcissiia's story, wouldn't you say?

Soccer is definitely related to the World Cup. Baseball, however, is not.

[HarmNone]

It's off topic if the forum moderator, a super moderator, or an administrator, feels it's off topic, Latrinsorm.

Personally, I don't see that the discussion of RPing a pregnant character in GS in the referenced thread to be off-topic. The character is a character from GS and her backstory influences her roleplay in the game. People will have opinions about that, and those opinions are relevant. Apparently, the moderator of the topic, and the super moderators agree, as the discussion has been allowed.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't think either discussion was off-topic. What I don't see is how one is and one isn't. I also think that, as an administrative type, it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to say what off-topic is and simultaneously say it's at the mod's discretion.

[HarmNone]

It IS at the mod's discretion; however, Kranar or I can decide that something needs to go, or something needs to stay. We'd discuss our reasons for that with the moderator involved, in the staff folders. It's been done before, and will probably be done again. Thankfully, it is rarely necessary since the moderators do a great job of overseeing their folders.

As Kranar has explained to you before, you will not see total consistency here. It's just not possible with the volume on these boards, and the number of moderators we have...all of whom are definitely individual in their thinking.

[Back]

People are human. At least I hope they are!

So... it goes without saying. No one is perfect. Not us posters or the mods. We all try our best.

I know I've skirted the rules myself. I've been told off and I have to agree with almost every single post of mine thats been pulled :).

[Skirmisher]

This strikes me as being increasingly ill-defined. On the one hand, when there's a discussion about how good soccer/Euroball is in relation to real sports like baseball in a World Cup thread, that discussion is off-topic. On the other, when there's a discussion as to the merits of RPing a pregnant character in GS in a thread about the backstory of a character (who happened to be pregnant), the discussion is on-topic.Surely soccer is at least as related to the World Cup as IG pregnancy was to Narcissiia's story, wouldn't you say?

No.

[Asha]

Surely soccer is at least as related to the World Cup as IG pregnancy was to Narcissiia's story, wouldn't you say?
Umm yes?

[Leetahkin]

No.

I think it should be a yes too.

Maybe you skimmed it and was expecting him to compare baseball again to soccer, saying it's on topic?

[Skirmisher]

No.

[Leetahkin]

Well, instead of just a "NO", perhaps you could explain your answer.

[Skirmisher]

Because what was being done was to try to make as if comparing one thread to another and then actually change the hypothetical content but still be about the thread that was edited.

Cant change one without changing the other, so i reject it.

[Gan]

In addition, some people fail to see the evolution of the discussion at hand; and therefore claim the thread has gone off topic.

Because we (the common folk) are not privy to the discussions about moderating the boards and hot topics in general that are posted in the mod folders does not mean that they dont exist. Nor does it mean that inaction based on an individual's personal interpretation equates to inactivity or dereliction by the forum's staff.

Too bad some people will not hold themselves to the same degree of perfection or accountability as they do towards the staff who moderates using a discretionary authority style of administration. As Backlash directed, moderators are human too.

[Wezas]

As Backlash directed, moderators are human too.

Only since Tijay quit.

[CrystalTears]

In addition, some people fail to see the evolution of the discussion at hand; and therefore claim the thread has gone off topic. And that's mainly what the problem usually is. A conversation that is related to the discussion goes on a tangent, but still related. To some, if it veers even slightly from what they originally posted, they automatically define it as being off topic, and that's not usually the case. It really IS a case by case basis and decided upon by the moderator in charge of that folder.

I'd also like to point out that the reason that the first poster of a thread does not have the privilege to delete their post (ergo deleting the thread) was deliberate, as once you post a thread, it belongs to the forums and the community. It is not "yours" to dominate, control and moderate. That is up to staff to decide. This is what tends to cause a lot of bitterness and flaming in threads as well, when the original poster tries to tell people what to say in "their" thread and posters state it's not their right to tell them how to respond, ad nauseum. It belongs to everyone, not the original poster.

And I apologize somewhat for being mean in the thread, mostly cause I could have handled it better. People who delete their original post because the thread is going against their plan is a huge problem with me because I consider it a very cowardly move, so for that I'm not sorry about. Please, for the sanity of all, if you don't want people to comment on something you post, please don't post it. Spare everyone the drama of seeing something you liked being torn to shreds when you didn't want it to. That is the nature of forums.. to comment, good or bad.

[Sean]

Only since Tijay quit.

I've used my discretion and deemed this post as Off Topic.. plz remove.

[Asha]

It's off topic if the forum moderator, a super moderator, or an administrator, feels it's off topic.
No point arguing the matter.

[Hulkein]

If an off-topic thought is posted, but no mod is around to delete it, is it off-topic?

http://www.ucfv.bc.ca/biology/biol210/1999/FallenTree/pineforest.jpg

[Gan]

:rofl: @ Hulkein's post and picture enhancement.

[HarmNone]

:rofl:

Good one, Hulkein!

[Latrinsorm]

Cant change one without changing the other, so i reject it.I'm not sure I follow you here. If you're saying that they're either both on or off topic, then yes, I agree with you. If you're not, could you explain what you're trying to say a little more?
Nor does it mean that inaction based on an individual's personal interpretation equates to inactivity or dereliction by the forum's staff.I didn't think either of the examples given were off-topic, so I'm not really sure what you're saying here. What I didn't get was how HarmNone defined what off-topic content was could apply to both situations. Then what I didn't get was how HarmNone could define what off-topic content was and simultaneously say it's up to the mod's discretion.

The issue isn't perfection, it's the definition of what's off-topic (hence the thread title). If I had titled the thread "Mods should always be perfect and they're not", then yeah, I could see from where these reactions were coming.

[Gan]

I didn't think either of the examples given were off-topic, so I'm not really sure what you're saying here. What I didn't get was how HarmNone defined what off-topic content was could apply to both situations. Then what I didn't get was how HarmNone could define what off-topic content was and simultaneously say it's up to the mod's discretion.

Basically its the mod's interpretation of whether the post is in any way relating to the original topic or an evolving theme from the original topic.

The examples given in the beginning of this thread are pretty ambiguous to pin point a specific answer for you other than to say that:

Rule #1: All posts are evaluated for topic/off topic at the moderator's discretion based on .

Where I see your concern is there is no definate guideline as to how an off topic thread is determined.

My personal defination of an off topic post is when a post in a specific thread has no subject matter pertaining to or relating to the original post in that thread or the post in question does not have any common themes evolving or spinning off the theme of the original post.

Your question is why isnt a definition of 'off topic' contained in the Forum Violations folder.

That specifically I can not answer. Perhaps this is the intention of Kranar and Harmnone so as to allow freedom for posters and moderators to continue to evolve as well as this forum to evolve. Think of it as majestic vagueness, much like our US Constitution.

[HarmNone]

Latrinsorm, it appears that we (you, me, the mods and super mods) don't agree on the applicability of the comparison between the two threads. We don't see a comparison. You do. Such is life.

There is a hierarchy here, of sorts. The moderators are in charge of their individual topics. They are overseen by the super moderators, who are overseen by Kranar and I. The moderators are given the freedom to decide what fits, and what doesn't fit, in their individual folders. When it comes to generalities, like off-topic posts, the various moderators have varying tolerances.

Within this framework, a moderator could decide that a given post, or part of a post, is not suitable for his/her folder...be it because it's off-topic, or because the moderator feels it breaks TOS, or because the moderator feels it ruins the integrity of a given thread. They can delete or edit, in a case like that. When they do so, the deleted post/thread, or the edited post is moved to the staff folders for viewing by the rest of the staff. If a question arises, the super moderators and administrators have the chance to give input into the situation, as do the other moderators. Occasionally, a delete/edit will be found to have been done in error, or in haste, and reconsidered. That's rarely the case, and we do agree the majority of the time. Our moderators are pretty darned good at what they do, in my opinion.

While our decisions may not always fit with your feelings on a subject, they don't really have to. There will be as many who don't agree with you as do, just as there will be as many who don't agree with staff's decisions as do. We, the staff, are charged with making those decisions and we do that, as Kranar said, the best way we know how.

So, while I can define what's off-topic to me, I can't define what's off-topic to you, or to any one of the moderators. If a post, or thread, is brought into contention, it is considered in the staff folders and action is taken based on what's discussed there. In most cases, the moderator's decision, as involves that moderator's topic, will hold sway. Occasionally, changes will be made based on input by super moderators, other moderators, a change of heart by the original moderator who edited/deleted, or by Kranar or I. It may go your way, it may not.

[HarmNone]

The reason there is no explanation of "off-topic" in the Violations folder is because it's such an amorphous subject. Some off-topic posts are basically harmless, they don't take a thread into the hinterlands, and are just made in jest, or in answer to another post. Those, generally, are left. Otherwise, we'd do nothing but delete off-topic posts. ;)

It's just too broad an area to define with a tight little rule. That's where staff discretion comes into play, and why we value our moderators and super moderators so highly. They often walk a tight line, and they do it well.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

While I understand how that works (as I said privately to you, HarmNone, I moderate at a few others boards including one of the biggest on the Net) with the bottom up chain of deciding what's off-topic, without defining what is and is not, it begins to look clique-ish. Honestly, I could care less what happened in my last posted thread, given that these boards aren't my life and Gemstone isn't my life. But I got a ton of PMs from people telling me to not only ignore the people posting but that the cliques on these boards have moderators included.

Not judging by my own experience (which I wouldn't say indicates a mod being in a clique but more a lack of judgement on more than one person's part, including myself),and instead lurking in certain sub-topics I rarely ever post in, I know even as an outsider it really looks like if you're in with the right Mod you can post whatever the hell you want, while if you're new or you're disliked, everything you post can be scrutinized and editted.

Latrinsorm hit the nail on the head-- Mods are not perfect, and the only way to avoid that sort of thing would be to have a uniform rule (that could be BENT at the Moderator's discretion but at least it draws a line).

One of the other forums I moderate at has a TOS (Terms of Service) that has rules about which threads get deleted, etc. This way, when someone PMs me all pissed off that I deleted their thread, I can quote the part of the TOS they violated and fire it off. It makes it less personal and more fair seeming, and it seems to make it easier for the person who offended.

Obviously, I don't expect any of this to happen, because this isn't that other board and the people running this can do as they damn well please. I suppose you could even make a posting TOS saying, "If we don't like it, we delete it, tough shit." Or you could just say, "It's not changing." I'm definitely not demanding any of this stuff be done, it's just how I've seen it done before and it cuts out a lot of the excess crap.

[Gan]

You lost my support for your thoughts when you mentioned:



...I moderate at a few others boards including one of the biggest on the Net)

And when you started talking about 'cliques'.

Everything else just sounded like sour grapes.

