HJ revisited

[Apotheosis]

So umm, any news on this project?

Has anyone read the interviews or been following the progress of this at all?

[Viridian]

No, because it's never gonna happen.

[Czeska]

Last I heard was end of '06 I believe, from a GM working on the project.

This translates directly into "Well it's not dead yet".

[HarmNone]

This is Simu, people! The answer is either 49, or RSN. :yes:

[Czeska]

42, HarmNone.. the answer is 42.

[fallenSaint]

Its a really nifty idea, I suppose that’s where it will stay as well.

[Apotheosis]

Thing is, I've been playing wow, and find it incredibly fun, even though it's relatively simple.

HJ looks like a cool idea, but....

[Edited on 1-3-0606 by Apotheosis]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Czeska
42, HarmNone.. the answer is 42.

Oh, damn! That's why nothing ever works right! I'd have sworn it was 49!:D

[Augie]

It's in QC

[Makkah]

I've been keeping up with it... no real info since like November other than "We're working on it with a fuck-ton of GMs writing quests, etc."

[Kembal]

Isn't Hepsik a HJ GM? He mentioned that he was building gardens in HJ while waiting for stuff on the Promise in the IRC chat.

[Edited on 1-3-2006 by Kembal]

[Augie]

Originally posted by Kembal
Isn't Hepsik a HJ GM? He was mentioned that he was building gardens in HJ while waiting for stuff on the Promise in the IRC chat.

Yes he is and he loves to brag about it.

[The Ponzzz]

The problem with HJ is it's a step above FFXI in graphics but not as smooth as WoW. Atleast from the screenshots and clips I have seen.

This game won't go far... It's nice, and it's a great idea, but it needs to launch before the PS3. Even with the Xbox360 out, the graphics and engine are out of date... But once the console wars begin, it would be like going to BestBuy and buying DAoC. Sure the game is fun, but it's no where near new generation games...

My biggest fear is it will be the end of GS and DR. They really need to market GS a bit more... Throw a link on Pogo.com or Yahoo games... Yea there will be an assload of fucktards, but some good people will go through and bring back cash...

[Skeeter]

I hope they continue to pour tons of money into this doomed project.

[Numbers]

It's really sad that they're pumping so much money into this game. Or, well, so much money in reference to Simutronics. I'm sure all their GM's are still getting paid slave wages.

I watched a video of the game in action at E3 (I think Simu was in the "discount booth area for companies you've never heard of) and, to be honest, it looked pretty impressive.

But, the fact is, there's absolutely no hype behind it. At all. Right now, MMO players are waiting for the next big thing after WoW. For a while they thought it'd be Dungeons and Dragons, and that turned out to be a steaming pile. Now it's Vanguard, and a bunch of other MMO's. Hero's Journey is never, ever mentioned.

Then there's also the problem that the graphics from Hero's Journey, which is pretty much its strongest selling point at this time, are rapidly becoming obsolete. If this game's not coming out until the end of 2006, the graphics will end up being at least a generation or two behind.

I could go on, but I don't know enough about the gameplay to make any judgement on whether or not the game is actually fun or boring, and Simu isn't exactly forthcoming about anything, which is their biggest problem. From what I can gather, it'll be largely quest based... but once you work your way through all of the quests, what then?

In any case, for this game to be a success, they really need to ramp up the publicity engine. They can't just publish it (have they even found a publisher) and say, "Look at the pretty graphics! Buy me!" and expect to be a serious contendor. Especially since they'll be using the typical MMO business model. They'll start losing money at a phenominal rate.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by 3704558

In any case, for this game to be a success, they really need to ramp up the publicity engine.

Exactly. I don't know who exactly they're expecting to buy it. Existing customers? I'm sure a few will play, but given that at some point they've managed to piss off almost every single customer they still have, I doubt any would go for a graphical game from them when they have so many other options - WoW, DAoC, EQ, FF, etc.

[The Ponzzz]

Well MMOs go by word of mouth generally... But yea. EGM, GamePro, etc all have spreads on them... Shit I played FFXI because of the commercials on TV... The game is/was very fun, just got boring for me...

But the major complaint with FFXI from other people was the fact that the graphics blew on the PS2 version. And due to the PS2 version, they were limited on how alterable your character could look due to some engine problems...

Now HJ to me, looks JUST like FFXI on PS2... Compare HJ to WoW, graphic wise and WoW wins... Oblivion, though single player, looks amazing... And that's the step ALL MMOs are gonna take... HJ would never stand a chance...

[Makkah]

<<Now HJ to me, looks JUST like FFXI on PS2... Compare HJ to WoW, graphic wise and WoW wins...>>

You make me laugh...

[The Ponzzz]

Cool, I do stand up too

[Necromancer]

Hero's Journey will garner a lot of attention once it has been released. The game has staying power I believe. It's heavily weighted towards character customization, which is what has kept us all addicted to SIMU games like drug addicts. As someone mentioned, word of mouth is what gets things going. The interviews and reviews will start, and the game will keep up.

However, the grahpics issue is a key one. They can't delay this one like they delay everything else, as people have already gone over. But I will say, the graphics are MUCH better than World of Warcraft. WOW looks like a big cartoon. There are some truly amazing areas of the game (Thousand Needles anyone?), but ultimately it fails to give you any sense of realism, and it looks like a parody of real life. HJ graphics are MUCH more realistic, and that means more immersion into the game. That immersion is key.

