Banning Christmas

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Should public schools not celebrate this holiday openly? Its is, after all, a religious holiday at its roots. Schools are run by the government and there are strict rules about mixing church and state government.

Should government offices not be allowed to hang christmas specific ornaments? Are bells of holly ok?

I didn’t think much of the issue at first. Its so ingrained into society I doubt it could ever be completely abolished, nor should it. But I can see the point of restricting government bodies from displaying anything in a religious context.

The floor is open.

[Brattt8525]

The country is being taken over by everyone elses religions and beliefs so why the hell not? Seems our traditions and thoughts on god etc are in the minority nowadays.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Brattt8525]

[4a6c1]

Its a part of the culture. People who dont do it should just ignore it, do their own thing and not be whiny. If other religions get so big so that the society has it ingraned into the system I wouldnt fault those either. Its a variance of human existence that is necessary. (Faith, I mean).

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by JihnasSpirit]

[Sylvan Dreams]

I think it depends how you look at it. LOTS of people celebrate Christmas purely as a Santa Claus holiday, and lots of people celebrate it as the Christian holiday.

IMO, I think if schools and the government are going to recognize Christmas, then they should Hanukkah and Kwanzaa as well to be fair.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Seems our traditions and thoughts on god etc are in the minority nowadays.>>

Yes, Christianity is a GIANT minority.

WHAT THE FUCK?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<IMO, I think if schools and the government are going to recognize Christmas, then they should Hanukkah and Kwanzaa as well to be fair.>>

How the motherfuck is that fair? The government was built on Christian beliefs. There were definitely no blacks building the foundation of the country.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. They just built the foundations of this country.

Myself, I don't view Christmas as a very Christian holiday. Jesus wasn't really born then. It's about family and presents and winter and Santa Claus.

That's why I see it as okay to not enshrine Kwanzaa and Hanukah to the same degree.

With that said, I'd be all for having Ramadan and Hanukah get equal time if Christmas was heavily Christian these days. Kwanzaa doesn't make the cut due to its relative newness, not due to any ridiculous notions of "contributed to the country."

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Gan]

Christmas is one of the greatest economic stimuli of the fiscal year for the USA.

I love Christmas.

edited to add:
Not to mention a lot of cool movies are released during that season.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Ganalon]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Myself, I don't view Christmas as a very Christian holiday. Jesus wasn't really born then. It's about family and presents and winter and Santa Claus.

That's why I see it as okay to not enshrine Kwanzaa and Hanukah to the same degree.
Completely agree. It's more materialistic than anything. I particularly enjoy having the days off from school/work.

[Czeska]

A good portion of the "Christmas" symbols aren't Christian anyway. They're more Solstice symbols. There's so much to celebrate at that time of year, I think everyone can pick and choose.

[Viridian]

I don't think there is a problem as long as they leave the christ, out of the Chirstmas. No talking about it. I don't ever recall any teachers when in grade school telling us what Christmas was about.


besides, many Christmas traditions are based on those which were used before Christ was born. Therefore, I don't see it being a problem.

[Renian]

Myself, I don't view Christmas as a very Christian holiday. Jesus wasn't really born then.

Well, it doesn't help that we've masked the meaning behind a fat ass with flying reindeer. Still, you are right; we may have gotten the day wrong. We definitely got the year wrong, so it's completely possible.

[Atlanteax]

Christmas is now just basically a commercialized holiday in regard to the massive present giving.

The family get-together tradition that mirrors in significance to Thanksgiving, does not really have any religious roots either.

The holiday, as Thanksgiving, and even Easter now (plently of Easter dinners, but not necessarily a lot of trips to Sunday church), are really predominantly about Family.

[Artha]

Christmas is, at it's roots, Christian...but at this point in time, it's hardly a specifically Christian holiday. Just look at Japan...not a Christian nation by any stretch of the imagination, but man do they like them some Christmas.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<IMO, I think if schools and the government are going to recognize Christmas, then they should Hanukkah and Kwanzaa as well to be fair.>>

How the motherfuck is that fair? The government was built on Christian beliefs. There were definitely no blacks building the foundation of the country.

Because it's a religious holiday. The school system should either stay out of it 100% or if they do acknowledge it in any way, they should acknowledge the similar major holidays as well.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Originally posted by Artha
Christmas is, at it's roots, Christian...but at this point in time, it's hardly a specifically Christian holiday. Just look at Japan...not a Christian nation by any stretch of the imagination, but man do they like them some Christmas.

Christmas is not a Christian holiday at its roots. The date is actually pre-Christian and is pagan (Roman I think). Christian churches often absorbed existing holidays that the people were already celebrating, except they just gave it a new label so that the people's celebrations would be 'holy'.

[radamanthys]

got banned in my school.

Still taught kwanzaa, though. Pushed it hardc0re.

THAT'S what happens. Not religious myself, but not a fan of that shit.

[Celexei]

Originally posted by Sylvan Dreams

Originally posted by Artha
Christmas is, at it's roots, Christian...but at this point in time, it's hardly a specifically Christian holiday. Just look at Japan...not a Christian nation by any stretch of the imagination, but man do they like them some Christmas.

Christmas is not a Christian holiday at its roots. The date is actually pre-Christian and is pagan (Roman I think). Christian churches often absorbed existing holidays that the people were already celebrating, except they just gave it a new label so that the people's celebrations would be 'holy'.

The same point that I was gonna make. As for myself, I believe Christmas is a wonderful thing in bringing together family. I'm not a strong supporter of any Christian beliefs so I don't really "Celebrate" but as for schools and such, I see no problem with mild celebrations but I do agree that all other cultures holiday traditions should be observed as well...or that when it comes to schools and such, just bring it together as "The Holidays" and have it be all of them non specified. As for that fat ass with reigndeer, He is a Christian figure in a since. St. Nicolas was a man who supposedly went around and left presents and gifts in the shoes of children way back in the day. The same idea is there, just a bit more commercialized.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Because it's a religious holiday. The school system should either stay out of it 100% or if they do acknowledge it in any way, they should acknowledge the similar major holidays as well.>>

And what happens to the people like me who celebrate Festivus? We're totally left out.

[Jazuela]

I always hated the Christmas decorations at school, at work, on the town green, in public offices. Growing up Jewish, it was a slap in the face. And when they -did- start lumping Chanukkah decorations in with Christmas decorations, it was an even sharper slap, because it showed me they had absolutely no understanding, or care to understand, the festival and how it is NOT a holy day. It was, to me, the "powers that be" saying "Oh yeah, let's not forget the Jews and throw them a bone so they won't make a fuss."

I have no problem with people who revere Christ wanting to take a day off for prayer, reflection, and family time. But that's not what Christmas break at school, 4-day weekends, week-long breaks between that and New Year's, and the decorations are about.

