Gemstone is Dead.

[Trinitis]

Well, I was poking around in GS4 beta, and a thought hit me. So I reported and asked a question..will the Skill Goals be a perm thing in GS4. The answer, yes.

I'm betting a lot of players of GS will love this..I find this greatly disappointing. This change will totally KILL any RP in GS. People will be able to change any skills, at will. Yes, there is a time frame in the changes, but who cares? Don't like someone, they being a jerk? Force your skills into all the combat related stuff, push your AS/CS through the roof, go murder them, then go into hideing, change all your skills to max DS/TD..and your done.

This factor will be SO over abused, its going to kill the game.

-Adredrin

[IcyPoison]

Or nobody could care about PVP/CVC and it wouldn't be an issue?

[Trinitis]

Or everyone can be everything in their said class all at once, hey! thats fun! Lets have a mage that can be an expert with fire..wait..thats boring now, lets be an Ice mage..oooo Wait, I like lightning better now!

::rolls eyes::

-Adredrin

[IcyPoison]

One of my biggest challenges when it comes to GS is figuring out what path I want to take... I'd assume I'm not the only one. I like the fact that I can see the differences between the paths and change at will rather then spend months and months remaking yourself.

[Trinitis]

Right, so insted of sticking with an RP, you like the idea of being able to change it at will. Yah, this is a great thing. Psh.

So its ok for a warrior to be a master of blunts for 40 trainings, then suddenly deside he likes claidhmores better? What type of RP crap is that?

Oh, wait, this sorcerer is a Necromancer, great with the undead..but now, he likes demons better.

Gimmie a break.

-Adredrin

[StrayRogue]

Yep, it will be like "Hmmm, I can't hunt past these bastards with an edged, guess I'll switch to ranged, or bypass it with picking, etc".

[Trinitis]

Its painfully sad, and I, for one am very upset about it.

-Adredrin

[StrayRogue]

One more nail in the coffin, and you know what, the GMs say they care, but they don't care enough to listen.

[HarmNone]

Gah! You have got to be kidding! This does not make any sense at all. I am not one for demanding overdoses of realism in a fantasy game, but this is taking things way too far, in my opinion. There have to be some things that remain sacred.

HarmNone is shocked

*Edited because I am so shocked I cannot spell it.*

[Edited on 10-16-2003 by HarmNone]

[Zanagodly]

Good points Adredrin. I never thought about the possible abuse capabilites of this ability. Personally all I will do is overtrain to get into heavy armor quick, and as I attain age where I can be in that armor group just doubling, then I'll readjust my skills. I don't plan on switching up weapon types and crap though, thats weak.

[Chadj]

Well, i wont be abusing the skills.... But i cant say that for everyone

[Carl Spackler]

I like it for awhile, its something that could be left in for a month or so as people got situated, then they should give a warning and then take it off.

[Trinitis]

Nope, I talked to a GM via reports about it. Its a perm thing. The GM did say they will increase the time quite a bit once GS4 goes live, but even then..how hard is it to set the skills how you want, grab a table, and leave yourself AFK while you sleep?

-Adredrin

[Scott]

Gemstone has never been about RP. If you want strict RP, pick a different game. This isn't meant to be a rude comment, but seriously. If people want to have fun by switching it up, why should it matter to you? Is it really that much of a problem if so and so swings a claid one day and then a edge the other. If some guy attacks you with all the AS boosters and then switches to DS/TD boosters when he's done, is that really a problem you can't overcome? It not hard to kill someone in GS4 or even GS3 for that matter. Worry about yourself and not what others are doing. If you think it'll screw up RP, then don't switch it up.......

[DCSL]

I uh... don't get the skill goal thing so I won't be using it at all, let alone abusing. I'm not mechanically or min/max inclined. I'll be lucky if I understand half the formulas being slung around that apply to my character. My character will suck.

[Rowi]

To change skills i mean like alotta ranks from 100 to 0 then another skill from 0 to 100 would take like 8 hours to change them.

So? hunt get your boxes then change skills to pick them 8 hours later? that dont make no sense.



Dont see much abuse with it unless people dont wanna train at all and have a spare 16 hours a day to change over and back again.:?:

[Edited on 10-16-2003 by Rowi]

[Khaitiff]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Gemstone has never been about RP. If you want strict RP, pick a different game.

Ok I feel in a quirky mood.... that quote sounds like something Chica would say when she dons the mentor title and says.... "Hey little one let me show ya something."

[Back]

I agree with Gemstone101 here... GS is not the strongest RP game there is. You have to understand and accept that to be able to play. Sure, you can find the hardcore RPers, and those are the people you should stick with. Some people play GS like Doom. Its a given.

Personally, I like the ability to try different things mechanics wise. I'll always RP regardless. And when I do try different things, they will still fit my basic char format.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by DCSL
I uh... don't get the skill goal thing so I won't be using it at all, let alone abusing. I'm not mechanically or min/max inclined. I'll be lucky if I understand half the formulas being slung around that apply to my character. My character will suck.

No, your character will not suck, dammit!

I played a number of characters over the years, and all except a couple were quick-gens. Those who were not quick-gens were created for specific purposes and did not last beyond that purpose.

Why? Because I do not figure one can plot and plan ahead of time what strengths and weaknesses one will have. We humans are not perfect; nor are elves, hobbitzes, or giantmen, for that matter. ;) I found it more enjoyable to work with what I got through the luck of the mangler.

If some wanted to min/max that was fine with me. They did not interfere with what I was trying to do for my enjoyment. This will be the same, I am sure. It is just hard to figure out what the PTB are thinking, as it seems like almost a complete about-face from what once was GemStone.

HarmNone who nearly fainted when she heard there would be another reallocation:P

[Myrianna]

I think they should just leave GS3 alone, and let us all stay in our own little world we're happy with, and then just have the option of going to GS4 for the people that are sick of our own little world. *sigh*

[Edaarin]

I'm fairly sure that once that initial month of testing is over, the skill migrator will change to something like 3 hours per rank, so that it'd take weeks to completely unlearn/pick up a new skill. Time frame will probably be adjusted if there's any sweeping changes for professions (ie, change to redux formula or abolishing lores for picking)

[Back]

Now here is a question. Will they reset again before they go live with GSIV?

[Straight-up]

I find this more realistic actually. In my RL I am constantly learning new skills....totally new things. Someone complained about a situation where someone changes their hunting strategy from one weapon to another... I have often done this in RL. Not really with weapon skills..:) But let's say I worked with computers for a few years and got very good at it...then I moved on to a new job where it required no computer skills but I had to learn how to be a mechanic. This is quite plausible and happens in RL. It is also normal for you to get out of practice in what you knew before...

I dunno I personally don't see what all the complaining about this is over...other than just wanting to complain...


Straight

[CrystalTears]

Honestly I don't see what the problem is either. There is a time period that you have to wait while it slowly reaches to its goal. I'm sure it will increase greatly once it goes live. To have to wait around for it to get to where you want it won't be an easy wait, I'm sure.

And if people want to move things around, so what? It would let them enjoy their character more because they could customize it at will. Makes them more of a believable character if they're able to change their skills once in a while. How this affects anyone else I have no clue since it will be available for everyone. If it were only for a select few professions or races I can understand the uproar. But when everyone is able to do it, but you just won't just to complain? Doesn't compute.

[Zanagodly]

It does affect other characters, because if I walk up to someone who is known as a locksmith, and they tell me they currently have no knowledge of locksmithing because their emphasis is now on combat due to the hunting challenges of higher levels, that will leave my character scratching his head.

[StrayRogue]

Enforced role playing was forced out of this game along long time ago. Now its just a company. However, GS is taking a huge risk which I bet will not pay off in GS4. Now, as teen, what would you rather play? Everquest et al, something you can see, is easy to pick up or GS4, where the hunting is boring and the quality of RP is only a teeny bit better? Hrmmm. Galaxies anyone?

[Xcalibur]

ffonline goes live almost the same day gs4 will.

I wish simu will make an apologize email for all that quit and tell them to come back since gemstone 4 is erased, gemstone3 is restored and those responsible are fired.