I am concerned about HJs appeal after you've hit cap level. If they do the slow level up like their other games, they're going to lose a big chunk of the mainstream audience that likes constant rewards. You cap in WoW in three months. You cap in GS in six or seven years. Perhaps they'll find a happy medium, but that place will be hard to attain. So what are the capped people going to do? Huge dungeon raids? So far there have been no mentions of those. Big PvP epic battles between constantly warring factions? Haven't seen much of those either. Will the graphical aspect allow for enough immersive roleplaying to keep people coming back for the interactions time and time again? I'm skeptical that it's even possible at this point, but perhaps they will prove me wrong.

Ultimately, I'm rooting for the game. I've been following development, and it is truly ingenious in many ways. But yes, they're going to get creamed by competition if they don't get their product out before it's too outdated to get the initial interest they'll need to survive. Simu won't go under because of it, however. I have it on good word that DR and GS are still making money at this point, and that's all that's necessary to keep the company running (at least for now)

[Numbers]

Originally posted by Necromancer
But I will say, the graphics are MUCH better than World of Warcraft. WOW looks like a big cartoon. There are some truly amazing areas of the game (Thousand Needles anyone?), but ultimately it fails to give you any sense of realism, and it looks like a parody of real life. HJ graphics are MUCH more realistic, and that means more immersion into the game. That immersion is key.

The thing with WoW's graphics is that they are very similar to the graphics in WarCraft III, which is what Blizzard was aiming for. In terms of sheer graphical power and polygon counts, WoW is barely pushing anything. But in terms of art style, WoW ranks amongst the highest when it comes to MMO's. While FFXI, Guild Wars, and D&DO are processing umpteen times more polygons than WoW, I still think that WoW's graphics are far superior, simply based on the art style. It just goes to show that polygons and realism aren't everything.

I honestly couldn't care less about realism. One of the best games I've played this console generation is Zelda: Wind Waker, and that was made to look like an interactive cartoon. Still a great game, though, and I enjoyed the graphics more than one of the countless super-realistic games out there.




Simu won't go under because of it, however. I have it on good word that DR and GS are still making money at this point, and that's all that's necessary to keep the company running (at least for now)

Here's the thing, though. Running a REAL MMO (GS is still just a MUD) costs lots and lots of money. You've got server costs, bandwidth costs, development costs, customer service costs, maintenance costs, and much more. Not to mention that Simu might not even have a reputable publisher yet. If Simu decides to publish the game on their own, which I think would be beyond their financial capability, that would be even more costs.

And you're doing all this while depending on the boxed price of the game ($50) plus the subscription fee ($15 a month). In order to start gaining revenue, not only do you need to sell a lot of copies of the boxed games, but customers need to hang around and dish out the subscription. I'm wagering that, at this point, less than 20,000 people have even heard of Hero's Journey. If a quarter of those people purchase a copy (and that would be a remarkable penetration rate), it still wouldn't be enough to cover costs.

And yes, there's the whole word of mouth thing. Simu hasn't done a good job of that so far. EverQuest hype started a good year and a half before release. WoW hype started damn near three years before release. And both of those games had huge names behind them (Sony for EverQuest, Blizzard for WoW). Who's Simutronics in the gaming world? We know of them, honestly, but they're a small fish in a really big pond. They're plankton, really.

Their highest point of public awareness occurred in the move to AOL, and then when a DragonRealms player was praised/ridiculed in trade magazines (PC Gamer, etc.) for selling lines of text for thousands of dollars, and later when some friend of a player claimed his friend died in 9/11 to gain control of the account, or some shit like that. Other than that, nobody has heard of Simutronics. 12 months (if, indeed, this game is released at the end of 2006, which is unlikely) is not nearly enough time to gain enough of a reputation to make a dent.

In any case, though, Simutronics will be moving ahead with this game. They're persistent, stubborn, and overly self-confident. Now, GemStone and DragonRealms may be making them a tidy profit, at this point in time. What happens when they publish Hero's Journey, though? What happens when they hire the dozens of customer service representatives they'll need to hire? Representatives that won't work for peanuts because they love the game like the GS and DR GM's do. What happens when they need to hire more programmers and artists? What happens when they buy the servers they'll need? What happens when they start paying for the bandwidth they need?

Simutronics doesn't give up. If they did, CyberStrike, Hercules & Xena, and Modus Operandi would have been shut down a very long time ago. I don't believe that, after putting so much work into Hero's Journey, that they'll ever pull the plug. They'll struggle to the last, until they realize that the profit they're bringing in from GS and DR is not enough to keep HJ running. At that point, since they won't be willing to shut down HJ, they'll most likely attempt another price hike for their GS and DR customers.

It remains to be seen whether their text-based customers will put up with that.

[The Ponzzz]

Well Hercules and Xena never made it...

They got in shit loads of trouble because they went in partnership with the show on the WB and were forced to change the name due to the game lacking...

But on all your other points, I agree.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by The Ponzzz]

[Drew]

Originally posted by Necromancer
I am concerned about HJs appeal after you've hit cap level. If they do the slow level up like their other games, they're going to lose a big chunk of the mainstream audience that likes constant rewards. You cap in WoW in three months. You cap in GS in six or seven years. Perhaps they'll find a happy medium, but that place will be hard to attain. So what are the capped people going to do? Huge dungeon raids? So far there have been no mentions of those. Big PvP epic battles between constantly warring factions? Haven't seen much of those either. Will the graphical aspect allow for enough immersive roleplaying to keep people coming back for the interactions time and time again? I'm skeptical that it's even possible at this point, but perhaps they will prove me wrong.


