View Full Version : Religious Intolerance
Ravenstorm
10-13-2003, 01:09 AM
A true display of good Christian morals. Or so he'd have you believe. Disgusting.
http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2003/10/03/news/casper/f060e8d5f0ddf401c07f72e2617c79c6.txt
Raven
JustMe
10-13-2003, 02:20 AM
There is so much I could say about that story that I don't even know where to start.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 06:16 AM
As I have said; religion is the fundamental reason we have war and misery on this planet. Fucking mindless sheep.
Miss X
10-13-2003, 06:53 AM
Wow, there was me thinking Christianity teaches tolerance.
I was watching a documentary on the BBC last night about how the church in some African countries told an eight year old girl who got pregnant by her father, through child abuse that she would go to hell if she had an abortion.
Her mother paid for an underground illegal abortion and the family were ostracised from the church. I just couldn’t believe it, the girl would probably have died if she had attempted to carry a baby to full term because she was eight, and her body obviously couldn’t take it. Ugh, makes me sick.
Vx
Weedmage Princess
10-13-2003, 07:42 AM
Wow. I don't know what to say to that.
But Stray, I really resent your comment. As someone who is fairly religious, (I'm not in church every Sunday or anything of the sort, but I do believe in God and try to live my life as best I can in accordance with Christianity as I was taught) let me be the first to tell you that not everyone who practices religion is like that guy. That's a prejudicial statement you made....in many ways, along the lines of what someone like that twisted reverend would say.
That man, though calling himself a man of God, isn't a man of God..not in my eyes. You can disagree with a person's lifestyle, think it's wrong and even refer to quotes from the Bible, be it in context or not...however one thing I learned is that as humans, we're all equal, supposed to love and treat one another as such and are NOT in place to pass judgement on one another. Learned that when I was little, via religion. That's also in the Bible, and clearly something that guy overlooked.
One mans view or one parishes view of what the bible says is much different than others you show your lack of toleration by your comment. The existence of God can not be disproved. A perfect example of this is say Aristotle. We have less prove of his living than we have of Jesus walking the earth. The Enlightenment of the late 17th and early 18th centuries lead to both deism (mechanical god that created then stepped back and let natural laws control the universe) and atheism (the disbelief in a god of any kind). Let us just use an example of genesis. God created the universe. The popular theory in today’s world is the “big bang.” The problem with this theory is where all the hydrogen came from to create this explosion. The big bag happened. But how it came to be no scientist could theorize, except to say that something somehow created it…. A god perhaps?
What this for lack of a better way to describe idiot is doing is for attention. I wonder how many people attend his church 10 maybe 15? He is a small voice in the way most Christians believe or worship.
Betheny
10-13-2003, 08:38 AM
Those that pervert a religion should not condemn the others that practice it.
To condemn all Christians or even Baptists as being anything like this guy, would be a lot like condemning all Muslims as being like Osama bin Laden. And that's just not right, or true.
Faith is in yourself. Not in who preaches to you. You either have it, or you don't.
Artha
10-13-2003, 08:48 AM
Wow...the amount of uh...intollerance in this thread surprises me.
i remember halloween
10-13-2003, 12:07 PM
haha thats awesome.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 12:09 PM
Both World Wars were due to religious causes.
So was september 11th.
In fact, very few wars and conflicts aren't.
Not to mention out-dated and barbaric the bible is. Living to the bible, would make you opposed to blacks, gays among other minorities. I can't even be bothered to get into the inconsistences of the Bible, or how much shit it has caused in history. You are free to blindy follow whatever indoctrination you wish.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 12:10 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, I do like some aspects of religion. I like the communal aspect, I like the strength of faifth religion can instill in people.
But spirituality and religion are different. I'd like to practice Zen. Doesn't mean I have to be a buddhist.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 12:50 PM
Personally, I have no religion at all. As I stated once in my human behavior class, to me religion is something we needed when we lacked an explanation. In ancient times, they created gods for everything they couldn't understand, then we created a new God to help guide us because we were unable to guide ourselves. I believe we no longer need one, we have science to help us understand so in my opinion, religion is very outdated and unnecessary. Others still need it to lead them.
Artha
10-13-2003, 12:55 PM
To me, the ones without religion are the weak ones.
You lack faith, you're weak.
Tendarian
10-13-2003, 12:57 PM
Id like to hear Kranars view point on this as his views are usually guided by logic but i think he is also religious not? And faith isnt very logical with no proof.
Im pretty agnostic i believe in somethin just dont know what. I think the extreme people on anything pervert what should be a good thing into something terrible.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 12:57 PM
I do not lack faith. I have faith in myself and in mankind and our ability to survive and to go on. I don't put my faith in a mystical being that exists only in my thoughts.
imported_Kranar
10-13-2003, 12:58 PM
<< Both World Wars were due to religious causes. >>
Neither of the World Wars came about from religion. World War I was simply a chain of events that started with the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand by a Serbian secret society. Then Austria-Hungry declared war on Serbia then Russia joined in because of a treaty to defend Serbia, then Germany joined in to defend Austria-Hungry, then other countries had to get dragged into it because of treaties. Religion is NO WHERE to be found.
World War II had similar circumstances... and apart from that you have the Vietnam War, Korean War, Gulf War, the Napoleanic Wars, the Revolutionary Wars.
Wars are rarely ever even because of religion, it's just some greedy guy or some pissed off guy decides he wants to pillage another nation or entity so he goes in, and in order to get the support of a vast number of people he'll throw in the Bible or throw in a flag declaring it to be patriotic or some other icon that makes people feel warm, fuzzy and proud to fight.
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Kranar]
Skirmisher
10-13-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Both World Wars were due to religious causes.
So was september 11th.
In fact, very few wars and conflicts aren't.
I also am no longer a practicing member of any organized religion and have my own issues with them.
That being said, I don't think it is fair to place all the blame for so many wars squarely on religion.
Religion is used and twisted by some sick few into serving the purpose they desire. After finding one small way to twist the words of the Koran/Bible/Torah or whichever book applies, those sickos find those easily led and use them for their own aims.
Most organized religions do tremendous good the vast majority of the time, the problem IMHO is just that in giving over such moral authority to any institution you always run the risk of someone abusing it.
imported_Kranar
10-13-2003, 01:03 PM
Think of it, if you wanted to declare war on another nation and wanted to get the support of millions of people, wouldn't you use religion to give people a cause to fight, or use the flag of your nation to get people proud and patriotic?
That doesn't mean the flag or the religion is the cause of the war. It just means whoever was in charge of the invading army was smart enough to find a powerful symbol that everyone could agree upon and use it to command them.
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Kranar]
Scott
10-13-2003, 01:04 PM
Living to the bible, would make you opposed to blacks, gays among other minorities.
I think you need to read the bible again.
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Leviticus 19:18
You don't not oppose, judge, or hate anyone. God is the one who judges. You admire everyone, even those who don't believe in god.
imported_Kranar
10-13-2003, 01:16 PM
<< Id like to hear Kranars view point on this as his views are usually guided by logic but i think he is also religious not? And faith isnt very logical with no proof. >>
One of the most important mathematical discoveries, ever, is the discovery of the Incompleteness Theorem and the Inconsistency Theorem (more commonly known as the Second Imcompleteness Theorem). They both PROVE that logic, while powerful, is insufficient to capture all truths.
Faith is thus the most fundamental source of truth. Faith in God, faith in no God, whatever it may be, the source of all knowledge ultimately rests with faith, and only faith.
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Kranar]
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 01:36 PM
I won't argue with Bible bashers, as its about as pointless as arguing politics with the brainwashed. I do not lack faifth. I simply do not believe an omnipotent being put me here to do His bidding, nor that he watches me and stuff. I am a child of science. I believe in evolution. I have faifth in that. And tell me this, would sept 11 have happened, if it hadn't have been for religion? Would the crusades? Pelestine and the israeli's? The Spanish wars?
Edaarin
10-13-2003, 01:44 PM
Religion is one of those subjects I try not to discuss unless it's with a close circle of friends. No matter what you say, no matter how long you talk about it, you're not going to sway that other person's opinion, and the only thing that usually comes out of it is two people nearly at each other's throats.
imported_Kranar
10-13-2003, 01:44 PM
I love it when people say they're a child of science, so somehow they're not supposed to believe in God.
The REAL children of science, those who have actually made the most significant of contributions to science, those who actually have significant credibility when they claim they are children of science... they do believe in God. Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Niels Bohr, and whod'ya know... Charles Darwin himself.
Those who devote their lives seeking the origin of the universe, the origin of humankind, they virtually all agree.
Kurili
10-13-2003, 01:45 PM
Problem I think is that some (not all by any means) 'religious people' are forgetting the parts of the bible teaching "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself" and MANY similar. Like Sintik cited.
The whole thing at the beginning of this thread brought to mind the Florida forest fires a few years back.
Jerry Falwell publically stated that the fires were an act of punishment by God for Disney Inc. participating in Gay Pride Week at it's theme parks a month before.
And the sad thing is, there ARE people more than willing to believe mindless drivel like this. The old hate and ignorance, once again.
Acolyte Kurili, almost on a rant
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Kurili]
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 01:48 PM
When I say I believe in Science, I say it because I believe I am not descended from Adam and Eve, who were "born", according to Christian scientists, 12000 years ago. I believe in Evolution. I believe this planet was created over a series of billion years. Not seven days.
[Edited on 13-10-03 by StrayRogue]
Halfsilver
10-13-2003, 01:58 PM
that's sick.
I think it's pretty damned funny that this Phelps guy has been taken as seriously as he has been so far. It's a sad commentary on the state of things that he actually has a "following"
The whole situation is ridiculous. The fact that a city council would really consider letting some group put up a monument like that.
WTF are we coming to?
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Halfsilver]
Ravenstorm
10-13-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Both World Wars were due to religious causes.
Actually, religion really played no factor at all in WWII which is to say that religious conflict was just about non-existant. The Jews were not targetted because of religion but because they were not Hitler's concept of what an Aryan was. They were different. They were also good scapegoats. The death toll of the Holocaust included Romani, homosexuals and just about all other minority groups.
The 'cause' of WWII can be laid more firmly at the feet of the Treaty of Versaille. After WWI, Germany was - to put it mildly - punished harshly. The country was in ruins. The economy in the gutter. The people demoralized and beaten down by the terms of the Treaty. When a charismatic leader showed up with the message 'This is not our fault.' people listened.
By blaming the state of post WWI Germany on everyone not German - and not TRUE German ie Aryan (by Hitler's propoganda) - well, the rest, as they say, is history. So religion played no real role in WWII except in that it labeled people automatically as 'enemies' of the Aryan people. But so did many other factors.
Raven
Edited to add: This is why after WWII, the Axis countries themselves as a whole were not treated harshly. The Allies learned from the previous disaster. (simplified version)
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Ravenstorm]
Artha
10-13-2003, 02:00 PM
I kinda hope he puts it up, just so it can get defaced and destroyed the next night.
Halfsilver
10-13-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
When I say I believe in Science, I say it because I believe I am not descended from Adam and Eve, who were "born", according to Christian scientists, 12000 years ago. I believe in Evolution. I believe this planet was created over a series of million years. Not seven days.
The earth was created over 4.5 billion years.
This debate is old. One can believe in evolution and still believe in god, as well.
I am one of those people who do.
-grays/d
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Halfsilver]
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 02:09 PM
I have no people who believe in God or religion. Just don't fucking shove it in my face.
Edaarin
10-13-2003, 02:39 PM
Have you ever read Inherit the Wind?
And it wasn't 12000 years ago, it was 6000!
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 02:41 PM
You need to see Bill Hick's "Dinosaur" sketch ;)
"Why do all Christian's wear crosses? You'd think when Jesus is reborn that would be the last thing he'd wanna see"
draconis nematoda
10-13-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
You need to see Bill Hick's "Dinosaur" sketch ;)
"Why do all Christian's wear crosses? You'd think when Jesus is reborn that would be the last thing he'd wanna see"
Not all Christians dwell on the cross, or wear it as ornamentation.
You'll never see a cross on the top of any LDS building.
We prefer to place significance on what happened after Christ was killed.
Ray
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 03:32 PM
Why do all christian fundamentalist look de-evolved?
"I believe God created me in a day".
Yeah, it looks like he rushed it.
Tendarian
10-13-2003, 03:34 PM
Im surprised how many people here are religious. Wonder how many different religions we represent here.
Originally posted by Tendarian
Im surprised how many people here are religious. Wonder how many different religions we represent here.
Raised in The Church of Christ. Became an atheist while I was a teenager. When I had my daughter, I have to say that was a spiritual experience. I feel love that strong doesn't end with death. So, I consider myself agnostic. I honestly don't know what happens after death, so I just live my life basically by the golden rule... treat others like I would like them to treat me. I don't label anything. I try not to talk to others about religion because it is a very personal matter to each individual. Who am I to deride someone for what they believe if they derive comfort from it? That's not my place or right.
Vesi
P.S. I do not agree with the person in the original article. Intolerance and hatred hide behind many so called 'noble' institutions.
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Vesi]
Originally posted by Tendarian
Im surprised how many people here are religious. Wonder how many different religions we represent here.
I believe there is something out there, but I don't represent any particular religion.
If I had to call myself anything, I'd be a very, very liberal Christian. I don't read and practice the bible's teaching for any religious means.
Rather I see many of the teachings as a good example as to how someone should live their life, and I think that by doing this, improving one's self, so much more can be accomplished, as compared to going around and thumping the book, informing everyone as to what they're doing wrong.
That's a really long sentence.
Buddhism seems interesting too, but I don't know nearly enough about it's ways to call myself or buddhist or try to lecture anyone about it over a message board.
Anyway, if I could find a Univeral Unitarian church around here, I'd probably go.
Halfsilver
10-13-2003, 04:33 PM
Bhuddism is great.
They believe that all life is connected and that you should treat any form of it with some semblance of respect. Even the lowliest form. It could be your great grandfather's part of the universal conciousness reincarnate. Or something.
I think that if the whole world was Bhuddist, we'd have a lot less problems.
-grays/d (w00t for Bhuddism)
ElvenRangeress
10-13-2003, 04:44 PM
This is a sick sick thing for anyone to do. This is *not* what christian people do, this is what this disgusting person is doing. But he is being what we call ... "holier-than-thou". He believes he is better than this young man, but if he worships God... he would know we are all equal in his eyes. The bible says ... "Do on to others as you would want others to do on to you" "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" "Judge not yet ye' be judged"...
(walks away sighing ... how sick can people really be ...)
