Katana's...worth it?

[nocturnix]

Thinkin about spending ~1.3mil on a vultite katana...

Never used one so I was curious on your opinions.

Seems they are faster than my twohanded sword. I wonder if My RT will be 1 second with one?

[Things2Come]

I hope you have Edged Weapon training and Two-Handed Weapon training.

If you don't, it won't work.

[Morlian]

Only need THW skill to swing it two-handed. Not sure about one-handed, but I think all you need is OHE skill. Depends on how you grip it. My warrior swings one two-handed with just THW skill and it's pretty nice.

[El Burro]

I think that's only true if you want to use it one handed AND two handed.

[Latrinsorm]

Twohanded requires only THW.
Onehanded requires both.

Frikkin' wizards. :no:

[nocturnix]

K so I'm THW trained...

Are they good?

Would anyone be willing to post their katana in action? :)

...bored here at work!

[Chaddy]

Am I to assume if I'm using the katana as a one hander I'm able to hold a shield as well?

[Bobmuhthol]

I think you get a small penalty if you do, but yes, you can use a shield with any one handed weapon.

[Chaddy]

Thanks for the fast reply.

[Morlian]

Here's a couple of logs I just went and got to post.

at
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a vultite katana at a large ogre!
AS: +204 vs DS: +76 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +57 = +224
... and hit for 121 points of damage!
Amazing slash to the large ogre's belly!
Nothing quite like that empty feeling inside.
The large ogre is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>at
You swing a vultite katana at a large ogre!
AS: +204 vs DS: +50 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +96 = +289
... and hit for 154 points of damage!
Hard slash to the large ogre's side opens its spleen!
The large ogre falls to the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.


Next shot, open ambush -

>amb og
You swing a vultite katana at a large ogre!
AS: +204 vs DS: +71 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +87 = +259
... and hit for 116 points of damage!
Strong slash to the large ogre's right leg!
Muscles exposed!
Not a pretty sight.
The large ogre is knocked to the ground!
The large ogre is stunned!
Roundtime: 6 sec.


I'm singled in ambushing, and doubled in THW, using cman surge. But that's about what I usually get when I hunt.

Hope it helps.

[Bobmuhthol]

I don't have any hits to paste atm, but I use a katana pretty much exclusively when I hunt roa'ters. Open ambush to the head makes them die quickly and violently.

[Chaddy]

Is there any difference in damage as far as ohe and thw are concerned?

[Chaddy]

For the katanas that is.

[Bobmuhthol]

Onehanded katanas do less damage than twohanded katanas. I forget how much, but it's noticeable as far as the DF goes. A twohanded katana, for its speed, does considerable damage. The same applies to a onehanded katana. The damage it does is relative to the other weapons of the class -- they're equally efficient compared to twohanded when twohanded and onehanded when onehanded.

[Latrinsorm]

Katana 2h: .575 .425 .400 .325 .210
As compared to Bastardsword 2h: .550 .400 .375 .300 .225

Katana 1h: .450 .325 .275 .225 .175
Compared to falchion: .450 .325 .250 .250 .175
And bastardsword 1h (1 second slower): .450 .325 .275 .250 .185

[mgoddess]

OHE Katana DF .450/.325/.275/.225/.175
THW Katana DF .575/.425/.425/.325/.210
(Armor groups: Robes/Leather/Scale/Chain/Plate)

One second difference in RT (OHE 5 second vs THW 6 second RT)

OHE-wielded Katana's have a slightly smaller AvD across the board compared to a THW-wielded katana.

(Edit: Oh feh...I take a minute or two longer on my post and I go repeating what someone else said already. *stare*)

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by mgoddess]

[Bobmuhthol]

+ they're heavily crit weighted, offsetting the lower DFs they have against bastard swords/falchions indefinitely.

[Latrinsorm]

+ heavy crit weighting is practically worthless
+ I can get a 4x flaring falchion superior to a 4x katana in every way for about 1/3 the price

[Bobmuhthol]

<<+ I can get a 4x flaring falchion superior to a 4x katana in every way for about 1/3 the price>>

You should be able to do it for 1/10 the price.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
+ heavy crit weighting is practically worthless


How so?

Can you explain that to me? Is it's crit weighting less efective than heavy weighting on other weapons?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Is it's crit weighting less efective than heavy weighting on other weapons?>>

That's impossible since weighting is independent of the weapon it's on. Latrinsorm apparently thinks that heavy crit weighting in general is worthless.

In all honesty, he may be right. Crit weighting is not what it used to be now that randomization exists. Enchants are more efficient in most cases.

[Skirmisher]

Hrm...interesting.

Thanks Bob.

[Drew]

Crit-weighting still gets added on after armour calculations, it definately gets more powerful the heavier the armour class. Anyway, for a haste wizard I think a vultite katana would be a very good choice.


Given the choice I would almost always take crit weighting for my character over common flares.

[nocturnix]

bought one...

the one I saw for sale for 1.35M got sold before I got home from work so had to pay 1.5M


This will be a fun weapon to alter too... and what a great base weapon to build on, I'm guessing these arent wizard enchantable? But possibly merchant enchantable.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Drew
Crit-weighting still gets added on after armour calculations, it definately gets more powerful the heavier the armour class.This doesn't make any sense. If it adds phantom damage, then it gets weaker the heavier the AG. If it adds straight ranks, then it stays as strong. There's no way for it to get stronger unless it gets multiplied by the crit divisor, which just doesn't make any sense at all. Do you have any shots that show it getting stronger?

To be fair, heavy crit weighting isn't COMPLETELY worthless. I would definitely pay 10k extra to have it on a weapon.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Given the choice I would almost always take crit weighting for my character over common flares.>>

Flaring weapons blow, so I'm glad you aren't retarded.

<<Crit-weighting still gets added on after armour calculations, it definately gets more powerful the heavier the armour class.>>

It definitely stays the same.

<<If it adds phantom damage, then it gets weaker the heavier the AG. If it adds straight ranks, then it stays as strong. There's no way for it to get stronger unless it gets multiplied by the crit divisor, which just doesn't make any sense at all.>>

I think I understand what he's trying to say. If you have, say, +12 crit weighting, it adds +6 damage and then the crit rank is calculated. On skin, that 6 damage doesn't make much difference because your DF is very large, so it takes maybe 15 end roll points. On plate, 6 damage takes more like 30+. There's a more noticeable change when you apply crit weighting to plate than to skin, though the weighting never gets stronger.

[Latrinsorm]

I see what you're saying about endroll, but crit divisors go up as AG goes up. 6 points of damage would be above 1 rank (added to max) versus skin and just above half a rank versus plate.

[Bobmuhthol]

Very true. I'm beginning to see his point less and less.

[Drew]

Ok Bob got it right. 6 points of phantom damage, depending on the weapon can be a lot of endroll you are making up for. If you were using a dagger against plate (ridiculous example I know) that would be like adding an extra 150 on to your endroll. But on something more reasonable like a falchion you're talking about an extra 36 endroll needed to get the same result. So, against plate it's like using a 7x weapon instead of a 0x weapon.


Keep in mind, this is from my perspective of playing ambushing characters. Sometimes that extra half a rank against plate (or whole rank against leather) might make the difference between killing something or getting killed. My main ranger can't generate anywhere near the AS of other swinging classes so even getting a hit isn't guaranteed, much less high endrolls. Open swinging, I have less experience with. Also I tend to use weapons with more than heavy weighting anyway.

[Edited on 12-2-2005 by Drew]

[Latrinsorm]

But by that same token and knowing flares are rarely affected by Armor Group, flares would still be far superior to weighting. Doing a rank 5 leg crit versus plate would take about a bajillion endroll with a dagger, but flares can do it no problem.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
But by that same token and knowing flares are rarely affected by Armor Group, flares would still be far superior to weighting. Doing a rank 5 leg crit versus plate would take about a bajillion endroll with a dagger, but flares can do it no problem.



If flares "saved up" I'd be with you, but keep in mind that my hunting style is 1 hit = 1 kill. If my characters messes up the chances are I will not see the flare. I could go 50 swings without seeing a flare, whereas crit weighting affects every hit.

[Drew]

Just to clarify what I was saying, let's assume that flares have a 1/7 frequency.

Let's say he's aiming for the head with a crush only weapon, and that generally if he gets a hit to the head the monster will die. He's hits the head 78% of the time with a maul so let's call it 80% for ease.

So he has a 1/5 chance of missing, which then has a 1/7 chance of flaring. So that gives me a 2.8% chance of seeing a flare on any given swing. In my estimation, not worth it.

[Latrinsorm]

For ambushers, flares are certainly less useful, but so is crit weighting. With the DS pushdown, ambush weighting, and natural weighting, crit weighting is pretty unnecessary assuming one is using a real weapon. And for an alternate take on the occurence of flares, if you needed to kill 9 creatures to fry, you'd have a 64% chance of not seeing a single flare on a hunt (incidentally, my research suggests a 1 in 5 rate for decent flares as opposed to 1 in 7).

[Janarth]

You guys are using flaring weapons in the wrong way. Yes, I'd rather have a crit weighted waraxe than a flaring one...but if I'm twcing, and mstriking for 4 hits in 6 seconds, I'd rather have a flaring falchion and short sword, no?

[Latrinsorm]

As an aside, would you happen to have 53-67 combined Agi/Dex bonuses?

[Drew]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
As an aside, would you happen to have 53-67 combined Agi/Dex bonuses?



Who?

[Latrinsorm]

Janarth. I'm reasonably sure I found an mstrike RT formula, and if I'm right that's where he'd be, assuming his short sword isn't causing heavy weapon penalties in TWC.

[FinisWolf]

Personally, I like damage weighting on my ambushing rogue, it usually takes him well over what he needs to remove the head, or push that eye through the back of the head.

I have also used crit weighting, and I have also noticed it has its advantages as well, just (to me) not as often (seemingly) as damage weighting.

:shrug:

Finis

[Drew]

Damage weighting can't help you remove a head or push an eye as it only adds damage and does nothing for the crit ranking. Personally I use a beyond incredibly weighted sword and can't think of another weapon I'd trade it for.

[StrayRogue]

Damage weighting is only really good in PvP (and then so is crit weighting), and perhaps the best damage weighted stuff is the uber +40 damage gear. And even then it's random. To me, similar to damage padding, it's vastly inferior to crit weighting.

[Stunseed]

< Personally I use a beyond incredibly weighted sword and can't think of another weapon I'd trade it for. >

Showoff.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Stunseed
< Personally I use a beyond incredibly weighted sword and can't think of another weapon I'd trade it for. >

Showoff.


Mwahahahahaha!

[Janarth]

Sorry, not a mstriker, just saying for arguments sake, I thought those quick swinging guys liked the flares. IE, TWC bards love their sonics and an offhand flarer.