WTF is the Iranian president thinking?

[Apotheosis]

Ok, I can't really keep silent any longer, not that I've been meaning to speak out on it or anything, but just about every week, the president of Iran has been making one inflammatory statement after another regarding Europe, the U.S., and of course, Israel.

All I have to ask is, what is he thinking? Does he really want to push the entire middle east region into a war? Isn't it bad enough that A> there's a conflict in Iraq, and B> The situation between the Israeli's and the Palestinians is pretty much at it's worst point yet.



I'm almost to the point where I really really wouldn't feel bad if Iran was nuked tomorrow.

[Fission]

Today's gems included calling the holocaust a myth, suggesting Israel be moved to Europe or North America, and saying they'd push their nuclear agenda no matter what.

All to the standard cries of 'Death to America, Israel, etc.,' of course.

Crazy stuff.

[Warriorbird]

He's thinking it plays a nice counterpoint with America's actions in the region I'm sure. I bet his popularity has risen.

[TheEschaton]

I'm thinking he's thinking, "Man, I really hate Jews."


-TheE-

[ElanthianSiren]

Well, he's probably thinking that after Iraq, America looks like the little boy who cried wolf and very little will happen to him (as little has happened to him thus far); The Iraq war has cost the united states quite a bit of credibility in the eyes of nations that would be our allies in a war with the middle east, and the countries that stayed out of the Iraq war can now say "we were right, no WMDs".

Further, I don't have figures, but I'm sure he has considered what percentage of our troops are required to keep order in Iraq and Afghanistan; with that figure in mind, he's considered that a military strike there would either be 1. out of the question with current conditions or 2. make him a martyr to other countries in the middle east that may or may not harbour anti-american sentiment. Like WB mentioned, he is taking gambles and making these statements because it makes him look like a better leader to a country that does not view American policies favourably.

-M

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Well, he's probably thinking that after Iraq, America looks like the little boy who cried wolf and very little will happen to him (as little has happened to him thus far); The Iraq war has cost the united states quite a bit of credibility in the eyes of nations that would be our allies in a war with the middle east, and the countries that stayed out of the Iraq war can now say "we were right, no WMDs".

100% my opinion also.



Further, I don't have figures, but I'm sure he has considered what percentage of our troops are required to keep order in Iraq and Afghanistan; with that figure in mind, he's considered that a military strike there would either be 1. out of the question with current conditions or 2. make him a martyr to other countries in the middle east that may or may not harbour anti-american sentiment. Like WB mentioned, he is taking gambles and making these statements because it makes him look like a better leader to a country that does not view American policies favourably.

-M
I agree with you mostly except for perhaps an issue with the word "strike".

A military strike is the easiest thing in the world for the US armed forces. We could probably inflict a huge strike tonight if they wanted. The international outcry with the US reputation at perhaps its lowest point since before world war II is what he is betting will keep us from conducting any such actions.

It's the peacekeeping or nationbuilding that takes a huge number of troops and time and effort not to mention money that the US does not at the moment have a great interest in becoming involved in.

[Sean of the Thread]

The U.S. could fuck them up with little consequence at any point. That jack ass needs to stop riling up dem natives.


Don't they know Chuck Norris is 1/8th Iranian?? Not because of his heritage.. its because he ate a fucking Iranian!

[ElanthianSiren]

I meant a continuous onslaught and a change to the infrastructure of their government; it seems reasonable to say that we don't have the man power for that.

Also, we are not completely priveledged as to Iran's nuclear capabilities. They may only have nuclear material for power, as they claim, or they may not, as we claim. I'm not sure Bush wants to broach the possibility of a nuclear war; he didn't seem to want to with N. Korea either, which may be setting a tone here.

-M

[DeV]

Originally posted by Xyelin
The U.S. could fuck them up with little consequence at any point. We could potentially fuck up anyone. There is always consequence though.

[Apotheosis]

It's not just the US who doesn't appreciate Iran's apparent candor.


Strangely enough, Germany, and other EU countries are not too happy about this either.


(and before someone inserts a smart ass comment, I'll do it myself. "Ha ha ha, probably because Iran is suggesting that they send the Jewish people to Europe." ) Ummm, No.

[Edited on 12-14-0505 by Yswithe]

[4a6c1]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Xyelin
The U.S. could fuck them up with little consequence at any point. We could potentially fuck up anyone. There is always consequence though.

They dont need a military.

Their trade capabilties are impressive enough so that we should all lube up our asses and open our mouths.

[Edited on 12-14-2005 by JihnasSpirit]

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Xyelin
The U.S. could fuck them up with little consequence at any point. We could potentially fuck up anyone. There is always consequence though.

I said little consequence.

[DeV]

Noted. I think the consequence is always great when it comes to countries exerting force over each other. The ramifications though direct or indirect are always far reaching, in my opinion. Sometimes it is greatly needed.

[Parkbandit]

The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

[4a6c1]

Xyelin is volunteering. He will march right thru Iran. We should let him. Operation Shock and UGH

What is the opposite of Allah Akbar in Arabic? Yes well....They see him coming in his spandex cock sling and rainbow aura radiating outwards in a perfectly shaped heart.... they will all be running the other way yelling GOD IS BAD!!!

That solves that.

PC pwns at foreign policy.

[Back]

If we do bomb them, we should send all the neo-nazis over there first.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

Exactly.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
Xyelin is volunteering. He will march right thru Iran. We should let him. Operation Shock and UGH

What is the opposite of Allah Akbar in Arabic? Yes well....They see him coming in his spandex cock sling and rainbow aura radiating outwards in a perfectly shaped heart.... they will all be running the other way yelling GOD IS BAD!!!

That solves that.

PC pwns at foreign policy.

Yes and your penis with his flight helmet o' lime rind dooooom can be my sidekick.

[Warriorbird]

PC Conspiracy theories.


Xyelin is volunteering. He will march right thru Iran. We should let him. Operation Shock and UGH

Xyelin clearly = Master P.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0201052left.jpg




[Edited on 12-14-2005 by Warriorbird]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Xyelin
The U.S. could fuck them up with little consequence at any point. That jack ass needs to stop riling up dem natives.

The United States is fighting two wars on two fronts and can't afford to be fighting another one. The US has little to no credibility around the world. While I vehemently disagree with what he said, the United States hasn't had a fair middle east policy since Israel was formed and Bush has said some dumb ass things since he was elected.



Don't they know Chuck Norris is 1/8th Iranian?? Not because of his heritage.. its because he ate a fucking Iranian!

Enough about the pansy Chuck Norris

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

If Israel can develop and obtain nuclear weapons secretly why can't Iran. The last thing we need is Israel attacking Iran.


The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

.....and filling in for Pat Robertson at the 700 club this afternoon we have Parkbandit.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

If Israel can develop and obtain nuclear weapons secretly why can't Iran. The last thing we need is Israel attacking Iran.


The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

.....and filling in for Pat Robertson at the 700 club this afternoon we have Parkbandit.


XTC your are beyond fucking stupid.. when you grow up you are gonna take a few steps back and go.. mmm they were right after all. Until then STFU plz your stupidity gives me the urge to shit.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc
.....and filling in for Pat Robertson at the 700 club this afternoon we have Parkbandit.

XTC your are beyond fucking stupid.. when you grow up you are gonna take a few steps back and go.. mmm they were right after all. Until then STFU plz your stupidity gives me the urge to shit.

Pshaw, PB made a post in a joking manner and so that time did XTC.

:shrug:

[xtc]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

If Israel can develop and obtain nuclear weapons secretly why can't Iran. The last thing we need is Israel attacking Iran.


The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

.....and filling in for Pat Robertson at the 700 club this afternoon we have Parkbandit.


XTC your are beyond fucking stupid.. when you grow up you are gonna take a few steps back and go.. mmm they were right after all. Until then STFU plz your stupidity gives me the urge to shit.

I am grown up you dumb fuck. You are calling me stupid? You are one of the dumbest fucks on this board. I am amazed that anyone could have lived beyond 20 and learned so little. You know nothing about the Middle East, so why don't you sit down and shut up until a post about Monster Truck rallies comes up.

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by xtc
I am grown up you dumb fuck. You are calling me stupid? You are one of the dumbest fucks on this board. I am amazed that anyone could have lived beyond 20 and learned so little. You know nothing about the Middle East, so why don't you sit down and shut up until a post about Monster Truck rallies comes up.

That wasn't a very mature way to demonstrate your maturity, xtc. :)

Anyway... I saw on Matt Drudge's website yesterday the headline that simply said: Iran's Presidant says Holocaust a 'myth'. I thought to myself, "Wow. Does this guy really intend to piss off the United States and Israel to the point that they bomb the crap out of him? Two of the deadliest militay powers in the world? What is he thinking?"

Personally I think the guy is simply insane and doesn't really know what he is doing. I can't think of any other explanation. He has said in the past that any attack on Iran would "open Pandora's Box".

I don't know if I buy it. Israel doesn't have the capability to hit Iran with their current Air Force due to the distance their planes would have to travel to carry out the mission. I don't think Israel has any fuel tankers that could refuel their F-15s and F-16s in flight, but if the U.S. allowed them use of our own tankers?

That could get ugly.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Ebondale

Originally posted by xtc
I am grown up you dumb fuck. You are calling me stupid? You are one of the dumbest fucks on this board. I am amazed that anyone could have lived beyond 20 and learned so little. You know nothing about the Middle East, so why don't you sit down and shut up until a post about Monster Truck rallies comes up.

That wasn't a very mature way to demonstrate your maturity, xtc. :)



Some people don't understand civility.

[4a6c1]

I thought umm, Korea was next. Pushy pushy. America can turn the whole world into TONS of Vietnams. He just needs to wait his turn.

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
I thought umm, Korea was next. Pushy pushy. America can turn the whole world into TONS of Vietnams. He just needs to wait his turn.

That was until Kim Jong Il called up Bush and said, "Holy sheet! That guy is rearry crazy!"

[4a6c1]

Kim Jong Il geev Booosh sukky five dolla if he no invade?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

If Israel can develop and obtain nuclear weapons secretly why can't Iran. The last thing we need is Israel attacking Iran.


The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

.....and filling in for Pat Robertson at the 700 club this afternoon we have Parkbandit.


XTC your are beyond fucking stupid.. when you grow up you are gonna take a few steps back and go.. mmm they were right after all. Until then STFU plz your stupidity gives me the urge to shit.

I am grown up you dumb fuck. You are calling me stupid? You are one of the dumbest fucks on this board. I am amazed that anyone could have lived beyond 20 and learned so little. You know nothing about the Middle East, so why don't you sit down and shut up until a post about Monster Truck rallies comes up.

Lol thank you for adding validity to my assertion that you are a dumb ass.

As for me being one of the dumbest fucks on this board??? Even I know that is far from them truth and I'm one of the dumbest fuks on this board as you so elegantly put it.

My statement must have hit home with your dumb ass otherwise you wouldn't have become so fired up over it.

Why don't you take a few steps back from the internet and your flaming liberal websites for a while and gain some wisdom and knowledge on your own.

Noob.

P.s. Chuck Norris once ate 38 porter house steaks in an hour.. shortly after his dinner he had the biggest shit known to mankind. That pile of shit is now known as CANADA.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

If Israel can develop and obtain nuclear weapons secretly why can't Iran. The last thing we need is Israel attacking Iran.


The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

.....and filling in for Pat Robertson at the 700 club this afternoon we have Parkbandit.


XTC your are beyond fucking stupid.. when you grow up you are gonna take a few steps back and go.. mmm they were right after all. Until then STFU plz your stupidity gives me the urge to shit.

I am grown up you dumb fuck. You are calling me stupid? You are one of the dumbest fucks on this board. I am amazed that anyone could have lived beyond 20 and learned so little. You know nothing about the Middle East, so why don't you sit down and shut up until a post about Monster Truck rallies comes up.

Lol thank you for adding validity to my assertion that you are a dumb ass.

As for me being one of the dumbest fucks on this board??? Even I know that is far from them truth and I'm one of the dumbest fuks on this board as you so elegantly put it.

My statement must have hit home with your dumb ass otherwise you wouldn't have become so fired up over it.

Why don't you take a few steps back from the internet and your flaming liberal websites for a while and gain some wisdom and knowledge on your own.

Noob.

P.s. Chuck Norris once ate 38 porter house steaks in an hour.. shortly after his dinner he had the biggest shit known to mankind. That pile of shit is now known as CANADA.

When attacked I hit back. If you believe that adds validity to your assertion, then I will let you sit with your delusions. In your initial post you somehow integrated your desire to defecate in a thread about politics, very intelligent and enlightening.

Your understanding of foreign issues is so myopic and limited that you simply lump opinions of the subject into two camps liberal and conservative. I have yet to see you offer any intelligent observations or analysis of the Iranian situation.

Your comments about Chuck Norris and Canada are what I would expect from an immature, insecure 14 year old who shouts USA, USA, USA at a wrestling match where an American "fights" a foreigner.

My knowledge of Iran and its situation doesn't come from visiting "flaming liberal websites". It comes from years of interaction of Iranians from a child onward. I have come to know the Iranians as intelligent, great thinkers, artistic, wonderful debaters and passionate. First off most Iranians aren't Arabs they are Persians. They don't speak Arabic, they speak Farsi. I have known Iranians who were Muslims, Christians, Zoroastrians, and Bahais. The Middle East isn't simply a land with Israel on one side and all the other nations on the other side. There are many divisions and historical mistrust among all the other nations. Since the Shah of Iran was deposed, Iran has gone through some hard line regions run by the Ayatollahs. A democratic election, electing a President in Iran is something to be cheered. A lot of the power in Iran still lies with the Ayatollahs and any new President in Iran must make changes slowly and still appease the Ayatollahs or he find himself deposed. Iran ran a reform candidate must more to the centre than the man who got elected. Why didn’t he win? Certainly he was popular with the youth. The answer is that Iran along with many other nations have shifted right since the invasion of Iraq, there is fear of American invasion and a belief that only a strong military and a nuclear arsenal will deter American or any other invasion. Even youthful reformers in Iran believe Iran should have nuclear weapons; the question they ask is who should control them.

The other question that comes into play is equality. If America, England, France, China, Pakistan, India, Israel and perhaps North Korea can have nuclear weapons then why not Iran they ask. Certainly the question of Israel will upset them. America aided and abetted in Israel’s bid to get nuclear weapons. Many scientists who worked in America’s nuclear program ended up working for Israel’s. Israel developed their weapons in secret without International knowledge or approval. If it weren’t for Israeli whistle blower Mordechai Vannu the world may never have known Israel was a nuclear armed nation. Any attempt to have UN inspectors sent to Israel has always been vetoed by the United States, how do you think this looks to the rest of the world?

So you think I am young and naïve and liberal in my outlook and that I am unaware that some America is hated around the world and that a nuclear Iran could launch a first strike against America and we could all perish? Quite the contrary I am very aware of it. Can the UN or even the United States police the world and successfully stop every nation that wants nuclear arms? No despite our best efforts some will slip through the cracks. Certainly we should stop the likes of Al Qaida getting their hands on nuclear arms, dirty bombs or other. In order to do this we need friends not enemies in the Middle East and among the Muslim world.

This time around Iran has learned from Iraq’s mistakes. They aren’t developing their nuclear technology in one spot where an Israeli air strike could knock it out, they have spread the program out among numerous sites and celled the knowledge so A doesn’t know where B is and vice versa. This would make knocking out Iran’s nuclear technology development sites much harder. There is of course the question of what the other nations in the region would do if America or Israel launched strikes against Iran. Pakistan is a nuclear armed nation, is Pervaiz Musharaf’s hold on power strong enough that he can stave off the hardliners in his country or would another American military assault motivate hardliners to over throw Pervaiz? Pervaiz took power in a military coupe; it isn’t unreasonable to think another could do the same.

Does this mean I approve of the Iranian President’s comments? No of course not, they are despicable and deplorable. Does he think the US waged a campaign against him before the election to try and stop him from getting elected? Yes he does. US media (which many in the Middle East think are a puppet and mouth piece for the US Government) ran a story that he could have been one of the hostage takers of US captives. It was only after the election that the CIA issued a statement that they didn’t believe he was one of the hostage takers. The Iranian President believes the US Government was behind the story and ran it to thwart his chances of getting elected.

It isn’t that I am simple or immature in my outlook or that I get my information from the likes of moveon.org. I ask myself what happens if air strikes fail? If the Iranians have spread out their program as some people believe? What if they already have nuclear weapons? Could they fire one to retaliate? How will the rest of the region view the act? Could it cause the hardliners to take control of nuclear armed Pakistan and if so where would that leave us? The world is a chess game, checkers is for amateurs.

I look forward to intelligent, insightful analysis of the situation. Perhaps you can muster something greater than your ability to defecate and a Chuck Norris story this time.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by xtc]

[Gan]

I think that any action that will be taken against Iran would come from Israel.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit
The guy is certifiable and if he continues down the nuclear path.. the Israeli airforce will take it out like they have in the past.

If Israel can develop and obtain nuclear weapons secretly why can't Iran. The last thing we need is Israel attacking Iran.


The guy is a loon and I personally hope he's shot in the head.. non-fatally-ish.

.....and filling in for Pat Robertson at the 700 club this afternoon we have Parkbandit.


XTC your are beyond fucking stupid.. when you grow up you are gonna take a few steps back and go.. mmm they were right after all. Until then STFU plz your stupidity gives me the urge to shit.

I am grown up you dumb fuck. You are calling me stupid? You are one of the dumbest fucks on this board. I am amazed that anyone could have lived beyond 20 and learned so little. You know nothing about the Middle East, so why don't you sit down and shut up until a post about Monster Truck rallies comes up.

Lol thank you for adding validity to my assertion that you are a dumb ass.

As for me being one of the dumbest fucks on this board??? Even I know that is far from them truth and I'm one of the dumbest fuks on this board as you so elegantly put it.

My statement must have hit home with your dumb ass otherwise you wouldn't have become so fired up over it.

Why don't you take a few steps back from the internet and your flaming liberal websites for a while and gain some wisdom and knowledge on your own.

Noob.

P.s. Chuck Norris once ate 38 porter house steaks in an hour.. shortly after his dinner he had the biggest shit known to mankind. That pile of shit is now known as CANADA.

When attacked I hit back. If you believe that adds validity to your assertion, then I will let you sit with your delusions. In your initial post you somehow integrated your desire to defecate in a thread about politics, very intelligent and enlightening.

Your understanding of foreign issues is so myopic and limited that you simply lump opinions of the subject into two camps liberal and conservative. I have yet to see you offer any intelligent observations or analysis of the Iranian situation.

Your comments about Chuck Norris and Canada are what I would expect from an immature, insecure 14 year old who shouts USA, USA, USA at a wrestling match where an American "fights" a foreigner.

My knowledge of Iran and its situation doesn't come from visiting "flaming liberal websites". It comes from years of interaction of Iranians from a child onward. I have come to know the Iranians as intelligent, great thinkers, artistic, wonderful debaters and passionate. First off most Iranians aren't Arabs they are Persians. They don't speak Arabic, they speak Farsi. I have known Iranians who were Muslims, Christians, Zoroastrians, and Bahais. The Middle East isn't simply a land with Israel on one side and all the other nations on the other side. There are many divisions and historical mistrust among all the other nations. Since the Shah of Iran was deposed, Iran has gone through some hard line regions run by the Ayatollahs. A democratic election, electing a President in Iran is something to be cheered. A lot of the power in Iran still lies with the Ayatollahs and any new President in Iran must make changes slowly and still appease the Ayatollahs or he find himself deposed. Iran ran a reform candidate must more to the centre than the man who got elected. Why didn’t he win? Certainly he was popular with the youth. The answer is that Iran along with many other nations have shifted right since the invasion of Iraq, there is fear of American invasion and a belief that only a strong military and a nuclear arsenal will deter American or any other invasion. Even youthful reformers in Iran believe Iran should have nuclear weapons; the question they ask is who should control them.

The other question that comes into play is equality. If America, England, France, China, Pakistan, India, Israel and perhaps North Korea can have nuclear weapons then why not Iran they ask. Certainly the question of Israel will upset them. America aided and abetted in Israel’s bid to get nuclear weapons. Many scientists who worked in America’s nuclear program ended up working for Israel’s. Israel developed their weapons in secret without International knowledge or approval. If it weren’t for Israeli whistle blower Mordechai Vannu the world may never have known Israel was a nuclear armed nation. Any attempt to have UN inspectors sent to Israel has always been vetoed by the United States, how do you think this looks to the rest of the world?

So you think I am young and naïve and liberal in my outlook and that I am unaware that some America is hated around the world and that a nuclear Iran could launch a first strike against America and we could all perish? Quite the contrary I am very aware of it. Can the UN or even the United States police the world and successfully stop every nation that wants nuclear arms? No despite our best efforts some will slip through the cracks. Certainly we should stop the likes of Al Qaida getting their hands on nuclear arms, dirty bombs or other. In order to do this we need friends not enemies in the Middle East and among the Muslim world.

This time around Iran has learned from Iraq’s mistakes. They aren’t developing their nuclear technology in one spot where an Israeli air strike could knock it out, they have spread the program out among numerous sites and celled the knowledge so A doesn’t know where B is and vice versa. This would make knocking out Iran’s nuclear technology development sites much harder. There is of course the question of what the other nations in the region would do if America or Israel launched strikes against Iran. Pakistan is a nuclear armed nation, is Pervaiz Musharaf’s hold on power strong enough that he can starve off the hardliners in his country or would another American military assault motivate hardliners to over throw Pervaiz? Pervaiz took power in a military coupe; it isn’t unreasonable to think another could do the same.

Does this mean I approve of the Iranian President’s comments? No of course not, they are despicable and deplorable. Does he think the US waged a campaign against him before the election to try and stop him from getting elected? Yes he does. US media (which many in the Middle East think are a puppet and mouth piece for the US Government) ran a story that he could have been one of the hostage takers of US captives. It was only after the election that the CIA issued a statement that they didn’t believe he was one of the hostage takers. The Iranian President believes the US Government was behind the story and ran it to thwart his chances of getting elected.

It isn’t that I am simple or immature in my outlook or that I get my information from the likes of moveon.org. I ask myself what happens if air strikes fail? If the Iranians have spread out their program as some people believe? What if they already have nuclear weapons? Could they fire one to retaliate? How will the rest of the region view the act? Could it cause the hardliners to take control of nuclear armed Pakistan and if so where would that leave us? The world is a chess game, checkers is for amateurs.

I look forward to intelligent, insightful analysis of the situation. Perhaps you can muster something greater than your ability to defecate and a Chuck Norris story this time.


Sorry I didn't feel like reading your rant because it is probally so liberal I might end up wearing a pink scarf by the time I was done.

However I may take the time to read it later after wrestling is over. Brb I gotta go take a Chuck Norris size shit.

[Hulkein]

xtc, how did the warm Iranian load feel on your forehead?

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Hulkein]

[Ebondale]

Damn. Burn. :lol:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc
Bush has said some dumb ass things since he was elected.


There's a huge difference between Bush's fuck ups and this guys absolute hatred towards Jews and Israel. You can't even compare the two.

[Edited on 12-16-05 by Parkbandit]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Hulkein
xtc, how did the warm Iranian load feel on your forehead?

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Hulkein]

Wow, did you think of that all by yourself?

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by xtc
Bush has said some dumb ass things since he was elected.


There's a huge difference between Bush's fuck ups and this guys absolute hatred towards Jews and Israel. You can't even compare the two.

[Edited on 12-16-05 by Parkbandit]

Granted I said his comments about the holocaust were despicable and deplorable. I think however we perceive Bush's comments differently, when Bush refered to Pakistan and called them Pakis to me that it shows his underlying racism, to you it was probably just a slip of the tongue and not indicative of racism. Prejudice to any people Jewish, Pakistani or even white Floridians is unacceptable.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by xtc]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by xtc
Bush has said some dumb ass things since he was elected.


There's a huge difference between Bush's fuck ups and this guys absolute hatred towards Jews and Israel. You can't even compare the two.

[Edited on 12-16-05 by Parkbandit]

Granted I said his comments about the holocaust were despicable and deplorable. I think however we perceive Bush's comments differently, when Bush refered to Pakistan and called them Pakis to me that it shows his underlying racism, to you it was probably just a slip of the tongue and not indicative of racism. Prejudice to any people Jewish, Pakistani or even white Floridians is unacceptable.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by xtc]

Let's just say I will continue to look at your posts and chuckle at your ignorance if you really think you can compare the two. Calling someone from Pakistan a Paki.. and saying that Israel should be wiped off the map are two completely different things.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by xtc
Bush has said some dumb ass things since he was elected.


There's a huge difference between Bush's fuck ups and this guys absolute hatred towards Jews and Israel. You can't even compare the two.

[Edited on 12-16-05 by Parkbandit]

Granted I said his comments about the holocaust were despicable and deplorable. I think however we perceive Bush's comments differently, when Bush refered to Pakistan and called them Pakis to me that it shows his underlying racism, to you it was probably just a slip of the tongue and not indicative of racism. Prejudice to any people Jewish, Pakistani or even white Floridians is unacceptable.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by xtc]

Let's just say I will continue to look at your posts and chuckle at your ignorance if you really think you can compare the two. Calling someone from Pakistan a Paki.. and saying that Israel should be wiped off the map are two completely different things.

I acknowledged that his comments were deplorable and despicable. Certainly they are two different things, Bush didn't call for Pakistan to be wiped off the map or to be moved to Europe. What they have in common is racism, certainly on two different levels.

[kranfer]

Personally, as someone who is Jewish, I feel that Israel should do the following:

1. Launch cruise misses and destroy everything in Iran that has anything to do with "Nuclear Power" I do not believe they are attempting to create nuclear energy but thats just me.

2. Launch the new bunker busters they got from Watervliet, NY (across the Hudson River from me). Those things will be able to kill the Iranian President quite easily no matter where he hides.

3. If the lack of International threatening/bullying/hostilities/insulting does not stop, simple turn Iran into a nice land of infrastructure, but vaporize its citizens. (Use Neutron Bombs.)

Just my thoughts.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Hulkein
xtc, how did the warm Iranian load feel on your forehead?

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Hulkein]

Wow, did you think of that all by yourself?

No, my cousin was walking by and was like 'U NO WHATRD BE FUNNAY? SAY HE SUX DIK' so I did it, hahahahah ahahahahahaha. PWND

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc
I acknowledged that his comments were deplorable and despicable. Certainly they are two different things, Bush didn't call for Pakistan to be wiped off the map or to be moved to Europe. What they have in common is racism, certainly on two different levels.

Then by your standards.. I should be sent to jail today because I murdered an ant that was not inside my property line.

And you are assuming that Bush meant Pakis in a derrogatory manner. Given his ability (or disability) to fuck up the English language.. that's a pretty big assumption.

You assume far too much.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Hulkein
No, my cousin was walking by and was like 'U NO WHATRD BE FUNNAY? SAY HE SUX DIK' so I did it, hahahahah ahahahahahaha. PWND

I don't know if it's because it's a seriously slow day at work, the boards are kinda boring today or a combination of both that this made me laugh... hard. Thanks. :P

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
And you are assuming that Bush meant Pakis in a derrogatory manner. Given his ability (or disability) to fuck up the English language.. that's a pretty big assumption.


So we have a president of the US that other countries have to guess what the heck he is saying because he cannot even speak the language.

Scary.

Thank god he can't not be elected again.

[Fission]

So, today Iran cracked the seals on its shuttered nuclear plants with inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency present.

Melissa Fleming, a spokeswoman for the U.N., said the the nations of the U.N. would be informed later in the day as to what Iran planned to do with the reactors, and declined to say whether enriched uranium would be manufactured, or if the reactors were only being brought on-line for testing.

This could get interesting, unless they're simply intending to conduct power generation research as claimed.

:saint:

[Drew]

Originally posted by kranfer

1. Launch cruise misses and destroy everything in Iran that has anything to do with "Nuclear Power" I do not believe they are attempting to create nuclear energy but thats just me.


This is gonna happen.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by kranfer

1. Launch cruise misses and destroy everything in Iran that has anything to do with "Nuclear Power" I do not believe they are attempting to create nuclear energy but thats just me.


This is gonna happen.

Israel will likely force the U.S.'s hand into doing the missile strikes against select nuclear power plants.

The premise is that it's better for the U.S. to do it, geopolitically speaking, than it is for Israel.

If Israel does it, they'll fly across Turkey airspace. Israel has clearance from Turkey to use target sites in SE Turkey. So Israel can send their planes there and then suddenly go into Iran to attack and then fly back through Turkey. Turkey will publicly protest the "violation" but will be appeased by Israel promises of military technology/assistance.

The U.S. can use the Persian Gulf and Iraq as a base.

[xtc]

Originally posted by kranfer
Personally, as someone who is Jewish, I feel that Israel should do the following:

1. Launch cruise misses and destroy everything in Iran that has anything to do with "Nuclear Power" I do not believe they are attempting to create nuclear energy but thats just me.

2. Launch the new bunker busters they got from Watervliet, NY (across the Hudson River from me). Those things will be able to kill the Iranian President quite easily no matter where he hides.

3. If the lack of International threatening/bullying/hostilities/insulting does not stop, simple turn Iran into a nice land of infrastructure, but vaporize its citizens. (Use Neutron Bombs.)

Just my thoughts.

Funny thoughts...... I am not Iranian but I have the same thoughts about Israel. (actually I don't, I just have a low tolerance for dumb asses)

[Edited on 1-10-2006 by xtc]

[Fission]

So today, Iran test-fired the Fajr-3 (Victory) missile.

Undetectable by radar, this MIRV-capable ballistic missile is capable of simultaneously dropping warheads on a number of targets. It was also proudly stated those targets could include Israel and U.S. bases in the Middle East.

I suppose we'll see if they'll also be retrofitted to share peaceful electrical generation with their neighbors.

[Hulkein]

If they want to get whiped off the face of the Earth, I suggest they fire it at Israel or US bases.

[Ebondale]

So today, Iran test-fired the Fajr-3 (Victory) missile.

Undetectable by radar, this MIRV-capable ballistic missile is capable of simultaneously dropping warheads on a number of targets. It was also proudly stated those targets could include Israel and U.S. bases in the Middle East.

I suppose we'll see if they'll also be retrofitted to share peaceful electrical generation with their neighbors.

Is there a link to a news story about this test fire? I'd like to read about it.

[Fission]

There should be a few links out there, but this one should do for a start:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/31/iran.missile.ap/index.html

[xtc]

There should be a few links out there, but this one should do for a start:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/31/iran.missile.ap/index.html

With this missle I wonder what Iran will do if any nation tries to take out their nuclear energy program.

[Sean of the Thread]

With this missle I wonder what Iran will do if any nation tries to take out their nuclear energy program.

You mean like Israel did back in the 80's?

[Fission]

I could see some people taking a hard look at forcibly dismantling their nuclear program at this rate. Iran has acquired plans for nuclear warheads, done ballistics research, is developing nuclear material, and now has an optimized delivery system already available. However, even if working at full throttle, they won't have nuclear weapons yet unless acquired whole or in part from elsewhere.

Also new to the Iranian arsenal is a ship-launched underwater missile capable of speeds of 223 mph, possibly based on the old Soviet VA-111 Shkval. This missile also has radar-avoidance capabilities, though whether it can deploy a nuclear payload is unknown. In any event, it's designed to take out submarines or large warships, like those in the 5th Fleet, say.

[Daniel]

With this missle I wonder what Iran will do if any nation tries to take out their nuclear energy program.

It could instigate its own destruction for one.

[Kranar]

With this missle I wonder what Iran will do if any nation tries to take out their nuclear energy program.


Iran's nuclear energy program was very much in the open during the 80s when Israel completely destroyed it.

Iran's recent program, however, is now mostly underground and also not concentrated in one area as it previously was.

Israel would be unable to destroy it without actually engaging in a war with Iran.

I highly doubt that's an option for Israel.

[Kranar]

As much as we talk about how nation X or nation Y getting the bomb would lead to world armageddon, historically the opposite has actually been the case.

First it was if the Soviets get the bomb it would be the end of the world. A bomb in the hands of a ruthless regime responsibile for the death of 40 million of its own people, complete apocalypse... instead it actually improved relations between the USSR and the US as they both were forced to take one another seriously.

I also remember the panic when India and Pakistan both got the bomb... I mean talk about two nations who have a deeply rooted hatred for one another. On the contrary, since those two nations got the bomb, relations between them have improved to the best they've ever been.

Same goes for North Korea, although admittedly the benefits North Korea has seen since acquiring the bomb don't compare to the other nations mentioned, mostly because North Korea's nuclear status is also pretty shady.

Anyhow... I personally think nuclear weapons just illustrates the worst of humanity, and find it rather ironic that the only nations that feel have the right to a weapon that does nothing but incinerate 100s of thousands of people with heat 10 times hotter than the Sun are the nations that call themselves civilized.

[Sean of the Thread]

Iran's nuclear energy program was very much in the open during the 80s when Israel completely destroyed it.

Iran's recent program, however, is now mostly underground and also not concentrated in one area as it previously was.

Israel would be unable to destroy it without actually engaging in a war with Iran.

I highly doubt that's an option for Israel.


The other option would be allowing a threat that screams Death to Israel.. it's people and ideology to materialize? I highly doubt that's an option for Israel.

Alone or with allies or any other number of possibilities the Iranian threat will be handled.

[Sean of the Thread]

As much as we talk about how nation X or nation Y getting the bomb would lead to world armageddon, historically the opposite has actually been the case.

First it was if the Soviets get the bomb it would be the end of the world. A bomb in the hands of a ruthless regime responsibile for the death of 40 million of its own people, complete apocalypse... instead it actually improved relations between the USSR and the US as they both were forced to take one another seriously.

I also remember the panic when India and Pakistan both got the bomb... I mean talk about two nations who have a deeply rooted hatred for one another. On the contrary, since those two nations got the bomb, relations between them have improved to the best they've ever been.

Same goes for North Korea, although admittedly the benefits North Korea has seen since acquiring the bomb don't compare to the other nations mentioned, mostly because North Korea's nuclear status is also pretty shady.

Anyhow... I personally think nuclear weapons just illustrates the worst of humanity, and find it rather ironic that the only nations that feel have the right to a weapon that does nothing but incinerate 100s of thousands of people with heat 10 times hotter than the Sun are the nations that call themselves civilized.

Again you're comparing apples to oranges. The Soviets did not have the official stance OF DEATH TO THE CAPITALISTS! The cold war also had nothing to do with the root of all destruction.. religion. The Soviets were also rational. The regime in Iran is clearly not rational and extremly volatile.

[Kranar]

The Soviets did not have the official stance OF DEATH TO THE CAPITALISTS!


The official stance of the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republic was the complete annihillation of capitalism.



The Soviets were also rational. The regime in Iran is clearly not rational and extremly volatile.


The Soviets were rational? The Soviet Union along with China are responsible for more deaths of their own people as a result of their own political ideology than all of Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and any other modern day "whacko" nation put together times 100.

The Soviet Union during the Cold War was considered far from rational. The Soviet Union was an incredibly brutal and oppressive regime, the difference was that they had a crapload of nuclear weapons and presented a REAL threat to the security of the U.S. Iraq and Iran pale in comparison to the potential threat the USSR posed, and it's only because of that, that we can look at those countries as barbaric, animals, uncivilized, and hold other degrading attitudes towards them. Granted their governments are barbaric and are entirely unworthy of anything but disgust... it doesn't change the fact that if those countries did pose a real substantial threat the U.S., we would not be holding the same attitudes we hold today.

That's what makes many modern world issues so skewed.

[Sean of the Thread]

Agreed modern world issues are skewed beyond fukin reason.

Disagreed that Iran isn't an IMMEDIATE threat to Israel.

Let me make my stament a little more clear: Soviets WERE rational when it came to deploying nuclear weapons. Their REAL potential threat was negated by mutally assured destruction.. which would mean THEY WERE RATIONAL. Iran doesn't care.

Stalin was brutal and oppressive. With each new leader this diminished more and more.

I think it was Marx who spoke of annihilation of capitalism by being better communist. At any rate "annihilation of capitalism" does not equal "launch WMD at Israel because he we hate and want to destroy them to the point of our own destruction"

[Stanley Burrell]

My personal take on things is that I think it would be nice if Israel blew up those French-made POS reactors.

Again.

If the Iranian regime remains defiantly gun-ho (and obviously stupid) enough that it continues to boast the unveiling of its nuclear facilities, that in itself could lead the way, I feel, to enough intelligence gathering that will very possibly (and hopefully, if things unfold continuously as they have unfortunately been doing) lead to the prompt dispatch of them (the reactors) eons before any kind of high tech missile system could actually be equipped with a warhead significant of doing just about anything.

The fact that almost every Arabic country in the world harps upon Israel and a less than half a percent of the world's Jewish population as any and all primary sources of their pain and strife is reason enough to consider this kind of stupidity as being very dangerous and parallel to much of what exists in the Bush administration.

...These days, I am inclined to believe that almost anyone who recycles anti-Zionist slogans is inherently anti-Semitic.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I think it's funny how certain posters will support the most despicable people on the planet simply because they are anti-American or anti-Bush. You basically say "Oh sure, he's an evil despot that is probably crazy, but you have to admit he raises some valid issues regarding America and George Bush". I don't even know how you guys even manage to reconcile your viewpoint with the obvious facts, but I have a hunch you are just delusional and blinded by your political bias.

Israel doesn't fuck around with these crazies (they can't afford to), and will beat Iran like a red headed step child (again) if they don't watch their step.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_course.php

[xtc]

I think it's funny how certain posters will support the most despicable people on the planet simply because they are anti-American or anti-Bush. You basically say "Oh sure, he's an evil despot that is probably crazy, but you have to admit he raises some valid issues regarding America and George Bush". I don't even know how you guys even manage to reconcile your viewpoint with the obvious facts, but I have a hunch you are just delusional and blinded by your political bias.

Israel doesn't fuck around with these crazies (they can't afford to), and will beat Iran like a red headed step child (again) if they don't watch their step.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_course.php

Israel who itself developed a nuclear bomb surreptiously with the help of America. Israel who never worked with the IAEA and who has never been subject to UN inspectors on their soil and Israel who has violated more UN Resolutions than any other county on the face of the planet.

Let's not forget that America was fine with Iran having nuclear technology in the 70's when the Shah of Iran was in America's pocket.

What did Amnesty International have to say about Iran in the 70's under the Shah? That they had the highest rate of death penalties in the world, no valid system of civilian courts and a history of torture which is beyond belief. No country in the world had a worse record in human rights than Iran.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Iran_KH.html

I guess we are fine with a monster having nuclear technology as long as they are our monster.

[longshot]

Israel is a democracy.

It is not does not have a bullshit government based on theocratic fascism, or as you know it, "Islam".

xtc, forever the apologist of terrorism.

[Back]

Israel is a democracy.

It is not does not have a bullshit government based on theocratic fascism, or as you know it, "Islam".

xtc, forever the apologist of terrorism.

So what is it's government based on?

[Stanley Burrell]

As much as we talk about how nation X or nation Y getting the bomb would lead to world armageddon, historically the opposite has actually been the case.

First it was if the Soviets get the bomb it would be the end of the world. A bomb in the hands of a ruthless regime responsibile for the death of 40 million of its own people, complete apocalypse... instead it actually improved relations between the USSR and the US as they both were forced to take one another seriously.

I also remember the panic when India and Pakistan both got the bomb... I mean talk about two nations who have a deeply rooted hatred for one another. On the contrary, since those two nations got the bomb, relations between them have improved to the best they've ever been.

Same goes for North Korea, although admittedly the benefits North Korea has seen since acquiring the bomb don't compare to the other nations mentioned, mostly because North Korea's nuclear status is also pretty shady.

In response to this, as well as other points you had laid out, I personally feel that the "then and now" factor of a country and how far along, if at all, said country is with its nuclear weapon(s) development plays a tremendous role in whether or not any given establishment can or should be judged as doing something good or bad, in a true teleological sense, by creating WMDs.

Trying to criticize, say, Iceland, because of its vicious hoards of grizzled Nordic barbarians in the past probably would not play a major role if such a country decided to begin manufacturing an arsenal of sorts.

Nazi Germany was attempting to enrich uranium for obvious reasons several score ago - if one were to criticize modern day Germany for weapons research based solely on what had happened in the past, based on geological exclusivity, then I don't really see that as making much sense.


Israel who itself developed a nuclear bomb surreptiously with the help of America. Israel who never worked with the IAEA and who has never been subject to UN inspectors on their soil and Israel who has violated more UN Resolutions than any other county on the face of the planet.

I am inclined to believe that if the UN did anything short of pacing itself in its already ponderous activities of curbing weapons development in X amount of Arab controlled territories, and said Arab territories were left to their own devices, they would rather starve their own flesh and blood (see: Palestine, etc.) in order to fundamentally terminate, via unmonitored weapons development, any symbol of the West, East, or an iota of difference in relation to these region's cultures wherever it would be found. As it is, I can only wonder about the fewer amount of times I that I would have heard about another individual self-exploding, or car bomb detonating, or the pangs of an impoverished outcry that would have been prevented had the United Nations itself been theoretically placed under its own form of surveillance to ensure that billions of Palestinian moneys had gone to their original and allegedly intended cause.

Anyway,

I will be using my birthright to Israel dollars (which have been stagnant since my Bar-mitzvah) as soon as I possess enough vacation time to follow up the aforementioned action. I will be staying in a kibbutzim (commune) with relatives and intend to travel to the cities of Tel Aviv and new Jerusalem, rock-climb in Masada, float in the waters of the dead sea, enter the cave of Machpelach… And hopefully embark upon a couple of other adventures, not having to deal with Palestinian terrorism and idiocy during my future stay. I will not share the pleasure of an older generation’s ability to witness the Golan Heights for what is was worth, or journey to other pieces of northern land, which were once irrigated and safe to visit, free of Hezbollah rocket fire.

If, by some chance, I am given the unfortunate ability to perfect my uzzi-firing skills alongside boys and girls, drafted at age seventeen so that they can have a home and family to return to during intervals of life-time service, then I will embrace such a fate.

Stanley Burrell.

[Stanley Burrell]

So what is it's government based on?

An oligarchy based not on terror.

And to better appease your rhetorical Q, an oligarchy based on a far lesser component of instilling an intense, overpowering fear as that of the United States as well as being an oligarchy based on an infinitely fractional component of instilling an intense, overpowering fear than its neighboring Arab populous.

Stanley Burrell.

[xtc]

Israel is a democracy.

It is not does not have a bullshit government based on theocratic fascism, or as you know it, "Islam".

xtc, forever the apologist of terrorism.

I see you have crawled out from under your rock.

Iran has had elections, does that process legitimize their quest for weapons know in your opinion?

What was the Jewish population of Israel in 1948? Through expulsion of Muslims and mass immigration of Jews, Israel has a population it is now comfortable allowing them the right to vote. 95% of Israeli lands can only been developed by Jews. The Israeli-Palestinian minority are restricted to 3% of the land. Israeli newspapers are subject to draconian military censorship. Israel is a democracy the way South Africa under apatheid was a democracy or Germany under Hitler was a democracy.

Your definition is Islam is so far off base, it isn't worth arguing about, with someone as ignorant as yourself. I bet the aspects of Islam you find the most objectionable are those that Islam inherited from Judaism.

Lastly I apologise for nothing.

[xtc]

I am inclined to believe that if the UN did anything short of pacing itself in its already ponderous activities of curbing weapons development in X amount of Arab controlled territories, and said Arab territories were left to their own devices, they would rather starve their own flesh and blood (see: Palestine, etc.) in order to fundamentally terminate, via unmonitored weapons development, any symbol of the West, East, or an iota of difference in relation to these region's cultures wherever it would be found. As it is, I can only wonder about the fewer amount of times I that I would have heard about another individual self-exploding, or car bomb detonating, or the pangs of an impoverished outcry that would have been prevented had the United Nations itself been theoretically placed under its own form of surveillance to ensure that billions of Palestinian moneys had gone to their original and allegedly intended cause.

That is your opinion, as wrong as I believe it is.

I believe the starvation of Palestinians has more to do with their occupier's theft of their land, diverting their water sources, firing on their homes and decades of International ambivalence.



I will be using my birthright to Israel dollars (which have been stagnant since my Bar-mitzvah) as soon as I possess enough vacation time to follow up the aforementioned action. I will be staying in a kibbutzim (commune) with relatives and intend to travel to the cities of Tel Aviv and new Jerusalem, rock-climb in Masada, float in the waters of the dead sea, enter the cave of Machpelach…

I hope you enjoy your trip. I have never been to where Abraham is supposedly buried.


And hopefully embark upon a couple of other adventures, not having to deal with Palestinian terrorism and idiocy during my future stay. I will not share the pleasure of an older generation’s ability to witness the Golan Heights for what is was worth, or journey to other pieces of northern land, which were once irrigated and safe to visit, free of Hezbollah rocket fire.

A generation of Palestinian children have grown up not knowing peace, only oppression and occupation. I am sure your inconvenience pales in comparison to their's.


If, by some chance, I am given the unfortunate ability to perfect my uzzi-firing skills alongside boys and girls, drafted at age seventeen so that they can have a home and family to return to during intervals of life-time service, then I will embrace such a fate.

Stanley Burrell.

Sounds like you want to kill some Palestinians, is that what you are saying Stanley?

[Parkbandit]

xtc, forever the apologist of terrorism.

qft

[Stanley Burrell]

Sounds like you want to kill some Palestinians, is that what you are saying Stanley?

I think I said I'd be going on vacation.

EDIT - The only reason I am now using the editing feature and giving you more benefit of the doubt than several other posters would be by adding this footnote... Is so that I can hopefully clarify things with said footnote in response to the above quote that it is my personal feeling, sadly (the non-jackassery form of sadness; the real deal variety having to do with being the opposite of all things happy) is that you, xtc, may actually hold such a belief to heart.

[longshot]

Dirka Dirka!



Your posts illustrate the real problem in the Middle East:

It is far easier to use Israel, Judiasm, America, the West, and capitalism as a scapegoat than to address the serious issues needing real and urgent reform in the Arab world.

[Warriorbird]

Which George Bush is so clearly qualified to provide?

[xtc]

I think I said I'd be going on vacation.

EDIT - The only reason I am now using the editing feature and giving you more benefit of the doubt than several other posters would be by adding this footnote... Is so that I can hopefully clarify things with said footnote in response to the above quote that it is my personal feeling, sadly (the non-jackassery form of sadness; the real deal variety having to do with being the opposite of all things happy) is that you, xtc, may actually hold such a belief to heart.

Stanley despite some of your more outrageous behaviour in the past, I like you. I put your behaviour down to past difficulties. The past part of your post surprised me. When you are clean/sober I find your posts intelligent and refreshing. I hope you don't want to kill Palestinians but your post certainly sounded that way to me.

"If, by some chance, I am given the unfortunate ability to perfect my uzzi-firing skills alongside boys and girls, drafted at age seventeen so that they can have a home and family to return to during intervals of life-time service, then I will embrace such a fate.

Stanley Burrell. "


Perhaps your posts was reactive and you incorrectly viewed my posts about Israel as anti-semetic. For me there is Israel and then there is Judaism.

[xtc]

Your posts illustrate the real problem in the Middle East:

It is far easier to use Israel, Judiasm, America, the West, and capitalism as a scapegoat than to address the serious issues needing real and urgent reform in the Arab world.


My post illustrates the outrageous double standard of American foreign policy.

btw Dirka Dirka is highly offensive.

[Warriorbird]

Lots of people like to rationalize away highly offensive here. The handy anonymity of the Internet.

[Sean of the Thread]

"If, by some chance, I am given the unfortunate ability to perfect my uzzi-firing skills alongside boys and girls, drafted at age seventeen so that they can have a home and family to return to during intervals of life-time service, then I will embrace such a fate.

Stanley Burrell. "

>>I hope you don't want to kill Palestinians but your post certainly sounded that way to me.<<

That is the life of an Israeli because of the irrational palestinians and other arab fruits. With hamas it's only going to get worse. He wasn't saying he WANTED to go and kill them.. he said he would if he was Israeli.

>>For me there is Israel and then there is Judaism.<<
Could you break down your seperation of the two as you've peaked my curiosity.

[xtc]

"If, by some chance, I am given the unfortunate ability to perfect my uzzi-firing skills alongside boys and girls, drafted at age seventeen so that they can have a home and family to return to during intervals of life-time service, then I will embrace such a fate.

Stanley Burrell. "

>>I hope you don't want to kill Palestinians but your post certainly sounded that way to me.<<


That is the life of an Israeli because of the irrational palestinians and other arab fruits. With hamas it's only going to get worse. He wasn't saying he WANTED to go and kill them.. he said he would if he was Israeli.

It is irrational to want a homeland especially one that was taken from you? If you claim to respect democracy then you have to respect the choice of the Palestinian people. Ironically Hamas had moved towards moderation in weeks while it took the Fatah party decades to move to the same point.

Re-read Stanley's post he never said he had to be an Israeli to pick up an uzi. I interpretted "unfortunate ability" in his posts as sarcasm and really he had a desire to kill them. I hope I am wrong.

>>For me there is Israel and then there is Judaism.<<


Could you break down your seperation of the two as you've peaked my curiosity.

Certainly, Judaism is a religion, Israel is a nation. Not all Jews support the nation of Israel. Some Orthodox Jews don't recognize Israel. Here is their site "Jews against Zionism"

http://www.nkusa.org/

[StrayRogue]

Excellent post XTC.

[Sean of the Thread]

The break down "your" seperation question was sarcasm.

Definition of IDF.. Israeli Defense Force
It was formed following the founding of Israel in 1948 to "defend the existence, territorial integrity and sovereignty of the state of Israel" and "to protect the inhabitants of Israel and to combat all forms of terrorism which threaten the daily life."

National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men, and Jewish women, over the age of 18.

They are trained and armed with an Uzi. Uzi is an Israeli SMG.

[xtc]

The break down "your" seperation question was sarcasm.

I figured but I wanted to educate you regardless


Definition of IDF.. Israeli Defense Force
It was formed following the founding of Israel in 1948 to "defend the existence, territorial integrity and sovereignty of the state of Israel" and "to protect the inhabitants of Israel and to combat all forms of terrorism which threaten the daily life."

National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men, and Jewish women, over the age of 18.

They are trained and armed with an Uzi. Uzi is an Israeli SMG.

I am aware that national service as the Brits call is compulsory in Israel. I am also aware of that the Uzi is an Israeli weapon. However Stanley was talking about a trip to Israeli not moving there.


"I will be using my birthright to Israel dollars (which have been stagnant since my Bar-mitzvah) as soon as I possess enough vacation time to follow up the aforementioned action. I will be staying in a kibbutzim (commune) with relatives and intend to travel to the cities of Tel Aviv and new Jerusalem, rock-climb in Masada, float in the waters of the dead sea, enter the cave of Machpelach…"

"..If, by some chance, I am given the unfortunate ability to perfect my uzzi-firing skills alongside boys and girls, drafted at age seventeen so that they can have a home and family to return to during intervals of life-time service, then I will embrace such a fate."

Regardless his post sounded to me like he wanted to kill Palestinians be it as a tourist or in military service.

[Stanley Burrell]

Actually, just clearing things up, that was meant as an example which would take into account the notion that, for example, just as many non-Israelites were trained and deployed during the necessary crash coursing of the Six Day War's duration (i.e.), then if by some stretch of imagination I was forced into a similar situation while friggin' vacationing, then I would sensibly put my efforts into defending and supporting any numerous given enemies of Israel's population if there were to be invading forces or an unfathomable outbreak in terrorism (not to discredit the shitheadedness of any terrorist activities ever...)

Not too many people want to inherently kill... people. And certain people who do should probably avoid enlistment at all costs.

Stanley Burrell.

[longshot]

My post illustrates the outrageous double standard of American foreign policy.

btw Dirka Dirka is highly offensive.

Sorry about the Dirka Dirka thing then. I wasn't aware.

While I disagree very strongly with your viewpoint, you're responses are not slanderous, and you take the time to craft coherent replies. It's appreciated.

As far as Hamas "moderating" their stance... I think that's a load crap.

They will not renounce violence, nor will they recognize Israel's right to exist. It's also rather coincidental that their decrease in public hate speach has waned as governments have decided not to fund their bullshit government.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally Posted by xtc

btw Dirka Dirka is highly offensive.


DIRKA DIRKA muther fucker. I'm more offended by Ted Kennedy's fat face than I am a cartoon. Everytime I see him I wonder where he hides his onion rings while on camera.

[xtc]

Sorry about the Dirka Dirka thing then. I wasn't aware.

While I disagree very strongly with your viewpoint, you're responses are not slanderous, and you take the time to craft coherent replies. It's appreciated.

As far as Hamas "moderating" their stance... I think that's a load crap.

They will not renounce violence, nor will they recognize Israel's right to exist. It's also rather coincidental that their decrease in public hate speach has waned as governments have decided not to fund their bullshit government.

People said the same thing about the Fatah party 30 years ago. When I said moderating their stance, look at how Hamas has changed since becoming elected. It took the Fatah party 30 years before they recognised Israel.

Hamas has been working with Mahmood Abbas and the Fatah party. Fatah was never one for coalition governments when they were in power. I think in time Hamas will soften its stance on Israel and recognise it. Fatah continued to have a paramilitary arm so they didn't outright abandon violence either.

30 years ago Fatah's rhetoric about Israel was the same as Hamas or worse. Hamas has been Fatah's opposition for years, it is easy to make comments when you are the opposition, much harder when you are the ruling party. You have to live up to your comments. I think even Hamas was surprised by the win, if the pundits are to be believed the Palestinian people voted for Hamas not for their extreme stance but because they were tired of Fatah's corruption.

I know the United States and Canada has cut funding to the Palestinian Government. I understand the rational but I worry about the decision. If the west cuts their funding to Hamas where will they turn for their funding? I imagine you hope Hamas is choked to death. I doubt it will happen historically adversity has only made the Palestinian people stronger.

[xtc]

Originally Posted by xtc

btw Dirka Dirka is highly offensive.


DIRKA DIRKA muther fucker. I'm more offended by Ted Kennedy's fat face than I am a cartoon. Everytime I see him I wonder where he hides his onion rings while on camera.

It is mimicry of Arabic and most Arabs find it offensive. It would be similiar to making fun of the way Chinese people speak and saying Ching, Chang, Cho.

We agree on few things but Ted Kennedy is one of them.

[xtc]

Actually, just clearing things up, that was meant as an example which would take into account the notion that, for example, just as many non-Israelites were trained and deployed during the necessary crash coursing of the Six Day War's duration (i.e.), then if by some stretch of imagination I was forced into a similar situation while friggin' vacationing, then I would sensibly put my efforts into defending and supporting any numerous given enemies of Israel's population if there were to be invading forces or an unfathomable outbreak in terrorism (not to discredit the shitheadedness of any terrorist activities ever...)

Not too many people want to inherently kill... people. And certain people who do should probably avoid enlistment at all costs.

Stanley Burrell.

If I was wrong about your post I apologise.

Perhaps I am an idealist but my wish is for an independent Israel to peacefully co-exist with an independent Palestine with pre-1967 borders.

[xtc]

To get back on topic. Iran has announced that it has now successfully produced low-grade enriched uranium at a level sufficient to power nuclear plants. The President claims that Iran's nuclear efforts were peaceful and as such no nations should stand in their way.

With Iran's military capabilities and their new missle I think any military option will only start another war. This situation is very different from Iraq's in the early 80's. Iraq wasn't as far done the path as Iran is in its nuclear program, as such a surgical strike is out of the question as Iran's program is too large and spread out. Also Iraq never retaliated against Israel's strike against them. Iran most certainly will retaliate.

[Back]

Experts: Iran's Boast May Mean Little (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/12/AR2006041201466.html)
The Associated Press


CAIRO, Egypt -- Iran's boast that it has joined "the club of nuclear countries" by enriching uranium may rattle the Western world. But diplomats and experts familiar with the program say Iran still is far from producing any weapons-grade material needed for bombs and may be exaggerating its own progress.

"The Iranians are deliberately trying to hype this up," David Albright, president of the Washington-based Institute for Science and International Security, said Wednesday.

He called the step that Iran announced with great fanfare Tuesday _ the use of 164 centrifuges to enrich small amounts of uranium _ merely a small and expected advance.

By trumpeting its successes so forcefully, Iran may be trying to apply political pressure _ aiming to convince the U.N. Security Council that its nuclear capability is so far along that no sanctions can dissuade it. The Security Council has ordered Iran to stop all enrichment by April 28, and the chief U.N. nuclear inspector, Mohamed ElBaradei, heads to Iran for talks Friday to try to resolve the international standoff.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I tend to agree with this article. Its going to take Iran many years before they can develop a weapon so this announcement is nothing more than Iran testing the West’s rhetoric. A bold move on their part because I wouldn’t put it past Bush and Co. to actually strike, which would be the most foolish move of all time.

[Sean of the Thread]

You're right! We should actually let them continue to develops missles and nuclear weapons knowing their intent is DEATH TO ISRAEL!!! Israel should just wait until their done developing and then deal with it.

[xtc]

You're right! We should actually let them continue to develops missles and nuclear weapons knowing their intent is DEATH TO ISRAEL!!! Israel should just wait until their done developing and then deal with it.

Bush doesn't speak for all of America and the President of Iran doesn't speak for all of Iran.

Iran has announced it has missles that can evade radar and SAMS. It is a long range missile that can reach Israel and US bases in the Middle East.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10794

Iran has also announced it has high speed underwater missiles that can destroy huge warships and Submarines, it travels at speeds of 350 km/h, as such even if radar can detect it the ships and submarines can't evade it because of its speed.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/04/02/missile-060402.html


Now lets factor in that Israel doesn't have a plane capable of reaching Iran and that India most likely won't allow a launch from its country as India has been working with Iran on a gas pipeline from Iran to India.

Let's also consider that Iran has a much bigger nuclear program than Iraq did in the 80's, when Israel wiped it out, so a few jets won't suffice, we will need an entire fleet.

Also consider that Iran has learned from Iraq and spread out its nuclear program across Iran making it harder to target.

Also consider that when Israel attacked Iraq's nuclear facility in the 80's there wasn't much of a backlash. However Iran will most certainly retaliate if attacked. Iran has a democratically elected President and the vast majority of Iranian citizens support Iran's nuclear ambitions.

So what happens if we attack? I am sure Iran will use some of those missiles, perhaps they will enter the frey in Iraq? Can we afford to fight another war in the middle east? Will the other countries get involved?

Lastly our intelligence about Iraq was dead wrong, what happens if we attack Iran and find out their nuclear program was only for power and not weapons.

This time let's think before we start another war.

[Back]

Diplomacy first supposedly. Agreed its a complex issue, but everyone needs to put something on the table to stop this from escalating into Armageddon in the Middle East.

People, read The Art of War by Sun-Tzu. I can’t recommend it enough. Its short and simple. I get the feeling Bush and Co. have not even heard of it.

[Sean of the Thread]

Bush doesn't speak for all of America and the President of Iran doesn't speak for all of Iran.

Iran has announced it has missles that can evade radar and SAMS. It is a long range missile that can reach Israel and US bases in the Middle East.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10794

Iran has also announced it has high speed underwater missiles that can destroy huge warships and Submarines, it travels at speeds of 350 km/h, as such even if radar can detect it the ships and submarines can't evade it because of its speed.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/04/02/missile-060402.html


Now lets factor in that Israel doesn't have a plane capable of reaching Iran and that India most likely won't allow a launch from its country as India has been working with Iran on a gas pipeline from Iran to India.

Let's also consider that Iran has a much bigger nuclear program than Iraq did in the 80's, when Israel wiped it out, so a few jets won't suffice, we will need an entire fleet.

Also consider that Iran has learned from Iraq and spread out its nuclear program across Iran making it harder to target.

Also consider that when Israel attacked Iraq's nuclear facility in the 80's there wasn't much of a backlash. However Iran will most certainly retaliate if attacked. Iran has a democratically elected President and the vast majority of Iranian citizens support Iran's nuclear ambitions.

So what happens if we attack? I am sure Iran will use some of those missiles, perhaps they will enter the frey in Iraq? Can we afford to fight another war in the middle east? Will the other countries get involved?

Lastly our intelligence about Iraq was dead wrong, what happens if we attack Iran and find out their nuclear program was only for power and not weapons.

This time let's think before we start another war.

Bush DOES speak for all of America. Such is the way of ELECTED OFFICIALS.

Israel does have planes/missles/ninjas that can wtf pwn Iran. They have more than a "few" jets. They have every military capability that we do. They have spectacular special forces.

Iran does not stand a chance. Diplomacy IS the best issue but the whole DEATH TO ISRAEL policy will have to diminish for it to work.

Absolfuckinglutely other countries will get involved. "and the vast majority of Iranian citizens support Iran's nuclear ambitions" IE DESTROY ISRAEL.

I agree the whole thing is a sad clusterfuck.. and unless they stance down things in this world are going to become alot worse. For them first and everyone else second.



Speaking on special forces without saying anything particular.. the USN SEALS for instance go on daily missions around the world even before the war /s. It's not a problem.. it's a solution.

[xtc]

Bush DOES speak for all of America. Such is the way of ELECTED OFFICIALS.

He doesn't speak for me and I am sure many other Americans would agree that he doesn't speak for them. My point was the opinion if the Iranian President isn't necessarily the opinion of the majority of Iranian's on this issue.


Israel does have planes/missles/ninjas that can wtf pwn Iran. They have more than a "few" jets. They have every military capability that we do. They have spectacular special forces.

Israel's planes can't make it to Iran, it is too far. They have an impressive military but it is significantly smaller than ours. They also lack aircraft carriers. Now what happens if Israel attacks Iran? What other nations will side with Iran, what would be the repercussions?


Iran does not stand a chance. Diplomacy IS the best issue but the whole DEATH TO ISRAEL policy will have to diminish for it to work.

Iran doesn't stand a chance against who? Regardless do we really want to start another war? So far we are fighting against Iraq and Afghanistan. Now we are going to start a war with Iran? The Muslim world already thinks America is out to attack them, this will just entrench that view. This will totally destabilise the region. Pakistan is a nuclear nation and so is Isreal.

Iran doesn't have a death to Isreal policy only its President. I agree that I would like to see Iran tone down its rhetoric.


Absolfuckinglutely other countries will get involved. "and the vast majority of Iranian citizens support Iran's nuclear ambitions" IE DESTROY ISRAEL.

That is a massive leap in logic. America tried to make Iran an nuclear nation in the 70's when the Shah was in charge. They believe they have as much right as anyone to nuclear power. So extending your hypothesis that Iran's nuclear ambitions are really a death to Israel policy, what happens when Iran launches a nuclear attack against Israel? Israel launches a nuclear attack against Iran and at the end of the day both nations are history. Not exactly a smart plan which is why I doubt that is what they are after.


I agree the whole thing is a sad clusterfuck.. and unless they stance down things in this world are going to become alot worse. For them first and everyone else second.

I doubt they will stand down. I think what we have to do is convince them to work with the IAEA on their nuclear program so it can be monitored internationally, which is more than Israel did.



Speaking on special forces without saying anything particular.. the USN SEALS for instance go on daily missions around the world even before the war /s. It's not a problem.. it's a solution.

Iran's program is too big to just send a few seals in. It would have to be a large aerial assault.

[Sean of the Thread]

>>He doesn't speak for me and I am sure many other Americans would agree that he doesn't speak for them. My point was the opinion if the Iranian President isn't necessarily the opinion of the majority of Iranian's on this issue.<<

Despite if you agree with him or not.. he speaks for you. The only way you can change that is to not be a citizen.

It's been believed for years that Israel has several smaller "strike" carriers available for use when the time comes. They already have submarines capable of everything.

>>So extending your hypothesis that Iran's nuclear ambitions are really a death to Israel policy, what happens when Iran launches a nuclear attack against Israel?<<
It's not a Hypothesis.. it's their policy. Death to Israel! They don't care of the repercussions..that's how martydom works. Mutual self destruction wouldn't bother them in the least.

We're not at war AGAINST Iraq or Afghanistan. We are fighting a war AGAINST terrorism IN Afghanistan and Iraq.


I have to go walk my dog.

[Skirmisher]

Israel's planes can't make it to Iran, it is too far. They have an impressive military but it is significantly smaller than ours. They also lack aircraft carriers. Now what happens if Israel attacks Iran? What other nations will side with Iran, what would be the repercussions?

...

Iran's program is too big to just send a few seals in. It would have to be a large aerial assault.
I think you seriously underestimate Israels sense of self preservation as well as their military capabilities.

If you think that were Israel to conclude that to prevent Iran from becoming nuclear capable a massive airstrike were needed and the US were to refuse to help that that would stop them you are sorely mistaken.

I hope that the repercussions of such an act are not ever found out, but Iran would be the ones responsible for making it happen if they continue with the rhetoric and sabre rattling.

[Sean of the Thread]

Ahmadinejad repeats call for Israel's destruction

Friday, April 14, 2006; Posted: 6:15 p.m. EDT (22:15 GMT)

Adding fuel to that fire, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad repeated assertions that furthered concerns about Tehran's nuclear ambitions, again calling for Israel's destruction.

[Apotheosis]

If we go after Iran, we have to go for the jugular, and not putz around, like we're doing in Iraq.

[Daniel]

If it ever comes to military action in Iran (which I hope it doesn't) than it should be confined to the neutralization of Iranian's nuclear facilities.