But when I think of it, i'm sure gs4 will be liked, a lot of people will just adjust, even if the basis is really crap.

[StrayRogue]

GS4 will be the easiest on the newbies who never played GS3. Its the olds who will find it hardest to adjust.

BUT, I don't expect much from FFonline. Simply another Everquest, plus how can a self contained story be split among a player base of thousands? It can't be done. The only reason they are calling it FF is so that it sells more.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Right, so insted of sticking with an RP, you like the idea of being able to change it at will. Yah, this is a great thing. Psh.

So its ok for a warrior to be a master of blunts for 40 trainings, then suddenly deside he likes claidhmores better? What type of RP crap is that?

Oh, wait, this sorcerer is a Necromancer, great with the undead..but now, he likes demons better.

Gimmie a break.

-Adredrin

Let me see if I can think of a comparison...

For 10 years I've been an IT person, then I think I want to try be a teacher because the economy sucks and I was laid off. So I teach for a year or two.

Wait, I think I wanna be a computer programmer and web site designer!

If I'm not forced to keep the same track for my profession in real life, why should I do so here? And why can't I roleplay that something in my life created this shift in my goals?

I see potential, not eradication.

[CrystalTears]

Actually I doubt people will be making radical changes at whim as much as people think. Going from a competent locksmith to not at all doesn't seem like something people will do often, especially when they will be reallocating anyway. That's already going to throw people off as it is.

I think it will more a matter of trading skills here and there rather than going from one skill completely to another, especially since the training points won't coincide with a former locksmith now wanting to be a better hunter. If he was doubling, he's not getting that much back that will make such a difference to his hunting. ::shrugs::

[Edited on 10/16/2003 by CrystalTears]

[Xcalibur]

people will abuse, people will abuse and people will abuse that

Simu will look dumb again, and they'll change it, without any "excuses" for those that said it was a bad idea.

I see the biggest abuse as this
MA.

I play my char, with his training, i lend it to someone that change it to help MAing, and after he's done, back as his training, et cetera. Now seems bard will be a master of abusing that option (1.5X in spells, with some defense, back to normal, repeat)

[CrystalTears]

I don't get how you can abuse something that everyone can do. That doesn't make any sense.

You do realize that there is a waiting period from one rank to another, and could be considerable taking into account how many ranks.

[Snapp]

I don't see this being a huge deal. Mainly because, it takes so long to do something drastic.. like change from fully 2x Blunt weapons into fully 2x 2-handers.. that'd be hours of waiting (depending on age). It just gives people a chance to test how different their characters can be.

[Trinitis]

Oh yah, hours of waiting. Set up the change, go into rest mode, go to sleep. Wake up in the morning a brand new man!

-Adredrin

[Snapp]

Well your original example was that someone was going to push their AS/CS to the max, kill someone, then push DS/TD through the roof and be safe.. Well this would take a ton of time, and really not worth it just to kill someone.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Oh yah, hours of waiting. Set up the change, go into rest mode, go to sleep. Wake up in the morning a brand new man!

-Adredrin

I so totally doubt that's how it will work, and even if it did, I'm betting they restrict just how many times you can do it over a character's lifetime.

Let's not freak out over an assumption that hasn't any merit yet. Truly, if you can only pick your age, your birthday, and align with a deity once, why would they suddenly give up having such tight controls and leave something like skills open to abuse? Given Simu's history, that just doesn't make sense.

[IcyPoison]

Originally posted by Caramia

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Right, so insted of sticking with an RP, you like the idea of being able to change it at will. Yah, this is a great thing. Psh.

So its ok for a warrior to be a master of blunts for 40 trainings, then suddenly deside he likes claidhmores better? What type of RP crap is that?

Oh, wait, this sorcerer is a Necromancer, great with the undead..but now, he likes demons better.

Gimmie a break.

-Adredrin

Let me see if I can think of a comparison...

For 10 years I've been an IT person, then I think I want to try be a teacher because the economy sucks and I was laid off. So I teach for a year or two.

Wait, I think I wanna be a computer programmer and web site designer!

