Are Warriors broken?

[Lucas]

Ok, thus far I have played warriors,sorcerers, and wizards (20,23, 13) levels respectively. All I can say is, -warriors- -are- -completely- -broken-. It's NOT about the hunting, my warrior can hunt just as effectively if not better then my sorc or wiz. However, in terms of versatility and fun, my sorc and wiz are by far better. As I see it, warriors have an extremely limited 'repetoire' of stuff they can do. I mean when you throw in guild skills and manuevers, you can basically classify squares abilities into 3 categories. They get to boost AS/DS, be more robust in combat (get out of stuns or whatever), or augment existing skills.
Sorcs and wizzies get all manner of interesting ways to attack in combat anything from maelstrom, limb disruption, and eye spy couple these with such spells as animate dead (and all the fun in depth stuff like the preping required which by the way introduces awesome ways to RP) or the new alchemy system (which gets you to do even more interesting stuff) and you get fun in depth gameplay. With warriors you get...well bash box or make sheath ...yay. Warriors (and rogues by the way) really need some more fun applicable skills.
One suggestion might be something out of D&D, like attracting followers once a warrior character reaches a particular level or possibly a way for a warrior to develop his or own combat style attack,such as the ability to create a new manuever that is tailored to the warrior (under a regimented system of course...but with enough flexibility so that the player can add his personal flare without destroying game balance.)Anyhow just my two cents.

[mgoddess]

Warriors are all about going out and bashing/smashing things over the head. In this sense, they are most definitely NOT broken.

If you want something other then bashing critters over the head, chose a different profession...(like you have).

[zhelas]

you should try a semi..like a Ranger, Bard or Paladin...

[Snapp]

I have a blast with my warrior. It might be just a preference thing.. so yeah, what they said.

[Aaysia]

warriors kick ass kthx.

[Stanley Burrell]

Ok, thus far I have played warriors,sorcerers, and wizards (20,23, 13) levels respectively. All I can say is, -warriors- -are- -completely- -broken-. It's NOT about the hunting, my warrior can hunt just as effectively if not better then my sorc or wiz. However, in terms of versatility and fun, my sorc and wiz are by far better. As I see it, warriors have an extremely limited 'repetoire' of stuff they can do. I mean when you throw in guild skills and manuevers, you can basically classify squares abilities into 3 categories. They get to boost AS/DS, be more robust in combat (get out of stuns or whatever), or augment existing skills.
Sorcs and wizzies get all manner of interesting ways to attack in combat anything from maelstrom, limb disruption, and eye spy couple these with such spells as animate dead (and all the fun in depth stuff like the preping required which by the way introduces awesome ways to RP) or the new alchemy system (which gets you to do even more interesting stuff) and you get fun in depth gameplay. With warriors you get...well bash box or make sheath ...yay. Warriors (and rogues by the way) really need some more fun applicable skills.
One suggestion might be something out of D&D, like attracting followers once a warrior character reaches a particular level or possibly a way for a warrior to develop his or own combat style attack,such as the ability to create a new manuever that is tailored to the warrior (under a regimented system of course...but with enough flexibility so that the player can add his personal flare without destroying game balance.)Anyhow just my two cents.

Warriors are phenomenally broken -- Mechanically and RP-hunting-strongliness-wise.

Trying to incorporate the AS boost from wtrick sattacking Lower Eye critters at 75 trains is an excellent way for me to still completely fux0r my stamina, while being fully tripled in PT.

I have to physically join a group for Holler to work a maximum of two times, with the phenomenal chance of failure before I am completely parched: And thus have already killed this useless implement.

Stun maneuvers does a bunch of jack shit at this train and has an extreme nerf to it, as is, being the classy-trained rogue that I am fuckin' not. Real hunting means not getting stunned. Period. Realer hunting means that fifty million round stuns are mainly the result of severing large chunks of me in half, OOG. Realistic hunting means not having to change town biomes to accomplish this. Teras/RR have been around for a tad longer than Cysaegir. Don't whine at me, plz. Kthnxbai<3.

Full hide/ambush would work waaay better due to a ridiculously lower economic cost if I were less mutated and bared smaller, rogue-like nipples.

Don't even get me started on some other square group's incline to easiness vs. the Warrior profession discussed in the current thread.

I should not have to go from 2 to 63 ranks of berserking to become just slightly, intangibly more viable. I will not waste invisible training points on doing so.

.

There used to be a secret, un-lockable Voln Fu profession known simply as The Warpuff...

...One day, SIMU may have noticed its database consisted of many more (albeit sometimes ambiguously distinguishable) X than Y chromosomes.

.

Unless the new Premium hunting grounds are savvy to Terasian citizens and general peoply-people, maybe I'll suddenly realize how badly I don't need a Premium account.

/end :ranting:

/start Latrinsorm's antithesis.

[Stanley Burrell]

12:28 AM Latrinsorm
Replying to Thread - Are Warriors broken?

Begin all things chaos. Mwahahaha!

[Latrinsorm]

All I can say is, -warriors- -are- -completely- -broken-.You -are- -completely- -wrong-. Warriors just kill stuff. There's really no need to complicate things. If you want a lot of spells, then yes, playing a warrior is probably not going to satisfy you. Mechanically in-depth side abilities (e.g. animate dead) are not required to generate satisfying RP or gameplay experiences.
Stun maneuvers
wtrick sattacking a) Get berserk. Stunman stinks in comparison, and mastering guild berserk is really easy.
b) Don't spam sattack. A little AS and a little crit weighting really isn't worth it. Every once in awhile if you've got stamina to burn, sure.

Warriors are unequivocally viable, mechanically. This doesn't mean you can roll up into any hunting area with any training plan and go to town, but it's simply not the truth to state that warriors are broken, mechanically. It's even a stretch to say that warriors are inferior in combat. Listen to Nodyre for 5 seconds, for Pete's sake.

[Stanley Burrell]

I didn't do Tower, I won't do OTF.

That (Simutronically speaking, not what you said) is absurd on the berserking mention (on the notion of having to spend a ridiculous amount of time in the Guild, whereas a profession with the highest DF'ing CS offensive can just train their way to biased perfection.)

5 seconds is about my boundary.

Double feinting (and an absolute neccesity for a takedown if a critter spawns Wizard shield) is not acceptable. I just ain't switching towns; hence my RP element, shop + 15k/free ticket to-and-fro crutch that I will hammer in any nay-sayers direction.

Shaka Zulu.

[Stanley Burrell]

My b for not using quote tags.

[StrayRogue]

Ok, thus far I have played warriors,sorcerers, and wizards (20,23, 13) levels respectively. All I can say is, -warriors- -are- -completely- -broken-

Didn't need to read beyond here. You have NO idea on the versatility of any profession at high level. Take your pointless, baseless and useless whine somewhere else.

[Lucas]

"Didn't need to read beyond here. You have NO idea on the versatility of any profession at high level"

Thats because you assumed too much and thoughts this was about game mechanics which it is NOT. If you read further, you would have known that this is about the number of different unique fun things that a profession can do (which can have no bearing on hunting or mechanics), and pretty much discounting some cmans a warrior of 20 some levels has all that he's going to get for the next 80 levels. Apart from the fact that each of his abilities will improve dramatically, in terms of what they exactly do won't change. AKA ok now my berserk works almost every time at higher ranks then lower, yay great...again this is NOT about mechanical issues but rather what type and number of activities/abilities that a profession is privy to. Sorcerers are the prime example these guys are getting massive amounts of things to do, everything from teleporting across realms (using neat components geared toward their spells), and soon demon summoning (on top of animate dead). Ok, ok I know your response is going to be so you want to cast spells then? NO, I don't, I want the same opportunities to do different things like these other professions. Listen I put in the same amount of time (if not more) into leveling my square characters as I do with my sorc or wiz , but what I get in return is a lously couple points of AS and possibly some more points of AS (from a cman rank or whatever). When I level a sorc, I get a range of stuff I can do...would you like to summon a demon perhaps? Or rip out your eye and create a floating proxy? Or go from Landing to Ta'Vaalor by drawing arcane symbols on the ground, or animate a best friend to your bidding by collecting key ingredients (ok so make him move around a little bit...), the point is compare that to 4 AS or whatever, I mean I'd rather trade that 4 AS for say the ability to attract followers (they may not even be allowed in combat) or the ability to tailor make a combat manuever (it may even by required that they be less powerful than any of the existing manuevers but the addition of uniqueness is key). The point is the sorcerer profession is moving in the right direction, *depth of gameplay* and not more AS or neccesarily more power. The other professions are quickly following suit, such as wizards (alchemy) and soon to be semis. Warriors especially seem to get the short end of the stick in terms of gameplay, they can be SO MUCH more then just ambush this or kill that.

[zhelas]

a) Get berserk. Stunman stinks in comparison, and mastering guild berserk is really easy.

Love berserk

[StrayRogue]

1) Learn how to use paragraphs.

2) Learn how to roleplay. You'll get all the depth you want.

[Latrinsorm]

(on the notion of having to spend a ridiculous amount of time in the Guild,Berserk reps just fly by, seriously. No partner reps, no audience reps, the only limit is stamina. The first 10 or so will be slow going, but after that it's really quick.
Double feinting (and an absolute neccesity for a takedown if a critter spawns Wizard shield) is not acceptable.How can you not want to use feint? It costs 14 stamina for two and takes 6 seconds. Feint is like the best thing ever. If all we had to rely on were warcries or something, maybe I could agree with you.
a warrior of 20 some levels has all that he's going to get for the next 80 levels.My warrior has at least 2 more CMANs he's going to get+master and he's mid40s. What exactly were you going to do with the extra 160 CMAN points if not get more maneuvers?

In any event, saying you want to do more stuff is fine. Saying that because you want to do more stuff warriors are broken is what's incorrect.

[Stanley Burrell]

Basically, all that I can honestly say is that you're wrong...

...But I really, really have to go poop and experience just a couple hours of father's day tradition.

Although, more than just a little bit, you may be right, I may be crazy.

[Olanan]

My warrior gnome isn't viable then, is he?

Archery gnome w/voln brawling. <---------Mutant xtreme.

[Snapp]

Archery gnome w/voln brawling. <---------Mutant xtreme.
I have a rogue that does that too. Except he's Erithian. It works out nice.

[Lucas]

broken != mechanically defunct or unviable (as squares were so long ago)

broken = Not fully developed relative to other professions especially pures.

Overall ,

# of things a warrior can do (in terms of the # of unique commands one can type into the command line to elicit a unique response) is

far less than

# of things a pure can do (in terms of the # of unique commands one can type into the command line to elicit a unique response)

[mgoddess]

broken = Not fully developed relative to other professions especially pures.

Overall ,

# of things a warrior can do (in terms of the # of unique commands one can type into the command line to elicit a unique response) is

far less than

# of things a pure can do (in terms of the # of unique commands one can type into the command line to elicit a unique response)

Apparently, you haven't looked over the Warrior Tricks available through the Guild...plenty of possibilities there to start a path to RP.

I'd have to say warriors are much more complete compared to other professions...we have a complete warrior guild, a full list of CMans (with more to possibily added in the future). Our profession *is* complete, unlike other professions (who don't have guilds, full spell lists, etc). Sure, we might not have the spells that give us the unique command-line stuff that pures especially get....but we do have our own uniqueness, that can't be surpassed by any other profession. If you don't wanna believe me, go take a look at Sylvanfair's warrior-profession verb list (http://www.sylvanfair.com/library/verb_page1.htm).

[zhelas]

Back in the GS3 days sure squares were at a disadvantage. Then the guilds were released and redux became available. With the release of CMans heck that is their magic, look at the pures who really can't learn Cmans because it costs so much. The pures also have a hard time defending against those maneuvers. Semi's usually have to sacrifice something to get Cmans.

Squares are very viable and can be quite fun. Again what class you choose depends on what you want out of the game and role play it. (Met some great dwarven fighters on Teras and many of them need baths). Be a tank, wielding a shield and weapon, two hander, or a finesse two weapon user..brawler, etc, etc. Learn some MIU or Arcane and you will be wielding magic as well. Work on your guild skills and there will be lots of things to do. Disarm traps, bash boxes..and drink the pures under the table. Darn finger wagglers and semi's can't hold thier liquor.

Zhelas

Surge, weapon specialization, weapon bonding , berserk = Massive Attack Strength

[Warriorbird]

Warrior fucking rock. A lot of people have antiquated notions about them...but this is one of those areas where Latrinsorm and I agree. That's a scary concept.

Now...do lots of people understand how to use a warrior/tactics? No.

[Back]

Warriors are broken. Reroll.

[Ardwen]

Been a warrior for a decade, wouldnt change much. I hated losing the ability to have 5 or 6 weapon skills when we switched from gs3 to gs4. Can I do as many unique things as most other classes, not since they gave most warrior abilities to the semi Paladins, does that bother me, not really. My one complaint now and in the past is that warriors are supposed to be master of the sphere of arms, and clearly arent even close to master now. But hey we can still triple in shields and noone else can.

Ardwen

And yes I actually do play other professions when I get bored.

[zhelas]

Some of the warriors back in GS3 days who were volners considered themselves paladins...now that paladins are a class act. it takes away that thunder.

Warriors are pretty cool. At least me Dwarf thinks so.

[Drew]

Been a warrior for a decade, wouldnt change much. I hated losing the ability to have 5 or 6 weapon skills when we switched from gs3 to gs4. Can I do as many unique things as most other classes, not since they gave most warrior abilities to the semi Paladins, does that bother me, not really. My one complaint now and in the past is that warriors are supposed to be master of the sphere of arms, and clearly arent even close to master now. But hey we can still triple in shields and noone else can.

Ardwen

And yes I actually do play other professions when I get bored.


That was because you had less to spend on. My warrior back in the day did CM training, armour, hiding, ambush, and weapons, that was basically it. Once you had 25 health trains you didn't need anymore, MOC did nothing, etc etc. Warriors can still do three weapon types if they want to.

[Lassiter 506]

"Warriors especially seem to get the short end of the stick in terms of gameplay, they can be SO MUCH more then just ambush this or kill that."

I have a halfling warrior, and find it to be a good break from the pures that I usually play. But before rolling up the halfling a year ago, I watched warriors hunt with me in groups, and watched a few of em hunt me. They Being the tank in plate is their call to fame. If you are finding the class to be limiting, expanding RP may be a way to save it.

On another note, about the class being broken... I watched a giant warrior reach grand lord status three weeks ago in OTF. He has been hunting there for quite some time, and has done very well. A good combination of AS and MIU training with Redux have kept him alive in there. I have yet to hear any complains from him. He usually rests at the Briarstone fountain, should you have any questions or want to engage in forearm bashing RP.

[Stanley Burrell]

My warrior being broken beef has more to do with the narrowness in viable hunting grounds and time lost in the Guild. If you're a decently trained empuff, Wizard, or sorcerer, and care as to asplode shit wherever, such is not an issue.

I don't think it's ever been a tremendous issue roleplaying the warrior element, so long as it isn't done in the actual battlefield, which entails 10x the effort input than every other single profession I have played will actually incur.

The round-time snags can really kill my whole farting and belching routine, however :(

[Stanley Burrell]

Berserk reps just fly by, seriously. No partner reps, no audience reps, the only limit is stamina.

It's a decent tool to have, no doubt. I've Master at Arm'd the Guild slightly less than twice, character combined.

I get a little disappointed when a square of far less than Legend status can simply beseech their problems away.

I get a little disappointed that it's a reverse power-hunting utility having to guild train while the other professions are granted benefits with ongoing experience, infinitely more sufficient than gaining guild ranks alone could ever possibly provide, I guess.


Feint is like the best thing ever. If all we had to rely on were warcries or something, maybe I could agree with you.

I get a little disappointed that feint was turned into a CMAN that would require me to turtle in order to use it efficiently. Berserk was a non-stamina technique. I think I've seen other professions using the feint attack before, as well.

Most of the warrior tricks I can implement as role-playing tools are better suited for professions like rogues and bards as is. When is the last time you have actually seen a warrior incorporating the WTRICK JUGGLE element throughout his or her common GemStone routine?

I think someone in this thread actually spoke of redux as being a defining factor in how Grand Lord status became available, so I didn't really read much else of what this person had made readable.

I don't want to be thought of as a hunting profession while not being able to hunt regionally as fearlessly in many of the places as rogues, empaths, wizards, sorcerers, paladins, rangers, bards, warpuffs, clerics, savants and monks can and will be able to.

I get a little disappointed when I receive OOC whispers about why I'm not OTF'ing and would absolutely love to respond "For the same reason you're WHISPER OOC'ing, dipshit" followed by a lot of well thought out analogies...

But I'm in RT :D

(I don't humbly feel that this is any kind of thread tangent, especially when questioning the intent of the original poster.)

Stanley Burrell.


Edited for clarity.

[El Burro]

Feint works better when not turtled and the old berserk had to be started BEFORE you were stunned for it to work. Therefore it sucked and was useless.

I'm not sure why you're having the troubles you say Stan as my warrior and yours always seemed to handle the fire mages quite easily. The only problem there being the need to get healed quickly due to the death glare. Guess we were killing them too fast.

I don't see warriors as broken. Maybe certain warrior training paths are though. What does that have to do with RP?

[Stanley Burrell]

Once you had 25 health trains you didn't need anymore

What?

Elemental, Spiritual, and what will eventually be Mental TD's would and will respectfully disagree.

[zhelas]

My warrior being broken beef has more to do with the narrowness in viable hunting grounds and time lost in the Guild. If you're a decently trained empuff, Wizard, or sorcerer, and care as to asplode shit wherever, such is not an issue.
:(

Not sure on the narrowness of the hunting grounds unless you are refering th the hassle of having to find blesses if you are not a volner or have a friend who will bless your weapons. One reason why I normally play pures or semi's because I want to have that flexibilty and "asploding shit" is very cool. My dwarf did get tired of the Guild work seemed to him to be awfully repeticious. Probably, the same reason why my Sorcerer hasn't finished his illusions skills.

A warrior can be self sufficent with proper training, and with MIU and Arcane, they can hold their own.

[Stanley Burrell]

Feint works better when not turtled and the old berserk had to be started BEFORE you were stunned for it to work. Therefore it sucked and was useless.

I'm not sure why you're having the troubles you say Stan as my warrior and yours always seemed to handle the fire mages quite easily. The only problem there being the need to get healed quickly due to the death glare. Guess we were killing them too fast.

I don't see warriors as broken. Maybe certain warrior training paths are though. What does that have to do with RP?

I have tremendous RP beef (wow, I actually said that) that no matter what; a plane 5 Empath rifter, with a running script, can definitely pretend to be the better role-player while simultaneously having less carpal tunnel side effects (than a Warrior.)

There is no way to RP my totally bodacious lady-killing stylistic flava' that I will in town as opposed to when I am hunting and have tremendous constraints placed upon me simply by because I'm a warrior, I guess.

Heh. Have I even hunted with Mule since mages were given sphere (let alone cloud, immolate and other BS?) Y'know, since group hunting is the only way for me to gain EXP in Teras now, I'd at like it to at least be with the some adventurers of the old Teras crowd :)

I was just commenting on the RP element because I think it's more of what this thread's original poster was using as a pitch for some of the banter I've echoed... I'd also like to rephrase broken as broken more than the other professions in this respect.

[Stanley Burrell]

A warrior can be self sufficent with proper training, and with MIU and Arcane, they can hold their own.

My warrior doesn't really use MIU or Arcane skills, as those are very non-warrior abilities. There is no way I would refrain from mini-maxing offensive/defensive skill-based traits for the uncertainty of a scroll. My wizard never even bothers to spell up from scrolls. Why? Because of the constant ability to possess a magical offensive and defensive, skill-based, and not have the pain-in-the-assness of having to waste time looking for them when pures (and from what I've always seen, semis too) can pack so much of a punch, scroll/imbedded item-less, as is.

I really, really, really want to see logs of a warrior who can gain even an inkling of experience hunting the Lower Eye without spells. Especially one with scroll reading and MIU thrown into the mix.

Honestly, at the infant levels, you have a MUCH more limitless training agenda.

At higher trains, you can have... An e-waving rogue?

Warriors are, are, are WAY broken more than the other professions in this respect, mechanically, and what I also observe as being role-playing-wise, too :shrug:

The advantage of being a warrior is paladin-conversion :thumbup:

[Lucas]

Ok, I had a secret objective when I made this thread. I'm actually a fairly old player (I think I started around 96') and I originally started out playing a warrior. Since, then I was a huge pro warrior guy (I've played other professions) but my real interest in warriors was because in terms of game mechanics they were getting the short end of the stick real badly.

Me and a few other players like (Alistair,Khavor, a few others) made it an almost a life mission to prove irrefutably(through formula and probability) that warriors were getting shafted. Well, we never quite finished that project but we did convince and ultiamtely caught the ear of some GMs including Kuromaku (the warrior guru back in the day), and bless his heart I think he really knew warriors were broken. And back in the day warriors were seriously broke. OHE/shield plus hiding/ambushing was like the only way to go post legend and this was with all the spells available at the time. And when any invasions came, there was a little "squares only" wagon where we were all pushed onto and wheeled into town for our own safety as the sorcerers/wizards/bards what have you went the other way to fight. It was a TRUE mess back then.

But anyhow, warriors I think are still partly broken, and considering whether or not to come back and play since SIMU did nothing to change this fact. It's all about the money folks. Sorcerer's just plain out pay more then warriors, so they get heard more. Bottom line.

[StrayRogue]

Paragraphs.

[StrayRogue]

Plus, please explain how you know sorcerer's get played more than warriors. I'd love to know where you get your intimate knowledge of GS accounts.

[Stanley Burrell]

The indent tag doesn't work on this medium, Lucas. You can use enter x2.

Along with your more money, less problems notion, it is (less possible critter kills, period) on this notion that I also feel significant experience gain as being more of a slippery slope.

Stanley Burrell.

[Celephais]

My warrior doesn't really use MIU or Arcane skills, as those are very non-warrior abilities.

And Physical Training is a very non-pure "ability", yet it's even more essential to a pure's viability than a warrior training in a few ranks of MIU. I agree warriors shouldn't have to train in it, but I view it the same way as how you can better rounded as a sword/brawling pure than as a runestaffer.

[GSTamral]

Ok, I had a secret objective when I made this thread. I'm actually a fairly old player (I think I started around 96') and I originally started out playing a warrior. Since, then I was a huge pro warrior guy (I've played other professions) but my real interest in warriors was because in terms of game mechanics they were getting the short end of the stick real badly.

Me and a few other players like (Alistair,Khavor, a few others) made it an almost a life mission to prove irrefutably(through formula and probability) that warriors were getting shafted. Well, we never quite finished that project but we did convince and ultiamtely caught the ear of some GMs including Kuromaku (the warrior guru back in the day), and bless his heart I think he really knew warriors were broken. And back in the day warriors were seriously broke. OHE/shield plus hiding/ambushing was like the only way to go post legend and this was with all the spells available at the time. And when any invasions came, there was a little "squares only" wagon where we were all pushed onto and wheeled into town for our own safety as the sorcerers/wizards/bards what have you went the other way to fight. It was a TRUE mess back then.

But anyhow, warriors I think are still partly broken, and considering whether or not to come back and play since SIMU did nothing to change this fact. It's all about the money folks. Sorcerer's just plain out pay more then warriors, so they get heard more. Bottom line.


I disagree about GS3 forcing warriors to hide and ambush to succeed. Heavy Hide Armor was unfair to warriors, the old 5 HP per crit rank for all armor was unfair for warriors. There was a time, between sep of 95 and late 97 in which it was very difficult to hunt as a warrior at higher levels without hiding and ambushing. Once redux was established, and once the armor changes were made by Ophion, warriors could more than easily hold their own out in the open if they wanted to and knew how to hunt. The mechanics of critters was broken. Warriors were not. Too many higher level critters had no manuever attacks, or means to hurt a sorcerer/wizard, which allowed them the easiest hunt. However, at the highest level areas, namely fire mages, warriors had a much easier time than did sorcerers or wizards due to manuever related deaths. Watching a casting wizard hunt in the lower eye was pure comedy, illustrated by Edward's antics.

With redux, it was much easier to hunt at higher levels as a warrior. In fact, no other class could uphunt nearly as easily. A well trained warrior could hunt troll kings solo by 40, or sents at 45ish. We could hunt kiramon, or roa'ters at 25. Pyros, bees and skayl were a joke in damage padded plate by mid 40's.

GS4, if anything, has neutralized a lot of the advantage warriors had for a while.

It was one of my greatest feelings in GS the day I asked Kuromaku to resign and he obliged and did (although I am sure his resignation was already in the works, it was good to know we were finally getting rid of him). For all that people gave him credit for, none of the things implemented were his ideas. Giacomo built the guild. Giacomo proposed redux. Giacomo originally requested a change to the armor system, which Ophion implemented. Kuromaku was the guru who believed that warriors should be more inclined to hunt in groups, to wear magic at all times (his flak jacket excuse for front line soldiers). Giacomo was the one who prorosed ideas to make warriors self sufficient, and Kuromaku implemented less than half of those ideas. (We still don't have an engagement system to fight casting critters, we still have not seen any effective square manuever attacks that can provide the same type of damaging results as a cast, and other classes can still easily generate much stronger and far more lethal swings than warriors can).

Some of the best ideas proposed by Giacomo never saw the light of day, such as:
1) Reducing the training cost of CM and allowing warriors to triple in it
2) Implementation of manuevers as attacks
3) Reduction of stance modifications against manuever attacks (this was proposed because a level 30 or so warrior wearing chain was equally susceptable to manuevers as an unencumbered sorcerer in robes, due to a heavy stance penalty).
4) Group attack/defense pushdown based on CM training (now we have it, based on multi-opps training, but it’s a joke how small the pushdown is)
5) Ambush crit modifier capping (face it, most warriors who chose to hide and ambush did so because of the overpowered crit modifier for doing so.)

In GS4, the game has turned more to attrition as the means of killing, which at least, to me, has made the hunt boring to near intoxicating levels. There are many viable training paths, but the hunt itself has become a bore for me. I can get by a little more easily due to general advantages in equipment, but by no means are warriors pigeonholed into specific types of training. Generally, squares have the most freedom. Spellcasters can choose what spell they want to use, but I don't think you'll see spellcasters with anywhere near the amount of flexibility that rogues or warriors have. GS4 has tried to equalize the classes in terms of hunting prowess, which while great on the surface, I think has been detrimental to the game, because it has changed the scope of equipment quality tremendously. The people with good equipment nowadays have a far far greater advantage in the hunt than they did in GS3.

But I'll cap it with this as food for thought. In early 98, I held a kill the Tamral contest, during which I charged 5k for one swing, either from the open or from hiding. I was 60 trains at the time, and I prepared for the attack by sitting out in the open, with nothing out in offensive stance. I only had to pay the 100k prize for success 3 times, and each of the payouts went to someone swinging an extremely heavily weighted weapon from hiding with AS numbers well in excess of 800. even 100+ train rogue types such as Blades failed. I would hardly classify that as being penchant of a weak class.

As for the sorcerers paying more, towards the end of GS3 and getting heard more, I dont think that would explain why many sorcerer attacks were getting nerfed, much to even Romulus's dismay.

[GSTamral]

Plus, please explain how you know sorcerer's get played more than warriors. I'd love to know where you get your intimate knowledge of GS accounts.

Well, I don't know how official it would be, but this has been a question asked at several cons, and from most of the responses, they would indicate that bards and warriors are among the fewest in number.

I don't think you'd ever be able to get Gary, Elonka, or whoever the new GS product manager is to make any kind of official statement however. It took them almost a year and a half to finally admit DR had more regulars than GS.

[Lucas]

Yeah, I recalled Giacomo was one of the behind the sceners, Kuromaku was so prevalent on the message boards at the time that I just remember him. Kuromaku and I had some really long arguements, at one point he left the forum boards in mid reply and actually went into the game and took control of my warrior for an hour to try and "prove me wrong". But, in the end I think even Kuromaku knew that warriors were truly in need of fixing.

Finally, I think warriors have moved a step in the right direction (hence my recent interest in GS). But to be frank I really think the numbers prove it all, there were actually population surveys done (using some statistical sampling) to determine what the estimated profession population of GS was, it was posted in the GS3 forums. All I can recall was warriors were one of the least played professions and the top I definitively know was sorcerers & wizards (and by a clear margin).

Anyhow, do I think warriors still need fixing. Partly yes. Do I think they will ever get it? No, they probably will not.

[Artha]

Plus, please explain how you know sorcerer's get played more than warriors. I'd love to know where you get your intimate knowledge of GS accounts.
I would think that if you do who profession warrior vs who profession sorcerer regularly and at various times of the day, you could figure out which class is generally played more.

[DrZaius]

All I can recall was warriors were one of the least played professions and the top I definitively know was sorcerers & wizards (and by a clear margin).

Well, and this is just imho, I think this may be due less to the mechanical advantage of of a particular class over another, are more to what people are interested in playing. What I mean by this is, which would you rather be in a fantasy environment- someone swinging a sword (which Im sure anyone here could do anyways), or casting magical spells? I play warriors because I enjoy them, but I can definately see why more people enjoy playing wizards and sorcs. (on a sidenote- is it just me, or is every other person these days a damned dark-elf sorcerer? It's getting to be ridiculous.)

[mgoddess]

Anyhow, do I think warriors still need fixing. Partly yes. Do I think they will ever get it? No, they probably will not.

Exactly what do you think needs fixing about warriors? You've said a lot of stuff about RP, but the fact that they are fine mechanics-wise. RP is all in the way the PLAYER takes control of what the character does....warriors have PLENTY of opprotunities for RP, without what's available to them through verbs, warrior tricks, cmans, training, etc.

[GSTamral]

Yeah, I recalled Giacomo was one of the behind the sceners, Kuromaku was so prevalent on the message boards at the time that I just remember him. Kuromaku and I had some really long arguements, at one point he left the forum boards in mid reply and actually went into the game and took control of my warrior for an hour to try and "prove me wrong". But, in the end I think even Kuromaku knew that warriors were truly in need of fixing.

Finally, I think warriors have moved a step in the right direction (hence my recent interest in GS). But to be frank I really think the numbers prove it all, there were actually population surveys done (using some statistical sampling) to determine what the estimated profession population of GS was, it was posted in the GS3 forums. All I can recall was warriors were one of the least played professions and the top I definitively know was sorcerers & wizards (and by a clear margin).

Anyhow, do I think warriors still need fixing. Partly yes. Do I think they will ever get it? No, they probably will not.

Giacomo quit before Kuromaku ever came on board. Giacomo never even made it to the web due to frustration with the way Fawn essentially quagmired every one of his ideas.

I never had a problem in GS3 as a warrior. Titaniia did, but that was more an attestment to a horrible training path and her being a terrible hunter than class viability issues.

If less people like Berr existed (with spelltanking to the brim for every hunt), something would probably have been done sooner, but warriors were quite viable prior to stuns being implemented to PC's, did poorly from the stun implementation until redux, and then did well again post-redux.

I'm more concerned with the mechanics of hunting in GS4, which make the hunt so boring as to encourage scripting, as I am with class viability.

[Lucas]

Yeah, from what I'm seeing and reading about warriors and squares in general is the hunting factor. Actually, that was one of the main points of this thread the "fun factor" via mechanics.

However, if you ever played DR, the combat there is a bit more developed. Not only do they hide the numbers and add more description to the combat but the combat has a more believable quality. But I think in terms of potential level of complexity and the number of things one can do in combat GS is the frontrunner. What it needs right now is...

A.) An actual Ranged attack system. An experienced Longbowman can fire an arrow from 200 yrds away and kill you dead. It doesn't make any sense that a guy with a club can have any chance to attack you period. If you're 2 football fields apart from each other, the guy with club will never be able to swing at you. Either get rid of this idiotic system or just for gods sake put in an engagement system. Its really not that hard, you want to attack something it's going to take <crunch numbers through formula> seconds to get to that target. Adjust for polearmers (they have reach), toss in "running" and a few other features for spice and voila you've got engagment, it's like maybe 50 lines of code if that (depending upon how clean the GS code is).

B.) Tactical approach to combat, meaning the ability to take advantage of terrain, weather, and *positioning. The terrain and weather is self explanatory. Positioning means 3-dimensional positioning, now heres where it can get interesting. What I can't stand in GS is the ability for like 10 guys to get up on one guy and start swinging (this is just plain stupid). One can couple this with the engagement system, and have an attacker approach a person from a specific direction. In order for the defender to acknowledge (meaning get prepared to defend and counterattack) the defender must type face (the attacker). I know people's response to this, but we got MOC to deal with this, yeah well its kind of a cheap way of dealing with it. With positioning, combat opens up to so many new doors. Because now it *becomes a genuine physical world combat simulation*.

C.) Random occurences in combat, meaning a variable DS/AS/Critical depending upon situational circumstance. Distractions from new combatants entering a room, ability to think (chance to cast spell) during a particularly tumultuous melee or a chance fumble by your attacker.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't want to be thought of as a hunting profession while not being able to hunt regionally as fearlessly in many of the places as rogues, empaths, wizards, sorcerers, paladins, rangers, bards, warpuffs, clerics, savants and monks can and will be able to.I'd take a warrior over any profession in general, hunting-wise. It's really, really easy to kick the tar out of pures.

Pures have always been notoriously easy to script. There's a reason: their hunting "tactics" are stupefyingly boring. I'd rather have a profession where I need to do more than hit my stance off\rcbone \?\r macro.
and other classes can still easily generate much stronger and far more lethal swings than warriors canFarcically false. A rank 9 is a rank 9, and warriors can generate rank 9s very easily.
but it’s a joke how small the pushdown isYou should do a little more research on FoF. It's very easy to pushdown to stance offensive with even 4 people.
The people with good equipment nowadays have a far far greater advantage in the hunt than they did in GS3.It's actually far less. Crit weighting (and even moreso padding) is unbelievably useless. Flares are neat, but hardly overpowering. Damage weighting will at best shave one swing off of a hunt and probably not even that. Damage padding is less useless than crit weighting, but it's not a gamebreaker. I could go on, but instead I'll say the only place I see even a palpable advantage for high-end gear is returners in hurling.

Finally, I'd imagine you'd be bored hunting things like wasps and kiramon (or Temple now, IIRC). Go give Illoke a whirl.
Not only do they hide the numbers Hiding numbers is a terrible idea.
Its really not that hardlol. You program it then.
Because now it *becomes a genuine physical world combat simulation*What makes you think people even want that? Further, why do you think the code for these things is trivially easy to write?
Random occurences in combatd100, open d100 (hiss!), and crit randomization already make combat pretty random.

[Lucas]

I'll gladly program an engagement system. Give me a month and access to the GS code (I can even work offline and upload it when done). It seems like an all encompassing ..."engagement system"...shudder. But it's really not. The difficulty is really in the high level stuff, I know GS uses C language, and if all the programmers that worked on the GS code kept it neat and with good comments the coding itself isnt a problem. The problem is more political, GMs need to decide on a particular "fair engagement" system. (which can take a lot of probability analysis) and the players need to agree (which can become impossible).

[GSTamral]

I'd take a warrior over any profession in general, hunting-wise. It's really, really easy to kick the tar out of pures.

Pures have always been notoriously easy to script. There's a reason: their hunting "tactics" are stupefyingly boring. I'd rather have a profession where I need to do more than hit my stance off\rcbone \?\r macro.Farcically false. A rank 9 is a rank 9, and warriors can generate rank 9s very easily.You should do a little more research on FoF. It's very easy to pushdown to stance offensive with even 4 people.It's actually far less. Crit weighting (and even moreso padding) is unbelievably useless. Flares are neat, but hardly overpowering. Damage weighting will at best shave one swing off of a hunt and probably not even that. Damage padding is less useless than crit weighting, but it's not a gamebreaker. I could go on, but instead I'll say the only place I see even a palpable advantage for high-end gear is returners in hurling.

Finally, I'd imagine you'd be bored hunting things like wasps and kiramon (or Temple now, IIRC). Go give Illoke a whirl.Hiding numbers is a terrible idea.lol. You program it then.What makes you think people even want that? Further, why do you think the code for these things is trivially easy to write?d100, open d100 (hiss!), and crit randomization already make combat pretty random.

Other professions have a far easier time generating a rank 9 on a freshly spawned critter (generally from hiding) than a warrior does. And the stancedown I was referring to was from multiple critters in a room. 5 or 6 critters push down a pure=s defenses very little. Generally not nearly enough to make a difference.

As for the equipment thing, I beg to differ. I generally hunt in Maaghara, and I don't see any other warrior who can even come close to being as effective in the hunt, due almost entirely to equipment. I agree about equipment being even more of a factor with thrown weapons (Hakonne's 4x heavily weighted returning axe is just outright sick).

In GS4, hunting in Illoke for example.
A typical warrior at 65 trains swings in the ballpark 420 range, has a defense in the neighborhood of 250ish.
Compare that in the new system with having an attack in the 550 range, a defense around 400 in offensive, and added manuever defense, with masterful damage padded armor.

It makes a much bigger difference now than it did in GS3, because attrition does not apply nearly as much. Far fewer swings are needed, and while padding and weighting have been nerfed, having outstanding general equipment (spell items, DB) makes a much larger difference than before.

[mgoddess]

And the stancedown I was referring to was from multiple critters in a room. 5 or 6 critters push down a pure=s defenses very little. Generally not nearly enough to make a difference.

Granted, the pushdown in defensive stance might not be very much, but comparing my pure's to my squares, the DS pushdown in offensive with 4-6 critters is a HELL of a lot more for the pures who are NOT trained in MoC compared to the squares who are. My wizard can lose between 10 and 50 DS (stance defensive to offensive) from a swarm, compared to my warrior losing none....

[Latrinsorm]

In GS4, hunting in Illoke for example.
A typical warrior at 65 trains swings in the ballpark 420 range, has a defense in the neighborhood of 250ish.
Compare that in the new system with having an attack in the 550 range, a defense around 400 in offensive, and added manuever defense, with masterful damage padded armor.You didn't say "130 worth of AS and 150 DS" gear, you said "good equipment". What do you have, a 32x weapon?

[Drew]

If you want an engagement system go play DragonRealms. I don't, that's why I play GS.

[StrayRogue]

An engagement system will never happen in GS4. I don't think I've ever played a MUD/text based one that didn't suck either.

[TheEschaton]

(on a sidenote- is it just me, or is every other person these days a damned dark-elf sorcerer? It's getting to be ridiculous.)


This is why I hardly ever play my Dark Elf sorc any more. Too bad, I put quite a bit of effort into his backstory.


-TheE-

[Lucas]

"You didn't say "130 worth of AS and 150 DS" gear, you said "good equipment". What do you have, a 32x weapon?"


Crap load of rubbables with all kinds of AS/DS spells, 10x DB items, a 10x flaring or whatever weapon, those nifty use your own mana spirit strike items, nifty plate mail that regens HP, oh and of course Tsin's mace that gives you a +200 AS bonus (thats a 40x weapon by the way)..any more questions?

[GSTamral]

"You didn't say "130 worth of AS and 150 DS" gear, you said "good equipment". What do you have, a 32x weapon?"


Crap load of rubbables with all kinds of AS/DS spells, 10x DB items, a 10x flaring or whatever weapon, those nifty use your own mana spirit strike items, nifty plate mail that regens HP, oh and of course Tsin's mace that gives you a +200 AS bonus (thats a 40x weapon by the way)..any more questions?

Yes on the 10x DB, yes on the 10x gear, the armor is only 8x though with masterful padding, and a whole lot of self mana and self charging items, with spells like 425, strength, benediction, bravery, etc… In the end, it makes an enormous difference, and it changes the scope of the concept of attrition.

[Celephais]

"You didn't say "130 worth of AS and 150 DS" gear, you said "good equipment". What do you have, a 32x weapon?"


Crap load of rubbables with all kinds of AS/DS spells, 10x DB items, a 10x flaring or whatever weapon, those nifty use your own mana spirit strike items, nifty plate mail that regens HP, oh and of course Tsin's mace that gives you a +200 AS bonus (thats a 40x weapon by the way)..any more questions?

That +200 isn't every swing, and you have to be level 100 to get +200, not 65. Self mana spirit strike items will drain a warriors mana pool FAST (now several 40 charge blue crystals shouldn't be too hard for anybody to obtain, cheaper too).

A vanilla giant 65th warrior can pretty much obtain max str bonus on their own IIRC (so str doesn't help). We'll say the typical 65th has a 6x, so your "good equipment" has a 10x... that's 20 AS. 425 - 25 AS, benediction - 5AS, Heroism - 25AS, Emp Focus (do any self mana/charging of these even exist?) - 15AS, Dauntless - 10AS, Zealot - 30AS... That's 130 more AS... And they'd all have to be self charging to not burn through a warriors pool. That is hardly "Good equipment"

[AnticorRifling]

The best warrior is a properly trained wizard.

[GSTamral]

That +200 isn't every swing, and you have to be level 100 to get +200, not 65. Self mana spirit strike items will drain a warriors mana pool FAST (now several 40 charge blue crystals shouldn't be too hard for anybody to obtain, cheaper too).

A vanilla giant 65th warrior can pretty much obtain max str bonus on their own IIRC (so str doesn't help). We'll say the typical 65th has a 6x, so your "good equipment" has a 10x... that's 20 AS. 425 - 25 AS, benediction - 5AS, Heroism - 25AS, Emp Focus (do any self mana/charging of these even exist?) - 15AS, Dauntless - 10AS, Zealot - 30AS... That's 130 more AS... And they'd all have to be self charging to not burn through a warriors pool. That is hardly "Good equipment"

10x over 6x is 20 AS.
Benediction is + 5. (Yes, self mana and self chargers exist)
Strength is +15 (Yes, self mana and self chargers exist)
Bravery is +15 (Self mana and self chargers exist)
Elemental Targetting it +25 (no self mana to my knowledge, but self chargers exist in abundance)
Heroism is +25. (no self mana to my knowledge, but plenty of self chargers)

I use the above which imparts a +105 in total. Throw on not all warriors are CoL/Giantman/maxed in surge of strength, and its an average gap of 130 or so. I would certainly classify the above as being good equipment.

Zealot is +30 (self mana exists, I've never seen a self charger)

As for the mana argument, I'm nearly singled in focus, so mana generally isn't a problem.

The extra 150 or so DS primarily comes from a 10x shield, 8x armor, 10x DB, and various defensive spells.

One of the largest benefits I've seen is the benefit of self mana mobiles combined with being doubled in dodge as a warrior in plate. The perceived benefit is tremendous.

[Celephais]

Nearly singled in focus? You mean Harness power? If you were even 0.5x'd in it I agree that'd be sufficient for the items listed, it's still a point sink (although it does cost less than I thought, I just checked it, 10mtp...). I didn't question the existance of the other selfmana/chargers, just emp focus because it's relatively newer.

I'm going against an average 65th warrior, and if they aren't maxed on str bonus, getting strength isn't overly difficult (being the only non-self cast listed).

And I was just backing Latrinstorm in saying that "Good" hardly qualifies, that's an amazing set of equipment for a 65th warrior. Any class compared to a like level individual with an equipment set like that would seem overshadowed. Less so with a CS based hunter, but defensively they would be outclassed.

[Lucas]

On a side note, has anyone checked out the paladin spells/skills? My god they are overpowered... Basically they ARE a warrior, just with massive amount of backup spells. Just breezing through their spell circle I can think of a number of CM skill/spell combos that'll easily make these guys overpowered.

[Artha]

I'm pretty sure they've replaced bards as having the greatest AS generation.

[StrayRogue]

On a side note, has anyone checked out the paladin spells/skills? My god they are overpowered... Basically they ARE a warrior, just with massive amount of backup spells. Just breezing through their spell circle I can think of a number of CM skill/spell combos that'll easily make these guys overpowered.

You seriously need to do some research and stop pulling wanton statements out of your ass.

Getting over level 25 might make anything you say worthwhile or valid.

[Drew]

I'm pretty sure they've replaced bards as having the greatest AS generation.



Yep the order of highest AS for swinging classes to lowest goes:

Paladin
Bard
Warrior
Rogue
Ranger


Keep in mind the drop between rogue and ranger is pretty huge so it's not as bad for rogues as it looks, especially so if rogues go more than 1x CM.

[StrayRogue]

AS isn't everything, however.

[Drew]

AS isn't everything, however.


Blasphemy!

[holocene]

Crit'em in the head say I.

[Olanan]

I like eye better.

Because everyone knows archer rogues are better than any warrior. :)

[Lucas]

I just want to know, which of these two guys are better at hunting and what exactly makes them the better. I might consider converting to paladin, because I'm hashing out the numbers and they seem to win hands down on AS, DS, and with partial REDUX. The TPs seem to be similar and they get cool spells. Hmm....

[Artha]

Because everyone knows archer rogues are better than any warrior.

Archer rogues are awesome if you like never being as good as a ranger.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I get a little disappointed that feint was turned into a CMAN that would require me to turtle in order to use it efficiently. Berserk was a non-stamina technique. I think I've seen other professions using the feint attack before, as well.

Feint is available to: Warriors, Rogues, Wizards, Clerics, Empaths, Sorcerers, Rangers, Bards, Savants, Monks, Paladins. I don't need to turtle to use it effectively. As a matter of fact, it seems to work better in offensive.


Most of the warrior tricks I can implement as role-playing tools are better suited for professions like rogues and bards as is. When is the last time you have actually seen a warrior incorporating the WTRICK JUGGLE element throughout his or her common GemStone routine?

It's a part of my RP, actually.


Off topic: Stanley, where in the Bronx are you? My mom still lives in our old apartment on E 242 & White Plains Road. My Dad lives in Parkchester.

[StrayRogue]

Paladins are only really viable as one-handed edged/blunt with a shield. They aren't as versatile as a warrior in regards to their selection of weapons. In effect they are designed around using a shield.

[Warriorbird]

My warrior uses Juggle.

[Stanley Burrell]

Warriors still fellate moreso than any other profession, btw.

[Ignot]

Warriors still fellate moreso than any other profession, btw.

Does that mean they give more BJ's?

[Fallen]

Buh? A semi-magical warrior is nearly unkillable. If I were going to roll another profession, it would most definitely be a warrior.