[Latrinsorm]

Where I see your concern is there is no definate guideline as to how an off topic thread is determined.That's not quite it. The concern is HarmNone specifically said "Any thoughts or opinions on that subject are, therefore, on topic as related to the story.", which is a definite guideline on what's on topic. How this gets turned into moderator discretion is my concern. If it was just HarmNone saying that or just moderator discretion, I wouldn't be asking the question. It being both is what doesn't make a lick of sense.
While our decisions may not always fit with your feelings on a subject, they don't really have to.I've yet to bring up my feelings (I'm a little hungry with a forecast of contentment at the moment). All I'm saying is the current definition of off-topic is dual and incoherent. That's not a feeling, it's a fact.
I suppose you could even make a posting TOS saying, "If we don't like it, we delete it, tough shit."We do have a TOS, and that statement is more or less part of it; that is, the administrators have complete authority.

[Miss X]

Hi there,

Firstly let me say, as a super moderator I can absolutely assure you that any kind of clique or group that may have formed does not have an effect on the moderation of these forums.

There may well be a group of us that are quite friendly and close and tend to populate the PC chat, however we have no problem editing or deleting posts made by those who are part of our group. Let's take Xyelin for example, you can bet your life we've had to edit his posts before yet we <3 him and chat with him every day.

I'd love to know who these tonnes of people are that PM'd you about all the cliques. I would strongly advise you ignore their obvious shit stirring. That's all it is. When I am editing or deleting posts/threads, I don't care who the poster is, it holds no significance at all. In fact, I believe I've even deleted posts made by my fellow moderators.

Harmnone has already said, the individual moderators decide what needs to be removed. Then you have CT, Peam and Myself who oversee those threads and will take action when necessary. Failing that, Harmnone and Kranar are also around to oversee every thread. Of course things get missed sometimes but I think we have an excellent team for the most part.

[Kranar]

Off-topic posts are what 90% of people here think they are. The rule regarding off-topic posts is reposted here as follows:



Any member who makes an off-topic post may, at the sole discretion of the appropriate moderator or administrator, have their post removed or the off-topic content edited out of the post. For a generally off-topic post, no violation count increase will be issued, however, an increase of 2 may be issued if a pattern of repeated off-topic posts is found to be disruptive.


Notice that whether an off-topic post is removed or not is solely at the discretion of the appropriate moderator or administrator, where the appropriate moderator refers to the particular forum moderators, and all super moderators. That means a post may be off-topic but not removed. In fact, this is the only rule for which it is explicitely stated that even if a post is found to be entirely off-topic, even after much debate and investigating, the moderator or administrator can freely decide to leave it there at his or her discretion.

So yes, a post may be judged to be off-topic and still be allowed to remain because it makes the thread more interesting, it's off-topic but funny, or who knows what.

Whereas if any other situation is judged and determined to be a violation, we are required to resolve it and remove it from the forums, off-topic posts are not required to be removed. Also note that no violation count increase is issued for off-topic posts.

[HarmNone]

We do, indeed, have a TOS, Narcissiia. It includes a list of specific violations, an explanation of the point system we use to deal with posters who just can't seem to get the message of what is, or is not, acceptable, and a general TOS. There are explanations of certain parts of TOS that might be confusing. However, I'm not going to try to define what is "off-topic" in a forum with over 20,000 threads. It's going to be different for each topic, each thread, and each moderator. That's how these boards have always run, and it is at the behest of the board owner. In most cases, common sense will tell you if you're off topic. Sometimes, there are grey areas. In those cases, staff will make the decision as to what is, or is not, off topic.

As to flames, they're going to happen. These boards do require a thick skin. Again, that has always been their nature. If they get really personal (having to do with someone's personal life, not the life of an imaginary character in a roleplaying game), they'll be removed if, and when, one of staff sees them. If you feel something is an obvious, and deeply personal, flame...well, use the Report function. We'll be glad to take a look at it.

These boards are not meant to be overly restrictive, nor are they meant to be chaos central (although, it may seem so, at times :D ). We try to walk a fine line between the two extremes.

[HarmNone]

So yes, a post may be judged to be off-topic and still be allowed to remain because it makes the thread more interesting, it's off-topic but funny, or who knows what.

Whereas if any other situation is judged and determined to be a violation, we are required to resolve it and remove it from the forums, off-topic posts are not required to be removed. Also note that no violation count increase is issued for off-topic posts.

I think these are the really salient points. Sometimes, off-topic posts add interest to a thread, or humor, or a different slant on an issue. Sometimes, they're purely disruptive, or lead to outright flaming. It's in those cases that off-topic posts might be removed. Since no points are issued for off-topic posts, I have a little trouble understanding why such a big deal is made of their removal; especially when, as in the case of the World Cup thread, the moderator offered the opportunity to make another thread to discuss the merits (or lack of same) of various sports. :shrug:

[Drew]

I have a little trouble understanding why such a big deal is made of their removal; especially when, as in the case of the World Cup thread, the moderator offered the opportunity to make another thread to discuss the merits (or lack of same) of various sports. :shrug:



I think it's that everyone in that thread was happy discussing soccer in relation to other sports and a new thread didn't need to be made. If everyone is participating in a conversation and a moderator ends the conversation just for the sake of "moderating" what's been accomplished? You just took a good discussion that people were enjoying it replaced it with silence. The topic would have gone back to the World Cup the next World Cup game that was played anyway.

[HarmNone]

If the topic returns to discussing the World Cup, Drew, that was the moderator's intent, since that is, indeed, the subject of the thread. As I see it, the moderator didn't end the conversation. She simply requested that a new venue be found for it, and she certainly didn't do it "just for the sake of 'moderating'".

