Holocaust denier sentanced to jail

[Wezas]

I'm definitely coming in late to the story, but I've seen a few articles on this guy in the past day or two


Jewish leaders and historians have welcomed the conviction of Holocaust denier David Irving amid concerns that his jail sentence is too harsh a penalty.

A 3 year prison term for writing a book that challenged the extent of the Holocaust?

Am I missing something or is this a bit out of line?

http://smh.com.au/news/world/jews-split-on-jail-term-for-irving-holocaust-denier/2006/02/21/1140284067577.html

[Back]

Pretty sure that just after WWII the nations of Europe made it a serious crime to deny the Holocaust.

[Tsa`ah]

It's Austrian law, though a bit out dated at this point.

I'd rather have someone prove they're an idiot than have an idiot keep a tight lip due to legal ramifications.

Though it is interesting that he down plays his views and back peddles when faced with jail time. His convictions seem to be up on block for attention and taken down when he has to answer for them. Not much different than Paolo Di Canio.

[GSLeloo]

I think people who believe the holocaust never happened are just complete morons but.. I don't know if I agree with jail time for writing a book. I get that it's law and maybe it makes sense there but from my American standpoint I don't really agree with it.

[DeV]

This is why it's important to know the laws of the country you're visiting. Oh, and it's also good to know if there is an arrest warrant issued for you in said country, prior to giving a lecture on the very subject the warrant references.

[xtc]

It's Austrian law, though a bit out dated at this point.

I'd rather have someone prove they're an idiot than have an idiot keep a tight lip due to legal ramifications.

Though it is interesting that he down plays his views and back peddles when faced with jail time. His convictions seem to be up on block for attention and taken down when he has to answer for them. Not much different than Paolo Di Canio.

Agreed wholeheartedly. As repugnant and distasteful as his views are he should have the legal right to them. Similarly the Mohammed cartoons issue, repugnant and distasteful but the paper should have the right to publish them. I was trying to convey that to two young Muslim community leaders last night. For a society to be truly free it needs to tolerate the views and opinions of morons and idiots from time to time. To me that is the essence of free speech which I believe is one of the key building blocks of a democratic society.

[Landrion]

It's Austrian law, though a bit out dated at this point.

I'd rather have someone prove they're an idiot than have an idiot keep a tight lip due to legal ramifications.

Though it is interesting that he down plays his views and back peddles when faced with jail time. His convictions seem to be up on block for attention and taken down when he has to answer for them. Not much different than Paolo Di Canio.

Cant say I blame him. Faced with a society that was willing to jail me for a book Id happily lie to them, get out of their wretched jurisdiction and get on with my life.

[Skirmisher]

I'm not so sure I'd call a country that had to deal with the backlash from around the world and so imposed laws to try to show they were not like him "wretched".

Yes, I have come to think they should remove the law but I find it shortsighted and not a little naive to be quite so vociferous in attacks on such a country when the reasons why such laws were enacted are looked at for even a short time.

[Hulkein]

If I didn't believe the Holocaust happened, I'd still backpedal to get out of three years jail time.

It's not like he's denying his God or abondening his family by backpedaling... I don't think it shows much about his convictions.

[Landrion]

I'm not so sure I'd call a country that had to deal with the backlash from around the world and so imposed laws to try to show they were not like him "wretched".

Yes, I have come to think they should remove the law but I find it shortsighted and not a little naive to be quite so vociferous in attacks on such a country when the reasons why such laws were enacted are looked at for even a short time.

That merits some clarification/rewording on my part. Neither Austria or Austrians are bad or wretched. But to jail someone for a book is a wretched thing to do. So, if I were to reword my first statement

Cant say I blame him. Faced with a society that was willing to jail me for a book Id happily lie to them, get out of the jurisdiction where such a wretched thing would be done and get on with my life.

[Wezas]

I heard on the radio the other day that if you do the hail Hitler sign or march around like a Nazi you can be arrested in Germany.

[xtc]

I heard on the radio the other day that if you do the hail Hitler sign or march around like a Nazi you can be arrested in Germany.

No goose stepping in the Fatherland. As Tsa'ah pointed out those laws are dated. There was a special last week on A&E on White Supremists groups, did any of you see it?

[Wezas]

I'll check with Arkans, he probably taped it.

[Hulkein]

That was the old Arkans.

[Tsa`ah]

Cant say I blame him. Faced with a society that was willing to jail me for a book Id happily lie to them, get out of their wretched jurisdiction and get on with my life.


If I didn't believe the Holocaust happened, I'd still backpedal to get out of three years jail time.

It's not like he's denying his God or abondening his family by backpedaling... I don't think it shows much about his convictions.

Which is all well and good for either of you, you're not "historians". Nor have your careers been built on the shaky foundation that Irving pursued.

He was like some extremely scrawny, overly fat, or plainly average kid posting non-stop bile on a message board. One day the kid decides to attend a social gathering between other board members and cries foul when he gets the holy shit kicked out of him.

Lesson? Stay in your basement and only come out to visit places that are going to imprison you for breaking their laws. Irving didn't do that. He spread his vomit and decided to take it to the masses of a nation that has laws in place to prevent him from doing just that.

The guy is a moron and deserves jail over his stupidity alone ... though not for being some idiot who likes to deny/diminish the holocaust. His back peddling just shoots his own credibility down.

[Wezas]

Wait, he's Klaive?

[xtc]

Despite Irving's repugnant views I think 3 years is excessive. Irving was foolish to travel to Austria knowing their laws but I can't condone jailing someone for an opinion, no matter how repugnant that opinion may be.

[Numbers]

It could be worse.

Germany has extremely strict laws regarding this sort of stuff. He should have known this beforehand. People are free to whatever opinions they want to have, just as long as it doesn't harm anyone else or doesn't break any laws. He broke a German law.

But if he was in a Muslim country discussing something equally taboo, he probably would have been stoned or burned to death.

[xtc]

It could be worse.

Germany has extremely strict laws regarding this sort of stuff. He should have known this beforehand. People are free to whatever opinions they want to have, just as long as it doesn't harm anyone else or doesn't break any laws. He broke a German law.

But if he was in a Muslim country discussing something equally taboo, he probably would have been stoned or burned to death.

I think the idea that an opinion breaks a law is ridiculous regardless of the opinion. Yes, he was a dumbass for going to a country where he knew his opinions were a crime. I am curious, does he have to spout his opinions in Austria to break the law?

Islam trails Christianity by 400 years, give it time.

[Numbers]

I think the idea that an opinion breaks a law is ridiculous regardless of the opinion.

You're right, I didn't phrase that part of my post that well.

People are free to whatever opinions they want. But a lot of it depends on what that opinion is and how they express that opinion. This guy expressed his opinion by publishing something in a country where that opinion is very taboo and, as it happens, very against the law.

It would be similar to somebody publishing a book in America that says everybody should try to assassinate Bush. I mean, hell, they're arresting 7th graders for that.

[Latrinsorm]

I think one way Austria could get around the whole totalitarian rights-annihilating thing would be to say that one cannot have an opinion on whether or not the Holocaust occurred, therefore to print that it didn't is libel (slander?) against every victim and their families. I don't know what the jail time is for libel in Austria, but I imagine that whatever it is times 10 million will get at least 3 years. It's a little shaky, sure, but it beats "think what we tell you to because we say so".

[Tsa`ah]

Mostly I agree that jail time for denial borders on the ridiculous side of things. I do stand by thought of even though he shouldn't have been jailed for his thoughts and publishings ... he should serve jail time on the merit of his stupidity. He never should have stepped foot into a country with those laws.