Federal Air Marshal kills passenger claiming to have a bomb.

[Ebondale]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051208/D8EBPR300.html

MIAMI (AP) - An agitated passenger who claimed to have a bomb in his backpack was shot and killed by a federal air marshal Wednesday after he bolted frantically from a jetliner that was boarding for takeoff, officials said. No bomb was found.

It was the first time since the Sept. 11 attacks that an air marshal had shot at anyone, Homeland Security Department spokesman Brian Doyle said. Another federal official said there was no apparent link to terrorism.

According to a witness, the passenger ran down the aisle of the Boeing 757, flailing his arms, while his wife tried to explain that he was mentally ill and had not taken his medication.

The passenger, identified as Rigoberto Alpizar, indicated there was a bomb in his bag and was confronted by air marshals but ran off the aircraft, Doyle said. The marshals went after him and ordered him to get down on the ground, but he did not comply and was shot when he apparently reached into the bag, Doyle said.

--- --- --- ---

What can I say but: The Air Marshal performed his job.

I really don't see why the media is making a big deal about it. If someone in an airport claims to have a bomb, disobeys Federal agents, and reaches into a bag -- they fucked up. Period.

Thoughts?

[Kainen]

Originally posted by Ebondale
What can I say but: The Air Marshal performed his job.

I really don't see why the media is making a big deal about it. If someone in an airport claims to have a bomb, disobeys Federal agents, and reaches into a bag -- they fucked up. Period.

Thoughts?

I have to agree. Why the fuck didn't his wife make him take his meds???

[Ebondale]

Exactly.

You'd think that in this day and age someone who is mentally ill wouldn't board a plane without taking their medications.

For me, my wife has a mental illness called "Schizo-affective disorder". We try not to take planes if we can but if we have to she pretty much dopes herself up so she won't have a psychotic episode on an airplane. Which needless to say, would be extraordinarily bad.

Even my wife is all like, "Wow that guy is a dumbass."

[Terminator X]

If he had actual terrorist ... linkage, the not instantly BOOM HEADSHOTting of him and retrospective capturing of this man alive via non-lethal weaponry would have been much more worthy. That being said, and from reading the article, the marshals were more than patient and keen to the exact procedure and the take-down measure they executed.

The outcome, unfortunately, was pretty much unavoidable...

- The Termite

[Ebondale]

Terrorist cells don't tell their martyrs anything about their operations. More often than not the person doesn't know that they are going to die until a week or even a day before hand.

Capturing him alive would have been worthless if he were actually a terrorist.

[Terminator X]

Originally posted by Ebondale
Terrorist cells don't tell their martyrs anything about their operations. More often than not the person doesn't know that they are going to die until a week or even a day before hand.

Capturing him alive would have been worthless if he were actually a terrorist.

I disagree on the account from non-personal experience that it is lot easier to have a captured assassin(s) undergo the rigorous non-torturous methods of interrogation as elaborated by Condi Rice circa. December 7, 2005 as a method of extracting rich information than *ding* instant-death.

I would have a much easier time believing that if law enforcement had captured and daintily interrogated the 9-11 hijackers, or any other thwarted color-coated scenario, that extrapolating information from an object with a mouth that will tell you things whilst sodium-pentathol'd, amongst other things, would serve as a far better tool to excute covert operations instead of the traditional "let's-not-bomb-the-shit-out-of-certain-establishments-based-on-misinformation" intelligence.

-- If the oppurtunity for what are obviously extremely quick-witted marshals arrived to incapacitate an alleged hijacker(s), then you cannot make me believe anything other than that the interrogation of such hypothetical terrorists/hijackers/rebels/etc. could not lead to faaar better gathering of intelligence.

That being said, a high powered bear spray used liberally will have a pretty good chance of brutally killing its victim if not treated quickly by medical means.

- The Termite

[Skirmisher]

Sometimes the media ticks me off.

The reporter covering this story when I was watching yesterday said something along the lines of, "...and with the discovery that there were in fact no explosives and that he may have been bi-polar coming afterwards there will be alot of second guessing in the days to come."

I stood there thinking that the reporter must be incredibly hard up for a story or just too stupid to have his job.

It's sad, I do feel badly for the family, but there was nothing wrong in the least from reports that I have heard with how the marshall acted.

If anything, I feel for the Air Marshall(s) involved.

[Fission]

First headline I saw this morning was a nice bold 'Did They Have To Shoot Him?'

Should be interesting to see how far the media slants this by the end of it all.

[Caiylania]

They did their job, but I do feel for the family. The marshall should not get in trouble though, if that guy HAD been about to set off a bomb the marshall would have been touted as saving hundreds of lives. He had to make a decision and made it.

Though I still see a lawsuit coming.

[fallenSaint]

There are some instances you can't slide by with after the 9/11 crap and this is certainly a showcase of what not to do. I'd personally say it's a example of a job very well done.

[Sean of the Thread]

That air marshall wil have ZERO amount of second guessing in the days to come.

[Warriorbird]

non-torturous

:snickers: Yet, curiously not performed on American soil.

I have no problem with what the Air Marshal did.

[CrystalTears]

I don't have a problem with what the air marshall did either.

Mentioning bombs is not something they take lightly anymore. Airports have signs at checkpoints specifically stating to not speak or joke about having or seeing a bomb as they will take disciplinary action against it.

The outcome had the person had a bomb and the marshall done nothing would be far worse than taking the action that he did.

[Kuyuk]

If you say you have a bomb in an airport, you're going to get fucked up.



K.

[Back]

Very dumb move on dead guys part. Thats what you get. Dead.

Then again. Whats wrong with our security system if we dont know for certain who has a bomb and who dosent when they are about to get on a plane?

[CrystalTears]

We questioned that too, Backlash. You'd think they would know what he had on him or in his bags after passing the checkpoint. Although I do realize that if someone really wanted to bring a bomb on a plane, they'd find a way to make it undetected in an x-ray. Still... made me wonder why they didn't suspect anything beforehand.

Then again, you're not allowed to even JOKE about bombs, so it really didn't surprise me.

[Fission]

We questioned that too, Backlash. You'd think they would know what he had on him or in his bags after passing the checkpoint. Although I do realize that if someone really wanted to bring a bomb on a plane, they'd find a way to make it undetected in an x-ray. Still... made me wonder why they didn't suspect anything beforehand.

Maybe look it at it another way. The air marshal is another layer of the security system, basically a redundancy in case something in one of the previous layers fails. The previous layers did actually function as they should, but the air marshal went with the situation at hand (a scenario where the previous security had apparently failed) and acted appropriately in turn.

[Jayvn]

The only thing that pissed me off last night when I watched it was the new kept saying the 'victim'.. I was like fucker said he had a bomb, I would have shot him too.

Originally posted by Backlash

Then again. Whats wrong with our security system if we dont know for certain who has a bomb and who dosent when they are about to get on a plane?

What exactly is the Air Marshal supposed to do? Does he just sit back and his chair and think to himself "That guy doesn't have a bomb, he went through the checkpoint...what a jokester."

How you reach the conclusion that this is in any way reflects badly on security is beyond me.

[Bastard]

Dude fucked up and got what he deserved. My hat is off to the air martial for killing someone that needed killing. Sucks that he has to deal with the emotional aftermath of taking someone's life, but he did sign up for the job knowing that it was a possibility.

[Czeska]

If security were foolproof, we wouldn't need the marshalls out there to begin with.


The guy did his job. I'm glad I don't have to make choices like that in mine.

[DeV]

Some form of second guessing is to be expected, regardless of the circumstances, when you've taken someones life. The marshall did his job, and I don't see how he could have done it any differently all things considered. Luckily an air marshall was on this particular flight.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Backlash
Then again. Whats wrong with our security system if we dont know for certain who has a bomb and who dosent when they are about to get on a plane?

That might be the dumbest thought put forth by Backlash since boycotting elections.

[Back]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets

Originally posted by Backlash

Then again. Whats wrong with our security system if we dont know for certain who has a bomb and who dosent when they are about to get on a plane?

What exactly is the Air Marshal supposed to do? Does he just sit back and his chair and think to himself "That guy doesn't have a bomb, he went through the checkpoint...what a jokester."

How you reach the conclusion that this is in any way reflects badly on security is beyond me.

Truth of it is, security did their job. The guy did not have a bomb. In fact, when was the last time someone in America bombed a plane? The hijackers on 9/11 used box cutters.

But wouldnt it be better if our security were such that if a person came up to the plane claiming they had a bomb everyone would just laugh at him?

Air marshals will never go away regardless. And I still agree the marshal did his job correctly.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
We questioned that too, Backlash. You'd think they would know what he had on him or in his bags after passing the checkpoint.

The Air Marshall doesn't communicate with the bag checkers about every single passenger coming aboard.

It's the Marshall's job to be there incase something gets passed the checkers, or people try to take the plane by force.

I guess it shows that every human system has its chance at failure; is that really a surprise?

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Backlash
Then again. Whats wrong with our security system if we dont know for certain who has a bomb and who dosent when they are about to get on a plane?

That might be the dumbest thought put forth by Backlash since boycotting elections.

Thanks, but I can’t take credit for the idea of boycotting elections. Its probably the Sunnis you should credit.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

non-torturous

:snickers: Yet, curiously not performed on American soil.

I have no problem with what the Air Marshal did.

Yeah that, no secret flights, John McCain didn't make an amendment to ban torture. Abu Ghraib torture never happened. The CIA never wrote a manual on torture and MK Ultra never happened.

Yeah shit about the guy being mentally ill and that he didn't take his meds but the Marshall had no choice. Of course no terrorist is going to announce his bomb but the Marshall didn't have time to second guess himself.

[Xandalf]

Originally posted by Backlash
Truth of it is, security did their job. The guy did not have a bomb. In fact, when was the last time someone in America bombed a plane? The hijackers on 9/11 used box cutters.


You seem to have forgotten Richard Reid, who hid a bomb in his shoe and would have been sucessful in detonating it had the passengers on the plane, NOT Security or or Air Marshals or anyone else, noticed and kicked Reid's ass.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by CrystalTears
We questioned that too, Backlash. You'd think they would know what he had on him or in his bags after passing the checkpoint.

The Air Marshall doesn't communicate with the bag checkers about every single passenger coming aboard.

It's the Marshall's job to be there incase something gets passed the checkers, or people try to take the plane by force.

I guess it shows that every human system has its chance at failure; is that really a surprise?

Oh I totally agree with you. I don't believe AT ALL that the checkpoints are the end-all, be-all of airport security.

I was always a big supporter of air marshalls. So the news of one of them actually being there to do the job makes me feel a whole lot better about air travel security.

[xtc]

This thread brings an interesting question to mind.

The guy who was killed suffered from mental illness and didn't take his medication, which we presume is why he did such a dumbass thing.

In the province I live in Ontario, Canada, 15 years ago you could be forcibly confined, psychiatric hospital or psychitatric hospital for not taking your medication. Then a socialist government came into power and decided that law was a violation of human rights and abolished it. Since then legions of mentally ill have fallen to the street. They can't be forced to go to a mental hospital and while many of them were working, productive members of society before stopping their medication, now many of them have lost their homes and become non-functioning.

Should a mentally ill person be forced to take their medication and should we be able to confine them if they don't? (Only long enough to get them back on their medication and stable again)

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by xtc]

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by xtc]

[El Burro]

WTF!?


link (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1383832&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

Egyptian Man Had Been Stopped at New York Airport; Shoes Tested Positive for Explosive
By BRIAN ROSS and CHRIS ISHAM
Dec. 8, 2005 — - FBI officials report that they have located the Egyptian man whose documents showed discrepancies after he was held at JFK airport last week. The man was in Iowa and is not considered a threat.

Federal law enforcement sources told ABC News they had been on the alert for a possible shoe bomber when a federal air marshal opened fire at the Miami International Airport yesterday.

Yesterday, an agitated passenger claiming to have a bomb in his backpack was shot and killed by a federal air marshal, officials said. No bomb was found.

Officials said a 50-year-old Egyptian man was stopped a week ago at New York's John F. Kennedy Airport. Sources said he had a suspicious pair of shoes that tested positive five times for the explosive substance TATP on the interior of his shoes between the heel and sole.

Federal officials said the man's shoes were remarkably similar to those used by shoe bomber Richard Reid, who attempted to blow up an American Airlines jet over the Atlantic four years ago.

The Egyptian man's destination was Des Moines, Iowa, sources said, and he claimed he was a student at Iowa State University in Ames.

After holding him overnight, airport security in New York released him. The FBI was notified after he was released and put out a nationwide alert. FBI officials confirmed that the man's story was true and that he was not a threat.

[Leetahkin]

I think the Marshall was right in how the situation was handled. You have but mere seconds to think about and act on a situation that's quickly unfolding in front of you.

It's tragic, what happened, but very avoidable (I think) on the passenger's/passenger's wife's part.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
But wouldnt it be better if our security were such that if a person came up to the plane claiming they had a bomb everyone would just laugh at him?The only way to be completely safe is to lose all freedom.
Originally posted by xtc
Should a mentally ill person be forced to take their medication and should we be able to confine them if they don't?The first part: absolutely not, unless the mentally ill person (while mentally healthy) said that was what they wanted to happen (this is one of several reasons living wills should be mandatory). Drugs don't cure mental illness, and I'll be damned if I spend the rest of my life as a zombie.
The second part: absolutely if and only if they present a danger to society beyond the danger posed by the average citizen.

[xtc]

I just read the article in a Toronto paper, The Toronto Sun. The paper is a right wing tabloid type like The New York Post.

The article said the man was running & flailing his arms and that his wife was running behind him, saying my husband he's bipolar, he hasn't taken his medication. Also the man was off the aircraft. The witness was passenger Mary Gardner.

If this is true, the marshals had information to contradict the belief the man was a terrorist.

Toronto Sun story (http://www.torontosun.com/News/World/2005/12/08/1343799-sun.html)

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by xtc]

[CrystalTears]

If this is true, the marshals had information to contradict the belief the man was a terrorist.

Why? Because a woman was running behind him yelling, "he's sick, he's sick!". You think that if they let that go, that other possible terrorists won't make the same claim? Do you really think a wife is going to say "Yes, kill him! He's a terrorist!"?

It also happened onboard the aircraft.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13353797.htm


Alpizar dashed to the front of the plane, knocking down flight attendants and startling passengers ready for takeoff.

Passengers said Alpizar's companion returned to her seat to retrieve their luggage. But before she could return, Alpizar was already being confronted by two federal air marshals.

Alpizar, clutching his backpack, did the wrong thing. He ''uttered a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb'' in his backpack, said Jim Bauer, Special Agent in Charge of the Federal Air Marshals service in Miami.

The marshals ordered him to the ground. But Alpizar didn't comply.

Alpizar reached into his bag instead. And in that split second, the armed marshals made their decision. They opened fire.

''The threat escalated,'' Bauer explained. ``He was in the vicinity of the front door when he was shot.''