Starting a new thread to discuss comparisons between different sports and events would have simply made another discussion area available for those who weren't really that interested in the World Cup, while removing some of what the World Cup fans might consider "clutter". I still can't see this as that big a deal.

[Drew]

Well I imagine you'd have to ask everyone who was involved in the discussion that got cut off (coincidentally, the same people who were discussing the world cup) if they weren't enjoying the conversation.


I at least like what you do Harmnone where you cut all the posts "off topic" and make a new thread a la Solkern's avatar. But that was strictly and entirely off topic. The world cup thread could have been split into many discussions if we are gonna enforce a silly level of on topic-ness:

World cup only discussion
soccer/football vs. other sports
Premier league vs Italian league
Quality of international referees
David Beckham and Posh Spice
etc etc etc


Unless something is so off topic that people coming to the thread would have no interest in it (Solkern's avatar) the discussion should be allowed to continue.

[HarmNone]

That's how you see it, Drew. I respect that. However, that is not how the thread moderator saw/sees it, and it is at his/her discretion.

As to your list of discussions, World cup, Premier league vs Italian league, David Beckham and Posh Spice (if they're soccer players), and quality of international referees (soccer referees, that is) are all related pretty closely, as I see it. They're all about soccer. They're not about baseball, or basketball, or North American Bird Calls...or Solkern's avatar.

In my opinion, and in the moderator's opinion, comparisons of various sports would be better served by its own thread, since there are so many sports to be discussed. Those who are reading to find out how the World Cup is going don't have to wade through all the discussions that have nothing whatsoever to do with the World Cup in order to find the information they're looking for in a World Cup discussion folder. Believe it, or not, but I'd be willing to bet that some people were, in fact, completely uninterested in discussing baseball, or American football, in that thread.

It's a judgement call. In this case, your judgement leads you one way and the moderator's judgement (and mine) led her another. That's going to happen. There's certainly nothing personal in it, and it was done to facilitate a more cohesive thread, as I see it. I can't fault the moderator for that.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

You lost my support for your thoughts when you mentioned:



And when you started talking about 'cliques'.

Everything else just sounded like sour grapes.

I already mentioned that I didn't feel a TOS change would do anything for my own personal experience, since that was more of a personal thing, therefore I fail to see the "sour grapes" part of my post. And the mention of where I moderate is just a plain fact, to demonstrate that I've seen first hand the challenge of moderating a big forum. How big a forum is makes a big difference in policy and such, as HarmNone said herself this forum is big enough to where it'd be a bit of a headache to try to make a major change like that, if it's not in place when the forum is still small. If the forum is small, obviously there's not usually a problem with things like what's offtopic and appropriate and inappropriate.

As for cliques, everything we socially do in life has cliques so to deny they exist is pretty futile. People usually cluster together, and I won't say I'm excluded from being in cliques because I *am* in them as much as anyone else. Generally however, it's not good for the people with authority to be thought of as excluding their clique from their authority, hence why I made the comment. If you don't like me because I merely restated something many people have PMed to me and said in private IMs and chats, that is your peragotive. I never said that "Moderator favoritism" factually occurs, or that I even think it is for sure happening, it just *seems* like it does at times and I'm not the first or only person to observe that. A political quote I've always liked goes perfectly for this sort of the situation-- Sometimes, it's not what's actually happening that matters but what people THINK is actually happening. Thank you for the specific post addressing the issue, Miss X, and I do agree that for the most part, the Moderating team does a good job.

And specifically to HarmNone-- the size of this forum and the expectation of posters is pretty much set in stone, hence why I didn't make a silly demand for a change. Only noted the way I've seen it done, the problems with the current system, and what *could* be done if you all felt so inclined to do it (not that you do). And yes, there is a TOS but what would make a post deletable is not entirely and specifically addressed. Once again, you're correct that this forum is pretty much past that stage but that's what I was referring to, a posting TOS about what warrants a delete and a ban. I'd say this forum is way nicer in reference to the point system and banning.. most of the others I'm at if you fuck up once, you're banned. >.< Ouch.

[Skirmisher]

I at least like what you do Harmnone where you cut all the posts "off topic" and make a new thread a la Solkern's avatar. But that was strictly and entirely off topic. The world cup thread could have been split into many discussions if we are gonna enforce a silly level of on topic-ness:
.
I deleted ONE post after giving two warnings and asking the off topic posts to move to a new thread.

If that was enough to kill the "spirited" discussion, perhaps it didnt have as much steam left as you seem to think.

[HarmNone]

Narcissiia, ban is warranted if a poster collects a total of 50 points. This, along with how points are assessed, accrued, and reduced over time is explained in the Announcements/Forum Violations. For the most part, the information in that folder will define what will constitute a deletion/edit. The exception will be with off-topic posts, as Kranar explained earlier.

[Skirmisher]

As for cliques, everything we socially do in life has cliques so to deny they exist is pretty futile. People usually cluster together, and I won't say I'm excluded from being in cliques because I *am* in them as much as anyone else. Generally however, it's not good for the people with authority to be thought of as excluding their clique from their authority, hence why I made the comment. If you don't like me because I merely restated something many people have PMed to me and said in private IMs and chats, that is your peragotive. I never said that "Moderator favoritism" factually occurs, or that I even think it is for sure happening, it just *seems* like it does at times and I'm not the first or only person to observe that. .

Ive had posts edited and edited other mods posts.

Does it happen often? No, because generally one mod will ask another to edit their own post rather than do it for them.

But it definitely happens.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Narcissiia, ban is warranted if a poster collects a total of 50 points. This, along with how points are assessed, accrued, and reduced over time is explained in the Announcements/Forum Violations. For the most part, the information in that folder will define what will constitute a deletion/edit. The exception will be with off-topic posts, as Kranar explained earlier.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.. this forum is nicer when it comes to banning! And yeah I re-looked over what the TOS said, as I said before, it was the off-topic that I suggested could be added (since off-topic seems to be the sticking point when it comes to deletion).

[HarmNone]

Another thing that has to be considered is this:

What "seems" to be true isn't always true, simply because the persons who are assuming a truth are often unaware of many of the nuances involved in the issue. A lot goes on here, behind the scenes, that is not known to the average poster.

People tend to notice pretty quickly if one of their posts is pulled or edited, but they're not near so quick to notice that several other posts, from different posters, were also pulled/edited. It seems to them they're being singled out when, in fact, they are not. They're simply more aware of what happens to them than they are of what happens to others.

I don't care who the moderator is, what forum they're active on, or how hard they try to be fair, they're going to take heat from time to time if they're doing their job at all. That's inherent in the position.

[Drew]

It's a judgement call. In this case, your judgement leads you one way and the moderator's judgement (and mine) led her another. That's going to happen. There's certainly nothing personal in it, and it was done to facilitate a more cohesive thread, as I see it. I can't fault the moderator for that.

Yeah I don't take it to heart, like I said in whatever thread Xyelin started to whine, it's just a tiny gemstone IV message board. The less drama related to me on here, the better.

[HarmNone]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.. this forum is nicer when it comes to banning! And yeah I re-looked over what the TOS said, as I said before, it was the off-topic that I suggested could be added (since off-topic seems to be the sticking point when it comes to deletion).

We are, in my opinion, very lenient when it comes to what people can and can't do. It's not easy to get banned here. You have to really work at it! :D

As I tried to explain, off-topic is always going to be a bit tricky and there's not much we can do about it. With the discretionary authority given the moderators in their respective folders, there will be inconsistencies. I'll always be more than glad to explain my position on an issue to anyone who asks me.

[Alfster]

Not judging by my own experience (which I wouldn't say indicates a mod being in a clique but more a lack of judgement on more than one person's part, including myself),and instead lurking in certain sub-topics I rarely ever post in, I know even as an outsider it really looks like if you're in with the right Mod you can post whatever the hell you want, while if you're new or you're disliked, everything you post can be scrutinized and editted.


Show me a situation where if you're in with the right Mod you can post whatever the hell you want. Without any actual proof, you're just pointing fingers and being laughed at. I've never once seen a mod bend over backwards for someone inside their "clique". And yes, if you're disliked everything you post will be scrutinized by everyone and if you post something that's outside of TOS my guess it will be edited.


As for cliques, everything we socially do in life has cliques so to deny they exist is pretty futile. People usually cluster together, and I won't say I'm excluded from being in cliques because I *am* in them as much as anyone else. Generally however, it's not good for the people with authority to be thought of as excluding their clique from their authority, hence why I made the comment. If you don't like me because I merely restated something many people have PMed to me and said in private IMs and chats, that is your peragotive. I never said that "Moderator favoritism" factually occurs, or that I even think it is for sure happening, it just *seems* like it does at times and I'm not the first or only person to observe that. A political quote I've always liked goes perfectly for this sort of the situation-- Sometimes, it's not what's actually happening that matters but what people THINK is actually happening. Thank you for the specific post addressing the issue, Miss X, and I do agree that for the most part, the Moderating team does a good job.


Since you keep referring to these "cliques" that are in existence, I'd like to hear who you think is in a clique and show me some proof that what you're claiming actually happens. I just don't see any mods who decide that because they like someone they wont edit or change their post. Just because you're not the first, or only person to observe that doesn't mean shit. You people need to actually have proof of such things before you start going off because people didn't like your story. Zomg, they made fun of my story! I NEED TO EDIT IT NOW.

Seriously, stfu

[Sean]

Odds on Leetahkin responding to Alfsters post trying to make herself a martyr and rehashing the same shit? 50/50? 70/30?

[Alfster]

It was my assumption that the "numerous" Pm's were from her, so i'd say it's a safe bet

[Back]

About the clique thing... sure there are cliques. The PC is a clique in and of itself.

There is also the “jerk-each-other-off” clique which Alfster and Xyelin are proud members of.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Since you keep referring to these "cliques" that are in existence, I'd like to hear who you think is in a clique and show me some proof that what you're claiming actually happens. I just don't see any mods who decide that because they like someone they wont edit or change their post. Just because you're not the first, or only person to observe that doesn't mean shit. You people need to actually have proof of such things before you start going off because people didn't like your story. Zomg, they made fun of my story! I NEED TO EDIT IT NOW.

Seriously, stfu

Quick suggestions:

Step 1: Reread my posts.

Step 2: Post something intelligent for once, actually making sense in relation to what I've said.

Step 3: Remember the valuable lesson you learned here today.

:heart:

[HarmNone]

Show me a situation where if you're in with the right Mod you can post whatever the hell you want. Without any actual proof, you're just pointing fingers and being laughed at. I've never once seen a mod bend over backwards for someone inside their "clique". And yes, if you're disliked everything you post will be scrutinized by everyone and if you post something that's outside of TOS my guess it will be edited.


Heh. There's no way that being in with the "right Mod" is going to allow a poster free reign on these boards. Fortunately, there's too much individuality within the moderator group to allow that to happen! :D

I wouldn't say that if someone is "disliked", in general, their posts will be scrutinized more heavily. However, if someone is known to be prone to disruptive posting, or to riding the ragged edge of TOS, that person's posts will certainly receive a closer look. That goes without saying. It's always been that way here. Rather than just ban someone for stepping out of line, we try to warn, issue points as seems warranted, and watch further posts to ensure that the behavior doesn't continue unabated.

In the case of attention whores, I'll sometimes just ignore them in hope that they'll stop when the requisite attention isn't received. Problem is, they always get the attention they're seeking from other posters, so...well, my way usually doesn't work very well. :rofl:

[Back]

Show me a situation where if you're in with the right Mod you can post whatever the hell you want. Without any actual proof, you're just pointing fingers and being laughed at. I've never once seen a mod bend over backwards for someone inside their "clique". And yes, if you're disliked everything you post will be scrutinized by everyone and if you post something that's outside of TOS my guess it will be edited.

Well, we know who isn’t in with the right mod considering how much you bitched about something not too long ago... yeah, so you are puckering up and kissing ass now.

You are working backwards on a dumbass conclusion. Being friends with a mod = you can do whatever you want. We all know thats not the case, never has been, never will be.

Lets take the World Cup thread as an example. Skirm decided to delete posts she felt were off-topic in her thread. Thats her call. Did she like or dislike any of the posters who she decided were off-topic? Having been around a while I would say probably not. Then again, who knows?

Now lets look at The Apology thread. It was moderated quickly and put into the proper topic. Some might conclude that it went off-topic, but Soulpieced who moderates that thread did not decide to do anything. Is Soulpieced more fond of one poster over another? Again, having been around a while, I would say probably not. Then again, who knows?

But here is the clincher. In that topic CT, a Super Moderator, got involved. She has more authority than the regular moderator. The regular moderator may not have been around to do anything if they thought it needed to be done. But CT, a Super Moderator, was there and decided not to do anything.

Now, we all know CT wants PB’s cock. Was that why she decided not to do anything and jump in on the bashing? We all know CT hates Atheana. Did she correlate Narcissiia with Atheana and decided not to do anything and then jump in on the bashing? Having been around a while and knowing certain peoples predisposition’s could lead to questions about some people’s objectivity concerning the ambiguous grey area surrounding the “off-topic” clause.

Especially when you consider a newbie’s point of view.

[Artha]

The cool thing about these forums is that more than one person can moderate any given thread. Both admins and however many super mods, plus the topic moderators. Being friends with one of these people isn't ever going to be enough to not get a blatantly bad post pulled.

[HarmNone]

Umm, I was around, too. I have, presumably, more "authority" than CT, and I didn't do anything either. Does that mean I want PB's cock, as well? (Gah!...no offense, PB, but, ummmm...nope!). To surmise in that manner is patently absurd.

The reason I didn't remove posts in that thread is that I didn't find them off-topic. The topic is Roleplaying. That's the reason for the existance of the folder. Someone posted the backstory of a roleplayed character in GS in the General Gemstone folder. I moved it to the Roleplaying folder because it seemed to fit there, since it's about.......ROLEPLAY (Stay with me here. We're in the ROLEPLAYING folder).

Once the backstory was posted, a discussion ensued with regard to the ROLEPLAY involved. Some posters didn't like the style of ROLEPLAY and made that abundantly clear. The original poster took umbrage with those who denigrated her ROLEPLAYING style.

Am I getting across? The whole thing is about ROLEPLAYING. Whether someone is approving or disapproving of the roleplay style inherent in the backstory as presented, they're still talking about roleplay. That's what the folder is for. That's what happened. That's why posts weren't removed for being off-topic. They're on topic, in my opinion, in the moderator's opinion, and in the super moderator's opinion. Why is this so difficult to grasp, and why do we have to come up with some conspiracy to explain it?

[Snapp]

Now, we all know CT wants PB’s cock.

:rofl:


Did she correlate Narcissiia with Atheana...blahblahconspiracy
I correlated Narcissiia with "she who must not be named" too. She's the one who made the whole "editing out your posts because you didn't like the direction of the thread" famous.

[Back]

Am I getting across? The whole thing is about ROLEPLAYING. Whether someone is approving or disapproving of the roleplay style inherent in the backstory as presented, they're still talking about roleplay. That's what the folder is for. That's what happened. That's why posts weren't removed for being off-topic. They're on topic, in my opinion, in the moderator's opinion, and in the super moderator's opinion. Why is this so difficult to grasp, and why do we have to come up with some conspiracy to explain it?

Just saying, for all intents and purposes, from the outside things can appear differently from how the inside works.

Its rare that I disagree with the moderators here. Especially in the case of real assholes bitching about how they can’t grief someone and get away with it because of moderation. But this case... nah, I see a failing and I’m voicing my opinion on it.

[Hulkein]

CT abuses me. :(

[Back]

:rofl:


I correlated Narcissiia with "she who must not be named" too. She's the one who made the whole "editing out your posts because you didn't like the direction of the thread" famous.

She did. But with an entirely different, if not completely opposite, modus operandi.

[CrystalTears]

I'm just going to say this one thing to you, Backlash. You don't know anything about me, so don't ever try to presume what I do and why. The end.

[HarmNone]

CT abuses me. :(

She abuses me, too, Hulkein!:help:

[Back]

I'm just going to say this one thing to you, Backlash. You don't know anything about me, so don't ever try to presume what I do and why. The end.

Fair enough. I just hope I’m not under your moderating (or non-moderating) scrutiny now. :)

[Gan]

Its funny how Harmnone equates Backlash's post regarding CT and PB's cock as a conspiracy.