Perhaps having a similar rate of advancement as WoW to level 60 except where WoW caps you move more to a GS level of advancement. Maybe deliniate the two. Call 60 the "cap" and then allow people who work "extra hard" to advance further.

[Fission]

Simutronics doesn't give up. If they did, CyberStrike, Hercules & Xena, and Modus Operandi would have been shut down a very long time ago. I don't believe that, after putting so much work into Hero's Journey, that they'll ever pull the plug. They'll struggle to the last, until they realize that the profit they're bringing in from GS and DR is not enough to keep HJ running. At that point, since they won't be willing to shut down HJ, they'll most likely attempt another price hike for their GS and DR customers.

There is a huge difference between keeping a game like MO which often has under 10 characters in game afloat, and something like HJ.

You could probably use a cheap box from Dell to act as a server for MO and HX with room to spare.

The amount they're going to have to outlay to float a graphical MMO is up in the millions. Their current servers hang and lag pushing text for under a thousand people at a time... if they want HJ to be profitable, they're going to need a customer base approaching 50,000 to 75,000, and hardware capable of accomodating them.

On the flip side, it may not mean price hikes for DR and GS customers if they take EA's route and bury HJ sometime after launch for a huge tax write-off.

[Skeeter]

If they game does go live, I can only imagine the lag and crashes.

I wonder if Simu will take their normal stance, that everyone else in the world is at fault, and it's not THEIR servers.

$100 says this game never makes it past Beta, if it even gets that far.

[fallenSaint]

Noticed this as I did my morning rounds on the web:

MMORPG Interview (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/4321)

[Makkah]

Yea... MMORPG.com has been getting weekly screenshots and Q&A sessions with Melissa and some other GMs. The HJ GMs are actually very active on the HJ message boards over there. RPGVAULT.com has also been getting fairly regular GM interviews complete with exclusive screens and neat concept art. If you really wanna take a look at some decent HJ shit, go to either of those sites.

[CrystalTears]

Really astounds me at how you can be so down on WoW, which is a product that is out, working and successful, and you're foaming at the mouth for a Simu product that you know nothing of how the game will be.

[Makkah]

Because I've played WoW...

EDITED: In all seriousness, I think it's just the "oooh, ahhh" factor of something new. I'll likely get HJ, fuck with it for a while, and then shit on it too (like I did DAoC and Guild Wars and to a lesser extent, WoW). More than HJ, I'm looking forward to WAR (Mythic's Warhammer MMORPG).

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by Makkah]

[Axhinde]

Some of the screens look amazing, some look pretty lame. The only real reason I thought some looked lame was due to the fact that all the armor models looked the same and there was some choppy pixels going on with what appeared to be the PC. I'm looking forward to at least tinkering for a bit with this game, though Simu's idea of game balance scares me. If Warden is some kind of developer for HJ, then it's all over. I still expect it to be fun, though.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by Axhinde]

[Augie]

I think that when it comes out, I'll try it, but I don't know if I'd get hooked. I saw the feed from that german site which showed Melissa talking about character customization and the different area spells.

I like how you can use the environment to help you. Like one scene she was running through the character shot boulders down upon an invading force of critters. That was pretty cool.

I just hope they know what they're getting in to and have enough behind it to back this game up without giving us GS/DR people a swift kick in the wallet by adding yet another price hike.

[Axhinde]

Another price hike would be too much.

[TheEschaton]

Yanno, what I'm scared of is the player base.

I happen to think that because GSIV (and DR) is text based, we lose some of the snerts (and granted, good players) who say fuck it, I don't wanna read a game.

But then with that limitation removed. Holy shit...again, I'll probably go to HJ too, but skipping straight from GSIV to a graphical MMO will probably be overload for my brain, and I'll need to retreat howling to GSIV.

-TheE-

[Necromancer]

If you've been reading the interviews and such, they've actually released a lot of information about the game. It truly is astounding stuff. I think people are underestimating the kind of quality we're looking at here.

There's a character customization stage that apparently can take hours upon hours and can create something truly unique every time.

There's a huge political system that puts one of the factions in charge at any given time, totally dependent on the actions of the players. Being in charge grants members of your faction certain privileges that no one else gets. Imagine the possibilities.

The dual class system means there will always be something new to try out. 60 combinations? yeesh.

Lots of GMs making things happen constantly, which means all the quest whores will have a graphical home.

Dynamically changing quests. A lot of the quests will apparently have randomized parts to them. So you solving a quest may look completely differently than the next person solving it; meaning you have to use your brain. Scaling quest difficulty so you can go questing with your higher or lower level friends; which makes for better interaction. Plus it means quests don't have to be done in level ranges, which means every quest in the game can be open at any given time, depending on your particular actions in the game (i.e. whether or not you do the things necessary to unlock them).



Now we just have to hope they've got the resources necessary to get this going in time. Because if they do, it's really going to be fantastic I think.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by Necromancer]

[Fission]

At least a chunk of the price hikes will come in the form of even more pay events with $75 - $200 tickets. For all some people bitch about them, they still sell out damned quick.

[Augie]

Originally posted by Fission
At least a chunk of the price hikes will come in the form of even more pay events with $75 - $200 tickets. For all some people bitch about them, they still sell out damned quick.

This is true. As long as they put out pay events that I know I'll enjoy, I'll continue to go to them.

What I don't want to see is that every other month we have a pay event. Then it gets into overkill and you have players and GMs who get burned out and other priorities in the game decline.

[TheEschaton]

This sounds cool:


Like players, creatures can grow in experience. As one example, your character may even develop an ongoing antagonistic relationship with a particular creature… it, in effect, becoming your nemesis! As you journey through the game, he’ll keep popping up to harass you in one form or another, but like you he’ll be growing in power, abilities and (perhaps) minions. This is part of the dynamic story mechanism called the Journey System.

From Melissa, from one of those interviews.

[Jolena]

:yeahthat: I agree completely that the costs of HJ are going to be subsidized by the pay events in DR and GS. I too would continue to pay for them as long as they are interesting and not simply repeats of the same WD cruise 20 times. I went on the maiden voyage of the WD and on the 3rd one as well on a friend's account who couldn't make it for RL reasons, but I don't forsee paying over and over for that same event month after month. Half of the pull of it for me was that it was something new and I did not anticipate it coming again for at least another year. Boy was I wrong.

[Jolena]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
This sounds cool:


Like players, creatures can grow in experience. As one example, your character may even develop an ongoing antagonistic relationship with a particular creature… it, in effect, becoming your nemesis! As you journey through the game, he’ll keep popping up to harass you in one form or another, but like you he’ll be growing in power, abilities and (perhaps) minions. This is part of the dynamic story mechanism called the Journey System.

From Melissa, from one of those interviews.

And oddly similar to the friend/foe systems that were supposed to be out in GSIV. :rolleyes:

[TheEschaton]

Ha! I'd love it if my Charlian priest was haunted by a fire demon of some sort.


Anyways, as primarily a player of priests, over the years, there doesn't seem to be many religious motifs in HJs, except nature-worshipping druid types. That might suck, though I guess I can just translate that into a water lover.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Jolena
And oddly similar to the friend/foe systems that were supposed to be out in GSIV. :rolleyes:

:lol: I remember that. Everyone was actually excited about the concept and it never happened.

[Axhinde]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Ha! I'd love it if my Charlian priest was haunted by a fire demon of some sort.


Anyways, as primarily a player of priests, over the years, there doesn't seem to be many religious motifs in HJs, except nature-worshipping druid types. That might suck, though I guess I can just translate that into a water lover.

-TheE-

Or you could try something different.

Good thing with MMO's is quick gains translates into trying the various ways to play. I somehow doubt the RP aspect of HJ will take flight, unfortunately. There's no forced RP in GS, with 1k players. How can they do it in HJ, with possibly 5k-15k people per server? I'm interested to see how this works out.

[Makkah]

<<And oddly similar to the friend/foe systems that were supposed to be out in GSIV. >>

Not that similar... probably more similar to a graphical RPG...

[SpunGirl]

I wonder if they'll give current play.net subscribers a free trial :lol2:

-K

[radamanthys]

Question: They say End of '06. Is that for our beta, or full release? From what I've heard, all subscribers of GS, DR, etc. will be getting a beta invite, and beta takes a while.

[Makkah]

They'll give the Simucon folks first dibs at Beta, then probably slowly open it up to their current base. I'd guesstimate Beta starting this early summer sometime. Gonna need like 6 months min for Beta I'd guess.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Makkah
<<And oddly similar to the friend/foe systems that were supposed to be out in GSIV. >>

Not that similar... probably more similar to a graphical RPG...

No it was very similar. It was going to be as they described.. for GS4.. that you can make enemies with the critters, they grow older and earn experience and such just like players, it was just never implemented.

[Daniel]

I'll try it out, but I doubt Simu has enough GM's on staff to provide alot of quests if they're initial player base is anywhere near what every other MMOG was.

[Necromancer]

Actually, the big holdup right now IS the quests. They're making them, and they have a HUGE group of GMs working on them. I don't forsee quests being a big issue.

[Daniel]

Until they've all been done and you want somehting new to hold your attention.

[CrystalTears]

If they setup quests similar to how WoW does them, they won't need GMs after the setup except for bugs or whatnot.

[Makkah]

<<No it was very similar. It was going to be as they described.. for GS4.. that you can make enemies with the critters, they grow older and earn experience and such just like players, it was just never implemented. >>

No, not really. The original (and scrapped) FoF [Friend or Foe] system was to be implemented to gain specific enemies and specific allies (read: Krolvin vs Reivers). The main point was not to see an advancing enemy experience-wise.

[Chastittee]

Ok so, Ive not read this thread before....There's loads I want to comment on and I'm sure I'll forget some and come back in a few minutes and post more :-P

Anyhow, I'm part of the HJ High Council and have been talking with Skippy and other HJ GM's and such.

First off, if they pull off even HALF of what they say they're going to do, it'll be amazing.

Second, until just a few weeks ago, all the screen shots and demo videos were done without shadows put in, which is why they looked crappy. The newest screenshots on MMORPG.com should have shadows now.

Third, as far as I know, no definite promises have been made regarding beta. I'm pretty sure those who got accepted to the Hero's Council forums get invites, but I'm not sure of where it goes from there.

Fourth, current release date is second quarter 2006, not end of year far as I know.

