NYC Transit strike

[Unique]

As written, for example, www.nytimes.com

Hell.

Go injunction.




Unique.

[Gan]

Unions...

Gotta love em.

[Unique]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Unions...

Gotta love em.

My love/hate of unions is very situational. They have their good points (or had...)


In this case I need to invent a way to get to a 9am final tomorrow morning.

Like I said, go injunction!

Unique.

[Warriorbird]

Makes me wish this was occurring in North Carolina. I'd definitely cross a picket line to pick up a good transit job.

Being as the strike is illegal, I'm not very sympathetic to the union.

[Skirmisher]

They chose this week to cause the most chaos possible.

It is illegal.

They are costing businesses untold millions of dollars. How many stores depend on the Christmas season for a huge chunk of their annual revenue and this union does not care one bit except to use that as leverage?

If it were possible I would say to fire them all ala Reagan and the air traffic controllers.

Look what they've done! Making me sound like a Republican darnit... :(

[Sean]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
They chose this week to cause the most chaos possible.

It is illegal.

They are costing businesses untold millions of dollars. How many stores depend on the Christmas season for a huge chunk of their annual revenue and this union does not care one bit except to use that as leverage?

If it were possible I would say to fire them all ala Reagan and the air traffic controllers.

Look what they've done! Making me sound like a Republican darnit... :(

Not only that but they fucked a lot of students who use the transit system to get to and from school.

[nocturnix]

Hey I didnt have to go to work today, that was nice.

Granted I still had craploads of work to do from home.

Unions have their advantages yes, but so far my experience with the Unions in NYC has been all bad.

A different union, construction workers or something has been protesting outside of my office in manhattan for two weeks now about a couple of non-union workers doing some kind of work inside my building. They have a huge blow-up rat with a scab on it's belly and they pick fights with the scabs coming in to work, almost got caught up in one of their fights already...so as you can see my experience with unions has been pretty negative so far.

[Jorddyn]

I believe in a living wage, annual raises for those who are doing their jobs well, and affordable insurance.

From here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10466982/page/2/):

The union said the latest MTA offer included annual raises of 3 percent, 4 percent and 3.5 percent; the previous proposal included 3 percent raises each year. MTA workers earn between $47,000 and $55,000 annually.

The MTA wants to raise the age at which new employees become eligible for full pension from 55 to 62, which the union says is unfair.

Bus drivers making $55k and retiring will full pensions at 55, and they're asking for more? Now, I know that some of these drivers are amazing at their jobs, but I'd bet a large chunk of them could be replaced with fully trained individuals who do just as good within the span of a few weeks.

As much as I hate to say it, I'm with Skirm, and sounding like a Republican. Anyone who returns immediately keeps their position, current pay, and current benefits. Everyone else is fired, and can re-apply like anyone else.

Unions are largely unnecessary since the advent of OSHA and Fair Labor laws. This just proves it even more so to me.

Jorddyn

[Unique]

Day 2 of the strike.

Situation: Must travel from the Bronx to Manhattan for a 9am final.

Method: Left apartment at 4am. Took 20 minutes to drive into Manhattan (usually takes 45-60). Took about 8 seconds to find free street parking within a block of campus. Slept in car for a couple hours before getting out for some coffee.

Result: Success.

On a normal day I would have taken the subway. The trip is about an hour but I can read/study and drink my coffee on the way. If I wasn't a car owner I would have been royally screwed.

Next situation: Flight from JFK at 4:21 pm.

Method: Getting a ride.

Result: unkown at present.

We'll see how it goes. At least I get to jump state while this strike gets resolved.

Unique.

[Edited on 12-21-2005 by Unique]

[Farquar]

I feel bad for my support staff. They were required to come into the office to courier and fax documents to all the attorneys working from home. Meanwhile, I'm home working on a million dollar doc wearing only boxers and a Santa hat.

[Terminator X]

I am going to be in deep doo-doo if there are sympathy strikes on LIRR or Metro North from Grand Central.

[Terminator X]

...Which would be inhuman.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Terminator X
I am going to be in deep doo-doo if there are sympathy strikes on LIRR or Metro North from Grand Central.

I can't believe that would happen.

The twu's national organization is pressing for NYC local members to return to work.

The fines being charged each day on the local is going to bankrupt the union coffers tomorow.

TWU workers are starting at a higher rate than some nycpd officers.

Public sentiment is incrediby against the union as far as I can see.

The city is going to court today to try to get a 25K per day fine imposed on each worker personally. That should get their attention if the city succeeds.

[Rowi]

Go Wal-Mart lovers, talk how fair labor laws work and OSHA, go Wal-Mart!


Ok, I have sat at the table of Negotiation's between Companies and Unions, PEOPLE do not know the history of a contract, which is in play here i am sure.

Lets say last contract the Union gave up raises over the course of 5 years to keep the age at 55?? now the City (company) wants to take it away? That is Unfair, who knows what the HISTORY of this contract holds but it is key, Me or you have not sat at this table we have not heard the verbal agreements of today of 10 years ago.

So dont jump on the Union only it takes two sides to make a company work, as for fireing them all, yea lets do that and bring in someone with less of a benefit package, hey lets let Wal-Mart do the Hiring!

[Unique]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
The fines being charged each day on the local is going to bankrupt the union coffers tomorow.


A judge imposed a 1 million dollar per day fine on the union. Seems like a lot? It isn't. 1 million dollars per day/33,000 workers means the real cost is $30 per day per worker. Not so much.


Originally posted by Skirmisher
The city is going to court today to try to get a 25K per day fine imposed on each worker personally. That should get their attention if the city succeeds.

That's $250 per day per worker, I believe. They can also push for a 30 day stay in jail.

Unique.