If I'm not forced to keep the same track for my profession in real life, why should I do so here? And why can't I roleplay that something in my life created this shift in my goals?

I see potential, not eradication.

Gemstone 3/4 is not real life. It is a fantasy game, I don't understand how you can begin to compare them?

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Snapp
Well your original example was that someone was going to push their AS/CS to the max, kill someone, then push DS/TD through the roof and be safe.. Well this would take a ton of time, and really not worth it just to kill someone.

it is worth it just to kill someone.

[IcyPoison]

Death is actually bad in GS4 too..

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by IcyPoison
Gemstone 3/4 is not real life. It is a fantasy game, I don't understand how you can begin to compare them?

Right, so if in the real world you can change your profession whenever you want, why can't you do the same in a fantasy setting with even more ease by using magic to enhance your training?

[Pallon]

This was discussed at length on the official boards a few months ago. The purpose is so the mechanics of existing skills can be changed, or new skills released, without having to reopen reallocation. They just crank up the migration rate for the affected skills, and everyone either cashes in what ranks they have or gets more for a short period.

This is a good thing. It means you can't be dicked over by skill mechanics changes that only psychics could see coming. It also means that people won't whine for reallocation every time something changes.

Under normal game conditions, the migration rate for skills will be non-trivial. I seriously doubt a mid to high level warrior will be able to switch his weapon specialty, or convert his combat skills to picking, or a wizard completely redistribute his lore ranks, inside an afternoon, or even inside a month.

[Warriorbird]

The skill migrator is slow as hell now. Imagine when it is 10x slower. Not that much of a problem.

[AnticorRifling]

I still don't see how you can lose the knowledge of a skill like that. Hey look I'm a master locksmith! *scooter accident!* I don't remember how to pick!

That's the only way it could work heh.

[Trinitis]

That was pretty much my point anticor...

If I have a mage that spends YEARS mastering fire...then, in a single day *forgets* everything about fire and becomes a master of ice? Eh..

-Adredrin

[Trinitis]

you know, after some time spent thinking about this, I think I've narrowed down what bothers me.

The lack of challenge.

In GS3, you did not design your char for fighting one style of combat, you tried to make that char the best it could be, for any type of trouble.

Now, all you gotta do is specialize, and change as needed. Even if the change takes 5 days, who cares?

Rogue:

level 1-20. Max out on fighting skills. Make leveling easier, and raise your DS enough to master sweep with little problem

level 20-40. Switch a bit, dropping your extra "fighting" skills (ie2x shield, and such things) down to 1x, and add in some picking, that way you can pick your own boxes, thus adding to your exp gained, and adding to your leveling.

40-60 : Drop those extra armor ranks, and add more picking skill as the boxes get harder. Remove some of the other extra skills you gained to help your growth, and get some PP for added fun.

60-100 : Drop anything you don't need, specalize in what you want to specalize. At 100, just pick your new exp, less chance of death.

or another look.

Warrior :

1-20. Max Skills for best possible AS/DS. Use edged/shield. Hunt like mad.

20-40. Drop the extra armor trainings down as you get older(IE, I 3x'ed to get to hauberk, now as I start working up to actually wear haruberk at the age, drop the extra trainings), tacking on other skills insted. Focus on expanding yourself when you can.

40-60. Now being old enough to have a greater ammount of redux, Drop your shiled/edge training, and pick up the two handers. you can now withstand the hits, and live, while crushing the monsters in 1 or 2 hits.

60-100. Figure out ways to add to your redux, making you a tank. drop skills not needed (your hunting a place that don't need climbing? Push those points into PT till you move to a new area!) and drive that redux to the sky. Your now level 100, try not to be another Drizz.

It makes things way to simple. You need not think about what your doing at the low levels, you will ALWAYS train for what you need at that time. You will switch your skills as needed, and always be a master of said hunting area. It removes the challenge. :(

-Adredrin

[Xcalibur]

It shall be the begining of the end.

R.I.P. Gemstone I-I-I-IV
1987-2004

[StrayRogue]

The above won't work for Rogue. You need to be about 2x to get your own boxes until about 50, then 3x is needed.