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by ElvenRangeress]
Halfsilver
10-13-2003, 04:54 PM
The Bible is written by people, not by some omnipotent being and is therefore not perfect. There are many things in the Bible that contridict each other.
The bible is nothing more than an interesting read. The interest factor stemming from the fact that it is an ancient document. This is just my belief, though.
I believe that there is some higher power, but I don't know that there are any set rules on how to go about respecting that power or if that power even needs respect. I do, however, believe that all life, even the lowliest form, is connected in some way and so should be respected accordingly.
-grays/d (believes in god, in one form or another)
PS. there are just too many unexplainable things, ex. Scientists just discovered that our whole universe could be limited and is in the shape of a dodecahedron (soccerball). If this is true, what is on the outside of our soccer ball? (check out cnn.com)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/10/09/universe.soccer.ball.reut/index.html
Scott
10-13-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Tendarian
Im surprised how many people here are religious. Wonder how many different religions we represent here.
I'm Methodist. Although I go to church maybe 4 times a year. I don't follow the religion blindly, I have my own idea's and beliefs which I follow.
I've read the bible front to back a few times in my life. I hardly call myself religous though. I just believe in God, not in evolution. If people want to believe they came from monkies, go ahead, but I don't.
Ravenstorm
10-13-2003, 05:07 PM
As far as religion goes, I'm a devout agnostic. As the saying goes, 'I'm from Missouri. Show me.' Not that I'm actually from Missouri.
Until I get proof that there is something beyond the mundane and material, I will reserve judgement or even lean towards disbelief but willing to keep an open mind about it.
I personally am against religion in the organized sense and in favor of personal spirituality. Call me a nonpracticing, agnostic with leanings towards being a pagan. After all, what could be a better ethic than 'if it doesn't hurt anyone, have fun' (An it harm none, do what you will). Sounds good to me.
What a pity Bush and the religious fanatics don't follow it and continue to promote their bigotry in the form of their 'Marriage Protection Week' bullshit. And how insulting that it falls on the anniversary of Matthew Shepard's death.
Raven
Parkbandit
10-13-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Artha
To me, the ones without religion are the weak ones.
You lack faith, you're weak.
I see it as directly the opposite.
I'm not here to bash religion.. as I believe they teach us some good moral lessons that may otherwise go by the wayside in today's world.
But, if you have to blame the Devil for things that go wrong in your life and give all the credit to God for the good.. sorry, but you seem to lack self confidence.
It cracks me up everytime I hear a professional athlete say that "This victory wouldn't have been possible without God." Huh? Are you saying God has nothing better to do with his day than to make sure the Marlins beat the Cubs? Or do you mean that God likes your teammates better than the people on the opposing team?
Or when a tragedy happens... "Well, it was God's Will". WHAT? You mean there is this creature that controls your every move and that if he wants to kill you with a mere thought, you are ok with it?
Someone posted something that summarized religion for me pretty well... that we use religion to explain the unexplanable. We need to know why things work the way they do.
Tendarian
10-13-2003, 05:09 PM
I myself am agnostic though i was raised catholic and confirmed. Made a deal with my parents that i would get confirmed but then i could do what i wanted and havent been back to church since.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 05:10 PM
Nice post bandit, I agree plenty.
Tendarian
10-13-2003, 05:12 PM
It cracks me up everytime I hear a professional athlete say that "This victory wouldn't have been possible without God." Huh? Are you saying God has nothing better to do with his day than to make sure the Marlins beat the Cubs? Or do you mean that God likes your teammates better than the people on the opposing team?
I think what they mean is God gave them the talent to be a good baseball athlete or whatever.....
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 05:13 PM
No, their gene's, traning, diet, metabolism and lifestyle gave them the talent/ability.
Tendarian
10-13-2003, 05:15 PM
I agree,i wasnt saying i believe it. I was saying thats why they are thanking who they are thanking in my opinion.
Parkbandit
10-13-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Tendarian
It cracks me up everytime I hear a professional athlete say that "This victory wouldn't have been possible without God." Huh? Are you saying God has nothing better to do with his day than to make sure the Marlins beat the Cubs? Or do you mean that God likes your teammates better than the people on the opposing team?
I think what they mean is God gave them the talent to be a good baseball athlete or whatever.....
So, God loves certain people and hates others? Why would he not give all of us this special "gift"? Why are there only like 1600 NFL football players.. and the rest of us couldn't make the team? My desire is there.. I can't help the fact that God made me a 5' 10" 185 lb guy instead of a 6' 5" 250 pounder.
God hates me... and that makes me sad. :sniffle:
Scott
10-13-2003, 05:20 PM
<<<But, if you have to blame the Devil for things that go wrong in your life and give all the credit to God for the good.. sorry, but you seem to lack self confidence.>>>
Everything people do in life is on their own. I believe God opens up path's for people. When they screw up, it's not anyones fault but their own. When they succeed, it's their doing.
<<<It cracks me up everytime I hear a professional athlete say that "This victory wouldn't have been possible without God." Huh? Are you saying God has nothing better to do with his day than to make sure the Marlins beat the Cubs? Or do you mean that God likes your teammates better than the people on the opposing team?>>>
Umm you aren't understanding the point. You praise god for the oppurtunity and talents that he has given you. Sports are a natural talent.
<<<Or when a tragedy happens... "Well, it was God's Will". WHAT? You mean there is this creature that controls your every move and that if he wants to kill you with a mere thought, you are ok with it?>>>
God doesn't control anything. He gave us free will, it's our fault when something happens. If he was to control us, murders and stealing wouldn't take place.
Tendarian
10-13-2003, 05:23 PM
So, God loves certain people and hates others? Why would he not give all of us this special "gift"? Why are there only like 1600 NFL football players.. and the rest of us couldn't make the team? My desire is there.. I can't help the fact that God made me a 5' 10" 185 lb guy instead of a 6' 5" 250 pounder.
No he gives everyone different talents. Some people are athletes and some are doctors. I doubt he gives the people he loves athletic ability and the ones he hates intelligence.
Scott
10-13-2003, 05:24 PM
<<<So, God loves certain people and hates others? Why would he not give all of us this special "gift"? Why are there only like 1600 NFL football players.. and the rest of us couldn't make the team? My desire is there.. I can't help the fact that God made me a 5' 10" 185 lb guy instead of a 6' 5" 250 pounder.>>>
You do have a special gift, it may or may not be playing football. It might be playing an instument. Maybe it's singing. Everyone is meant for different things, maybe football isn't it for you.
Parkbandit
10-13-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
<<<It cracks me up everytime I hear a professional athlete say that "This victory wouldn't have been possible without God." Huh? Are you saying God has nothing better to do with his day than to make sure the Marlins beat the Cubs? Or do you mean that God likes your teammates better than the people on the opposing team?>>>
Umm you aren't understanding the point. You praise god for the oppurtunity and talents that he has given you. Sports are a natural talent.
A natural talent? Doesn't God represent Nature? Why did he give Randy Moss this incredible talent and not me? I can say without hesitation that I certainly am a better person than Randy Moss. How does he get this gift given to him and not me?? What the hell did I do not to deserve that gift? Was it something I did in the womb? Was it something my 5' 8" Father did?
Edaarin
10-13-2003, 05:25 PM
I'm a Mahayana Buddhist. It's not for everyone, but anyone can practice. The basic tenets that I adhere by, I think most people also live by.
Scott
10-13-2003, 05:25 PM
<<<A natural talent? Doesn't God represent Nature? Why did he give Randy Moss this incredible talent and not me? I can say without hesitation that I certainly am a better person than Randy Moss. How does he get this gift given to him and not me?? What the hell did I do not to deserve that gift? Was it something I did in the womb? Was it something my 5' 8" Father did?>>>
I'm sure you have a natural talent, it's just not football. Ignorance seems to be one of your best talents, seems you've been practicing that quite a lot.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 05:28 PM
Don't bother Bandit, theres no talking to these people.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 05:30 PM
For me, I just don't see how there could be a god. I have always been into science and scientifically, I can't see how. Other than that, if there was a God I don't get why he wouldn't help us then. Where was God during plagues, wars, AIDS? Why would he let so many children starve? I see it like this, God is either really cruel or he doesn't exist and it's up to us to fix all the problems in the world.
Parkbandit
10-13-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Don't bother Bandit, theres no talking to these people.
Well, I doubt much they could talk me into believing there IS a God.
It's a good debate... I enjoy it actually.
Tsa`ah
10-13-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by GSLeloo
Personally, I have no religion at all. As I stated once in my human behavior class, to me religion is something we needed when we lacked an explanation. In ancient times, they created gods for everything they couldn't understand, then we created a new God to help guide us because we were unable to guide ourselves. I believe we no longer need one, we have science to help us understand so in my opinion, religion is very outdated and unnecessary. Others still need it to lead them.
A rather short sighted and blanket statement.
Religion, Judaism, to me is a moral code and history set down by my ancestors. It's not set in stone and it is far from perfect. When dismissed as passé, you become lost and hopeless. Not because you don't believe and not because you refuse to accept, but because you refuse to learn, understand, and evolve.
God, to me, is indescribable and inconceivable. Man doesn't have a clue and never will when it comes to God. That we attempt to quantify, categorize, and define God shows our thirst for understanding and knowledge, at the same time it shows our refusal to accept that we are insignificant. Man is vain, and until we can get past that, we'll be stuck in a rut.
When you sit down with a religious text and attempt to derive some hard line code from it, you commit a travesty. It's not there to govern us. It's there to teach us and mature us. The lessons are personal and are impossible to translate into an acceptable social structure.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Living to the bible, would make you opposed to blacks, gays among other minorities.
Absolutely false. During the biblical era, there were no white people. Look at the Middle East and Africa, without the whites, and that's pretty much how it was then. Gays and other minorities? One passage from the Torah covers male homosexuality as an unclean act. The prescribed treatment is death. Yet there are other passages that condemn almost every other aspect of today's society. It boils down to understanding the inconsistencies and taking to heart the actual message ... Tolerance of difference.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 05:31 PM
And just to point out before anyone screams at me, I respect all religions and I don't care what people believe. Just don't push your belief on me.
Parkbandit
10-13-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
I'm sure you have a natural talent, it's just not football. Ignorance seems to be one of your best talents, seems you've been practicing that quite a lot.
I could easily say the same to you Sintik.. but I respect your views. I don't understand them, nor believe in them.. but they are yours.
Faith is a personal thing. Believe in it if you must to get through the day. In the end, we will all die and simply become recycled.
Scott
10-13-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Originally posted by Gemstone101
I'm sure you have a natural talent, it's just not football. Ignorance seems to be one of your best talents, seems you've been practicing that quite a lot.
I could easily say the same to you Sintik.. but I respect your views. I don't understand them, nor believe in them.. but they are yours.
Faith is a personal thing. Believe in it if you must to get through the day. In the end, we will all die and simply become recycled.
That's exactly true. I'm not trying to force my views on you. You either believe or you don't. I'm not someone who says "you don't believe in god, you are going to hell." I'm just responding to what you say.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 05:50 PM
That's exactly what I hate, people that try to force their beliefs onto you. Religious people do it, Vegans do it, different political groups do it. I don't care what you believe in, but if you want me to attack what you believe in, try to force it on me.
I have a great respect for people of all religions, I just personally don't need that in my life. And so it becomes if I respect your belief, you respect mine.
Parkbandit
10-13-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
That's exactly true. I'm not trying to force my views on you. You either believe or you don't. I'm not someone who says "you don't believe in god, you are going to hell." I'm just responding to what you say.
I've yet to call you ignorant when discussing your faith though. While I may come across as arrogant at times... I do respect your views and your faith.
Scott
10-13-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Don't bother Bandit, theres no talking to these people.
You have to be the most ignorant person. If someone does agree with your point, it's suddenly the end of the world and there is no arguement. He made comments, I responded. It's called a debate. I understand that you are unable to talk to people who don't agree with you 100%, because you are too stupid to argue a point unless it ends it US sucks, but either listen and debate, or shut up completely.
I don't believe in a lot of what people say here. However everyone is entitled to opinion, even you. Just because someone argues one side of the point doesn't mean that they aren't trying to jam something down your throat.
Scott
10-13-2003, 05:58 PM
<<I've yet to call you ignorant when discussing your faith though. While I may come across as arrogant at times... I do respect your views and your faith.>>
Ignorance isn't really an insult. I do respect your views, but a comment like "why is Randy Moss a better football player then me" is an ignorant comment. It lacks understanding of the topic. You may or may not, but that comment was....
Anyway, I don't want to debate with you about that in this topic, I think it's a pretty good debate so start another topic and I'll talk about it there if you want to discuss further.
Ravenstorm
10-13-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah One passage from the Torah covers male homosexuality as an unclean act. The prescribed treatment is death. Yet there are other passages that condemn almost every other aspect of today's society.
That puts me in mind of what a friend wrote in his LJ when the whole gay Episcopalian priest issue was in the news. I'll quote him exactly:
And fuck you for screaming about a couple lines in Leviticus. Fuck you for being hypocrites. Who let you decide you could pick and choose which laws in the Bible are still valid and which aren't? If you're going to insist that every word of the Bible is truth, then you damn well better start following every law. Not just the ones you like. You know what? I know that book better than most of you do. I can quote it chapter and verse, not just the mean vicious parts.
More importantly, those of you who claim to be Christians? Isn't the whole point of Christianity that Christ created a new Covenant with God's people? This is, you know, why there's an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. A covenant is an agreement, a pact. In the Old Testament, the old Covenant involved the old Law. The old Laws were harsh, unforgiving, bloody, primitive. When Christ arrived, he created a new Covenant, a new Law, and that Law was love -- love each other, love thy neighbor. Christ did away with the old laws, wiped them away, and in their place established a new law. Is that not the point of the New Covenant? So why exactly the fuck are all these so-called Christians clinging with such tenacity to the bloodiest of Old Covenant laws that fly in the face of the New Covenant's basic philosophy?
(clipped) ...
The blended fabric law (Lev. 19:19, for those following along) is exactly the one I always quote back whenever someone quotes Lev. 18:22 at me. That, and the fact that any time you get a zit you're supposed to go to a priest (Lev. 13:18-19). Or hey, cutting closer to the heart of some of these folks, how about the fact that anyone who curses his father or mother should be put to death (Lev. 20:9)? Ever yelled at either of your parents? Death for you! Ever muttered about your mom under your breath! Die die die!