I'd like to see all government offices, including the school systems, ditch the whole Santa thing. I'd like to see them allow Christians to take Christmas off with or without pay, and allow everyone of other religions take their main Holy Day off with or without pay, equally. (Yom Kippur if you're Jewish) If they feel the need to provide a week off at school, no problem. Just don't call it Christmas break. Call it Winter Break, or Seasonal Break, or Let's All Buy Stuff Break.

[CrystalTears]

Lots of schools do call it winter or holiday break.

Not sure why it should be a slap in the face. I had many Jewish friends growing up, and they celebrated their holiday just fine, along with putting up a Christmas tree and decorations. They would even play around and rub it in our face that they would give each other gifts for eight days and we only had one. Heh. Maybe I just had understanding, good sports as friends. ;)

You don't want to see the Nativity scene, that's one thing. But a tree, decorations, lights and presents were always just about a holiday for sharing with family and loved ones. Not sure why people would take offense to that.

If anyone should be upset it should be Christians for other people butchering their religious holidays to nothing but commercialism. No one else's religion has been modified the ways ours have because of intolerance.

I say, let people celebrate any holiday they want any way they want. Don't oppress anyone's decorations of any religion. You take away Christmas as a whole, you're going to tear away the ability of people being able to celebrate their religion, one of the reasons people would come to this country so that they would have that freedom. Separation of church and state wasn't about denying people the right to celebrate their religion, only that they can't be denied living in society because of it.

[Edited on 11/11/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Czeska]

It was always called Winter break at my school.

As far as days off from work, most companies close because SO MANY people would be off for Christmas that it'd cost too much to open for business. In some predominantly Jewish neighborhoods around here, the schools and many business do shut down completely for the main Jewish holidays.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
How the motherfuck is that fair? The government was built on Christian beliefs. There were definitely no blacks building the foundation of the country.

Incorrect.


Originally posted by Jazuela
I always hated the Christmas decorations at school, at work, on the town green, in public offices. Growing up Jewish, it was a slap in the face.

I've always enjoyed the decorations and the time myself. Though I grew tired of the religious implications of it all, that was only a small portion of the season.

My irritation is, and has always been, how these holidays are handled on the state, federal, and commerce levels. A portion of the nation gets some days off, if they want them or not. If I want my days off, I have to eat up vacation to do so.

Were I not in a salaried position and calling the shots, my vacation could (and most likely would) get turned down and I'd be "excused" from work without pay for the time I celebrate.

School, work, whatever ... the Christian notion has squatted on top of them and the best we can hope for is that "God", "Jesus", or anyone else isn't shoved down our throats.

So if the schools are banning the holiday ... I've no problem with it as the schools in this area have banned Halloween for a few years now in order to not offend anyone's religion, but of course Valentine's Day, Easter, and Christmas are still running strong.

[Warriorbird]

It was called Winter Break in my school as well.

:shrugs:

None of the Jewish kids I knew ever had a problem with that. They wanted to get off school just like everybody else.

Sounds pretty pathetic regarding your school, Radamanthys.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Incorrect.>>

I disagree.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. The South clearly doesn't count in Bob's view.

:rolls eyes:

[Bobmuhthol]

Hi, the South, as well as the North, couldn't care less about blacks because they weren't Christian. Did you ever hear about slavery?

[Jazuela]

The Christmas Tree has its origins in pagan religions. But in America at the present time, it represents Christmas. I don't like seeing my tax dollars at work to pay for the moving of a tree to the green (they're usually donated, but the town pays to have it brought to the Green), the entire downtown district lit - electricity paid for by tax dollars, the entire city hall closed for the lighting festival - though all employees get paid for that, etc. etc. etc.

And as Tsa'ah says, if someone wants to take Yom Kippur off, they have to lose a vacation day or personal day or lie and call in sick. If a pagan wanted to celebrate their *religious* holiday of Samhain (Halloween to everyone else) they have to take a vacation day or whatever. If a Muslim needs time off for Eid (the celebration marking the end of Ramadan) they have to lose a vacation day.

And yet, all these people who have to lose a vacation day to celebrate their holidays, have to pay taxes that foot the bill for everyone to take a day off for Christmas, and taxes that pay to move, maintain, light, and then remove and destroy the tree that has come to represent their religious holiday. If they want to do this, let them donate the money for it. Don't take it out of the tax coffers. And don't place it on the town green, or in government buildings. It doesn't belong there and it offends me that I have to be reminded when I go into a government building, or in a school, that the government caters to one religious group and not the others.

That's what I have trouble with, along with those insipid christmas carols you can't escape unless you shut yourself in your house and don't turn on the TV. Winter songs I love - and the Little Drummer Boy makes me weepy (I'm a sap). The Hallelujah Chorus is awesome. But to have it shoved down my throat wherever I go, no matter which radio station I switch to, at work, at the supermarket, piped through speakers on the streets if I need to go downtown, it just more than I should have to deal with year after year.

[Bobmuhthol]

In direct response to Jazuela's post:

Nobody asked them to live in the United States. Ever.

Edit: Take your socialist beliefs elsewhere. Like beautiful Communist China, Communist Russia, or Communist Cuba. They had really cool ideas like yours where everyone is equal!!

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Jazuela]

No one asked Christians to live in America either, Bob. What does it have to do with anything?

Me, Socialist? Hell no. I just don't like my tax dollars paying to support a religious holiday. It kinda goes against the whole point of "Seperation of Church and State."


[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Jazuela]

[Brattt8525]

One Nation under God.....leave the nation if you don't like it?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<No one asked Christians to live in America either, Bob. What does it have to do with anything?>>

Christians aren't whining that they're not being treated fairly. It has a lot to do with everything.

<<Me, Socialist? Hell no. I just don't like my tax dollars paying to support a religious holiday. It kinda goes against the whole point of "Seperation of Church and State.">>

Don't worry, your tax dollars go to much stupider causes on a daily basis. Christmas is once a year.

[Warriorbird]

Hi, the South, as well as the North, couldn't care less about blacks because they weren't Christian. Did you ever hear about slavery?

Most slaves actually were Christian. With that said, you said BUILT the country. Quite frankly, without slaves, much of the construction/farm development in the early South would not have happened. Slaves mattered quite a lot to government and economy of the South. Does that mean that they were thought well of? No. It means they were a factor though.

After the war, blacks provided cheap factory labor up North and in the nascent Midwest.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
One Nation under God.....leave the nation if you don't like it?

40's McCarthyism BULLSHIT Bratt.

This nation was founded by people trying to FLEE religious persecution, to worship .. OR NOT .. as they chose.

The Constitutional Convention CHOSE to recognize that and refused to allow christian doctrine to make it's way into the paper they were writing.


[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Most slaves actually were Christian. With that said, you said BUILT the country. Quite frankly, without slaves, much of the construction/farm development in the early South would not have happened. Slaves mattered quite a lot to the economy of the South, and the government as well.>>

Christianity did not exist in southern Africa. It was taught to them by the slavers and slave masters. With that said, I said BUILT the country. Blacks did not build the country. They were the raw material used to do it. Steel doesn't build skyscrapers, people do it with steel. The South's economy does not affect politics.


<<40's McCarthysim BULLSHIT Bratt.>>

McCarthyism was the 50's.

<<This nation was founded by people trying to FLEE religious persecution, to worship .. OR NOT .. as they chose.>>

Nobody is prohibiting religious beliefs at all.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Aaysia]

Originally posted by Jazuela
And as Tsa'ah says, if someone wants to take Yom Kippur off, they have to lose a vacation day or personal day or lie and call in sick. If a pagan wanted to celebrate their *religious* holiday of Samhain (Halloween to everyone else) they have to take a vacation day or whatever. If a Muslim needs time off for Eid (the celebration marking the end of Ramadan) they have to lose a vacation day.

Everyone gets divali, Eid and Shouter Baptist liberation day off. They're treated just like easter and christmas are here. Which is probably why I don't see the big deal about the christmas thing... :shrug:

[Tsa`ah]

<<40's McCarthysim BULLSHIT Bratt.>>

McCarthyism was the 50's.

I say 40's because the roots of McCarthyism started before McCarthy ... see HUAC and the Alien registration act.



Nobody is prohibiting religious beliefs at all.

Just the opposite. Which is one of the causes of the European exodus then.

Religion, with the exception of vague deist references, was not included for a specific reason.

[Warriorbird]

Christianity did not exist in Africa. It was taught to them. With that said, I said BUILT the country. Blacks did not build the country. They were the raw material used to do it. Steel doesn't build skyscrapers, people do it with steel. The South's economy does not affect politics.

Christianity actually did exist in Africa, Islam too, though for the most part the areas that slaves were taken from were not Christian. After a certain point, unlike Carribean slavery (which was very lethal), most slaves in America were the result of other slaves from America.

Without said "raw material", the South could have never been built into what it became. Without steel, you can't build a skyscraper, and steel is quite frankly a piss poor analogy for labor.

The South's economy then, like now, has and had a tremendous effect on politics. If you've read older copies of the Bill of Rights you'd understand this. If you've read related Supreme Court decisions, you'd understand this. If you've read any of the myriad number of historical slavery laws, you'd understand this. While I'm not one of those people who'd shout out, "Slavery was the only cause of the Civil War!" your statements come across as pretty ignorant.

While I don't claim that black people built the North, they certainly were involved in the building of the South.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Bobmuhthol]

And for the "slaves were Christian" argument, I offer a source saying otherwise.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/black_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=17

<<I say 40's because the roots of McCarthyism started before McCarthy>>

Agreed.

[Warriorbird]

Your source actually proves my point. Thanks.

If you remember, y'know, that whole revolution occuring in 1776 bit, you might have one of those "Oh!" moments.


[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Christianity actually did exist in Africa, Islam too, though for the most part the areas that slaves were taken from were not Christian.>>

Not so much in southern Africa, though, which I changed. It originated in North Africa, spread, blah, blah, but Africa was still very much not entirely Christian as a whole.

<<Without said "raw material", the South could have never been built into what it became. Without steel, you can't build a skyscraper, and steel is quite frankly a piss poor analogy for labor.>>

You're right, the South wouldn't be the same. Blacks didn't influence political ideals concerning whether or not to celebrate Christmas AT ALL. Steel was a great analogy: it doesn't dictate how the skyscraper is built, it just does its job and shuts the fuck up, much like the blacks.

<<The South's economy then, like now, has and had a tremendous effect on politics. If you've read older copies of the Bill of Rights you'd understand this. If you've read related Supreme Court decisions, you'd understand this. If you've read any of the myriad number of historical slavery laws, you'd understand this. While I'm not one of those people who'd shout out, "Slavery was the only cause of the Civil War!" your statements come across as pretty ignorant.>>

Did any of them say anything about Christmas? That's the topic.

<<While I don't claim that black people built the North, they certainly were involved in the building of the South.>>

They were used. They didn't do it on free will, nor would they have done it if they were not forced to.

Summary: You're talking about something that is not the topic. :'(

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Your source actually proves my point. Thanks. It's also rather appropriate for your age group.>>

Yes, it sure does.

Warriorbird: Most slaves were Christian.
Source: Few slaves were Christian.
Warriorbird: I'm totally right.
Logic: Time to commit suicide.

[Warriorbird]

Get this, Bob. America didn't get independence until 1776. The article points out that once you past the 1760's slaves became more self reproducing and much more Christianized.

No, really?

Yes Bob, really.

You're just trying to change the scope of things.

Your original dumbass statement said nothing about them related to Christmas. It's what I took issue to.

If anything, black people building part of America is more justification for celebrating Christmas. I imagine a lot more black families celebrate Christmas than Ramadan, Hanukah, or Kwanzaa. Kwanzaa is just a modern creation.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Bobmuhthol]

America had its own politics well before it officially gained independence from England. Christianized slaves in 1760 doesn't mean that the country was not being built before slaves practiced Christianity.

I'm withdrawing from such a stupid fucking argument that should never happen. You've won.

[AnticorRifling]

I agreed with you, WB, until you said "You're showing your age, Bob, and the rationalizations are cute." That's a Heshir I'm old so I know comment. Age doesn't matter.


That being said I think people read way too much into these things. Hell I want Veteran's Day off but I don't pitch a bitch about it because I know that I'm not the only person that lives in this country (weird concept Jaz but I know some people think different) I'm glad for the time I get to spend with my family and I don't care if you call it Poopless Tuesday I like my holiday's, heck I like just about everyone's holidays.

Another aside saying One Nation Under God...you don't like God get out. That's kind of missing the point. You're God, my God, and the beliefs there of could be totally different. Just because I don't believe in your God doesn't mean I need to get out. It's called a melting pot for a reason.

[Warriorbird]

I agree. That was a silly comment. But, then again, neither Bob or I generally use polite debating tactics.

I think that, despite said argument, celebrating Christmas is just fine. I'm probably one of the more fanatical people about seperation of church and state on this board, and I sure don't consider it a problem.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Janarth]

Christmas stems from the catholic church making a holiday to compete with the Winter Solstice (a few days before). All of the major christian holidays are within a few days of Pagan holidays. Coincidence, I think not?

That said, the jewish kids always get outta school for Hanukkah or however you spell it AND get christmas off. Why not treat it like work? Give every kid X days off during the school year, most jewish kids spend X of that on hanukkah or however it works, the Christians spend X on Christmas and the minorities can allot them as they wish for whatever they celebrate. The pain thing would be for the teachers rehashing stuff. But I say treat it like college, no rehashing, you're responsible for what you miss. Deal.

[Brattt8525]

I was not saying if you don't like MY God get out I was referring to her comments on a slap in the face seeing christmas decorations about certain holidays christian beliefs etc. If you truely are bothered by a countries beliefs traditions etc leave find another country to live in.

As far as holidays I love them all, any excuse to take the day off works for me!

[AnticorRifling]

That I will agree with. I don't get bothered by what others want to display. If everyone was like me this country would rock but it would be boring, diversity is where it's at but not at the cost of the pussification of the American spirit. I don't want to ever become so PC that I can't order crackers with my soup :cool:

Ohh and Janarth, that's exactly how we handle holidays here at my work. X number of days for holidays (to go with the standard holidays) and you can just put in a request to have alternate days and work the days everyone else has off. Heck this year I think I'll be working on Thanksgiving so I can take a different day off :cool:

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
I was not saying if you don't like MY God get out I was referring to her comments on a slap in the face seeing christmas decorations about certain holidays christian beliefs etc.

While I agree that seeing a menorah or 6 point star next to wreaths and canes as a slap a bit overboard in reaction, your comment was more over the top. "One nation under god" was and is McCarthyism bullshit. This love it or leave it crap does more harm than good and could easily be turned around anytime you express a complaint.


If you truely are bothered by a countries beliefs traditions etc leave find another country to live in.

When do you pack?


As far as holidays I love them all, any excuse to take the day off works for me!

Which is fine, but as I've pointed out, some of us have to take holidays off because they are celebrated by another religion. Also as I've pointed out, some of us have to burn vacation, get vacation refused, or just not get paid at all to celebrate and observe our holidays and shabots. It's a standard practice, which is why we don't care much if the schools decide to cancel christmas.

That said, I think people should be completely free to celebrate whatever they believe in. As it is now, you're only free to celebrate without reprocussion if it's christian.

I rather like the christmas season, channukah coinciding or not. School's getting breaks during this season has become the institution, so that's not a big deal. Kids and educators decorating their schools without the religious icons aren't a big deal to me either ... it's just when it becomes "christian" only that it becomes a problem.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[Brattt8525]

Why should I pack my bags and leave the country? I am not the one complaining. I accept all faiths and religions and give them a wide path to express said beliefs.

[Ilvane]

Just because the holiday is commercialized doesn't mean it's any less of a "Christian" Holiday. I celebrate the Holidays with my mom and sister, my mom sees it as a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Christ, while I see it as Yule time and the winter solstice. Doesn't matter to me, because it's time with the family.

I think if they are going to celebrate anything, make it a Holiday break, and the Holiday season. That includes everyone.

-A

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Ilvane]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
Why should I pack my bags and leave the country? I am not the one complaining. I accept all faiths and religions and give them a wide path to express said beliefs.

You want that I should dig into your past posts and pull up some quotes?

Your statement smacks of "love it or leave it" ... while your actions (posts) dictate that you should be among the first to start packing.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Sylvan Dreams
Christmas is not a Christian holiday at its roots.This is a flawed statement. The concept of Christmas is not based on coinciding with a pagan holiday. The concept of a festival around the winter solstice obviously predates Christianity by millenia, but to go from there to saying Christmas is not based on Christianity is a bit much.
Originally posted by Janarth
Coincidence, I think not?Sure was nice of the Lord to make everyone's holidays happen at roughly the same time, eh? :saint:
But I say treat it like college, no rehashing, you're responsible for what you miss. Deal.There's a reason that doesn't happen until college. Think about it.
Originally posted by Tsa`ah
As it is now, you're only free to celebrate without reprocussion if it's christian. Yeah, nobody ever takes umbrage with a Christian preaching. WTF planet do you live on?

[ElanthianSiren]

I agree with pretty much what Jarnth and Ts'ah said. Most schools now call it winter break in an effort to include all faiths. The problem is when one gets out into the working world (as was pointed out). I like the X number of paid days off that someone else mentioned.

As for Christmas, I don't see it as being religious, more ornamental. My mother's whole side of the family is roman catholic. I am obviously not catholic. I don't throw a shit fit when I see a christmas tree, nor do I get upset going into church and listening to the beautiful sermons and singing. I am similarly not offended by the beauty of mosques or the menorrah.

If you are not the religion in question, there is always something to be said for the aesthetic value of the season. If you are, you may choose to take your beliefs deeper to a religious state. I think schools are spot on saying Happy Holidays and encouraging kids to explore religion from each other, not instruction. I also don't mind my tax dollars going into ornamental displays for whatever religion (generally around here, they are pretty diversified).

Hinduism teaches that, at the core of religion, there is a unity of all gods and faiths; I think people in this country would do well to learn that sentiment, being as diversified as we are.


-M

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
[quote]Originally posted by Sylvan Dreams
Christmas is not a Christian holiday at its roots.This is a flawed statement. The concept of Christmas is not based on coinciding with a pagan holiday. The concept of a festival around the winter solstice obviously predates Christianity by millenia, but to go from there to saying Christmas is not based on Christianity is a bit much.
Originally posted by Janarth
Coincidence, I think not?

I think Sylvan is talking about the evidence from passages of the Bible that, given the seasonal happenings in the holy land, suggest that Jesus was not born in December.

-M

[kranfer]

I have no problem with this. Celebrating Christmas is not a union of Church and State, even if done by a school. Although it would be nice to see jewish holidays in schools :)

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Yeah, nobody ever takes umbrage with a Christian preaching. WTF planet do you live on?

This one dumb ass ...


Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Which is fine, but as I've pointed out, some of us have to take holidays off because they are celebrated by another religion. Also as I've pointed out, some of us have to burn vacation, get vacation refused, or just not get paid at all to celebrate and observe our holidays and shabots. It's a standard practice, which is why we don't care much if the schools decide to cancel christmas.


Way to stay predictable. Feel free to remove that head any time.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Brattt8525
One Nation under God.....leave the nation if you don't like it?

40's McCarthyism BULLSHIT Bratt.

This nation was founded by people trying to FLEE religious persecution, to worship .. OR NOT .. as they chose.

The Constitutional Convention CHOSE to recognize that and refused to allow christian doctrine to make it's way into the paper they were writing.


[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Tsa`ah]

Most of the people fleeing religious persecution were Christians. Quakers, Mennonites and the lot. The vast Majority of people who built America were Christians from those on the Mayflower, who stated that they had undertaken the voyage to advance the Christian faith (see Mayflower Compact), onward. Now I am not advocating a theocracy or violating the First Amendment by having the Government establish a religion. However I don't see any harm in getting Christmas off, it is/was the country's history long before the likes of McCarthy.

If I want to take time off to celebrate Eid Mubarak or help my friends celebrate Passover or Rosh Hashana (as I do every year), I take time off without pay. I don't believe I am being victimized because of it. I get Good Friday and Christmas off with pay as well.

I suppose one solution would be to allow each faith X number of days off with pay for faith based reasons, however non-Christians would have to would have to work the Christian holidays i.e. you get passover off but you have to work Good Friday. Of course this is unrealistic and would be a logistical nightmare.

As 78% of America is Christian (see CIA Factbook) it makes sense to keep the current system.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
[quote]Originally posted by Sylvan Dreams
Christmas is not a Christian holiday at its roots.This is a flawed statement. The concept of Christmas is not based on coinciding with a pagan holiday. The concept of a festival around the winter solstice obviously predates Christianity by millenia, but to go from there to saying Christmas is not based on Christianity is a bit much.
Originally posted by Janarth
Coincidence, I think not?

I think Sylvan is talking about the evidence from passages of the Bible that, given the seasonal happenings in the holy land, suggest that Jesus was not born in December.

-M

Thank you, that was exactly what I was saying.

Depending on your interpretation of it, the Bible also states that the symbols of this holiday (such as the decorated tree) are heathen symbols and not Christian. The passage is in Jeremiah somewhere. I'd look it up except Bible's make my hands burn.

Many people believe Jesus was born in September - October. (If anyone cares, I'm not among those people.)

How about NOBODY get the damned holidays off unless they use a vacation day. That way everyone wants to celebrate does so and everyone who doesn't opts out!

And Festivus is NOT a holiday at this current time despite there being at least two published books about it. Those who follow festivus have confused it with Thanksgiving. It's not an aluminum pole - it's part of the unassembled Christmas tree. You're not bitching at each other directly but rather spreading family "news" (read: gossip).

[Apotheosis]

google search SATURNALIA

look into the cult of attis (addis?)

look up the goddess eostre

:-X

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Yswithe

google search SATURNALIA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

look into the cult of attis (addis?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attis

look up the goddess eostre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre

:-X

[Ilvane]

They were fleeing religious persecution..not coming here to advocate for persecuting others.

It's silly, just celebrate the holidays, and if you don't, don't celebrate them.

And Bratt, Under God wasn't added to the pledge until the 50's. Thanks.

The Pledge in use today, written by Francis Bellamy in 1892, was modified by the U.S. congress in 1954 by adding the words “under God”..

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ](see http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm)

-A

[CrystalTears]

Well if this keeps up, I feel we're going to end up with religious persecution here since just displaying your faith in public is becoming a problem, and I have serious issues with that.

[ElanthianSiren]

Why do you say that CT? This isn't France, where if you're wearing a cross, you must remove it in public, and muslims are not permitted to don their veils.

-M

[CrystalTears]

Wanna bet? There have been teachers that have been told to remove their cross in schools.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Well if this keeps up, I feel we're going to end up with religious persecution here since just displaying your faith in public is becoming a problem, and I have serious issues with that.

This is just Backlash's Aka Trotsky's socialist attempt to remove religion from society since it worked so well in the USSR and China.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Wanna bet? There have been teachers that have been told to remove their cross in schools.

Your kidding me that is a violation of the first amendment.

[CrystalTears]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sch_clot1.htm

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11875

It winds up going to court and later overturned, but the fact that it's even an issue right now bothers me. Seriously.

[Edited on 11/11/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Warriorbird]

:shrugs: We also have creationist wackos who call themselves teachers doing things like ordering my sister's class to hold up their hands if they believe in evolution. My sister and a few other kids held up their hands. The teacher then said, "This is the face of the enemy."

I had a teacher tell me I was going to hell because I didn't attend a local church during a class discussion of religion effecting the Civil Rights movement at one point (same public school system).

Believe me, there's more than enough fundamentalist nonsense to keep "anti-Christian" forces from taking over the country. People talking about "all the horrible anti religious stuff" strikes me as patently ridiculous while conservative forces still control all three branches of the government and will be effecting the Supreme Court for decades down the road.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Back]

Now we are getting to the meat of the issue. Technically a teacher in a public school is a government employee. The question becomes should a government employee working for a government with a separation of church and state not be allowed to wear religious symbols, pray or otherwise observe at work? If they didn’t like the rule, don’t apply for a government job?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<And Festivus is NOT a holiday at this current time despite there being at least two published books about it. Those who follow festivus have confused it with Thanksgiving. It's not an aluminum pole - it's part of the unassembled Christmas tree. You're not bitching at each other directly but rather spreading family "news" (read: gossip).>>

Who the fuck are you to tell me if my holiday is or is not a holiday? Are you Dan O'Keefe? Did you invent the fucking thing? Do you determine whether or not religions are actually religions?

Oh my God I want to fucking stab you for being so stupid.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Warriorbird]

I see nothing wrong with religious symbols on teachers myself. With that said, I see quite a bit wrong with proslyetizing. Christmas != proslyetizing, so I don't mind it.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Sylvan Dreams]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<And Festivus is NOT a holiday at this current time despite there being at least two published books about it. Those who follow festivus have confused it with Thanksgiving. It's not an aluminum pole - it's part of the unassembled Christmas tree. You're not bitching at each other directly but rather spreading family "news" (read: gossip).>>

Who the fuck are you to tell me if my holiday is or is not a holiday? Are you Dan O'Keefe? Did you invent the fucking thing? Do you determine whether or not religions are actually religions?

Oh my God I want to fucking stab you for being so stupid.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

Who are you to insist it IS a holiday?

Your stabbing comment is offensive, btw.

[Bobmuhthol]

Your life is offensive to my idea that people aren't yet absolutely fucking brainless. I hope you get so offended that you have a simultaneous stroke and heart attack.

I guess everything that isn't Christmas isn't a holiday??

[CrystalTears]

Yeah but whether it's an official holiday or not doesn't mean that he can't follow it. Of course telling him that it's not a holiday is just as offensive to him.

[Ilvane]

I don't have a problem with the Christian wearing their cross..or praying at lunch or whatever..The problem I would be if one of them was trying to push their religion on me or people who don't believe the way they do. Now I have no problem believing that God exists, but I have no desire to go to a church..

I'd say this. If it was a pagan or Wiccan trying to insert Goddesses into the daily prayer at school, do you really think the religious folks would allow that as part of the curriculum? I would doubt that. If it were a Muslim wanting to include the teaching of their religion as well, do you think that would do it too? Where does it end? Should the pledge say "One nation under God, Goddesses, Buddha, Mohammed and no one?"

As for persecution, ever tried to wear a pagan symbol in public? People automatically think you are a Satanist. It's the ignorance that shocks me. If a student complained about a pagan wearing a symbol do you think they would let them still wear it?

Okay..I've vented enough..

:bleh:

-Angela

[Terminator X]

I never understood the idea behind bringing up the Pagan roots of Saturnalia as some kind of stab at Christianity. Trying to place blame or tarnish what is nothing more than a harmless season of more than one religiously-oriented holidays and themes for this time of the year != sense. I don't really have an issue of succumbing to inexplicable rage every time I see a menorah... or a Christmas tree, or a Kwanza basket, or a crescent and star, etc.

The holidays were always just a time to have fun, regardless of faith.

- The Termite

P.S. I am not religious in the slightest.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<As for persecution, ever tried to wear a pagan symbol in public? People automatically think you are a Satanist. It's the ignorance that shocks me. If a student complained about a pagan wearing a symbol do you think they would let them still wear it?>>

Hm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pagans identify themselves with a pentagram? I have a shirt that I got in Salem, MA, with a pentagram. Nobody has accused me of witchcraft. If someone complained, I guarantee that I'd still be wearing it and the offended would walk away disappointed.

[CrystalTears]

I don't know what schools you people went to that Christianity was shoved down your throat during the holidays. My schools NEVER brought up Jesus, God, the birth of Christ or anything like that. It was always about a holiday for sharing with family and exchanging presents to share your love for them, blah blah blah. And then we made construction paper wreaths, popcorn threads and those shrinkie dink ornaments you color and bake. Heh.

[Ilvane]

Well, yeah..problem is now CT that the religion is getting brought in..and sometimes trying to get legally entered into the schools.

:) I don't mind celebrating Christmas, I always enjoyed it myself.

-A

[Sylvan Dreams]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Your life is offensive to my idea that people aren't yet absolutely fucking brainless. I hope you get so offended that you have a simultaneous stroke and heart attack.

I guess everything that isn't Christmas isn't a holiday??

I hope a suicide bomber pays you a visit.

No I didn't say anything that wasn't Christmas isn't a holiday. If you read my other post you'd see I actually said I thought other holidays with a large following should be recognized as well. Not some holiday from a sitcom.

[CrystalTears]

Heh, what makes you think that Festivus doesn't have a large following?

[Sylvan Dreams]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I don't know what schools you people went to that Christianity was shoved down your throat during the holidays. My schools NEVER brought up Jesus, God, the birth of Christ or anything like that. It was always about a holiday for sharing with family and exchanging presents to share your love for them, blah blah blah. And then we made construction paper wreaths, popcorn threads and those shrinkie dink ornaments you color and bake. Heh.

I went to a public school. Jesus was in my textbook. We also did the construction paper ornaments and popcorn and shrinkie dink stuff among other things. We melted those red & white mints into ornaments too.

[CrystalTears]

What textbook is this?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I hope a suicide bomber pays you a visit.>>

So it is your wish for someone else to die just so I will die with them? You're a very wicked person. I just want you to have a simultaneous stroke and heart attack.

<<If you read my other post you'd see I actually said I thought other holidays with a large following should be recognized as well. Not some holiday from a sitcom.>>

You're so fucking stupid. OH MY GOD YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID. Festivus did not originate on Seinfeld. It was invented in 1966 by Dan O'Keefe, whose son, Daniel O'Keefe, a writer for Seinfeld, added it in that episode.

WHY ARE YOU AN IDIOT?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I went to a public school. Jesus was in my textbook.>>

What a coincidence. I go to a public school and I learned about Jesus, too. It's some crazy notion that they call "social studies," or, if you prefer, "history." They teach religion in this class because it is the study of the world and its behaviors.

I also learned about Buddhism in English class for the book Siddhartha. I learned about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in my world history class.

None of the aforementioned classes persuaded me to be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or a poor Indian man who loved the Buddha but did not learn from him.


Edit: Even in the last week, I've studied Catholicism and Judaism in French class, watching the movie "Au Revoir, Les Enfants." It's about the German occupation of France and the capture of three Jewish children who were being hidden for protection in a Catholic school.

But they must be SHOVING IT DOWN MY THROAT SO I WILL CONFORM!!!

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Bobmuhthol]

[Aaysia]

Religious Education was actually a class that was mandatory in high school for me. And yes I went to a public school. Volunteers from different religious backgrounds talk about their respective faith in class. If there wasn't someone for your religion or you were aetheist you could look at it as a free period to slack off/study whatever.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<If there wasn't someone for your religion or you were aetheist you could look at it as a free period to slack off/study whatever.>>

Making it.. not a class?

[CrystalTears]

No, to sit there and vent because they have to suffer through religion at all. ;)

[Aaysia]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<If there wasn't someone for your religion or you were aetheist you could look at it as a free period to slack off/study whatever.>>

Making it.. not a class?

they COULD stay and learn more about a certain religion if they were so inclined and showed genuine interest.

If not they were allowed to go to the library, or sit on the benches in the courtyard and read. Somewhat like a study period.

[Bobmuhthol]

Right. And a study is not a class. And that also makes it not mandatory.

[Aaysia]

:shrug: let's say in a way it was mandatory for me.

In my view as long as you're in school and you're learning something for a specific length of time. It's a class.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by xtc
Most of the people fleeing religious persecution were Christians. Quakers, Mennonites and the lot.

Most would be a stretch to say the least. Half would be pushing it. Considering there wasn't a denomination census, it boils down to common sense. Common sense tells me that the only differences between people making the passage between continents, you, and I would be education and technology. I don't know about you, but most people that I have had discussions with would be considered more agnostic and just call themselves christian because that is what they know.


The vast Majority of people who built America were Christians from those on the Mayflower, who stated that they had undertaken the voyage to advance the Christian faith (see Mayflower Compact), onward.

Again, your statement goes beyond stretching ... it's reaching beyond what is believable. Most of the people that came over were those with a debt. Some of the people coming over were intent on advancing their own theological views. The majority were escaping one type of persecution or another.


Now I am not advocating a theocracy or violating the First Amendment by having the Government establish a religion. However I don't see any harm in getting Christmas off, it is/was the country's history long before the likes of McCarthy.

Celebrating christmas as we do now was not something the settlers and colonist did. In fact, christmass as we know it began with the NE US aristocratic societies.


If I want to take time off to celebrate Eid Mubarak or help my friends celebrate Passover or Rosh Hashana (as I do every year), I take time off without pay.

Which is fine for you, and luckily ... you don't speak for those of differing faiths.


I don't believe I am being victimized because of it. I get Good Friday and Christmas off with pay as well.

Again, fine for you. Those of us that do observe non-christian events are stuck with it. Those observing, or just not caring, can get those days off and vacation with their family whenever they want. Those of us that don't not only have to take the time off, but we have to ... and I'm repeating myself here, burn the vacation, get the vacation denied, or take the time off without pay.

Those of us making a comfortable living don't feel the sting of that. We generally have more vacation time. The people performing manual labor or at the lower rungs of commerce and industry feel that sting heavily. Most of them will not get paid if they take the time off, their vacation will either get denied, or they're forced to use it if their employer just shuts down over the holiday season.

That you don't mind ... who gives a fuck? Really? Are you jewish? Just because you take the time off to help friends observe passover (it's not celebrated ... it's not a holiday) doesn't get you the "friend of a jew" ribbon. You're a tourist and have the comprehension of a tourist. You can slack off and not get paid for it ... your choice. It's not the choice of your friend.


I suppose one solution would be to allow each faith X number of days off with pay for faith based reasons, however non-Christians would have to would have to work the Christian holidays i.e. you get passover off but you have to work Good Friday.

You would be amazed at the number of jews volunteering to work those holidays so their co-workers can spend time with their families, even after getting the shaft job on their days of observance.


Of course this is unrealistic and would be a logistical nightmare.

Bull shit. It's not done because it would require thought and work. Management systems don't want to consider it because it interferes with the meaningless reports and self preservation tactics.

There aren't any logistic nightmares at all. It gives any facility the ability to operate 24/7. It's not hard to make sure a Jew is out of the plant/office well before sundown. If that requires a week or two of shift changes ... what's hard about that?

Everyone in my plant is given the opportunity to observe their days and what is the stress to my staff and myself?

"What days do you need off, need switched, and when do you have to be out, when can you come back?"

"In order for you to take christmass eve and day off with pay, I need you to switch shifts these days"


As 78% of America is Christian (see CIA Factbook) it makes sense to keep the current system.

I don't know about you, but I know well over enough people to say that figure doesn't hold any statistical probability. I'm sure if they asked Pat Robertson, he would agree. Then again he thinks anyone that has access to his network is watching ... never mind what the Nielsen ratings say. I've never been asked my denomination. I've never claimed any charitable donations to religious entities. I'm sure you'll get a resounding 100% response from the boards membership that no one from the government has asked them about religious affiliation.

So, I'm calling the CIA fact book an almanac of bullshit, with occasional truths.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Way to stay predictable. Feel free to remove that head any time. It's not my fault you continuously make blatantly false blanket statements. :shrug:
I know well over enough people to say that figure doesn't hold any statistical probability.There's no way you can possibly say this. What you can say is you know enough people for it to be statistically impossible, but for it to be improbable you'd have to know what percentage of people are Christian, in which case you wouldn't have to say anything about the people you know.

But hey, you're Tsa`ah, therefore you must be right, right? The CIA, psh, what do they know, you have wild assumptions on your side!
Originally posted by Sylvan Dreams
Thank you, that was exactly what I was saying.As I said, the fact that Christmas occurs right around the Solstice/Yule isn't in question. Noting this is entirely different from saying Christmas is not a Christian holiday at its root.
Depending on your interpretation of it, the Bible also states that the symbols of this holiday (such as the decorated tree) are heathen symbols and not Christian. The passage is in Jeremiah somewhere.The Bible says people can get divorced too. Those wacky Jews, y'know?
Originally posted by Ilvane
As for persecution, ever tried to wear a pagan symbol in public? People automatically think you are a Satanist.This reminds me of a story we read in high school.

A man is walking home from work, at night, through a bad part of the city. He sees a woman (who is white) walking in the opposite direction ahead of him. She hurriedly crosses the street and practically begins running away. The man (who is black) shakes his head, and can't believe how racist some people are.

He is making an assumption that the woman is afraid of him because he is black. Another entirely plausible explanation is that she is alone, at night, in a bad part of town, and views any man as a threat.

Even assuming that the telepathy of the pagan symbol-wearers is beyond question (call it an early Christmas gift), one must concede that it is entirely plausible for there to be a different cause of the "u r s8nist" reaction.

[Warriorbird]

Except when, y'know, you constantly got called a Satanist for wearing your KMFDM and NiN shirts occassionally. I mean only occassionally, too.

I'm sorry, Latrin, the world isn't all enlightened friendly sorts who only kindheartedly accuse people of Satanism when the rest of their character clearly shows it.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Soulpieced]

All of you should see the movie Crash.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
you constantly got called a Satanist for wearing your KMFDM and NiN shirts occassionally.Hell I can tell you're a Satanist just by your handle. REPENT!!!
the world isn't all enlightened friendly sorts Yet.

[Warriorbird]

Crash is a great movie. Well, if you're talking about the recent one. The older one is one very extended jokeish metaphor about California.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Except when, y'know, you constantly got called a Satanist for wearing your KMFDM and NiN shirts occassionally. I mean only occassionally, too.

I'm sorry, Latrin, the world isn't all enlightened friendly sorts who only kindheartedly accuse people of Satanism when the rest of their character clearly shows it.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Warriorbird]

Or given tracts, which you read because you find them interesting. You don't just have to be wearing KMFDM, you can be wearing the colors or veils of another religion, same thing will happen in the midwest (Grand Rapids, MI FTL). It happened on campus quite a bit to me.

It's sad that people who mean so well can be so ignorant, which brings me back to Hindu philosophy.

-M

ps. I had a teacher in third grade who told us that 'the Russian people are all slaves' I came home and repeated this to my dad, and he set me straight VERY quickly. This teacher was a jehovah's witness and would lecture us on god and hell quite often. Needless to say, she didn't teach in that district very long. If that's the kind of people being "persecuted" under these types of initiatives, more power to them. She was a horrible teacher.

[HarmNone]

I'm not going to quote the post to which I'm referring, as it was really, really dumb and doesn't deserve to be repeated. However, let's not be wishing for suicide bombers to be visiting anybody. Not only is it absurd to do so, in today's world it's utterly stupid.

In fact, why don't we just stop wishing death, illness, and other terrible things on each other? It gets old after awhile.

[Edited on 11-12-2005 by HarmNone]

[Hulkein]

Tsa`ah, how is it you know who came over into the country when, as you said, there were no statistics at the time; yet xtc is wrong?

The country was decidely Christian (and still is), just because there were no exact statistics doesn't mean you can say it's a stretch.

[Back]

I seriously think that government employees should never show their spiritual faith. If you are a government employee you believe in the government... meaning, man dictates man’s laws. If you don’t believe in that axiom, you have no place in government.

A person is free to worship as they wish, and in that, may govern as they worship. People who govern are elected. And in a Democracy, the majority rules.

[MangledKitty]

<<I seriously think that government employees should never show their spiritual faith.
If you don’t believe in that axiom, you have no place in government.
And in a Democracy, the majority rules.>>

Many instances exist where this is not the case, unfortunately. It seems like you're looking for the perfect government. The existence of humans prevents this from happening.


Love,
Bobmuhthol and not MangledKitty.

[Edited on 11-12-2005 by MangledKitty]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
[quote]Originally posted by xtc
Most of the people fleeing religious persecution were Christians. Quakers, Mennonites and the lot.

Tsa'ah
Most would be a stretch to say the least. Half would be pushing it. Considering there wasn't a denomination census, it boils down to common sense. Common sense tells me that the only differences between people making the passage between continents, you, and I would be education and technology. I don't know about you, but most people that I have had discussions with would be considered more agnostic and just call themselves christian because that is what they know.

Not a stretch at all. The countries they were leaving were primarily Christian. Today we have agnostics but we are talking about 100's of years ago, different period in time. These people were almost in entirety Christians.

xtc
The vast Majority of people who built America were Christians from those on the Mayflower, who stated that they had undertaken the voyage to advance the Christian faith (see Mayflower Compact), onward.

Tsa'ah
Again, your statement goes beyond stretching ... it's reaching beyond what is believable. Most of the people that came over were those with a debt. Some of the people coming over were intent on advancing their own theological views. The majority were escaping one type of persecution or another.

Those on the Mayflower stated on the Mayflower Compact their reasons for making the voyage. I don't think you can, 385 years later, insert your reasons in place of their's. As for the rest coming to the new world, whatever their reasons, they were primarily Christians

Tsa'ah
Celebrating christmas as we do now was not something the settlers and colonist did. In fact, christmass as we know it began with the NE US aristocratic societies.

Actually some of the ways in which Christmas is celebrated today pre-dates Christ.

LINK (http://www.holidays.net/christmas/story.htm)

Tsa'ah
Which is fine for you, and luckily ... you don't speak for those of differing faiths.

I am the product of differing faiths so I think I have a small voice.

Tsa'ah
A Those of us that do observe non-christian events are stuck with it. Those observing, or just not caring, can get those days off and vacation with their family whenever they want. Those of us that don't not only have to take the time off, but we have to ... and I'm repeating myself here, burn the vacation, get the vacation denied, or take the time off without pay.

Those of us making a comfortable living don't feel the sting of that. We generally have more vacation time. The people performing manual labor or at the lower rungs of commerce and industry feel that sting heavily. Most of them will not get paid if they take the time off, their vacation will either get denied, or they're forced to use it if their employer just shuts down over the holiday season.

I have yet to see anyone who uses vacation time for Christmas plant shut downs. Christmans shutdowns are always on top of regular vacation time. Most Unionized labour do ok for vacation time.

Tsa'ah
That you don't mind ... who gives a fuck? Really? Are you jewish? Just because you take the time off to help friends observe passover (it's not celebrated ... it's not a holiday) doesn't get you the "friend of a jew" ribbon. You're a tourist and have the comprehension of a tourist. You can slack off and not get paid for it ... your choice. It's not the choice of your friend.

No I am not looking for a ribbon but thanks for the offer. I may be a tourist at Passover but I am not a tourist at Eid. I have the outlook and comprehension of one who was raised as both a Muslim and a Christian and one who lives in the most ethnically diverse city in the world.

xtc
I suppose one solution would be to allow each faith X number of days off with pay for faith based reasons, however non-Christians would have to would have to work the Christian holidays i.e. you get passover off but you have to work Good Friday.

Tsa'ah
You would be amazed at the number of jews volunteering to work those holidays so their co-workers can spend time with their families, even after getting the shaft job on their days of observance.

No, it wouldn't surprise me at all. In most cases it is unnecessary as they are statutory holidays. For those in industries that work those holidays it makes sense to cover for one another.

xtc
Of course this is unrealistic and would be a logistical nightmare.

Tsa'ah
Bull shit. It's not done because it would require thought and work. Management systems don't want to consider it because it interferes with the meaningless reports and self preservation tactics.

There aren't any logistic nightmares at all. It gives any facility the ability to operate 24/7. It's not hard to make sure a Jew is out of the plant/office well before sundown. If that requires a week or two of shift changes ... what's hard about that?

Everyone in my plant is given the opportunity to observe their days and what is the stress to my staff and myself?

"What days do you need off, need switched, and when do you have to be out, when can you come back?"

"In order for you to take christmass eve and day off with pay, I need you to switch shifts these days"

Covering shifts would be easy enough. However if we abolish religious holidays as statutory holdiays, then every business is open on Christmas. If the majority of staff celebrate Christmas, you a very small % of workers to run a plant or shipping facility on that day, too small. So you have to shut down which brings back to where we started.

xtc
As 78% of America is Christian (see CIA Factbook) it makes sense to keep the current system.

Tsa'ah
I don't know about you, but I know well over enough people to say that figure doesn't hold any statistical probability. I'm sure if they asked Pat Robertson, he would agree. Then again he thinks anyone that has access to his network is watching ... never mind what the Nielsen ratings say. I've never been asked my denomination. I've never claimed any charitable donations to religious entities. I'm sure you'll get a resounding 100% response from the boards membership that no one from the government has asked them about religious affiliation.

So, I'm calling the CIA fact book an almanac of bullshit, with occasional truths.

Whatever the accuracy of the CIA factbook. I am sure most in America considers itself's even nominally Christian. Again enough to want the holiday off. FYI Pat Robertson doesn't speak for Christianity.

[Edited on 11-12-2005 by xtc]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Backlash
I seriously think that government employees should never show their spiritual faith. If you are a government employee you believe in the government... meaning, man dictates man’s laws. If you don’t believe in that axiom, you have no place in government.

A person is free to worship as they wish, and in that, may govern as they worship. People who govern are elected. And in a Democracy, the majority rules.

So in your perfect society private sector employees are allowed to show their faith but government employees aren't? If one wears a Cross, or a Star of David they are fired?

As a believer in civil rights you must believe that the rights of the majority do not include supressing the rights of the minority? Of course if one is to believe the CIA factbook, the vast majority believe in one faith or another, so by your reasoning we should allow the majority to bring back prayer in schools? or does that only work when make a secular argument?

[Ilvane]

XTC if we were to allow prayer back into schools, it would have to be all inclusive, so prayer for everyone..and that is just not possible.

You know, I would have no problem with a "moment of silence" where anyone could worship, pray or whatever they wanted in that time period. That was what my school used to do.

-A

[Jazuela]

I want to clarify something, that I believe was overlooked in responses to my posts. I have nothing against people choosing to celebrate or observe their own holidays, at their own churches/synagogues/mosques, on their own bodies (such as wearing a cross). What I object to is the government spending tax dollars on religious holiday displays in public or government buildings.

Christmas trees and menorahs don't belong on government property. Neither do any other *religious holiday* decorations (any decoration placed primarily to show observance or celebration of a religious holiday, whether that decoration is religious or not. Yes, Easter Bunny posters count.)

People aren't government property, therefore I have no right to demand someone remove their cross if they work for the government. But I -do- feel I have the right to demand that the department they work for not buy the cross out of the departmental funds.

As for the x-mas carols, I just really get tired of hearing the same crap over and over again, no matter where I turn. The rest of the year I can change the station on the radio. During the season, those songs are playing on every station. In every restaurant. In every supermarket. It's just really annoying.

[Edited on 11-12-2005 by Jazuela]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
one who lives in the most ethnically diverse city in the world. NYC could still kick your ass though.
Originally posted by Ilvane
XTC if we were to allow prayer back into schools, it would have to be all inclusive, so prayer for everyone..and that is just not possible. This is untrue for obvious reasons. For instance, THE ONE YOU HAD IN YOUR POST.

[OreoElf]

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
Its a part of the culture. People who dont do it should just ignore it, do their own thing and not be whiny. If other religions get so big so that the society has it ingraned into the system I wouldnt fault those either. Its a variance of human existence that is necessary. (Faith, I mean).

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by JihnasSpirit]


Aww and some people say the G-spot is only a bunch of neurons in the brain... Nevertheless ... Seperation of church and state is all well and good, but even though I'm not Christian, xmas brings kinda a warm feeling and I had good times in school... I agree with a lot Jazuela said and am kind torn on this issue because of the happy times at Xmas when I had fun at school...

[Edited on 11-12-2005 by OreoElf]

[Warriorbird]

:shrugs: Christmas is about family and presents and Santa.

[Danical]

most statistical analysis of faith, cia factbook included, does not do a good job diferentiating between identifying with a faith and practicing it . . .