Hybrid vehicles: what do you think about them?

[Gan]

As I start the long process of researching and purchasing a new vehicle this year, there are things that are weighing heavily on my mind about what kind of vehicle we should purchase. And I think its time to walk the walk when it comes to my family's choice of driving/owning economically and environmentally responsible vehicles. And no, bicycles are not an option, otherwise it would be all about my Trek in the garage.

Our requirements are having a vehicle that is safe, large enough for a family of 3 possibly 4, capable of making long distance drives of 3 hours or longer, and less dependant on fuel (hybrid) as well as environmentally friendly.

For those who own hybrids:

Who out here has experience with hybrids and what are the pitfalls of owning one?
What are the less obvious benefits of owning one?
And do you plan on purchasing another one when the time comes?Here's a pretty informative site on hybrid cars and hybrid technology. I'll share more as I find them.

http://www.carbuyingtips.com/hybrid-cars.htm

[Artha]

Fuck that static, buy an H2 and own the road.

[Ebondale]

Hell yeah, buy an H2 and put a lift kit on that bitch with some monster truck tires. Own the road.

;)

[Drew]

If you are buying a hybrid to save money, you are buying it for the wrong reason. It will take over 10 years or more to make up in gas money saved the premium you pay for the hybrid.

The only real reason to buy a hybrid in my mind is to make a statement. It says that you care about the enviroment more than the next guy (with the issues of battery disposal though, it's debatable). Hybrids are like muscle cars, big trucks, volvos, whatever else. People buy them to make a statement.

[Jack]

I figure I can chime in here a little... My knowledge of hybrids mostly consists of the Lexus RX400h, since I work at a Lexus Dealership, on Lexus Vehicles. It isn't the most fuel efficient vehicle on the market by any means, realisticly you can expect about 22 MPG in the city, and 18 or so on the highway. That said, it produces drasticly less emissions, since the gasoline engine only runs when nescessary. The high end RX400h uses three electric motors, MG1, MG2, and MGR (Rear). MG1 basicly acts as the transmission for the vehicle, MG2 is attached directly to the front wheels, while MGR is attached direcly to the rear wheels. Anyway, before I go into too many technical details, the design is, the vehicle runs on three electric motors, assisted by the 3.3 liter V-6 engine. If you have the money to spend, I'd certainly recomend it.

[Drew]

Jack, do you have a parts/price list for replacement batteries for the RX400h? I'd heard that the car companies are selling them at a big loss so as not to turn people away from hybrids.

[Jazuela]

I just read an article about the 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid. It's currently a prototype but once they get the bugs out they're planning on selling it for around $25,000, and it compares in features/quality to the Prius. Estimated MPG is 40-something but an actual test-drive of the model was 35-37. The writer said he went to NYC and back from somewhere in New Haven county, and had 1/3 of a tank of gas left over. So that would put it at over 3 hours total drive time. He calculated the 147HP engine as slightly under 9 seconds for 0 to 60MPH, with slow reverse and a slightly laggy initial thrust from 0. He said it the ride was smooth and very pleasant, and he and his wife would definitely consider buying one if the price doesn't change too drastically.

Reasonable price for a new car, excellent gas mileage, it's a Toyota, which has a good history in general, oh and he said also that it's being manufactured in Kentucky, so the whole American-Made is a huge bonus.

[Warriorbird]

I sure wouldn't buy one for a long while. One area where I will unabashedly say, "Listen to Jack." even if his conclusions are different. They really don't provide all that substantial a fuel efficiency difference on the ones you'd actually want to drive. If you care about the environment, rock on with your bad self, if not? Don't buy one.

[Gan]

I'm not considering a hybrid for saving money. I'm interested in buying a vehicle that replaces my truck which uses gas at 12 to 16 mpg and thus becomes less dependant on foreign oil/gas.

I guess I could do the same buying something that just got greater mpg's. The net result is less fuel used = less consumption = less demand for foreign oil.

Thanks for the info on the Lexus, Jack. We gave that one a strong look. Does it have a 3rd row seat by chance?

I also heard that the batteries used have an 8 year warranty for the most part.

[Jack]

The RX400h doesn't have a third row seat unfortunately. Allthough it's marketed as an SUV, it's really sort of a cross between minivan and SUV.... It can seat five fairly comfortably. I have not seen any issues with the hybrid battery, so couldn't tell you exactly how much it would cost to replace, but most likely it would either be covered under warranty, or taken care of through the Lexus Good Will program. Good Will works the same way warranty does, but can be applied to any vehicle, regardless of age, or milage, at the discression of the service manager. So, if you are a good customer, come in for all your service, then your engine, transmission, or some other major catastrophe happens, the service manager can sign off on it, and you pay nothing.

