Glad to know it's not just here...

[Skirmisher]

that the supreme court of the land can be incredibly stupid.


'Dirty negro' insult not always racist-Italy court

By Gavin Jones -- Reuters -- Tue Dec 6, 8:46 up AM ET

Calling a foreigner a "dirty negro" in Italian is not necessarily a racist insult, Italy's highest court has ruled.

The verdict, relating to a case where a group of Italian men punched and insulted some women from Colombia, caused deep unease at a time when Italy is struggling to contain racism.

The court on Monday ruled in favour of one of the men, who argued he was not being racist when he launched the assault with the words: "Sporche negre -- cosa ci fanno queste negre qua?" ("Dirty negroes -- what are these negroes doing here?" )

Most Italians would have no doubt that calling someone a "dirty negro" was a racist insult. The term is seldom heard and is considered no more acceptable in Italy than it would be in Britain or the United States.

However, an insult should be judged racist "only if it is motivated by real hatred", or is likely to cause racial hatred in others or lead to "discriminatory behaviour for reasons of race, ethnicity, nationality or religion", the court ruled.

On the other hand, the crime of racism is not constituted by expressions of "generic dislike, intolerance or rejection based on race, ethnicity or religion", which appeared to fit the case in question, the court said.

Politicians across the political spectrum criticised the ruling and said it could not have come at a worse time.

I would love to know a time that calling someone a dirty negro is not considered racist. Astounding. Perhaps not quite as bad as the New London case up here dealing with Eminent Domain, but it's certainly in the ballpark.

Click here for the rest of the article <---------- (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051206/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_life_italy_racism;_ylt=Al_uyu02hCa6cLy.FP L7Hs7tiBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--)

[Edited on 12-7-2005 by Skirmisher]

What is the "PC" term for black in Italian? I know it's Neigre or something very similiar in Russian.. It's the only word for black person.

- Arkans

[Asha]

<< I would love to know a time that calling someone a dirty negro is not considered racist. >>

According to what I saw on Jeremy Kyle this morning, the answer is when a black person says it to another black person.

[Terminator X]

What about clean N------ ??

Holy fucking semantics :thinking:

[Artha]

We're missing the really important thing here...there's a law against racism. Free speech ftl.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Artha
We're missing the really important thing here...there's a law against racism. Free speech ftl.

You've had to deal with racism aimed at you alot I take it.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Artha
We're missing the really important thing here...there's a law against racism. Free speech ftl.

You've had to deal with racism aimed at you alot I take it.

He probably hasn't.
But he's probably had a few jabs at him for being near bald!!!1111

Yeah, I went there. <3

[Edited on 12-7-2005 by Chadj]

[Goldenranger]

A truly abhorrent phrase indeed, but I have to agree with Artha and say the most important issue here is free speech. I'm so very glad we have a greater freedom for speech as opposed to most European countries (many due to their former Nazi rule or occupation).

I think hate speech laws are harmful, avid believer in the marketplace of ideas.
I don't want it to be a criminal act for someone to say that to a black man or woman just like I don't want it to be criminal for someone to call me a faggot when they find out I'm gay.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Goldenranger
A truly abhorrent phrase indeed, but I have to agree with Artha and say the most important issue here is free speech. I'm so very glad we have a greater freedom for speech as opposed to most European countries (many due to their former Nazi rule or occupation).

I disagreed with this in another thread just recently, but again, IF the U.S. had had to deal with the massive loss of life, economic loss and the nearly complete devastation of infrastructure as did some of the countries in Europe our own laws might well be quite different.


I think hate speech laws are harmful, avid believer in the marketplace of ideas.
I don't want it to be a criminal act for someone to say that to a black man or woman just like I don't want it to be criminal for someone to call me a faggot when they find out I'm gay.

I'll have to also disagree on this point as I think it is an oversimplification of the possible situations.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jesus
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you ... For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?To apply freedom of speech only to speech that we find pleasing is to make a mockery of the term.

To say that "dirty negro" isn't a racist remark sounds pretty stupid, but the Italians are working from a different definition than us. Therefore, one can only logically take issue with the legislators who created the law in the first place. I'm not hugely familiar with the Italian government, but I would hope the courts aren't allowed to just make up laws as they see fit.

[Tsa`ah]

Freedom of speech does not translate into freedom to harm.

[Warriorbird]

punched and insulted some women from Colombia

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
To apply freedom of speech only to speech that we find pleasing is to make a mockery of the term.

To say that "dirty negro" isn't a racist remark sounds pretty stupid, but the Italians are working from a different definition than us. Therefore, one can only logically take issue with the legislators who created the law in the first place. I'm not hugely familiar with the Italian government, but I would hope the courts aren't allowed to just make up laws as they see fit.

If all those "gentlemen" did was to utter some words at the women, I do not think this would be quite the issue it is.

The men instead did physically assault them and also yelled the racial insults at the same time.

The problem is that some words are intended to belittle and dehumanize and therefore make those they are directed at seem less.

Once you have a group who have been convinced that another group is somehow less than them, how much easier is it to push them to take that next step of violence?

[Edited on 12-7-2005 by Skirmisher]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I would love to know a time that calling someone a dirty negro is not considered racist. Apparently when punches aren't attached to the offensive words. It's obvious that certain miscreants of society can't handle freedom of speech without the need to resort to violence.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
If all those "gentlemen" did was to utter some words at the women, I do not think this would be quite the issue it is.Right but this is all you had in your first post:
I would love to know a time that calling someone a dirty negro is not considered racist.and thus that's all I was discussing.
Once you have a group who have been convinced that another group is somehow less than them, how much easier is it to push them to take that next step of violence?It depends entirely on the individual's choice, and any individual who claims that racism or any other sort of discriminatory mindset pushed them into violence is copping out.

For instance. I think willful racists are scummy individuals. That doesn't mean I've got a Saturday night special in my pocket on the off chance I run into one.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm


Once you have a group who have been convinced that another group is somehow less than them, how much easier is it to push them to take that next step of violence?
It depends entirely on the individual's choice, and any individual who claims that racism or any other sort of discriminatory mindset pushed them into violence is copping out.

For instance. I think willful racists are scummy individuals. That doesn't mean I've got a Saturday night special in my pocket on the off chance I run into one.

I know you are intelligent enough to understand there is a large difference in the distaste you may feel toward those with racist views and the way those with racist views see those they look down upon.

[Goldenranger]

And they have a clear right to say certain things, once those words have turned into physical actions against those people they have crossed that line. There is a VERY bright line between speech and action. The difference for me is based upon physical harm vs. mental/emotional harm. For the speech act alone I believe that social stigma, shame, more speech against the speech(in the form of condemnations etc.) are what the government and other people, in all its/their power, should have right to do. Once it has been escalated by one party or the other, then and only then does the criminal aspect come into play with the much harsher penalties, deprivation of life, liberty, and property, come into play.

Depriving someone of their liberty for the words they say, no matter how abhorrent is just incredibly wrong and abusive in my opinion.

[Caiylania]

:( I will talk to some of my Italian friends about this. Curious on how they view it.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Freedom of speech does not translate into freedom to harm.

True but if someone called me a filthy Muslim is that a criminal act? Sure I am pissed off and if I punch him in the yap, I would hope the Judge would take into account that I was provoked but I don't think I want any speech to be considered criminal.

In Canada we have hate crime laws which allow greater penalty to anyone who attacks someone because they are gay/Muslim/Jew etc. Personally I was against the law; I think that increasing the penalties for all violent crime would be a better solution.

Also speech now comes under hate crime in Canada, so parts of the Torah and the complete Bible could be affected by this law, as could quoting them.

What was baffling to me was how the Judges didn't think calling someone "filthy negro" was racist. It is one thing to say racist speech is allowed under free speech, it is another to not see how such speech is racist.