US/Mexico border situation [Archive] - The Gemstone IV Players' Corner

Skirmisher

11-09-2005, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by Sylvan Dreams
IMO, I think smuggling immigrants should be a felony. ALL illegals, regardless of where they're found, should be shipped back to where they came from and their home country billed for it. You bet your ass if we start billing Mexico for every service we give illegals and for their return trip home, Mexico have a bigger interest in shutting the border.
I get confusing mixed messages from people regarding the Mexican-American border.

I tend to look at it in a very similar manner that I view the situation in Columbia and Peru in regards to coca production.

Do you think these people would be growing this plant in the amounts they do if the demand was not there? To save time, I'll tell you the answer which is no.

And where is the demand from? The US.

It's the same with the illegal workers here in the US. Do you think they would be coming here if US employers did not hire them?

So we create the environment to foster the behavior and then get angry when the other guys government doesn't stop the situation?

I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone on this board either directly employs or has in the past employed or has indirectly done so by patronizing a store/restaraunt and been served by an illegal worker. If not you, then your neighbor has a nanny that is illegal or something similar and you do know when that is the case.

How many of you then called INS to stop what you must have at some point of another known was this horrible illegal conduct?

The illegals working here is great for the Mexican economy and as long as it's beneficial for them, they won't do much to stop it.

The US has LONG looked to the south for cheap expendable labor.

If it were really so bad for the US economy do you think we would have allowed it to go on for as long as we have?

[Edited on 11-9-2005 by Skirmisher]

Caiylania

11-09-2005, 04:03 AM

Sad but true, Skirm.

Brattt8525

11-09-2005, 06:16 AM

I know that where I live we have a severe problems with illegals they are everywhere. I see them gathered in parking lots awaiting people who come looking for cheap labor to hire them for the day.

When my truck was broken into and my stereo ripped from my dash the police officer told me that they can't keep up with the crimes happening and most of the crimes committed like mine were by illegals. Before she came to my assistence she had just left Blockbuster where a couple of mexicans had walked in the door grabbed stacks of DVDS and merely walked out the door.

I know when I came to this country I had to go through such a stack of papers, fees and had to prove via my bank account/and sign a document that I would never become a burdern <IE welfare> to the State or I would be sent back to Canada. I even had two visits from Immigrations officers.

Warriorbird

11-09-2005, 07:00 AM

Make sure they all get paid a high minimum wage. Then the companies would stop hiring them en mass.

It boggles the mind the sheer numbers of illegals in North Carolina.

Brattt8525

11-09-2005, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Make sure they all get paid a high minimum wage. Then the companies would stop hiring them en mass.

It boggles the mind the sheer numbers of illegals in North Carolina.

Out of the 23 kids in my sons pre-K class all but 4 are mexican.

Warriorbird

11-09-2005, 07:17 AM

It's crazy. Two of the largest construction companies in the area employ veritable ARMIES of illegals. They've been reported, nothing happens.

Yet, ironically enough, a semiconductor company in the area employed a bunch of non Mexican illegals and there was a huge bust.

The companies are addicted to the cheap labor.

[Edited on 11-9-2005 by Warriorbird]

Artha

11-09-2005, 08:25 AM

If it were really so bad for the US economy do you think we would have allowed it to go on for as long as we have?
As powerful a bloc as the illegals are, there's not much elected politicians can do about it without fearing for their jobs.

Warriorbird

11-09-2005, 10:49 AM

You mean...as powerful a bloc as the people who like to hire illegals are.

:chuckles:

Back

11-09-2005, 11:07 AM

I can understand wanting a tighter border due to the threat of terrorism, but please spare me the illegals-are-taking-all-the-jobs bullshit. If you wanted a job you would get up off your fat, big-gulp drinking ass and get one.

xtc

11-09-2005, 12:29 PM

Every time I see a story on illegals coming to the US. I feel sorry for the people living in Border States. The amount of money and resources that are taken up by border communities to fight the situation leaves little money for anything else.

I love how the liberals like to blame Americans for the situation, nannies, cheap labour being exploited etc. Like there isn't a ring that forged documents for these people. Or how about raise the minimum wage. As if enough jobs aren't being lost to China because of the high price of union labour.