Farmers! If you plant a fruit tree, you can't eat from it for five years (Lev. 19:23-25)! If you eat from it, you're breaking the law of God! Oh, and those of you who cross-breed cattle? Lev. 19:19 says you're disobeying God. Bad! O wate but that law dusn't count becuz then we'l waste owr food!!!1111 Shut up, hypocrite. If you're going to insist that the entire Bible is the exact literal Word of God, not open to interpretation or alteration, then you better start living by it. Additionally, those of you who kill animals to eat? Lev. 17:3. That's murder if you don't then take the animal to the temple to get the Lord's blessing. That'll be pretty tough to do in the local slaughterhouse, so good luck.
Let's not get into how many times you're supposed to do laundry and bathe any time you come into contact with a woman who might be within a week of having menstruated, or a man who might have jerked off that morning in the shower. Just coming near them means you're unclean. You suck, man. Should've been a better Christian.
But see? Christians don't use the laws as laid out in Leviticus. Isn't that fucking handy? Christians have a whole brand new covenant. It's just that the psycho morons like to forget that now and then.
Thanks to Peverel for putting it so well.
Raven
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 06:19 PM
Thanks Raven for posting that. The dumbass christians will counter it of course.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 06:21 PM
Stray.. be a bit nicer. They are not dumbasses because they are Christians. Individuals are dumbasses, not a group of people that follow a certain belief.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 06:23 PM
Anyone who believes the descended from a guy called Adam and a woman called Eve, be a group or person, is a dumbass. And some fucking morons believe this shit too.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 06:27 PM
You can't base it on that. How do you even know all Christians believe that? Maybe they believe most of it or parts of it or certain beliefs of it. But as I've said, you can't say "You're a dumbass because you are this religion". It's like saying "You're trash cause you're white, you're this because you were born as that". You can't stereotype.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 06:28 PM
Yes, you are right Leloo. I apologize for the above. I shouldn't base my opinion soley on the group or belief as a whole. Indeed, I was the dumbass this time.
Kurili
10-13-2003, 06:54 PM
Actually, I think Raven's post summed up what I think too. That SOME self-righteous hypocrites who have managed to make themselves 'leaders' of Christian groups need to study their own bible better, before they start tossing around the passages that suit their own agenda of the moment.
And I in no way think that most Christian people come close to these charismatic, manipulative, egotistical psychopathic hate machines that get such a lot of attention in the Press. To compare the average person to these extremists would be like comparing the average GS player to Klaive .
Rant over.
Acolyte Kurili
Scott
10-13-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Thanks Raven for posting that. The dumbass christians will counter it of course.
You call Garr dumb but you are unable to comprehend that other people have a difference of opinion. There are always more then one side of a story, I'm sorry they haven't taught you that yet, maybe when you hit 9th grade.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:00 PM
Or when I burn in hell, yeah Sintik?
Scott
10-13-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Or when I burn in hell, yeah Sintik?
At least use some of the statements I said. I've made no comments about people who don't believe in God will go to hell. I actually said otherwise.
Besides, I think the greatest punishment anyone could recieve would be listening to your stupidity and ignorance for 1 day. You've recieved enough punishment having to listen to yourself on a daily basis, you don't deserve hell.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:08 PM
Or how about sitting with you and your bullshit penis extension for a day? I dunno which I'd hate worst...
Fuck it. Fuck the apology I posted. You are the A-typical zealous prick whom I hope reaches death and actually realizes he's wasted a pointless life preaching to a fucking figment of his imagination, then dies a dejected and pointless death.
Once again, a moderately intellegent debate disolves into namecalling, and cursing. Why debate when you can call people names, right Stray?
-Jack
draconis nematoda
10-13-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
During the biblical era, there were no white people. Look at the Middle East and Africa, without the whites, and that's pretty much how it was then.
Now you're just getting silly. :rolleyes:
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:12 PM
Dude, I apologized for what I said. It was Sintik who roused the fire again, so to speak. Not that I give a shit about some ignorant peon who believes Jesus "died for him".
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 07:13 PM
I think everyone needs to calm down. Religious is a very sensitive topic for many people. Some defend it blindly, while others need to attack it. We can't ask their reasons and they don't have to tell us them. Sintik has a reason to defend his religion, Stray has his own reason to hate it.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
During the biblical era, there were no white people. Look at the Middle East and Africa, without the whites, and that's pretty much how it was then.
Now you're just getting silly. :rolleyes:
First people were black/african. While I reckon there would be white people, the people in the Bible certainly weren't white, despite what most Renaissance art would lead us to believe.
Scott
10-13-2003, 07:15 PM
Aww, is someone simply unable to make a statement without cursing and swearing? I can play that too!
<<<Or how about sitting with you and your bullshit penis extension for a day?>>>
Just because my penis is bigger then yours doesn't mean you should get upset about it. :)
<<<You are the A-typical zealous prick whom I hope reaches death and actually realizes he's wasted a pointless life>>>
I know, my life is pointless because I believe in a higher being. I don't preach, I don't go to church, I don't pray constantly. I believe in a higher being. I know you are unable to comprehend that not everyone believes in your 6th grade mentality, but guess what, THEY DO!
<<<preaching to a fucking figment of his imagination>>>
Look at all my preaching!
<<<then dies a dejected and pointless death.>>>
I've done a lot with my life. If I happened to die today, I would proud of my accomplishments in life.
draconis nematoda
10-13-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
During the biblical era, there were no white people. Look at the Middle East and Africa, without the whites, and that's pretty much how it was then.
Now you're just getting silly. :rolleyes:
First people were black/african. While I reckon there would be white people, the people in the Bible certainly weren't white, despite what most Renaissance art would lead us to believe.
And I suppose because you are so bloody all knowing and wise you have absolute proof of this.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:17 PM
Yeah, they do believe it. Blindly. To the death, hating even those who don't believe in the same God as you do. Thats why shit like 9/11 happen. Where the fuck was "love thy neighbour" when you bombed the shit out of their country? Indeed, its idiots like you that are highlighted totally in Raven's post.
Stray, how about you start ignoring this topic, and stop making yourself look like a complete asshole? I realize somewhere in your anger, there is a point, but it's not very evident. Some people get a bit emotional over certain subjects, and allow their emotions to cloud their judgement. This is what it would appear is happenning with you at this point.
-Jack
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
During the biblical era, there were no white people. Look at the Middle East and Africa, without the whites, and that's pretty much how it was then.
Now you're just getting silly. :rolleyes:
First people were black/african. While I reckon there would be white people, the people in the Bible certainly weren't white, despite what most Renaissance art would lead us to believe.
And I suppose because you are so bloody all knowing and wise you have absolute proof of this.
Yeah I do. Its called Science pal...
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGdna.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:21 PM
Couldn't give a shit what you, sintik or anyone thinks of me Jack. Religion is a shitty thing that makes people do worse shitty things. It has its good, but they are far out-weighed by the bad.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 07:22 PM
Ok everyone needs to take a deep breath. The fact is, that for as long as there have been different religions, there have been conflicts. People find it very hard to get along with people that have different beliefs. But guess what, we're supposed to be above that by now.
We're supposed to be tolerant and understand each other rather than attack each other. You say wars came because of religions? Maybe, but not because of the religions... because of the followers. Look at what you guys are doing right now, having your own little war.
Seriously, stop attacking each other.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:25 PM
Leloo, I could tolerate them. Its when they shove their shit in my face, is when I begin to realize how much of a brain-washed and broken people, religious zealots can be. Its also why wars start. Look at Ireland. That conflict will never end. Why? Religion. I've known people who have been killed due to that petty little fight. Utter none-sense.
I personally don't care one way or another about religeon. My point is, since you are incapable of debating like an adult, you should probably just stop now. It seems like every time politics, or religeon come up on these boards, you show up and start with the name calling and cursing rather than intellegent debate. I don't think anyone wants to participate in a debate here because of that. If you are not emotionally mature enough to handle a debate, stay out of it.
-Jack
draconis nematoda
10-13-2003, 07:27 PM
Let me tell you why things like 9/11 happen. It's because there are people in the world like Bin Laden, and I'm sorry to say this, and you Stray who think that if there people who don't believe in the things you do they are idiots, or should be dead.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 07:27 PM
See, I don't believe religion makes wars. See my thread about Human Behavior... I believe that just because a higher authority (God, bible, church leader) tells you to do something and you do it because they told you to, you are still responsible for your actions.
So don't blame the problems in Ireland on religion, each person chose their own way.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:30 PM
Bin Laden believes that Allah or whomever wants him to kill all westerners. Religion.
The conflict in Ireland, between Protestant and Catholics. I know irish people, on both sides. This shit is bred into them, this hate, from birth all the way through their lives. And this is good? Where is the good in throwing bricks through windows, shooting people in the street, and crucifying someone to the wall, ALL BECAUSE they believe something slightly different to you?
You are correct in saying we all have free will. But when our hands and minds are forced, by religion, who is to blame then?
[Edited on 13-10-03 by StrayRogue]
Ravenstorm
10-13-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Religion.. blah blah blah
Yet you devolve into name calling and insults when the topic is politics as well. And on quite a few others as well in various threads. You need to learn how to disagree with someone without tantrums. Post arguments to counter points. Don't attack the person because you don't like him/her or what they're saying.
And Sintik, you played the insult card first in the thread so go directly to jail yourself. And don't pass Go.
Ignorance seems to be one of your best talents, seems you've been practicing that quite a lot.
Raven
Scott
10-13-2003, 07:33 PM
That wasn't said to Strayrogue, it was said to Parkbandit. Ignorance is a lack of understanding of a topic, it's not an insult. It was said rudely yes. However it was said for mocking/sarcastic remark that was said earlier. It had a point behind it. It wasn't just to be rude.
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Gemstone101]
draconis nematoda
10-13-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Bin Laden believes that Allah or whomever wants him to kill all westerners. Religion.
The conflict in Ireland, between Protestant and Catholics. I know irish people, on both sides. This shit is bred into them, this hate, from birth all the way through their lives. And this is good? Where is the good in throwing bricks through windows, shooting people in the street, and crucifying someone to the wall, ALL BECAUSE they believe something slightly different to you?
You are correct in saying we all have free will. But when our hands and minds are forced, by religion, who is to blame then?
[Edited on 13-10-03 by StrayRogue]
It's the fault of the greedy egotistical bigoted bastards who use religion as an excuse to lie, cheat, steal, and kill others for their own benefit.
No where in any legitimate religious writing does it state to kill anyone and everyone who isn't the same religion that you are.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:38 PM
Ok, here's some Bible screw ups. Please believe what you want to believe, do as your told, etc etc. You know the score already, don't you sheep?
Does God repent?
(Genesis 6:6) God does repent.
(Numbers 23:19) God does not repent
(I Samuel 15:11,35) God does repent.
How many animals went on the Ark?
(GEN6:19-20) God told Noah to take with him on the ark two of every king of animal to include birds, animals and creeping things
(GEN7:2-3) God told Noah to take with him on the ark seven of every clean animal and bird and two of every unclean animal.
Does God cause confusion?
(GEN11:9) God confused the language of all the Earth at Babel
(EX15:24) God troubled (CONFUSED BY SOME TRANSLATIONS) the army of Egypt.
(1SAM7:10) God thundered upon the philistines so as to confuse them
(1COR14:33) God is not the author of confusion
Who has seen God?
(Gen 18:1) The Lord appeared to Abraham.
(GEN32:24-30) Jacob saw and wrestled with God
(EX24:9-11) Moses & 73 elders gazed upon God.
(Exodus 33:11) God spoke to Moses face-to-face.
(Exodus 33:22-23) God allowed Moses to see his "back parts".
(Deut 34:10) God spoke to Moses face-to-face.
(IS6:1-13) Isaiah stood before God and saw him
(Ezekiel 1:27-28) Ezekiel saw God in a vision and described Him in some detail.
(Amos 7:7) Amos saw God.
(John 1:18, 6:46) No one has ever seen God.
(1TIM6:16) God is un-seeable
(I John 4:12) No one has ever seen God.
Just a few of the hundreds of contradictions and general BS from the Bible. Please go check them. Either way, you stake your lives to this shit? Seriously? Believing in the spiritual is one thing (I am a bit of a dualist myself), but blindly following this tripe...get out of town.
[Edited on 13-10-03 by StrayRogue]
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 07:40 PM
Every person has the ability to be better than they were born. You were born into a family where your parents tell you that you have to hate this type of person because they're this religion or race? Well boo fucking hoo. Guess what, you make the choice to do it. And don't just say it's religion, people are told from birth that they should hate this race. It's not religion, it's not race, it's human nature.
Stray, not bringing religion into the debate at all, your responses are looking like those of an angsty teen.
Sintik posted his rebuttals in a calm manner, in no way trying to force an opinion on you, and you've countered with arguments straight from an AOL chat room.
I've seen nothing but respectful reponses from the parties not agreeing with you, and all I see coming from your side of the field are rude, crass remarks.
If you're looking to impress anyone, which I'm sure you're not because you just don't give a damn, right? Learn to argue with a demeanor which doesn't present you as a disrespectful, quick to temper brat.
And quite frankly, the contradictory Bible argument is worthless.
It's a well accepted fact that the Bible is a work of man, not of God. And as we all know, man is far from perfect.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:45 PM
Its social conditioning brought about, in this case, by religion. Its blind hatred Leloo. I really hope you never have to hear any of the shit either of their fundamentalist's say to each other, but its horrible. Their hatred is not a choice for them (granted not all are religious or hate either side), but the ideal is wide-spread. Its why there is still conflict there. While I do agree it has gotten to the point beyond religion now, they hate simply because their father's, father's father hated them, the problem still does stem from religion.
Scott
10-13-2003, 07:46 PM
The problem with the inconsistances are the fact that:
1. They come from a bible that is summarized and the words aren't even close to the original translation
2. They are out of context
3. It's abridged
[Edited on 10-13-2003 by Gemstone101]
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by peam
And quite frankly, the contradictory Bible argument is worthless.
It's a well accepted fact that the Bible is a work of man, not of God. And as we all know, man is far from perfect.
Typical response. People still believe this shit though. People still kill each other, over these details.
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 07:47 PM
See to me, that's retarded. I don't hate anyone just because a family member did or my country does or any other BS like that. I make my own decisions on people.
imported_Kranar
10-13-2003, 07:48 PM
You may as well just hate humans. I mean all your points aren't exclusive to religion, it seems you just decided to unfairly focus on people who wish to believe in something you do not.
If you have want to generalize and hate an entire people because of war, or whatnot... heck, you may as well just hate all of us. Don't just single out the priest, or myself, or your neighbour.