[Jorddyn]

edited because I can't tell "Reply" from "edit"

[Edited on 12-21-2005 by Jorddyn]

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Rowi
Go Wal-Mart lovers, talk how fair labor laws work and OSHA, go Wal-Mart!
...
So dont jump on the Union only it takes two sides to make a company work, as for fireing them all, yea lets do that and bring in someone with less of a benefit package, hey lets let Wal-Mart do the Hiring!

1. If WalMart shuts down for a day, or even a week, people can shop other places. When mass transit shuts down in a city the size of New York, there are very limited options.

2. If you would read the articles, they want to raise the age for retirement from 55 to 62 for new hires only.

3. If I give up pay raises for a 5 year contract to keep my 12 weeks vacation, the vacation is not safe forever. It's back on the bargaining table in the next round.

4. Chill.

Edited to add: 5. Someone making 50k a year with full retirement at 55 is hardly in the WalMart class of employee.

Edited again to add: 6. It is illegal for them to strike. They're doing it anyway. Fire their asses, a la Reagan.

Jorddyn

[Edited on 12-21-2005 by Jorddyn]

[Rowi]

For generations, a job in New York’s subways and buses was the first step on the road to the American dream. The MTA is telling us Not Any More.That’s what this strike is all about.

We know how hard things are for New Yorkers. It’s hard to get around New York when the trains and buses aren’t rolling. It’s hard for us and our families too.

We are losing wages, and the Mayor wants every transit worker to pay fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Easy for a billionaire. But we’re working people like you.

So why is the strike still on? Ask the MTA and Governor Pataki. They are the ones who shut down New York’s lifeline. They came in at the last minute with a take-it-or-leave-it 10 year 4% pay cut for all future hires.

They risked your livelihood and the whole NYC economy over a proposal that top legislators in both parties say is illegal. (Times, Dec. 20)

It’s up to the Governor and the MTA to get things rolling. Call them. Tell them to Stop it. We need real leadership to get the buses and trains rolling again.

MTA - 212-878-7274

Governor Pataki - 518-474-7516

[Rowi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Rowi
Go Wal-Mart lovers, talk how fair labor laws work and OSHA, go Wal-Mart!
...
So dont jump on the Union only it takes two sides to make a company work, as for fireing them all, yea lets do that and bring in someone with less of a benefit package, hey lets let Wal-Mart do the Hiring!

1. If WalMart shuts down for a day, or even a week, people can shop other places. When mass transit shuts down in a city the size of New York, there are very limited options.

2. If you would read the articles, they want to raise the age for retirement from 55 to 62 for new hires only.

3. If I give up pay raises for a 5 year contract to keep my 12 weeks vacation, the vacation is not safe forever. It's back on the bargaining table in the next round.

4. Chill.

Edited to add: 5. Someone making 50k a year with full retirement at 55 is hardly in the WalMart class of employee.

Edited again to add: 6. It is illegal for them to strike. They're doing it anyway. Fire their asses, a la Reagan.

Jorddyn

[Edited on 12-21-2005 by Jorddyn]

1. Never said they are in the same class, just showing that companies dont follow labor laws and fair practices is all.

2. they want decreases in wages for new hires as well.

3. Correct it is, show you should lose it? or keep it?

4. I cant its nice and warm here!!

5. ............

6. The mayor apparently wants Toussaint and the TWU to accept a two-tier pension system. Then he can get all the municipal unions to follow suit and accept a weak new pension tier in their next contracts.

All across this city, workers who have no pensions and who must pay huge premiums for health insurance hear about transit workers fighting to preserve pensions at 55 and employer-paid health insurance. They fall prey to the Bloomberg line of "greedy workers."

Have the rest of us been beaten down, exploited and abused for so long by our own employers that we will allow transit workers who dare to defend their standard of living to be painted as thugs?

To hear Bloomberg talk, the Taylor Law came down with the Ten Commandments - and wasn't a modern concoction by politicians to curb the power and influence of our city's municipal unions.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Unique

A judge imposed a 1 million dollar per day fine on the union. Seems like a lot? It isn't. 1 million dollars per day/33,000 workers means the real cost is $30 per day per worker. Not so much.

The union had just before the strike 3.6 million in its war chest. Day three will leave it with that day to settle or have to ask their workers to somehow pay the difference starting day four.



That's $250 per day per worker, I believe. They can also push for a 30 day stay in jail.
Unique.

And unless i completely misunderstood the new fines the city was to ask for in court today and that they had gotten the court to agree to back in 1990, i think they said, the fine of 25K was 25K per day for EACH member of the union striking.

[Jorddyn]

The strike is illegal thanks to the Taylor Law, put into effect in 1967. Let's say the youngest worker at that time was 18. With full pension at 55, the worker would have retired last year. So? So, that means every person working for the transit authority took the job knowing it was illegal to strike. They're striking anyway.

Additionally, labor unions were originally meant to stop unfair practices, and ensure fair wages. The average transit worker is making 48k, is guaranteed full pension at 55, and pays $0 out of pocket for health insurance. Yes, they choose to live in one of the most expensive cities in the nation, so they aren't getting rich. The wages are certainly not unfair, however.

And finally! The New York transit system is running in the red (huge surprise). Who do you suppose is funding the defecit? (Hint: taxpayers) Let's say Joe Blow works at Starbucks for $10 an hour. How fair is it that his taxes are higher so that Joe BusDriver can make 50k a year with full benefits?

If you don't like the way your company is treating you, you're free to leave. When there are 20 people lined up outside ready to take your job, maybe you should consider you didn't have it so bad in the first place.

Jorddyn, not a fan of unions

[Rowi]

Yea, there will always be someone at your door to take your job. Thank god for contracts, you work in a office? shit they can replace you in two seconds with cheaper labor, might not always be the same value of work but it gets done.

the MTA has money in the bank, end of story! believe otherwise you a donkey following the carrot like most in this country.

When someone comes to you to sell you a car that you have to drive over the next 5 years and says "HEY TAKE THIS CAR FOR THIS SAID AMOUNT WITH LESS WARRANTY OR LEAVE!" well thats the choice they made. The city made the last and final thats there right, means nomore Negotiations till state or feds step in, the MTA made that call.

The Longshoreman got locked out unfairly and people all over the country called it a strike. The Company pushed the issue with LAST AND FINAL!

[Warriorbird]

I'm normally a pretty active supporter of unions. The secondary spiralling effects of this on the rest of New York are pretty sick, to be frank. Could nearly the same not have been accomplished in January?

[Rowi]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I'm normally a pretty active supporter of unions. The secondary spiralling effects of this on the rest of New York are pretty sick, to be frank. Could nearly the same not have been accomplished in January?

Not really considering the MTA gave a LAST AND FINAL, you either take what it says or dont. If the MTA would proposed the contract without LAST AND FINAL then yes it prolly could have.

Once a Company goes last and final it is put to the membership to vote, a no vote is a strike vote.

I see Taft/Hartley coming, only because Bush is a Rep. then all these other Demos that are speaking out againest this will back track and the name calling starts, its all BS.

[Skirmisher]

Their workers are well paid...even if ALL of the MTA's earlier demands the average twu worker would still have better benefits than most in the private sector.

Yeah, screw everyone else in NYC. Way to earn that public sympathy.

My brother had to walk 30 blocks to get to work yesterday and will do the same today.

My father cancelled all appointments yesterday and all am appts today.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Rowi
Yea, there will always be someone at your door to take your job.

Luckily, I'm overworked and underpaid, so there isn't a long line.



Thank god for contracts, you work in a office? shit they can replace you in two seconds with cheaper labor, might not always be the same value of work but it gets done.

Yes, I work in an office. No, I don't have a contract. I don't lose my job to someone who will do it cheaper because I have the necessary education, and I'm damn good at my job.


the MTA has money in the bank, end of story! believe otherwise you a donkey following the carrot like most in this country.

I have money in the bank, too. However, if I'm spending more than I'm making, I'm eventually going to be in trouble. The goal should not be to suck them dry of every penny they have, it should be to produce a viable, ongoing concern so that you don't lose your job one day when they have to shut the doors since they don't have the cash to make payroll.



When someone comes to you to sell you a car that you have to drive over the next 5 years and says "HEY TAKE THIS CAR FOR THIS SAID AMOUNT WITH LESS WARRANTY OR LEAVE!" well thats the choice they made.

There are lots of cars in this country my friend. If I didn't like the deal, you can bet your ass I'd leave. If it meant I had to drive a POS for a month or two while I searched for my dream car, so be it.


The city made the last and final thats there right, means nomore Negotiations till state or feds step in, the MTA made that call.

And, they are striking illegally. If they union decided that the transit authority was not bargaining in good faith, they could have gone to court. Instead, they decided to attempt to shut down the city.


The Longshoreman got locked out unfairly and people all over the country called it a strike. The Company pushed the issue with LAST AND FINAL!

Dock workers are on strike, too?

Jorddyn

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I'm normally a pretty active supporter of unions. The secondary spiralling effects of this on the rest of New York are pretty sick, to be frank. Could nearly the same not have been accomplished in January?

Sure..but the financial blackmail would not have been so strong.

Yeah...loved the union members saying they were doing this for other new yorkers too.

Thats just so laughable it's almost beyond words.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Rowi
Once a Company goes last and final it is put to the membership to vote, a no vote is a strike vote.


Or, it could be a "let's take them to court and not attempt to shut down the entire city just to get them to meet our demands" vote.

The only reason to not take the Transit Authority to court first would be if the union knew the Transit Authority was being reasonable in their negotiations, and the union had no hopes of winning a lawsuit. Hmm.

Jorddyn, just sayin'

[Skirmisher]

okay can someone explain why the Union vehemntly refuses to go along with binding arbitration?

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
okay can someone explain why the Union vehemntly refuses to go along with binding arbitration?

Because they deserve to not pay any health insurance, 8% raises every year, and to be able to retire at 50 with full pensions, just like everyone else in this country?

Er... wait...

They're doing it for the little man!

Jorddyn

[Fission]

Just baffling how these high-paid full-benefit people continue to feel the need to strike because they're not getting enough.

Airline and aerospace workers earning 6 figures a year with benefits, they cry they don't get paid enough. Bus drivers with dialed-in raises, healthcare and pensions, not enough for them either.

I would pay good money myself to see even one of these overpaid bastards go into a halfway house or homeless shelter and make their case to all the unfortunates there.

[Atlanteax]

Greedy (and Lazy) Union members

= downfall of Society

See NYC for example. :yes:

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Greedy (and Lazy) Union members

= downfall of Society

See NYC for example. :yes:

I don't see it as the downfall of society, but it is definitely contributing to the demise of unions and the companies which they work for.

Jorddyn

[Rowi]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Greedy (and Lazy) Union members

= downfall of Society

See NYC for example. :yes:


I wont even speak of this commentment other then, have fun working for 8.50 an hour with a 4 year degree in 20 years.

TWU International President Michael T. O'Brien Issued the Following Statement Regarding the New York City Transit Strike.
"TWU (International) hereby notifies all members of Local 100 of their obligation under the December 13, 2005 preliminary injunctions and the December 20, 2005 temporary restraining orders issued by the New York Supreme Court to cease any and all strike or strike-related activities and to report to work at their regularly assigned work hours and work locations.
"As has been reported in several media outlets, I personally spoke before the Local 100 Executive Board when it met on the morning of Dec. 20, and told them that I would not approve this strike. I told them that the only road to contract victory for the membership was not by strike but continued negotiation. I continue to believe this. It should not be construed in any way that my refusal to sanction this strike lessens my resolve to secure the best possible contract for this membership."
"I stand ready to assist the Local leadership in returning to the table."

I dont agree with what the TWU 100 is doing I just saying they did this to show the MTA that they will, atleast I feel this to be true. I hope they get back to the table and to work...........GL NYC glad I live in Long Beach!


J the ILWU got locked out 2 years ago by the PMA.

[Gan]

Just saw on the news this morning that the police are at all intersections to major arteries leading into Manhattan. Their goal is to refuse any vehicle heading into Manhattan that does not have at least 4 people per car. So strangers are being forced to be friendly to others and load up (car-share) in order to take their cars downtown.

OH THE HORRORZ!!! New Yorkers being forced to be social and friendly. Whats next? A woman in the White House??? Ice water deliveries in Hell?

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Look what they've done! Making me sound like a Republican darnit... :(

a tad off topic but heh, I hate party lines. No dem is ever 100 percent dem and same for republicans. If people would stop picking party sides and just do what they feel is right I'd be happier.

You don't 'sound' like a republican, you sound like someone who has stated an educated valid opinion. Kudos for not siding one way just to be with a party.

[Skirmisher]

Oh sure...be all logical why don't you.
:bleh:

[TheEschaton]

Trent Lott is pretty damn Republican. Maybe he has a gay daughter hidden away somewhere, that's the only thing that makes Cheney not 100% Republican.

As for this strike issue - I don't know anything about labor law. So I have no idea. I've always supported the right to a living wage, and the right to protest your working conditions...

...but this seems kind of ridiculous.

You don't need a college degree to get this job, right? So, a high school diploma can earn you 55 grand a year, with scheduled raises (regardless of performance?), free health care, and a PENSION AT FIFTY FIVE?

My friend graduated from NYU, and he can't find that good a deal in NYC. He works ina coffee shop.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Rowi
I wont even speak of this commentment other then, have fun working for 8.50 an hour with a 4 year degree in 20 years.


Nice retort. Rather sad that an educated person can't get a decent wage, while someone who doesn't have a degree, makes over $50k a year with pension and benefits and still complains.

Buddy, you people need to recheck your priorities when you rub it in that you make it better for being uneducated.

[Skirmisher]

LACK OF EDUCATION FTW!!!111

[Gan]

Any credibility that unions have is being damaged beyond compare with this fiasco.

Being a non-supporter of unions for the pass through costs it adds onto the marketplace I am looking forward to the backlash that this will receive from john q public.

I do feel sorry for those in NYC who are being affected by this whole ordeal.

[nocturnix]

Just found out 60 seconds ago my boss's wife just crashed their car on the way home from dropping him off for work.

Now he doesnt have a way to get home, which is in long island.

Suppose he could hitch-hike. Ugh.

It's pretty fucking nutty around here with the strike.

[Edited on 12-22-2005 by nocturnix]

[Rowi]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Rowi
I wont even speak of this commentment other then, have fun working for 8.50 an hour with a 4 year degree in 20 years.


Nice retort. Rather sad that an educated person can't get a decent wage, while someone who doesn't have a degree, makes over $50k a year with pension and benefits and still complains.

Buddy, you people need to recheck your priorities when you rub it in that you make it better for being uneducated.

Really? I think that the system is broke here......if uneducated people are making more then people with degrees?? hmm, maybe you should bring your wage up? nah why do that lets bring the other wage down!! Now frankly thats stupid!!

It isnt about education cause most folks that have em, dont have the common sense of a field rat! I went to High School and finished, I have people that work around me that never even went to High School!.

The NYC TWA workers!? Ha they dont make shit compared to longshoreman, some of these folks make 100,000 a year with full benefits and no more then a 7th grade education, why dont you have this job?? why? Do you lack the education to work this job? NO! hmm, do you lack the common sense? hmm, MAYBE! since you bitch about it and do nothing about it.

If I go to work and decide not to unload ships, the whole country shuts down!

When you go to work and decide not to work, well, your keyboard gets cold and lonely!! SKILLS MAKE THE WAGE! Cause it takes years to get to my skill level of working a 300 foot tall crane and hammerheads!

So heres an idea, Move to the coast east or west.......throw away your degree, join a union, and get some skills to make a wage.....I mean you need a license to work some equipment so with your education you prolly could pass the written part with ease.


BTW.....Merry X-Mas

[nocturnix]

So heres an idea, Move to the coast east or west.......throw away your degree, join a union, and get some skills to make a wage.....

Damn why didnt I think of this!?

Education iz for stoopid peeple!1!one!!!1

[CrystalTears]

U JOB R NOT IMPORTANT! I R UNION. I R BETTER THEN U. I R LOAD SHIPS. U JOIN UNION. I R SAY "JOIN" WHEN NOT KNOW ANSWER. Thanks Dave Jr. (And thank you Wezas for having a guide.)

I'd rather do this :banghead: than rationalize anymore with you. Happy Chrismahannahkwanzika.

[Edited on 12/22/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Happy Chrismahannahkwanzika.


Don't forget Festivus.

http://www.festivus.8k.com/index_files/image008.gif

[nocturnix]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Happy Chrismahannahkwanzika.


Don't forget Festivus.

http://www.festivus.8k.com/index_files/image008.gif

HAHAHAH, lol that brought a smile to my face.

I'm thinking about converting over to Festivus.

[Gan]

I remember the longshoreman strike on the west coast back in 2003 I think it was. It made purchasing electronics from the east difficult. It did not shut down the economy or society though.

[Rowi]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Ah yes, the "my work is more important than yours is" schtick. That somehow the country can't run without you and the job can't be done by anyone else other than you. Mmkay.

U JOB R NOT IMPORTANT! I R LOAD SHIPS! Thanks Dave Jr.

I'd rather do this :banghead: than rationalize anymore with you. Happy Chrismahannahkwanzika.

[Edited on 12/22/2005 by CrystalTears]


Shouldnt be hard to do since your desk it right next to a wall, just watch out for the Motivational pictures, k?


Some estimates predict it may take as long as six weeks to clear the backlog of goods, and say the lockout may have cost the fragile U.S. economy $2 billion each day.

[Rowi]

Originally posted by Ganalon
I remember the longshoreman strike on the west coast back in 2003 I think it was. It made purchasing electronics from the east difficult. It did not shut down the economy or society though.


Wasnt a strike, was a lockout brother G, and it only lasted 10 days...........imagine a month +

[CrystalTears]

At least quote my edited post. I shrunk it down for you uneducated folk. :P

Seriously, don't presume that anyone's job is less important than yours. Most, if not all, jobs are important in one way or another.

Hope you don't drive a car. I could totally fuck your registration up. :moon2:

[Wezas]

I'm sorry, when did this thread turn into Blue Collar vs. White Collar?

I'm pretty sure most everyone in NYC (blue or white) is pissed off by the strike. Ragging on people here because they have desk jobs is slightly retarded.

And I would be one of the ones with a desk job, >$50k/year, and nothing but a high school diploma.

Work experience is sometimes worth more then a piece of paper that said you stayed awake in most of your classes.

[Fission]

Some estimates predict it may take as long as six weeks to clear the backlog of goods, and say the lockout may have cost the fragile U.S. economy $2 billion each day.

So... you're in effect bragging about how much more you could fuck up our economy? Union mentality FTL.

[Some Rogue]

Originally posted by Fission

Some estimates predict it may take as long as six weeks to clear the backlog of goods, and say the lockout may have cost the fragile U.S. economy $2 billion each day.

So... you're in effect bragging about how much more you could fuck up our economy? Union mentality FTL.

No kidding, it almost amounts to legalized extortion. Oh, you don't wanna give us another raise, well we'll walk out and cost you tons of money.

[Rowi]

Originally posted by Fission

Some estimates predict it may take as long as six weeks to clear the backlog of goods, and say the lockout may have cost the fragile U.S. economy $2 billion each day.

So... you're in effect bragging about how much more you could fuck up our economy? Union mentality FTL.

No thats the sad part!

[nocturnix]

Strike is "over"...

http://ny1.com/ny1/NY1ToGo/Story/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=55803

Woot woot!

[Wezas]

In other news, I hate nocturnix for beating me to the punch by about 10 seconds.

[Edited on 12-22-2005 by Wezas]

[nocturnix]

pwnt. :P

[DeV]

I bet Taxi drivers in NYC are :(.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by DeV
I bet Taxi drivers in NYC are :(.

<insert humorous yet racist taxi driver joke here>

[nocturnix]

I dont think they were that happy to begin with...

The rate system was changed from a time-based system to a zone based system.

In other words it would cost, say $20 to get from zone a to zone b. So the cab drivers could fill their cabs, but the amount of time it would take them to get from a to b might and probably was less than if they were charging hourly. On top of that, shit is FUCKING CRAZY on the roads. People are pissed off that they have to sit in traffic for hours and hours and so theres roadrage, lots of honking...the traffic hardly moves, and people clog the streets.

All that, and I would be willing to bet 99% of all cab drivers you ask would say theyre happy the strike is over.

[DeV]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/20/news/economy/transit_taxis_strike/?eref=yahoo

[Gan]

Originally posted by Rowi

Originally posted by Ganalon
I remember the longshoreman strike on the west coast back in 2003 I think it was. It made purchasing electronics from the east difficult. It did not shut down the economy or society though.

Wasnt a strike, was a lockout brother G, and it only lasted 10 days...........imagine a month +

Yea, I wasnt sure what exactly happened since my memory is foggy on it. 10 days? Thought it was longer than that, or did it seem like it was longer?

I remember I was trying to buy a large color laser printer from CDW and was pwnt by the inability to have it shipped because of the lockout/strike. :(


:lol:
My bad. Doing 3 things at once is taxing on my noodlez.

[Edited on 12-22-2005 by Ganalon]

[Wezas]

Ganalon's quoting hurts my head.

Make it stop, mommy!

[Trinitis]

Hrm.

I'm working for a fortune 500 company, making $9.50 / hour (soon to be 11.50 once Jan 1 rolls around) with full bens and I got the job based completely on me, and not my education. :shrug:

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Trinitis
Hrm.

I'm working for a fortune 500 company, making $9.50 / hour (soon to be 11.50 once Jan 1 rolls around) with full bens and I got the job based completely on me, and not my education. :shrug:

A fortune 500 company pays their janitors more than 9.50 to start.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Xyelin

A fortune 500 company pays their janitors more than 9.50 to start.

This one does not. :)

They pride themselves in keeping internal costs down so that the savings are passed to customers. Thus, My desk is a door-desk. Just like everyone else in the company, including the CEO.

[Tsa`ah]

First off ...

OSHA, the EPA, and any other tax funded organization meant to protect beyond what a police force is qualified to do is pretty much a joke.

They're in the business of self perpetuation and really have no interest in protection of anything.


Originally posted by CrystalTears
Nice retort. Rather sad that an educated person can't get a decent wage, while someone who doesn't have a degree, makes over $50k a year with pension and benefits and still complains.

Buddy, you people need to recheck your priorities when you rub it in that you make it better for being uneducated.

While I think this strike borders on ridiculous (meaning both sides are doing some major fucking up), wages based on education are really what is bringing this country down.

There is absolutely no reason why the people that bust their collective asses for 10 hours a day hauling away your trash, cleaning your streets, cleaning your bathrooms, preparing your breakfast/lunch/dinner, making and washing your clothes, and toiling away in light industrial production should make such a low wage.

Just because some people are able to get an education beyond the mandatory does not make them qualified for many of the positions they hold. A degree should NEVER guarantee you a salary, your performance should.

If NYC transit workers are able to make 50k a year with a GED ... good on them. This strike, no matter how petty, demonstrates how a bus driver in NYC is infinitely more valuable to the local economy than a guy with a BA in basket weaving who was able to land a 65k job hugging a water cooler while fucking over (both directly and indirectly) 100 people below him that are still more qualified through experience.

What everyone, involved on either end of this strike or not, fails to realize is what happens when you force in 12 years to the pension requirement. It creates a hard line of division between existing employees and new hires. Hard division lines create tension and create a revolving door.

Instead of dumping the budget issues on the union, perhaps they could have raised fairs in small increments in the same manner the USPS does with stamps. Perhaps instead of just forcing a huge gap in pension requirements they could have increased that requirement by 2 years each year for the next 6.

Instead of working with the union, they put the union's back against the wall and now they have a strike.

Personally I think it was intentional. What better way to get rid of a union and cut both wages and benefits than to force a strike that has legal ramifications.

They get rid of the union, they save a shit ton of money and in the process of all of this, they are able to bring in a privatized system complete with bloated management.

[Edited on 12-23-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah


If NYC transit workers are able to make 50k a year with a GED ... good on them. This strike, no matter how petty, demonstrates how a bus driver in NYC is infinitely more valuable to the local economy than a guy with a BA in basket weaving who was able to land a 65k job hugging a water cooler while fucking over (both directly and indirectly) 100 people below him that are still more qualified through experience.
[Edited on 12-23-2005 by Tsa`ah]

Tsa'ah I love you but have to disagree with you on that point.

That bus driver on his own is just as easy to replace or possibly even moreso than the management worker used in the stated example.

In this case, as in all strikes, what made the impact is that they ALL suddenly stopped working at once.

Now some union members have tried to say that even though there are only thirty some odd thousand of them, the fact that they could have this impact shows how vital they are to the city.

The fact of the matter is though that it is not as if EVERY single one of them could not be replaced, or that the MTA could hire twice as many workers. Sure both of those could happen but it would take time is all.

It is not as if there is some incredibly limited pool of workers that is all tapped out and no one could be found to fill these positions.

Hell if any entire group of workers went on a work stoppage it creates havok. That is the society we live in. It is all interdependent.

Imagine if ALL of the nurses in the city went on strike....not one hospital or a group of hospitals, but every single one...now that still doesnt quite equal the scope of this strike as it was not just the drivers....or just the maintanence workers or the engineers but all of them so lets add all the doctors too, and how about all EMT's and paramedics, nurses aides and all ultrasound and radiology techs too. Now..you can't go saying "but this is an emergency!." Did the TWU give a crap about anyone elses emergencies during this time and say something like .."Hrm...alright well run one bus in such and such an area but ONLY for emergencies.."? Of course not. So in this example we will also say that all medical care, even emergencies must find help somewhere outside the city. And remember that they are doing this to help the little guy and ensure they get the proper care they deserve! Just like the TWU said.

Thats the kind of scope we are talking about here and why it had the impact it did.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
That bus driver on his own is just as easy to replace or possibly even moreso than the management worker used in the stated example.

I would strongly disagree with that. Considering the state of management and how bloated it is across the board, the average person in management is easier to replace than a bus driver. All it really takes to get entry level management is a degree from anywhere in anything. BA in basket weaving? Great, you're going to take on benefit management for this division. I'm willing to bet there are very few posters on this board that could handle driving a bus in NYC, let alone a moderately populated smaller city.


In this case, as in all strikes, what made the impact is that they ALL suddenly stopped working at once.

Now some union members have tried to say that even though there are only thirty some odd thousand of them, the fact that they could have this impact shows how vital they are to the city.

And you're saying they are not? While it's not genetic or medical research, the value they bring to the city is so very under rated.

I'm one of the first to bitch about people that don't really give a shit and just punch a time clock, but this mentality has always confused me. I'm willing to bet no one in NYC realized how vital these people are until now. I'm also willing to bet that most people think they're over paid and asking for too much. I can agree with some of that as I think making 50k driving a bus and retiring in your 50's is a pretty sweet deal. However, these are the people that deliver shoppers, tourists, and employees to their destinations day in and day out. These are the people that must deal with the people that everyone else can walk around and ignore. Until you do the job, you can't possibly say they're easily replaced and asking for too much.


The fact of the matter is though that it is not as if EVERY single one of them could not be replaced, or that the MTA could hire twice as many workers. Sure both of those could happen but it would take time is all.

When you replace at such a large scale, standards (no matter how low) are sacrificed. The end product is, and will always be, sub standard.

How do people in NYC feel about their car insurance premiums? Imagine how they will feel once those get doubled because every bus driver was replaced and automotive damage becomes part of the learning curve.

Have an unforgiving employer? Imagine losing your job even though you left early enough because of a learning curve.

Replacing one driver is no big deal, sure, replacing the entire force .... good luck. Whether or not I agree with the strike is of no consequence. That the transit workers said "no" in one voice should tell you that there is probably more going on than what everyone is hearing about. There's always something more to situations like this.


It is not as if there is some incredibly limited pool of workers that is all tapped out and no one could be found to fill these positions.

I'll not disagree with that, but you're underestimating the task of doing so, and you're underestimating the value of the employees.


Hell if any entire group of workers went on a work stoppage it creates havok. That is the society we live in. It is all interdependent.

To an extent. It is really dependant on the area and industry. Let's look at it this way, would you rather see a production plant shut down and production jobs sent to Canada and Mexico, or would you rather see the cut backs go where they're needed most ... upper and middle management?


Imagine if ALL of the nurses in the city went on strike....not one hospital or a group of hospitals, but every single one...now that still doesnt quite equal the scope of this strike as it was not just the drivers....or just the maintanence workers or the engineers but all of them so lets add all the doctors too, and how about all EMT's and paramedics, nurses aides and all ultrasound and radiology techs too. Now..you can't go saying "but this is an emergency!." Did the TWU give a crap about anyone elses emergencies during this time and say something like .."Hrm...alright well run one bus in such and such an area but ONLY for emergencies.."? Of course not. So in this example we will also say that all medical care, even emergencies must find help somewhere outside the city. And remember that they are doing this to help the little guy and ensure they get the proper care they deserve! Just like the TWU said.

Well, considering the discrepancies in the pay levels of the medical professions ... you could see that in the coming years.

That only illustrates my point even more. I don't believe in holding an entire city by the short and curlies, but I do believe in giving people their due. RNAs and RNBs are being replaced by LPNs and CNAs across the board. Many RNs are being forced to either take huge cuts in pay (pay that was already too low for what they do), find work as scabs, scavenge for private practice positions, or change fields all together.

We're apt to empathize with a medical professional because their value is obvious. We don't take them for granted on the same level. They're educated ... the piece of paper says so.

You know you couldn't do their job (unless you're already a medical professional). A municipal worker though ... anyone can do their job. It only takes a GED to get that job.

When you give in to that logic, you give the go ahead nod to low pay, poor to non-existing benefits, and social inequality over a piece of paper that some how means you're more valuable as a person.

Chances are that the transit workers will be very hated if this strike ever comes to an end ... but I can promise you that an entire nation will see that they're just as valuable to society as a doctor or nurse. Maybe more valuable than a cooler hugger.


Thats the kind of scope we are talking about here and why it had the impact it did.

I'm not taking a right or wrong stance here. I personally think the strike is ridiculous. I do believe the strike is more of a great equalizer than the sub-way could ever be though. I also think this is more of a tactic to privatize the transit system.

In any case ... there is a pretty good chance that there is more going on between the city and union than John Q is being told about.

[Caiylania]

<Insert Tsa'ah's long post here.>

I agree.

[Skirmisher]

No disagreeing with me damnit!

[Caiylania]

Then just admit you are wrong hehehehehe

[CrystalTears]

I guess it's just distressing to me that it's almost being encouraged to not bother with a degree when you can make a decent wage without it.

I do believe that people who have the jobs no one would really want should make more, but I don't feel that it entitles them to demand and expect more.

If I wasn't happy with my current job or career status, I was advised to change jobs or go to school for another career. I think this is just setting a bad example.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
and social inequality over a piece of paper that some how means you're more valuable as a person. Educated people get paid more because it costs money and time to become educated. To pay them the same as the uneducated would be saying that the educated person is worth less. The false premise in your argument is that obtaining a degree requires nothing more than trivial effort.

If worker A busts his hump and/or puts in overtime, certainly he should be paid/promoted more than worker B who puts in the bare minimum, wouldn't you agree?

[Skirmisher]

I could learn to drive a bus in what....a week? maybe two or three tops?

Lets have some shmoe with oh heck, lets give them 6 full months of training and have them be your Primary Care Physician.

No?

Gee why not?

Well, no they haven't completed their schooling yet, but it's only a piece of paper how important could it really be?

[Caiylania]

My take on that view was not that doctors, lawyers, etc do not deserve the pay they have, or respect for their accomplishments, but that those that make something of themselves even without a degree deserve respect as well and contribute just as much to society in different ways.

[Alfster]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
and social inequality over a piece of paper that some how means you're more valuable as a person. Educated people get paid more because it costs money and time to become educated. To pay them the same as the uneducated would be saying that the educated person is worth less. The false premise in your argument is that obtaining a degree requires nothing more than trivial effort.

If worker A busts his hump and/or puts in overtime, certainly he should be paid/promoted more than worker B who puts in the bare minimum, wouldn't you agree?

Merely having a degree does not make someone "educated".

[Latrinsorm]

That is certainly true. It is also true that less than 100% of degree-holders are uneducated, therefore disregarding and denigrating them as a group is fallacious.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I guess it's just distressing to me that it's almost being encouraged to not bother with a degree when you can make a decent wage without it.

I'm all for promoting voluntary education beyond a simple HS diploma or GED. Our current systems hinder that avenue more than promote it however.


I do believe that people who have the jobs no one would really want should make more, but I don't feel that it entitles them to demand and expect more.

When they don't demand and expect they get the shaft.

Let's really get to the base of any successful business ... it's base line labor.

Why exactly is it that the employees that drive any business are paid the least in almost every instance? Why are the people with a piece of paper proclaiming them to be "educated" granted more freedom with their time and more pay to boot?


If I wasn't happy with my current job or career status, I was advised to change jobs or go to school for another career. I think this is just setting a bad example.

I don't think it's a bad example, I think it servers notice to many industries. That notice says your base line, your low level employees, despite how pitiful their pay, are more of a necessity than your management would like to admit.


Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Educated people get paid more because it costs money and time to become educated. To pay them the same as the uneducated would be saying that the educated person is worth less.

Were that even remotely true, the disparity between the two teirs of pay would amount to about 2 bucks an hour over the career of either type of employee.

A diploma bearing individual, in my eyes, needs to do something the lower rung employee has already done ... prove their worth. McDonald's, GM, any industry that relies on physical labor, builds success on the shoulders of that physical labor ... yet at the same time will reward people allergic to sweating by paying them more, allowing fewer time constraints, and often better benefits.


The false premise in your argument is that obtaining a degree requires nothing more than trivial effort.

Often it does, much more than many degree bearing individuals like to admitt. Agree or not, a degree in this society has been severely devalued over the past few decades. Curriculums and admitting standards have been dumbed down gradually making it fairly easy for anyone with the cash to get in and graduate so long as they meet the lowest of standards.

This is not to say that everyone with a degree has been on cruise control throughout their collegiate career, but rather to say that a BA/S today means about as much as a HS diploma 30 years ago. It is far more difficult to get into a graduate program than it is to get into a 4 year university.


If worker A busts his hump and/or puts in overtime, certainly he should be paid/promoted more than worker B who puts in the bare minimum, wouldn't you agree?

You've just described management vs labor in most cases. Yet labor doesn't get the raises and promotions ... management does.


Originally posted by Skirmisher
I could learn to drive a bus in what....a week? maybe two or three tops?

Lets have some shmoe with oh heck, lets give them 6 full months of training and have them be your Primary Care Physician.

No?

Gee why not?

Well, no they haven't completed their schooling yet, but it's only a piece of paper how important could it really be?

But now you're comparing the extremes and two completely unrelated industries.

Let's not forget that you're just assuming you can learn to drive a bus in a few weeks and be able to do so in NYC as a transit worker.

A doctor will go through 10+ years of education and internship before earning his/her wings. This is because the human body and all known things to have an affect on the body are so much more complex than driving a bus.

But let's look at your original example of nurses. There are differing levels of nursing based on education. CNA, LPN, RNA, RNB, RNM, and nurse practitioners. Comparing the pre-med curriculum to a nursing curriculum is this in a nutshell ... a pre-med curriculum has a good deal that is meant to expand upon the basic necessities of medicine. A nursing curriculum is pre-med without the fat.

An RNB will begin work probably before graduation and over the course of the next 7 years will have, if he/she is good and dedicated and depending on what field of medicine chosen, an understanding comparable to that of any MD. The nurse will continue to treat and interact with patients more so than the MD, yet the MD will continue to make 4-10x what the nurse makes.

You also have to look at how pay is scaled and realize that it is pretty exclusive to the medical professions. This isn't the early 20th century where any MD could move into a small town, or around the block in a larger city. This is the new millennium and the medical industry is no longer ran by practitioners. It is ran by insurance companies and conglomerates of organizations absorbed into larger intities over the decades.

Practitioners at one time could set their income based on their patients. Practitioners now are faced with 3 options.

1. Attempt to move into a private practice and hope my patients pay me or their insurance companies don't deny everything I submit.

2. Join a provider group and hope they don't dump an unmanageable case load on me and allow me to provide the care I deem best.

3. Make a buck through promoting crap products as a MD, make a buck by getting into the vanity business.

Nurses don't have any of those options.

Then again, you're comparing extremes as I've pointed out.

A better analogy would have been the average factory worker and the 50 people that manage the work force of 200, and the 70 people above them, and the 30 above them ... all the way to the board.

Does the average factory worker deserve a pay schedule on par with the average person in management? To me, they deserve more. They one half of the driving force of any business as it is.


Originally posted by Latrinsorm
That is certainly true. It is also true that less than 100% of degree-holders are uneducated, therefore disregarding and denigrating them as a group is fallacious.

Your statement doesn't make sense. Either 100% of degree holders are educated in your eyes, or a very small percentage are carrying "token" degrees.

I'm more apt to believe that a group of MBAs are more valuable, in an abstract sense, than a group of BAs.

Degrees denote that one fulfilled the very basic requirements of an educational institution, nothing more. They do not denote intelligence, capability, drive, desire, competence, leadership, being a team player ... they only denote that the person who's name is attached was able to fulfill the basic requirement of the curriculum.

It's just unfortunate that most people are in jobs that have nothing to do with the curriculum their degree is based on.

It's not so simple as to say my statement is false as you disregard every scenario to present your premise. This isn't something new for you as you always pick at semantics and disregard anything that could possibly negate your statements.

To the topic at hand, or rather the topic. The general consensus seems to be that people with degrees deserve more, qualified or not, simply because they took the time to attend college. Yet the person who was either unable to attend voluntary education or chose to enter the work force, the person who worked 40 hours and more a week, the person who entered adult reality 4 or more years before the student, the person who didn't party it up, go student events, lounge around studying ... but jumped into adult reality is considered the lesser.

Do people honestly believe college was harder than 9-5, OT, and incompetent bosses?

Get fucking real already. The easiest time of my life was either at home, or in college; and my major wasn't basket weaving or some other fluff that has no value other than self enlightenment.

A degree doesn't mean you're worth more in any stretch, certainly not worth more than a bus driver in NYC who delivers millions to their work and others who will spend cash driving the economy. Why should you get paid more sitting in a cubical or behind a desk wondering where you're going to have lunch while there are people below you busting their ass and their health, thus facilitating the "need" for your professional existence?

[Edited on 12-24-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[CrystalTears]

OMG I disagree with so many things that I just don't have the time to go point by point with you. We'll just agree to disagree.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
It's not so simple as to say my statement is false as you disregard every scenario to present your premise.So you shit all over anyone with a degree, and I'm the unreasonable one. Got it.
Your statement doesn't make sense.The only way for your "degree = horse puckey" argument to hang together would be if 100% of degree-holders were uneducated. It is not the case that 100% of degree-holders are uneducated. Your philosophy is flawed.
disregard anything that could possibly negate your statements. No see anyone that disagrees with my position obviously has an anti-degree agenda and anyone who agrees with it is unbiased. It's just like you and the OT, weird coincidence huh?
The general consensus seems to be that people with degrees deserve more, qualified or not, simply because they took the time to attend college.You're making a bizarre equivalence between pay and a person's worth. The bottom line is it costs more to go to college than to not go to college, even with a full scholarship. Given that people are generally paid in money, if there were no financial advantages to going through college, there would be less of a reason to become educated.