He fucked up and was killed for it. It's tragic, and I feel badly for his family that have to deal with this, but the truth of the matter is that it's never been a mystery as to what happens to people if they imply or even joke around about having a bomb on a plane. If he was mentally unstable and wouldn't take his medication, then the family should have really reconsidered traveling that day.

[Edited on 12/8/2005 by CrystalTears]

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

If this is true, the marshals had information to contradict the belief the man was a terrorist.

Why? Because a woman was running behind him yelling, "he's sick, he's sick!". You think that if they let that go, that other possible terrorists won't make the same claim? Do you really think a wife is going to say "Yes, kill him! He's a terrorist?".

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13353797.htm


Alpizar, clutching his backpack, did the wrong thing. He ''uttered a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb'' in his backpack, said Jim Bauer, Special Agent in Charge of the Federal Air Marshals service in Miami.

The marshals ordered him to the ground. But Alpizar didn't comply.

Alpizar reached into his bag instead. And in that split second, the armed marshals made their decision. They opened fire.

''The threat escalated,'' Bauer explained. ``He was in the vicinity of the front door when he was shot.''


"She said a woman followed, shouting, "My husband! My husband!"

Gardner said she heard the woman say her husband was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and had not had his medication.

If they heard this, this was other information to evaluate.

What terrorist informs marshalls of his bomb and travels with his wife?

I would like to see independent witness accounts that he was reaching in his bag when he was shot.

If you remember the story in England of the man who was shot a few days after the subway bombings. The first day the media reported that Police men identified themselves to a man wearing a trench coat in summer, leaving a house that was being watched for terrorists, that they asked him to stop and when he didn't they gave chase. They claimed he was reaching in his backpack and that they had no choice but to shoot him on a subway platform.

A few days later it came out the man didn't leave the suspect terrorist residence, he wasn't wearing a trench coat, the cops were not in uniform and none of the witnesses heard the cops identify themselves to the man and that a witness to the shooting said he wasn't reaching into his bag.

I am not saying the marshall's decision was wrong. I am saying lets see what other information comes forward in the next few days.

[CrystalTears]

Again I say, BFD and SFW (so fucking what).

So because someone yells that the man is bipolar, we should just dismiss the fact that he could be holding a bomb and let the man go "cause he's sick"? Sorry if I'm being insensitive and don't give a shit what kind of mental state someone is to not take action with something as serious as possibly holding a bomb.

But you're right, we need to hear the story told a few dozen more times in different states and countries before we get all the right facts because obviously the people in Canada didn't get it as right as the people in FLORIDA where it happened.

[Sean of the Thread]

Exactly. I would have shot him for less.

Originally posted by xtc
If they heard this, this was other information to evaluate.


You can't honestly believe this. The man was apparently "sick", and it's a shame that he made the choices that he made. But you just have no grasp of the reality of the situation.

I don't care if the person that jumps up and says they have a bomb in their robe is a nun, the marshal's job is to remove the threat.

When you stand on a plane and say you have a bomb and then take off running, you are announcing that you are giving up all of your rights and that you have no interest in a fair trial--whether you realize it or not.

Obviously the IDEAL situation would be that the Marshal knew that the guy was bi-polar, knew that it was his wife, and knew that the guy didn't have a bomb---but it's completely ridiculous to expect the marshal to know any of those things. I don't care if the guy wasn't reaching into his bag, and was just running towards the causeway when he was shot.

Don't be so anxious to demonize any authority figure, and take off your blinders when you evaluate the situation.

[Brattt8525]

And if they had not shot him the public outcry woul dhave been YOU ENDANGERED US!!!!!!!!!!!!! Either way they will get the shitty end of the stick in this case. Lesson to be learned? Don't say i have a bomb then take off running flailing your arms.

[Warriorbird]

Having worked airport security (both checkpoints and patrol)... I'm really glad we have the Air Marshals. We're much less secure than a lot of foreign airports I've been through. Still.

Why? Real security annoys American people out of travelling and the airline industry is already fucked up.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Again I say, BFD and SFW (so fucking what).

So because someone yells that the man is bipolar, we should just dismiss the fact that he could be holding a bomb and let the man go "cause he's sick"? Sorry if I'm being insensitive and don't give a shit what kind of mental state someone is to not take action with something as serious as possibly holding a bomb.

But you're right, we need to hear the story told a few dozen more times in different states and countries before we get all the right facts because obviously the people in Canada didn't get it as right as the people in FLORIDA where it happened.

The story I referenced was written in a Toronto paper but was an Associated Press story. Sorry if I like all the facts to come before a jump to a knee jerk reaction.

As I said in my prior post, I am not saying that the marshalls made the wrong decision with the facts available. I am saying if his wife was running behind him saying "that's my husband, he's bipolar and hasn't taken his meds" they have other information to evaluate.

[CrystalTears]

At the time, there is nothing to evaluate. He said something about "bomb", they told him to get down, he ran with backpack. End of story. What his mental state was, whether he went into the bag, whether he was alone or with family, is all irrelevant. He fucked up. He got shot.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets
[quote]Originally posted by xtc
If they heard this, this was other information to evaluate.



You can't honestly believe this. The man was apparently "sick", and it's a shame that he made the choices that he made. But you just have no grasp of the reality of the situation.

What can I not believe? That if the marshalls see the man's wife running behind him screaming he is bipolar and he hasn't taken his meds that they have other information to evaluate. Yes I believe this, any good law enforcement officer should use all information available to evaluate a situation.


I don't care if the person that jumps up and says they have a bomb in their robe is a nun, the marshal's job is to remove the threat.

Yes a marshal's job is to remove a threat, this man wasn't a threat but presented himself as such, his wife came forward and let people know at the time he isn't a threat.


When you stand on a plane and say you have a bomb and then take off running, you are announcing that you are giving up all of your rights and that you have no interest in a fair trial--whether you realize it or not.

A stupid thing to do for sure, but ask yourself this. In the FIVE plus years since 9-11 how many bombers have announced themselves? Hell how many bombers have there been in America?


Obviously the IDEAL situation would be that the Marshal knew that the guy was bi-polar, knew that it was his wife, and knew that the guy didn't have a bomb---but it's completely ridiculous to expect the marshal to know any of those things. I don't care if the guy wasn't reaching into his bag, and was just running towards the causeway when he was shot.

I would say the marshal had a lot to assess in a short period of time including a women who says "that's my husband, he is bi-polar and he hasn't taken his meds", to which he must balance the fact he has a man who says he has a bomb and won't stop when asked.


Don't be so anxious to demonize any authority figure, and take off your blinders when you evaluate the situation.

I haven't demonised the marshall. I simply provided information that was missing in the first story posted. I have no blinders on, nor have I said that the marshall made the wrong decision with the information available. Stop being so defensive.

[Kefka]

At least one passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 924 maintains the federal air marshals were a little too quick on the draw when they shot and killed Rigoberto Alpizar as he frantically attempted to run off the airplane shortly before take-off.

"I don't think they needed to use deadly force with the guy," says John McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker from Sebastian, Fla. "He was getting off the plane." McAlhany also maintains that Alpizar never mentioned having a bomb.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked, 'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they called it."


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html

Originally posted by xtc
I am saying if his wife was running behind him saying "that's my husband, he's bipolar and hasn't taken his meds" they have other information to evaluate.

I agree. The other information to evaluate for me would have been "Who is this women?", "Is this really his wife?", "Are they working as a team?", "Do I have to shoot this woman as well?"

If she was chasing behind them yelling, then frankly, she's lucky she didn't get shot, too. In that kind of tense situation there is no time for a 5 minute evaluation before jumping into action.