Fifth, some of us on the closed forums discussion that play or have played other Simu games have suggested they give a free trial to us, let us start a week or two early, give us a bundled package price discount type thing with our other Simu games, or at least set up a server tagged in some way for Simu players. I personally asked for the last option. I know when WoW was released, a lot of people got it for xmas and didn't talk to other people...So while I'm on a server with maybe half a dozen of former Simu players that are friends of mine, I've had no less than half a dozen other Simu friends ask me later to join their server. I thought I'd be nice to install the game and see one of each server type (RP, PVP, RPPVP, etc.) flagged as for former Simu players and maybe kept for Simu players for a few weeks before its opened to the public.

Another reason I asked for this addresses another issue brought up here...Roleplay. Roleplay in other games, in comparison to games like GS, is virtually nonexistant. In my opinion, GM's alone won't be able to enforce this in a graphical game. Having hard core roleplayers together on the same server is a good way to encourage it. How many times have you been in GS and seen someone go OOC? Do the GM's step in? Usually not. More often than not, its the other players that roleplay it out as a "What? I don't understand you." situation. Or they simply whisper to them and let them know what they've said/done is not acceptable in a roleplaying environment.

Oh, and as far as a publisher goes, I don't *think* they've done anything official yet, but over the past few weeks I've sent IM's to Skippy just to say Hi and see what's up and he's said he was working on one thing or another and in a big rush to get yet another demo out to a publisher. So, they're definitely working on finding a publisher. I highly doubt they'll try to publish on their own.

As far as player base goes, word of mouth does indeed go a long way. I've talked to quite a few people about it in WoW and GS alike. The GS crowd seems pretty split over it, which I expected. No graphical game has even come close to the depth and level of roleplay found in GS.

The Warcraft crowd is undoubtedly all for it and very excited. Most of them like WoW better than the other graphical MMORPGs out there, but are still in search of something with far more depth and customization.


Sorry I babbled on so much. I'm just very excited about HJ and personally cannot wait for beta and the final release. I've got high hopes for it.


Chastittee, Lihai, et al.

[Fission]

It should be interesting to see what their pricing model will be.

If they charge as much as even a basic Gem or DR account, they'll be charging above industry average, and even moreso when you factor in discounts allowed for prepaying multiple months.

If they actually go higher than that, they can expect to hear a lot of crickets when almost nobody signs up.

If they go lower than that, they'll get to hear plenty of bitching from the GS and DR players wondering why they're paying more to get less, in effect.

Of course, given that if they launch tomorrow they'll be going up against WoW, EQ, GW, Lineage, FFXI, DAoC, UO, AC, Shadowbane, etc., chances are they may be hearing a lot of crickets after the first four months anyway.

[Chastittee]

I believe the plans are to keep with industry standards. Around $40-50 for the boxed game and $15/month. Not entirely sure, but I seem to have that stuck in my head. I'd have to scour the boards though to check for sure.

[Skeeter]

when they first opened the HJ folder on the officials, I asked how they could justify charging $15 to be competitive with other MMORPGs while charging double that for a text game.

The official reply: they didn't feel $15 represented a good average of what most graphicals charged for a monthly fee.


Don't be surprised if they attempt to charge upwards of $40 a month for a subscription fee. Assuming of course this whole mess ever gets off the ground.

[Necromancer]

Did you really just suggest that they would charge $40 a month for playing their game with a straight face? What an inane comment.

[Numbers]

Charging anything more than $15 a month would be a death sentence for this game. They might lure some of the GemStone'ers who are willing to pay that much, and most likely the die-harders who have multiple premium accounts.

But a casual player would refuse to pay more than the industry standard.

[Artha]

Having multiple accounts with a MMORPG is pretty useless.

[Fission]

Did you really just suggest that they would charge $40 a month for playing their game with a straight face? What an inane comment.

Inane enough that Sony tried it with the biggest MMORPG at the time, with an experiment called EQ Legends, which by coincedence is being shuttered next month.

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Fission

Did you really just suggest that they would charge $40 a month for playing their game with a straight face? What an inane comment.

Inane enough that Sony tried it with the biggest MMORPG at the time, with an experiment called EQ Legends, which by coincedence is being shuttered next month.

Yeah but EQ Legends had some ridiculously uber gear in it and it was an easy way to 'cheat' the system to move your character between servers which resulted in cross-server uber guild recruiting techniques. GS Platinum is... more of the same. With less people.

EDIT:

More to the topic, though - I agree that charging more than the industry standard would cripple Hero's Journey from the beginning. The only way I would consider paying large sums for this game is if they actually strictly enforced roleplaying like they do in Gemstone. Most MMO gamers wouldn't consider it, though.

[Edited on 1-5-2006 by Ebondale]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Augie
It's in QC

Which means absolutely nothing per Simutronics standards.

With all the self-hype and manpower the folks are putting into this product, they're overlooking the sheer hardware and human support it will take to even drive it.

When, and more importantly ... if, HJ ever goes public, how long do you think the bird will flap it's wings before it takes a nose dive?

Simu doesn't have a good reputation for timely releases.

Simu doesn't have a good reputation for repairing bugs.

Simu doesn't have a good reputation for continued development.

Simu doesn't have a good reputation for enforcing jack shit ... unless it's an exploit can cause harm to the cash sale of silver or items.

Are we to believe that once HJ goes live all of this will suddenly not be true?

Let's not even get into how anyone can make a crap product look fantastic for display. I'm not buying how good this game is going to be until real people see how the game loads and runs on an actual computer while interacting with Simu servers.