ZOMG A Conspiracy! Who's have thought Backlash possible of another conspiracy, especially when the topic is not political. Backlash's modus operandi is conspiracies. I'm suprised there's not a picture of him under the topic Conspiracy in wikipedia for most dilligent follower.

:rofl:

Backlash, your comment regarding CT was completely insulting and uncalled for... and immature. Unfortunately it was not suprising.

You win the prize in this thread.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Umm, I was around, too. I have, presumably, more "authority" than CT, and I didn't do anything either. Does that mean I want PB's cock, as well? (Gah!...no offense, PB, but, ummmm...nope!). To surmise in that manner is patently absurd.

The reason I didn't remove posts in that thread is that I didn't find them off-topic. The topic is Roleplaying. That's the reason for the existance of the folder. Someone posted the backstory of a roleplayed character in GS in the General Gemstone folder. I moved it to the Roleplaying folder because it seemed to fit there, since it's about.......ROLEPLAY (Stay with me here. We're in the ROLEPLAYING folder).

Once the backstory was posted, a discussion ensued with regard to the ROLEPLAY involved. Some posters didn't like the style of ROLEPLAY and made that abundantly clear. The original poster took umbrage with those who denigrated her ROLEPLAYING style.

Am I getting across? The whole thing is about ROLEPLAYING. Whether someone is approving or disapproving of the roleplay style inherent in the backstory as presented, they're still talking about roleplay. That's what the folder is for. That's what happened. That's why posts weren't removed for being off-topic. They're on topic, in my opinion, in the moderator's opinion, and in the super moderator's opinion. Why is this so difficult to grasp, and why do we have to come up with some conspiracy to explain it?

Well, like I said before, that thread had nothing to do with my own opinion on the way as a whole these boards are moderated. I felt that was more a result of poor personal choices from more than one person, myself included, and others who know how I feel.

As for me deleting original content in my thread-- I don't apologize or regret doing what this forum allows me to do. I was working within the mechanics, one could say. Compare me to whoever you want (considering I don't know them anyway), these boards aren't my life and given the other stuff I've been called, being compared to someone who is no one to me doesn't really phase me much. Nor does being called a baby, a whiner, or a bitch by people I neither like, ever liked, respect, or ever respected much. *shrug*

[Artha]

It obviously did bother you, or you wouldn't have changed the original post or defended yourself so adamantly.

Anyway, just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

It obviously did bother you, or you wouldn't have changed the original post or defended yourself so adamantly.

Anyway, just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.

Having RP insulted for no good reason DOES upset me, never said it didn't. :)

As for changing the original post, I've already explained why I did it.

And, just because I can means that I can. And I did. And that's that.

[Drew]

Backlash, your comment regarding CT was completely insulting and uncalled for... and immature. Unfortunately it was not suprising.

You win the prize in this thread.


I never agree with Backlash on politics but it's obvious he was just joking, no need to get all upset.

[Alfster]

Quick suggestions:

Step 1: Reread my posts.

Step 2: Post something intelligent for once, actually making sense in relation to what I've said.

Step 3: Remember the valuable lesson you learned here today.

:heart:


I'd love to go back and read your posts but you edit/delete them to fast

[Alfster]

Well, we know who isn’t in with the right mod considering how much you bitched about something not too long ago... yeah, so you are puckering up and kissing ass now.


Yes, I'm kissing ass by saying that mods don't pick favorites. I didn't start that thread, I was going to let it go. I am somewhat glad that the thread was made just because at least it makes sense to me now. I agree with it being personal information (not so much the insulting part, but it's still personal I suppose). But that's done.



You are working backwards on a dumbass conclusion. Being friends with a mod = you can do whatever you want. We all know thats not the case, never has been, never will be.

You people are saying it looks like it...which makes me wonder how you dipshits get to that conclusion.



Lets take the World Cup thread as an example. Skirm decided to delete posts she felt were off-topic in her thread. Thats her call. Did she like or dislike any of the posters who she decided were off-topic? Having been around a while I would say probably not. Then again, who knows?

Seriously man, that thread's about soccer. No one cares.



Now lets look at The Apology thread. It was moderated quickly and put into the proper topic. Some might conclude that it went off-topic, but Soulpieced who moderates that thread did not decide to do anything. Is Soulpieced more fond of one poster over another? Again, having been around a while, I would say probably not. Then again, who knows?

Having not been around a while you'd come to the same conclusion, had you actually read the entire first post before deletion/editing. In her second paragraph she gave a quick overview of the story talking about how her character was pregnant. How is talking about pregnancy off topic?



But here is the clincher. In that topic CT, a Super Moderator, got involved. She has more authority than the regular moderator. The regular moderator may not have been around to do anything if they thought it needed to be done. But CT, a Super Moderator, was there and decided not to do anything.

Because nothing was off topic. Why does CT not doing anything mean more than Kranar not doing anything? He has more power than her and he doesn't seem to think anything was wrong.



Now, we all know CT wants PB’s cock. Was that why she decided not to do anything and jump in on the bashing? We all know CT hates Atheana. Did she correlate Narcissiia with Atheana and decided not to do anything and then jump in on the bashing? Having been around a while and knowing certain peoples predisposition’s could lead to questions about some people’s objectivity concerning the ambiguous grey area surrounding the “off-topic” clause.

I must have missed this "bashing" session your talking about. The beautiful thing about off topic posts is that you gain no points toward being banned. All the mods are saying is that you're not being on topic AND TO MOVE IT ELSEWHERE. Instead of crying about the topic, any one of you could have gone out and made a thread comparing the two sports. There was nothing against TOS except that the discussion should be moved to it's own thread.



