Problems I see with the Player's Corner.

[SpunGirl]

I enjoy the PC and have enjoyed posting here for almost three years. I enjoy these boards more than the main boards, and I enjoy talking to people I may not have known unless I had started posting here in the first place.

That said, I feel that there are problems serious enough to post about. I don't think I have ever once made a "these boards suck" post, and that's not what this is intended to be. It IS intended to be a bit of an attention-grabber to the staff and some other members. And whether they choose to voice their opinions or not, I know there are staff members and regular posters alike that agree with some or all of these sentiments.

First, it has come to my attention that a staff member was giving out IP addresses to a poster. Why this staff member wasn't immediately pwnd for this bullshit, I don't know. Dude, I dig you, but that's pretty fucked up. It's also pretty fucked up that it was kept all hush-hush and no one ever said anything about it to the rest of us.

Second, I find it sad that we have decent moderators who are quitting. Tijay quit, and he was good at his job. Maybe he'll tell us WHY he quit, until then, I have my own suspicions that I won't voice. Weedmage left us a long time ago. I know of two other mods who are on the verge of quitting that are GOOD mods. This is bullshit. Administrators, please do a better job of keeping your quality staff around. If this means getting rid of staff members that make the GOOD staff blush with shame at the association, then GET RID OF THEM.

That's all I have to say for now.

-K

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by SpunGirl]

[FinisWolf]

Duly noted...

I wish you had proof on the IP thing, its not a big deal, but it really really could be. Thats enough to have some serious identity problems and security problems. Whoever this was, needs to be removed.

We agreed to trust our staff, we did not agree that staff should abuse their power and potentially put us at risk.

Finis

[SpunGirl]

You're right on the proof, Finis. I don't have a shred except for what I heard from someone I trust implicitly. HN knows about it, and she could deny it, but I don't think she'd flat-out deny something she knows to be true.

-K

[Tisket]

I can't for the life of me think of a mod that would make the other mods blush with shame. Well there is the one that's so totally into himself and all things to do with himself that I simply skip his posts rather than risk a gag reflex.

[Drew]

Preach on SpunGirl. Some of the mods on here should never have become mods in the first place.

[Drew2]

Originally posted by Drew
Preach on SpunGirl. Some of the mods on here should never have become mods in the first place.

If by "Some of the mods" you mean "Soulpieced and Peam", then yes.

[Drew]

I was a mod here "way back when", so I speak from personal experience on this board. I just think that if you take on the responsibility, you ought to represent yourself and the board in the best manner possible.

[Alfster]

Wezas is mean to me.

Ban him.

[SpunGirl]

Wezas falls into my personal "good moderators" category.

-K

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Taken individually I like all the mods. As mods, there are a few who shouldn't be, especially given a few bad decisions like the IP incident or post topics.

I think we should do like thunderdome; Two man enter, one man leave, with a few of them.

[FinisWolf]

Originally posted by Alfster
Wezas is mean to me.

Ban him.

Wezas is a guy? :?: OMFG, I had no idea. Sorry Wezas. :blush:

Finis

[Brattt8525]

I admittedly know very little about computers and security so if someone is/was giving out IP addresses what could someone do with said IP addresses?

There is only one mod who I think needs to tone down or leave the position of Mod.

[TheRoseLady]

Let's hope that your concern doesn't meet with the same sort of bullshit that I received when I posted a "general" concern and didn't name mods. I was basically ripped up and told that because I had an issue with "one mod" that it should have been taken to U2U.

This should be rather interesting.

[SpunGirl]

"If you think that you are a bit more important than you really are, then I am likely directing this at you."

Direct quote from the thread TRL is referencing above.

This is different in a few ways. One, because it is something of a laundry list of generalized complaints, not an issue with the tone someone took in moderating a topic (and I flatter myself to think it's a tad more serious than that). Two, because one of my complaints involves a specific incident that the membership was not informed about, and I felt they should be. Thusly, u2u doesn't make sense here unless I was planning to u2u the entire membership list.

I have hope for the same thing you mentioned, TRL.

-K

[Asha]

Spun won't be torn up becouse of her post.
It's the absolute truth and therefore I can imagine a united front when anyone eventually tries to beat her thoughts down.

This does mean Tijay can still tear out my eyes when I post doesn't it?
Also , I agree with Tayre.

[SpunGirl]

Thanks, Drayal. I'm sure there are people that will disagree, which is fine. I just thought it was important enough to put out there.

-K

[Parkbandit]

Leave the boards for a couple days and THIS is what I have to come back to?

I'm lost... and it makes me sad. Lemme catch up.

[imported_Kranar]

Plenty of staff members have come and gone over the years. Some because they're too busy to be on staff, and others because they got discouraged and fed up with being a staff member. It's pretty poor of me, however, to start kicking out some staff members so that other staff members can stick around. We all make an agreement to accept a staff member, that's an agreement we can't just turn our backs on when we decide we don't like another staff member or we don't like how things are going.

<< First, it has come to my attention that a staff member was giving out IP addresses to a poster. >>

It came to my attention awhile ago as well. The problem is that I heard it was two staff members, Artha and Soulpieced. But that's all I heard of it. No substantiation whatsoever. Just a rumour that two staff members who for all I know might not be liked by someone, gave out I.P. addresses. When I looked into it, I found no evidence whatsoever. I don't know who the addresses were given out to, I don't know why they were given out, I don't know how anyone seems to even know about this. So it remained a rumour and I'm not about to start acting on rumours.

That's also another problem of course with complaints and accusations in general. The accusations themselves are vague and ambiguous, but the punishments they demand are severe and serious.

<< Let's hope that your concern doesn't meet with the same sort of bullshit that I received when I posted a "general" concern and didn't name mods. I was basically ripped up and told that because I had an issue with "one mod" that it should have been taken to U2U. >>

If you know of a staff member who broke a rule, or have a complaint, you're more than welcome to post it in here. If anyone rips you apart for it, then that's their problem but believe me when I say I will never rip you apart for making any type of harsh, direct, or blunt criticism of anyone including myself in this forum. Infact, admittedly the times when changes have occured on the forums the most was when complaints were voiced loud, harsh, and blunt publically. It might not be the most polite way, but in the past it has led to the most significant results.

So if you know anything about this, say it in here. I've heard bits and pieces of this I.P. rumour but nothing to back it up. Maybe if it's publically discussed more of the picture will surface.

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Kranar]

[Ilvane]

It's nice to have people have concerns, and I think this folder is great for a good discussion.

I know a couple of people have a problem with the way I mod(or the lack of moderation), but I don't really have busy topics. I would hope, however, if someone had a problem with me as a moderator that they would come directly to me rather than post a bad post about me, or talk behind my back.

I love being a mod here for many reasons. One of my biggest reasing for wanting to be one was because I wanted to make PC a well read board, and have it not be associated with mean spirited or angry to the point of crazyness posts.

Anyway, just thought I'd add my two cents.;)

-A

[Asha]

As far as I'm concerned, you're exactly how I imagine a mod to be, Ilvane.
Infact you probably work twice as much as the dicks who're too busy powertripping, posting demented shit, starting hurtful threads and wearing stupid hats.
:heart:

[Leetahkin]

What I'm confused about is why someone would want another's IP address/what they can do with that information.

I have, on Livejournal, the option of saving a person's IP address if they respond to my journal anonymously. I wouldn't know the first thing to do with it though, if I received one.

[imported_Kranar]

There's no security concern with I.P. addresses. The reason why we don't allow for staff to hand out I.P. addresses is more of a privacy issue on this forum rather than a security issue.

Every member is entitled to their real life privacy, in that if someone wants to be on here anonymously, without anyone having a clue who they are in real life, they're entitled to that. Knowing someone's I.P. address breaches that level of privacy, and that's why we don't allow for that information to be disclosed. But knowing someone's address doesn't in anyway put them in any sort of security risk.

No one should get the idea that staff knowing someone's address puts their computer in danger or themselves in danger. What it does do, however, is make it easier to find out who that person is linked to, i.e. who else they post as, what internet connection they use, and probably the most dangerous of all, what city they live in.

[radamanthys]

IP...Port Scan...Brute Force/DoS/Buffer Overflow...Got Root? Computer Pwned.

With some of the older machines that are being used out there- I know some people run OSes like 98 and ME, there's definate security concerns. Especially with so many people with excellent computer skills on here/out there. I have a passworded FTP open, and with a bit of brute-force, you could get in. We've already had two attacks on the network.