[Rsen]

I think that there should be a choise to be in GS3 or move to GS4
I am comfy in GS3

[Artha]

It will take months to change your training plan drastically. This has been stated by numerous GMs.

[StrayRogue]

Still totally OOC, especially when they are implementing loads of crappy Realistic additions on the premise they are trying to achieve a realistic approximation of things.

[Drew2]

Location The Emerald Zone
Member Is Online

Mood: One more ring til bonus stage


ROFL i just noticed that.

GO SONIC.

[StrayRogue]

STFU Tails you fool.

[Drew2]

WTF EVER.

Tails is weak. He could only fly for like 3 seconds before he was a tired, panting, pansy.

SUPER SONIC!!!

P.s. - Sonic Adventure for Dreamcast was pretty cool. I liked being gold and the music was cool.

[Artha]

Still totally OOC, especially when they are implementing loads of crappy Realistic additions on the premise they are trying to achieve a realistic approximation of things.

That was at the first post. Also, how is it OOC? People and can learn and forget things.

The current 2 minute time is just because they're making sure times work, it's going to take hours or even days to lose a rank in GS4. This will, effectively, eliminate 'I'm going to go change my training plan and kill you' before it starts.

[Drew2]

Artha, don't piss me off, or I'm going to change my training plan and kill you 3 months later.


Haha I started it.

[Artha]

I'll just avoid you by staying out of TC.

[StrayRogue]

Artha, are you payed to suck GM ass, or are you just sleeping with Witcheaven? I learn how to say read a scroll, and I am talking read it really well. Talking a 100 ranks. Now say it takes 6 months to lose them. I can no longer read. BULLSHIT. Its like riding a bike. You never forget. Its a natural talent. You do not forget natural talents.

[Artha]

Artha, are you payed to suck GM ass, or are you just sleeping with Witcheaven?

*sigh* you found me out. All of my items are really 10x DB items that have 15 unique scripts, and i have 999 million in my bank account.


You do not forget natural talents.

Dude, people forget how to walk. 100 ranks could probably take you well over 6 months, too.

[StrayRogue]

You are an idiot Artha.

[StrayRogue]

I definately think you are God-Backer category number 2, from WarriorBirds website. Totally.

[Artha]

You are an idiot Artha.

Translation: You win this one, you rapscalion!


I definately think you are God-Backer category number 2, from WarriorBirds website. Totally.

WarriorBird has a website?

[StrayRogue]

Well his friends do. A highly amusing one about the nerfing of MUDs.

[Trinitis]

no mater how long it takes, people are going to abuse this. There is no "if". It will be abused, and it will scar the game.

Also, In GS4, that does not hold up stray. They said EVERTHING will be taking as being 1x'ed. So, if you 1x picking, you will be able to pick what ever you hunt for life. I can't name the post, but I do remember reading that.

This skills goals thing will cause a problem in GS4. Think about this, what will it do for the selling field? Ebay is going to go rampent. A person can power hunt a chart to level 50 or 60..then sell for lots of $$ on ebay, then you can chance the skills to suit how you want it. Its going to make the market explode.

-Adredrin

[StrayRogue]

It is more than 1x, I assure you. Otherwise, I'd be able to pick the highest difficulty box at lvl 40, if I tripled. Not to mention, how with the high level triplers ever find boxes to get LM reps on?

[Artha]

The baseline for SOME skills is 1x. Sorcerous lores come to mind. I hear mana is workable when 1xing control. For rogues, shields have a 1x baseline.

However, everything does not, or skill costs would raise dramatically.

[CrystalTears]

Funny, I kept hearing that most skills were 2x for it to be effective.

[Artha]

Some, like weapons, probably. However, baseline for many of the lores (as well as a few other skills) is 1x

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
people will abuse, people will abuse and people will abuse that

Simu will look dumb again, and they'll change it, without any "excuses" for those that said it was a bad idea.

I see the biggest abuse as this
MA.

