regarding NOT training in ambushing

[Grimblade]

Is ambushing the only real viable hunting method for rogues?

I am planning on creating a Voln fuing rogue, that is also a picker. In doing so, I'm realizing most of my time will be used fighting undead, and not using weapons frequently.

If I skipped on stalk & hide and ambushing, would I be seriously gimping myself in the long run?

If anyone has some suggestions also for a good voln/brawling rogue that can also be at or close to 3x disarm & 3x locks by cap, I'd appreciate it.

[Drew]

Voln fu and ambush aren't compatible, neither is hiding. As long as you don't mind only hunting undead and using fu on the living when you need a break you can go for. Since you are picking I don't need to tell you this, but train in perception, it helps your FU a very small amount.

[Victorj]

Hunting with just fu is quite viable, as the previous poster stated. Since you're hunting with fu and not hiding/ambushing, I recommend you get into plate armor as fast as possible. Another thing you can do is get 102, since that'll increase your DS alot, but it won't affect your fu MB by that much.

[Gan]

Just roll up a warrior and train in locks and traps... Since you wont be much of a rogue without stalking/hiding/ambushing.

[Grimblade]

Just roll up a warrior and train in locks and traps... Since you wont be much of a rogue without stalking/hiding/ambushing.

Um, no... but thanks for that non-constructive advice. Please explain how I will not "be much of a rogue"? I want to be primarily a picker, hence the description originally that I would like to 3x in disarm & locks by cap. If I recall correctly, Warriors cannot 3x in locks & disarm.

Allow me to explain why I am asking this:
I want to do something different than what I have done in the past. I have played this game since it was on Compuserve back in 1995, and I have never had a Voln Fu character. Hence my question. I started up a new rogue and originally had him with 2x brawl, 1x ambush, 2x stalk&hide, 2x picking skills (tripling by cap), 2x percept, 2x dodge, 2x twc, 1x armor, 1x physical training, 1x cm...
After joining voln and getting the throw punch and kick steps completed, I found I was having more fun using Voln Fu, and decided that was going to be that character's primary method of fighting.

This is why I asked my question, since I realized I will not be using ambush, nor Hiding very much, if at all, I also found I no longer needed 2 weapon, and that I could save a bunch of points and put them in more useful skills (shield, armor, CM) and I wanted to see if this would be a viable method of hunting, while still keeping my picking ability.

Below is my training plan if anyone would like to offer any constructive criticism:

Halfling rogue

Stats @ 0:
STR - 73
CON - 62
DEX - 49
AGL - 30
DIS - 77
AUR - 82
LOG - 70
INT - 62
WIS - 88
INF - 67

Initially training will be:
2x brawl, dodge, disarm, picking, perception, armor; 1x shield, CM, PT; and I will pick up 4 ranks of MnE, and 2 ranks of MnS, 20 ranks of MIU, and AS, a few ranks of harness power.

By cap I will have (in ranks):
Armor use - 80 (for MBP)
Shield use - 101
Brawling - 202
CM - 202
PT - 101
Dodging - 202 (2x)
Climbing 20-30 ranks
Swimming 20-30 ranks
Disarm - 303
Locks - 303
Perception - 202
AS - 20 ranks
MIU - 20 ranks
Harness power - 6 ranks
Spell rersearch - up to 404 and 102

Not sure for CMANs besides surge of strength.
Does this look good? or can anyone offer further ideas, maybe with CMANs?

Thanks!

[DrZaius]

Feint is always good; and Combat Mobility has saved my behind more than once.

[GuildRat]

It's possible to be a picker and a hiding ambushing rogue....I did it for 90 trains and at 90...here were my tops....

Most difficult lock picked: -1200
Most difficult trap disarmed: -480

That's tripling disarm, near tripling picking,1.5'ing stalk and hide, and about
1.3'ing ambush. Not to mention the lores.

[Grimblade]

It's possible to be a picker and a hiding ambushing rogue....I did it for 90 trains and at 90...here were my tops....

Most difficult lock picked: -1200
Most difficult trap disarmed: -480

That's tripling disarm, near tripling picking,1.5'ing stalk and hide, and about
1.3'ing ambush. Not to mention the lores.

Oh yeah, that plan is definitely doable, and I have done a 3x picker and ambusher in the past. But I'm just trying to get suggestions for something new to me: a Picking, Voln-fuing rogue, And the idea is to free up points for other things, (since I wouldn't be really using hide or ambush as a Voln-Fu rogue) like CM, Spell training, armor use, and up my picking ability.

[War Angel]

It sounds like a good plan, but stat wise, how would your MB look?
I haven't ever had a character make it through Voln, so I am not implying that I know more, maybe the numbers people can help.
Also, being a halfling, it stats that encumberance will lower your MB?
Someone else chime in, please?


The formula from Arkati.org states:

Order of Voln Information: Voln Fu MB Formula

Throw MB:

Brawling Skill * 20/17 (rounded) + Perception Skill/20 + Agility Bonus/2 + Dexterity Bonus/2 + Strength Bonus/5. Thanks to Apryll (I've verified this is correct.).

Kick and Punch MB:

Same, but + Voln Step (against undead). Also thanks to Apryll.

Spell/Skill affects to MB:

Some spells with an AS bonus adds 1 to MB for every +5 AS (Paladin, MjE, MnE are exempt, 205, 211, 215 add to it.).
Most any spell with an AS negative subtracts 1 to MB for every 5 points (102, 106, Darkness)
Symbol of Courage adds +5 to MB.
Mobility (618): +20 to MB (Special Affect)
Combat Manuever Training allegedly adds +1 MB per 10 ranks (Untested).
Worn Armor: -(Action Pentalty + 1) to MB [Example: Brig is -13 AP. +1 = -12 to MB]

Other Factors:

Encumberance will reduce one's MB as well..

[Stretch]

...what I don't understand is, why so much CM? You're not getting the ambush pushdown/crits, and you're not hiding, so at best you're stuck in the open using brawling weapons. A sai to the eye might work from the open on things in brigandine or less if your AS is high enough I suppose, but woefully inefficient compared to a lot of other weapon plans.

Were I you, I would pick up enough CM to get surge and mobility. And then just stop there. That frees up 972/972 TP's for you to go nuts and get some other training. You could bump brawling up to 3x, and still have 172/572 TP's left over. That's what, 8 more spells and 14 more ranks of Harness Power.

Of course, that is all theoretical at level 100, so eh. Long way off.

[StrayRogue]

I suggest going warrior, as Ganalon said.

[GuildRat]

...what I don't understand is, why so much CM? You're not getting the ambush pushdown/crits, and you're not hiding, so at best you're stuck in the open using brawling weapons. A sai to the eye might work from the open on things in brigandine or less if your AS is high enough I suppose, but woefully inefficient compared to a lot of other weapon plans.

Were I you, I would pick up enough CM to get surge and mobility. And then just stop there. That frees up 972/972 TP's for you to go nuts and get some other training. You could bump brawling up to 3x, and still have 172/572 TP's left over. That's what, 8 more spells and 14 more ranks of Harness Power.

Of course, that is all theoretical at level 100, so eh. Long way off.

Ya know, I'd agree with this if it weren't the fact that there's so many critters with maneuver attacks now. It'd be foolhardy to give up cmans if you plan on hunting anything in Illistim at any time.

I'm starting to agree with the "go warrior" crowd. I can't see a rogue being viable without the hide/ambush aspect. From experience, being in a swarm with my ass in the breeze does't give me a "warm fuzzy" feeling.

It'd be a nice novelty for a while, but real prgression would more than likely just be a fruitless, frustrating venture.

[Stretch]

As an aside, I meant 3x in dodging (not brawling). Brain fart.

Also consider that there's no point getting defensive warrior CMAN's. He's Fu'ing, so disarm is useless. Cheapshots he can get through the guild, that offers plenty of defence.

[Grimblade]

I suppose I could try it, and if it doesn't work out, I can at least say I had fun working on it anyway...


As an aside, I meant 3x in dodging (not brawling). Brain fart.

Also consider that there's no point getting defensive warrior CMAN's. He's Fu'ing, so disarm is useless. Cheapshots he can get through the guild, that offers plenty of defence.

That's a good idea to just get the CMANs that will help for Voln fu, then go with dodging.... I'll look into it and see how doable that is.

I appreciate everyones opinions... Like I said, more just to see if it is something I could do, and do well, or if it is a hopeless idea. I will try it and maybe post again later on with an update

[Andrath]

hey man, if you wanna be a rogue than be a rogue, voln fu is for punk pallys...pick your locks and ambush the neck and you'll fly straight

[Gushi]

Just wait for the Monk release to come out, I'm sure they will be much better suited for Voln-fu. Corse who knows what if any smithing they will be able to learn.

[StrayRogue]

Corse who knows what if any smithing they will be able to learn.

I do.


Picking Locks: 2 2,3
Disarm Traps: 2 2,4

I imagine Voln-Fu will be heavily changed when the unarmed combat system arrives too.