Now thats a friggin old tree!

[Skirmisher]

Article tells about a tree that was over 2000 years old when Jesus was to have been up and about.



Cathedral Gets Offspring of Ancient Tree <-- click here for link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_sc/old_tree)

By JACOB ADELMAN, Associated Press WriterMon Dec 12, 7:24 PM ET

The National Cathedral will celebrate the holidays this year with an unusual Christmas tree: a pine seedling whose parent is said to be the oldest known tree on earth.

The seedling is a gift from the Champion Tree Project International. It breeds and clones the world's oldest and largest trees in hopes of compiling a living archive of the genes that give them their longevity.

"It's older than the great pyramids, older than Stonehenge," project President David Milarch said of the 4,770-year-old "Methuselah" bristlecone pine whose cone bore the seedling the cathedral will receive. "When Christ walked the earth it was already 2,700 years old."

The Methuselah pine grows at an altitude of 10,000 feet in the White Mountains near the California-Nevada border. It gets its name from a Hebrew patriarch mentioned in Genesis who was supposed to have lived for 969 years, making him the embodiment of longevity.

Milarch said project participants got special permission from the U.S. Forest Service to collect cones from Methuselah, one of which yielded the National Cathedral's seedling.

"That's pretty good for a 5,000-year-old tree to be able to reproduce itself," Milarch said.

Cathedral staff hope to plant the seedling in a special grove of trees used by students at its elementary school. Those trees have biblical connections and other interesting horticultural features.

"It has a biblical reference and is therefore of educational and instructional value to the children," said Dede Petri, president of the All Hallow's Guild, the support group responsible for beautifying the cathedral's grounds.

The tree will be formally presented Wednesday at the Land Development Breakthrough Conference at the Washington Convention Center. Milarch's group will also announce that its scientists had successfully cloned the "Hippocrates tree" which since 1961 has been on the grounds of the National Institutes of Health in suburban Bethesda, Md.

That tree is said to be the offspring of the sycamore in Greece under which Hippocrates, the medical philosopher, lectured. It was a gift to the United States from the Greek ambassador, but has been sick lately. Its clone will join it on the NIH property, and hopefully fare better.

"Both trees are several thousand years old and their progeny will ensure that these trees live on in our nation's capital," Milarch said. "They're Christmas gifts."

[Sean of the Thread]

Where is my chainsaw?

[ElanthianSiren]

I thought cloning was BAD when it came to the Christian faith. I guess science is only bad when it permits people to save human lives, while cloning a tree, consuming engineered food etc are all fine. Holy batshit double standards. Thanks for the chuckle Skirm.

-M

[Caiylania]

Wow. That is amazing. I knew trees could get OLD but damn, that sucker is Ancient.

[Kuyuk]

Watch out, they uproot and kick ass when they need to. WoW style.


K.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
I thought cloning was BAD when it came to the Christian faith. I guess science is only bad when it permits people to save human lives, while cloning a tree, consuming engineered food etc are all fine. Holy batshit double standards. Thanks for the chuckle Skirm.

-M

I'm pretty sure, from that article, the tree used for the Christmas tree was from a seedling, thus making it non-cloned.

The article said the compant who provided the seedling also clones trees, though.

Oh yeah, trees and human are pretty similar, anyway. Thanks for the chuckle, ES.

[Showal]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
I thought cloning was BAD when it came to the Christian faith. I guess science is only bad when it permits people to save human lives, while cloning a tree, consuming engineered food etc are all fine. Holy batshit double standards. Thanks for the chuckle Skirm.

-M

Because trees aren't alive when they're seeds. Obviously. Think about it. If all the mom trees killed their seeds, we wouldn't have trees. What I'm getting at, is Choose Life, your mom did.

On a serious note, I think cloning trees does not involve all the same steps as cloning animals. I think each tree in itself has a number of undifferentiated cells allowing for very easy cloning. However, cloning is always cloning, wherever you get your stem cells/eggs from. It's funny because I doubt anyone of that church even thought about how ridiculous this could make them look. Good eye, Melissa.

[Bobmuhthol]

Trees don't have brainz. Cloning a human is not a very smart idea atm.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Showal
It's funny because I doubt anyone of that church even thought about how ridiculous this could make them look. Which side is saying "trees are people too!" again?

[Artha]

Tree to flamewar in 2 replies. Is that a record?

[ElanthianSiren]

Well, cloned islet cells also do not have brains, however, the church has been an immense critic of cloning islet cells, even when the practice involves using stem cells from the participant's own spleen.

I'd say that makes them fairly against cloning in general, as the cells are not coming from an embryo or featus.

I like irony. It keeps me smiling, no flame war intended.

-M

[Daniel]

You're retarded.

[ElanthianSiren]

Wow a completely off-topic, trolling statement by Daniel. Do you have anything new to add? Your routine is getting stale.

-M

[Gan]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
I thought cloning was BAD when it came to the Christian faith. I guess science is only bad when it permits people to save human lives, while cloning a tree, consuming engineered food etc are all fine. Holy batshit double standards. Thanks for the chuckle Skirm.

-M


Actually, the tree with religious connotations was from a seedling/cone not cloned.

The cloned tree was from the grounds of the NIH which is not affiliated with religion but more from science.

The only connection between the National Cathedral who is receiving the seedling that originated from a cone and the NIH who is receiving the clone tree is the group that is presenting both trees to these organizations, Champion Tree Project International.

Way to misread the article.

[Edited on 12-14-2005 by Ganalon]

[Hulkein]

I tried to explain that in like the fifth post of the thread, but she either didn't notice it or ignored it since it contradicted what she wished to believe.

[ElanthianSiren]

Since you seem to be having trouble comprehending how trees are cloned, here is an animation from the college in california that aided with some of this research on how to clone pine trees. It's aimed at 11th graders and entry level college students.

Earlier, I provided a more in-depth analysis of the processes that would be required with this particular tree, but I thought pictures might be better for some. If you still don't get it, I'm not sure that there are smaller words to explain it.

http://www.bioteach.ubc.ca/TeachingResources/Genetics/ClonedTreeAlexLane.swf

As you see, you use the cones in conjunction with whatever media the tree also requires in its usual reproductive cycle.

Hukein I did not respond to your point because I thought it was fairly obvious that any tree that lives up to 3 years is a seedling; obviously, the tree that this came "from" as you said, was not a seedling. Further, your point was meaningless as a seedling does not mean grown naturally and growing from a cone does not mean that the tree was grown naturally either.

-M

[Hulkein]

The only thing I know about trees is how to climb them and build forts in them.

That being said, reading the article at face value indicates two different trees. One in which a seedling was taken naturally, and one that was cloned.


The National Cathedral will celebrate the holidays this year with an unusual Christmas tree: a pine seedling whose parent is said to be the oldest known tree on earth.

The seedling is a gift from the Champion Tree Project International. It breeds and clones the world's oldest and largest trees in hopes of compiling a living archive of the genes that give them their longevity.

It mentions the seedling is from CTPI, which BREEDS and clones older trees. The tree that is going to the Christian group is never said to be cloned in the article.

It did, however, say this about a different tree:


Milarch's group will also announce that its scientists had successfully cloned the "Hippocrates tree" which since 1961 has been on the grounds of the National Institutes of Health in suburban Bethesda, Md.

That cloned tree is going to the U.S. government, not a church or whatever.

It never calls the cloned tree a seedling, it calls it a cloned tree, so judging from what is in the article there is a difference.

Now if trees don't produce seedlings after a certain amount of time, then I'm wrong, but as I said I'm only going from what's in the article. I'm not familiar with advanced tree breeding.

[Edited on 12-14-2005 by Hulkein]

[Daniel]

Wow a completely off-topic, trolling statement by Daniel. Do you have anything new to add? Your routine is getting stale.

^

First of all. It was on topic. Your ascertations and therefore YOU are retarded.

Second of all, it is very well established that you are retarded. I'd blame it on the heroine if I was you, but either way: No. I don't have anything to add.

[Skirmisher]

Well okie dokie then, yet another thread going awry.

Any more off topic posts will go bye bye.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Daniel

First of all. It was on topic. Your ascertations and therefore YOU are retarded.

Exactly which 'ascertation' do you disagree with in this thread then?

-M

[Artha]

I wish we could all get along and marvel at nature's wonders and the staggering age of the tree :sniffle:

[HarmNone]

Heh. Yeah, Artha. Me, too. I guess, however, that can only happen when pigs fly; therefore, I won't hold my breath. :(

[Artha]

On an even sadder note, there is not a single good picture of this tree in all of cyber space.

[Ravenstorm]

I like knowing that tree was already 200 years old when the Great Pyramid was a gleam in Cheops eye. Way cool.

Raven

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Artha
On an even sadder note, there is not a single good picture of this tree in all of cyber space.

There is a good one in my plant physiology text, but I agree, the ones I found online weren't stellar. The reason for this is that california parks and rec does not tell people where the tree lives, so it's hard to find the actual tree that was used in this endeavor. They've been quoted as saying they're afraid of vandalism/damage to it.

The picture in the book is the tree backlit by sunset and highlights how stark its landscape is. I agree that they are an absolute marvel in many ways.

Other Bristlecone Pines:
http://www.seanansorge.com/walkabout/large/bristlecone_pine_02c.jpg
that one's not too bad.

http://www.grazulis.com/eastsierra/images/bristleconemoon.jpg
another cool one

-M

[Ravenstorm]

This (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/methuselah/) is a decent site. Click on Explore the Methuselah Grove and there are some nice videos of the trees. It also says there's been one discovered that's even older than 'Methuselah'.


In case you're wondering, the tree shown in the NOVA program is not the Methuselah Tree. To protect this venerable old tree, the U.S. Forest Service refuses to give its location or identity within the Methuselah Grove -- as does the scientist who recently discovered an even older bristlecone than Methuselah. But rest assured that some of the trees you see in these panoramas are among the oldest living things on Earth.

Raven

[Edited on 12-14-2005 by Ravenstorm]

[Gan]

Here's the official project website and an interesting article describing whats going to happen.

Only question is if the church is going to use the cross polinated seedling in its found state as the one to be planted or is it going to use a genetically 'cloned' one that had buds grafted onto it. Hypocracy would ensue if they did use a grafted one. Although the initial article in this thread was quite unclear on that.

http://www.championtreeproject.org/Methuselah/Launch.htm?nav=hptoc_n

and

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/06/17/MN25503.DTL&type=printable