I play my char, with his training, i lend it to someone that change it to help MAing, and after he's done, back as his training, et cetera. Now seems bard will be a master of abusing that option (1.5X in spells, with some defense, back to normal, repeat)

Heh, You can have fits about MA all you like hon, but the fact of it is, SIMU reinforces MAing by making it 1. available. 2. nearly necessary. People can debate me on this all you like, but the fact remains that the game is oh so much easier while you can MA. You don't decay. You don't have to beg for spells etc.

Also, other muds possess the ability to see IP addresses and will ask their players if IPs double. Simu never does this. Simu will even transfer your characters to a new account for you (for a fee of course). So my point is you do realize they will *never* do anything to inhibit multi accounting?

Currently, my ambushing warrior (last i checked) could hunt solo spelless in Wyneb at 91 trains, but I doubt that will hold after GSIV. Unfortunately, I enjoyed being self sufficent as did so many others. Now, I quit GS, don't play anymore, but it's natural that people who still do play will seek out things to make levelling easier -- especially when it's going to take how many hours to completely level again?

I think this might be why SIMU staff says... "Damn we drove off the RP'ers... we should probably make things good for the people who like hunting." I'm at a loss as to why they're deliberately hurting themselves since so many have shown disfavor, but whatever. It is simu, not our place to question them of course.


As for skill trading, it's true you never forget skills or spells, but I do see the huge potential for abuse. Staff will eventually too, and then it will be changed with no word and those who are trading up will be stuck with the latest thing that they chose. That's my prediction. You can view it as a punishment or poetic justice.

-Melissa

[Edited on Sat, October th, 2003 by ElanthianSiren]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
I think this might be why SIMU staff says... "Damn we drove off the RP'ers... we should probably make things good for the people who like hunting." I'm at a loss as to why they're deliberately hurting themselves since so many have shown disfavor, but whatever.

-Melissa

In my opinion, you hit the nail squarely on the head, Melissa. That is exactly what I feel is being done. The game has gone to the hunters, the levelers, the MAers, and the griefers.

There will still be pockets of RP, because there are those RPers who will stay because they do not want to start over somewhere else. But, for the most part, it will be a hunter's game. :)

HarmNone never cared that much for the hunting part

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by HarmNone

In my opinion, you hit the nail squarely on the head, Melissa. That is exactly what I feel is being done. The game has gone to the hunters, the levelers, the MAers, and the griefers.

There will still be pockets of RP, because there are those RPers who will stay because they do not want to start over somewhere else. But, for the most part, it will be a hunter's game. :)

HarmNone never cared that much for the hunting part

Can you play GSIV? If you could you would realize hunting sucks.

[HarmNone]

I have not been back to GS, in any form, since I left several years ago. If they have screwed hunting, too, what is left? Just griefers? ;)

HarmNone hopes not

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by HarmNone
If they have screwed hunting, too, what is left?


I am unable to answer that right now

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Artha

You are an idiot Artha.

Translation: You win this one, you rapscalion!



Ok.. that was a good one. Admit it StrayRogue!



[Edited on 10-18-2003 by Parkbandit]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by theotherjohn

Originally posted by HarmNone
If they have screwed hunting, too, what is left?


I am unable to answer that right now

Heh. Well, when you can answer it, I will be interested to get your take on what is left. :D

HarmNone wonders what is to be

[Artha]

There's always RP. I agree, hunting's pretty bad atm.

Hopefully, if enough people complain, they'll change it.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Artha
There's always RP. I agree, hunting's pretty bad atm.

Hopefully, if enough people complain, they'll change it.

Change it? Koar's goat, man! They keep backing off the date to go live. Then, they are going to have to change it?

Just thinking about this makes my sphincter quiver!

HarmNone is quivering as we speak :D

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by theotherjohn
Can you play GSIV? If you could you would realize hunting sucks.

Actually... I'm looking forward to GS4 and the hunting. I think the CM skills alone will make for some great times.

To each their own though... if Gemstone's not for you, I do hope you find happiness elsewhere.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Actually... I'm looking forward to GS4 and the hunting. I think the CM skills alone will make for some great times.



If CM skills are released, my warrior will have 134 CM ranks so I agree it will be fun for a while.

[Artha]

Just thinking about this makes my sphincter quiver!

TMI, Harmy.

T-M-I.