Puncture to the eye.

[Lucas]

How devestating is aiming for the eye and doing puncture damage? Around what endroll will I need for a kill crit? Are undead susceptible the same?

[Olanan]

We need more info.

Are you ambushing or using archery?

What weapon, if ambushing?

What kind of bow if archery?

Undead are succeptable to eye criticals, I think. Don't quote me on that.

[Latrinsorm]

There are a bunch of puncture immune undead, so don't bank on eye-killing undead.

A crit rank of 4 is all that's required to cause a death with a puncture to the eye. What endroll depends on %chance desired, weapon base used, armor of creature, redux of creature, padding of creature, weighting of character, and any other DF mods (perfect forged weapons, for instance).

It can be very deadly when used properly.

[KrolvinScout]

Not that the endroll is anything special and low..But I thought I'd paste anyways. Hiding, aiming for the left eye, first shot. 13 trains heh.

You nock a wooden arrow in your stained sephwir longbow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a Neartofar troll!
AS: +158 vs DS: +42 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +52 = +195
... and hit for 50 points of damage!
Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!
The Neartofar troll falls to the ground and dies.
The deep blue glow leaves a Neartofar troll.
The wooden arrow sticks in a Neartofar troll's left eye!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[Stanley Burrell]

There are a bunch of puncture immune undead, so don't bank on eye-killing undead.

A crit rank of 4 is all that's required to cause a death with a puncture to the eye. What endroll depends on %chance desired, weapon base used, armor of creature, redux of creature, padding of creature, weighting of character, and any other DF mods (perfect forged weapons, for instance).

It can be very deadly when used properly.

On a slight-slight-slight tangent, do you know if raw damage is variable for ethereal stuff, or if it follows the same formula?

[Stanley Burrell]

Also, everything Latrinsorm said.

Don't hunt golems :(

[Lucas]

Whats the difference between piercing/puncture?

Latrinstrom,do you know the formula to get a certain crit rank (including all the DF/padding/%chance etc. variables)?

[Drew]

Piercing and puncture are synonymous.

[Stanley Burrell]

[End roll - 100 * Weapon's DF (rounded up)/Crit Divisor (rounded down)] = Crit Ranking.

Why am I unable to find a table for a Hammer of Kai's damage factor anywhere!?

[DrZaius]

Why am I unable to find a table for a Hammer of Kai's damage factor anywhere!?

Because nobody uses them? Just a guess.

[Stanley Burrell]

That's pretty accurate guess, methinks.

[Celephais]

Little clarification on Stanely's formula:
INT(INT((End roll - 100) * Weapon's DF ) + 0.5)/Crit Divisor) = Max Crit Rank.

The percent chance of crit randomization is unknown to me, I had asked about it before but the only response I got was someones guess that it is equally distributed. (Min crit rank is half of max crit rank.. although I don't know if that's rounded up or down, either way a rank 9 max crit on a eye puncture will always cause death, even if it's randomized down to rank 4)

[Stanley Burrell]

Little clarification on Stanely's formula:
INT(INT((End roll - 100) * Weapon's DF ) + 0.5)/Crit Divisor) = Max Crit Rank.

The percent chance of crit randomization is unknown to me, I had asked about it before but the only response I got was someones guess that it is equally distributed. (Min crit rank is half of max crit rank.. although I don't know if that's rounded up or down, either way a rank 9 max crit on a eye puncture will always cause death, even if it's randomized down to rank 4)

What Cele said.

I think the old ambush mod for INT1 used to have something like 1/4 CM bonus for max rank from the open and maybe 1/2 CM + Ambush bonus from hiding. I can't remember offhand.)

I don't think that crit randomization is linear.

[Lucas]

DFs

Flail................575 .425 .400 .350 .250

Hammer of Kai .550 .425 .450 .350 .250

The reason I like the hammer is that it's basically a flail but only does puncture damage. It's essentially a puncturing flail. Thus, according to the formula above, would this combo be deadly?(Especially puncturing the eyes?) Or is a claidhmore to the head deadlier, or am I just wrong completely?

[Lucas]

Working through the formula, but whats the formula to determine crit divisor ?

[Celephais]

Crit divisor is based on armor type... IIRC it's 3/5/7/9/11 For None/Soft/Rigid/Chain/Plate

[Latrinsorm]

5/6/7/9/11 or 5/6/7/8/9, I can never remember which. I'm quite sure on the first three though. Redux depresses the crit divisor, but I don't think any creature has enough redux to pull that off.

I'm pretty sure crit randomization is linear, but I haven't been extremely rigorous about it. The controls required would be pretty intense. I guess I could walk out to kobolds or something and get a ton of rank 9s. That would also help determine the round up round down thing once and for all. Yeah, I think I will do that.

Noncorporeal creatures act exactly the way corporeal do, except most of the effects of crits are different. I know they got new messaging recently (a relative term), and that may have changed the following statement, but it used to be that they got all the crit damage of the crit rank and all the raw damage that one normally determined, just none of the knockdown/stun/death/messaging.

[Lucas]

Say endroll is 200.

Hammer of Kai vs. 3rd category armor (chain?)
So, ((200-100)*.45)+.5(<-is the .5 supposed to be added to the DF?))/7=max crit... is this right?

P.S. How does crit weighting come into the formula, for say a Claidhmore (with like 80 shots of weighting) Is this like an additional +80 to your endroll?

[Lucas]

Is it just the puncture to the eye that has the crit 4 death rank. Or do other forms of attack have varying death ranks, (or is it for everything else you need a rank 9 to kill?)

And the % chance of aiming correctly cannot go over 75% right? Anyone know the formula for aiming?

[StrayRogue]

Rank 4 for puncture to cause a death crit. Everything else is rank 5 or above.

[Latrinsorm]

The Armor Groups are skin/clothing/none, soft leather, rigid leather (scale), chain, plate.

The .5 is a way of rounding. I'd say just round normally. You do 45 raw damage. Crit Divisor is determined by AsG and location hit; let's assume you're attacking something in brigandine so the CD is 7 everywhere. Your max crit rank is 6, min is 3.

Crit weighting adds phantom damage for the purposes of crit calculation. For instance, if you had a claidhmore, you'd put 40 phantom damage on before you calculated the crit rank. If you also did 45 raw damage with a claidhmore versus brig, you'd calculate the crit rank as trunc((45+40)/7) or 12. The max a crit rank can be is 9 though, so you'd have a max of 9.

Nobody (that's talking) knows the max to aiming or an aiming formula.

Other forms of attack (notably crush to the head or neck) also have low death crits. Puncture to the eye is the lowest, but it's much easier to hit the head or neck than the eye.

[Lucas]

My god, I didn't know you added the phantom damage directly on top of the raw damage...thats nuts?! Claidhmores really have 40 phantom damage? thats like an auto rank 5 (almost 6) crit without even the endroll on top of that...hmm.

[VorpalBlade]

Ok ok, I think his real question is...how the heck do you kill as fast as a sorc using a warrior. The answer is, you CAN'T.

[StrayRogue]

How long can a warrior hunt? Forever. How long can a sorcerer hunt? For as long as their mana lasts.

Plz learn how to hunt.

[Lucas]

Doing out the numbers, you need a 165 endroll to hit a rank 9 crit with a claidhmore. Nothing else comes close (I'm even going to assume no other weapons come with "phantom damage") So the question becomes why use anything else but a claidhmore? Is there any disadvantages to this weapon?

[StrayRogue]

Crap AvD's against plate. Speed. Low enchant means low AS and low DS. In fact, that +165 endroll is negated, in part by enchant. A basic 4x is going to pull back that deficit by 20.

[Bobmuhthol]

Are you doing this on skin? And claidhmores have 20 phantom damage, not 40.

And claidhmores are not the end all of weapons.

[Latrinsorm]

My god, I didn't know you added the phantom damage directly on top of the raw damage...thats nuts?! Claidhmores really have 40 phantom damage? thats like an auto rank 5 (almost 6) crit without even the endroll on top of that...hmm.Crit weighting doesn't kick in until you generate a rank 1, and remember that that's only on scale armor. Weighting becomes much less effective on heavy armor.

I'm pretty sure claidhmores are 80 weighting, so 40 phantom damage, Bob.

The main reason they aren't the end-all is it's pretty easy to generate rank 9s with regular weapons against light armor and claidhmores are pretty lousy vs. plate.

I'll gladly kill a bit slower than a sorc if it means a stiff breeze won't kill my character, tyvm.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I'm pretty sure claidhmores are 80 weighting, so 40 phantom damage, Bob.>>

No. 40 weighting, 20 damage.

[Lucas]

Which is correct, because it makes a huge difference.

[Drew]

DFs

Flail................575 .425 .400 .350 .250

Hammer of Kai .550 .425 .450 .350 .250

The reason I like the hammer is that it's basically a flail but only does puncture damage. It's essentially a puncturing flail. Thus, according to the formula above, would this combo be deadly?(Especially puncturing the eyes?) Or is a claidhmore to the head deadlier, or am I just wrong completely?


Speed is a difference here, flails at 7 seconds, HoKs at 9. Flails can ambush from hiding, HoKs cannot.

[Boris]

No it's same speed as flail, 7 sec ambush. My question is if eye puncture is rank 4 required death, whats the next one above that? A rank 5 needed to kill on the head? neck? With what damage type?

[Latrinsorm]

Head crush, neck crush, either eye slash on 5.

[Danical]

No. 40 weighting, 20 damage.

I did research on claids with a zero dex character.

100 rank 1 hits on a creature with a CD of 5 and it always achieved a rank 9. Never once did it randomize down below 5 which leads me to believe that it does add 40. Not only that, but that the 40 is static and not 20-40 as many have suggested how Crit Weighting works.

Now, 100 hits isn't even close enough to give me certainty but that's my preliminary research and so far I'm sticking with it.

[Bobmuhthol]

Then wtf.

I've never heard of claidhs being +80 with 40 phantom damage in my life.

[Drew]

No it's same speed as flail, 7 sec ambush. My question is if eye puncture is rank 4 required death, whats the next one above that? A rank 5 needed to kill on the head? neck? With what damage type?


I was thinking awl pike not HoK. Rank 5 crush needed to kill on head, rank 6 puncture and slash on the head. Incidentally I believe it's rank 8 crush to kill on the eye.

[Bobmuhthol]

Rank 7 crush for a crit.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm pretty sure crit randomization is linear, but I haven't been extremely rigorous about it. The controls required would be pretty intense. I guess I could walk out to kobolds or something and get a ton of rank 9s. That would also help determine the round up round down thing once and for all. Yeah, I think I will do that.

If you decide against doing stat homework for GemStone, it will be understood :blink:

There is no blink emoticon.

[Danical]

assuming level doesn't play a part in the crit randomization process.

[Bobmuhthol]

As it's random, there's a pretty good chance that level makes no difference.

[Danical]

Of course, but that could potentially be a variable. Just a part of the rigorous testing latrine was talking about.

I'm with you though, I seriously doubt that it is.

[Latrinsorm]

That's not really what I was talking about, because it's a fairly unlikely possibility.

Achieving a rank 9 max on every hit, these are the numbers I have.
5: 20%
6: 15%
7: 22%
8: 24%
9: 18%

All +/- 7.1%, 200 samples. I'm pretty sure it's linear. I'll get back to you when I get another 100. Turns out crit rank min rounds up after all.

[Stanley Burrell]

What weapon base are you using to test for rank 9's?

[Drew]

All +/- 7.1%, 200 samples. I'm pretty sure it's linear. I'll get back to you when I get another 100. Turns out crit rank min rounds up after all.


AHEM. Just what I said.

[Latrinsorm]

Hm, somehow I missed those two responses.

Stan: Broadsword.

Drew: Yes, but I actually PROVED it. That hit from before that proved me right was incorrect because the crit divisor for PC skin is actually 5 (which I ALSO proved).

Updated results:
293 samples.
Rank 9: 19.1%
Rank 8: 21.8%
Rank 7: 21.5%
Rank 6: 17.8%
Rank 5: 19.5%
...
Rank 4: 0.3%
:grr:
All +/- 5.8%.

I had a rank 4 show up. The hit was 53 raw damage versus the hand of light leather. This should be a 5 crit divisor, which would mean kobolds have at least 9(!!!!!!!!!) points of phantom damage removed. If I assume that for some reason the 6 crit divisor of the torso magically carries over to everything, the distribution doesn't get any prettier, but we do get rid of the rank 4. If I take away any hit that would have been reduced below a rank 9 by 9 points of phantom damage removed, it still doesn't get any prettier:

Rank 9: 18.9
8: 22.7
7: 22.0
6: 16.3
5: 20.1

So what I'm going to do is determine the crit divisor on kobold's hands. If it's really 5, I might try and figure out if they have any crit padding (ugh).