Bottom line: No rational mind will fault the marshal's actions after the point in which the guy yells he has a bomb and makes a run for it. Next you'll be saying that he should have shot him in the hand to get his hand away from the backpack, rather than using lethal force...

[SpunGirl]

And what says that a bipolar person off his meds couldn't have a bomb, anyway? If I was getting ready to take the guy down and then heard he was a psycho off his meds, that'd make me all the more likely to act decisively.

-K

[CrystalTears]

Hell, the bipolar comment probably caused the guy to shoot him more. Crazy guy alert! Kill it!

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
And what says that a bipolar person off his meds couldn't have a bomb, anyway? If I was getting ready to take the guy down and then heard he was a psycho off his meds, that'd make me all the more likely to act decisively.


Couldn't agree more.

Jorddyn

[Warriorbird]

Crazy people and airports is a bad combination.

[Kefka]

Assuming he mentioned bomb at all. Did anyone other than the air marshalls respond? I'd prefer to hear the whole story. This sounds too much like that train incident a few months ago.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets

Originally posted by xtc
I am saying if his wife was running behind him saying "that's my husband, he's bipolar and hasn't taken his meds" they have other information to evaluate.

I agree. The other information to evaluate for me would have been "Who is this women?", "Is this really his wife?", "Are they working as a team?", "Do I have to shoot this woman as well?"

If she was chasing behind them yelling, then frankly, she's lucky she didn't get shot, too. In that kind of tense situation there is no time for a 5 minute evaluation before jumping into action.

Of course they couldn't have asked themselves. If she is his wife, could she be telling the truth? Could he not be a threat?


Bottom line: No rational mind will fault the marshal's actions after the point in which the guy yells he has a bomb and makes a run for it. Next you'll be saying that he should have shot him in the hand to get his hand away from the backpack, rather than using lethal force...

Some rational minds did and they witnessed the situation. It seems many people never heard the word bomb, (for my friend Crystal, this is the information I mentioned I was waiting for)

From the post above yours and the Time article

""I don't think they needed to use deadly force with the guy," says John McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker from Sebastian, Fla. "He was getting off the plane." McAlhany also maintains that Alpizar never mentioned having a bomb.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked, 'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they called it"

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Kefka
Assuming he mentioned bomb at all. Did anyone other than the air marshalls respond? I'd prefer to hear the whole story. This sounds too much like that train incident a few months ago.


Uh, who but the Air Marshals SHOULD respond? Isn't that their job?

Were I a passenger or a member of the flight crew in that situation, I wouldn't be like "HEY WAIT ARE YOU REALLY SURE THERE'S A BOMB?"

I would be staying the fuck out of the way.

-K

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by SpunGirl]

[CrystalTears]

So because one guy didn't hear it, it didn't happen. Perhaps if we interview everyone that was on that plane that day. If they ALL say they didn't hear the word, perhaps you have something. But going on the words of ONE passenger, since we don't even know where he was or how far from the incident, it doesn't really mean much.

WTF was I thinking. McAlhany said he didn't say it. Call off the dogs, xtc knows all. Go home.

[xtc]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Kefka
Assuming he mentioned bomb at all. Did anyone other than the air marshalls respond? I'd prefer to hear the whole story. This sounds too much like that train incident a few months ago.


Uh, who but the Air Marshals SHOULD respond? Isn't that their job?

Were I a passenger or a member of the flight crew in that situation, I wouldn't be like "HEY WAIT ARE YOU REALLY SURE THERE'S A BOMB?"

I would be staying the fuck out of the way.

-K

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by SpunGirl]

If the guy who was shot never mentioned the word bomb, so far I haven't read a story where the witnesses heard this, where is the justification for shooting the guy?

[Kefka]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Kefka
Assuming he mentioned bomb at all. Did anyone other than the air marshalls respond? I'd prefer to hear the whole story. This sounds too much like that train incident a few months ago.


Uh, who but the Air Marshals SHOULD respond? Isn't that their job?

Were I a passenger or a member of the flight crew in that situation, I wouldn't be like "HEY WAIT ARE YOU REALLY SURE THERE'S A BOMB?"

I would be staying the fuck out of the way.

-K

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by SpunGirl]

So you'd readily accept their story? Do you think they'd be honest if they realized they overreacted? If they screwed up, the first thing they'd do is cover their ass. I'd hate to think we've reached a point where we shoot first and ask questions later.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So because one guy didn't hear it, it didn't happen. Perhaps if we interview everyone that was on that plane that day. If they ALL say they didn't hear the word, perhaps you have something. But going on the words of ONE passenger, since we don't even know where he was or how far from the incident, it doesn't really mean much.

WTF was I thinking. McAlhany said he didn't say it. Call off the dogs, xtc knows all. Go home.

We have people on the plane who think the shooting was unnecessary. So far I haven't read a story where a witness heard the man say bomb. Sorry if I like to use my brain when evaluating a situation and assess all the facts rather than jumping to a knee jerk reaction of the situation. 9-11 was 5 years ago.

[Ebondale]

Bi-polar is the most over-diagnosed mental illness in the world today.

A good 90% of the people who are diagnosed with Bi-polar are nothing more than attention-whoring drama queens and do not have any chemical imbalance whatsoever. Just like ADD and ADHD were over-diagnosed in the 80's people are now diagnosed with BPD (Bi-polar Disorder) or Autism. Its fucking stupid.

My wife, as I said, has Schizo-affective Disorder. She sees and she hears very very disturbing things all the time and sometimes she blacks out and is completely unaware of her actions. She is between medications right now so it is just as good as if she weren't medicated at all. In the past few days I have witnessed her slash her leg a dozen times with a pair of scissors, bang her head repeatedly into a wall, throw a knife inside the house, scream and cry for twelve hours straight, attack me, and... be perfectly fine.

If you step onto an aircraft in the United States of America with a mental illness then you better be God damn good and ready to control yourself because I wouldn't expect an Air Marshal to understand "Oh, she has a mental illness!" if my wife got onto a plane and wiled out like that.

[CrystalTears]

''I don't know if they shot an innocent man or not,'' McAlhany said. ``I don't think he was armed or had a bomb. I think he had a mental illness. I don't think they really had to shoot him, but I hope he didn't holler something stupid.''

He obviously heard everything perfectly. :rolleyes:

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Ebondale
Bi-polar is the most over-diagnosed mental illness in the world today.

A good 90% of the people who are diagnosed with Bi-polar are nothing more than attention-whoring drama queens and do not have any chemical imbalance whatsoever. Just like ADD and ADHD were over-diagnosed in the 80's people are now diagnosed with BPD (Bi-polar Disorder) or Autism. Its fucking stupid.

My wife, as I said, has Schizo-affective Disorder. She sees and she hears very very disturbing things all the time and sometimes she blacks out and is completely unaware of her actions. She is between medications right now so it is just as good as if she weren't medicated at all. In the past few days I have witnessed her slash her leg a dozen times with a pair of scissors, bang her head repeatedly into a wall, throw a knife inside the house, scream and cry for twelve hours straight, attack me, and... be perfectly fine.

If you step onto an aircraft in the United States of America with a mental illness then you better be God damn good and ready to control yourself because I wouldn't expect an Air Marshal to understand "Oh, she has a mental illness!" if my wife got onto a plane and wiled out like that.

Because they were only trained to shoot, right?

[CrystalTears]

What would you have suggested? Tackling him to the ground, causing the probably bomb to go off? Talk to him calmly, even though he RAN away from the marshall after being told to get down?

Seriously.. what would you like for the air marshalls to do while still in a plane?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Kefka
Assuming he mentioned bomb at all. Did anyone other than the air marshalls respond? I'd prefer to hear the whole story. This sounds too much like that train incident a few months ago.