Price, as mentioned, is also a big factor. The going rates for most games still hover in the 15 buck area. Most of these games don't have "add ons" and "pay events". Will Simu price competitively? Or will they gouge from the get go? Even better ... will they continue to implement add on events?

The real draw to a game like WoW is that you don't have to shell out a few extra hundred or grand a year to have the best gear. You have to work within a team atmosphere. A kid with money to burn can't get much from these games because most teams or guilds won't have them. They're stuck with the next best thing at cap ... gear you can get with any random group.

Even the best craftables require end game runs for the materials ... and that requires a team atmosphere as well.

So my guess is 2010, out of date, no real support, no real continued and timely development, no real enforcement, and a thriving e-bay market because simu will need to rely on the folks with too much time and no priorities with cash in order for their products to continue to survive.

I think this is going to a bombed graphic version of their existing products, over priced and one server in the end.

I could be wrong, but I'll bet against Simu's rep any day of the week.

[Skeeter]

Originally posted by Necromancer
Did you really just suggest that they would charge $40 a month for playing their game with a straight face? What an inane comment.

Hey douchebag,

they charge as much for premium and platinum accounts for a TEXT based game.

Yeah, it's ME that's the fucking lunatic.

[Ardwen]

No add ons and pay events? damned near every game I play sells expansions in the store every what 3-4 months? EQ2 will be getting its second large expansion and level increase next month as well as having already had 2 small expansions as well. How does that equal no add ons?


Ardwen

[CrystalTears]

WoW hasn't had their first expansion pack out yet and it's been over a year. :P

[Tsa`ah]

An expansion is not the same thing as a pay event or add on. It's a one shot deal that comes around every year or two that adds content/levels whatever. It's not limited, it's not exclusive, and it runs about the same cost as the original boxed disc.

Add ons are various levels of "service". Pay events are tickets sold for exclusive content in limited supply in order to create a demand and half assed justify the exhorbitant cost.

UO used to sell exclusive content. It first started off as unique appearances and items, then it evolved into high end gear. There were huge problems with this (before they sold out to EA games) simply because they didn't have the staff or good communications between departments. Essentially they had to patch this stuff into updates for the client side application. They couldn't keep up, they couldn't get it right .... and customers were pissed off that they spent excessive amounts of cash for shit they didn't get in a timely manner or ever.

UO couldn't function independantly anymore and ended up selling out to EA. EA came in and put a stop to content for cash. It was too time, labor, and resource exhausting for the return ... and the shit was expensive to begin with.

Surprisingly, EA still operates UO ... and it's so out of date. They have reward programs and semi-exclusive content for pre-ordering expansions, but nothing near the ball-park of what Simu does with it's text based games. That is because Simu products currently lack a client side program, just a UI to play.

The big boys figured out that gouging their customer base, and then gouging them more with exclusive content would kill their games.

Will Simu follow that line of thought? Or will they go the UO route and end up losing their identity to a large faceless corporation?

[Ebondale]

Re-hashing this topic again.

I will base my decision to play this game on two things:

1) There is only one server. This makes the game have a community feel to it not dissimilar from Gemstone.

2) There are no such things as guilds. I feel that the whole 'guild' mentality has taken the point away from online Role Playing games. People join MMOs and powerlevel themselves to get into a good guild and get high-end equipment. In my opinion this lowers the quality of players that are in the afore mentioned 'community'. If people don't force themselves into a false competitive nature then it is my hope that they will concentrate more on the community aspect of the game. Maybe even ACTUALLY role play.

I remember when EverQuest first came out and I was playing it in the first week after it came out of beta. These people were talking about computers and 'lolz' this and 'rofle!!1' that and I was like, "Hey look, this is a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE PLAYING Game. Try to say in character." and they were all like "STFU nub lolz"

I hate morons in online games.

[Artha]

1) There is only one server. This makes the game have a community feel to it not dissimilar from Gemstone.
This is not a good idea. Let's say they get a fraction of WoW's players and have 100k subscribers. 60k are on at one time. The server is now a puddle of plastic and silicone.

Also:

I remember when EverQuest first came out and I was playing it in the first week after it came out of beta. These people were talking about computers and 'lolz' this and 'rofle!!1' that and I was like, "Hey look, this is a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE PLAYING Game. Try to say in character." and they were all like "STFU nub lolz"
If there's only one server, these people are going to be running all around you and everyone else that'd like to role play. WoW's set up is pretty good, with three types of servers. I'd like to see HJ do something like that, and hopefully enforce the RP on those servers.

However, it's my opinion that the reason there is no RP in many of these MMORPGs out right now is because there is no forced rest period, as there is in Gemstone. You're out killing or questing 24/7, so who even has the chance to interact with people aside from 'LFG [35+] Mor'Ladim'?

[Ebondale]

:lol: Fucking Mor'Ladim. I hate that guy.

You make a good point about the forced rest period. Hopefully HJ will stick to that. The RP that you find on WoW's RP servers leaves much to be desired.

Perhaps I should clarify. I don't care if HJ is multiple servers, but I think it should be a single world.

Lets put this into GS terminology now. Multiple servers could handle each of the towns. Popular hunting areas should probably also each have their own servers. Unique servers for special Simutronics events like the Jugg and EG. Hell, the amunet in each town should get its own server.

HJ will never. EVER. Have nearly the same number of subscribers as WoW has. I'd be surprised if it ever reached 10,000 online. I don't see why they couldn't keep HJ as one world. *shrug*

[Daniel]

That's stupid. Do you think they would even bother if they thought they'd never have under 10k ?