Especially when you consider a newbie’s point of view.

N00bs suck.

[Alfster]

About the clique thing... sure there are cliques. The PC is a clique in and of itself.

There is also the “jerk-each-other-off” clique which Alfster and Xyelin are proud members of.

Aww, sad you're not invited?

[HarmNone]

Well, like I said before, that thread had nothing to do with my own opinion on the way as a whole these boards are moderated. I felt that was more a result of poor personal choices from more than one person, myself included, and others who know how I feel.

As for me deleting original content in my thread-- I don't apologize or regret doing what this forum allows me to do. I was working within the mechanics, one could say. Compare me to whoever you want (considering I don't know them anyway), these boards aren't my life and given the other stuff I've been called, being compared to someone who is no one to me doesn't really phase me much. Nor does being called a baby, a whiner, or a bitch by people I neither like, ever liked, respect, or ever respected much. *shrug*

These boards are a very open forum. We've never claimed to be otherwise. We don't tightly control what's said here like the official boards do. The official boards exist for people who prefer that format, and I certainly understand those who do. These boards are certainly not for the sensitive. It only takes a short visit to see that.

The current PC boards do allow the deletion of an original post by a poster (our previous boards did not), so you didn't break TOS by deleting yours. However, if a poster does decide to delete a post to which there have been responses, there will be repercussions through comments and opinions by other posters. That, again, is the nature of these boards. If it bothers you, these boards are probably not the place for you. From what you've said here, it doesn't really bother you. That's a good thing. One gets along best here if one has the hide of a rhino. That allows one to ignore that which they don't care about and move on to that which they do care about. :)

[HarmNone]

That's not quite it. The concern is HarmNone specifically said "Any thoughts or opinions on that subject are, therefore, on topic as related to the story.", which is a definite guideline on what's on topic. How this gets turned into moderator discretion is my concern. If it was just HarmNone saying that or just moderator discretion, I wouldn't be asking the question. It being both is what doesn't make a lick of sense.I've yet to bring up my feelings (I'm a little hungry with a forecast of contentment at the moment). All I'm saying is the current definition of off-topic is dual and incoherent. That's not a feeling, it's a fact.We do have a TOS, and that statement is more or less part of it; that is, the administrators have complete authority.

At risk of bringing up yet another convoluted post insisting that your view is the correct view, I'm going to try one more time to explain this, Latrinsorm:

I gave MY opinion on why the posts in a given thread were on-topic, not off-topic. You've jumped on that opinon as the be-all and end-all. It isn't. It's just my opinion. It so happened, in this case, that my opinion agreed with that of the moderator and super moderator involved.

Now, when posts in a thread are in contention, the first call goes to the forum moderator. That's moderator discretion. IF the posts remain in contention, and discussion is ongoing about the content, the super moderators may take a look. Super moderator opinion will override the topic moderator's opinion, if the two are different. (Remember, the matter is probably being discussed during this entire process. The discussion takes place in the staff folders, which are not visible to you.) Should the decision of the thread moderator(s) and the super moderator(s) agree, yet the contention about the content still remains, the matter will fall to the administrator(s). At this point, Kranar (or I) will look at the issue. We may agree or disagree with the decisions made by other staff to this point. It is only at this point that we might override both moderator and supermoderator discretion. It's what I meant when I said there is a hierarchy. The last word on TOS and post suitability falls to Kranar, if things get that far.

Therefore, moderator discretion can exist simultaneously with the existance of super moderator and/or administrator overrride capability. It's not that complex, nor that rare, a method for running a message board. I think it works well, in most cases, because it allows a number of different opinions and ideas to be considered when dealing with contentious matters. :)

[Parkbandit]

Now, we all know CT wants PB’s cock. Was that why she decided not to do anything and jump in on the bashing?

She's a female... it's only natural.

Really, you should go re-read that thread from the beginning.. and if the original poster didn't go and edit out all her posts, you would (probably with some help) figure out that it was the original poster that pulled the thread from a roleplay about being pregnant into the mess it became. Page 2 I believe would be where it strayed.. starting right after my first post.

[Parkbandit]

Does that mean I want PB's cock, as well? (Gah!...no offense, PB, but, ummmm...nope!). To surmise in that manner is patently absurd.


This post has been reported for outright lying. Did you really have to use the term "GAH" with a fucking "!" after it? I mean come on...

[HarmNone]

This post has been reported for outright lying. Did you really have to use the term "GAH" with a fucking "!" after it? I mean come on...

Hee! I knew that would get your...erm, dander up! :D


:whistle:

[Parkbandit]

Aww, sad you're not invited?

First my penis.. now Alfster and X jerking off. Clearly, he's trying to tell us something.

Let it out Backlash... you'll feel better having that weight off your shoulders.

[Hulkein]

FREE XCALIBUR!

[Solkern]

I'd like to apply for a super moderator position

just under kranar, and over HN

i have no qualifactions

other then, i'm just bored

[Drew]

Hee! I knew that would get your...erm, dander up! :D



Well when it comes to PB I heard that's about all there is left that can get up!

[Parkbandit]

Well when it comes to PB I heard that's about all there is left that can get up!

I wish your mom would stop spreading rumors. The only reason I couldn't get up was I didn't find her attractive.

[HarmNone]

Just show her your dander, PB. She'll sing a different tune then! :whistle:

[Parkbandit]

Just show her your dander, PB. She'll sing a different tune then! :whistle:

POST REPORTED:

Slander on my Dander

I'll have Harmnone banned within the week.