Uh, who but the Air Marshals SHOULD respond? Isn't that their job?

Were I a passenger or a member of the flight crew in that situation, I wouldn't be like "HEY WAIT ARE YOU REALLY SURE THERE'S A BOMB?"

I would be staying the fuck out of the way.

-K

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by SpunGirl]

If the guy who was shot never mentioned the word bomb, so far I haven't read a story where the witnesses heard this, where is the justification for shooting the guy?

SIMPLE ANSWER. If you don't fucking comply with the orders of an officer in a situation like that.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
What would you have suggested? Tackling him to the ground, causing the probably bomb to go off? Talk to him calmly, even though he RAN away from the marshall after being told to get down?

Seriously.. what would you like for the air marshalls to do while still in a plane?

He was out of the plane and so far, the marshalls are the only ones that mentioned bomb. I'm still waiting for a passenger to mention to confirm before I make a judgement. I don't know about you, but if I can make a bomb, I think I could make a remote for a bomb as well.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Kefka

Originally posted by CrystalTears
What would you have suggested? Tackling him to the ground, causing the probably bomb to go off? Talk to him calmly, even though he RAN away from the marshall after being told to get down?

Seriously.. what would you like for the air marshalls to do while still in a plane?

He was out of the plane and so far, the marshalls are the only ones that mentioned bomb. I'm still waiting for a passenger to mention to confirm before I make a judgement. I don't know about you, but if I can make a bomb, I think I could make a remote for a bomb as well.

See that part is irrelevant... IF YOU DON'T COMPLY YOU DIE. Plain and fucking simple. Happens all the GD time to criminals and sometimes retarded innocents but that's the way it is.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Kefka
Assuming he mentioned bomb at all. Did anyone other than the air marshalls respond? I'd prefer to hear the whole story. This sounds too much like that train incident a few months ago.


Uh, who but the Air Marshals SHOULD respond? Isn't that their job?

Were I a passenger or a member of the flight crew in that situation, I wouldn't be like "HEY WAIT ARE YOU REALLY SURE THERE'S A BOMB?"

I would be staying the fuck out of the way.

-K

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by SpunGirl]

If the guy who was shot never mentioned the word bomb, so far I haven't read a story where the witnesses heard this, where is the justification for shooting the guy?

SIMPLE ANSWER. If you don't fucking comply with the orders of an officer in a situation like that.

So no bomb, no mention of bomb. Wife tells you her husband is bi-polar and off his meds. So his big crime is what? waiving his hands in the air and not listening to air marshal? Don't air marshals wear civil clothing?

I am glad you weren't around when the Constitution was being drafted. People forget the Constitution was formed after a war that makes 9-11 look like a joke.

[Sean of the Thread]

<<So no bomb, no mention of bomb. Wife tells you her husband is bi-polar and off his meds. So his big crime is what? waiving his hands in the air and not listening to air marshal? Don't air marshals wear civil clothing? >>

You sir are a fucking idiot.

<<I am glad you weren't around when the Constitution was being drafted. People forget the Constitution was formed after a war that makes 9-11 look like a joke.>>

You make absolutely no point.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Kefka

Originally posted by CrystalTears
What would you have suggested? Tackling him to the ground, causing the probably bomb to go off? Talk to him calmly, even though he RAN away from the marshall after being told to get down?

Seriously.. what would you like for the air marshalls to do while still in a plane?

He was out of the plane and so far, the marshalls are the only ones that mentioned bomb. I'm still waiting for a passenger to mention to confirm before I make a judgement. I don't know about you, but if I can make a bomb, I think I could make a remote for a bomb as well.

This all happened ON THE PLANE. It was about to LEAVE. Where are you people getting that it was off the plane?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Xyelin
SIMPLE ANSWER. If you don't fucking comply with the orders of an officer in a situation like that.

So no bomb, no mention of bomb. Wife tells you her husband is bi-polar and off his meds. So his big crime is what? waiving his hands in the air and not listening to air marshal? Don't air marshals wear civil clothing?

NOT COMPLYING AND RUNNING AWAY FROM AUTHORITY! OMG le dense.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Kefka

Originally posted by CrystalTears
What would you have suggested? Tackling him to the ground, causing the probably bomb to go off? Talk to him calmly, even though he RAN away from the marshall after being told to get down?

Seriously.. what would you like for the air marshalls to do while still in a plane?

He was out of the plane and so far, the marshalls are the only ones that mentioned bomb. I'm still waiting for a passenger to mention to confirm before I make a judgement. I don't know about you, but if I can make a bomb, I think I could make a remote for a bomb as well.

This all happened ON THE PLANE. It was about to LEAVE. Where are you people getting that it was off the plane?

From the AP article.

"A passenger who said he had a bomb in a carry-on bag was shot and killed by an air marshal yesterday on a walkway to an American Airlines plane"

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Xyelin
SIMPLE ANSWER. If you don't fucking comply with the orders of an officer in a situation like that.

So no bomb, no mention of bomb. Wife tells you her husband is bi-polar and off his meds. So his big crime is what? waiving his hands in the air and not listening to air marshal? Don't air marshals wear civil clothing?

NOT COMPLYING AND RUNNING AWAY FROM AUTHORITY! OMG le dense.

So the man didn't stop when asked to by a man in plain clothes (it is my understanding marshal's don't wear uniforms) and for this he should be shot? Talk about American Taliban.

[Hulkein]

TIHS JUST IN, SOME GUY ON TEH PLANE SAYS HE HEARD TEH AIR MARSHAL DEMAND A REACH AROUND AND WHEN HE SAID NO HE SHOT HIM!!!

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by CrystalTears
This all happened ON THE PLANE. It was about to LEAVE. Where are you people getting that it was off the plane?

From the AP article.

"A passenger who said he had a bomb in a carry-on bag was shot and killed by an air marshal yesterday on a walkway to an American Airlines plane"

And in the MIAMI HERALD, it says:


Federal air marshals kill a passenger on an Orlando-bound American Airlines jetliner after the man claims he has a bomb in his backpack, authorities say

In pursuit behind him, through the narrow passageway of the Boeing 757: his female companion -- police believe it was his wife -- yelling ''stop, stop'' in English and then in Spanish, ``He's sick, he's sick.''

Alpizar dashed to the front of the plane, knocking down flight attendants and startling passengers ready for takeoff.

How about you let go of AP as the end-all, be-all of news information and use other sources as well.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

''I don't know if they shot an innocent man or not,'' McAlhany said. ``I don't think he was armed or had a bomb. I think he had a mental illness. I don't think they really had to shoot him, but I hope he didn't holler something stupid.''

He obviously heard everything perfectly. :rolleyes:

better than the those on this board. If proximity to the event counts for so much to you should be ecstactic we are quoting witnesses who were so much closer to the event than the Miami Dade Herald.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by CrystalTears
This all happened ON THE PLANE. It was about to LEAVE. Where are you people getting that it was off the plane?

From the AP article.

"A passenger who said he had a bomb in a carry-on bag was shot and killed by an air marshal yesterday on a walkway to an American Airlines plane"

And in the MIAMI HERALD, it says:


Federal air marshals kill a passenger on an Orlando-bound American Airlines jetliner after the man claims he has a bomb in his backpack, authorities say

In pursuit behind him, through the narrow passageway of the Boeing 757: his female companion -- police believe it was his wife -- yelling ''stop, stop'' in English and then in Spanish, ``He's sick, he's sick.''

Alpizar dashed to the front of the plane, knocking down flight attendants and startling passengers ready for takeoff.

How about you let go of AP as the end-all, be-all of news information and use other sources as well.

