WARCRIES

[heisagoalie]

Hi, I'm making a new warrior, and will be doing the guild for the first time...I thought warcries would be really cool, what stats increase its effectiveness? and what are other good guild skills?

[Artha]

Charisma helps it. Tackle's going to be pretty useful, and berserk.

[mgoddess]

Warrior Tricks are pretty damn useful too...even if they get repetitive.

[Latrinsorm]

You'll have to excuse Artha, he hasn't played in a bajillion years. The relevant stat for Warcries is now known as Influence.

Tricks and Berserk are by far the most useful warrior guild skills. A knockdown maneuver of some kind is useful, but I strongly recommend getting a CMAN skill over Tackle. Warcries' debilitative functions are completely obsoleted by Feint's, fyi.

[El Burro]

Tricks and berserk for sure. The best part about tackle is you can learn it in the guild and use your CMAN points on other cool moves. Skills for free.

[Aaysia]

Tricks and berserk like everyone else said.

Only thing I use warcry for is shout for groups. Or Carn's cry when you want to bind stuff in fear, or make friends run away when they bug you too much :D. I was glad I got most of the partner stuff out of the way first though.. except for disarm. Pain in the ass to find partners for that

[Latrinsorm]

The best part about tackle is you can learn it in the guild and use your CMAN points on other cool moves. Skills for free.I'd say the opportunity cost it takes to master tackle and the 2 seconds you lose every time you use it far outweigh the usefulness of mastering one more CMAN skill for warriors (it's not like we're struggling for CMAN points). I bet someone could master berserk AND tricks in the time it took to get tackle to even reliable levels, especially now that the berserk fatigue has been removed.

[El Burro]

I'd say the opportunity cost it takes to master tackle and the 2 seconds you lose every time you use it far outweigh the usefulness of mastering one more CMAN skill for warriors (it's not like we're struggling for CMAN points). I bet someone could master berserk AND tricks in the time it took to get tackle to even reliable levels, especially now that the berserk fatigue has been removed.

We're not struggling with CMAN points because warriors were so weak prior to the CMAN system. Not sure I'd call it a band-aid but we should have the most CMAN points. Believe me I used all of mine and wish I had more lol

Which CMANs do you recommend? I find myself using feint much more than any of the maneuver CMANs and I agree, using tackle very rarely. My personal favorite however is Coup De Grace... Heady rushes make me smile every time.

My CMANs include Movement, Focus, Surge (must have), Combat Mobility, Parry Mastery, Weapon Spec, Weapon Bonding and Coup De Grace.

What are the best maneuvers for you?

[Latrinsorm]

Weapon Bonding I agree is a must-have for almost any warrior build. At least one rank of Surge is also a good thing, but a little harder to use early on.

My warrior makes heavy use of Shield Bash, but he happens to 3x shield so I can't really recommend that for everyone. Of course he uses Feint constantly and Berserk has saved him dozens of times. He also has Disarm through the guild (more from my stubbornness than any combat utility) and Block Mastery (along with the prerequisite wspec for Bonding).

I'd say cmovement is not worth having at all, the 4th and 5th ranks of wspec have a very questionable return to cost ratio, and ranks past the 2nd of surge have the same problem. I plan to pick up Focus, Mobility and at least a rank of Surge later though, definitely.

Really though, with Bonding, Focus, Mobility and some Surge, there are plenty of points left over to master a good knockdown maneuver. No other maneuvers are really even all that useful, let alone essential. Truehand and CDG (and some others that I'm sure I'm forgetting) are *nice*, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they're worth the 2 second sacrifice (and minor benefits) of tackle.

[Insodus]

Thought I'd throw in my personal delema in here to see what you guys think.

I'm about to retrain since I haven't in years (now lvl 46).

My requirements:
-TWC longswords
-Full plate
-Viable for all attack types, Melee Bolt Ranged CS

I am...



Two Weapon Combat..................| 196 96 96
Armor Use..........................| 219 119 119
Shield Use.........................| 167 67 67
Combat Maneuvers...................| 189 89 89
Edged Weapons......................| 196 96 96
Brawling...........................| 196 96 96
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 130 35 35
Physical Fitness...................| 162 62 62
Dodging............................| 164 64 64
Arcane Symbols.....................| 120 30 30
Magic Item Use.....................| 70 15 15
Perception.........................| 120 30 30
Climbing...........................| 70 15 15
Swimming...........................| 50 10 10
Training Points: 0 Phy 149 Mnt (122 Mnt converted to Phy)

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Headbutt headbutt 1
Specialization I wspec1 5
Weapon Bonding bonding 4
Combat Mobility mobility 1
Surge of Strength surge 5

Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 2



Currently wearing 4x chain because I gave away my half plate when I took a break 2 years ago. But I've come across some 5x swcp full plate.

Basically with this setup I brawl with a shield out and do just fine with just voln spells. If I use my dual longswords or hunt something that attacks with CS based attacks I get pretty much destroyed. It hasnt been a problem really since I never have a problem getting at least basic spells (400's and 100's). With those I can hunt just about everywhere.

I want to retrain so that I can wear plate and hunt just about anything without spells.

Since we can now bless enchanted stuff, I've been hunting with my dual 7x longswords and using almost no brawling. So I was thinking...

armor to 140
Max edged
Max TWC
Max CM
35 ranks of MOC
Max dodge
2x PT

Ditching shield, brawling. I kind of liked having a shield for when I up hunted or invasions (also bolt DS). But if I go from 1.5x to 3x dodging will I offset it enough so I won't even see the difference? (Dodge effects all 3 types of DS, right?)

Second half of the question...

As far as CMANs, I'm totally pissed off at Surge because it provides +20 AS to main hand yet only +2 AS to off hand. Which is retarded in my opinion being a TWC user. So I want to ditch it, also headbutt was an experiment because I got a heavy damage padded, scripted, spiked helm I wanted to play with. So that can go.

I have about 30 ranks of all my guild skills, so I'm fairly proficient at tackle and thus don't need a CMAN to knockdown. Same goes for stunman basically since I will master berserk soon.

What do you suggest with the extra points? I was thinking combat movement and combat focus for the extra DS and TD. Since my end goal is to be viable against all attack types without any spells. Along the same lines was thinking about parry mastery. (Or block mastery if I ended up squezzing in shield use)

Thanks in advance for suggestions.

[Anebriated]

They reduced the stam cost of berserk? Its like 12 per right now which is killing my warrior who only has like 80 to start with.

[Latrinsorm]

There's no way for a warrior to be invulnerable through DS and TD without using spells; not even with 3x Dodge.

The best way to be viable (as a warrior) is to debilitate your foe in such a way as to preclude being cast at and attain a state where incident non-flaring physical attacks are laughably ineffective (read: plate + redux). The best ways to debilitate a foe are to kill it or put it in RT. It's generally impossible to reliably kill stuff in one shot unless you're in a very specific hurling plan (which has its own problems) or hide/ambush (which you're really better off being a rogue for). It's generally very easy to put casters in RT with combat maneuvers such as feint or dirtkick. Stuns are good too, but a lot of creatures have a nasty habit of breaking stuns whenever they feel like. Some maneuvers offer alternatives to these solutions; two I can think of immediately are headbutt (wound the creature so badly they can't cast) and bearhug (I don't think creatures can do anything while bearhugged, I could be wrong though). The issue with these is that they're slower and less reliable than feint, and even feint isn't good enough sometimes.

As to your proposed training plan, 3x Dodge is murderously expensive. Assuming 2x Armor and before MOC, your plan costs 64/32, which is going to be *really* hard to do. The biggest benefit from surge (in my mind) is encumbrance help rather than AS bonus.

No warrior should ever have combat movement. The only hunting area that even offers a lick of support for having it is OT'F due to flarers. If you have berserk, feint, and tackle, good choices for maneuvers are parry mastery, focus, bonding, combat mobility, surge (recognizing your distaste for it, it's still really handy), sunder, and possibly truehand/qstrike (I'm not sure what TWC longswords cost for those). None of these are real gangbusters of maneuvers, naturally, but they can all really come in handy.

[Insodus]

Thats what I pretty much figured.

As far as effectiveness, wtrick feint is on par with a 5/5 cman feint?

For all my non-warrior melee characters I tend to get feint first, but I always figured a combination of warcry growl and tackle would do the same if not better than feint for my warrior.

For surge, has anyone brought that up on the officials? I see no logical reason why the strength bonus wouldn't get factored into your off-hand swing. I mean the base bonus does, why not modified bonus?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<For surge, has anyone brought that up on the officials? I see no logical reason why the strength bonus wouldn't get factored into your off-hand swing. I mean the base bonus does, why not modified bonus?>>

I thought off-hand weapons used dexterity for AS instead of strength?

[Insodus]

Aha, thats great to know.

In fact that makes more sense. My stats....

Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 94 (27) ... 94 (27)

So my base swing (before enchant and spells and all) is 266, both offhand and mainhand. Now, I know the offhand can be no higher than the mainhand. So normally, edged bonus + str bonus + CM ranks/2 = 266. And offhand, edged bonus + dex bonus + cm ranks/2 = 268. So the offhand is capped off at 266. But when I hit the surge my mainhand goes to edged bonus + (str bonus+20) + cm ranks/2 = 286. So the last 2 of the dex bonus that normally gets cut off is allowed to go through.

It all makes sense now. Bob you are a wealth of knowledge.

However, that just makes me not want surge even more. I travel very light so encumbrance doesnt mean much to me. Maybe I'll finish off those headbutt ranks and wear my spiked helm again.

[Stunseed]

< good choices for maneuvers are parry mastery, focus, bonding, combat mobility, surge and possibly truehand/qstrike >

Agreed, though if you're looking for a deciding factor for one swing, I think I'd take Mighty Blow over Truehand. I'm planning for all the above and including some bullrush. Parry mastery with two weapons should be sweet.

[Latrinsorm]

Bob is indeed a wealth of knowledge. He is also, however, human.

The left (or "off") hand uses the lower of Strength and Dexterity bonuses. This is why Surge increases your offhand AS by 2; it makes the lowest bonus 27 (dex) instead of 25 (str).

Warcries are much less effective and slower than feint. Tackle + feint will always be better than tackle + growl.

A mastered warrior guild skill is the equivalent of CMAN rank 6.3.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<This is why Surge increases your offhand AS by 2; it makes the lowest bonus 27 (dex) instead of 25 (str).>>

I'm still partially right! w00t!

Although I know exactly why I assumed it was dex all the time -- only pussies have a higher dex bonus than strength bonus.

[Insodus]

So all elves, half-elves, gnomes, halflings, aelotoi, and erithians are pussies?

[Bobmuhthol]

Actually, yes, they are.

[TheEschaton]

Wait, they got rid of berserk fatigue? I can actually use it effectively now?


-TheE-

[Aaysia]

only time you get fatigue now is when you're alarmingly low on stamina

[Latrinsorm]

The more important thing is that berserk can be activated while stunned/bound/webbed, but yes, the tired muscles thing has been replaced with the stamina system.