Guilty or Innocent?

[GSLeloo]

Well, we just started reading this article about Koby Bryant (excuse any misspellings) and I was just curious as to what you guys think... is he guilty or innocent?

And in case you didn't know, the victim's story is right now this. He bent her over a chair, wrapping his hands around her neck, and anally raped her for eight minutes. He then forced her to like his genitalia and then told her to go clean up. And they found blood on this shirt.

[Artha]

Guilty.

[GSLeloo]

I don't think she's lying. His lawyers offered her 5m to drop it, she refused.

[Snapp]

I really don't know what I think about it, but someone that famous and whatnot really doesn't need to rape anyone to get sex... Whereas an unknown could just be looking for attention/publicity.. especially since I've heard she tried out for American Idol, kinda puts a new light on things.

[GSLeloo]

But she also has refused to have her picture shown, or her name released, and she won't even show up to trial.

[Artha]

I don't think I'd want to be known as 'That girl who got raped by Kobe Bryant'.

Also, since she's keeping her name private, she really doesn't want the attention, does she?

[Wezas]

my head's court is still out. There were so many people coming forward and saying that she isn't totally there mentally, that she has issues. Were there any bruises on her neck? I heard there were bruises in certain regions on her, but those could possibly be explained in ways I won't go into.

[GSLeloo]

Of what I've heard so far, she had bruises I believe on her neck, she had vaginal tearing, he had blood on his collar. he admitted to having intercourse with her after denying it for about a week or two and there is evidence that they did indeed have intercourse. He also didn't use a condom.

[Betheny]

What? What'd he supposedly do?

[GSLeloo]

He supposedly raped her.

She was a 19 year old working at this hotel, she consented for making out with him, but then he wanted to get into the hot tub, she wanted to go home, he wouldn't let her and raped her.

(Edited to add more detail)

[Edited on 10-11-2003 by GSLeloo]

[Parkbandit]

Innocent.

Or at least the 'victim' has some responsibility in this as well.

[GSLeloo]

How can the victim have some responsibility in it? If he forced her to have sex with him, how is she responsible at all?

[Snapp]

I think there is more to it, and that she did consent..but maybe realized after they started that she didn't want to.. I don't think it was as cut and dry as "making out" then he decided to rape her.

[Xcalibur]

Don't want to start a debate here, but if he forced her (mentaly or physicly) and she wins (big bucks and him in prison) there's a LOT of people that will be sued.

Name me one man that didn't insisted with his gf to have sex (thus mental pressure)

edit: he's guilty :lol:

[Edited on 11-10-03 by Xcalibur]

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Don't want to start a debate here, but if he forced her (mentaly or physicly) and she wins (big bucks and him in prison) there's a LOT of people that will be sued.

Name me one man that didn't insisted with his gf to have sex (thus mental pressure)

edit: he's guilty :lol:

[Edited on 11-10-03 by Xcalibur]


There's a lot of men who don't pressure the one their with into having sex.

[GSLeloo]

It's one thing to insist and her consent, even if she doesn't really want to. But for a girl to say "No" and try to leave and be stopped and forced to stay and then held over a chair and raped, that's another thing.

[Xcalibur]

we really live in a different world then.

Here, all my buddies, all my friends had to insist one day or an other. Either to convince that first one that it won't be as bad as she thinks (or you love her enough, bla bla bla) or, too many exemples.

GSleloo, i wasn't speaking of physical pressure, there's a big difference, we all know that

edited: I don't know for you, but if someone was to rape me, I would had more than just a few bruise and some blood lost. I would had a broken leg and a broken arm because i would fight back. I know some women are very afraid of getting hurt, but between us, what is more hurting in the long run.

[Edited on 11-10-03 by Xcalibur]

[GSLeloo]

Ok.. imagine a 20 year old against a professional basketball player. All he had to do was put his hands around her neck, which he did, and squeeze hard enough and hold her down so she couldn't fight back. Plus, for a lot of people fear puts them into shock so they can't fight back.

[Hips]

Any sort of pressure to meant to persuade/convince/etc. one's significant other (or otherwise) into having sex or doing anything sexual is, in my opinion, wrong.

If I say no, I mean it, and I'm not going to let any sweet-talking convince me otherwise.

[Weedmage Princess]

I still think innocent...then again this trial is just beginning so we don't know too much...

However...not only is she an American Idol reject. (which really doesn't make a difference one way or another) she has a history of mental troubles, she's tried to commit suicide not too long before the incident because her boyfriend left her, and this isn't the first time she's pulled the "he raped me!" stint...

If all those factors are true...(and I think it's safe to assume they are seeing as they've been public knowledge for a while now and we haven't heard talk of anyone denying them) then...it looks like he wanted a one night stand...she obviously wanted more...and he just picked the wrong chick to have a fling with.

If he's guilty, I hope he is found guilty. If he's innocent, I hope he's found guilty..heh. He's married, and his wife JUST had a baby like 5-6 months prior, and he's out there doing that? He's scum, and deserves to suffer.

[Xcalibur]

Gsleloo, indeed, so if she really didn't wanted, why just a few bruises? because he's strong and tall? How about trying to tear his skin with your nails? trying to squeeze his feet with yours? so many way to defend oneself (weight is not that important in fight)

gs3 michiko, everyone knows when a women says no, it's a yes hidden :rolleyes: (seriously, if a guy ask a drunk girl to sleep with her. she says no 5 times. At the 6, she says yes. Who is to be blamed? (that exemple if not taken from my personnal life, hehe)

[Camri]

It doesn't matter what they were doing that lead up to it, and it doesn't even matter if she tried to leave or not.

If she said NO at any point and he didn't stop. It's rape.

And I think he's guilty.

He might be famous, and have sex available to him. But being famous also seems to make some people think they can get away with more than regular people.

[peam]

I have no idea if the guy's guilty or not. I don't think either story is strong enough to form a solid opinion.

Hopefully what's right will come out in the end.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
If he's guilty, I hope he is found guilty. If he's innocent, I hope he's found guilty..heh. He's married, and his wife JUST had a baby like 5-6 months prior, and he's out there doing that? He's scum, and deserves to suffer.

Damn straight, down with cheaters! :smug:

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
gs3 michiko, everyone knows when a women says no, it's a yes hidden :rolleyes:

So, if I go up to you with a burnt sienna crayon and say "Let me shove this crayon, in it's entirety, in the hole of your penis...and you say no.....you really mean yes? Cause if so......that's kick ass, and I'm on my way! :bouncy:

[Hips]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
gs3 michiko, everyone knows when a women says no, it's a yes hidden :rolleyes: (seriously, if a guy ask a drunk girl to sleep with her. she says no 5 times. At the 6, she says yes. Who is to be blamed? (that exemple if not taken from my personnal life, hehe)

I don't know what kind of girls YOU sleep with, but I know that when I say no, I mean it. And that's that.

[Edaarin]

At the preliminary hearing, the sheriff/policeman who examined her right afterward said that he didn't see any marks at all on her neck.

I don't think he did it, and if you think many pro athletes are completely faithful to their wives, then you're ridiculously naive. Not saying it's right, and if at any point she said that she didn't want to continue, he should have got up and left. But in cases like this, there's no way to know who is telling the truth. There seem to be a lot of inconsistencies in her story, and he stands to lose a hell of a lot in endorsements and reputation. Although he has gotten some street cred.

Kobe, door. Door, Kobe. NBA, meet your new poster child, LeBron. I wish they could find some way to get rid of his mom though, she's annoying as hell.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess

Originally posted by Xcalibur
gs3 michiko, everyone knows when a women says no, it's a yes hidden :rolleyes:

So, if I go up to you with a burnt sienna crayon and say "Let me shove this crayon, in it's entirety, in the hole of your penis...and you say no.....you really mean yes? Cause if so......that's kick ass, and I'm on my way! :bouncy:

hehehe i'm very far, but if you offer me 5 millions, hmm.. let me thinks :roll:

[Weedmage Princess]

Wow..your mood is right on...heh.

[Edaarin]

Yikes. And Xcalibur, in the States you could get in trouble for exactly that situation. If you pressure a drunk girl when she isn't interested, then quite simply, you're a scumbag. If you're saying she means yes, you're a moron, because here no doesn't mean yes.

And wow. if you managed to hook up with someone who can't think straight while you're in complete control of your facilities, congratulations, you're no better than a date rapist.

[Xcalibur]

I've seen people do WAY more than that for WAY less money on fear factor and crazy show like that

I'm sick, PHYSICLY (i just took some buckley's syrop, man... i think i'd prefer the pencil thing):lol:

[Ravenstorm]

Her story doesn't stand up well. Plus I heard the 5 mil settlement was just a rumor and no money has been offered at all. Though paying a few bucks to make a possible life sentence go away even if you're innocent isn't a bad idea.

Verdict: no clue. I'll leave it to the jury to figure out.

Raven

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Yikes. And Xcalibur, in the States you could get in trouble for exactly that situation. If you pressure a drunk girl when she isn't interested, then quite simply, you're a scumbag. If you're saying she means yes, you're a moron, because here no doesn't mean yes.

And wow. if you managed to hook up with someone who can't think straight while you're in complete control of your facilities, congratulations, you're no better than a date rapist.

eh quit your agressive judgement, I never said i was that kind of guy, and I never said i would take a no from a drunk for a yes.

Exemple, I just saw The Italian Job, when you see Norton flirting the blond in his house, she doesn't want, she says no. He insists, she finaly says yes. That was my analogy. If the girl says yes after 5 tries, then it's a yes.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Name me one man that didn't insisted with his gf to have sex (thus mental pressure)


Good luck

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
If the girl says yes after 5 tries, then it's a yes.

And if the guy says yes after x amount of tries (no matter what the circumstances) then..it's a yes and the green light for my Crayola mutilation.

*prepares for her trip to Quebec, packs the 64 crayon box with the built in sharpener*

[Camri]

Go, Weedmage Princess!

[Snapp]

I'll put up a few hundred bucks towards that trip Weedmage!

[Edited on 10-11-2003 by Snapp]

[GSLeloo]

Weedmage Princess is my new official hero!

[Xcalibur]

I think I saw in what point I was wrong. :lol:

[Camri]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
I think I saw in what point I was wrong. :lol:

And that's probably a good thing, since she hasn't had time to buy the airline ticket yet. :yes:

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
If he's innocent, I hope he's found guilty..heh. He's married, and his wife JUST had a baby like 5-6 months prior, and he's out there doing that? He's scum, and deserves to suffer.

Speaking as a typical male, I think that his cheating has already hurt his career and marriage, why would he need criminal charges against him? If his wife has forgiven him (believe it or not) then I don't think he needs to answer to anyone else. The public knows and have made their opinion of him.

Cheating is wrong. But the only one he needs to answer to is his wife. If any of you were to cheat on your significant other, and made up with them, would you want to be punished by others?

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Camri

Originally posted by Xcalibur
I think I saw in what point I was wrong. :lol:

And that's probably a good thing, since she hasn't had time to buy the airline ticket yet. :yes:

ehheh i meant about the insisting part, but if she wants to come around and harass me until i say yes, come, you'll see how beautiful my town is :bounce:

[Camri]

Ok, I'm with Snapp.

How much do you want me to throw in on the ticket?

[Weedmage Princess]

It's like this....

I'm not saying anyone has the right to punish him for having an affair...what I'm saying is...his wrongdoing put him in a precarious situation, where now he's being questioned for rape. Sort of like a mugger who goes to hold up a liquor store with a knife, gets shot by the store owner who doesn't have a valid license to carry a fire arm. Is it wrong of the owner to have used that firearm to shoot the mugger? Yes. Does anyone really care, considering what was going on? No. Does anyone feel bad for the mugger? No. Same deal with Kobe. He gets no sympathy from me. He's now being questioned for rape. Had he done the right thing to begin with, this wouldn't be happening to him...so...No, I don't feel sorry for him, yes..I hope he gets found guilty and get sent away to prison. *shrugs*

As far as me being in his situation...wouldn't happen...I'd leave my husband before I went off with some other dude.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
How can the victim have some responsibility in it? If he forced her to have sex with him, how is she responsible at all?

* What was she doing in his room? Her job description as concierge does not include having to go to celebrity rooms to 'help' them.

* Stories in the press about her are still circulating... Her need for celebrity attention... her unstable mental health... her stalking the Denver Nugget players...

* Stories in the press that this isn't the first time she has claimed she has been raped.

Now.. I think Kobe has a TON of responsibility here as well... he shouldn't have put himself in this situation. But this wouldn't be the first case of a star struck, attention deprived young lady that felt she could gain something by seducing a professional sports figure.

[Skirmisher]

Lets all just wait a bit huh?

The trial has a wee bit to go and after that we will all know a heck of a lot more.

At this point, unless you were in the room with them you don't know anything.

Patience.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Lets all just wait a bit huh?

The trial has a wee bit to go and after that we will all know a heck of a lot more.

At this point, unless you were in the room with them you don't know anything.

Patience.

By your logic then.. we will never know anything as we were not in the room. Just because it is in a courtroom, does not always mean the truth comes out.

Prime example: OJ

[Carl Spackler]

Originally posted by Xcalibur


gs3 michiko, everyone knows when a women says no, it's a yes hidden :rolleyes: (seriously, if a guy ask a drunk girl to sleep with her. she says no 5 times. At the 6, she says yes. Who is to be blamed? (that exemple if not taken from my personnal life, hehe)

Wrong. With the way the system works today. If a girl says yes, and has 1 drink in her at the time, she can come out the next day and say she was intoxicated and that you took advantage of her. I don't want this to be taken the wrong way. But the scale is heavily tipped in the womens direction. But as a general rule, females are more often the victims of this type of crime. Thats why it is such a fine line, people often feel sorry for the girl. But they can also fail to recognize that maybe she's a money grubbing psychotic whore.

My friend was accused of tying a girl up and raping his ex-girlfiend. She said he had a gun. The police came searched his room, no gun. And here is the best part, she accused him of doing this on a weekend that we had all left town to go to my friends cottage. Imagine if you had been accused of something like this. It would be incredibly traumatic. It killed his school year, and all this girl has to do is go through counseling. Fuck that he faced a huge sentence. I think that if a person is going to falsely accuse someone of something that serious, they should face charges of similar severity.

Now I think jurys need to take some things in to account. Like the fact that she could have clawed at him. Punched him, kicked, bitten. Theres a multitude of things a girl or guy could do in that situation. If she didn't fight back, or wasn't screaming for help. Perhaps she wanted it. This isn't a game where you can turn it off when you don't want it. If she was sober and said yes at the time, or didn't say no, then frankly i don't think she should have any case.

And frankly I think she should show her face. It's bullshit that Kobe's career can hinge on this. And she can hide behind a curtain. Frankly I think everything in a case like this needs to be public.

[Edited on 10-11-2003 by Carl Spackler]

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by Snapp
I really don't know what I think about it, but someone that famous and whatnot really doesn't need to rape anyone to get sex... .

And someone with that pretty of a wife doesnt need to cheat. And remember that one actress i forget her name who was shoplifting. Yeah someone that rich doesnt need to steal.

On the news they said Kobe's lawyer accidently said her name in court 6 times. 6! Yeah thats an accident. :rolleyes: And they claimed you could have vaginal tearing if you had three sex partners in a very short period of time. They said doing both of these things violated rape shield laws which is pretty sad. No wonder women dont come forward to convict these morons when it does happen. If Kobe did this i hope he spends at least 25 years in a real prison not a rich boy prison. If he is innocent i hope the girl kills herself.

[StrayRogue]

WTF? When a woman says no, she invariably means it.

[Carl Spackler]

Well I mean tehre could be a positive side of him in prison... he'd beef-up and come out a freak of nature like tyson (granted mike was an animal when he went in there) and kobes team would probably run the prison bball leagues

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
By your logic then.. we will never know anything as we were not in the room. Just because it is in a courtroom, does not always mean the truth comes out.

Prime example: OJ

Ohhhh, so close.
Wrong answer however.

I have no doubt in my mind about OJ's guilt after reading about all the evidence that was presented at trial.

I am not saying that we will never know, oh quick to judge one, I am simply saying that it might be better to hear all the evidence that both sides will present first hmmm?

[Tendarian]

If he is guilty i hope he is to busy with his cell mate Bubba to have time to play prison bball.

[Ilvane]

I am not one to usually defend rapists, but the press said that she had sex three times before she went into the room the Kobe. She also went in to the room and was making out with him, and etc..

What would turn a guy that everyone says is a sweet, nice guy into a rapist all of a sudden? It just doesn't seem to fit at all.

His wife, Vanessa had been on drugs, and he had been taking care of her and getting her into counseling. I'm willing to bet, he was having trouble in his marriage.

I'm sorry that he even cheated with her, because that is just plain dumb. One thing you never heard about Kobe Bryant was that he was a big cheater.

I don't think the rapist should be shown on TV, I personally don't think the trial at all should be on TV. It's really not necessary. I hate the fact that those details came out.

Rape victims, they have things called triggers that sometimes brings back the rape they had in the past. I can just imagine that the details being spread everywhere to people is hurting people who have already had enough to go through.

-A

P.S. The jury is still out, I'll have to decide on whether he's guilty or innocent after the trial.

[Jenisi]

I think her credibility sucks, but that still doesn't make her a liar. Kinda like the boy who cried wolf ya'know? But personally, cries for attention like that, and putting yourself in those positions.. something bad was bound to happen to her at one time or another. From her past, she never seemed to have a problem "giving it up" before.

[Adhara]

When a woman says no, it doesn't matter if she means yes or no. Maybe she's thinking 49% yes and 51% no. Maybe she really wants it bad but wants to be begged. It doesn't matter! The point is, when a man hears a woman say no, he should TAKE IT as a no and act accordingly.

As soon as the woman says NO and the man keeps going, it's rape. And that even if she said yes in the beginning, even if they made out, masturbated or had oral sex. When the word no is uttered, it should stop immediately.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Ohhhh, so close.
Wrong answer however.

I have no doubt in my mind about OJ's guilt after reading about all the evidence that was presented at trial.

I am not saying that we will never know, oh quick to judge one, I am simply saying that it might be better to hear all the evidence that both sides will present first hmmm?

So... we should simply tell the press, TV, radio to stop discussing this and every other type of crime until the actual trial has concluded?

Come on man.. doesn't happen that way.

[GSLeloo]

They said they won't release her name because she's already had people threaten to kill her because she's accusing Koby Bryant. I love the fact that everyone attacks her and focus on her. Say she had a boyfriend and slept with him three times. Say she was the only one on duty and had to bring him room service or whatever else he wanted when he called, thought it was cool to make out with a celebrity but when push came to shove, decided she didn't want to. Because he is a celebrity, most people will go "She's just a whore that wants his money." Sorry, it's not always just that, some guys are just that sick.

[theotherjohn]

I was going to stay out of this but...

who cares? this shit is not national news and should not be part of national telecasts except for entertainment shows and maybe a very small part of sports shows

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by theotherjohn
I was going to stay out of this but...

who cares? this shit is not national news and should not be part of national telecasts except for entertainment shows and maybe a very small part of sports shows

I've seen it on Fox News, CNN, BBC, NBC, etc...

So... how can you say it's not national news?

[theotherjohn]

its not news.

its all about ratings. lets see what sensational crap we can throw out to the "sheep" so they watch us.

[GSLeloo]

Because if we don't talk about this, what can we talk about? Hmm.. more dead in iraq today, now Bush wants us to go to war here, these have nuclear weapons aimed at us.... yeah, very pleasant.

[imported_Kranar]

It's like Natural Born Killers, or heck just Bowling for Columbine.

The U.S. is obsessed with crime, and will go to any length to sensationalize it, and milk it for all its worth.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Because if we don't talk about this, what can we talk about? Hmm.. more dead in iraq today, now Bush wants us to go to war here, these have nuclear weapons aimed at us.... yeah, very pleasant.

talk about China's space program or the Bush iniatives on making Cuba democratic and free

or

dont let me hijack this thread and continue as you were :)

[GSLeloo]

And before we do, it's not Bush making Cuba free.. it's Bush doing another Iraq a little closer to home.

[theotherjohn]

or talk about how people said Rush must be on drugs because of all the stupid shit he was saying....

well turned out he was