Death Penalty for Drug Smuggling

[Back]

Asia's 'grim view on drug crime' (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/01/execution/index.html)


HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- At dawn on Friday, a hangman at Changi Prison in Singapore placed a hood over the head of drug trafficker Van Nguyen, put a noose around his neck and opened a trap door in a "long-drop" procedure that killed the Australian citizen.

The death sentence for the 25-year former salesman was handed down after he was arrested at Changi airport while transiting from Cambodia to the Australian city of Melbourne in 2002, carrying nearly 400 grams (14 ounces) of heroin.

Dayumn. The dude was just stopping over. They caught him. Stopped the drugs from going wherever they were going. Its just insane he got the death penalty.

[Skirmisher]

He was too stupid to live.

[HarmNone]

That's the way Singapore works. If you've got any sense at all, you won't be carrying drugs through Singapore.

[Skirmisher]

Exactly HN.

And we kill plenty of people ourselves.

Only China, Iran and Vietnam held more executions in 2004 than the US, according to rights group Amnesty International.
BBC News - US support for death penalty wanes - link for above quote (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4491106.stm)

We kill for one thing they for another.

People need to think when they travel.

[Drew2]

It's not insane at all.

He had absolutely no excuse for having that much heroin. There was no question of his guilt.

Death to drug sellers/users.

[Edited on 12-2-2005 by Tayre]

[Jorddyn]

Carrying drugs in Singapore is stupid.

Killing people for carrying drugs is stupid.

Dumbass awards all around.

Jorddyn

[DeV]

It's Singapore. Is anybody surprised...

[Warriorbird]

The Republicans love Singapore.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by DeV
It's Singapore. Is anybody surprised...

If anyone is, he or she is stupid.

Jorddyn, having a day

[Back]

You can get caned for throwing your chewing gum on the sidewalk. Its seems harsh to me because while heroin can and does kill often, its the users fault and this guy never got to sell it anyway.

[Viridian]

Eh, I think it's a good sentance. Drugs kill thousands of people a year, the people who are transporting them are supporting death.


To Singapore I say, good job.

[ElanthianSiren]

You then get into a debate about which drugs are legal in a country and why. I agree with the sentence in this case, however.

-M

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Viridian
To Singapore I say, good job.
:yeahthat: I have no pity for someone carrying that much heroin.

[Fallen]

Roughly how many "doses" of heroin was the man carrying? How much does it take to get high?

[Edited on 12-2-2005 by Fallen]

[Snapp]

I don't know how much it takes to get high, but after a couple random google searches I found that it sells for around $4,000 to $7,000 per ounce. So he had a pretty good amount on him.

[Edited on 12-2-2005 by Snapp]

[Makkah]

<<He had absolutely no excuse for having that much heroin. There was no question of his guilt. >>

That sentence makes no sense via your own logic. There's no excuse for anyone having ANY heroin.

I've never done heroin, but I'd say 1-2 grams would fuck you up. That's 200-400 doses depending on tolerance. That's a bunch of wasted spoons.

[Neildo]

People gotta realize that when you're in another country, you gotta live by their rules. Too many think that wherever they go, they're safe and their own rules follow em around. Nuh uh.

- N

[Killer Kitten]

Probably some poor schmuck who got talked into playing mule and was caught and killed his first time out.

Now he'll never live to outgrow this phase of his life and perhaps contribute a great deal of good to the world.

Sometimes people do absolutely stupid shit for reasons they themselves don't even know. Dying for a mistake seems harsh.

[Latrinsorm]

Nearly a pound of heroin is hardly a "mistake". The death penalty is always wrong, but let's be reasonable here. It's not like someone was like "Dude pick me up one of those cool canes while you're there and oh hey take this $100,000 worth of heroin over for me too? Thanks!"

[Asha]

Kinda puts you off taking drugs anywhere near Singapore though.
That's a pretty good way of warning people off.
:O

[Bobmuhthol]

Heroin sells for $4 a bag, you generally by 10 bags at a time.

Anyway, I don't understand the people who say, "Hooray for killing this man." There's absolutely no way you would say the same thing if it happened in the United States.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<a couple random google searches I found that it sells for around $4,000 to $7,000 per ounce.>>

??? What searches are you doing? A bag of heroin contains about 3.5 grams (1/8 ounce). One ounce is about $32. His 14 would cost about $450 on the street.

[Shari]

Yeah, Singapore is harsh. I've heard about the gum laws there too. My dad goes over there a lot. Very clean city, but you fuck up and BAM.

Anyway, as much as I loathe drugs, suprisingly I don't think he should be killed for it. I'm much for the eye-for-an-eye thing in most cases....except sexual assault on minors. Anyone who does that should be castrated by fire and left to bleed out...and the females, their hooha sewn shut. But that's another store all together.

[Viridian]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Heroin sells for $4 a bag, you generally by 10 bags at a time.

Anyway, I don't understand the people who say, "Hooray for killing this man." There's absolutely no way you would say the same thing if it happened in the United States.

I would be, in fact I think it's a great sentance. These sellers, dealers, people who traffic, ect. help kill people. It is a serious thing, it should be a harsh penalty.

I've lost people I loved and cared about to drugs. So screw bastards who sell and traffic, Singapore has the right idea.

[Edited on 12-3-2005 by Viridian]

[Marl]

<<??? What searches are you doing? A bag of heroin contains about 3.5 grams (1/8 ounce). One ounce is about $32. His 14 would cost about $450 on the street. >>

$32 bucks for an ounce of heroin????? you must be smoking crack to think that. the cheapest drug around (pot) cost anywhere from 75$ on up in the hundereds per ounce depending on quality. I would bet his search his pretty close to actual price.

From an Austrailian paper

<<Police seized $1.2 million of heroin and charged three people after a raid in Melbourne last night.

Police from the Major Drug Investigation Division said they found a large quantity of cash and about 700 grams of white powder, believed to be heroin, in the raid in Tennyson St, St Kilda.>>

700 grams = 1.2million
$1714 per gram
400 grams = $685,600
rough figures

of course the 700 grams I am guessiong is pure uncut heroin whereas your normal street heroin is probably cut 3 or 4 to 1. either way dude had much more than personal use and deserved what he got.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
...
Anyway, I don't understand the people who say, "Hooray for killing this man." There's absolutely no way you would say the same thing if it happened in the United States.

If you get maimed walking on lava pouring out of an active volcano you can't whine and say "But I walked on that solid earth over there and I was fine! Wah wah wah..."

The two are different just like the laws of different countries are different and require different behavior accordingly.

[Edited on 12-3-2005 by Skirmisher]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<The two are different just like the laws of different countries are different and require different behavior accordingly.>>

Where did I insinuate that Singapore had to have the same laws as the United States?

As the posters that are happy that a man was killed are from the United States, it doesn't make sense that they're so ecstatic when their country outlaws such practices.

[Marl]

<<As the posters that are happy that a man was killed are from the United States, it doesn't make sense that they're so ecstatic when their country outlaws such practices.>>

You make a good point, not many people would be happy if we starting cutting the hands off of everyone who shoplifted or was caught stealing like some countries do. How many protests would be made when little Johnny winds up on the front page of the paper minus a hand after swiping that pack of gum from the 7-11?

[Some Rogue]

According to UPI, 396 grams = 26,000 doses.

Link to UPI (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20051104-050146-7013r)

[Bobmuhthol]

<<$32 bucks for an ounce of heroin????? you must be smoking crack to think that. the cheapest drug around (pot) cost anywhere from 75$ on up in the hundereds per ounce depending on quality. I would bet his search his pretty close to actual price.>>

$4 is very, very cut heroin, but that's what you find littering the streets.

Better quality (but not nearly best) goes for about $16 for 1/8 ounce. That'd be $128/ounce, $1800 for 14.

[Back]

Also consider that alcohol kills a large number of people every year but its legal.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Also consider that alcohol kills a large number of people every year but its legal.>>

Alcohol and tobacco kill more yearly than every drug combined. For every person that dies from either heroin, cocaine, or aspirin, 75 people die from tobacco.

[Edited on 12-3-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Artha]

Not that I like Tobacco or anything (in fact, I'd be pretty happy if it was outlawed tomorrow), but you have to consider usage. Tobacco's legal and many many more people use it daily than cocaine, heroin and probably even aspirin. Percent of users who die would be a far more reliable statistic.

[Bobmuhthol]

"Although it is difficult to obtain an exact number of heroin users because of the transient nature of this population, several surveys have attempted to provide estimates. A rough estimate of the hardcore addict population in the United States places the number between 750,000 and 1,000,000 users."

"There are approximately 180 million Americans over the age of 18. Assuming that the average smoker smokes a pack a day (20 cigarettes), we can calculate annual per capita cigarette consumption by taking 26% of 180 million to get the number of smokers (which equals 51 million), "

Tobacco causes about 435,000 deaths yearly. Cocaine is about 2,200, heroin 2,000, and aspirin 2,000.

Quick division says, yearly, 1 in 118 tobacco users are killed from it, at least 1 in 500 heroin users are killed from it.

[Edited on 12-3-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol

As the posters that are happy that a man was killed are from the United States, it doesn't make sense that they're so ecstatic when their country outlaws such practices.