In a couple months, the 2007 GS450h will be hitting the market, which is a rather sporty looking mid sized sedan, using a 3.5 liter V-6, and two electric motors. Since Lexus is going to direct cylinder injection on all new motors, they are fairly fuel efficient on their own, with the added hybrid drive, you can expect to see a little better gas milage in the city, with no real benifit on the highway.

If you want a car that just sips gas and screams tree hugger, there's always the Toyota Prius.... Before buying a Lexus, keep in mind that on top of the vehicle cost, service costs can be quite high. On a hybrid, you really don't wanna take it to Billy Bob Automotive for service, so you can expect to pay 95 dollars per labor hour, plus some pretty high parts prices. (75 dollars for a set of brake pads, 3 hours labor for a brake job for example) That said, when you come into the dealership, you'll be greeted by a cute blonde girl, given free cokes, coffee, and snacks, get to watch a giant flat screen TV, or if the job is more than 1 hour, you get a free lexus loaner car. There's three Lexus dealers in the Houston Area, Lexus of Clear Lake, on 45 S, right before Baybrook Mall, Westside Lexus, on I-10 out near Katy, and North Side Lexus, somewhere on the north side of town.... I work at Lexus of Clear Lake. Anyway, if you have any other questions, ask away.

[Warriorbird]

I guess I could do the same buying something that just got greater mpg's. The net result is less fuel used = less consumption = less demand for foreign oil.

What I'd do in your position. That sedan sounds nice, too. I mainly question hybrid utility in the SUV market.

[Gan]

What I'd do in your position. That sedan sounds nice, too. I mainly question hybrid utility in the SUV market.

Agreed, the sad part is that the SUV market is where the greatest ground can be gained from improving mpg's once the technology gets there. There's not much difference between a civic and a prius with regards to fuel economy, capacity, etc.

Also thanks for the info about the other side to vehicle ownership Jack. Maintenance is an issue most do not consider until after the fact, and with hybrids I can see where the hourly rate would really jump due to the level of technical expertise required to service one.

[Back]

And while you are being a conscientious citizen our government is giving larger tax breaks for small companies who buy gas guzzlers (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060218/ap_on_bi_ge/suvs_tax_breaks). Where is the justice? The logic?

[xtc]

If you are buying a hybrid to save money, you are buying it for the wrong reason. It will take over 10 years or more to make up in gas money saved the premium you pay for the hybrid.

The only real reason to buy a hybrid in my mind is to make a statement. It says that you care about the enviroment more than the next guy (with the issues of battery disposal though, it's debatable). Hybrids are like muscle cars, big trucks, volvos, whatever else. People buy them to make a statement.

I haven't checked prices on hybrids, are you sure the price difference would take 10 years to make or did you just pull that number out of thin air. I was thinking of picking a hybrid for my mother's next car but I haven't done the research. If it is going to take ten before she recoups the difference in price I think I will pass and maybe look at getting her a diesel car.

[Warriorbird]

Where is the justice? The logic?

You can't seriously ask that with the current government in power. The tax break for bloated vehicles/small businesses is insane when compared to the hybrid one.

[Artha]

Every gallon of gas you use is a gallon denied to the ChiComms. The tax break is just for those small business owners doing their duty as Americans.

[Drew]

I haven't checked prices on hybrids, are you sure the price difference would take 10 years to make or did you just pull that number out of thin air. I was thinking of picking a hybrid for my mother's next car but I haven't done the research. If it is going to take ten before she recoups the difference in price I think I will pass and maybe look at getting her a diesel car.



Car & Driver did a comparison on this with the civic hybrid. The regular 4 cylinder civic is very fuel efficent so the hybrid saves you very little fuel over it, but it costs something like 3000 dollars more. Also when they did the comparison gas was priced higher than it is now, so the figure might be even longer.

[deck]

I'm pretty sure that if you compare Vehicle prices of Hybrid cars (overpriced), to the price of normal cars with decent gas milage, you'll find that the ammount of gas you save in a hybrid will not make up the difference in how much more you're spending on the hybrid car.

I'm unsure where the article was, but I believe it stated you'd have to drive the hybrid for 10 years to make up the difference in cost.

the only reason to get a hybrid, is if you really want to not use gas, or maybe the convinence of not having to go to the gas station that often.

[Tsa`ah]

By-pass conventional fuel sources and the band-aid attempt.

By a nice diesel and convert to bio-diesel.

[Wezas]

the only reason to get a hybrid, is if you really want to not use gas, or maybe the convinence of not having to go to the gas station that often.

People in the DC area buy them just to use the HOV lanes during rushhour, saving them up to 90 minutes each day. Though there's talk of eliminating hybrids from the list of allowed HOV vehicles.

[xtc]

By-pass conventional fuel sources and the band-aid attempt.

By a nice diesel and convert to bio-diesel.

Who makes a nice diesel? I know VW makes them but you couldn't pay me to drive another VW product.

[Warriorbird]

Mercedes. Land Rover. Porsche too, I believe.

[Latrinsorm]

Ford. F250 had a diesel option at least a couple years ago, and I can't think of any reason they'd have phased it out.

[Tsa`ah]

BMW and Chrysler as well.

I'd have to say that BMW and Mercedes top the lists, though I don't know of too many people with cash to throw away voiding the warranty on a new beemer or benz.

With 2 metros out of the way, a Cuda stripped and blasted, and an AWL super charged Chrysler T&C nearing completion ... I'm looking for an older diesel Cherokee to tinker with before I sink serious money into a new conversion.

I did help a friend convert a Liberty to bio about a month and a half ago. So far he has no complaints. 25 bucks over 6 weeks and his only inconvenience is keeping a 5 gallon can of bio in the back.

It's becoming more wide spread in Illinois since many counties are using it for mass transit, school districts, and municipal vehicles. I think the local figures for the county put us at spending 10% this quarter in comparison to the same time last year.

I think hybrids are a mis-step. Heavy batteries, still using petroleum, exorbitant repair costs. Bio is a drastic reduction in emissions and fuel cost, and if a tanker of vegetable oil spills ... well the environmental hazard is almost non-existent.


Ford. F250 had a diesel option at least a couple years ago, and I can't think of any reason they'd have phased it out.

Every domestic truck producer has the diesel option. Dodge/Chrysler being the best in my opinion ... but diesel trucks aren't designed for commuting and passenger transport. These diesels are big and built for power, not much good for the urban family. Hell, not much good for me and I live in the country.

Chrysler, Mercedes, BMW, VW ... and a few others offer diesel packages for passenger vehicles, and that's a bio niche that is just being scratched.

[Drew]

Mercedes. Land Rover. Porsche too, I believe.



Actually rather famously (to race fans) Porsche won't move up to the top class of Le Mans prototype racing because the rules favour diesel engines and Porsche DOES NOT do diesel engines.

[Warriorbird]

Interesting. The one I remember must have been a conversion.

[Tsa`ah]

Actually rather famously (to race fans) Porsche won't move up to the top class of Le Mans prototype racing because the rules favour diesel engines and Porsche DOES NOT do diesel engines.

Well, not anymore ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Porsche-diesel_super.jpg

... give them time to jump on board.

Audi also makes a good diesel passenger.

[Back]

I've read that the hybrids are just the transition to fuel cell technology.

Found this site, HybridCars.com (http://www.hybridcars.com/), which is a great resource you may be able to use, Gan.

So with you actively seeking to own a Hybrid mean that the days of having one gets you labeled as a hippy tree-hugging Hollywood left wing liberal wacko are gone?

[Buckwheet]

I just wanted to chime in about the Lexus vehicles.

I bought a RX330 just before the hybrid came out, and it gets me 19-20mpg in MN which I don't think is too bad.

My father in law just bought 2 brand new lexus cars, and they get great mileage as well. They are the IS and the GS versions, the GS is for the mother in law and the IS is his.

He is upgrading from a previous GS.

I can say that while the costs are much more expensive, the quality of service I get there is quite simply retarded.

I call my "service manager" who claims to know me by name, and I get post cards for major holidays in the mail from them, and for reminding me that my service is coming up.

I bought a warranty extension through my credit union because I plan to drive this vehicle for 100,000 plus miles, and they flat out told me it was a waste of money. However I still felt I wanted to be safe, because my plan through my credit union also covers my loan if the car is totaled and the value of the car is less then what I owe.

Anyway, when I take the car in for service I pull up to a wood burning firepit and someone comes out from the service bay and then drives my car into the service bay, while I make my way inside to see the service manager.

I get taken into his office where I sit in a very large plush leather chair, while he asks if I want something to drink. He brings me cofee, however I want it. While we then discuss what I am having done to the car.

The best part is, that I don't care what is being done because of the service plan I bought through my credit union. He goes over this with me anyway, tells me its something ridiculous like $800, I nod, and give him my paperwork and its done, I write out a check for the material costs and he says I can wait and read the paper or watch TV in their lounge if I want.

He then hands me the key to my lexus loaner. Which is another RX330 because, you know they wouldn't want you to loose functionality while you are driving to work...

I get my car back that evening, its been vaccumed, dusted, and washed with plastic bags over all the seats and the car inside smells like its brand new again.

I get 3 phone calls in the next week, one from the service manager, one from my sales guy, and one from the general manager, all making sure I was happy with my level of service.

Anyway, the reason I say all this is because, if you decide to go the 400h line, I am very very happy with the service I get, my father in law gets the exact same service with both his cars, I don't think you will be dissapointed in the level of care the dealership gives to your car.

Just be prepared to pay for it.

[Warriorbird]

Lexus has indeed scored some of the best service coups ever. I really like the example they give about early Lexus in Malcolm Gladwell's The Tipping Point.

[xtc]

I just wanted to chime in about the Lexus vehicles.

I bought a RX330 just before the hybrid came out, and it gets me 19-20mpg in MN which I don't think is too bad.

My father in law just bought 2 brand new lexus cars, and they get great mileage as well. They are the IS and the GS versions, the GS is for the mother in law and the IS is his.

He is upgrading from a previous GS.

I can say that while the costs are much more expensive, the quality of service I get there is quite simply retarded.

I call my "service manager" who claims to know me by name, and I get post cards for major holidays in the mail from them, and for reminding me that my service is coming up.

I bought a warranty extension through my credit union because I plan to drive this vehicle for 100,000 plus miles, and they flat out told me it was a waste of money. However I still felt I wanted to be safe, because my plan through my credit union also covers my loan if the car is totaled and the value of the car is less then what I owe.

Anyway, when I take the car in for service I pull up to a wood burning firepit and someone comes out from the service bay and then drives my car into the service bay, while I make my way inside to see the service manager.

I get taken into his office where I sit in a very large plush leather chair, while he asks if I want something to drink. He brings me cofee, however I want it. While we then discuss what I am having done to the car.

The best part is, that I don't care what is being done because of the service plan I bought through my credit union. He goes over this with me anyway, tells me its something ridiculous like $800, I nod, and give him my paperwork and its done, I write out a check for the material costs and he says I can wait and read the paper or watch TV in their lounge if I want.

He then hands me the key to my lexus loaner. Which is another RX330 because, you know they wouldn't want you to loose functionality while you are driving to work...

I get my car back that evening, its been vaccumed, dusted, and washed with plastic bags over all the seats and the car inside smells like its brand new again.

I get 3 phone calls in the next week, one from the service manager, one from my sales guy, and one from the general manager, all making sure I was happy with my level of service.

Anyway, the reason I say all this is because, if you decide to go the 400h line, I am very very happy with the service I get, my father in law gets the exact same service with both his cars, I don't think you will be dissapointed in the level of care the dealership gives to your car.

Just be prepared to pay for it.

That is some impressive service I must admit. Personally I am cheap so I go to an independent mechanic, service may not be as good but I pay $40 less per hour and I am charged actual time not book time. As my Scottish friend Benny says (imagine the accent) Money's for counting not for spending.

[Gan]

I've read that the hybrids are just the transition to fuel cell technology.

Found this site, HybridCars.com (http://www.hybridcars.com/), which is a great resource you may be able to use, Gan.

So with you actively seeking to own a Hybrid mean that the days of having one gets you labeled as a hippy tree-hugging Hollywood left wing liberal wacko are gone?

Well, there's so much more that goes into that definition than just hugging trees. I'm sure birkenstocks, lots of denim, and and bongos fit in there somewhere too.

Told you I was not a cookie cutter conservative.

[Back]

Well, there's so much more that goes into that definition than just hugging trees. I'm sure birkenstocks, lots of denim, and and bongos fit in there somewhere too.

Told you I was not a cookie cutter conservative.

Bongos are for Beatniks. ;) I'm hip.

[Back]

Its interesting to me, and relieving, to see this paradigm finally shift. It still pisses me off that people who are now coming around to reality gave me shit about my views in the past, but still, its for the best.

[chocolateburger]

I've driven a hybrid civic now for about two and a half years. I bought before the craze started to hit and got a decent deal on it in the first place. $19,500. Couple that with the tax breaks that were available at the time as well as the fact that i do get insane mileage, and i'm a happy camper.

It was originally billed at 50 MPG. I never saw that myself, and was only seeing 45MPG. After exactly 50k miles (the service is this weekend) I'm now only getting about 41 - 42 MPG...still not bad.

Four and a half years remain until my warranty is no longer, and i'll think about a new car at that point, but yeah, I'll likely go bio-diesel in the next car i buy.

DaveP

[Sean of the Thread]

Its interesting to me, and relieving, to see this paradigm finally shift. It still pisses me off that people who are now coming around to reality gave me shit about my views in the past, but still, its for the best.


That's funny because first of all nobody agrees with you till this day on any issues and you still get shit for your views in the present.

Seriously I've already stock piled 48,000 bicycle tires and tubes in preparation for the post apocalyptic near future.. do you have any idea how hard it will be to obtain rubber for our only transportation??