Some people do and some people don't.
To assume everyone who even vaguely lives by the standards of the Christian bible is a gay smiting, zealot who's going to condemn everyone else to Hell is ridiculous, though.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:49 PM
It is to me too Leloo. But thats people for you. They blindly follow. Its why religion propogated itself in the first place.
Weedmage Princess
10-13-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by peam
Some people do and some people don't.
To assume everyone who even vaguely lives by the standards of the Christian bible is a gay smiting, zealot who's going to condemn everyone else to Hell is ridiculous, though.
I do hope you're listening to that, Stray.
I do think rather highly of you, have always enjoyed your posts, etc. but your stance here is...upsetting to say the least.
I consider myself a Christian. I don't believe in "organized" religion per se, I believe my relationship with God is my own, and as I said in a post earlier, I live my life in accordance with what I've learned earlier, and what I feel is right. I do feel there is a Higher Being, a God, I do believe Jesus died for us, I do believe I'm a descendant of Adam and Eve, and I do believe all humans are God's children..no matter what someone's actions may be, it's not my place to judge them. I also don't force my beliefs on anyone. Again, my faith is a personal thing. And I find it pretty hurtful that you'd make all these pretty baseless (and untrue) assumptions about me because of my beliefs. I'm not some gay hating, racial, narrow minded schmuck lemming that you're making ALL people who believe in Christianity to be. As a matter of fact, if you take a step back and look at your comments with a clear mind (and I know you're capable, cause you're a smart guy) you'll see just how much some of your comments sound like the exact thing you're speaking out against.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 07:55 PM
Thats just it Kranar, I don't hate. I didn't hijack a plane to crash into your country because of religious disbeliefs. A local shopping centre wasn't bombed by me because I was making a point on how the local cease-fire was full of shit. I didn't sail to your country, burn the "infidels" and claim Christianity as Gods word. What religion has caused is BAD.
Look at some of these RECENT quotes, and please show me how they are good...
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
-Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue
Quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana. 8-16-93
"In winning a nation to the gospel, the sword as well as the pen must be used." "Democracy is a heresy against God!"
-R.J. Rushdooney, Director of the Rutherford Institute,
which was the principal funder of Monica Lewinsky's
legal defense, and architect of "Christian Reconstructionism."
This is harsh stuff. And why? Because I don't believe what you believe. If they did not force this upon us, as it is forced upon us day after day, I would not have a care in the world. But it is.
Religion, any religion, that when confronted with a conflict between love, compassion and caring, and conformity to doctrine, will almost invariably choose the latter regardless of the effect it has on its followers or on the society of which it is a part.
This to me, is a bad thing. I am one for total freedom of belief. Not "believe us or be condemned".
Actually, for a long period, I was an atheist.
Through my own doing and research I found the faith I practice now.
I'm sure there are others on this board who have similar experience. Not everyone is a Christian just because their parents dressed them up every Sunday and made them to go church.
imported_Kranar
10-13-2003, 07:58 PM
What are you implying exactly StrayRogue?
That those like myself and those who have a religion are now hijackers, or terrorists, or bombers?
Scott
10-13-2003, 07:59 PM
Look at what people have said here. Nobody has deemed you to go to hell for you beliefs. Nobody here has crashed a plane into a building. Just because Rush Limbaugh makes racist comments (I'm not talking about the Donovan McNabb comment) every white person is a racist?
Snapp
10-13-2003, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by GSLeloo
Every person has the ability to be better than they were born. You were born into a family where your parents tell you that you have to hate this type of person because they're this religion or race? Well boo fucking hoo. Guess what, you make the choice to do it. And don't just say it's religion, people are told from birth that they should hate this race. It's not religion, it's not race, it's human nature.
That's not a totally fair statement Leloo. Some people are literally brain-washed by their families and/or religion. I myself was raised as a strict Catholic.. my parents taught us being non-Catholic was bad, were racist & taught us that gay people were evil.
I was lucky, and ended up open-minded (most likely because I turned out to be gay...talk about years of self-hatred..), but my some of my siblings did not. So I can see how some of this stuff is passed on from generation to generation.. It's a sad cycle.
Tsa`ah
10-13-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
During the biblical era, there were no white people. Look at the Middle East and Africa, without the whites, and that's pretty much how it was then.
Now you're just getting silly. :rolleyes:
Care to elaborate? Or just make baseless comments?
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 08:06 PM
No Kranar, but under your "love thy neighbour" attitudes, you were still more than welcome to go and bomb the shit out of a country whose majority of the population had no control over the attack.
My point is, religion only leads to hatred and devision. It most often brings people together yes, but these groups tend to appose ones of different beliefs.
For example, I live two houses away from a Temple. I once thought this was a mosque and nearly had my head kicked in by a nearby muslim who over heard me say so. He said I would have not been "well recieved" if I had made that mistake in there. There open venom for the Temple was evident. And why? Its like racism. Blind hatred indoctrinated into us.
All I am saying is that religion is an out-dated form of control that invariably breeds hatred and violence amongst those whom practice different forms.
[Edited on 14-10-03 by StrayRogue]
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 08:09 PM
Religion offers salvation, enlightenment, a place in heaven. Religion teaches self-improvement: humility, devotion, patience, faith. Religion demands a standard of behavior that benefits our souls, our bodies and our society. Because all of the above can be self-serving and narcissistic. Religion can be its own worst enemy.
Religion emphasizes the importance of being good, and of being right. It condemns those who are bad and those who are wrong. Those who practice a religion strive to be perfect. If they fail they may be condemned, and if they succeed they may become intolerant of others.
Religion must invariably create a caste system—more religious is better, higher, holier. Less religious is lesser, lower, more profane. The pious can be measured in percentages. 100%, 50%, 2%.
Religion insists our nature is evil. To be good, we are told, we must resist our natural impulses and replace them with other worldly virtues. You can't be “you” and good at the same time. You must therefore sacrifice the “you" and choose “good.”
GSLeloo
10-13-2003, 08:19 PM
I actually have a religious question... ok say you marry someone, they die, and you remarry.. you loved both spouses equally. So.. what happens when you die? Which are you reunited with?
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 08:22 PM
Good question? Threesome in heaven? Or just worm food?
Edaarin
10-13-2003, 08:27 PM
Let's try to avoid calling other people's beliefs bullshit, hey?
Scott
10-13-2003, 08:36 PM
The bible makes no specific references about what will take place. However from what is said, everyone is suppose to love eachother equally in heaven. There wouldn't be a need for marriage in heaven. You love everyone equally.
Bestatte
10-13-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by ElvenRangeress
The bible says ... "Do on to others as you would want others to do on to you" "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" "Judge not yet ye' be judged"...
Although I agree with the sentiment, Rangeress, you might want to re-read your bible before trying to quote it again.
Do UNTO others as ye would have them do UNTO you. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Judge not lest ye be judged.
Heck, those are in the new testement, and I'm Jewish, but I managed to get it right.
-She who does not acknowledge the laws of either old nor new testament, but rather the laws she finds to make sense.
HarmNone
10-13-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by GSLeloo
Ok everyone needs to take a deep breath. The fact is, that for as long as there have been different religions, there have been conflicts. People find it very hard to get along with people that have different beliefs. But guess what, we're supposed to be above that by now.
Normally, I do not get involved in discussion of religion or politics. I heed the advice handed down to me by my mother, and to her by her mother.
However, I can add this: I am Pagan, my mother is Atheist, my grandmother is Catholic (but taught me in the ways of my belief based on what she learned as a child in Wales), my daughter is a Christian, and my son is drawn to Eastern religions but seems to have chosen nothing absolutely. He claims to be Agnostic.
Now, we all seem to be able to gather at my house and have a wonderful time together without feeling the need to argue amongst ourselves. That holds true even when discussing religion or world events, no matter how traumatic. It would seem to me that peace could be maintained, without too much effort, on a message board, eh?:rolleyes:
HarmNone suggests tolerance
Originally posted by StrayRogue
When I say I believe in Science, I say it because I believe I am not descended from Adam and Eve, who were "born", according to Christian scientists, 12000 years ago. I believe in Evolution. I believe this planet was created over a series of billion years. Not seven days.
[Edited on 13-10-03 by StrayRogue]
at no place in the bible does it state how long a day is to god.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 10:37 PM
I love these justifications. None of your crap can be proved, but it can't be disproved either. I love it! Its why so many of you people fall for it constantly.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
I have no people who believe in God or religion. Just don't fucking shove it in my face.
You shove your disbelief in religion in our faces by your comments so please if that is what you wish do not be a hypocrite
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 10:40 PM
No prob sheep.
Ravenstorm
10-13-2003, 10:44 PM
I pretty much accept that the universe began with a 'big bang' and then everything followed naturally and mathematically from there following the laws of physics. Many of which I'm sure we don't know yet.
However, I have no answer for what caused the big bang in the first place nor where that little bit of primal matter that went bang came from.
That it might be because of some 'God' is a possibility. That it might BE 'God' is also a possibility. Fact is, I don't know the answer to my question and science can't answer it. Yet, at least. If they do, maybe I'll reevaluate my opinion.
Raven
Edited to add: And to bring it back on topic, such a monster as that so called 'reverend' Phelps is no servant of any God worthy of the name. Which is not the fault of the deity in question. Unfortunately, there are more than enough like him.
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by Ravenstorm]
Scott
10-13-2003, 10:46 PM
I believe in the "big bang" as well. I just believe that god was the reason behind it.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Anyone who believes the descended from a guy called Adam and a woman called Eve, be a group or person, is a dumbass. And some fucking morons believe this shit too.
For a person to take everything in the bible as a literal meaning lacks the ability to understand religion. The bible is a guide on how we should live our lives. It is impossible to disprove the existence of god yet as of this point it is completely possible to prove those who use science as their proof for god not existing false in their assumptions. The Deist point of view on the existence of god is a perfect example of that
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 10:49 PM
A way of living? So burning heretics and condemning gays is a way of living? I suppose it is for TOJ, yeah, you are on to something here...
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Its social conditioning brought about, in this case, by religion. Its blind hatred Leloo. I really hope you never have to hear any of the shit either of their fundamentalist's say to each other, but its horrible. Their hatred is not a choice for them (granted not all are religious or hate either side), but the ideal is wide-spread. Its why there is still conflict there. While I do agree it has gotten to the point beyond religion now, they hate simply because their father's, father's father hated them, the problem still does stem from religion.
I wonder how one so against those who are religious knows us all so well…..
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 10:55 PM
Because I live with religious people. I live with an irish militant. Because the IRA are on the news everyday? Because its an issue discussed constantly. Because I know people who've died in that conflict. Because you don't need to be religious to understand or know religion. Because I live close to a place that was bombed to hell.
So tell me how you as a person know more about the existence of a god or a higher being than the billions upon billions of those that lived before you? How is it that you are so enlightened over them and us… us sheep as you call us…. Which happens to be far from an insult since we are all lambs under the lord’s guidance.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Because I live with religious people. I live with an irish militant. Because the IRA are on the news everyday? Because its an issue discussed constantly. Because I know people who've died in that conflict. Because you don't need to be religious to understand or know religion. Because I live close to a place that was bombed to hell.
Now answer me this do you feel that the people you live with are doing what the bible teaches us to do. Do you feel that one must put Catholicism against other forms of Christianity?
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 11:02 PM
Did I say I was more enlightened? No one person is any more enlightened than the next. And yes, you are all sheep. You do as your told and follow your master. Its rare you get people to admit their blind following to something.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 11:04 PM
"What you want me to walk over this cliff?"
"Yes"
"Why?"
"Because it will lead to Heaven?"
"Oh, alright then....Weeeeeee"
Thats all I am going to say, as I retire to bed.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Did I say I was more enlightened? No one person is any more enlightened than the next. And yes, you are all sheep. You do as your told and follow your master. Its rare you get people to admit their blind following to something.
one must be blind in the face of faith for if we do know what is comeing next it is not a belief but knowledge. It is in the absence of knowledge that faith comes in.
StrayRogue
10-13-2003, 11:07 PM
My above post describes the pit falls of blind faifth. Thats all I have to say on the subject.
Ravenstorm
10-13-2003, 11:31 PM
I can totally see how being caught in between the Catholic/Protestant conflict in Ireland can produce some extreme anti-religion feelings. Living with someone on one side, knowing people who've died because of it... It's an extremely bad situation.
You have my sympathies and, I hope, even those who are arguing the pro religious side can understand what is producing such a sentiment. I'd probably react similarly.
Raven
I have issues with blind faith also. If you read the bible at different parts of your life, you will get a different meaning to it. My son loves going to church. I always ask him questions, so he can think about it and make his OWN decisions. But his mother gets mad at me when I question him about his beliefs. I do think going to church and trying to be a better person is a good thing. But you can't be a sheep.
I see what people did in the crusades and doing now with suicide bombings in the name of religion. Religion is so easily abused. Hell the majority of KKK members are Christians and go to church every Sunday.
But you know what? Some people need to believe in something. That there is a reason for their existance. They need this to keep going. Doesn't mean they are weak or stupid. They just need some answers and religion gives them what they need.
But when you kill in the name of a religion. Doesn't mean the religion is bad. It just means someone has abused it. Made it into something perverse and dark to justify the evil they are going to commit.
Originally posted by edge
I have issues with blind faith also. If you read the bible at different parts of your life, you will get a different meaning to it. My son loves going to church. I always ask him questions, so he can think about it and make his OWN decisions. But his mother gets mad at me when I question him about his beliefs. I do think going to church and trying to be a better person is a good thing. But you can't be a sheep.
I see what people did in the crusades and doing now with suicide bombings in the name of religion. Religion is so easily abused. Hell the majority of KKK members are Christians and go to church every Sunday.
But you know what? Some people need to believe in something. That there is a reason for their existance. They need this to keep going. Doesn't mean they are weak or stupid. They just need some answers and religion gives them what they need.
But when you kill in the name of a religion. Doesn't mean the religion is bad. It just means someone has abused it. Made it into something perverse and dark to justify the evil they are going to commit.
Holy shit, Edge. Great post.
draconis nematoda
10-14-2003, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
During the biblical era, there were no white people. Look at the Middle East and Africa, without the whites, and that's pretty much how it was then.
Now you're just getting silly. :rolleyes:
Care to elaborate? Or just make baseless comments?
I'll use the same link Stray did.
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGdna.htm
Nowhere in the article does it say anything about color of skin. It states that the supposed orgins of man came from Africa. That's a geographic region, not a race.
And since no one alive today was there at the time, who is to say people wern't all blue skinned then.