Many countries have outlawed capitol punishment completely and view us similarly.

My point is that they DO have the death penalty for such an offense. If you plan to go break the laws of a foriegn country one would do well to find out what the punishment would be if caught.

When we go to Peru we always warn quite strongly to everyone that we don't care what they do while home in the US, but while in Peru do NOT mess with any illegal substances as Jails and legals systems outside the US are not quite the same central air, heat and cable tv having places as here.

This guy was stupid in knowingly breaking the law, and a drug law in particular.

I have zero sympathy for him, for his family yes, but none for him.

[Apotheosis]

When it comes to addiction, personal responsibility is probably something that has to be set aside when looking at the issue.

The point I am making here is that people who are addicted to substances are different than people who aren't. Addiction is a disability, and one that is difficult to overcome.

Therefore, the people who use the drugs are not at equal fault as the people who push them. Therefore, I believe that this society should put stronger penalties on pushers vs. addicts. The current system allows those with money (earned by dealing drugs) to often get off due to being able to afford lawyers, etc.

People will often argue that drugs don't really do anything bad (occasional marijuana use, etc.). From my experience, even marijuana use does lead to general decline in the standard of living for the communities that involve themselves in it. In addition, people connected to these users suffer financially, emotionally, etc. causing an even greater ripple effect into the extended communities.

This is what people fail to consider when looking at drug use. They claim it's a victimless crime in many circumstances, or that "it isn't really that big a deal", but believe you me, even chronic marijuana use leads to fucked up lives down the line.
The ripple effects on the communities are fragmented families, higher medical expenses, higher crime rates, and desnsitization towards behavior such as this, which in turn leads to further (negative) behaviors.

I'm not trying to say that marijuana causes people to kill other people, but what I am trying say is that this is just one piece of the puzzle as to how drug use negatively impacts societies.

So:

1. Stronger, enforceable penalties towards dealers.

2. More emphasis on real rehabilitation programs based on cognitive reconstuctive behavior, job training, and replacement therapies (not methadone).

3. Economic systems which reward people for participating, even at menial levels.

4. Economic systems which reward people for collaborative participation vs. competition. (although competition to some degree is needed) I mostly see that on a local level.

5. Moral based education. I am not talking about spirituality. I mean, morals based on some code of ethics/living that has proven to be constructive to a society.

Everything in this society is ass backwards. Those who are rewarded shouldn't be, and those who are oppressed should get off their asses and proclaim "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"

:blah:

:D

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Alcohol and tobacco kill more yearly than every drug combined. For every person that dies from either heroin, cocaine, or aspirin, 75 people die from tobacco.The difference being it's really hard to kill yourself just with drinking, whereas tobacco cigarettes are basically highly compressed, addictive, carcinogenic poison and heroin is f-ing heroin. I'm not saying alcohol is liquified ambrosia or anything, but it's just not in the same category.
Originally posted by Yswithe
Those who are rewarded shouldn't beThere are people who should not be rewarded that get rewarded anyway. That being said, you'd have to be the reincarnation of every fire'n'brimstone minister ever to say that every single person that is ever rewarded doesn't deserve it.

[Warriorbird]

From my experience, even marijuana use does lead to general decline in the standard of living for the communities that involve themselves in it.

Yeah. Those people in Amsterdam really have it bad.

[Kainen]

Originally posted by Yswithe
When it comes to addiction, personal responsibility is probably something that has to be set aside when looking at the issue.

WRONG. If you never started doing the drug, you would have never gotten addicted. You know that addiction is a possibility when you do drugs.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Kainen
You know that addiction is a possibility when you do drugs. That's not necessarily true, as not all drugs are physically addictive.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

From my experience, even marijuana use does lead to general decline in the standard of living for the communities that involve themselves in it.

Yeah. Those people in Amsterdam really have it bad.

Or Canada -- or the people with chronic medical conditions that use marijuana for its vessel dialation properties. Yeah, damn them for not spending tens of thousands a year on unnatural prescriptions that cause a host of insane side-effects.

Marijuana was a bad example to use there. A better recreational drug to target would have been LSD, which has no beneficial medicinal properties. How did we get from a heroin discussion to marijuana drug law reform?

-M

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
that cause a host of insane side-effects.I'm not terribly familiar with medicinal marijuana, but doesn't it still have marijuana's other effects?

[Apotheosis]

I'm not saying that medicinal uses should be neglected.

Take a look at the suicide rate in the netherlands. Something must be wrong with the culture (or right, depending on how you look at it) to have that sort of situation exist.

There are many causes to societal problems. I'm just saying that drug use is a cause and symptom.

Finally, addicts sometimes become addicts because they were forced to be (ie, babies being born with drug dependencies). I believe that addicts choose to be addicts, to some degree, but I also believe there are biological conditions which they have no control over which ca

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
that cause a host of insane side-effects.I'm not terribly familiar with medicinal marijuana, but doesn't it still have marijuana's other effects?

Marijuana is a vessel dilator (vasodilator). This class of drugs treats high blood pressure (hypertension), glaucoma, edema etc by widening the arteries, allowing blood to flow through more easily, thus reducing blood pressure and the damage of vessel constriction. Per prescriptions: Dilatrate-SR, Iso-Bid, Isonate, Isorbid, Isordil, Isotrate, Sorbitrate (isosorbide dinitrate*), IMDUR (isorbide mononitrate), Apresoline (hydralazine*)

Listed side effects:
dizziness (obviously don't drive)
Headache
Rapid, irregular or pounding heartbeat (palipitations)
numbness or tingling of the fingers or toes
loss of appetite
diarrhea.
Upset stomach
flushing of face or neck
Fever
joint or chest pain
sore throat
skin rash (especially on the face)
unusual bleeding or bruising
weight gain
swelling of the ankles (worsening edema)
confusion
fainting


-M

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Yswithe
I'm not saying that medicinal uses should be neglected.

There are many causes to societal problems. I'm just saying that drug use is a cause and symptom.

Finally, addicts sometimes become addicts because they were forced to be (ie, babies being born with drug dependencies). I believe that addicts choose to be addicts, to some degree, but I also believe there are biological conditions which they have no control over

I absolutely agree with you Georgi. Drug use is a cause and symptom, but the "stepping stone" theory of marijuana is without real merit, and the real people marijuana laws hurt are those that could benefit from the substance.

Heroin, cocaine, crack, LSD, mushrooms, E, almost anything else, I'd be right on your page. You simply chose the one example where I would be forced to disagree with you :P . I agree with you on some addicts being born addicts as well, but I've never heard of babies being born addicted to marijuana. In fact, I've never heard of any physical addiction associated with marijuana. If you're referring to heroin, crack, cocaine, meth etc again we are on the same page.

-M

[Viridian]

Originally posted by Backlash
Also consider that alcohol kills a large number of people every year but its legal.

yeah, but I don't drink anymore. It's stupid, I don't smoke either. Shit like this is stupid. You learn that when you see people die of drug addiction, lung cancer, and the function of your liver do to alcohlism.

I just recently gave alcohol up for good. I don't plan on touching the stuff again.

alcohol isn't as bad as drugs. Drugs like heroin are far worse than alcohol could ever be.

[Edited on 12-3-2005 by Viridian]

[Atlanteax]

The US Justice System probably could use more of the quick execution-style resolutions for more crimes in the US.

Just imagine how much the load on the Jail system would be eased, and that instead of keeping people locked up for life, the jails are only filled with those serving 20 years terms or less.

[Skirmisher]

Well now, with the ever growing number of convictions being reversed due to DNA testing that may be a bit premature on the whole quick execution thing there.

[Warriorbird]

Nobody's ever innocent in Atlanteax-world. It's like Bizzarro-World but more violent.

[ElanthianSiren]

At the very least, it would not be possible without a large overhaul of the current system. Some points to consider:

min/max laws with regard to grandfathered prisoners.
level of burden of proof
prosecutorial manipulation of evidence and misconduct
punishment for manipulation of said evidence (ie your lying sentenced a man to die that was innocent, what then happens to you as a prosecutor?)
profiling
RICO act
warrant or no warrant

One of the good things about our justice system is that the appeals system allows convicted individuals to appeal their status if they are actually innocent. It's also one of the pitfalls in certain instances, so you would have to ask yourself how much an innocent life is worth to you.

-M
edit: forgetting the word 'of' in a phrase -- priceless

[Edited on Sat, December rd, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Warriorbird]

alcohol isn't as bad as drugs. Drugs like heroin are far worse than alcohol could ever be.

The funny thing is... heroin's a really fucked up drug...but I bet alcohol does more damage. Alcoholics generally live longer.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Yswithe
Take a look at the suicide rate in the netherlands.It's lower than ours? :?:

http://www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm

Dated link, and I have no idea where they got their data, so if you've got something else let 'er rip.
Originally posted by Warriorbird
The funny thing is... heroin's a really fucked up drug...but I bet alcohol does more damage. Alcoholics generally live longer.When you say "more damage", do you mean just raw numbers or that pound for pound, alcohol is more dangerous than heroin?
Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Marijuana is a vessel dilatorI just meant, you know, the reefer madness stuff. :hippie: