Tennessee high school newspaper seized

[Gan]

OAK RIDGE, Tennessee (AP) -- Copies of a high school's student newspaper were seized by administrators because the edition contained stories about birth control and tattoos, stirring a First Amendment debate.

Administrators at Oak Ridge High School went into teachers' classrooms, desks and mailboxes to retrieve all 1,800 copies of the newspaper Tuesday, said teacher Wanda Grooms, who advises the staff, and Brittany Thomas, the student editor.

The Oak Leaf's birth control article listed success rates for different methods and said contraceptives were available from doctors and the local health department. Superintendent Tom Bailey said the article needed to be edited so it would be acceptable for the entire school.

The edition also contained a photo of an unidentified student's tattoo, and the student had not told her parents about the tattoo, said Superintendent Tom Bailey.

"I have a problem with the idea of putting something in the paper that makes us a part of hiding something from the parents," he said.

The paper can be reprinted if the changes are made, he said.

"We have a responsibility to the public to do the right thing," he said. "We've got 14-year-olds that read the newspaper."

Thomas said she wasn't sure about making changes. "I'm not completely OK with reprinting the paper," she said.

First Amendment experts were critical of the seizure.

"This is a terrible lesson in civics," University of Tennessee journalism professor Dwight Teeter said. "This is an issue about the administration wanting to have control. Either the students are going to have a voice, or you're going to have a PR rag for the administration."


THE REST OF THE STORY (http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11/28/studentnewspaper.seize.ap/index.html)
_________________________________

While I do believe in responsible journalism. I dont believe that this school newspaper cross any lines.

However, thats with the opinion of not having seen the paper, how the stories were printed/worded/portrayed.

[StrayRogue]

"This is a terrible lesson in civics," University of Tennessee journalism professor Dwight Teeter said. "This is an issue about the administration wanting to have control. Either the students are going to have a voice, or you're going to have a PR rag for the administration."


Atleast someone in that whole mess has some bloody sense.

[Skeeter]

It's a school newspaper that by default represents the views of the school. It should be edited and heavily.

School newspapers are about learning the ins and outs of Journalism, and the work involved in publishing a paper. Not free speach.

Students have no rights inside a school, including freedom of speech.

[Androidpk]

Originally posted by Skeeter
It's a school newspaper that by default represents the views of the school. It should be edited and heavily.

School newspapers are about learning the ins and outs of Journalism, and the work involved in publishing a paper. Not free speach.

Students have no rights inside a school, including freedom of speech.

Yeah, last time I checked Tennesse was in the United States, not China. :rolleyes:

[Skeeter]

check most school policy. It over rides the constitution.

Schools have free reign to dictate over their students. They used to bring the drug dogs in, and search lockers and students regularly when I was in HS. and that was over 10 years ago.

Now they pat you down at the door.

Save your free speach talk for College

[StrayRogue]

Wow, no wonder your education system is so screwed.

[Gan]

Yes, HS=Prison without the electric chair. Some teachers had me begging for a lethal injection before the semester was done.

[StrayRogue]

Damn. HS was like the best time of my life, ever. With the narrow exception of my university years.

[ElanthianSiren]

I had one year of public high school. The remaining three years I accomplished at a junior college with the help of my guidance counselor. U.S. high schools are subpar at best, and many students don't even know that these types of exchange programs exist.


-M
edited for clarity

[Edited on Tue, November th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Wow, no wonder your education system is so screwed. Having experienced both, I feel very confident in saying that the American education system is better than the British. Not by a whole hell of a lot now, but noticeably better.

I don't get the tattoo thing at all, but I reckon the contraceptive stuff is about removing 14-year-olds' access to sexually explicit material.

The esteemed Mr. Tweeter is giving a terrible lesson in logic, and has fallen into the trap of a false dichotomy. He should have stopped talking after his second sentence.

[Warriorbird]

Speaking of logic problems...


I don't get the tattoo thing at all

You disagree with half of the administration's stance, clearly but agree with the other half (We wouldn't want to have discussion of contraception prevent teenage pregnancy or anything) and because of that you dismiss the professor's entire argument.

Maybe he was more concerned with the tatoo bit. I certainly would've been. He didn't reference contraception in his quote. You just took it there because of your bias.

[Edited on 11-29-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Terminator X]

What exactly is the taboo behind an "article," concerning tattoos? Er...?

Regardless of how misconceptualized the original editor/"perpetrator" of the article in question may have been by maliciously circulating such heinously evil propaganda in the great state of Tennessee... these are issues that young teens *need* to be having adressed and receive feedback in forms other than confiscation.

I'm sure if whatever excuse for an educational environment had actually even incorporated into their curriculum some kind of vaguely open-minded class with adults who could teach the kids about these real life, day-to-day cultural concerns, the article in question could have very possibly not even reached its catastrophic proportian, and in turn, the dumbasses on the schoolboard who wished to actually take necessary strict, civil action against the dangerous Brittnay Thomas/Enemy of the State would have probably looked a lot less dumbass-ish by furthering the stereotype that most Tennesseans are simply insecure conservative douche-bags who don't want tattoos, abortions and negroes anywhere *near* their closer-to-god "You're-going-to-hell-for-not-being-Christian" educational environment :smug:

- The Termite

[xtc]

Originally posted by LatrinsormHaving experienced both, I feel very confident in saying that the American education system is better than the British. Not by a whole hell of a lot now, but noticeably better.

You must be joking, a guffaw? You jest? You have fallen and hit your head? Do you mean to tell me that American high school graduates are better educated than those in Britain, who have completed their A levels? I think not.

[Warriorbird]

Rumour has it that Rhett's from Tennesee.

:whistles:

I think he definitely defies all those stereotypes.

With that said, the point stands. Most of the country has biases against the South and some parts of the Midwest partially because of hidebound, neolithic, and puritanical ideals like these.

[Warriorbird]

I think American high schools are worse than Britain's. I don't think the same can necessarily be said of Britain's post high school education (though it is noticeably cheaper).

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
because of that you dismiss the professor's entire argument.I dismissed the professor's argument because it was and is fallacious. I don't think he was talking about either contraception or tattoos, I think he was talking about the restriction of free speech in general, which is fine, he can have his opinion. He cannot, however, make his final statement true without a ton of backup which he a) does not have and b) knows full well he could never have, if he's got any sense at all.
Originally posted by xtc
Do you mean to tell me that American high school graduates are better educated than those in Britain, who have completed their A levels?I consider the concept of A levels flawed to begin with, and I find backup for my conclusion in the people I've met.

[Warriorbird]

He cannot, however, make his final statement true without a ton of backup which he a) does not have and b) knows full well he could never have, if he's got any sense at all.

I dunno. The case involved seemed like evidence to me. I dislike canned "experts" as much as anyone (and love Jon Stewart's attacks on them) but I think you're reaching.

[Czeska]

First of all, if these fourteen year olds don't know what contraception is available, then their parents haven't done their job.

I guess I'm not seeing what the big deal is about listing factual information about success rates is.

The tat pic should've gotten the student's release before being printed, IMO, but other than that, i don't see why this is a big deal to begin with.

[Gan]

I dont think it has to do as much with the difference in the educational systems of Britian and the US as much as its the comparison of the student.

That is unless they have somehow found out how to isolate the absolutely smartest student from the UK and from the US and then pitted them in an acedemic competition to see who's smarter.

If you're going to throw statistical measurements and surveys at justifying who's smarter then I'll show you 10 different ways to manipulate the data to show you something different at every turn.

[Warriorbird]

Even that wouldn't work. You'd have to assess the full spectrum. From dumbest to smartest...and percentages of each. That isn't very quantifiable.

[Mistomeer]

There is no free speech in High School. It's not as if TN is the only state where high school newspapers are heavily edited.

For example,
http://www.beverlyunderground.com/
"Bushman, however, was in the Highlights room nearly every week expressing his displeasure with many articles, notably those pertaining to the oil well, saying that they can’t be printed and that he wanted 100 percent happy and pro-school stories."

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I consider the concept of A levels flawed to begin with, and I find backup for my conclusion in the people I've met.

Talk about a flawed argument. I can't say I have been very impressed with your average high school graduate, in either Canada or America. I wouldn't say that is proof that the entire concept of high school graduation, in the west, is flawed. It maybe an argument that high school education in the west is lacking however.

We must have met some very different people because on the whole I have found your average English citizen to be far better educated on informed than your average American or Canadian.

[Atlanteax]

American public education is suffering because of the "liberal belief" that school districts funded by more affluent citizens have an unfair advantage over the poorer school districts.

So in the convulted drive for "equality in education" the "liberal think trust" apparently determined that the most "fair" way would be to handicap the well-to-do school districts in favor of the poorer districts, while stressing that the basic circulumn be based on the poorer districts.

.

This had the result of driving a significant portion of the upper echelon of students into private schools instead.

The net result has been an overall downgrade in public school education and results.

.

So I would argue that parents in affluent districts are able to spend as much as they'd like on their local school district.

Instead of taking some money from the affluent public schools to distribute to the poorer schools (which tend to cause the affluent parents to send kids to private school instead of paying more to their public school district) ... have the additional funding be completely derived by funding at the State/Federal level.

.

I'm a product of 4 years public school, so I'm not necessarily biased against public schools.

However, during those 4 years, and since afterwards, I have seen the high quality of my public school district in Michigan gradually degrade in quality of education due to the "subtraction" to enable/continue funding of the school districts in the Detroit and Rural areas. (I blame the Democrat and their Teacher Union lobby)

.

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the public school system end at Grade 8, where the student (and parents) can either pay for a predominantly academic education from 9-12, or attend a sponsored Trade School for workforce speciality training. The Trade Schools would be sponsored (resulting in a significantly decreased cost to attend, compared to the academic schools) by local/state business desiring specially trained workers, or State/Federal funding to ensure that "everyone" has a chance to get the education for a job.

.

In any event, the overall American public school system is in drastic need of a overhaul.

[Warriorbird]

Wow, Atlanteax. Here I thought it had to do with "conservative" unwillingness to provide proportional spending increases for education.

Little stands in the way of "affluent" school districts getting extra funding by local businesses and dedicated individuals. The Fairfax school districts are probably the best example of it I've seen nationally.

The real secret behind what you're saying is most conservatives don't want to actually improve a school district.

Ending statewide education funding would negatively effect those affluent school districts as much as propping up poor ones. Your beliefs indicate that there is something to that "liberal" belief.

From what you're saying you just don't want to pay to help poor people.

I don't particularly want to fund the Iraq War. I can't opt out of that without going to jail. You'd probably get up in arms if people were able to.

I don't want to pay Social Security either, because I'll never see any of it. That doesn't mean I get to freely opt out of it.

Education needs an overhaul...not a vigorous shafting or further denial of funding. Fixing the system is not going to be accomplished by catering to your whims or dislike of the poor.

[Edited on 11-29-2005 by Warriorbird]

[SpunGirl]

Latrinsorm, please explain to me how an article about birth control is "sexually explicit." Saying "when used effectively, condoms have a 98% success rate" is far different than, say, "when Billy and Anne were parked in the car last week he shoved his johnson way up in her vag."

Different. One factual information, one sexually explicit.

-K

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
I can't say I have been very impressed with your average high school graduate, in either Canada or America. I wouldn't say that is proof that the entire concept of high school graduation, in the west, is flawed. It maybe an argument that high school education in the west is lacking however. You have it backwards. I found A levels flawed, THEN I met a lot of people that justified my conclusion. I'm not saying this is a scientifically sound conclusion, but when I'm responding to "no wonder [America's] education system is so screwed", it's not like I'm arguing with Watson and Crick.
Originally posted by SpunGirl
Latrinsorm, please explain to me how an article about birth control is "sexually explicit." I don't think it is, but from the way the Superintendent worded his statement, it seems he sure does.

[Warriorbird]

it's not like I'm arguing with Watson and Crick.

Yet, curiously enough, you demand random professors show a great deal of empirical research to back up quotes that may have been taken out of context by a news source.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Wow, no wonder your education system is so screwed. Having experienced both, I feel very confident in saying that the American education system is better than the British. Not by a whole hell of a lot now, but noticeably better.



HAHAH dumbest statement ever.

[Latrinsorm]

When I'm published, that'll be a very good point.

[Warriorbird]

I see. Thus rendering all your source presentations and requests on here irrelevent?

;)

[FinallyDomesticated]

1. Why is this such a big deal? Because we, as Americans, have "progressed" our lovely country to the point where we can sue anyone for anything. Therefore, everyone must cover their asses.

2. I do not think a school newspaper is the place to discuss sex, religion, politics, etc. The kids can learn about journalism without focusing on edgy topics.

3. There are simply policies in place in most schools in this area which state that pretty much anything above a G rating must require parents' permission. I have spent this first semester implementing a bullying prevention program at a local middle school. I had to first give my plans to the school, then to the board - all in all, there were about half a dozen 'checks' along the way that each had to be cleared. The first week, trouble arose when word got out that I was using the word "gay" in my teachings. I had every good intention of trying to teach them the potential hurtfulness of using the word every five minutes. Apparently all a few of them got out of the whole period was, 'wow teacher said a bad word.' I was 'talked to' about this and (couldn't but think of GS) had to read through some policy.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I see. Thus rendering all your source presentations and requests on here irrelevent?I think you have me confused with someone that ever did that.

[Makkah]

I fucking hate you all...

That said. Yes, I'm from Tennessee. Yes, I went to a public high school for 4 years. Yes, I got from it what I needed to get and had a god damn blast in doing so.

I do have to agree that a HIGH SCHOOL newspaper is no real place to spout controversial subjects although the tattoo shit is kinda effed up. From what I've always heard, yes a school's policy can supercede any cries of "FREEDOM OF SPEECH," but I was always "too cool" for that shit.

SINCERELY,

RHETT, dude behind Maliku

PS: You mean yall got shoes AND plumbing up there? Well gaaawd damn.

PSS: Fuck England.

[FinallyDomesticated]

Originally posted by Terminator X
What exactly is the taboo behind an "article," concerning tattoos? Er...?

Regardless of how misconceptualized the original editor/"perpetrator" of the article in question may have been by maliciously circulating such heinously evil propaganda in the great state of Tennessee... these are issues that young teens *need* to be having adressed and receive feedback in forms other than confiscation.

I'm sure if whatever excuse for an educational environment had actually even incorporated into their curriculum some kind of vaguely open-minded class with adults who could teach the kids about these real life, day-to-day cultural concerns, the article in question could have very possibly not even reached its catastrophic proportian, and in turn, the dumbasses on the schoolboard who wished to actually take necessary strict, civil action against the dangerous Brittnay Thomas/Enemy of the State would have probably looked a lot less dumbass-ish by furthering the stereotype that most Tennesseans are simply insecure conservative douche-bags who don't want tattoos, abortions and negroes anywhere *near* their closer-to-god "You're-going-to-hell-for-not-being-Christian" educational environment :smug:

- The Termite


Who has these stereotypes? What idiot would believe that? First off, the school district in question has a great report card and has achieved academic excellence by having less than 5% of the students scoring less than proficient. Tennessee has a higher percentage of black people in their population than the national average. Black people are moving to the south in general whereas statistics show that the other regions of the country are declining in that area. Tennessee's abortion rate is not far off from the national average - 21% vs 16%. I don't know the numbers on our tattooing or douching habits. It is just beyond me as to why any person with any intelligence would even refer to such a stereotype. It doesn't matter where you are, people are going to piss you off. People are going to be smarter than you, dumber than you, better looking, more religious, wealthier, poorer, etc. Its simply ignorant to stereotype a group like that.

I truly hope that you are not one of those who believes such a ridiculus view of a state's people. And if you are, please reconsider your feelings and grow above such stereotypes. It is in these stereotypes that hate is bred.

[Gan]

This is really off topic considering the initial direction of this thread, but to address US high schools vs. foreign high school education I want to throw out a theory that I read in the Economist last month.

It was said, and I'll see if I can find the article, that in developing countries where societal and economic emphasis is on industry and manufacturing there is a coorelation of those countries having a strong secondary educational system.

In developed countries where manufacturing and industry are more technology based there is a stronger emphasis on post-secondary education. Looking at it kind of makes sense if its looked at from a straight forward perspective.

I dont feel though that its an excuse for poorly established primary and secondary educational systems. Especially if post-secondary education is the emphasis for the production of next generation working population. It stands to reason that the better equipped the students are as they enter post-secondary institutions then the further that they can take that education.

[longshot]

I took an advertising and social responsibility class that covered communication law in college. I planned on attending law school at the time, so I paid attention.

Not going to law school was the single best decision I've made in my life... but that's another story.

Anyways, there are very clear laws about freedoms regarding high school newspapers. The administration has the right to heavily edit content of the school newspaper.

The stupidity of this is that the paper was actually printed... maybe this is just another case of people in the South moving so slowly? I really don't know.

Freedom of the press for high school increase as the affiliation with the school decreases. For example, if some kids made a newsletter in their own time and distributed it off of school grounds, there would be limits as to what the administration could do.


Originally posted by Atlanteax

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the public school system end at Grade 8, where the student (and parents) can either pay for a predominantly academic education from 9-12, or attend a sponsored Trade School for workforce speciality training. The Trade Schools would be sponsored (resulting in a significantly decreased cost to attend, compared to the academic schools) by local/state business desiring specially trained workers, or State/Federal funding to ensure that "everyone" has a chance to get the education for a job.



This is kind of what's done in Japan. There are only three years of high school (grades 10-11-12), and they are not mandatory.

Mandatory education ends at grade 9.

There are normal high schools, and also vocational based high schools. The worst high school in my area (that basically anyone can go to) was the agricultural high school. Wow... those teachers were alchoholics.

Also, entering high school in Japan requires passing an entrance exam that is quite hellish, depending on the school. There are no real district lines- you go to the school where you test into.

So in essence, the deck is reshuffled after the ninth grade.

The kids with zero future will go immediately to work. This is an extremely small percentage of the population though. Some will go for vocational training in the vocational high schools.

The rest are grouped with peers that are on the same academic level as they are. It works pretty well. It's not perfect by any means, but the idea that you get the kids out of the system that really won't benefit from further education is a huge advantage.

[iomelindi]

"We have a responsibility to the public to do the right thing," he said. "We've got 14-year-olds that read the newspaper."

And 14 year olds don't have sex? What planet are they on....

[Terminator X]

Originally posted by FinallyDomesticated

Originally posted by Terminator X
What exactly is the taboo behind an "article," concerning tattoos? Er...?

Regardless of how misconceptualized the original editor/"perpetrator" of the article in question may have been by maliciously circulating such heinously evil propaganda in the great state of Tennessee... these are issues that young teens *need* to be having adressed and receive feedback in forms other than confiscation.

I'm sure if whatever excuse for an educational environment had actually even incorporated into their curriculum some kind of vaguely open-minded class with adults who could teach the kids about these real life, day-to-day cultural concerns, the article in question could have very possibly not even reached its catastrophic proportian, and in turn, the dumbasses on the schoolboard who wished to actually take necessary strict, civil action against the dangerous Brittnay Thomas/Enemy of the State would have probably looked a lot less dumbass-ish by furthering the stereotype that most Tennesseans are simply insecure conservative douche-bags who don't want tattoos, abortions and negroes anywhere *near* their closer-to-god "You're-going-to-hell-for-not-being-Christian" educational environment :smug:

- The Termite


Who has these stereotypes? What idiot would believe that? First off, the school district in question has a great report card and has achieved academic excellence by having less than 5% of the students scoring less than proficient. Tennessee has a higher percentage of black people in their population than the national average. Black people are moving to the south in general whereas statistics show that the other regions of the country are declining in that area. Tennessee's abortion rate is not far off from the national average - 21% vs 16%. I don't know the numbers on our tattooing or douching habits. It is just beyond me as to why any person with any intelligence would even refer to such a stereotype. It doesn't matter where you are, people are going to piss you off. People are going to be smarter than you, dumber than you, better looking, more religious, wealthier, poorer, etc. Its simply ignorant to stereotype a group like that.

I truly hope that you are not one of those who believes such a ridiculus view of a state's people. And if you are, please reconsider your feelings and grow above such stereotypes. It is in these stereotypes that hate is bred.

I see you chose to write a healthy response to the very bottom of my original post. I was just being my usual ridiculus self. Ignore what you may or may not find offensive. Sorry :sorry:

[FinallyDomesticated]

"I was just being my usual ridiculus self. Ignore what you may or may not find offensive. Sorry "

Whew. I'm glad. I really would have hated to gather some of my bible thumpin, cousin marrying, outhouse using, moonshine running, deeply religious Tennessee people together to hunt you down. ;)

[AnticorRifling]

The purpose of education is to teach us how to think, not what to think.


I think the fiasco of pulling and forcing an edit is, at best, a very stupid move.

[Unique]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
The purpose of education is to teach us how to think, not what to think.



Unfortunately high schools are moving away from this idea. As we implement student proficiency testing and government mandated curricula, we will only increase the teaching of What to Think.

The high school system is broken and has been for years. I doubt anyone has the political will or muscle to fix it though.

Unique.

[Skeeter]

I think moving towards standarized testing was a bad idea. Some people just don't test well.

The current JVS and OWE programs in highschools do a fairly good job of weeding out the losers and uninspired.

I wouldn't be a school administrater for any price. I've seen what my mom has had to deal with for the last 30 years.

[xtc]

Originally posted by iomelindi
"We have a responsibility to the public to do the right thing," he said. "We've got 14-year-olds that read the newspaper."

And 14 year olds don't have sex? What planet are they on....

Not every 14 year old is having sex. However the number of 14 years old having sex has increased through out the years. What do you attribute that to?

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by xtc]

[Skeeter]

evil video games

[Latrinsorm]

Don't forget the LIBERAL MEDIA and the RELIGIOUS RIGHT who somehow manage to simultaneously control the country.

[Warriorbird]

It is pretty strange... given three branches of Republican control of the government.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
I can't say I have been very impressed with your average high school graduate, in either Canada or America. I wouldn't say that is proof that the entire concept of high school graduation, in the west, is flawed. It maybe an argument that high school education in the west is lacking however. You have it backwards. I found A levels flawed, THEN I met a lot of people that justified my conclusion. I'm not saying this is a scientifically sound conclusion, but when I'm responding to "no wonder [America's] education system is so screwed", it's not like I'm arguing with Watson and Crick.

It is a good thing you aren't arguing with Watson and Crick.

Mathematical literacy:

England ranks 8th: United States ranks 18.

SOURCE (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_mat_lit)


Scientific literacy:

England ranks 4th: America ranks 14th

SOURCE (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_sci_lit)


Adult literacy:

England ranks 25: America ranks 68th

SOURCE (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_lit_tot_pop)

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by xtc]

[Latrinsorm]

You forgot that everyone in the world is biased against America, so you have to add 20 to each rank. We're so good we're in the negatives. Like 15 more countries have to be made before we're even on the charts.

They got us on the adult literacy thing still, but we learn from Chuck Norris. We don't need to read, we just stare down books until we get the information we need.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
You forgot that everyone in the world is biased against America, so you have to add 20 to each rank. We're so good we're in the negatives. Like 15 more countries have to be made before we're even on the charts.

LOL like that argument would work on Watson and Crick. You must have obtained that one from the Bush propaganda handbook.


They got us on the adult literacy thing still, but we learn from Chuck Norris. We don't need to read, we just stare down books until we get the information we need.

Walker Texas spelling B champ.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
LOL like that argument would work on Watson and Crick.Well you know, that or a series of roundhouse kicks to the face. Their choice.

p.s: OECD/PISA mathematical literacy deals with the extent to which 15-year-olds can be regarded as informed, reflective citizens and intelligent consumers.

https://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/38/51/33707192.pdf

Sorta makes applying it to a debate about the educational system as a whole a bit dicey, wouldn't you say?

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by Latrinsorm]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm.

p.s: OECD/PISA mathematical literacy deals with the extent to which 15-year-olds can be regarded as informed, reflective citizens and intelligent consumers.

https://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/38/51/33707192.pdf

Sorta makes applying it to a debate about the educational system as a whole a bit dicey, wouldn't you say?

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by Latrinsorm]


I didn't use the OECD as my source. Secondly you were selective with the information you quoted:

"The OECD/PISA mathematical literacy domain is concerned with the capacity of students to analyse, reason, and interpret mathematical problems in a variety of situations………..in which the use of quantitative or spatial reasoning or other mathematical competencies would help clarify, formulate or solve the problem"

and if the same standard is being applied than each nation is being evaluated equally.

but again I repeat I did not use the OECD as my source.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
I didn't use the OECD as my source.To be technical, the source you used used OECD as its source.
and if the same standard is being applied than each nation is being evaluated equally.I was joking about the -20 thing man. The point is neither education system we're talking about finishes at 15 years old, not that it's somehow unequal.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
I didn't use the OECD as my source.To be technical, the source you used used OECD as its source.

Sorry you are correct, I see that chart lists the OECD as its source.


and if the same standard is being applied than each nation is being evaluated equally.I was joking about the -20 thing man. The point is neither education system we're talking about finishes at 15 years old, not that it's somehow unequal. [/quote]

True but I think we were discussing high school only and 15 is a good median age for that.

[Latrinsorm]

I agree that 15 is a decent median, but wtf man. People don't do crash tests on half of a car's frame. I'll retract my hypothesis if you get some info on 18-year-olds or high school graduates.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Mathematical literacy:

England ranks 8th: United States ranks 18.>>

Put me up against a 15-year-old in England and I'll knock his face off with my 1337 numbers, thx.

[Bobmuhthol]

Okay, I looked at that OECD PDF file.. and I have to say.. fuck that fucking thing very hard. If I was tested on that, I would fail instantly.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I agree that 15 is a decent median, but wtf man. People don't do crash tests on half of a car's frame. I'll retract my hypothesis if you get some info on 18-year-olds or high school graduates.


LOL that is your argument, you disagree because the OECD tested at 15 rather than 17? Are you imagining that the math and literacy fairy will visit U.S. students sometime between 15 and 17?

[xtc]

This is a graph ranking math and science literacy among nations around world, at the Grade 12 level. This comes from the Trends in International Math and Science Society. Notice how the United States comes after Lithuiana and just before Cypress.

http://timss.bc.edu





[Edited on 11-30-2005 by xtc]

[Bobmuhthol]

Unfortunately, the United States has so many motherfucking idiots (as there are so many motherfucking people) that these studies make the country look bad. There are plenty of US high school seniors that absolutely fucking pwn at math.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Unfortunately, the United States has so many motherfucking idiots (as there are so many motherfucking people) that these studies make the country look bad. There are plenty of US high school seniors that absolutely fucking pwn at math.

No doubt but to evaluate effectively you look at the averages.

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say the people bringing the average down are not wanted in this country, but the Constitution disapproves of deporting/killing them.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say the people bringing the average down are not wanted in this country, but the Constitution disapproves of deporting/killing them.


LOL, Bob you Fascist. Remind me not to vote for you if you ever run for public office.

You remind me of H.L. Mencken, he was a reporter before both our times. Here is one of his quotes:

"Democracy is the theory that holds that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
This is a graph ranking math and science literacy among nations around world, at the Grade 12 level. This comes from the Trends in International Math and Science Society. OK here's what I don't get. From the very link you provide:
TIMSS, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, is designed to help countries all over the world improve student learning in mathematics and science. It collects educational achievement data at the fourth and eighth gradesAm I missing something here?

Upon google searching for "twelfth", it looks like the only report with data on 12th grade is from 1995 and apparently they stopped measuring 12th graders after that.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I agree that 15 is a decent median, but wtf man. People don't do crash tests on half of a car's frame. I'll retract my hypothesis if you get some info on 18-year-olds or high school graduates.


LOL that is your argument, you disagree because the OECD tested at 15 rather than 17? Are you imagining that the math and literacy fairy will visit U.S. students sometime between 15 and 17?


Nevermind the infamous HS phenomen of "Senoritis" (where "Junioristis" is starting to take root).

If you don't know what the -itis is, it's in regard to students slacking off and trying to breeze through the rest of the year (which likely impacts their ability to take such education evaluation tests in a serious way).

[xtc]

Originally posted by Atlanteax

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I agree that 15 is a decent median, but wtf man. People don't do crash tests on half of a car's frame. I'll retract my hypothesis if you get some info on 18-year-olds or high school graduates.


LOL that is your argument, you disagree because the OECD tested at 15 rather than 17? Are you imagining that the math and literacy fairy will visit U.S. students sometime between 15 and 17?


Nevermind the infamous HS phenomen of "Senoritis" (where "Junioristis" is starting to take root).

If you don't know what the -itis is, it's in regard to students slacking off and trying to breeze through the rest of the year (which likely impacts their ability to take such education evaluation tests in a serious way).

Well assuming your assumption is true, however unsubstantiated it may be, then the comparison is fair and equal, as both countries would be "slacking off".

[xtc]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
This is a graph ranking math and science literacy among nations around world, at the Grade 12 level. This comes from the Trends in International Math and Science Society. OK here's what I don't get. From the very link you provide:
TIMSS, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, is designed to help countries all over the world improve student learning in mathematics and science. It collects educational achievement data at the fourth and eighth gradesAm I missing something here?

Upon google searching for "twelfth", it looks like the only report with data on 12th grade is from 1995 and apparently they stopped measuring 12th graders after that.


Yes you are. The graph I posted was for Math and Science literacy.

"Students Tested in Mathematics and Science Literacy tested students in the final year of preparation for the baccalauréat (nonrepeaters of this final year). This included students in Grade 12 preparing for the baccalauréat and in Grade 13. "

http://isc.bc.edu/timss1995i/TIMSSPDF/TR3apndx.pdf

[Warriorbird]

I'm sorry Latrin. The I.B. would fuck up most American high school students on average.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
In any event, the overall American public school system is in drastic need of a overhaul.

And if there's any justice, you'll have nothing to do about it ... then again, most right leaning conservatives don't want anyone else to getting the ride they were able to get. It keeps the poor in their place after all.

The system needs an overhaul, but in a step opposite of anything you proposed.

Large scale consolidation needs to stop.

Class sizes need to be reduced.

Teachers and administrators need to become better qualified.

Funds for education need to be spent on education.

Arts and music need to be preserved, and in many cases; upgraded or introduced.

Physical education needs to be physical education.

Campuses need to be closed and the corporations need to be removed from the cafeterias.

Do half of that and it will do wonders for our education system.

Luckily for us, the best you can do is post bullshit and cry about your tax burden like Tamral.

Per the actual topic ... It really surprises me that the paper was pulled. We covered the effectiveness of contraception in health class my sophomore year in HS. Were I an administrator, I'd be more concerned with the sad state of spoken english amongst students, girls dressing like porn stars, boys wearing pants that hang off of their ass, and the overall lack of academic achievement across the board. The article making it out shows a lack of involvement by faculty. The article in general would tell me that at least one student is making the grade.

The administrator in this case really needs to re-examine the curriculum.

The tattoo is another story. Unlike an article on safe-sex, this story is promoting an act that would be illegal for a majority of the student body. That may not have been the intent, but that would have been the outcome.

While I'm not against ink on the skin, I do believe there is a certain level of intolerance that needs to be observed, and that's age.

I received ink soon after my 18th when I became the legal consenting age. In doing so I was made ineligible for any extracurricular school activity. To me it was a valuable lesson in respect. I think this sort of lesson is absent in many school settings in this day and age. Our grammar was corrected, use of profanity was punished, we were expected to dress appropriately ... and we were expected to dress somewhat formally while at away games.