HarmNone
10-14-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by edge
I have issues with blind faith also. If you read the bible at different parts of your life, you will get a different meaning to it. My son loves going to church. I always ask him questions, so he can think about it and make his OWN decisions. But his mother gets mad at me when I question him about his beliefs. I do think going to church and trying to be a better person is a good thing. But you can't be a sheep.
I see what people did in the crusades and doing now with suicide bombings in the name of religion. Religion is so easily abused. Hell the majority of KKK members are Christians and go to church every Sunday.
But you know what? Some people need to believe in something. That there is a reason for their existance. They need this to keep going. Doesn't mean they are weak or stupid. They just need some answers and religion gives them what they need.
But when you kill in the name of a religion. Doesn't mean the religion is bad. It just means someone has abused it. Made it into something perverse and dark to justify the evil they are going to commit.
Very well said, Sir Edge. Because one fool acts as fools will act, the behavior of that fool must not be used to judge all people. All people are not fools.
HarmNone
Drew2
10-14-2003, 02:51 AM
I'm much like Stray, but much less angry. I don't believe in anything, I don't agree with a lot, and I don't appreciate it when people try to shove their beliefs down my throat, but I have more of a "Live and let live" attitude. I don't care if you worship guacamole.
I'll discuss my views and opinions if you like, and I might get into a debate, but I won't tell them they're wrong. I'm not even sure if I'm right. There's just too much that makes sense about what I believe for me to ignore it, so I continue with it.
Unfortunatly, my grandmother became a devout Christian in her later years of life. She was very close to our family, and I did attend church quite often as a child and young teenager, but I can never remember a time when I believed a word of it. Anyway, my point is... my mother picked up on my grandmother's beliefs over time... and I honestly believe she frowns upon anything other than what she believes. I have never been able to tell her that I'm probably an athiest. I don't feel like putting myself in that kind of situation... especially after my grandmother's death 2 years ago. My mother needs to believe what she believes... she needs to 'know' her mother is watching over, in a better place, etc.
The death of my grandmother saddened me, yes. It hurt for a long time, as she was very close to our family. But I believe all that remains of her is buried next to her parents in Arizona. And I'm content with that. She lived a very, very full life... one I hope to match in experiences and trials. But I don't attribute that to any higher power as she did. I like to believe people can take credit for their own accomplishments. Furthermore, I'd hate to think I'd have to spend an eternity after death hanging around somewhere else watching everyone else lead out their lives. What's the fun in that? I want to 'sleep' after life, hoping I make the most of it, and having it over and done with.
Ok none of this probably made any sense because I'm very tired... so you're probably better off ignoring it until I can revise/edit it tomorrow.
draconis nematoda
10-14-2003, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
I love these justifications. None of your crap can be proved, but it can't be disproved either. I love it! Its why so many of you people fall for it constantly.
"Science does not promise absolute truth, nor does it consider that such a thing necessarily exists. Science does not even promise that everything in the universe is amenable to the scientific process." -- Isaac Asimov
Tsa`ah
10-14-2003, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
[quote]
Care to elaborate? Or just make baseless comments?
I'll use the same link Stray did.
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGdna.htm
Nowhere in the article does it say anything about color of skin. It states that the supposed orgins of man came from Africa. That's a geographic region, not a race.
And since no one alive today was there at the time, who is to say people wern't all blue skinned then.
Now you are just being silly.
Science is a wonderful thing. Albinos aside, there lacks any evidence that Caucasian man walked among the residents of pre-roman occupied Middle-East or Africa. The archaeological record just does not exist.
Bone structure, DNA, and in this case ... REGION are very indicative to race, despite our DNA only having a 1% variation. We only have a 1% variation when compared to a slug or even mold.
Mitochondrial DNA only disproves your "blue-skin" analogy. Look at the aboriginal population of Africa. Look at your parents, grand parents. It's not illogical to assume that if your parents, grand parents, and as far back as you care to look, are white ... you will also be white.
Apple trees don't produce oranges unless you graft an orange tree branch to the apple tree. Archaeological research hasn't found any orange tree branches yet, so my argument stands.
Originally posted by Backlash
Originally posted by edge
I have issues with blind faith also. If you read the bible at different parts of your life, you will get a different meaning to it. My son loves going to church. I always ask him questions, so he can think about it and make his OWN decisions. But his mother gets mad at me when I question him about his beliefs. I do think going to church and trying to be a better person is a good thing. But you can't be a sheep.
I see what people did in the crusades and doing now with suicide bombings in the name of religion. Religion is so easily abused. Hell the majority of KKK members are Christians and go to church every Sunday.
But you know what? Some people need to believe in something. That there is a reason for their existance. They need this to keep going. Doesn't mean they are weak or stupid. They just need some answers and religion gives them what they need.
But when you kill in the name of a religion. Doesn't mean the religion is bad. It just means someone has abused it. Made it into something perverse and dark to justify the evil they are going to commit.
Holy shit, Edge. Great post.
people who do that follow a perverse belief of what religion is, and is ment to be. Thoes are the people who use religion for their own Benefit. Be it because they hate African Americans, or all Americans. The leaders use the ignorance of those that follow them and manipulate them to their own will. Faith is blind, or it is not faith.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
In the theological sense Faith is the belief in god. Not in the words of a pastor or reverend. Take Jessie Jackson for example he is one who uses his perverse faith and his own racist beliefs (in his dislike of Caucasian males more directly) to take the advantage in political situations. While he speaks of family values he has a mistress on the side that gives birth to his child and he uses money donated to his non-for profit cause to keep her finically sustained and quiet. That is an example of how not everyone follows what religion teaches us. Now I will freely admit I am not traveled, or a rogue scholar. I do not know an extreme amount about the world outside of the United States. I do have my beliefs and I will always blindly believe in god. It is not his existence that I question but the words of those that would preach to us about that existence. And what he wishes us to do. If I were Muslim I would question, if I was Jewish I would question, one questions what they are told but one, or I do not question my faith. I firmly believe in the existence of god. I firmly believe that my prayers have been answered. There are to many miracles that have come to be in this world that science cannot figure out, there are to many questions that science can not answer. Much of what science is based on is speculation. Aside from the rules of math, we continue to find out what we once believed to be wrong or incorrect. I have to ask what created those rules how did we come to be on this specific planet to have this specific conversation. And when one can answer me that with 100% certainty with absolutely no argument to the contrary then I might think otherwise, until that time I will believe in a higher power and for you to call me a mindless sheep or a moron ect. for my beliefs or my faith shows your ignorance (The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed) on what “I” believe.
Warriorbird
10-14-2003, 08:31 AM
And after posting that...you'll go after those darn homosexuals. Whee, tolerance.
if that was directed at me then let me state this. It does not matter to me your sexual perfrence that is your choice. What you do with your life is yours to decide. I have what I believe in. I don't expect you to believe the same thing. I dont care what race, religion, sex, or sexual prefrence you are, if your a good person then i can consider you a friend.
Parkbandit
10-14-2003, 08:41 AM
Doesn't your God make people Homosexual?
Or is that the Devil?
I still see a lot of silly posts that imply that everyone who's remotely Christian believes that they're some sort of chess piece being moved by God.
I know that I and a few others have said that we believe humans have free will, and a majority of people, if not all, live their lives without any direct influence from God, so why keep asking stupid questions like that? A biting, sarcastic comment doesn't prove anything on your side of the argument; it just makes you look like an ass.
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by peam]
Thank you peam I could not have said it better myself.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 09:38 AM
Great post edge. Of course it doesnt make any difference to these religious nuts. As someone posted, "people need religion".
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by The Edine
if that was directed at me then let me state this. It does not matter to me your sexual perfrence that is your choice. What you do with your life is yours to decide. I have what I believe in. I don't expect you to believe the same thing. I dont care what race, religion, sex, or sexual prefrence you are, if your a good person then i can consider you a friend.
Yes, but your bible tells you that all gays will be condemned. Raven has said this, you can't pick and choose here, unless you want go to hell.
Tendarian
10-14-2003, 09:45 AM
I dont know if its cause im agnostic or what but i love hearing discussions about any religion as i havent found one that fits my beliefs yet. The one part i dont like is when the discussions fall apart into mindless insults (yeah yeah im one to talk i know) cause i learn nothing then. Religion and politics are the two greatest topics there are as it really brings out peoples emotions more than anything else and i feel i can always learn something from people who are thinking in ways i dont.
Warriorbird
10-14-2003, 10:49 AM
"I know that I and a few others have said that we believe humans have free will, and a majority of people, if not all, live their lives without any direct influence from God, so why keep asking stupid questions like that? A biting, sarcastic comment doesn't prove anything on your side of the argument; it just makes you look like an ass. "
And I'm sure a fair number of you have had pre-marital sex as well...yet you don't ostracize or stone yourselves for that. Your comment there is almost to the level of the ones meant to be flip...not adding much to a discussion.
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by Warriorbird]
Wezas
10-14-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Raven has said this, you can't pick and choose here, unless you want go to hell.
I'm already going to hell. I eat babies.
MMMM Baby, it's what's for dinner! Get in my belly!
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 11:05 AM
Don't worry dude. So am I ;)
Weedmage Princess
10-14-2003, 11:05 AM
Am I the only one who finds it funny that no one's bashed, badmouthed or belitted Stray for NOT believing in God or anything of the sort, however he's bashed, badmouthed and belitted EVERYONE who believes in God, and erroneously tries to justify his actions by claiming that people who believe in God try to "shove their beliefs down other's throats?"
I'm withdrawing myself from this thread. It would be nice to have a discussion with someone who is civil enough to discuss this without resorting to the same barbaric tactics they claim to be so against.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 11:08 AM
Hey, I have posted calmly with facts, histories, knowledge. You and your bible crew seem to glaze over this Weedmage. So I don't believe in a fantastical document that proclaims impossible things, magical beasts, and sets forth a set of rules that contradict themselves.
TOJ pretty much is my poster child for why I hate religion. His INTOLERANCE, something the bible is meant to practice, is exactly why I pity people who need religion.
Tendarian
10-14-2003, 11:16 AM
Your INTOLERANCE of religion is just as obvious though no?
Bestatte
10-14-2003, 11:23 AM
True story: I used to work for the phone company. Got transferred to the department that brought DSL to the state. Out of around 20 women in the support staff crew (there were no men in the support staff crew), only three of us were -not- born-again christians.
One of them kept putting leaflets on my desk and gave me "little gifts of love" - like old used cheap copper crosses, and worn out bookmarks proclaiming Jesus as the savior...
I complained to my supervisor. Unfortunately, she was also born-again. I quit my job, after 4.5 years in the company, because of that atmosphere. I wasn't eligible to transfer anywhere else for another 9 months and knew I'd go postal if I stayed.
I see Stray doing the exact same thing, in the opposite direction. Telling me that I'm a mindless sheep, is no different from telling me that if I don't believe in Jesus I'll burn in hell.
I have faith that there's something more than human beings living and dying and turning to dust. What is that something? No idea. Only the dead know, and they ain't talking. I guess I'll find out when I get there. In the meantime, I'll be the best "ME" that I can be. That doesn't mean I'll be the best you, or the best christian, or the best jew, or the best white woman, or the best housewife. Just me. I'm the only one who has to live with myself when the day is over. Hubby could leave me, but I'm stuck with myself. So I'll just be satisfied with that (and glad hubby thinks I'm worth sticking around for).
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Tendarian
Your INTOLERANCE of religion is just as obvious though no?
Again, someone who picks and chooses what they read, leaving out whats already been said just to make an attack.
I don't give a shit about religion. You can believe whatever you want to believe, if it makes you feel better to blame God, or feel a greater part of a whole, or have to be told what to do and how to live, FINE. I don't care. Just keep it out of my face, don't force your out-dated fantastical beliefs on me, and I can happily live with you going to Church and saying prayers everyday.
But its not like this. Religion forces its way into peoples lives, even those lives whom don't want it too. That is why I hate it.
Weedmage Princess
10-14-2003, 11:27 AM
Me and my bible crew. That's pretty funny, considering I can't even remember the last time I've been to church..heh.
Yeah. Everyone should be treated for who they are, not what they believe. Everyone has their own individual value. Love and tolerance for all. Except if they believe in God. Then no matter who they are or to what degree their beliefs extend, they're all "fucking brainless sheep" who are "weak." They ALL are gay hating racist hatemongers who shove their beliefs down everyone's throat. I get it now, thanks ;)
Way to speak out against prejudices and intolerance, Stray. You're doing an EXCELLENT job <applauds>
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 11:30 AM
Thats what your bible says Weedmage. As Raven posted, most Christians have a way of ignoring parts of the bible then striking out against people who don't follow the 10 commandmants. Perhaps read his post again, instead of picking and choosing what laws to live by.
Warriorbird
10-14-2003, 11:31 AM
Yet, of course, you don't spin it the other way and call out folks for being homophobes. Everyone has their own prejudices.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 11:34 AM
Personally, I'd be disgusted to be attributed to a group of people with the same belief as mine whom were rascist or homophobic. Ah well, its all about tolerance I guess, and tolerance of those who believe the same thing comes just above basic human rights, it seems.
Tendarian
10-14-2003, 11:38 AM
I love when people say people are sheep or are brainwashed. Its the easy answer to why someone disagrees with you and is one Stray uses always.
You DO care about religion Stray no matter what you say. Look at all the crap you cut and pasted to prove you way of thinking. Me saying your intolerant isnt an attack on you. If it was i would have used names as well :)
Believing anyone who doesnt agree with you is stupid or just is a brainwashed sheep seems obnoxious to me. Im personally not religious at all i havent been to church in 12 years and dont plan on going anytime in the future. Do i think that they are sheep for believing? heck no if they find something that gives them a feeling of comfort great! Im happy and wish i had that as well.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 11:42 AM
I think anyone who hates gays because the bible tells him so, is brainwashed.
As for intolerance; do I go to your house's and start talking to you about religion, giving you a guilt trip about how I am living in sin? Do I stand outside of abortion clinics screaming at the poor women who go there to solve problems? Do I stop the use of condom's in Africa, a place already ripe with AIDs and others disease? No, I fucking well don't. But guess who does...
Weedmage Princess
10-14-2003, 11:45 AM
Hmm, maybe if you'd have actually READ one of MY earlier posts instead of just getting to the part where I said "I believe in God, I believe in Jesus" then stopping there, you'd know that I said I don't believe in organized religions, I believe my relationship with God is my own, and as far as your telling me not to "pick and choose which law to live by"...wow. You're really far gone there. I thought everyone had a right to live as they believe? I must have mixed it up..not live as you believe, live as Stray Rogue says. I'll keep that in mind.
Finally, "most Christians have a way of ignoring parts of the bible then striking out against people who don't follow the 10 commandmants." ....that comment ranks right up there with "most gays are this.." "most black people are that..." and other prejudicial, blanket stereotypes. Believe what you will, but just because someone believes in God and Jesus DOES NOT mean they walk around singing praise Jesus all day and trying to "preach to good word" to any and everyone they encounter. Nor do they necessarily go around telling everyone they're going to burn in Hell unless they do as they say. Do some do it? Sure. All? No. You're just as bad as the people who do it, though...and if you can't see that, then clearly your sentiments are rendering you blind to the massive BIGGOT you're coming off as.
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by Weedmage Princess]
Parkbandit
10-14-2003, 11:45 AM
I guess my problem with most religions is that they are too convenient. They will conveniently make 7 days = 10,000 years one day and then the next day try and tell you a day = 24 hours.
"In 6 days, God created heavens and the Earth, and then he made Man."
Ok, so... where were the dinosaurs in this picture?
"Oh, they were there the day between the Heaven's and the Earth and when he made man".
So, the dinosaurs were roaming the Earth for a day?
"No silly, a day back then equalled 20,000 years!"
Scientists tell us that the dinosaurs roamed the earth for 100,000 year though.
"Oh, that's what I meant.. a day back then equalled 100,000 years back then."
Uh huh. So, when again do you need 10% of my income again?
"Oh, tomorrow"
Great, I'll see you in 100,000 years then.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 11:48 AM
Bigot?! Whatever. I don't force this shit down peoples throats. I don't make life worse because of some belief. Religion does. I could careless what anyone believes, seriously, even if it is a fantastical story that is more akin to Tolkein than reality. Just do not force it into others lives, like you do.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Bigot?! Whatever. I don't force this shit down peoples throats. I don't make life worse because of some belief. Religion does. I could careless what anyone believes, seriously, even if it is a fantastical story that is more akin to Tolkein than reality. Just do not force it into others lives, like you do.
You are most certainly a bigot, Stray. Probably the most bigotted person here. Your vehement anti-religeous statements, namecalling, and complete lack of tolerance shine through in everything you say here. You keep coming back with statements about religeon being forced down your throat. Nobody here has tried to force religeon down your throat, nobody here has told you that you are going to hell if you don't belive. Yet you continually bring that up as an argument, and as an excuse to call everyone "Mindless Sheep". You are the one who is trying to force your anti-religeon sentiments down people's throats here. It isn't the other way around. Your lack of maturity, and inability to make any sort of statement without resorting to cursing, and name-calling pretty much shows that you lack the maturity for any sort of debate. You should have taken my advice earlier in this thread.
-Jack
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:00 PM
Again some moron whom failed to read actual facts and history. I respond to name calling retard. And yeah it is forced down my throat, nearly daily. Not by any of you, but by other zealous muppets who seem holy enough to deam my life a sin. Believe what you want, don't force it on others. Religion DOES THIS. If it didn't, I would not have a problem.
And I'll ask again, something you all fail to answer, just like the multitudes of points myself and others have made, If religion is so tolerant, why does it inspire hatred among people? Why does TOJ, because of the bible, hate gays? Is this someone you are proud to call a fellow believer?
Tendarian
10-14-2003, 12:03 PM
It isnt religion that causes people to hate. People hate because humans do that,its in their nature. And also in the human beings nature is to justify what is considered wrong so they point to this or that and religion is a convienent place to point.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:03 PM
I can post the exact line he used Tendarian, saying he hates gays because the Bible tells him too.
Tendarian
10-14-2003, 12:05 PM
Right and if there wasnt a bible he would say because of some other reason. Being different inspires hate and being gay isnt the norm.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:08 PM
You can't be sure of that. Just like in my IRA example, kids are raised on the hatred of protestants or catholics. Whether this is due to religion or religously social propeganda being put forth again and again over the generations, is anyones guess. But still, that kind of justification is terrible.
Religous nuts stand outside and protest abortions. WTF! Have any of you been down that road? What if you were raped and became pregnant women? Would you like to be called a sinful murderer? How about the pope, who calls using contraception a sin? Don't we have a population, STD, and AIDs problem already without him commanding his legions to add more salt to the wound?
Weedmage Princess
10-14-2003, 12:10 PM
*rereads her posts, searching for where she..or anyone for that matter, tried to force their belief's down Stray's throats*
Hmm, none of that to be found anywhere in this thread...
It's amusing (sad, but amusing) how you keep crying about people shoving their beliefs down your throat...when no one's saying anything to you or belitting you for what you believe, Stray. You don't believe in God and think religion is the downfall of the world? Fine. No one here has tried to change your mind, everyone's respected your beliefs. You don't seem to be capable of the same, despite your false claims that you are. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions, IE. all your posts insulting people who do believe in God, are speaking loud and clear...and do you know what they are SCREAMING? "I, Stray Rogue, am a closed minded BIGOT. " :)
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by Weedmage Princess]
So TheOtherJohn is intolerant gays, and justifies it by using the bible. That is his choice. The issue I have with this whole thread is your distinct lack of maturity when dealing with religeon. You are unable to post anything without at least one demeaning comment, or insult. You simply do not have the emotional maturity for a debate. His lack of tolerance for Gays is more than matched by your lack of tolerance for anyone who belives in God. Maybe in five or six years you'll grow up enough to participate in threads like this, but for now, I'd suggest you keep out of such discussions.
-Jack
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:12 PM
Erm, yeah they do thrust their opinions down my throat. Please read my threads Weedmage. You guys don't, but other religous nuts do.
And please, if religion is so great, why the fuck can't one of you answer any of my questions? Why do YOU descend to insults?
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:14 PM
Still not answering any of my questions are you jack, though most religions tend not to do this at all anyway. You think TOJ is not the only one who hates gays because of the bible? Does the bible not say gays will go to hell?
The word bigot is not being used as an insult here. It is being used as a statement of fact. You are extremely intollerant of anyone who does not belive the exact same thing that you do. If anyone disagrees with you, you begin frothing at the mouth, and pounding out insults. It's ridiculous, and it ruins the chance for a meaningful debate.
-Jack
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:17 PM
Why can't you answer my questions Jack? And as I've said, numerous times, if religion was tolerant, and didn't throw itself on everyone, I'd have no problem. But it does. And thats why I hate it.
I am agnostic at best, athiest at worst. I'm not here to answer your religeous questions. I never once stated my views on religeon one way or the other, because that is not my concern. My concern is your complete inability to participate in anything more than a third grade insult contest.
-Jack
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:19 PM
Obviously you aren't reading then are you? Too much masterbation makes you blind, remember. I only post with venom to idiots like you who glaze over the posts of meaning and pick on the shitty little nuances or typos. Hell, are you a GM???
Weedmage Princess
10-14-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Erm, yeah they do thrust their opinions down my throat. Please read my threads Weedmage. You guys don't, but other religous nuts do.
Thank you, Stray. That's all I wanted you to acknowledge...that NOT EVERYONE who believes in God thrusts their beliefs down your throat. You were saying we all do before.
As far as your complex questions about the bible, and questions about various relgions...as I've said, I don't believe in organized religion...and as pointed out numerous times before...the Bible WASNT written by God himself, but by man's hand. I've never read the entire Bible, just bits and pieces here, and I interpret it as best as I can, and go with that. Again, all personal and between God and I. I can't speak for others or what they believe however.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Obviously you aren't reading then are you? Too much masterbation makes you blind, remember. I only post with venom to idiots like you who glaze over the posts of meaning and pick on the shitty little nuances or typos. Hell, are you a GM???
There you go, name calling again. Why? Because you are incapable of anything better. Thank you for proving my point.
-Jack
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:22 PM
Thats fine Weedmage. I don't care what you believe, on a personal level. My beef is with religion. I think, and have always thought it is a nasty thing that breeds hate and violence. I am arguing that that is the case here. Jack, can't seem to acknowledge that.
I myself could be considered a Dualist (I believe in something other than the body and science being all encompassing).
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:24 PM
Exactly Jack, because you can and haven't brung anything to this discussion, beyond insults and name calling yourself. Pot, meet kettle.
Miss X
10-14-2003, 12:26 PM
I'm going to give my point of view, I hope I don’t offend anyone with my ideas as that is not my intention.
I don't believe that 'God' exists, a conclusion I have drawn from my studies, however I understand that just as I am sure of God's non-existence others are sure of his existence. No one deserves to be discriminated against because of their beliefs, ever.
I have the greatest respect for those people who are religious, and practice tolerance and respect towards others, however it would be ignorant to assume all those with faith are like that. It is a fact that some religious people feel it is their right to judge and discriminate against others because they believe they are going against the word of God. To those people I would say this: Keep practising your faith but stop actively hating others, if you truly believe these people will go to hell, then let your God judge them. Understand that you are neither God nor Gods representative and you have no right to judge or discriminate against anyone else, let your God handle it.
Of course, we cannot ignore the good things that religion, and religious organisations have done, charities like Christian aid have helped countless people. Religion itself has helped so many people find meaning in life, given them peace of mind, given them what they need in life.
None of us are in a position to judge others, unless we ourselves are the image of perfection. We have to understand that whether someone is atheist, agnostic or religious matters not. If you are tolerant, and show respect for others then you can be proud of your beliefs. However if you are ignorant enough to believe you have the right to judge and discriminate against others for what ever reason, you need to re-educate yourself before I, and countless others will ever have any respect for your views.
Vx
[Edited on 14-10-03 by Miss X]
Scott
10-14-2003, 12:30 PM
<<<I guess my problem with most religions is that they are too convenient. They will conveniently make 7 days = 10,000 years one day and then the next day try and tell you a day = 24 hours.>>>
God created earth in 7 days. 7 days could not possibly equal 24 hours as sunfall to sunset didn't exist because the earth was not created yet. When we say 1 day, it means normally means about a sunrise to sunrise. Which is why when I say 1 day, it means 24 hours, while when god says one day, it doesn't because there was no way to base time for god. (No, I have no idea the exact time and I don't believe anything any priest says simply because there would be know way to determine it.)
<<<"In 6 days, God created heavens and the Earth, and then he made Man."
Ok, so... where were the dinosaurs in this picture?>>>
It doesn't mention it there. The bible makes several references to "terrible lizards" and sea creatures. Several describe closely to what several fossils of dinosaurs show. "Dinosaur" means terrbible lizards too by the way.
<<<"Oh, they were there the day between the Heaven's and the Earth and when he made man".
So, the dinosaurs were roaming the Earth for a day?>>>
Day's do not equal 24 hours to GOD.
<<<"No silly, a day back then equalled 20,000 years!">>>
That's silly. It has nothing to do one time we say it's 24 hours, another 50 hours. The difference is when a person says 1 day, it normally means 24 hours. How does 1 day = sunrise to sunrise when it didn't exist since the earth wasn't created? When god makes claim to one day, there is no possible way it would be 24 hours. Is it 10 years? 1 week? I have no idea, but I can tell you that it is highly unlikely that a day to god would be the exact time it is for sunset to sunset on earth.
<<<<Scientists tell us that the dinosaurs roamed the earth for 100,000 year though.
Oh, that's what I meant.. a day back then equalled 100,000 years back then.">>>
See above.
<<<Uh huh. So, when again do you need 10% of my income again?>>>
I go to church maybe 4 times a year. Not everyone gives 10%, but for something that gives you spiritual guidence, a place to stay if you get thrown out onto the street, enjoyment in your life, it's not a huge price to pay. People spend at least 10% of their salary on a car or a house. They both give you something in return, it's your choice what you think is more important to you. If you give 0% of your money, the church doesn't throw you out on the street. You have a right to do what you want, and money pays to keep the church their so you can visit it when you have too.
<<<"Oh, tomorrow"
Great, I'll see you in 100,000 years then.>>>
Once again, see above.
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by Gemstone101]
draconis nematoda
10-14-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Now you are just being silly.
Science is a wonderful thing. Albinos aside, there lacks any evidence that Caucasian man walked among the residents of pre-roman occupied Middle-East or Africa. The archaeological record just does not exist.
Bone structure, DNA, and in this case ... REGION are very indicative to race, despite our DNA only having a 1% variation. We only have a 1% variation when compared to a slug or even mold.
Mitochondrial DNA only disproves your "blue-skin" analogy. Look at the aboriginal population of Africa. Look at your parents, grand parents. It's not illogical to assume that if your parents, grand parents, and as far back as you care to look, are white ... you will also be white.
Apple trees don't produce oranges unless you graft an orange tree branch to the apple tree. Archaeological research hasn't found any orange tree branches yet, so my argument stands.
http://custance.org/old/earlyman/ch4v.html
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:40 PM
Personally, I am one to believe the scientifically proven Mitachondrial Eve theory.
Ravenstorm
10-14-2003, 12:42 PM
Wow. Go to sleep and the vitriol just keeps rising like a bread with too much yeast in it. So let me jump back into the fray.
First, Stray, I did not in fact post that /most/ Christians do anything. Nor did my friend whom I quoted post about /most/ Christians. In fact, he stated It's just that the psycho morons like to forget that now and then. Note that 'psycho morons' refer to the people screaming about Leviticus.
Second, dude... I totally understand where you're coming from. Really. Like I said, I might react similarly if I were in your situation. It's totally understandable to reject something when you have such a bad example of it in your face. But you do need to calm down. You're being just as prejudiced as what you're ranting against. Listen to someone who's 'on your side'.
You're painting everyone religious with a single large brush which is no different from any other form of prejudice. I counted two, maybe three, people who are anti gay and responded: ToJ being one of them. Everyone else has condemned that so-called reverend. To say that just because they believe in God and some bigot believes in God then they're the same is just way wrong.
You can't even compare Weedmage Princess and Edine because they their religious beliefs are focused quite differently. And neither has displayed any degree of intolerance. Referencing the other thread, Sintik - who obviously is religious - agreed with Peam that gays should be allowed to marry civilly and leave the religious vows to the individual religion to decide on.
You're coming off more prejudiced, more bigoted, more rabid than almost anyone else in the two threads (not including the above mentioned two or three). So really, calm down. Not one person has played the 'going to hell' card. The majority of the pro religious crowd has been civil, polite, and reasonable even on points they disagree with.
You don't HAVE to respond to every single thing you disagree with. Ignore it. If you don't like someone, ignore their posts in full.
And on a last point, you can't say all Christians are the same. Aside from how wrong that is it's just... well, wrong. Factually. Remember the Episcopalian Church appointing a gay bishop? You can bet that's something the Catholic church would never do. Further, you can't compare Christianity with Buddhism, the various forms of paganism, etc all of which fall under the heading 'religion'.
So take a deep breath and relax. You have some decent points but they're being lost in all the hatred.
Raven
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 12:48 PM
OK, I've been asked to name why I feel religion has been forced and is forced down my neck, specifically. Here's my list. Please note, only in very few cases do I look down on anyone for being religious. I merely do not agree with its concept of control, nor its effect it has upon people. If you are taken in by its promises, thats your choice, just like it is my choice to feel the way I feel about it. Anyway.
At school, we had to say the Lord's prayer daily, as well as sing an hours worth of hymns. People not participating to their maximum were ejected from class. We also had to attend the church once every term. Attendance was compulsory.
We were taught the bible, instead of science, as fact.
Today, I got two letters proclaiming that Jesus loves me. A few days back someone knocked at my door asking me to pay pittance to a local church.
At a recent music festival, groups of religous protesters blocked the entrances and exits claiming our music to be "of the devil". Those who managed to gain entrance went about the weekend screaming and hollaring how we were all going to burn for heeding Lucifers word.
I walk through town, on the steps of our Town hall, with a loud speeker, cries a man about how Jesus is our only saviour.
I turn on the TV. Songs of Praise greets me.
I go shopping only to a few weeks later discover the place I had just visited was bombed killing dozens and wounding hundreds, due to the IRA's annoyance with the peace talks.
This goes on and on.
I console my friend, whom can't marry a white guy she loves, as her marriage has been arranged for her.
I console my friend whom has had a baby at 19, whose religous father would not let her have an abortion.
It is why I feel religion is a bad thing. While others have correctly stated why it can be a good thing, I still feel the bad far-outweigh the good.
[Edited on 14-10-03 by StrayRogue]
Parkbandit
10-14-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Obviously you aren't reading then are you? Too much masterbation makes you blind, remember.
BULLSHIT!
I have almost perfect vision.
Parkbandit
10-14-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
<<<I guess my problem with most religions is that they are too convenient. They will conveniently make 7 days = 10,000 years one day and then the next day try and tell you a day = 24 hours.>>>
God created earth in 7 days. 7 days could not possibly equal 24 hours as sunfall to sunset didn't exist because the earth was not created yet. When we say 1 day, it means normally means about a sunrise to sunrise. Which is why when I say 1 day, it means 24 hours, while when god says one day, it doesn't because there was no way to base time for god. (No, I have no idea the exact time and I don't believe anything any priest says simply because there would be know way to determine it
If on day 1, God created the Heavens and the Earth... wouldn't he be able to then figure out what a day is? If it's required to have a sunrise.. poof.. that was on Day one.
PS - I KNEW someone would use the sunrise thing... heh.
Bestatte
10-14-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Erm, yeah they do thrust their opinions down my throat. Please read my threads Weedmage. You guys don't, but other religous nuts do.
And please, if religion is so great, why the fuck can't one of you answer any of my questions? Why do YOU descend to insults?
...but other religious nuts do.
That's just nasty Stray. I'm assuming you have a fairly decent command of american english grammar and sentence structure. And assuming this, I infer by your post that you believe everyone here to also be religious nuts, since you mentioned "other" religious nuts.
In order for there to be others, there must be some. Other is a comparative pronoun and adjective and must be offset by some, or one. This one, that one, the other one. These, those, others.
I am not a religious nut. I am, at best, an animist. At worst, an agnostic. I don't belong to any church or temple, nor do I subscribe to any particular dogma.
Further, by putting "all" in your opinion of religions, you must therefore have an amazing knowledge of "all" religions to have come to your conclusions.
What do you know of Zoroastra? How about the Rosicruceans? Ever check out the Nihilists? Or what about the Anarchist Front? Maybe you'd be interested in looking into the Tao, or the Sufi. Then there's the Pagans, which comprise dozens of dozens of organized -and- unorganized sects and varieties. Have you studied every fucking one of these things in ordered for you to conclude that ALL religions suck?
Hell, do you even have the faintest idea of what MY religion involves? No, of course you don't. You can't. I made it up, and I haven't told anyone the details. And you're not allowed to join. So there.
edited because "other" isn't a noun, as I originally posted.
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by Bestatte]
Warriorbird
10-14-2003, 01:22 PM
:feels this strange urge to post JTHM pics:
Weedmage Princess
10-14-2003, 01:25 PM
JTHM?
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 01:30 PM
Still waiting for people to counter my actual points, and not my spelling and choice of words.
Oh, check this out as well while you are at it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3189742.stm
Warriorbird
10-14-2003, 01:31 PM
Johnny The Homicidal Maniac. When Johnny goes to Heaven, he sees God, who's in fact a cute little God, who likes to sleep and doesn't want to be bothered by the world. People up in Heaven also have head explody, but, that's not really the point here.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 01:34 PM
JTHM rules.
Dighn Darkbeam
10-14-2003, 02:25 PM
Well....I read all nine pages of the post..The damned thing started with 7 and kept growing.
Personal Beliefs - I tried to be an Existential Nihilist but in application it really sucks the fun out of life. I will go with Agnostic. Sometimes its best best not to find the answers you seek.
The Bible - Was written by man. I havent met one person who wouldnt atleast admit to that. Man tends to fuck up just about anything he touches. Im sure he had no problem with this one.
Homosexuality - For a long time I felt a vicious hate towards gays. My feelings didnt stem from religion or my parents/friends beliefs. I felt then and do now a natural disgust when seeing or hearing about homosexuality. Eventually I realized that putting in the effort to actively hate gay people was idiotic. If you dont approve of something, but it isnt hurting you, its in your best interest to ignore it.
Strayrogue - I agree with alot of what you said, and used to sound exactly like you when discussing religion. Dont use vulgarity in your posts unless its for humor's sake. Your emotions cloud what your are trying to say.
Know that you will never change these peoples minds once they have reached a certain point. I realize that may not be your intention, but you atleast want them to view your arguments impartially. Never let anyone tell you your beliefs regarding religion are wrong, though in turn never claim that anyone elses are incorrect either. You can never totally disprove anything, especially concerning religion.
I think a quote poignant to this discussion is "Perception is 9/10ths of reality."
Take from that what you will.
[Edited on 10-14-2003 by Dighn Darkbeam]
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 02:42 PM
Still waiting for any of you to say how religion is NOT thrown in my face every day. You can't. Still waiting for any of you to say how religion doesn't cause wars, hate, discrimation and pain.
As for most don't. Yeah, I'll stand by that. I bet very few people stick to the word of the bible. Very few indeed.
Tendarian
10-14-2003, 02:49 PM
Did you go to religious private school or somethin? What you describe seems a bit extreme for public school. Granted ive never been to the UK or gone to school there so i have no idea.
Everything else i mean come on. I could say the same thing about other things too. Like for instance scantily clad women. They are all over the place on tv walking around and all that. It doesnt make them a bad thing,least for me anyway.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 02:52 PM
No, I'd call my school definately one of the norms in the 80's. I eventually got my parents to complain when I would not sing any hymns or refuse to say the prayer (I was losing grades because of this).
As for scantily clad women...I wish they would come knocking at my door.
Tendarian
10-14-2003, 02:54 PM
Wow thats crazy,are the schools different there now? Are all schools in the UK basically private religious schools even now? Thats actually pretty scary to me.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 02:57 PM
It wasn't a private school. They have changed alot. Religion, thank fuck, is slowly being phased out all over the country, in all facets. We have Church attendance at an all time low, and if they pulled the same shit with making us sing hymns that they did in the 80's...well, heads would roll. But it is sort of still a factor in some schools.
My High school still made you go to church twice a year. Some, if not all the private schools I've read about are also of a very religious bent.
Drew2
10-14-2003, 03:20 PM
This is slightly off topic, but I hear Texas is making Elementary schools say the pledge again everyday. Isn't part of the pledge "One nation, under god..." ? Wouldn't that be putting religion in public schools? I dunno.
The supreme court's reviewing it next year, Tayre.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=558&e=1&u=/ap/20031014/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_pledge_of_allegiance
The phrase "under God" wasn't in the pledge until 1954. I'd see no problem in taking it out again, myself.
Ravenstorm
10-14-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogueOh, check this out as well while you are at it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3189742.stm
This doesn't prove your point at all, actually.
What this article says is that SOME religious leaders are intolerant and unaccepting while some OTHER religious leaders can be very tolerant and accepting.
I find that that article, and the entire 'gay bishop' thing to be a sign of progress. After all, a majority of the American Episcopalian bishops who voted on whether to accept Robinson or not voted FOR him. You concentrate on the ones who oppose the very idea. Instead, look to those in favor of it.
The moral of the story is: it is possible to be accepting, compassionate and tolerant and still be religious. As many people here have been saying. Don't lump everyone into the same category.
Raven
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 03:28 PM
The point was, people are actually fighting it Raven, when in this day and age, it should be accepted withouth even a second thought.
Dighn Darkbeam
10-14-2003, 03:31 PM
The phrase "under God" wasn't in the pledge until 1954. I'd see no problem in taking it out again, myself. >>
Its odd. I probably feel the same way about the pledge of allegiance as some people feel about their christian faith.
I remember the day we stopped saying the Pledge in class, there was no explination for it. It was a very sad day for me.
Bestatte
10-14-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Still waiting for any of you to say how religion is NOT thrown in my face every day. You can't. Still waiting for any of you to say how religion doesn't cause wars, hate, discrimation and pain.
As for most don't. Yeah, I'll stand by that. I bet very few people stick to the word of the bible. Very few indeed.
So, when was the last time you went to the Board of Education and demanded that you be allowed to attend school on Christmas? When was the last time you insisted on working on Sunday, and NOT getting paid time and a half for it?
Have you ever gone into a supermarket and threatened to stop shopping there if they didn't remove their easter decorations?
Or - do you instead take advantage of Christmas day off from school? Or was glad you didn't have to work Sundays? Or got those eggs at a reduced holiday price?
Religion exists. Capitalism takes advantage of it. The world goes round and round. Religion is thrust at you in a myriad of ways, and it doesn't take a fanatic fundamentalist to do it. Personally, I hate christian-based holiday music in stores during the holiday season. I LOVE winter music - like Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire, and Walking in a Winter Wonderland, etc. etc.
And even though I don't like having it thrust on me, I also happen to like the "fairy tale" of the Little Drummer Boy, and I absolutely LOVE the Hallelujah Chorus. But I prefer to hear it when I wanna hear it, and not every time I step out of my house.
I'm not going to even pretend to claim that they're trying to indoctrinate me. I know better than that, and they know that it won't work anyway. I just put up with it for the most part, grumble on occasion, and if it happens in the workplace, I'll make a stink.
But I'm not gonna play hypocrite and claim that I hate religion while taking home my sunday overtime. Instead, I'll just say I don't see any point in organized religion, though I appreciate that some people enjoy it, and leave it at that.
You might try doing the same. It'll save you from having to invest in heartburn medicine for all the angtst this is obviously causing you.
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 03:51 PM
Erm, I do work on Xmas and on Sundays.
Ravenstorm
10-14-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
The point was, people are actually fighting it Raven, when in this day and age, it should be accepted withouth even a second thought.
I don't disagree. But even as little as 20 years ago, it wouldn't be an issue because it wouldn't ever have happened. Finally, some religious institutions are starting to step out of the Middle Ages. They deserve some praise for being willing to look at things in a new light. Not scorn for not doing it fast enough to suit you. It was very brave of them to do what they thought was right KNOWING what the inevitable reaction would be. Change doesn't come over night.
Raven
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 03:52 PM
As for making demands on people, MY ENTIRE POINT is that this is what religion does. Not me. I don't knock on your door and call you a sinner. I don't protest outside your music festivals calling you the devils children. I don't bomb shopping complexes because you have taken away my guns. Religous people however...
StrayRogue
10-14-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Ravenstorm Change doesn't come over night.
Raven
Yes, but its not overnight. Homosexuality has been part of our cultures for millenia.
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Still waiting for any of you to say how religion is NOT thrown in my face every day. You can't. Still waiting for any of you to say how religion doesn't cause wars, hate, discrimation and pain.
As for most don't. Yeah, I'll stand by that. I bet very few people stick to the word of the bible. Very few indeed.
I live in the Bible Belt. Religion is thrown in my face most days. (sometimes I don't leave the house :D) My father and one of my sisters worry about my soul. I tell them... no need to worry... I'm not worried. They do this because they love me so I don't get upset when they do. I just tell them don't worry about me. However, I don't tell them their beliefs are wrong. They give them comfort. I wouldn't take that away from them in any fashion.
When I used to work and the talk turned to religion I would either leave the area or just stay quiet. I feel what I believed was nobody's business but my own.
I really don't think it's religion itself that causes wars, discrimination, hate, pain, etc... It is the lack of being able to be objective and look at it from another's point of view. It is the lack of showing respect for what another does believe and just accepting that you will never see eye to eye. (I realize I'm simplifying it a bit) Many people like to hide behind religion to commit horrible acts. I've even found that I've questioned myself if I'm bigoted because I feel prejudiced against those that are prejudiced. (if that makes sense) I found I just had to 'let it go' in my mind and learn to live the way I think is right for me. This doesn't mean I won't stand up for someone's rights if I see them being wronged.
One thing confuses me about your posts Stray. You seem to get upset if people interpret the Bible literally. However, you get upset also when those that have said they are religious but they pick and choose things from the Bible that give them comfort... like that is wrong too. (though I have to admit there have been so many posts... correct me if I'm mistaken) I couldn't imagine having to go through what you do where you live. It's hard enough where I live if you're not a Christian... but having to live with daily fears of bombings because of intolerance is a nightmare I wouldn't wish on anyone.
This is one reason I really don't like discussing religion. It is such a personal thing and very different for each individual.
Oh, and as far as people coming to my door to talk to me about religion... if I don't know you... I'm not answering my door. (this goes for everyone and even some people I do know) Peepholes are great!
Vesi
GSLeloo
10-14-2003, 06:56 PM
I still hold my same belief. You are free to make any choice you want but you live with the consequences. If you are raised in a family that is a member of a cult and you become a member, it's still your choice and any action you do is yours. This is related right back to Ireland, they choose their own paths.
Want an example? Kobe Bryant, in Newsweek it seems as if they're defending him and excusing him because of how he grew up and how that shaped who he is. But if he raped her, it was still his choice.
Religion in general is a choice. I choose not to believe, others choose to and I think we all have to respect that choice. And for the war thing, religion is the scapegoat people use to justify their actions. Just like Bush used 9/11 to justify Iraq.
Geoff
10-15-2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by GSLeloo
I still hold my same belief. You are free to make any choice you want but you live with the consequences. If you are raised in a family that is a member of a cult and you become a member, it's still your choice and any action you do is yours. This is related right back to Ireland, they choose their own paths.
Want an example? Kobe Bryant, in Newsweek it seems as if they're defending him and excusing him because of how he grew up and how that shaped who he is. But if he raped her, it was still his choice.
Religion in general is a choice. I choose not to believe, others choose to and I think we all have to respect that choice. And for the war thing, religion is the scapegoat people use to justify their actions. Just like Bush used 9/11 to justify Iraq.
Whoa....
So you think the people you're raised by and/or grow to respect and look up to have no influence on how you form the opinions you base your future decisions on?
I could make my 4 year old son hate short girls with red hair with enough time, and the mother he loves with all his heart would fit that group.
You, (and some others in this thread) underestimate the abillity of socialization and conditioning. I think the majority of people feel what they're "taught" to feel. There isn't some universal common sense the general population will inevitably bow to. If there was, we'd all be very happy.
If you need an example other than religion, look to the military. There's a reason why recruits are deprived sleep while being fed very basic tenets that will change the way they think about authority, it works and they start obeying orders before thinking about them. That's not a bad thing most of the time but it could be abused.
Religion is the same way. If it's treated the wrong way and indocrinated correctly, you can get whatever behavior you want.
I spent 8 years in Catholic school (God, I just automatically capitalized "Catholic".) and I've also been thru basic. Not a lot of difference except for the time period...
It kills me to agree (somewhat) with Stay but I think religion has caused more harm historically than good and when it comes to the zealots of any religion, they'll always be too extreme and always have more willing new recruits than can be displaced by common sense.
/religios rant
GSLeloo
10-15-2003, 12:45 PM
I am fully aware that how you grow up does affect how you act. But it does not excuse your actions. If we are to say that how we are raised makes us who we are, then I would be a pot smoking hippie that doesn't care about school and goes to a protestant church. That is the basis of my parents raising me when I was about 4.
But I had the right to choose my own path and I do not smoke pot, do not go to church, put all my effort into school. My father is a vegetarian, that didn't make me one even though they tried to push it onto us. My mother smokes, I don't. So yes, to a point your environment affects you but there are still two huge factors that have to be considered. One is free will and the other is your personality.
Tsa`ah
10-15-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
It doesn't mention it there. The bible makes several references to "terrible lizards" and sea creatures. Several describe closely to what several fossils of dinosaurs show. "Dinosaur" means terrible lizards too by the way.
Again, please point to where it mentions "terrible lizards".
This is a break down of translation. You accept the "terrible lizards" were described in the Torah.
Dinosauria/us is a Latin based word derived from a Greek word. deinos (monstrous) sauros (lizard). Since it is widely accepted that the Torah was originally put to pulp in Hebrew and/or Aramaic, the translation is on par with Jehovah.
Originally posted by draconis nematoda
http://custance.org/old/earlyman/ch4v.html
Now instead of pointing to a link that leads to the summations of a heavily biased Christian, that is very outdated and disproved, why not put it into your own words?
Most of this guy's footnotes are dated pre-1950. Hardly the spearhead of genetic research.
The cradle of humanity was at one time believed to be Asia Minor/Middle-East.
The author takes his stance simply due to the lack of evidence that prevailed during his era. Discoveries have been made since that more or less discredit Custance.
He was hardly scientific and rarely even used scientific method. It's unfortunate, he was an intelligent person yet he could not accept immutable facts outside of his own belief structure.
Now, support yourself with your words.
StrayRogue
10-15-2003, 02:26 PM
How did people in biblical ages even know of the existence of Dinosaurs?
Scott
10-15-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
How did people in biblical ages even know of the existence of Dinosaurs?
That's the point :grin: Dinosaurs weren't laying around on the ground and feeding were they? But they were describe in the bible. I don't feel like looking it up (I honestly can't give yout he script and verse) cause I don't want to start a GOOGLE war with anyone more then it has become, but I know there are some references to dinosaurs in the bible. They didn't say DINOSAUR cause the word didn't exist, but they describe creatures that were determined the be extinct before man arrived.....
Let's go a different way on this for the evolutionists/science people. Where did people come from? Apes? Where did apes come from? Through the evolution of earth. Where did the earth come from? Energy. Where did Energy come from? The big bang? Where did the energy come from in the big bang? Ummm I don't know. How did that spec of energy get there that caused the big bang? How was it put there? Things don't just pop up out of nowhere, so how did that energy get there? There was nothing before that, so how did it get there?
Halfsilver
10-15-2003, 02:39 PM
You're totally right, Sintik.
That's exactly how I think of it.
Or in my earlier post...One about the universe being limited and in the shape of a soccer ball (there's a link there if anyone is interested) What is on the outside of our soccerball? Where did that intensely compressed ball of elements that birthed our universe in the 'big bang' come from? And for that matter what was it floating in? Nothingness? what?
-grays/d
Scott
10-15-2003, 02:43 PM
I'm not saying I'm totally right. But I hate hearing the stupid thing "Well religion is all faith and this is scientifically proven." It isn't. No scientist can tell me where they big ball of energy that exploded into millions of stars and planets came from. I don't believe in evolution, and no, evolution isn't proven either. Everything everyone believes in is based on faith, whether it be God, or whether it's the big bang/evolution things, nobody can prove either.
EDIT: I mean Evolution of apes into humans. Evolution takes place every day.....
[Edited on 10-15-2003 by Gemstone101]
Tsa`ah
10-15-2003, 02:46 PM
I'm sorry Sintik, I have to throw the BS flag up here.
I've read the Torah in Hebrew, Yiddish, and English. I have yet to come across detailed description of animals, let alone Dinosaurs.
You indicated that these were described as "terrible lizards". I believe I already posted why that is not accurate and is at best a break down between translations.
No googles on my part, sorry to disappoint you. As part of my college education, I was required to take more than a couple of semesters of Latin and Greek (med term filler as it were). I was taught Hebrew in unison with English. I could read Hebrew before I could even write in English. Yiddish sucks for me, but I can stumble along.
This is just exemplary of how erroneous information and uneducated translations are taken as truths.
The world was flat once upon a time. Then... a miracle occurred.
StrayRogue
10-15-2003, 02:51 PM
Yes, they were written of in the bible. The bible, as you've said, was written by Man. How did they write about something they didn't know of?
Scott
10-15-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I've read the Torah in Hebrew, Yiddish, and English. I have yet to come across detailed description of animals, let alone Dinosaurs.
With that statement alone, I suggest you read the bible a few more times in a few other languages.
[Edited on 10-15-2003 by Gemstone101]
Ravenstorm
10-15-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
Things don't just pop up out of nowhere, so how did that energy get there? There was nothing before that, so how did it get there?
The same can be asked about God. If everything has to have a cause then so does some mythical deity.
I myself don't have any answer to the ultimate 'cause of everything'. Hence my calling myself agnostic. But if 'God' could always have been then so could that energy you refer to.
Raven
Scott
10-15-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Originally posted by Gemstone101
Things don't just pop up out of nowhere, so how did that energy get there? There was nothing before that, so how did it get there?
The same can be asked about God. If everything has to have a cause then so does some mythical deity.
I myself don't have any answer to the ultimate 'cause of everything'. Hence my calling myself agnostic. But if 'God' could always have been then so could that energy you refer to.
Raven
That's my point. Everything is based on faith. You can't prove it either way.
Ravenstorm
10-15-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
That's my point. Everything is based on faith. You can't prove it either way.
Faith doesn't enter the picture. I don't pretend to know or believe one way or another. I'm just willing to admit I don't know and wait till someone presents enough evidence to convince me.
And to put my two cents into the dinosaur argument... You made a claim, he disagreed. It's up to you to back up your claim especially as the qualifications he gave are betetr than yours. Unless you just want to devolve to 'I don't have to prove what I say. I have faith'. Of course, since you claim it's in there, you shoudl be able to find it so don't need to play the faith card.
Raven
Scott
10-15-2003, 03:30 PM
<<<Faith doesn't enter the picture. I don't pretend to know or believe one way or another. I'm just willing to admit I don't know and wait till someone presents enough evidence to convince me. >>>
I'm talking about people who believe the world started for X reason. It's all faith if you think the world started this way or that way.
<<<And to put my two cents into the dinosaur argument... You made a claim, he disagreed. It's up to you to back up your claim especially as the qualifications he gave are betetr than yours. Unless you just want to devolve to 'I don't have to prove what I say. I have faith'. Of course, since you claim it's in there, you shoudl be able to find it so don't need to play the faith card.>>>
His qualifications are bull shit. Nobody would ever make the claim that animals are not described in the bible if they read the bible 3 times in 3 different languages. The dinosaur debate is based on interpretation, it doesn't say "Dinosaurs were around." It desribes large scaly animals with huge tails and stuff like that. I really can't remember the entire thing. Anyone who claims those qualifications and says "I have yet to come across detailed description of animals, let alone Dinosaurs" isn't telling the truth.
[Edited on 10-15-2003 by Gemstone101]
StrayRogue
10-15-2003, 03:35 PM
I ask again, how could it describe dinosaurs, if it was written by men, and by your own admission and scientific fact, dinosaurs were not known of in that age?
Scott
10-15-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
I ask again, how could it describe dinosaurs, if it was written by men, and by your own admission and scientific fact, dinosaurs were not known of in that age?
Sorry I missed your first post.
It was written by both God and men. The statement "the bible was written by man" is not entirely accurate as god was part of writing the bible. I can't tell you what part he took whether it be inspiration or intervention, but he was a part in writing the bible which would be why dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible.
[Edited on 10-15-2003 by Gemstone101]
StrayRogue
10-15-2003, 03:44 PM
Ok, if God wrote the bible, why is it full of contradictions? And if he did actually do it, why did he write that Gays were people living in sin? Why would such an uber being as a God choose such a dis-advanced way of conveying his message? Why has he not updated it since?
Scott
10-15-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Ok, if God wrote the bible, why is it full of contradictions?
God HELPED write the bible. Also it's very hard to say the bible is full on contradictions in English. Translation changes a lot of things since many words have more then one meaning.
And if he did actually do it, why did he write that Gays were people living in sin?
Because he belives that homosexuality is wrong? Why do you believe it's right?
Why would such an uber being as a God choose such a dis-advanced way of conveying his message?
The bible? Millions and millions of people believe in a god. Why would god have to convey his message when the bible is doing that already? God has laid out his beliefs for you, if you don't believe them then that's fine. I don't think he has to more then what he's done.
Why has he not updated it since?
I honestly can't tell you, you'd have to ask him. My guess would be that the beliefs in the bible still stand and there is nothing to change.... But I don't know.
[Edited on 10-15-2003 by Gemstone101]
Tsa`ah
10-15-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
With that statement alone, I suggest you read the bible a few more times in a few other languages.
Now you are just begging the question. So let's just continue shall we?
Mankind has discovered fossils of a wide variety of animals and plants from various eras that dinosaurs roamed. These range from small roaches and mosquitoes to massive sauropods, yet no human remains have been found that can be dated to those specific eras.
Yet you say they are described in the Bible. I've read the Torah in three different languages and have not discovered such scripture. You can't point it out. I could re-read each version again, for the countless time, and it still won't be there.
I'm asking for something very simple here, a verse. Tell me where the verse(s} are located and I'll dig out my Hebrew Torah and we'll do a comparison. It's relatively easy.
Scott
10-15-2003, 04:01 PM
Job 40:15-24
imported_Kranar
10-15-2003, 04:06 PM
Muslims believe that God did update the bible and wrote the Qu'ran.
The Qu'ran, unlike the Bible, is claimed to be the actual word of God, as in God authored it. It's written formally, so God never refers to himself as "I" or as a man or woman or anything.
That's why if you read the Qu'ran, it refers to Christ, to Moses, to all the prophets of the past and to those who came after Christ, but it ends with Mohammed for he was told that he would be the last prophet to walk the earth before the second coming of Christ.
When the true word of God is lost, that is to say... when the Qu'ran becomes perverted and the source of Islam is lost, then and only then will Christ return. But until that time comes there's no need for any prophet since according to Islam the one and only source nessecary to live a virtuous life exists within the Qu'ran.
Parkbandit
10-15-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101Let's go a different way on this for the evolutionists/science people. Where did people come from? Apes? Where did apes come from? Through the evolution of earth. Where did the earth come from? Energy. Where did Energy come from? The big bang? Where did the energy come from in the big bang? Ummm I don't know. How did that spec of energy get there that caused the big bang? How was it put there? Things don't just pop up out of nowhere, so how did that energy get there? There was nothing before that, so how did it get there?
Well, shit... must have been a super power being that started it all! I can't explain it.. and some God figure works perfectly in this senario! There MUST be a God then.. because we don't know the answer!
People have a need to know answers... when they don't know, they create an answer. Back in the early times, we didn't know why the sun rose and set everyday.. so we invented Apollo, the Sun god! There's the explanation!
We can look back at most Roman and Greek gods and think how silly they were to think of such things.. yet we do the same thing even to this day. We invent a being because we simply don't know for sure how the earth was created... we can't be sure how life evolved... a nicely packaged "God" enables us to answer those questions.
imported_Kranar
10-15-2003, 04:14 PM
How does having a God allow us to answer those questions exactly?
Scott
10-15-2003, 04:17 PM
Can you tell me what this means to Tsa'ah?
[Edited on 10-15-2003 by Gemstone101]
Parkbandit
10-15-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
That's my point. Everything is based on faith. You can't prove it either way.
Once it is proven, the God or Gods change. We proved why the sun rises and sets... why the ocean has tides... what causes the seasons...
One by one, the things we created to explain those unknown things were stripped away.
I believe we proved how life evolved on this planet... The stories will change one day I am sure of the beginning of the world. It will be something like "God created life on the planet and enabled it to evolve and adapt to it's environment throughout the ages" No longer will the Bible preach that Everyone was decended from Adam and Eve that he created because too many people would believe otherwise.
Evolution is a theory. Not proven at all.
StrayRogue
10-15-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by peam
Evolution is a theory. Not proven at all.
That is why I don't try to argue with these people. Answers for everthing, even when they have no proof for it.
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