I wouldn't want mine given out. Security and privacy are both an issue.

[FinisWolf]

Originally posted by radamanthys
IP...Port Scan...Brute Force/DoS/Buffer Overflow...Got Root? Computer Pwned.

With some of the older machines that are being used out there- I know some people run OSes like 98 and ME, there's definate security concerns. Especially with so many people with excellent computer skills on here/out there. I have a passworded FTP open, and with a bit of brute-force, you could get in. We've already had two attacks on the network.

I wouldn't want mine given out. Security and privacy are both an issue.

Extremely and very true. It is both a security and privacy issue. I realize of course, if someone wants to hack, then they will hack, but handing out IP's is just an additional worry, one that in my opinion, should not be happening.

Finis

[imported_Kranar]

72.136.62.96

That's my permanent I.P. address. I'll pay you money if you manage to hack it. I don't have a firewall, I have an FTP server running on port 21, I leave MSN running up most of the time, along with Bittorrent, KaZaA, Winamp, and a slew of other programs that all have ports open.

You hack it, grab any kind of info that presents a security concern, post up here for all to see.

The bottom line is that A) having I.P. addresses is by no means a security risk, and B) getting an I.P. address is so incredibly easy. Knowing someone's e-mail address or their AIM name is probably a more threatening piece of information to someone who wants to cause harm.

[Asha]

Give me 3 minuts, Kranar.

[Wezas]

Doesn't Skirmisher have Win 98?

I really don't have much to say on this topic. It's the first I've heard of the IP issue. The only time I look at IP is when I'm trying to confirm if a new poster is actually an old banned poster. And of course trying to pinpoint Jesae's exact address.

I understand Kranar's rationale for not going the "need of the one vs. needs of the many" route. I think a line needs to be drawn for whomever the majority of the staff thinks is an issue. Hopefully that line won't be crossed and we can all live in harmony.

Except Alfster.

[imported_Kranar]

Drayal, it's been 3 minutes.

Since I notice you're doing a port scan, how about I save you the trouble of scanning all 65535 ports on my computer and just list every single port that's open right now:

Active Connections

Proto Local Address Foreign Address State
TCP dell:ftp dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:epmap dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:microsoft-ds dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:2401 dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:2869 dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:1025 dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:1032 dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:1033 dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:2402 dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:2869 localhost:4891 ESTABLISHED
TCP dell:4891 localhost:2869 ESTABLISHED
TCP dell:netbios-ssn dell:0 LISTENING
TCP dell:1491 baym-cs260.msgr.hotmail.com:1863 ESTABLISHED
TCP dell:4775 a209-202-96-216.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com:ht
tp ESTABLISHED
TCP dell:4776 207.245.46.211:http CLOSE_WAIT
TCP dell:4778 secdev.globefund.com:http CLOSE_WAIT
TCP dell:4872 168-226-138-57.speedy.com.ar:11850 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4875 dh79-87.xnet.hr:18536 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4881 CPE000ea66c2bd8-CM000e5c70a2ba.cpe.net.cable.rog
ers.com:6881 FIN_WAIT_1
TCP dell:4888 toronto-HSE-ppp4112423.sympatico.ca:50000 TIME_
WAIT
TCP dell:4901 bb219-74-242-193.singnet.com.sg:55533 FIN_WAIT_
1
TCP dell:4903 71-208-64-222.hlrn.qwest.net:6883 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4907 87.68.1.244.cable.012.net.il:6889 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4920 hometown1-dr1-apach.ht.aol.com:http ESTABLISHED

TCP dell:4921 iconhell.com:http ESTABLISHED
TCP dell:4922 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4923 redirect-v01.blue.aol.com:http ESTABLISHED
TCP dell:4924 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4926 members.cox.net:http ESTABLISHED
TCP dell:4927 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4929 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4931 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4932 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4933 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4937 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4939 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4941 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4942 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4943 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4945 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4947 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4949 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4950 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4951 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4952 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4954 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4955 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4956 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4957 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4958 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4959 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4960 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4961 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4962 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4963 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4964 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4966 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4967 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4968 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4970 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4971 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4973 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4979 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4980 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4981 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4982 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4983 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4984 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4985 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4986 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4987 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4988 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4990 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4992 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4993 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4994 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4996 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:4997 gravity.dnsprotect.com:http TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:26981 60-240-75-122-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au:1110 TIME_W
AIT
TCP dell:26981 CPE0050da25215e-CM014090212490.cpe.net.cable.rog
ers.com:4915 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:26981 unregister049207219081.c207.msk.pl:4142 TIME_WA
IT
TCP dell:26981 unregister049207219081.c207.msk.pl:4143 TIME_WA
IT
TCP dell:26981 82-170-246-179.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl:3740 TIME_WAIT

TCP dell:26981 host97-164.pool871.interbusiness.it:2121 TIME_W
AIT
TCP dell:26981 host97-164.pool871.interbusiness.it:2123 TIME_W
AIT
TCP dell:26981 196.202.90.137:17697 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:26981 pc236.telecentro.com.ar:61539 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:26981 201-25-240-129.bnut3702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br
:65123 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:26981 cl-lnx-vevygw-sv.blue4.cz:1183 TIME_WAIT
TCP dell:26981 cl-lnx-vevygw-sv.blue4.cz:1189 TIME_WAIT
UDP dell:microsoft-ds *:*
UDP dell:isakmp *:*
UDP dell:1026 *:*
UDP dell:1035 *:*
UDP dell:1055 *:*
UDP dell:1056 *:*
UDP dell:1147 *:*
UDP dell:1148 *:*
UDP dell:1149 *:*
UDP dell:1263 *:*
UDP dell:1497 *:*
UDP dell:4500 *:*
UDP dell:ntp *:*
UDP dell:1037 *:*
UDP dell:1492 *:*
UDP dell:1502 *:*
UDP dell:1900 *:*
UDP dell:2565 *:*
UDP dell:3684 *:*
UDP dell:discard *:*
UDP dell:ntp *:*
UDP dell:netbios-ns *:*
UDP dell:netbios-dgm *:*
UDP dell:1900 *:*
UDP dell:58124 *:*

[Wezas]

yeah, that deserves an Arkans...

FUCKING PWNED!!!!1111oneoneone

[imported_Kranar]

Anyhow, to keep things back in focus. I still would appreciate any concrete information on who has leaking out I.P. addresses. You don't need proof, just things like how you know this, who did it, basic stuff that's a little more concrete than "I know Artha gave out I.P. addresses. The End."

Even though they are not a security risk, it is a privacy risk, and as such it is against the rules for any staff member to hand them out.

I just don't want people getting the impression that if their I.P. address gets out their computer is at a serious risk. It's not, but it does break a principle about trust and integrity amongst staff which is also serious.

[radamanthys]

I did the portscan. 21 and 2401 were open, FTP and cvspserver, respectively.

You've also started working to protect your system in the last few minutes. I don't blame you. THAT is why I don't want my IP given out, becuase of that fear right there.

I'm not trying to fight, I just think it's shady is all. I mean, better safe than sorry, right?

[radamanthys]

Good point, Kranar.

I think we all appreciate being pro-active on this, regardless of security vs. privacy on an IP. It's off-topic, anyway.

Sorry if I sounded hostile, I really didn't mean for it to sound that way, honest! :-)

[Sean]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Second, I find it sad that we have decent moderators who are quitting. Tijay quit, and he was good at his job. Maybe he'll tell us WHY he quit, until then, I have my own suspicions that I won't voice.

Speaking only for myself here because I in no way want to discourage people from joining staff these are just my personal feeling towards why I stepped down...

Honestly after awhile I just get sick of having to read a lot of the threads I wasn't interested in. And when you don't want to read the things people are posting the PC because less and less interesting if you have to do it. That and I found I disagreed with a fair of the policy I was enforcing but at the same time I understood why they were in place. So instead of trying to create an uprising or change the status quo I figured with the hiring of new mods I was given the chance to step down and let someone who felt more in tune with the policy do the job and probably do it better than I was because they cared.

Basically it comes down to I have a job and when I came to the PC and started feeling like I had to babysit certain peoples fragile emotions or they'd cry was starting to feel like another job. Another job that it was no longer fun doing.

PS: If I clawed out your eyes Drayal I couldn't watch you cry and now that your not my responsibilty anymore it's so much more fun to look back and laugh at you.

[HarmNone]

I am in agreement with Kranar. The IP incident happened a looong time ago. I was a supermoderator at the time, if I remember correctly. I'm not going to say I'm happy it happened. I'm not; however, there was (to my knowledge) never any absolute proof of who gave out the IP address. Would you want someone acting against you based on an unproven rumor? Somehow, I doubt it. I know I wouldn't.

As to some mods "that make good mods blush with shame", I think I know to whom this refers. Based on that assumption, let me say this: Anyone, no matter who it is, deserves the opportunity to make a mistake and to explain themselves and be given the opportunity not to make that kind of mistake again. We all have good days and bad days. None of us is perfect, mod or poster. I, for one, will speak to any moderator whom I feel is acting outside the interests of the boards. That moderator might have something going on that we don't know about...something that effects their feelings or actions for a temporary period. Is there anyone here who has never had such a problem? Again, I doubt it.

I've certainly got no problem with people voicing their discontent. In fact, I'm glad to see it. Yet, I think we all need to keep in mind that none of us knows the whole of any subject until we take the time, and make the effort, to look into it completely. Knowing only part of a problem, and acting based on that partial information, is the best way I can think of to make a wrong decision.

Personally, I prefer to take the time to thoroughly investigate an issue, and to give anyone involved the opportunity to make things right, before I take action. It may be slow, guys, but it's fair. That's important to me.

[Asha]

I never caused anything which made you have to delete/scold or do your job in anyway.
I was frankly supprised by the level of harshness in your posts, man.
Anyhow, I hope you you're happy now you've unhooked yourself from something you were not enjoying.
And more than that, I hope you have an excellent birthday.

:birthday:




And then I hope you shit yourself in public.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Drayal
I never caused anything which made you have to delete/scold or do your job in anyway.

Well then obviously the part of my post that wasn't directly in response to you wasn't about you. You really think I'd step down because of you? Laughable.

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Tijay]

[Leetahkin]

I have a complaint. Sometimes when I report a post, I get bitched at for listing a reason, and told not to. Recently I've been getting bitched at for NOT listing a reason, and told I best add one.

MODs need to be on the same page, instead of some telling you to list one, and some telling you not to. I'm not going to sit there and memorize MOD names and their individual preferences.

[Asha]

Originally posted by Tijay

Originally posted by Drayal
I never caused anything which made you have to delete/scold or do your job in anyway.

Well then obviously the part of my post that wasn't directly in response to wasn't about you. You really think I'd step down because of you? Laughable.

No dickhead.
That was me replying to you saying you were responsible for me.
You just made <<'' You really think I'd step down because of you? Laughable ''>> that up.

[Alfster]

Originally posted by Nobody Cares
I have a complaint. Sometimes when I report a post, I get bitched at for listing a reason, and told not to. Recently I've been getting bitched at for NOT listing a reason, and told I best add one.

MODs need to be on the same page, instead of some telling you to list one, and some telling you not to. I'm not going to sit there and memorize MOD names and their individual preferences.

Or ya know, ya could stop reporting things so much. You have left here, what, twice now?

:pig:

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Nobody Cares
I have a complaint. Sometimes when I report a post, I get bitched at for listing a reason, and told not to. Recently I've been getting bitched at for NOT listing a reason, and told I best add one.

MODs need to be on the same page, instead of some telling you to list one, and some telling you not to. I'm not going to sit there and memorize MOD names and their individual preferences.

I'll name names. Me.

I asked for you to supply a reason. Mainly because I thought your requests would likely not be successful and I thought if you explained yourself you would have a better chance of getting what you wanted.

That's no joke. I wanted your opinion as to why you reported the post and what rules you think it was violating.

As for other mods having differing opinions, I'll bring it up in the mod section and get people's input. Thank you for bringing the issue to light.

[HarmNone]

The option to list a reason for reporting the post is there. Whether or not to do so is up to the individual reporting the post. I, for one, prefer to see a reason as it gives me something to go on when reading the reported post and helps to ensure I don't miss something. However, there is no absolute rule that you "must" or "must not" include a reason when reporting a post.

Hope that helps. :)

[HarmNone]

Sitting here, reading this thread, I had to chuckle just a bit at the realization that we're never going to be able to please everyone, no matter what we do. There will be those who want things one way and those who want them another. The best we can do is try to strike a happy medium. That's what we try to do. Threads like this one are a great indicator of how we're doing, and certainly give us a heads up in that regard.

Thanks, Spun, for bringing this here so we can all discuss our feelings on how things are going. :)

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I am in agreement with Kranar. The IP incident happened a looong time ago. I was a supermoderator at the time, if I remember correctly. I'm not going to say I'm happy it happened. I'm not; however, there was (to my knowledge) never any absolute proof of who gave out the IP address. Would you want someone acting against you based on an unproven rumor? Somehow, I doubt it. I know I wouldn't.

Those responsible for enforcing the rules need to be seen to be "whiter than white" in terms of following the rules they are enforcing.

While you say there was no evidence of any wrongdoing, the fact that there are rumours that something happened is enough to undermine any feelings of confidence as to the integrity of the staff.

Just to add, I know nothing of the incident in question, but it seems as though it was a case of "I dun see it so it dun exist".


As to some mods "that make good mods blush with shame", I think I know to whom this refers. Based on that assumption, let me say this: Anyone, no matter who it is, deserves the opportunity to make a mistake and to explain themselves and be given the opportunity not to make that kind of mistake again. We all have good days and bad days. None of us is perfect, mod or poster. I, for one, will speak to any moderator whom I feel is acting outside the interests of the boards. That moderator might have something going on that we don't know about...something that effects their feelings or actions for a temporary period. Is there anyone here who has never had such a problem? Again, I doubt it.

All this is true, but for a period of time, there were a number of mods that were acting as if they were the dogs bollocks. A number of dickheads (unfortunately) chose to highlight their problems but because of the deranged way they went about it, the mods showed their solidarity and rubbished it all.

Now no-one hated Dave and Toj and the other dicks that joined in with their shit more than me, but the one thing that made me uncomfortable in that whole affair was that there was some truth in what they were saying (even if they said it in the most stupid of ways).

There was a period of ridiculous censorship and ego-tripping and that kind of shit reflects badly on everyone. That is the kind of thing that needs dealing with in a way so that everyone sees the rules are being applied across the board.

When Peam trolls threads throwing mindless comments and insults around "because he can", and others are getting censored for it, people are going to think its all a pile of dogshit.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Drayal
No dickhead.
That was me replying to you saying you were responsible for me.
You just made <<'' You really think I'd step down because of you? Laughable ''>> that up.

[EDITED MY POST OUT OF SUPER COOL NICENESS]

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Tijay]

[HarmNone]

>>Just to add, I know nothing of the incident in question, but it seems as though it was a case of "I dun see it so it dun exist". <<

The key in this statement, hon, is that you really do know nothing of the incident in question. Kranar knew very little, other than that an IP address was given out. He didn't know who gave it out. What was he to do, fire everyone? Believe me, I was here. It was not a case of "I dun see it so it dun exist." In fact, it prompted a post, by me, in the moderators' folder about the responsibilities of being a moderator. Since that time, there have been no further incidences, of which I have been informed, of such breaches of privacy. That would seem to indicate that what we did worked.

>>While you say there was no evidence of any wrongdoing, the fact that there are rumours that something happened is enough to undermine any feelings of confidence as to the integrity of the staff.<<

Where, in my post, did I say there was no evidence of wrongdoing? What I said was that there was no evidence of WHO done it. There's a difference between knowing something was done and knowing who was responsible. It's an important difference.

[HarmNone]

>>..You've also started working to protect your system in the last few minutes. I don't blame you. THAT is why I don't want my IP given out, becuase of that fear right there.

I'm not trying to fight, I just think it's shady is all. I mean, better safe than sorry, right?<<

I don't want my IP given out either, hon. However, when there's no way to know for sure who gave it out, should we just start getting rid of those some people don't like, or those people "suspect" (for whatever reason), without any proof that they're guilty of having given out an IP? Sounds like a good way of taking the risk of targetting and punishing the wrong person to me.

[Asha]

Since my U2U isn't working, you think we can let this go now, and just ignore eachother, Tijay?
I'd really like that.

[HarmNone]

I think that's a really good idea, Drayal; especially, in this thread. :)

[Shalla]

I'm not very technical, but the only reason I could think of for someone asking and giving out someone's IP information to someone else is to cause the owner trouble. Even, finding out where the person lives through IP is suspicious and an invasion of privacy that this forum should not tolerate, nor be associated with. If you want to know where someome lives, simply ask them. If they do not wish to disclose it, and you're still adamant about it. Then you are obviously up to no good. Even if the idea of causing trouble through IP is futile. There is still an attempt to cause mischief. I believe that itself is an offense.

I don't mean to be out of topic, but since this was posted here..

The only time I look at IP is when I'm trying to confirm if a new poster is actually an old banned poster. And of course trying to pinpoint Jesae's exact address. -Wezas

I've been seeing this Wezas & Jesae thing for months now, and I've always ignored it thinking it was a joke. It's a joke right? This is too ridiculous to be true. ( no offence Wezas ) Given, Jesae is hot but is this like pretend obsession? It's edging very closely to Yswithe & Jihnna caliber of obsession. :weird:

p.s Unless of course you wish to keep it private. Then we'll just assume. :P

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Shalla
I've been seeing this Wezas & Jesae thing for months now, and I've always ignored it thinking it was a joke. It's a joke right? This is too ridiculous to be true. ( no offence Wezas ) Given, Jesae is hot but is this like pretend obsession? It's edging very closely to Yswithe & Jihnna caliber of obsession. :weird:


Yes, it's a joke. I've never looked up her IP and I just think she is a very pretty girl with a great personality. The Jesae comments have actually calmed down recently, but I thought it was a good opportunity for a comment when talking about IP's/knowing someone's location.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by HarmNone
>>Just to add, I know nothing of the incident in question, but it seems as though it was a case of "I dun see it so it dun exist". <<

The key in this statement, hon, is that you really do know nothing of the incident in question. Kranar knew very little, other than that an IP address was given out. He didn't know who gave it out. What was he to do, fire everyone? Believe me, I was here. It was not a case of "I dun see it so it dun exist." In fact, it prompted a post, by me, in the moderators' folder about the responsibilities of being a moderator. Since that time, there have been no further incidences, of which I have been informed, of such breaches of privacy. That would seem to indicate that what we did worked.

Prime example of the defensiveness that people often experience when questioning the goings on of the moderators.

Kranar posted in this very thread "The problem is that I heard it was two staff members, Artha and Soulpieced. But that's all I heard of it. No substantiation whatsoever. Just a rumour that two staff members who for all I know might not be liked by someone, gave out I.P. addresses. When I looked into it, I found no evidence whatsoever. " so in fact it was a case of I have no evidence therefore I shall do nothing.

What should have happened? Perhaps a little more investigation? A little more than "please dont do this"? I dont really know...I dont care much more either. But if someone was suspected of stealing from their boss, or behaving in a manner unbecoming of their post, I would imagine there would be a little more investigation that a notice or email reminding staff to keep their fingers out of the till.


>>While you say there was no evidence of any wrongdoing, the fact that there are rumours that something happened is enough to undermine any feelings of confidence as to the integrity of the staff.<<

Where, in my post, did I say there was no evidence of wrongdoing? What I said was that there was no evidence of WHO done it. There's a difference between knowing something was done and knowing who was responsible. It's an important difference.

Yeah, my mistake...I mixed up your sentiments with Kranar's.

The point still stands, however.

[radamanthys]

Jeeze, being a mod must be hard!

I was just arguing my stance that security IS a problem with IP addys. I don't really care who did what and why they did it. That's up for you people who run the place to deal with. However you do it, and if you do it, is up to you. If theres no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, then they walk. No use banning someone over something like that.

You do a good job, HN. You're fair, and honest and keep a good head about ya. This place would be a landfill without good mods. Props to that.

[HarmNone]

>>What should have happened? Perhaps a little more investigation? <<

Thing is, Nieninque, you have no idea how much investigation Kranar did into this incident. Knowing Kranar, I'd say he did quite a bit of investigation. It's just his way. However, if that investigation didn't lead to some proof of who done what to whom, it would be wrong (in my opinion) to just start removing moderators willy-nilly, hoping to get the one responsible.

No defensiveness from me, and it's my post you quoted. I wasn't the one involved at the time, so I have nothing to defend. I'm just stating what I feel is the truth, and what I feel is fair to all concerned.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by radamanthys
Jeeze, being a mod must be hard!

I was just arguing my stance that security IS a problem with IP addys. I don't really care who did what and why they did it. That's up for you people who run the place to deal with. However you do it, and if you do it, is up to you. If theres no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, then they walk. No use banning someone over something like that.

You do a good job, HN. You're fair, and honest and keep a good head about ya. This place would be a landfill without good mods. Props to that.

Thanks, hon. I appreciate your support, as do all of our moderators. Being a moderator ISN'T easy if you really make an effort to do your job correctly, and to keep in mind that everyone is an individual and nobody is on their best behavior every minute of every day.

[Shalla]

From my own personal experience. Not that I wish to bring up the incident, Kranar does investigate and try to keep everything in order. I'm sure if there is more evidence and the affected party would speak up to give proof to this accusation, he would do something about it. I think it really depends on the extremity of the situation. I also think that something should be done at least to assure the posters here of their IP's security and privacy.

[SpunGirl]

I think HN and Kranar both do a good job 99.999% of the time, but as HN said, no one is going to get to have it all their way. With regards to the IP incident, I do have an understanding of who they were given to, but I would rather not post his name here. I'll u2u it instead.

I think the biggest issue I have with that is that we, the membership, were not informed. "Hey guys, IP addresses were given out. We know it happened, but not whodunit. If this bothers you we encourage you to protect your computer bla bla." Yes, people would have been irritated, including myself. But not as irritated as I was to have found out about the incident much later and realize nothing was done to let us know about it.

I understand what you're saying about letting people go through their stages, HN. Goodness knows we've all had them. I do have to wonder at what point we stop being tolerant of someone's "stage." I think you would eventually have to consider the sanity over the boards over that person's need to vent their angst over whatever, and I'm sure you WILL, or have. I suppose there are just different levels of tolerance for all of us.

-K

[Leetahkin]

There are definitely differing opinions around here concerning privacy. From what I'm understanding, if I IM someone my full name, address, phone number, they have every right to post said IM on these boards without me being able to have it removed.

"What you say through IMs, or in-game, or on message boards, or elsewhere on the internet is NOT covered by privacy laws, nor is it covered by our TOS."

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Nobody Cares]

[HarmNone]

Your full name, address and phone number would be removed. That's just TMI. However, whether we would get the opportunity to remove it before anyone saw it is questionable. That's why it's a good idea to take measures to protect yourself before the fact, not after the fact. ;)

[HarmNone]

>>I understand what you're saying about letting people go through their stages, HN. Goodness knows we've all had them. I do have to wonder at what point we stop being tolerant of someone's "stage." I think you would eventually have to consider the sanity over the boards over that person's need to vent their angst over whatever, and I'm sure you WILL, or have. I suppose there are just different levels of tolerance for all of us. <<

Hee! Yeah, we do have different levels of tolerance. I admit, I'm a pretty tolerant person, most of the time. I do, however, have my limits. I feel very strongly about the issue of fairness, however, and feel that anybody should be given the opportunity to correct disruptive behavior before being summarily "executed". I try to give that opportunity to posters, as well. It's what I'd hope someone would do for me. :)

[xtc]

Kranar I think there are privacy and security concerns. Have you asked Soulpiece and Artha if they have done it? If you believe they did this, I think it would be prudent to remove them as moderators.

The lawyers here can probably know more than me but there maybe legal issues as well. In England the Data Protection Act may cover IP addresses. If an IP address is consider personal information than Canada's Privacy Act would come into play.

Kranar are you giving us permission for people to hack your system? I wouldn't want to do anything illegal.

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by xtc]

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by xtc]

[Asha]

Originally posted by xtc
Kranar are you giving us permission for people to hack your system? I wouldn't want to do anything illegal.

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by xtc]

Already tried.
I put the IP address into AOL search engine, then went to make toast.
When I got back nothing had happened, it's unbreakable.

[Hulkein]

<< When Peam trolls threads throwing mindless comments and insults around "because he can", and others are getting censored for it, people are going to think its all a pile of dogshit. >>

I've posted my fair share of pointless shit and have never been censored, so I don't know if it's an issue with Peam being a mod as opposed to TOJ just being over-the-top with his shit.

[Nieninque]

Geez, Hulkein...please dont see that comment as any kind of justification or defence of Toj's bs.
He is/was a somplete and utter waste of space and one word from him is generally one too many.

But there were other people who posted stuff no worse than what Peam posts, but were getting censored for it. It's about not just doing the right thing, but being seen to do the right thing. When it appears things are uneven or unequal, people are going to lose confidence in the "powers that be" (and yes I know its a message board, who cares...?)

HN, I posted a nice little response to your last post to me but it didnt work, and Spun kinda hit the nail on the head...in that it was just left at rumour. No apparent resolution...and when you are talking about the possibility for security and privacy breaches, that's a little more serious than having a post removed for trolling.

XTC the data protection act doesnt cover IP addresses.

And I am not having a dig at HN, Kranar or the mods in general, just voicing a difference of opinion about some of the goings on. That is all.

[Hulkein]

Come clean Nien... You fantasize about Dave, TOJ and yourself together on a week long cruise ship.

[HarmNone]

I don't deny that the giving out of IP addresses is a matter for serious concern. Believe me, at the time it happened we were very seriously concerned. Action was taken, however inadequate some of you might consider it to have been, and there has been no report of such a breach since that time. Considering the length of time that has passed, I think that indicates some success.

While I understand your concern about moderators you feel post disruptive posts/threads, I still stand on my original statement. Everybody can have a bad day, or a bad series of days, and everybody deserves a chance to make things right. I will continue to allow that for anybody, moderator or poster. To me, it's the right thing to do. I should add that you have no knowlege of what might be going on "behind the scenes" with regard to issues like this, any more than the whole of the boards knows when one of us might contact you, or anybody else, with a request to tone things down a bit. I think that's as it should be.

[Nieninque]

That would break the trades descriptions act if sold as a fantasy

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Come clean Nien... You fantasize about Dave, TOJ and yourself together on a week long cruise ship.

If such a thing were ever to occur, I DON'T want to be on that cruise ship! :scared:

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Come clean Nien... You fantasize about Dave, TOJ and yourself together on a week long cruise ship.

Yeah... with a hacksaw.

-K

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Hulkein
Come clean Nien... You fantasize about Dave, TOJ and yourself together on a week long cruise ship.

Yeah... with a hacksaw.

-K

Precisely why I don't want to be on that cruise ship! What a bloody mess that would be! :lol:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
What was he to do, fire everyone?The solution to this and every predicament is to Ban Wezas.
Since that time, there have been no further incidences, of which I have been informed, of such breaches of privacy. That would seem to indicate that what we did worked.While we're on the topic... how is that not "I don't see it, so it doesn't exist"?

With the exception of Methais' treatment and that time Tsa`ah went extra crazy, I can't make any serious complaints about the moderation.

[HarmNone]

>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since that time, there have been no further incidences, of which I have been informed, of such breaches of privacy. That would seem to indicate that what we did worked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While we're on the topic... how is that not "I don't see it, so it doesn't exist"? <<

Well, we can't act on what we don't know and we can't know everything. If someone's IP has been given out, I'd expect that person to let us know, as happened in the original situation. Now, if you want people removed as moderators on the possibility that somebody's IP address might have been given out but nobody knows about it...well, I don't quite know what to tell you.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Hulkein
Come clean Nien... You fantasize about Dave, TOJ and yourself together on a week long cruise ship.

Yeah... with a hacksaw.

-K

No, just my swingset set up in a two man formation.

[imported_Kranar]

I'd really like to, at first, get to the bottom of the I.P. address issue since that kind of thing is a serious breach of staff policy.

To my knowledge, the only reason Artha and Soulpieced were suspected of any involvement was that first... a rumour floated around that staff members were handing out I.P. addresses even though who specifically was unknown. Then as a result of some AIM conversations people were having, Artha and Soulpieced were the two people suspected of doing it and then people started filling in the gaps afterwards.

So in other words... a rumour started, then people found reasons to believe and justify that rumour. All I'd like to know is this: who were these addresses given out to? Whose I.P. address was given out? Who gave out these addresses? How is any of this information known?

[HarmNone]

I've given you the information I have in U2U, Kranar. :)

[SpunGirl]

I'd still like to know that if you knew someone's IP address had been given out (but not by which staff member specificially), why the membership wasn't advised of this kind of breach. I think that, more than anything else, bothers me. If it happened once, it could happen again. In addition, making an "FYI" post of some sort could have been a good way to get some extra information.

-K

[Brattt8525]

It is rather scarey to think someone got your IP and no one bothered to tell you, or at the very least just make a general post about securing our computers or whatever you do to protect yourself. Hehe not like I would know what to do but I could always call the Qeek Squad to have them race here to fix it.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
It is rather scarey to think someone got your IP and no one bothered to tell you, or at the very least just make a general post about securing our computers or whatever you do to protect yourself. Hehe not like I would know what to do but I could always call the Qeek Squad to have them race here to fix it.

The person whose IP address was comprimised DID know. That person is the one who let US know.

[Tisket]

Every member is entitled to their real life privacy, in that if someone wants to be on here anonymously, without anyone having a clue who they are in real life, they're entitled to that. Knowing someone's I.P. address breaches that level of privacy, and that's why we don't allow for that information to be disclosed.

This is not my original handle. I was a fairly active poster a couple years ago with my old handle. Then I experienced two years of incredible upheaval in my personal life. So when I decided to come back to these boards I was unwilling to use that old handle. I don't think I was disliked by many back then so this is not a lame attempt to avoid old issues being thrown in my face. I simply do not feel like the same person with the same outlook on life as I had then. It is not an attempt to put something over on the other posters. I enjoyed most of you back then and continue to do so now. I just wanted to start without any preconceived notions about what my posting style, opinions etc should be in the here and now.

I am not so ignorant that I am unaware how easy it would be for a mod to "out" me using my IP. However, I would feel betrayed if this occurred. For this reason, Kranar's attempt to discover the truth of this accusation has my complete support.

edit: This was a throwaway handle back then. One created because I helped a member out financially and didn't want it carrying over into threads etc.

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Tisket]

[TheRoseLady]

I was going to ask if the actual IP was given out, or if it was just that someone was told that a person's true location was divulged. Well as true as you can ascertain from an IP address.

I guess it must have been the IP itself.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Now, if you want people removed as moderators on the possibility that somebody's IP address might have been given out but nobody knows about it...well, I don't quite know what to tell you. I'd recommend telling me to stop posting messages without using any words. I mean, I didn't say anything about that, and I don't even remember THINKING it, but apparently I was only fooling myself.

Sarcasm aside:
It was not a case of "I dun see it so it dun exist."This statement isn't much of a reassurance if the future policy is in fact "I don't see it so it doesn't exist", which is all I was trying to figure out.

[Parkbandit]

I guess I'm still waiting for this huge problem. So far, it's been a mountain out of a mole hill. More hysteria than anything else.

Kranar gave his IP out for anyone to have at it.. so far.. nothing. So it's not really a 'security' risk.. now it's about privacy... next it will be about the PC taking away someone's rights and freedoms.

This thread gets the big yawn from me.

:yawn:

[Anebriated]

Are these new issues or is this the same thing from awhile back?

[Showal]

I believe it's the same thing from a while back.

[Jolena]

It was my impression from the thoughts that Spun has posted that she is more concerned about the fact that she is learning of this now rather than back when it occurred, which to her is not how it should be. I thought she was saying she thinks that all of the posting community here on these boards should have been given a heads up by the staff that IP address was given out, although the culprit wasn't pinpointed, so that those of us who wished could take extra precautions.

[Anebriated]

That works, I was just wondering how this thread was different from the others that were started about the subject.

[Soulpieced]

How in the world did my name get thrown into this? I talk to all of.... 1 regular poster on PC via IM. I have never given out, or even bother looking at poster IP addresses. The mere idea that anyone thinks that I would do such a thing is laughable. Hell, I don't even have access to the Internet from work. Bottom line, anyone who would speculate that I purposely give out posters' IP addresses for any reason whatsoever has some major problems.

[AnticorRifling]

Don't you remember that one time you IM'ed me with some numbers than used my last name which starts with PI and said dude flip the last two letters of your name around!!!!11one

And I flipped out and made up some story about it?

[SpunGirl]

If it matters to you, Soulpieced, your name is not the one I was given with regards to staff giving out IPs. I don't know how your name got dragged into it, you'll have to ask Kranar.

-K

[imported_Kranar]

Whose name was it then? How did you get the name?

E-mail or U2U or post here.

[SpunGirl]

I u2u'd as much to Skirmisher today, since she asked, and told her she could forward it to HN. I'd be surprised if HN hasn't discussed it with you by now.

In addition, for those that asked, HN did answer my question about why the IP incident wasn't openly discussed (albeit in u2u). Her explanation was good, but I still disagree with keeping it quiet, and told her as much. I'm sure if she wants to post it here she will.

-K

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by SpunGirl]

[imported_Kranar]

<< It was my impression from the thoughts that Spun has posted that she is more concerned about the fact that she is learning of this now rather than back when it occurred >>

That's because it occured almost 1 year ago. There are plenty of rumours that have surfaced no doubt, between then and now. Having an official announcement regarding rumours and very vague ambiguous accusations only makes matters worse, especially when these vague and ambiguous accusations are serious in nature.

There's a reason why it's been almost a year since this issue was last discussed, and it's because for one year no one has made even a slight case about it worth looking into.

It's completely unreasonable to expect an official announcement warning members that some ghostly staff member is handing out IP addresses because some people on an AIM chat room came to that conclusion.

Did this happen? Who knows... but if it did, it's going to require a heck of a lot more than "So and so did this... take my word for it."

[Showal]

I don't know all the rumors, but honestly, to assume that any of the mods would do this seems absurd to me. I might disagree with some of the things they say and do, but I don't think any one of them has any malicious intent past poking fun at people every so often. I agree with Kranar, I imagine all of us would rather a little security in what they do rather than have people act against us based on rumors and assumptions.

The person who felt their security had been compromised contacted the staff at the time. Apparently it has been taken care of, but it is still talked about 12 months after the fact.

I think the worst I've seen a mod do is make a thread for the sole purpose of asking someone to leave the forum. That was a little ridiculous, if you ask me, but I don't think any of them have any reason to care if they can access our IPs.

I mean, I know Anticor's a jerk and all, but even he's not that bad.

Who knows, you probably have good reason to believe this and truly do believe it. I just think that if you have actual evidence, you should post it, but if you're just doing this based on what people told you, that doesn't seem like it's reasonable to base this on.

[Sean of the Thread]

Ban Wezas

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
I u2u'd as much to Skirmisher today, since she asked, and told her she could forward it to HN. I'd be surprised if HN hasn't discussed it with you by now.

-K
[Edited on 11-18-2005 by SpunGirl]

You certainly did and I completely forgot to forward it to HN or Kranar earlier.

That error has now been rectified.

Please accept my apologies.

~Denise

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Kranar knew very little, other than that an IP address was given out. He didn't know who gave it out.
.....
What I said was that there was no evidence of WHO done it. There's a difference between knowing something was done and knowing who was responsible.

Followed by


Originally posted by Kranar
Did this happen? Who knows... but if it did, it's going to require a heck of a lot more than "So and so did this... take my word for it."

These seem like contradictory statements to me.

Not informing the membership of this is like someone robbing gas stations, and the police saying, "we know that it happened, but not who did it, so we're not going to warn the other gas stations."

-K

[DeV]

I've debated posting in this thread all day and finally just said fuck it. Any and all information applicable to the rumors that have been circulating were given to the appropriate staff members at the time the incident occurred. Kranar is correct in saying the incident is a year old, February 2004 to be exact. I felt that staff investigated the situation as best they could, with the information available at the time.

How anyone, besides the two moderators initially involved, found out anything relating to the incident is beyond me. I never told anyone so this post comes as a surprise to be honest. I, personally, never accused any moderators of misconduct, as no proof was available then and none now. I simply asked questions, and as they began to be answered it was speculated that a staff member might have possibly supplied the information. This was never proven to be true. From the start, I knew without a doubt that this was something that would be next to impossible to know for certain.

This is why I did not pursue it any further than asking questions and passing information along that was asked for. I have never been worried about the person that obtained my information using it maliciously, but I do understand why some of you may be worried about not being told. I think it was the right thing to not disclose this information to the rest of the board members, as there was nothing more than innuendo at the time, and that is not enough to remove anyone from their position. I would not want it happening to me and I know the majority of us would feel the same had we been the accused.

p.s. Soulpieced had nothing to do with the incident. I am unsure as to how his name became involved.

[HarmNone]

Thanks, DeV. Since you're the one who was impacted by this alleged incident, it's best that you be the one to discuss it, in my opinion. I recall the U2U you sent to me regarding the comprimise of your IP, and the concern this gave both Kranar and I. I also recall that you were not angry, just upset, and didn't wish to have the whole thing discussed on the public boards, or to get anybody in trouble.

As to how anyone else found out about this, I can't tell you.
Whether, or not, a staff member gave out someone's IP address has NEVER been proven. It's been speculated. That's all. IP addresses can be obtained by other means, and no proof was ever found that any staff member comprimised the IP of any poster. Knowing Kranar, I'm convinced that he investigated the incident quite thoroughly.

I would hope that anyone here who is concerned about the security of their IP would take the necessary means to protect that security. I can't imagine that there are those here who don't know to do that, but I could be wrong. There are any number of programs out there that will allow you to maintain control over such things. If you don't have one, I'd suggest you get one.

[Showal]

IP numbers can be obtained as easily as directly connect with someone over AIM. I do understand this is a security issue, but how it is even definite that the IP address was obtained over PC?

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Showal
IP numbers can be obtained as easily as directly connect with someone over AIM. I do understand this is a security issue, but how it is even definite that the IP address was obtained over PC?

That's one of my points, Showal. It could never be proven that that was the case. It was only surmised. While I might believe that the moon is made of green cheese, until I go there I'll never know for sure. ;)

[DeV]

Originally posted by Showal
IP numbers can be obtained as easily as directly connect with someone over AIM. I do understand this is a security issue, but how it is even definite that the IP address was obtained over PC? This is precisely the reason I did not pursue it further. While there are a number of ways an IP can be obtained, I was and still am pretty sure of the way it was obtained in my case. Though, I could be very wrong and if so, I am okay with that and with the way the situation was handled in the end.

[Edited on 11-19-2005 by DeV]

[radamanthys]

So in recap: it happened or not happened- noone can prove it. No proof beyond a reasonable doubt: defendant aquitted. Case dismissed. Nothing bad has come of it, and most of us are on a non-static IP system anyway (dial up or cable broadband), so there are few lasting effects.

If you really feel that you've been compromised, and you have a static IP, call your ISP and have your registered ISP changed.

I fee assured, from the overall gist of this post, that the mods feel and felt even more slighted due to the aforementioned action than the users have. It leaves me with a better feeling about the whole thing.

[Showal]

I agree that Kranar and HN seem as, if not more, upset over the issue than anyone. I would not doubt HN's assumptions to be completely true, Kranar probably did investigate this to his complete ability.

And DeV, I wasn't trying to prove you wrong or anything. I don't think you took it that way anyways. I feel bad that you felt that your security was compromised. I just was offering up other ways your IP could be taken.

[Bobmuhthol]

DeV made an account to insult me. I called her on it.

I don't need a mod to break a rule to do this.

Now you all know the parties involved.

[Bobmuhthol]

It was February 2005, not 2004, btw. Staff is, therefore, incorrect in saying that it is a year old. 9 months to be exact.

/dev

[Edited on 11-19-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
It was February 2005, not 2004, btw.

Yes, it was, Bob. I think the 2004 was a typo. ;)

[StrayRogue]

Bob is the ownage.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
DeV made an account to insult me. I called her on it.It was a quote from something he'd wrote in the account's signature, specifically, which insulted him. I didn't mind being owned on that one, believe me.

From: Bobmuhthol
To: DeV
Sent: 2-16-2005 at 19:36
Message: I love your new account. However, I'd love your new account more if it didn't exist and you stopped harassing me.

In case you want to try to deny it..

OrgName: Roosevelt University
Address: 430 South Michigan Ave., Room 264
City: Chicago
StateProv: IL
PostalCode: 60605
Country: US

Luckily for him, I'd only used that account from my school computer and the one time I log on without a cloak, I received that U2U the same eveving. I figure if it was serious enough him to obtain server information, the message in the signature had an effect.

From: Bobmuhthol
To: DeV
Sent: 2-17-2005 at 16:29
Message: I'm not about to explain how I obtain server information. You can think whatever you want, really. All I'm interested in is not seeing that sig.

I eventually removed it and had forgotten about the whole affair until now.

[Bobmuhthol]

That U2U incriminates no one. I have a lovely program I like to call 'whoisview.exe,' and that is how I obtained such information. No IPs were given to me.

[DeV]

I'm glad no innocent staff members were harmed in the making of that semi-disastrous incident then.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
That U2U incriminates no one. I have a lovely program I like to call 'whoisview.exe,' and that is how I obtained such information. No IPs were given to me.

That program doesn't explain how you actually obtained the IP.

[Bobmuhthol]

Again, I didn't obtain an IP. I obtained the location. She is in Chicago. She was my (correct) prime suspect. Through further research, I was able to determine an IP from a Roosevelt University server. Everything I sent her in the U2U came from whoisview.exe on any RU IP.

[Brattt8525]

Scarey that the IP gave you the info right down to the room #. I really need to take some computer classes.

[Bobmuhthol]

The room *should* indicate the location of the proxy to which she connects. I'm guessing room 264 is where they keep their relay servers. If she resides in room 264, something is very wrong.

[HarmNone]

Heh. Thanks to Bob and DeV for clearing up this "Unsolved Mystery". ;)

[Daniel]

I dislike the fact that it took 4 days to get my password.

[StrayRogue]

Then please do fuck off.

[Trinitis]

Ok, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly..

Bob suspected DeV on this alt account. So he researched the PC to find out what collage she attends (I'm guessing based off the time/date of the posts, and assuming she was not at home), then used the web to find the college IP. Used this program to gather more info on that IP, then placed it into a u2u.

So it was a blind shot hoping she actually logged on at the colloge? Lucky guess?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Bob suspected DeV on this alt account. So he researched the PC to find out what collage she attends (I'm guessing based off the time/date of the posts, and assuming she was not at home), then used the web to find the college IP. Used this program to gather more info on that IP, then placed it into a u2u.>>

No.


Again, I didn't obtain an IP. I obtained the location. She is in Chicago. She was my (correct) prime suspect. Through further research, I was able to determine an IP from a Roosevelt University server. Everything I sent her in the U2U came from whoisview.exe on any RU IP.

That is very much sufficient information.

[Trinitis]

That program requires an IP, or host name to gather info. You had to have one or the other. This is what confuses me.

Edit to add :

The main feature of WhoisView is its simplicity. Type in a host name or IP address and it will retrieve the ownership information by digging through various authoritative whois servers. WhoisView will find information all other similar tools are unable to or don't bother to locate.

There are no complicated options. You may specify additional whois server for country code domains if required. The software may be minimized to system tray.

WhoisView may be used to find information like

Who owns a domain name
Who owns a specified IP address block
Who is the web hosting provider for a website
Who provides the DNS, Email handling, etc for a domain

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Adredrin]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<That program requires an IP, or host name to gather info. You had to have one or the other. This is what confuses me.>>


Through further research, I was able to determine an IP from a Roosevelt University server.

Telling me what whoisview.exe does means nothing to me.

[Trinitis]

well, it's clearly obvious you're unwilling to have a meaningful conversation with someone trying to actually understand what you did. Fairly typical of you.

Never mind then, I'll just chalk it up to you getting the IP from soemone you know, and stop atempting to find a nice solution that explains things for everyone.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<well, it's clearly obvious you're unwilling to have a meaningful conversation with someone trying to actually understand what you did. Fairly typical of you.>>

It's fairly typical of you to be fucking stupid.

<<Never mind then, I'll just chalk it up to you getting the IP from soemone you know, and stop atempting to find a nice solution that explains things for everyone.>>

That's very much inconsequential. I chalk it up to you being a moron.

[Brattt8525]

Alex didn't have to post saying he was involved, that alone should tell you he didn't get the IP by any means other then his own. Hell this part of the concerns should be over now, its a dead subject and it was shown to be no big huge bad Mod handing down IPs to anyone.

[Bobmuhthol]

Thank you. I'd have been a little kinder, but seriously, wtf? Why am I being questioned on something that I could have just shut up about so it would have been neither public information nor remotely possible to solve? Don't take me for a fool, plz.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
Alex didn't have to post saying he was involved, that alone should tell you he didn't get the IP by any means other then his own. Hell this part of the concerns should be over now, its a dead subject and it was shown to be no big huge bad Mod handing down IPs to anyone.

Because I feel it's part of my job as mod to try and understand how our website was used in *any* way to gather personal information, no matter how small. I was not atempting to accuse him of anything, I was trying to understand how he got what he got. He opted to be an asshole and not answer honest questions, so I responded in kind.

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Adredrin]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Because I feel it's part of my job as mod to try and understand how our website was used in *any* way to gather personal information, no matter how small.>>

That's not your job.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Because I feel it's part of my job as mod to try and understand how our website was used in *any* way to gather personal information, no matter how small.>>

That's not your job.

Part of my mod job is protecting the privacy of our members. Thats why we delete detailed personal information. Duh.

[Bobmuhthol]

Your job is to moderate. You're not an investigator. It didn't happen in your folder. etc.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Adredrin

Part of my mod job is protecting the privacy of our members. Thats why we delete detailed personal information. Duh.

[Bobmuhthol]

You're not protecting a God damn thing.

[Trinitis]

I'm doing my best, but self-rightous pricks like you would rather hide, and abuse any little holes you've found, rather then offer them up and atempt to fix any possible problems. :)

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Your job is to moderate. You're not an investigator. It didn't happen in your folder. etc.
Please don't tell us what our jobs are or are not. Only two people can do that, and you're not one of them. Thanks.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Please don't tell us what our jobs are or are not. Only two people can do that, and you're not one of them. Thanks.>>

I told Adredrin what his job is. Please don't tell me to whom it is I'm telling something. Only I can do that, and you're not me. Thanks.

[Trinitis]

As soon as Kranar tells me himself that my job does not include atempting to protect the private information of the posters on these boards, I'll step down as a mod. :)

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
I told Adredrin what his job is. Please don't tell me to whom it is I'm telling something. Only I can do that, and you're not me. Thanks.

If you are telling him what his job is as a moderator you ARE in fact telling all of us with the same title the same thing.

And your definition of what I am or am not is hereby rejected..

[Bobmuhthol]

<<If you are telling him what his job is as a moderator you ARE in fact telling all of us with the same title the same thing.>>

Incorrect.

[4a6c1]

Silly PC people and the PC sillyness.

Although. This is *SO* much better than being forced to watch 'As the World Turns' in spanish when the cleaning lady comes over...

:popcorn2:

[Brattt8525]

Well the way he has been askede has not exactly been a good way to ask for info one might be seeking. U2U might have been more readily accpeted rather then a post eluding to him getting the info in any other way then he did. The way things have been asked is only leading to everyone being defensive.

He does not have to explain exactly how he got the info unless he wants too, demanding it is going to get the already resulting reaction. I still say the scandel was shown to be nothing more then someone being smart and using his own resources so let it go.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Incorrect.

Hahaha.

Just saying the word does not make me any less correct.

Rejection stands.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Just saying the word does not make me any less correct.>>

Stating an incorrect statement does not make you any less incorrect.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
Well the way he has been askede has not exactly been a good way to ask for info one might be seeking. U2U might have been more readily accpeted rather then a post eluding to him getting the info in any other way then he did. The way things have been asked is only leading to everyone being defensive.

He does not have to explain exactly how he got the info unless he wants too, demanding it is going to get the already resulting reaction. I still say the scandel was shown to be nothing more then someone being smart and using his own resources so let it go.

#1. I was not rude in my form of asking. I was asking simple questions, I did not think simple questions required me to kiss his ass and suck up to get the answers.

#2. As one of Bob's friends was pointed out in this situation, and Bob has claimed he gained nothing from said friend, one would expect bob to be willing to at least explain how he gathered this information on his own.

I did not start this string of posts hoping to stir shit. I started it in hopes that Bob would act more like an adult and answer direct, simple questions.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Stating an incorrect statement does not make you any less incorrect.

I forgot i was arguing with a child.

Carry on.

[Mistomeer]

<<Through further research, I was able to determine an IP from a Roosevelt University server>>

I halfway agree with you Adredrin. Bob's never explained what this further research is that led to determining the IP that led to a whois for an IP block that wasn't Roosevelt's web server, since they use a hosting company for that.

Further, why would you post a whois, or even do a whois, if you didn't know the IP of both accounts? The whole point of proving two accounts are linked and using a whois is that you know the IP for both, thus the whois for both returns the same information. However, it's possible that Bob somehow found an IP for another server and knew it was DeV's account with no additional help.

As long as I'm posting, I disagree with Kranar on a couple of points. First, I don't see how Kranar can tell someone is port scanning him without use of a firewall software or something very similar. Secondly, having an IP address is a security risk in that not everyone stays current with MS updates, uses a firewall, or runs AV software. Just because Kranar posts his IP address and no one does anything doesn't mean the same is true for every single member of the PC. Besides, anyone serious about hacking an IP isn't going to do a port scan. They're going to use a tool like Retina or Nessus.

[Brattt8525]

You don't have to ass kiss but jesus U2U him? The one post you were basically sayingh hey you couldnt have gottne the info the way you are saying I would quote it but my pc is down and I am using my laptop with no freaking mouse so I am being lazy in not doing it myself.

P.S I am currently pissed at the Qeek Squad just wanted to add that although it is off topic.

[Trinitis]

That's exactly why I was requesting more information. I've done everything I can think of to gather the IP address without using my mod powers. The only ways I can gather is he either :

1. Managed to link something to DeV that she clicked on to allow him to record her ip (IE going to a myspace/LJ/his website, etc).

or

2. Found some way to have XMB source revealed so he could see everything that mods can see.

The fact is, without the IP, he had no way to know she was posting from the college she attends.

This is what I'm trying to request more info on. But you can see the responce I'm getting.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Bob's never explained what this further research is that led to determining the IP that led to a whois for an IP block that wasn't Roosevelt's web server, since they use a hosting company for that.>>

Right, it's not roosevelt.edu, it's their proxy.

<<Further, why would you post a whois, or even do a whois, if you didn't know the IP of both accounts? The whole point of proving two accounts are linked and using a whois is that you know the IP for both, thus the whois for both returns the same information. However, it's possible that Bob somehow found an IP for another server and knew it was DeV's account with no additional help.>>

I did a whois on a Roosevelt University proxy IP because it gives a fun amount of official information on the source. I looked for the University IP because I was given the location of the account in question. It carried on from there on my own doing. Instead of saying, "I bet it's you!!" I pasted the whois. It's better than giving an RU IP and saying, "I bet this is your IP!" because that makes very little sense, to me anyway.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
You don't have to ass kiss but jesus U2U him? The one post you were basically sayingh hey you couldnt have gottne the info the way you are saying I would quote it but my pc is down and I am using my laptop with no freaking mouse so I am being lazy in not doing it myself.

P.S I am currently pissed at the Qeek Squad just wanted to add that although it is off topic.

If you seriously think I would have gotten a different responce via u2u, then you don't know bob.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<If you seriously think I would have gotten a different responce via u2u, then you don't know bob.>>

It would have been different, but still not what you're looking for. I am not about to detail exactly how I did what I did. Much the same, you are not going to figure it out and can not prove anything to incriminate anyone. I'm not going to be the subject of a valid 9 month long investigation. Luckily, there's a distinct lack of validity clouding the whole thing.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<The fact is, without the IP, he had no way to know she was posting from the college she attends.>>

rofl

Your facts are fucking terrible and nothing more than the speculation of an uninvolved party.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<If you seriously think I would have gotten a different responce via u2u, then you don't know bob.>>

It would have been different, but still not what you're looking for. I am not about to detail exactly how I did what I did. Much the same, you are not going to figure it out and can not prove anything to incriminate anyone. I'm not going to be the subject of a valid 9 month long investigation. Luckily, there's a distinct lack of validity clouding the whole thing.

IE You did something that would get you or someone else into trouble, thus you will not admit too it.

[Bobmuhthol]

So you're a psychologist now, too?

I suggest you take your psychology here: http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

and be sure to tell me how Amendment V sounds.

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<The fact is, without the IP, he had no way to know she was posting from the college she attends.>>

rofl

Your facts are fucking terrible and nothing more than the speculation of an uninvolved party.

There is no possible way you can know where someone is posting on THESE boards from, unless you are a mod, or are capturing their data stream.

[Daniel]

Except for the fact that shes said where she goes to school on more than one occasion.

[Bobmuhthol]

Originally posted by Daniel
Except for the fact that shes said where she goes to school on more than one occasion.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Daniel
Except for the fact that shes said where she goes to school on more than one occasion.

But she did not say she was posting from the college on that account when she posted. Thus, the point.

Don't matter anyway, I've already got the answers I need now.

[Daniel]

I take it, you've never heard of the term "Bluff"

[Bobmuhthol]

<<But she did not say she was posting from the college on that account when she posted. Thus, the point.>>

I apologize for having a brain and using it. If she wasn't posting from college, it would not have worked. Apparently you figured this much out. What you can't quite decrypt is that she WAS posting from college so it worked.

I'm glad you have the answers you need. It must be hard looking in the mod folder, where I've noticed a bit of activity about this.

[Showal]

If Bob knew I posted as this name and he suspected another name, and I told him I went to Boston College a number of times ... it would very much look like he did something suspicious if he just sent me an IP address for BC to the suspected account. That being said, he wouldn't have to know both IP addresses of both accounts to compare. He'd have to know where I went to school and figure out a potential IP address for BC. That could be obtained any number of ways.


Originally posted by Daniel
I take it, you've never heard of the term "Bluff"

Either way, as Daniel said, this seems like just an effective bluff. You believe someone is who they say they are not and can prove it, you send them something that makes it seem like you figured it out. The person panics, you know you were right.

Now if the suspect account was not DeV, the real owner of the suspect account would have just gotten some useless information from Bob and probably not reacted.

Seems to me that Bob played a nice trick.

[Brattt8525]

Opps thanks for catching that Bob :(

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Brattt8525]

[Bobmuhthol]

Wrong thread.

[Showal]

There are few things Bob does not catch.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<But she did not say she was posting from the college on that account when she posted. Thus, the point.>>

I apologize for having a brain and using it. If she wasn't posting from college, it would not have worked. Apparently you figured this much out. What you can't quite decrypt is that she WAS posting from college so it worked.

I'm glad you have the answers you need. It must be hard looking in the mod folder, where I've noticed a bit of activity about this.

Under what thread title are you noticing this activity, Bob?

[Bobmuhthol]

Assumptions and occasional observations lead me to believe it was something you started, though I forget the name.

[Gan]

I'm betting either:

1. Welp...

or

2. Venting arena

:whistle:

[Bobmuhthol]

Welp... 323 HarmNone Council's Conference Hall Today at 02:24 PM by HarmNone

If it's not this thread, I'll make a public announcement that I'm a terrible observer. My money rides strongly on this one.

[HarmNone]

Heh. There are other things discussed in the Council Hall, Bob. You can't just assume that because I post something there it's about this situation. There's more than this going on. ;)

[Bobmuhthol]

It's the only mod folder I've noticed as active. I'm not saying this is the only thing going on, but that's where everything on this topic that is discussed out of public view is located.

Note that this entire post has no factual data and is merely speculation.

[Trinitis]

Actually, you are incorrect. The solution I was looking for was not posted in the mod section. :)

[Bobmuhthol]

Oh well. Whatever solution you got was not the truth, since it couldn't have possibly come from me and I am the involved person.

I'm glad you got your awesome supercool solution to an inexistent problem, though.

[HarmNone]

Ko-wrecked, Bob. Speculation is all it is, and speculation has no real value when there's nothing to back it up. I don't know of any currently active folder in the Council area the title of which would lead you to believe that this matter is being heavily discussed.

The active titles at this time happen to have titles that might just as well be discussing the price of yachts. So, what makes you think that the particular folder to which you refer is "but that's where everything on this topic that is discussed out of public view is located"?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<the title of which would lead you to believe that this matter is being heavily discussed.>>

Most of the discussion has apparently been held privately, noticeably by U2U. For everything that's not U2U, it must be in the mod folder, since it certaintly ain't here. Certain mods have been posting in your thread, and those mods lead me to believe that there is definite discussion of the issue within that thread.

<<The active titles at this time happen to have titles that might just as well be discussing the price of yachts.>>

You're absolutely right. If you want my input, I'd say $700,000 is a fair price.

<<So, what makes you think that the particular folder to which you refer is "but that's where everything on this topic that is discussed out of public view is located"?>>

Everything depends on the validity that there is discussion of the issue in the mod folder. If there isn't, everything I've said is wrong. Otherwise, there's a good chance that I'm right. It's the only thread that I can tell could possibly house such a discussion, so it must be where that discussion lies, if said discussion is taking place.

My thinking is rather impulsive, but that's what makes it fun.

[HarmNone]

Heh. As long as you're willing to accept the fact that your thinking is, in fact, impulsive and could just as well be light years off, I'm happy with it. We can all guess. We can all assume. We can, also, be dead wrong. ;)

*Edited to add that $700K sounds good to me, as long as the ark is seaworthy!*

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by HarmNone]