Your own source doesn't say he was shot on the plane. It looks like he was on the plane and ran off where he was shot.

It looks like the Miami Dade Herald story credited the AP for parts of their story, should we immediately discount the Miami Dade Herald story because it is partly an AP story?

"Herald reporters Cara Buckley, Theresa Bradley, Frank Davies, Rebecca Dellagloria, Tere Figueras Negrete, Steve Harrison, Phil Long, David Ovalle and Jay Weaver and The Associated Press contributed to this report."

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
his wife came forward and let people know at the time he isn't a threat.
I can't speak for you, but if a guy comes running up to me and says "I have a bomb" and some lady comes up and says "he's crazy, he's off his meds", I'm not going to get to the conclusion "well he's certainly no threat".

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
his wife came forward and let people know at the time he isn't a threat.
I can't speak for you, but if a guy comes running up to me and says "I have a bomb" and some lady comes up and says "he's crazy, he's off his meds", I'm not going to get to the conclusion "well he's certainly no threat".

You have missed a few pages of posts. Several articles have quoted witnesses who said the man never said a thing about a bomb.

[SpunGirl]

They said they never HEARD him say he had a bomb. If I sit here and say "Latrinsorm is a kook" ( :heart: ) and he, sitting 10 feet away (not really) doesn't hear me, that doesn't mean I didn't say it.

-K

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
Several articles have quoted witnesses who said the man never said a thing about a bomb.You have missed several classes of logic. The point of a conditional is not that the antecedent is true. The point of a conditional is that IF the antecedent is true, THEN the consequent necessarily follows. Self-definition aside, my point stands. A woman saying "this man is crazy" is not, as you stated, cause for the air marshals to let him go about his business.

And as an aside, I only remember hearing about one witness, a Mr. McAlhany.

And as a second aside, :heart: Spun. :)

[Warriorbird]

There's a planeful. I imagine someone else will come forward.

[Lady Shadow]

All I know is if I was on that flight and the air marshall had NOT shot him, I'd have been really pissed. I've got very young children to look after. Kudos to them.

[Back]

Read another article where a security official said its not a good idea to shoot a man who claims he has a bomb as he could set it off if wounded. Anyone trained in this sort of thing have an opinion on it?

[Terminator X]

So the media was slanted to the right originally, but with these breaking updates of eye-witness accounts, the talked-about media slant has to have swung left by now... :rolleyes:

Interesting/Not very overly surprising developments...

- The Termite

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Backlash
Read another article where a security official said its not a good idea to shoot a man who claims he has a bomb as he could set it off if wounded. Anyone trained in this sort of thing have an opinion on it?


Yeah they are trained to BOOOOOOM HEADSHOT DOUG FPS STYLE... Central nervous system is the surefire stop action procedure.

[Ebondale]

Originally posted by Kefka

Originally posted by Ebondale
Bi-polar is the most over-diagnosed mental illness in the world today.

A good 90% of the people who are diagnosed with Bi-polar are nothing more than attention-whoring drama queens and do not have any chemical imbalance whatsoever. Just like ADD and ADHD were over-diagnosed in the 80's people are now diagnosed with BPD (Bi-polar Disorder) or Autism. Its fucking stupid.

My wife, as I said, has Schizo-affective Disorder. She sees and she hears very very disturbing things all the time and sometimes she blacks out and is completely unaware of her actions. She is between medications right now so it is just as good as if she weren't medicated at all. In the past few days I have witnessed her slash her leg a dozen times with a pair of scissors, bang her head repeatedly into a wall, throw a knife inside the house, scream and cry for twelve hours straight, attack me, and... be perfectly fine.

If you step onto an aircraft in the United States of America with a mental illness then you better be God damn good and ready to control yourself because I wouldn't expect an Air Marshal to understand "Oh, she has a mental illness!" if my wife got onto a plane and wiled out like that.

Because they were only trained to shoot, right?

No. Because they were trained to make the decision to use deadly force or not based upon the situation. The Air Marshal did his job to the letter.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Ebondale

Originally posted by Kefka

Originally posted by Ebondale
Bi-polar is the most over-diagnosed mental illness in the world today.

A good 90% of the people who are diagnosed with Bi-polar are nothing more than attention-whoring drama queens and do not have any chemical imbalance whatsoever. Just like ADD and ADHD were over-diagnosed in the 80's people are now diagnosed with BPD (Bi-polar Disorder) or Autism. Its fucking stupid.

My wife, as I said, has Schizo-affective Disorder. She sees and she hears very very disturbing things all the time and sometimes she blacks out and is completely unaware of her actions. She is between medications right now so it is just as good as if she weren't medicated at all. In the past few days I have witnessed her slash her leg a dozen times with a pair of scissors, bang her head repeatedly into a wall, throw a knife inside the house, scream and cry for twelve hours straight, attack me, and... be perfectly fine.

If you step onto an aircraft in the United States of America with a mental illness then you better be God damn good and ready to control yourself because I wouldn't expect an Air Marshal to understand "Oh, she has a mental illness!" if my wife got onto a plane and wiled out like that.

Because they were only trained to shoot, right?

No. Because they were trained to make the decision to use deadly force or not based upon the situation. The Air Marshal did his job to the letter.

A job well done.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Ebondale

Originally posted by Kefka

Originally posted by Ebondale
Bi-polar is the most over-diagnosed mental illness in the world today.

A good 90% of the people who are diagnosed with Bi-polar are nothing more than attention-whoring drama queens and do not have any chemical imbalance whatsoever. Just like ADD and ADHD were over-diagnosed in the 80's people are now diagnosed with BPD (Bi-polar Disorder) or Autism. Its fucking stupid.

My wife, as I said, has Schizo-affective Disorder. She sees and she hears very very disturbing things all the time and sometimes she blacks out and is completely unaware of her actions. She is between medications right now so it is just as good as if she weren't medicated at all. In the past few days I have witnessed her slash her leg a dozen times with a pair of scissors, bang her head repeatedly into a wall, throw a knife inside the house, scream and cry for twelve hours straight, attack me, and... be perfectly fine.

If you step onto an aircraft in the United States of America with a mental illness then you better be God damn good and ready to control yourself because I wouldn't expect an Air Marshal to understand "Oh, she has a mental illness!" if my wife got onto a plane and wiled out like that.

Because they were only trained to shoot, right?

No. Because they were trained to make the decision to use deadly force or not based upon the situation. The Air Marshal did his job to the letter.

Because terrorists usually yell out they have a bomb. And for good measure, run down the aisle flailing their arms about and run out the plane. :rolleyes:

My hope would be that they were trained to assess the situation before reacting accordingly. Pulling out a gun and shooting sick passengers doesn't sound like good judgement to me. There's more people in this world than terrorists out there. There's alot more solutions out there than shoot to kill.

[Drew2]

Somebody set him up the bomb.

[Tsa`ah]

Interesting that there wasn't a single witness on the plane that heard the the man say "bomb".

Yet the air marshals heard it .... very interesting.

Basically it went down like this. The passenger, a bi-polar manic depressive (for those who aren't manic ... try getting a bi-polar manic to take their meds ... or shut up), went off his meds. The wife wasn't aware of this until it was too late. The man has an episode on a plane and everyone witness to this episode becomes aware (through the wife chasing the guy) that he's sick and needs his medication.

Somewhere between the plane and shooting, the air marshals recieved a vague report of a disturbance and the man causing it. The bi-polar man exits the plane, the air marshals confront him and he's not going along with the air marshals. Judging from the guys name ... he's not exactly an upstanding white guy. He reaches for his bag and instead of being tackled like he should have when he first exited the plane, they open fire.

After the rush dies down and they find there wasn't anything to shoot the guy over ... they cover their asses and claim the guy mentioned that he had a bomb ... though only the air marshals heard it.

Interesting if you ask me.

When a sick man dies because several people were ignorant of fact, a lack of proceedure, and overall stupidity ... it's not a sign that they were doing their jobs, it's a sign that they were poorly trained (from flight staff to anyone outside the plane) and poorly chosen.

This wasn't a matter of keeping you folks safe at all ... so don't even try that.

[Androidpk]

I would have done the same thing in the Marshall's shoes. Good on him for doing his job.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Androidpk
I would have done the same thing in the Marshall's shoes. Good on him for doing his job.

Because their job is to shoot first, ask questions later. :no:

[Warriorbird]

Interesting that there wasn't a single witness on the plane that heard the the man say "bomb"

Yet. Like any deadly use of force, this will surely be investigated thoroughly.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Interesting that there wasn't a single witness on the plane that heard the the man say "bomb".

Yet the air marshals heard it .... very interesting.

Basically it went down like this. The passenger, a bi-polar manic depressive (for those who aren't manic ... try getting a bi-polar manic to take their meds ... or shut up), went off his meds. The wife wasn't aware of this until it was too late. The man has an episode on a plane and everyone witness to this episode becomes aware (through the wife chasing the guy) that he's sick and needs his medication.

Somewhere between the plane and shooting, the air marshals recieved a vague report of a disturbance and the man causing it. The bi-polar man exits the plane, the air marshals confront him and he's not going along with the air marshals. Judging from the guys name ... he's not exactly an upstanding white guy. He reaches for his bag and instead of being tackled like he should have when he first exited the plane, they open fire.

After the rush dies down and they find there wasn't anything to shoot the guy over ... they cover their asses and claim the guy mentioned that he had a bomb ... though only the air marshals heard it.

Interesting if you ask me.

When a sick man dies because several people were ignorant of fact, a lack of proceedure, and overall stupidity ... it's not a sign that they were doing their jobs, it's a sign that they were poorly trained (from flight staff to anyone outside the plane) and poorly chosen.

This wasn't a matter of keeping you folks safe at all ... so don't even try that.

Your whole account is fiction as far as I can tell. Why jump to that conclusion based on zero facts?

I really don't understand why some people are so quick to disbelieve/cry cover-up regarding anything involving an authority figure. Does everyone that works for the govt. become inherently evil because they are working for "the man"?

When you first heard this story, is your first thought "Probably a cover-up where the government guy fucked up and is covering his ass", and if so, how and why do you get to this conclusion?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Kefka

Because terrorists usually yell out they have a bomb. And for good measure, run down the aisle flailing their arms about and run out the plane. :rolleyes:

Not everyone who uses bombs could reasonably be described as a terrorist.
Some people set bombs, but are just plain mad. They also do some very strange things. It would be a shitty job to have to differentiate whether the loony shouting "I have a bomb" is just a loony, or whether the lives of the few hundred people on board the plane really are at risk.

What is sure is that the information that is circulating is just nowhere near the amount of information you would be able to say with any level of certainty that the marshall did his job correctly or he fucked up. While we can probably all say that it is a tragic event, probably best to wait for the enquiries to report back.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Interesting that there wasn't a single witness on the plane that heard the the man say "bomb".

When the bloke was shot by the Police in London after the bombings this summer, an eyewitness swore blind to the media that the man who had been shot was Asian. Clear as the nose on your face, he said. Turned out he was a white man, from Brazil, no less.

Witness Schwitness.

[Back]

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'" (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html)


"I was on the phone with my brother. Somebody came down the aisle and put a shotgun to the back of my head and said put your hands on the seat in front of you. I got my cell phone karate chopped out of my hand. Then I realized it was an official."

In the ensuing events, many of the passengers began crying in fear, he recalls. "They were pointing the guns directly at us instead of pointing them to the ground," he says "One little girl was crying. There was a lady crying all the way to the hotel."


----------------------------------------------------------------

Ok not to belabour the argument, but this is a pretty stunning read. I have to say that when I first heard the story I reacted just like everyone else. You yell you have a bomb on a plane you go down. Don’t expect much else.

But as we see the facts unfold there is more to this story.

[Androidpk]

Air Marshalls receive some of the most vigorous training out of all types of law enforcement. They did exactly what they were taught to do. That is not the type of situation where you want to second guess yourself, which is why it is shoot first, ask questions later. It sucks, but after 9/11 there is no other choice.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Backlash
Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'" (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html)


"I was on the phone with my brother. Somebody came down the aisle and put a shotgun to the back of my head and said put your hands on the seat in front of you. I got my cell phone karate chopped out of my hand. Then I realized it was an official."

In the ensuing events, many of the passengers began crying in fear, he recalls. "They were pointing the guns directly at us instead of pointing them to the ground," he says "One little girl was crying. There was a lady crying all the way to the hotel."


----------------------------------------------------------------

Ok not to belabour the argument, but this is a pretty stunning read. I have to say that when I first heard the story I reacted just like everyone else. You yell you have a bomb on a plane you go down. Don’t expect much else.

But as we see the facts unfold there is more to this story.

Of course they point the guns driectly at them.. what is the point otherwise?

[CrystalTears]

I understand being thorough and finding out all the facts, but I guess I just don't understand why people are also quick to believe that air marshalls were trigger-happy and eager to kill someone without provocation.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I understand being thorough and finding out all the facts, but I guess I just don't understand why people are also quick to believe that air marshalls were trigger-happy and eager to kill someone without provocation.

As oppose to being quick to condemn a man to death for being sick?

[CrystalTears]

Because supposedly the word "bomb" came out of his lips, clutched his backpack, and ran from authorities when he was told to get down. Goddamned suspicious as far as I'm concerned.

When people are told not to speak the word "bomb" in airports, I really don't care if he was sick.

So are air marshalls supposed to be giving psychological tests before interrogating now?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Ebondale
Bi-polar is the most over-diagnosed mental illness in the world today.This is hugely debatable. It's always been my understanding that ADD/ADHD has retained this title and for good reason. While the similarities can be striking when it comes to ADHD and bipolar disorder, the differences are equally noticeable. Bipolar disorder can be difficult to detect which is why I find it hard to believe it is the most over-diagnosed mental illness. Some people go as long as 5 years or more before being correctly diagnosed. The reason for this has to do with the dual nature of the disorder and the fact that when a bipolar is in a state of extreme high, what reason would they need to seek mental health treatment? It's when that high comes crashing down the real and obvious problems began to present themselves.


A good 90% of the people who are diagnosed with Bi-polar are nothing more than attention-whoring drama queens and do not have any chemical imbalance whatsoever.I'm going to assume you said this just for the hell of it and leave it at that.
Just like ADD and ADHD were over-diagnosed in the 80's people are now diagnosed with BPD (Bi-polar Disorder) or Autism. Its fucking stupid.ADD/ADHD are still being over-diagnosed on top of being miss-diagnosed. I say miss-diagnosed because there are times when a person is afflicted with both which can be hard to detect when the illness is masking itself to reflect primarily the most visible. Although bipolar disorder and ADHD usually go hand in hand because of the nature of the disorders, they are very different in how they affect those afflicted mentally and physical.


If you step onto an aircraft in the United States of America with a mental illness then you better be God damn good and ready to control yourself We can hope. Ultimately, I agree that having a mental illness is NO excuse whatsoever to put oneself or others in harms way, but we do know it happens and will probably continue to. This incident will hopefully encourge those with a family member suffering to make sure they are taking their medication regularly, and if not their behavior needs to be seriously monitored.

[Rysk]

Ok heres my take.

1. This whole situation is a Catch-22. If they had NOT shot the man, people would be bitching about lack of security on airplanes. If they had shot him and wounded him, people would say that he could have still set it off. The air marshall's took the action neccessary to elminate a threat to <insert number of people on the plane>.
2. As far as someone saying a head shot will shut down the central nervous system. This is untrue, the bodies first reaction to that trauma is to tense, all muscles will retract, thus snipers are trained for a "hostage shot." Half inch down, half inch back from the base of the ear, this shot severs the brain stem, completely shutting down the central nervous system, and the bodies first reaction is to release everything (a weapon). They are trained to do this so if the suspect has a gun to someones head, they will not pull the trigger when the shot is fired.
3. This is liberal media making a big deal out of this, like they do everything else. But to be honest, there are 4 ways this situation could have turned out, and all 4 ways they would have been all over it, because thats what they do. (Four Ways: 1: No action taken, bomb explodes, kills everyone, government at fault. 2: Shots fired, man wounded, bomb explodes, poor training, government at fault. 3: No shots fired, man is sick, no bomb found. Government at fault because they did not take action. 4: What happened. Its the Governments fault, because they are republican, and republicans like to kill people.)

To the air marshalls: Kudos, you performed your job duties. Let them bitch, beknowing that you did what you felt was neccessary at the time to save the lives of the passengers of that plane.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Because supposedly the word "bomb" came out of his lips, clutched his backpack, and ran from authorities when he was told to get down. Goddamned suspicious as far as I'm concerned.

When people are told not to speak the word "bomb" in airports, I really don't care if he was sick.

So are air marshalls supposed to be giving psychological tests before interrogating now?

From what I read in that Time article, even sneezing might've gotten someone shot up. Until I get the full facts, I'm more towards feeling sympathy for the woman that lost her husband than patting the back of air marshalls who later realized there was no real threat.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets
Your whole account is fiction as far as I can tell. Why jump to that conclusion based on zero facts?

It's a conclusion based on fact Dar. If you listen to reports airing this morning, the passengers and flight crew deny ever hearing the man mention a bomb. Only the air marshals are making those claims ... it's called ass covering. They fucked up and to me it appears they're lying in order to save face.


I really don't understand why some people are so quick to disbelieve/cry cover-up regarding anything involving an authority figure. Does everyone that works for the govt. become inherently evil because they are working for "the man"?

I didn't comment when I first read and heard reports. I waited for the rest of it to come out since media outlets tend to rush stories in order to be the first to air/print it.

I formed no opinion upon hearing the initial breaking stories.


When you first heard this story, is your first thought "Probably a cover-up where the government guy fucked up and is covering his ass", and if so, how and why do you get to this conclusion?

No, I formed that opinion after hearing the passenger and crew accounts and how they drastically conflicted with the reports given by the air marshals.

At this point it is a cover up on the part of the men who essentially murdered a mentally ill man.

[Edited on 12-9-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[Androidpk]

They shot him because he knew the secret of Area 51 and who really killed Kennedy. I bet they weren't even Air Marshalls, but in fact secret CIA agents. :rolleyes:

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Androidpk
They shot him because he knew the secret of Area 51 and who really killed Kennedy. I bet they weren't even Air Marshalls, but in fact secret CIA agents. :rolleyes:

Talk about way out in right field. Is this your way of saying conspiracy theory?

[CrystalTears]

That was total sarcasm, since it's not about facts anymore, but assumptions of what the air marshall intended.

[Tsa`ah]

Too much to quote, but I'll knock it out without using them.

Bi-polar disorder isn't something that is an automatic assumption or diagnosis. In fact, most psychologist and psychiatrists will not make this diagnosis until they have a track record of behavior and responses to medication.

If this man behaved in the manner described, the last thing I'm going to do is doubt the validity of the diagnosis. The fact that he suffered from a bi-polar disorder is irrelevant. He could have had a number of treatable disorders, it does not justify shooting a mentally ill person.

I'll put this out there and take it as you will ... you don't need training in psychology to notice a person suffering from such a mental illness. It's apparent that this type should be on medication. No, it's not as apparent as someone with Down's, it's not apparent as a physical disability ... but it is god damned apparent. Yet ... it's fucking AOK that an air marshal put him down.

Give me a break. This is a case of shitty systems of communication and poorly qualified people acting in an official capacity.

Who cares how people would react had the guy not been shot. HE WAS MOTHER FUCKING SICK IN THE HEAD AND ONLY A THREAT TO HIMSELF. This wasn't a case of us or them.

Do you seriously want to know what the reaction would have been? It would have been "What the fuck was the airline thinking allowing that guy to board? He could have been killed or someone could have been killed because of him." or "What the fuck was his wife thinking ... she should have medicated him or waited for another flight".

Who gives a fuck what the response would have been had the man not been shot? Really? Who?

Who cares what the witnesses say? When all of them say the exact same thing ... YOU SHOULD. Play devil's advocate with politicians screwing their interns, or ripping people off ... don't play that shit when a guy gets shot when he really needed restrained.

When everyone says the same thing, and only the air marshals are claiming a threat ... makes you wonder. If it doesn't ... do everyone else a favor and put a bag over your head ... you're too fucking brain washed or stupid to share the air with the rest of us.

[Sean of the Thread]

You're stupid.

[Androidpk]

Who are you to say that the air marshals were poorly trained? They were taught to do a job, and they did exactly what they were supposed to do.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Androidpk
Who are you to say that the air marshals were poorly trained?


What are you blind ... He is the wannabe know it all.

[Kefka]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051209/ap_on_re_us/airplane_shooting_62;_ylt=AiJE9U6mYBXn_oiG8Vz6m9rb dQQB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday.

Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane's aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner. They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according to authorities.


Ok... Now he made the bomb threat on the jetway where only he and the marshalls were present.. Someone didn't get the memo.

[Sean of the Thread]

Should have complied.

[Warriorbird]

Until more witnesses come forward, people shouldn't be leaping to this guy's defense. So far ONE witness has talked to news media.

People who work security on planes and in airports have to deal with a whole lot of bullshit and a whole lot of messed up situations. Doing vehicle searches I found a bloody katana in a man's trunk. He claimed he used it to "Kill cows." Doing patrol, we came across a man with an AK-47 replica in a case, untagged. When we had him break it down, he claimed he, "Didn't know it was loaded."

Other situations spring to mind. We had a man who refused to stay with his luggage at one point. We had to shut the airport down because we couldn't hold him. He kept muttering shit about police brutality before the police had even gotten there.

In all of those situations above, everyone involved handled things with as much moderation as possible. The customer/passenger was always a complete and utter asshole. The air marshals I spoke with were some of the most honorable people I've ever met. I'm far more likely to believe that the man who was an idiot who said he had a bomb.

Still, situations like this always need to be investigated. Quite frankly, I don't think trying and convicting the air marshals in your minds based on one witness is really all that logical. This was a tragedy, but most likely a tragedy that could've been prevented by not being an idiot. Being bipolar doesn't mean that you're completely irrational. I dated a severely bipolar girl for over a year. I'm pretty sure that she would've been miserable on an airplane, I could suspect her of commiting suicide on an airplane by saying she had a bomb, but she wouldn't have said "I have a bomb" as a lark.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Being bipolar doesn't mean that you're completely irrational. Very true, unless you're off meds. My grandmother was bipolar and I never knew until my mother told me years after she passed. She was the most normal, loving, and caring person during my times with her. Still doesn't mean someone who's bipolar is above following direct orders from government officials with guns. It just doesn't.

[Kefka]

2 passengers

Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb."