Artisan Guild Exp

[mgoddess]

Artisan Guild Exp · on 6/29/2006 11:02:18 AM

Artisan Guild Exp is going live today. I put it in in Plat this morning and already a few people have converted. I'll be likely putting it live in Prime tonight barring any issues. Here's a little information about that and what the changes entail.

For starters, the player ARTISAN verb will see a little upgrade. Whereas before, when a player typed ARTISAN, it showed your approximate ranks in a skill, now, it'll show the below when typed solo:

>artisan

Usage:
ARTISAN HELP - Displays this message.
ARTISAN SKILLS - Displays your ranks in various skills.
ARTISAN RANKS - Displays the text to rank information.
ARTISAN UNLEARN {CHECK|HELP} - Checks your unlearning preference, or provides info about it.
ARTISAN UNLEARN {SET} {SKILL} - Sets your unlearning preference to the skill selected.

Where {skill} is one of the following:
COBBLING FLETCHING FORGING-BRAWLING
FORGING-CRAFTING FORGING-OHE FORGING-OHB
FORGING-PA FORGING-THW MINING
NONE SMELTING

As you can see, you can still see your ranks by typing ARTISAN SKILLS. Additionally, you can see what those ranks are approximate to by typing ARTISAN RANKS.

One other thing you can do through the ARTISAN command is convert yourself to the new system. If you want to manually make that happen, you can type ARTISAN CONVERT and you'll start getting exp. If you don't do that, then the next time you use anything that touches the AG system, you'll automatically get converted. The convert option is only available to those that can use it, so it's not shown above. But if you can convert, it'll show when you type ARTISAN. Conversion will transfer all of your ranks over one for one (with the exception of cobbling, which will convert them down to a cap of 200 ranks) and then award you exp based on those ranks. The way exp is awarded is like such: The first skill to hit rank x is worth x exp. The second skill to hit rank x is worth one half x exp. And so on. If a rank is ever unlearned (as below) then you will not get exp for that rank a second time. As for the rewarding of retroactive experience, you will get a dump of 25k exp every week on login.

The last functionality you have through the ARTISAN verb concerns unlearning. The best place for you to start is by typing ARTISAN UNLEARN HELP (which I would recommend you read through as well). That will list out the rules of unlearning, which I've summed up from the output below:


When you attempt to gain a new rank, the Artisan Guild system first checks if you're able to and reacts based on that check.

- If you are under your rank allotment (which caps at 1200 ranks), you learn with no problems.
- If you are at your rank limit, you will not be able to learn further without an unlearning preference set. If you have an unlearning preference set, you will lose the necessary rank in order to gain a rank in the new skill you're working on.

- If you are over your set number of ranks, you will be thrown into a forced unlearning where you will unlearn skills at an accelerated rate to bring you back in line with our current Artisan Guild limit. If you have a preference, it will take from that skill first. Lacking that preference set, you will lose skill ranks in the Artisan Guild skill that is currently the lowest.



In normal skills, a rank counts towards your 1200 limit. In the forging skills, a rank counts as 1/3 of a rank. This allows us to have forging masters who can do little else, or they can be just plain forgers and know the other skills.

I'll be watching the boards in the Artisan Guild folder for a while and will be answering questions as I can.

~Tilmont

~One day, I will find a way to implant annoying songs in other people's heads... and this will be my supervillian power. ~

This message was originally posted in Artisan Skills, Artisan Skills General Discussion. To discuss the above follow the link below.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=14&topic=2&message=415

[Makkah]

Yes, plz.

[Jolena]

System is buggy right now in Plat. They are working on it though, as my girl just Mastered fletching after a few hours of working on it only, and the experience I gained was enough to train her.

[StrayRogue]

Shame they didn't release it in Prime. Someone explain what that retroactive 25k exp thing means though.

[Jolena]

Well, the bug in the system currently put my girl (who's only worked about 4 hours on fletching) into Master status when she converted. In the process, it gave her 25K in experience. So I'd assume that's what it meant. However, since its all buggy, who knows.

[Jolena]

Also, I imagine they did the 'beta' testing of it in Plat first because there are so many fewer people to experience the bugs and have to be fixed. If they release it in Prime, they'd have a huge mess on their hands fixing it all at once.

[Bobmuhthol]

When you already have ranks (I assume this works for any number and not just master), you get the experience that you would have earned doing a skill under the new system. Every week, you'll be given 25,000 experience until you've received all the experience owed to you. A master gets 125,250 experience from my addition - you'll get 25,000 experience over 5 weeks and I guess another 250 the next week if you've already mastered.

[Stanley Burrell]

They capped it at 1200 AG ranks flat, and somehow I am not surprised.

Did Spendel start crying, yet?

[Celephais]

So with 1200 AG ranks (broken out 500/500/200)... that's 270k exp... And your able to unlearn to go up any other availible tree for more exp. How many availible trees are there?

[GuildRat]

[Quote]In normal skills, a rank counts towards your 1200 limit. In the forging skills, a rank counts as 1/3 of a rank. This allows us to have forging masters who can do little else, or they can be just plain forgers and know the other skills.

I'll be watching the boards in the Artisan Guild folder for a while and will be answering questions as I can.[Quote]


OK, so let me get this straight...if I've X number of ranks in Forging OHE, and X number of ranks in crafting....then it'd be ranks/3 to give the total ranks I'd recieve experience for?

So it'd be...say 480+490/3= 323.33 total ranks. (I lost count when I had to go to Iraq for a fun-filled paid vacation at the beach)

According to Bob's math...it's roughly 25k exp per 100 artisan ranks, or it may be broken down differently, I'm not sure where he got his figures from.

This would give me a hair over 75k EXP.

Does this sound right to anyone?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<So with 1200 AG ranks (broken out 500/500/200)... that's 270k exp>>

Nope. It says that for the first skill, exp = rank, but for the second skill, exp = rank / 2, and the "and so on" implies that for the third skill, exp = rank / 3.

<<According to Bob's math...it's roughly 25k exp per 100 artisan ranks>>

Absolutely cannot compute it this way. The first 100 ranks add up to 5050 experience.

<<it may be broken down differently, I'm not sure where he got his figures from.>>

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ... + 500.

<<Does this sound right to anyone?>>

Nope. I don't know how the different forging skills work as far as independence of each other or counted as one skill, so I couldn't tell you how much experience you'd get with crafting and OHE together.

[mgoddess]

Tilmont posted the following in response to someone's question on the officials...
--
> I if read this right, forging could have up to 7 masteries? Does crafting count in this, or is just the forge? Then it would leave room for one more outside skill, say mining or fletching? ~SPENDEL

Crafting counts as part of the forge. There are six things with forging....Crafting, OHE, OHB, THW, poles, brawling. If you master all of them, that's a total of 3000 ranks, or 1000 for the AG EXP system. That leaves 200 other ranks to play with.

and

> One thing that puzzles me though. Why does forging get 1/3 exp? ~SPENDEL

My apologies...maybe i just wasn't clear. They don't get 1/3 the exp. Their ranks count as 1/3 towards the collective rank cap. Because it's harder and the six skills are inter-tied so tightly, we wanted to make it that someone could get crafting and two weapon types and only count that as one skill. Those 1500 total ranks will count the exact same towards your total allowable ranks as fletching or cobbling does.

So, the first skill you earn ALWAYS gives you a ranks worth of exp. The second always gives you half the ranks worth of exp. the third skill is worth a third of the rank. It doesn't matter if that skill is crafting, OHE, cobbling or anything else.

Since there's a cap of 1200 total ranks you can learn, fletching (500 ranks) + crafting (500/3 ranks) + OHE (500/3 ranks) + THW (500/3 ranks) and still have enough to play around with say...mining when it hits.

That's the entire point of the two hundred ranks extra. Two skills and a little room for play. GM Bernt put it the best in saying that it's a hard nut to swallow to lose your mastery to even test another skill. Those two hundred ranks afford that time to dabble.

[GuildRat]

OK...so it 166.67 ranks counted towards EXP per forging skill learned...and 166.7 for crafting...totalling 500 total points for EXP if you mastered crafting and forging two types of weapons.

So basically I have a bit over 300 ranks to count towards EXP when it hits the fan.

Thanks

[Bobmuhthol]

Okay, now I guess I can rethink the former question.

<<So it'd be...say 480+490/3= 323.33 total ranks.>>

According to what I just read, that's 480 and 490 ranks for exp consideration. That means you'll have 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ... + 490, and (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ... + 480) / 2 experience. That is 120,295 and 57,720 experience, for a total of 178,015 experience.

Forgers have a potential for more experience than any other skill because of the 1/3 ranks rule, but it gets drastically less for each skill. Mastering cobbling or forging grants 125,500 experience. Mastering crafting and one weapon class grants 187,875 experience. Mastering crafting and two weapon classes (the equivalent of 500 artisan guild ranks) grants 229,625 experience. That's a potential 104,125 experience more than another skill, but I'd say that there's that much more work involved that it's fair.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<OK...so it 166.67 ranks counted towards EXP per forging skill learned...and 166.7 for crafting...totalling 500 total points for EXP if you mastered crafting and forging two types of weapons.

So basically I have a bit over 300 ranks to count towards EXP when it hits the fan.>>

You get experience for every rank you get. The 1/3 rule, from what I can tell, allows for more experience, not less.

[GuildRat]

<<According to what I just read, that's 480 and 490 ranks for exp consideration. That means you'll have 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ... + 490, and (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ... + 480) / 2 experience. That is 120,295 and 57,720 experience, for a total of 178,015 experience.>>

Cool, sounds good to me, thx.

[Daniel]

So... I get how much experience for mastering fletching?

[Bobmuhthol]

125,250.

[Daniel]

Sweetness.

[FinisWolf]

Well, not sure if anyone else has encountered this, but with one of my chars I had some crafting ranks, and now they are gone. I am assuming this is a bug from them working on the system.

I reported, and was promptly dismissed.

Finis

[mgoddess]

Well, not sure if anyone else has encountered this, but with one of my chars I had some crafting ranks, and now they are gone. I am assuming this is a bug from them working on the system.

I reported, and was promptly dismissed.

Finis

Was this in Prime or Plat?

[Jolena]

My issue with it in Plat just got fixed by Tilmont so they are on their way to resolving it, whatever it was.

[Celephais]

Bob, it sounds like you can learn a skill, get exp, unlearn it and learn another and also get exp (but if you then go back to a skill you've gotten exp from you do not get any additional exp). This means that if you learned/unlearned every AG skill you would have... 1002000 exp... (prior to mining coming out). and as far as I can tell, none of that exp has to be absorbed... holy crap. (Do I get the exp now... or save it for when I hit a hard spot)

[Celephais]

Effectively if you were hitting pulses on nodes and crafting your ass off (Keeping your head in exp) you could be level 45 by the time your 30 day period is up...

30 days * 24 hours * 60 Mins * 25 exp/min (conservative)
+ 5 XXXs * 9 freehours * 60 Mins * 25 exp/min + 1002000 = 2149500 exp.

(Yeah I know, no ones going to play 24/7.. and crafting is expensive/hard to hit pulses noded, this was just conceptual)

Wonder how much you could sell a 45th level character w/ stat re-allocation for...

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Bob, it sounds like you can learn a skill, get exp, unlearn it and learn another and also get exp (but if you then go back to a skill you've gotten exp from you do not get any additional exp).>>

You don't get the full experience. If you master 2 skills, unlearn them, and master 2 more skills, it's the same as having no rank limit and mastering 4 skills. This results in x + x/2 + x/3 + x/4 experience, not 4x experience.


Edit: I want to figure out how much that is out of boredom.

Haha I fucked up my original thing. 4 skills:

(1 + (1 / 2) + (1 / 3) + (1 / 4)) * 125,250 = 260,937.5 experience.

Your figure came from 8 skills. That's x + x/2 + x/3 + x/4 + x/5 + x/6 + x/7 + x/8. I don't want to figure out the LCD, so I'll just use a calculator.

(1 + (1 / 2) + (1 / 3) + (1 / 4) + (1 / 5) + (1 / 6) + (1 / 7) + (1 / 8)) * 125,250 = 340,411.607 experience.

It becomes almost worthless to do that after a few skills.

[Jolena]

If it helps, I got 25K exp for about 234 ranks of the skill.

[Bobmuhthol]

27,495 for 234 ranks.

[mgoddess]

If it helps, I got 25K exp for about 234 ranks of the skill.

27,495 for 234 ranks.

She'll get 2,495 next week, exactly 7 days after the 25k dump she got today..

[Celephais]

Still a very large amount of exp that does not need to be absorbed and has zero risk involved.

[Bobmuhthol]

Okay, apparently every calculation I've done that isn't the first skill has been wrong. It seems that the experience you get is always rounded up (ie., 51st rank = 26 exp, 52nd rank = 26 exp for second skill).

[Celephais]

Eh, close enough.

[Latrinsorm]

Still a very large amount of exp that does not need to be absorbed and has zero risk involved.The whole idea to alt experience gain is that you can get experience without combat risk. The only thing is forging is expensive as all HECK to do in terms of both time and money, especially towards the top end. I don't think it's even possible to fry from forging/crafting. I'd be surprised if people could even get to numbed.

[Celephais]

I was under the impression it caused no mind state at all... kind of like the exp you get 0-1. If that's not the case I would not think this unbalancing at all. I don't really think it's "unbalancing" to begin with, but fletching is incredibly easy (or it was, haven't done it since it got more complicated), and if you can get extra exp while you rest on a node, you can really blow through some of the boring levels early on (although those levels are easy, so might be worth saving this exp until you're at a harder level)

Edit: 0-1 exp while doing the quests for the sprite... not hunting exp 0-1

[Bobmuhthol]

Prime exp is in.

[Celephais]

I just tested it... it goes into your mined... you actually have to absorb it. Not such a good downtime exper as I thought (it does work with lumnis...). So if you already got it, then you're in for some sweet no-absorb exp, otherwise it has to be absorbed.

[GuildRat]

Artisan Guild skills successfully converted. Please take a moment to read ARTISAN UNLEARN HELP and set your unlearning preference.

>exp
Level: 96 Deeds: 15
Experience: 7208803 Decays this level: 0
Exp. until next: 27697 Recent Deaths: 1
Mental TPs: 25 Fame: 52767034
Physical TPs: 36 Mana: 41/41 max

Your mind is as clear as a bell.
>
You've gained 14 physical training points.
(To use these new points, type GOALS and adjust your skills.)
You've gained 11 mental training points.
(To use these new points, type GOALS and adjust your skills.)
>

[Bobmuhthol]

<<(it does work with lumnis...).>>

According to the 1 experience I just absorbed, no it doesn't.

[Celephais]

Yeah Bob I was having some weird results with Lumnis... I got 1 exp on my first skill, but I got 6 on my second. I didn't do much research beyond that (then I got 9 on my third... and no I didn't learn enough times in between to get it up to that value). I'm wondering if there is some min on the lumnis absorb, so you don't "waste" a minute of Lumnis on a single exp point.

But I'm pretty sure I recall having absorbed 3 exp while on lumnis before. (I have a script that every pulse and half-pulse it sends "Exp +#" to me, so I see all my exp gains, and don't miss one/mess up the math)

[GuildRat]

Question about artisan skills....more specific....forging and crafting. There used to be racial and professional modifiers, but damned if I can find them. Anyone have them or a link to where I can find them?

Thanks in advance

[DrZaius]

Question about artisan skills....more specific....forging and crafting. There used to be racial and professional modifiers, but damned if I can find them. Anyone have them or a link to where I can find them?

Thanks in advance

IIRC, they're on here http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page somewhere.

EDIT: Complete Lie. I don't remember where I saw it.

[Skeeter]

does it work with XXX do you get 3x the xp if you have it up.

If you don't get 3x xp does it still drain your XXX since you're absorbing exp.

If neither of those are true. seems like a great way to gain exp after XXX is up.

[Latrinsorm]

http://spendel.dnsalias.com/Forge/PostMastery/AfterForgingMastery.htm

For the race/profession bonuses/penalties. Note that these are not bonuses or penalties to the chances of getting an Aha, just to the success of crafting or forging.

[Numbers]

does it work with XXX do you get 3x the xp if you have it up.

If you don't get 3x xp does it still drain your XXX since you're absorbing exp.

If neither of those are true. seems like a great way to gain exp after XXX is up.

I'm curious about all this as well.

Additionally, does the experience absorbed differ whether you're on- or off-node?

[GuildRat]

http://spendel.dnsalias.com/Forge/PostMastery/AfterForgingMastery.htm

For the race/profession bonuses/penalties. Note that these are not bonuses or penalties to the chances of getting an Aha, just to the success of crafting or forging.


Thanks for the link. Seems that if you're slightly handicapped tho, you'd have less chance of a success at making hammer handles or heads. Seeing as how you need a success for an "Aha", might be a wee bit of a handicap to getting ranks.

[Latrinsorm]

You don't need a success for an Aha.

[GuildRat]

You don't need a success for an Aha.


No shit? It's been about 3 years since I've done any forging or crafting, but I could've sworn you had to have a success to get the elusive "Aha".

Ah well, live and relearn.

[Celephais]

I'm curious about all this as well.

Additionally, does the experience absorbed differ whether you're on- or off-node?

When I did a quick test, fletching with both a character who had exp in his mind and one who did not, I did not use xxx (lumnis) on the 1st character's first point (so 1 exp) but did on the 2nd point (so 6 exp), and those exp points did cause him to not be belled until the mini-pulse. On my other character who already had exp in his head, I didn't really do any tracking, but it just seemed to go into his normal bucket... so I imagine if you're fried you could waste exp by getting an aha.

[Bobmuhthol]

[OOC]-*CENSORED*: "Okay, I think Bob's right. No XXX on the artisan exp. I've been bouncing from fried to numbed for the last 30 minutes crafting, and I'm only getting 1k per hour. Weird."

So far, I've seen no substantial evidence that I'm wrong. And especially from personal experience, it seems pretty clear that XXX doesn't affect artisan experience.

[Daniel]

Let's be serious here. Do you think they'd give already mastered people 75k in place of 25k exprience just because they converted at the opportune time?

[Bobmuhthol]

We all know that the 25k dump isn't affected by XXX.

I'm talking new ranks.

[Celephais]

K, I'll buy it (I did it very quickly last night before I went to bed, and I wasn't even testing for XXX... I just saw +1... then +6, then +9 so I assumed it had to be xxx for the 2nd two, but I definatly saw just +1 for the first)

[Celephais]

It seems to me that you fill the same bucket as killing Mobs... it seems unfair to not get XXX for artisan exp, what if I fried on artisan (1000 exp in my head), and then while fried killed 10 like level critters... still no XXX? I'm not saying I'm right because simu thinks things through (hell no), I'm just saying this is a fundemental problem if they decided to not give XXX

(I also think it's an issue if they do give XXX... i'd hate to waste a minute of XXX because I happened to get an aha while I was RPing and only get three exp out of it)

[Bobmuhthol]

Yeah, I don't know how I feel about it, but I really don't see XXX working on this when I track my exp.

[mgoddess]

I seem to recall reading on the officials somewhere that the retro exp wouldn't be affected by XXX (due to being a dump straight to the head, not into the bucket), while exp from new ranks after the system was implemented would be affected by XXX.

Of course, I can't remember where I saw nor who posted it. :(

[FinisWolf]

You are correct mgoddess.

Finis

[FinisWolf]

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=14&topic=2&message=415 (http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=14&topic=2&message=415)

Towards the end of that folder. In the last page or two is where Tilmont explains triple x.

Finis

[Bobmuhthol]

At this point, it looks like XXX is successfully multiplying artisan guild experience.

[Bobmuhthol]

Additionally, I'd just like to point out how awesome crafting is for getting experience.

[FinisWolf]

Well, I did some calculations.

After several days of ONLY doing fletch, and it being my first Artisan skill ...

As well as running through 6 hours of triple X, and never once during all this falling below clear (also stopping when the mind hit Must Rest) ...

I have come to the summation that the total experience that I will be getting from this skill is 120,514 experience. So it's close, but not perfect. So for those that did this before hand, good thinking.

Finis

[Bobmuhthol]

I don't know where this calculation came from or why it would be considered. If you run XXX and also master a skill without wasting exp past fried, you'll get more than 125,250 experience. Otherwise, you get 125,250.

[FinisWolf]

It came from me writing down my beginning experience and ending experience, while going through 6 hours of triple x, and making sure to stop the script once I hit MUST REST.

Thats where this calculation came from. So in the end, I received 120,514 experience.

Finis