[Daniel]

Over*

[Ebondale]

Yes. Simutronics isn't a very well-known company, after all. You honestly think that HJ is going to outshine a software giant like Blizzard?

[Numbers]

Star Wars Galaxies had forced rest periods, and from what I've heard, RP wasn't so strong in that game.

It's difficult to roleplay in a graphical game, which I think is the crux of the problem with the RP quality in all of these MMO's. It's difficult to express emotion when your character always has the same plastic face. Basic emoticons can only go so far.

[Ebondale]

Who needs the character's face to actually reflect it, though. Gemstone is a glorified chat-room. Take GS and add graphics to it and I'd still say its a great RPG even if the graphics don't acurately portray a "GRIN SLYLY" verb or a "POUND ANGRILY ON TABLE".

[Artha]

I recall hearing something about custom gestures at Simucon 04 (or was it 03?). That'd be pretty amazing, and definitely conducive to RP.

[Warriorbird]

People gave up on the Sierra Online model a good while ago.

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Artha
I recall hearing something about custom gestures at Simucon 04 (or was it 03?). That'd be pretty amazing, and definitely conducive to RP.

How could they even pull off "custom gestures" unless they enslaved some stop-motion photography chimps or Tayre (he needs a job) or something like that.

[Artha]

I don't know. It was something Whatley said in passing.

[Numbers]

Is Simu gonna be at E3 this year?

[Hips]

Yes.

[Sean of the Thread]

WHY?

[Artha]

Hero's Journey

[peam]

I'd be much more comfortable if they'd just hang HJ out to dry.

[Skeeter]

I wonder how much money they blew to get a booth at E3

[Alfster]

Probably right around the cost of a simucon

[Numbers]

I think they usually go to the bargain basement area of booths, where small independent companies go to show of their games. It's largely ignored by the big press, as there's some pretty stupid and crappy games in that area.

[Skeeter]

like HJ for instance

[Numbers]

Eh, I wouldn't call HJ a stupid or crappy game. It won best of E3 from MMORPG.com last year. It's definitely got a whole lot of potential.

The biggest problem with the game right now is that it's being made by Simutronics.

[zhelas]

Eh, I wouldn't call HJ a stupid or crappy game. It won best of E3 from MMORPG.com last year. It's definitely got a whole lot of potential.

The biggest problem with the game right now is that it's being made by Simutronics.

Has there ever been an opportunity in the past that folks know of where a company has approached Simu to buy them? What I am getting at is if they make a HJ and it has some decent infrastructure with character developement, customization etc etc. That they might get purchased?

[Fission]

If someone actually purchased Simu, you could probably kiss all of the text games goodbye. If it was someone like EA that loves buying companies to gut out and close, say goodbye to Simu too.

I'm still betting they'll go EA's route of letting the game limp along for a year or two, and then closing it for a large tax writeoff.

[zhelas]

If someone actually purchased Simu, you could probably kiss all of the text games goodbye. If it was someone like EA that loves buying companies to gut out and close, say goodbye to Simu too.

I'm still betting they'll go EA's route of letting the game limp along for a year or two, and then closing it for a large tax writeoff.

I can see the scenario you mentioned above happening. It is definately possible that the text games would be dropped. However they might be picked up by some group of dedicated followers who run it as a small cottage industry. Still it would be the end of these games.

[Artha]

Purchasing Simu to buy HJ would probably be a waste of money, as the HJ engine is being licensed. Which is why HJ itself is taking so long.

[hgsouth]

Simu should just stick to the text based, and maybe advertise a little to bring people in. There are just too many graphical games on the market...in my opinion it's just too flooded to create a good standout game. I'm afraid HJ will go the way of Horizons, Shadowbane, SWG, etc.

[Makkah]

Couple rumors already flying that they've sold a few licenses of HeroEngine since the GDC...

Also, the booth looked pretty fucking good. It's obvious they sunk some money into it.

http://images.mmorpg.com/images/e32006photos/27.jpg
http://images.mmorpg.com/images/e32006photos/30.jpg
http://images.mmorpg.com/images/e32006photos/31.jpg

[Daniel]

Where's the Asian bitches in string bikinis? I'm (once again) dissapointed in simu

[Skeeter]

actually, that screen shot looked pretty horrible

[Sean of the Thread]

Didn't they ban skimpy booth girls this year? wtf.

[CrystalTears]

That second image is horrible. And for someone who kept tearing down WoW for having "horrible" graphics, that's no better, and it's still cartoon-like.

[Wezas]

I think Simu should advertise more as well. Especially now with the Harry Potter book phase still going on, it's time to market those kids.

Commercial:

Kid reading a fantasy book like Potter. Goes to his PC and plays Diablo 2-ish game and gets bored quickly. goes on the internet, sees the Gemstone dragon logo, clicks it, and the commercial blows up with graphics/animation/etc.

Something about the imagination being the best graphics card.

Else, I don't see many new people heading into GS other than to cause trouble.

[Makkah]

Well if you'll notice, all the Ilvari in their images are shit. They haven't polished them up yet.

EDIT: I wouldn't expect you to know that though.

[zhelas]

Something about the imagination being the best graphics card.

You mean I have to read?!?

Just kidding. I agree that the imagination can paint a much more enriching environment than having the programers hand it to you.

[Makkah]

Interesting... HJ/Simu won two E3 awards (Biggest Surprise and Best Engine) from Stratics. I'm not sure if the Biggest Surprise is simply because of the "gore" or if the whole game surprised them, but it's at least something. As for the engine, we (Simu subscribers) can only hope they DO/DID sell some HeroEngine licenses. Seems like a decent source of revenue.


http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/e3/content/goldencogs/2006/golden_cogs_2006.php

[CrystalTears]

It looks like it was only because of the gore, because most times on multiplayer games doesn't show blood. It would then require them to change the rating of the game to probably Mature, and it seems like that they don't think it will stay in.

[hgsouth]

I think I'll be unsatisfied with MMO's until we get total immersion back-of-the-head plug in things where the MMO is pretty much like real life. Actually, that's pretty scary, but the idea is cool. Tad William's book Otherland had something like a MMO that this kid played that was total immersion. Those were my favorite chapters, haha.

[Boris]

1.)Graphical MMO's problem is staying power (duration for which it is viable),graphics advance every 8 months or so HJ for all purposes is already behind. I think SIMU has misread the market here, MUDs are timeless there are still people playing even after this text game format has been around for 20+ some years. Graphical MMOs come and go in a 4-5 year cycle. (Perhaps even less).

2.) SIMU thinks it's edge is character development/detail. To be frank, if you really start looking out maybe 5 years ahead there are so many MMO's in the works with such insane goals like RL voice speech for total player immersion. These are gaming companies with backing from multi national corporations like Microsoft, Sony, and Viacom.

3.) The requirement of upkeep and ultimately profit is just not there. I think SIMU is going to need a pbase of at least 10,000-15,000 players to make this a viable product. I do not see this happening since competition is going to be extremely fierce. SIMU doesn't understand that general gamers (not MUDers) are very fickle (I work in the marketing end of this business) and the advent of the PS3 or the new Nintendo DS whatever is going to sharply curb the MMO trends. Personally, I see a bigger trend in console MMOing happening (the next gen console graphics are just unbeatable), especially if a new technology comes out where you can get broadband speeds on those consoles cheaply. Anyhow just my 2 cents.

[StrayRogue]

I highly doubt console graphics will ever be better than the top end PC at the time.

[Makkah]

On a related note...

www.heroshall.com has three more E3 videos for HJ.

[Landrion]

1.)Graphical MMO's problem is staying power (duration for which it is viable),graphics advance every 8 months or so HJ for all purposes is already behind. I think SIMU has misread the market here, MUDs are timeless there are still people playing even after this text game format has been around for 20+ some years. Graphical MMOs come and go in a 4-5 year cycle. (Perhaps even less).


I remain mystified as to how the biggest piece of shit I have ever played (UO) is still around and it came out before Everquest.

[CrystalTears]

I saw the first and third videos (since the second is way too large for me to download at work) and they don't look half bad.

The thing is, what I saw is what it would look like playing a human in WoW (or probably Everquest, I just don't know what it looks like lately). The graphics don't look much different. They're not even that much better. I can already tell the interface in WoW is easier to use than this.

And I STILL don't see how roleplaying on this game will have ANY kind of comparison to GS. In my opinion, no graphic game can. The visual of the toon will remain stagnant while you see chatted roleplay.

It doesn't look bad, but for me, it's just too little too late. It's not awe-inspiring for me enough to try yet.

[Fission]

I think SIMU is going to need a pbase of at least 10,000-15,000 players to make this a viable product.

This isn't even close to what they're really going to need. They'll save money over standard MMOs by fielding a semi-volunteer staff, but they're going to need to shell out for new servers, software, advertising, the works.

The servers and their software alone can run into seven figures, easily.

It's also very unlikely they'll be able to charge $40 for any level of account like they can get away with on their text games due to lack of effective competition, so they're going to need more subscriptions to bring in the revenue.

50,000 to 75,000 is probably closer to what's needed for an actual viable business concern, though they may be able to offset this amount somewhat with licensing fees for their game engine.

[AestheticDeath]

I think I'll be unsatisfied with MMO's until we get total immersion back-of-the-head plug in things where the MMO is pretty much like real life. Actually, that's pretty scary, but the idea is cool. Tad William's book Otherland had something like a MMO that this kid played that was total immersion. Those were my favorite chapters, haha.

Ditto, though I wouldnt play if it was a plug-in type thing. Though, if it was one of those sticky round things like hospital equipment used... perhaps.

[Numbers]

D'oh, the links for those videos are down. Anyone know if they're being hosted anywhere else?

But, in terms of the game, the problem Simu's going to face is that, yet again, dozens of new MMO's were announced during E3 (half or more of which will probably never launch, or will close down within a year), so Simu's playing in a crowded pool. Add to that that they're doing NO advertising at all and that their technology is very quickly becoming dated (PC technology is going to see a HUGE boost when the PS3 comes out, you'll see), Simu needs to get this game out ASAP.

The game's got a lot of potential, as I've said before, but we all know how Simu runs things (or, if you prefer, doesn't run things), and they're still way below the radar.

[Gan]

Bump.

Found more info while reading through gameamp.com.

I find it very interesting that Simu is using HJ as a platform for game producers to invest in pre-developed game engine architecture for their MMO's, namely HeroEngine.

Very interesting indeed.

Additional links found on the gameamp link below that leads to interviews, etc.

A few sites of interest.

http://herosjourney.gameamp.com/

http://www.play.net/playdotnet/platform/