I applaud the minutemen for bringing attention to this situation and I have ZERO sympathy for the illegal immigrants. Every illegal immigrant in America steals a spot from another potential immigrant who is waiting in another country legally applying to get into America. The illegal immigrant’s first act is a crime.

I think the border needs to better protected, more border patrolmen (women) need to be put in place. The Mexican Government needs to become involved as well. The cost to the U.S. is massive in fighting this and if Mexico turns a blind eye to it then there need to be financial consequences. Companies that knowingly hire illegals should receive punitive fines.

Politicians are afraid to fight it because they are afraid of losing the Latino vote.

Brattt8525

11-09-2005, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Backlash
I can understand wanting a tighter border due to the threat of terrorism, but please spare me the illegals-are-taking-all-the-jobs bullshit. If you wanted a job you would get up off your fat, big-gulp drinking ass and get one.

I want to know who the hell you are talking to? And to add wow what a constructive post on your part.

Back

11-09-2005, 12:50 PM

How about we outsource more jobs so illegals have no more jobs to get?

And I wasn’t addressing anyone in particular Bratt, just people who like to blame all their problems on something other than themselves. I have no compassion for them.

Illegals are people who are in a bad situation and trying to make it better. That I have respect for.

Skirmisher

11-09-2005, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by xtc
Companies that knowingly hire illegals should receive punitive fines.

I reduced your post to the only thing worth reading.

And where are you from again?

Brattt8525

11-09-2005, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Backlash
How about we outsource more jobs so illegals have no more jobs to get?

And I wasn’t addressing anyone in particular Bratt, just people who like to blame all their problems on something other than themselves. I have no compassion for them.

Illegals are people who are in a bad situation and trying to make it better. That I have respect for.

You should change that to SOME illegals. I live in Texas where these illegals run around in vehicles with no insurance and when they hit you they take off. They are robbing stores, breaking into vehicles. I have no compassion for that at all.

As far as them trying to better themselves? hahahaha is that what they are doing when they take that 30 bucks someone paid them for the day and go blow it on alcohol? ahh gotcha.

Do you even live in Texas? or any other State that has an overflow of these illegals? BTW this is the main reason I am moving out of Texas, I can't stand the way it has become. My son gets put at the bottom of the pack in school because they arew too busy spending all the time talking spanish to the other 19 kids.

xtc

11-09-2005, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by xtc
Companies that knowingly hire illegals should receive punitive fines.

I reduced your post to the only thing worth reading.

And where are you from again?

In your opinion.

You would only tackle one area, so your initiative would fail. How about all the illegals working with forged documents? You couldn't fine companies hiring them.

I am a joint American/Canadian citizen currently living in Canada. Does the fact you don't live in a border state mean you aren’t entitled to an opinion on the matter?

Latrinsorm

11-09-2005, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Backlash
Illegals are people who are in a bad situation and trying to make it better. That I have respect for. Go go Gadget Anarchism!

xtc

11-09-2005, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Backlash
How about we outsource more jobs so illegals have no more jobs to get?

And I wasn’t addressing anyone in particular Bratt, just people who like to blame all their problems on something other than themselves. I have no compassion for them.

Illegals are people who are in a bad situation and trying to make it better. That I have respect for.

The idea that raising the minimum wage would get of illegals is ridiculous. I doubt companies that hire illegals feel compelled to pay them the minimum wage.

What about people that live in a bad situation who are legally applying to come to America? Do you have sympathy for them? Every illegal immigrant steals a spot from one of them.

Do you have sympathy for the border communities that are being overrun with illegals? The communities where the majority of their budget is being eaten up dealing with illegal immigrants.

Do you have sympathy for the farmers living in these communities who livelihood is being threatened because their farms have become a walkway for illegals? Crops flattened and destroyed, fences broken so livestock escape.

It is so easy for some to take the liberal party line on this rather than examining the situation as a whole.

Sylvan Dreams

11-09-2005, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Do you think these people would be growing this plant in the amounts they do if the demand was not there? To save time, I'll tell you the answer which is no.

And where is the demand from? The US.

It's the same with the illegal workers here in the US. Do you think they would be coming here if US employers did not hire them?

So we create the environment to foster the behavior and then get angry when the other guys government doesn't stop the situation?

I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone on this board either directly employs or has in the past employed or has indirectly done so by patronizing a store/restaraunt and been served by an illegal worker. If not you, then your neighbor has a nanny that is illegal or something similar and you do know when that is the case.

How many of you then called INS to stop what you must have at some point of another known was this horrible illegal conduct?

The illegals working here is great for the Mexican economy and as long as it's beneficial for them, they won't do much to stop it.

The US has LONG looked to the south for cheap expendable labor.

If it were really so bad for the US economy do you think we would have allowed it to go on for as long as we have?

[Edited on 11-9-2005 by Skirmisher]

Alright. Make it a felony to knowingly hire an illegal. A HUGE felony with a big ass fine. You can't say "you didn't know" the person wasn't legal. Slap on a huge fine on there and suddenly hiring some illegal for $3 dollars an hour in cash (or whatever) isn't as appealing as paying someone legal their min wage.

INS doesn't care about illegals.

I don't even think cops are allowed to ask for proof of citizenship or legal residence.

Skirmisher

11-09-2005, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by xtc
You would only tackle one area, so your initiative would fail. How about all the illegals working with forged documents? You couldn't fine companies hiring them.
Wrong, because the documents would come back as improper when the proper tax forms were filed and then if the employeer still did nothing they would definitely be liable.

I am a joint American/Canadian citizen currently living in Canada. Does the fact you don't live in a border state mean you aren’t entitled to an opinion on the matter?
The Canadian-American border does not quite equate the Mexican-American border. And knowing the backround of the person to whom I'm speaking allows me to put their commentary into more clear context and does affect the level of credence granted.

If joe shmoe comes on and says something about the UK and then Miss X comes on and refutes it you can bet i'll give the British resident a bit more weight on the matter.

Back

11-09-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by xtc
It is so easy for some to take the liberal party line on this rather than examining the situation as a whole.

Ha, I don’t even know what the supposed liberal party line is! I’m just telling you want I think.

[Edited on 11-9-2005 by Backlash]

Warriorbird

11-09-2005, 01:21 PM

My state has one of the highest percentages of illegals. It definitely isn't a border state, unless you count the ocean a border.

If you can't grasp that the "raise the minimum wage" notion is meant facetiously, xtc, you aren't getting it.

Until illegals just aren't hired this will remain a problem. That isn't happening any time soon.

Back

11-09-2005, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Brattt8525
Do you even live in Texas? or any other State that has an overflow of these illegals? BTW this is the main reason I am moving out of Texas, I can't stand the way it has become. My son gets put at the bottom of the pack in school because they arew too busy spending all the time talking spanish to the other 19 kids.

I never said it wasn’t an issue. I grew up in Cali so I know the score.

Brattt8525

11-09-2005, 01:23 PM

>>The Canadian-American border does not quite equate the Mexican-American border.<<<

What I find quite funny is that I a Canadian citizen was visited by INS and they were not very friendly. I had all the legal papers going through paid all of the money for said paper/filing yet they BUG me? Look what they allow with mexicans.....

xtc

11-09-2005, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Skirmisher Wrong, because the documents would come back as improper when the proper tax forms were filed and then if the employeer still did nothing they would definitely be liable.

....and what about those people who share SSN numbers? How long would it take for the system to figure that out? Correct name, correct address, correct SSN number. The guy just works two jobs. How long to spit back the ones using fake SSN numbers? One year, two years, three years?

Now how long will it take to find the employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants. What about hiring illegals for just a day or two, we would have to track all those people as well. While we are doing that will they Millions who try and cross the border illegally just stop?

The Canadian-American border does not quite equate the Mexican-American border. And knowing the backround of the person to whom I'm speaking allows me to put their commentary into more clear context and does affect the level of credence granted.

Well I am a US citizen who has lived in the states. I guess that gives me as much credence as you at least. You live closer to the US/Canadian border than you do the US/Mexican border.

xtc

11-09-2005, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by WarriorbirdIf you can't grasp that the "raise the minimum wage" notion is meant facetiously, xtc, you aren't getting it.

My apologies but you at times it is difficult to know whether you are being serious, sarcastic or facetious.

Warriorbird

11-09-2005, 01:30 PM

What I find quite funny is that I a Canadian citizen was visited by INS and they were not very friendly. I had all the legal papers going through paid all of the money for said paper/filing yet they BUG me? Look what they allow with mexicans.....

I find that ironic too. They busted up this local semiconductor business for having something like twelve illegals (mostly from Senegal) and called it a huge bust.

I'm sure if they busted our two largest local construction companies they could net like a couple thousand workers in a day.

My apologies but you at times it is difficult to know whether you are being serious, sarcastic or facetious.

My friends complain about that too.

:chuckles:

[Edited on 11-9-2005 by Warriorbird]

Skirmisher

11-09-2005, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by xtc
....and what about those people who share SSN numbers? How long would it take for the system to figure that out? Correct name, correct address, correct SSN number. The guy just works two jobs. How long to spit back the ones using fake SSN numbers? One year, two years, three years?

Now how long will it take to find the employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants. What about hiring illegals for just a day or two, we would have to track all those people as well. While we are doing that will they Millions who try and cross the border illegally just stop?

Well, you are the one asking how to stop them from coming. My answer was and IS the same, place the onus upon the employers. Make it so costly to get caught even infrequently that it is impossible to get ahead using illegal labor.

That WILL work. That much is not a question.

What IS a question is whether the US really wants to do that. We LIKE cheap labor. We LIKE to be able to afford nannies and cheap bathroom renovation and inexpensive restaurant prices. We can end the problem tomorrow if employing illegals became so expensive when caught that no one would do it but are we willing to pay that price?

The answer I guess will be if such legislation is ever enacted.

Well I am a US citizen who has lived in the states. I guess that gives me as much credence as you at least. You live closer to the US/Canadian border than you do the US/Mexican border.
True, so to perhaps explain where I am coming from I should say that outside of the Mexican border states I am confident that the NYC area has the highest number of illegal aliens. I am also hispanic and know more than one or two people who are now legal citizens who initially came up illegally. My family is highly active in the hispanic community and I speak with leaders from more than just one hispanic subsection on a regular basis.

And yes Bratt, I know how frustrating it is dealing with US INS as we are running a continuing effort to bring members of my family up so they may have a better chance for them, but more importantly for their children and it can be maddening at time.

ElanthianSiren

11-09-2005, 08:13 PM

Here's a ponderance: Why not just let them all in legally?

Make them file the same tax papers, work in the same conditions, etc? I never got the big thing made about immigration in this country. Technically, if you're opposed to immigration, unless you're native american, you should kick yourself out.

-M

Jazuela

11-10-2005, 08:14 AM

It's funny. Whenever I post, eventually someone brings up the fact that I work in fast food, as if working in fast food is the kind of job no normal intelligent American would want. Like it invalidates any opinion about anything I could possibly have. Like it makes me a second class citizen.

If I was to take opinions like that seriously, I'd think the only people who would want jobs like that are illegals, and that I'm somehow being grouped in with illegals as "people who take jobs no one else wants, the stupid bastards."

Fortunately I don't take opinions like that seriously. But it does beg the question for those who have those opinions: if all the people who have jobs you feel are bottom of the barrel, suddenly took you seriously and quit so they wouldn't be scorned...

Who would work those jobs?

Who would sell you your popcorn at the movies? Who would clean up the bathroom in the bar after you've spent the last hour being so drunk you barfed your brains out on the floor next to the toilet? Who would wash the clothes in the no-name hotels? Who would make the burgers at the fast-food joints?

Illegals do that, because those are the kinds of jobs so many of you aren't willing to work. They're beneath you. So the jobs are vacant, and the managers have to practically beg people to take them.

We can't find anyone to cover shifts for 2 of our workers who are out. One lost her baby and had to have a hysterectomy. The other is recovering from appendicitis. Both will be out for a week, and the other people who are willing to do the work, are already working two jobs each (and one is working three).

They are ALL hispanic. We don't even try to find a non-hispanic to do it, we've already been shown that no "natural-born english-speaking American" is even willing to consider the job.

It's honest work, it pays enough to get a homeless person a shared apartment, and yet even a homeless person isn't willing to apply.

The hispanics are though. We don't hire illegals, but there are many - MANY - places that do. Not because they can pay less (which they can, I suppose) but simply because they don't check to make sure the employee has a green card. If they can speak english well enough to tell the manager when they're available to work, that's all the manager really cares about.

It has to do more with a work ethic, I think. They look forward to being productive. They don't come in with a chip on their shoulder, all holier than thou, proclaiming that they're too good for such lowly work. Work is work, and if some stuck-up snob of an American doesn't want the job, then he can get the fuck out of the way so the Hispanic can take it.

When more american-born english-speaking legal citizens stop thinking they're too good for flipping burgers, then maybe there will be less illegals getting in line for the jobs.

AnticorRifling

11-10-2005, 08:18 AM

When more american-born english-speaking legal citizens stop thinking they're too good for flipping burgers, then maybe there will be less illegals getting in line for the jobs

------------------------------

I'm not too good to flip burgers but why would I? I can actually speak the local language so I can work somewhere else and not make minimum wage. You take away my ability to find a job that pays more and maybe I'll be asking if you want to Dipisize your meal. Hell even I know we don't care liter of cola.

I'm sorry but if you can't speak enough english to complete a fast food order than of course you're not going to make more than the lowest wage possible, illegal or no. Learn the language and open doors.

Jazuela

11-10-2005, 08:31 AM

I don't know about anywhere else, but the folks where I work start out at more than minimum wage. They get paid more than I do, because it's a different category of job. And I didn't start out at minimum wage either.

I only know the pay of one of the guys back there - he makes $9 an hour. He's been there longer than I have, but only by a year. I'm making $8 an hour. It isn't a lot, but I don't need a lot. Just grocery money and daily expense cash. Plus it gets me out of the house, gives me the opportunity to socialize for a few hours a day (cashiering can be a very social job when most of your customers are locals), and frees up any overtime hubby makes when he volunteers for it, so we can go on nice vacations every year.

These Hispanics at our shop (I can't speak for shops I don't work in) are hard working people, who came to the country not speaking much english at all. Because of their experience in this town, they've learned enough english to carry a conversation (though they get stuck on a few words here and there). Because of their presence, every one of us who are native-born are learning Spanish - which happens to be a gorgeous language. We have people from Equador, Mexico, Puerto Rico (yeah I know that's the US), and one from Columbia.

One of the best things about it, is that we're off the highway and have people come from all over the world stopping for lunch. So when hispanic visitors come, we have people who can translate if those visitors still don't know the language yet. I can usually help out when we get visitors from France and Quebec, but the folks in the back are the ones we turn to when we need help for visitors from Spain and other hispanic countries.

Brattt8525

11-10-2005, 09:34 AM

>>If they can speak english well enough to tell the manager when they're available to work, that's all the manager really cares about. <<

They should make sure they know WTF no tomatoes on my montery chicken dinner mean! Bastards.

As far as people always commenting on what you do for a living, I see more comments on your seemingly being an expert on everything. Your posts are novels and like this last one don't have much to do with the topic at hand. We are discussing illegals, not the happy productive legals that work where you do.

xtc

11-10-2005, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by xtc
....and what about those people who share SSN numbers? How long would it take for the system to figure that out? Correct name, correct address, correct SSN number. The guy just works two jobs. How long to spit back the ones using fake SSN numbers? One year, two years, three years?

Now how long will it take to find the employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants. What about hiring illegals for just a day or two, we would have to track all those people as well. While we are doing that will they Millions who try and cross the border illegally just stop?

Well, you are the one asking how to stop them from coming. My answer was and IS the same, place the onus upon the employers. Make it so costly to get caught even infrequently that it is impossible to get ahead using illegal labor.

That WILL work. That much is not a question.

Yes there is question as to whether it will work or not and how long it will take, if you use that as the ONLY approach to deal with illegal immigration. I outlined the reasons in my post. A multi-pronged approach is needed.

What IS a question is whether the US really wants to do that. We LIKE cheap labor. We LIKE to be able to afford nannies and cheap bathroom renovation and inexpensive restaurant prices. We can end the problem tomorrow if employing illegals became so expensive when caught that no one would do it but are we willing to pay that price?

The answer I guess will be if such legislation is ever enacted.

The fallacy of illegal immigrants being the only source of cheap labour and being good for the economy. In Canada we have a wealth of cheap labour provided by legal immigrants. Some industries pay by the job or piece work which is one way around the minimum wage. Legal immigrants will provide a wealth of cheap labour.

Well I am a US citizen who has lived in the states. I guess that gives me as much credence as you at least. You live closer to the US/Canadian border than you do the US/Mexican border.

True, so to perhaps explain where I am coming from I should say that outside of the Mexican border states I am confident that the NYC area has the highest number of illegal aliens. I am also hispanic and know more than one or two people who are now legal citizens who initially came up illegally. My family is highly active in the hispanic community and I speak with leaders from more than just one hispanic subsection on a regular basis.[/quote]

My views are against illegal immigration not immigrants or any ethnic group. My parents were immigrants as well.

New York has a population of 19,227,088. The number of illegal immigrants are 489, 000. This equates to around 2.5% of the population being illegal immigrants.

LINK (http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchbaff)

Texas has a population of 22,490,022. The number of illegal immigrants are 1,200,000. This equates to around 5.3% of the population.

LINK2 (http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research79e6)

Skirmisher

11-10-2005, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by xtc
Yes there is question as to whether it will work or not and how long it will take, if you use that as the ONLY approach to deal with illegal immigration. I outlined the reasons in my post. A multi-pronged approach is needed.
The fallacy of illegal immigrants being the only source of cheap labour and being good for the economy. In Canada we have a wealth of cheap labour provided by legal immigrants. Some industries pay by the job or piece work which is one way around the minimum wage. Legal immigrants will provide a wealth of cheap labour.
With the requirements to come to the US, the vast majority of legal immigrants are not coming to take a job with no healthcare and not even a weeks worth of job security. They will take lower paying jobs but still higher than what illegals get paid now and that is my point.

Originally posted by xtc
My views are against illegal immigration not immigrants or any ethnic group. My parents were immigrants as well.

New York has a population of 19,227,088. The number of illegal immigrants are 489, 000. This equates to around 2.5% of the population being illegal immigrants.

LINK (http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchbaff)

Texas has a population of 22,490,022. The number of illegal immigrants are 1,200,000. This equates to around 5.3% of the population.

LINK2 (http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research79e6)

Perhaps you missed this part.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
True, so to perhaps explain where I am coming from I should say that outside of the Mexican border states I am confident that the NYC area has the highest number of illegal aliens. .

xtc

11-10-2005, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Skirmisher
With the requirements to come to the US, the vast majority of legal immigrants are not coming to take a job with no healthcare and not even a weeks worth of job security. They will take lower paying jobs but still higher than what illegals get paid now and that is my point.

Again I disagree, people immigrate from countries where their life is in jeopardy or they work for less than Mexicans in Mexico. They gladly will take a job with no healthcare and no job security because it is better than what they get paid in their homeland and America has things like food and clean drinking water. In Canada legal immigrants work on farms and get paid for piece work, my bet is the pay is as low as illegal immigrants get paid in the U.S. if not less.

Perhaps you missed this part.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
True, so to perhaps explain where I am coming from I should say that outside of the Mexican border states I am confident that the NYC area has the highest number of illegal aliens. .

My apologies I did.

[Edited on 11-10-2005 by xtc]

Lyonis

11-10-2005, 06:14 PM

I look at the situation like this. I certainly didn't have a pow wow with my creator before I was born and ask to be an American. I didn't ask to be born into a decent family that would look out for me and help me to hopefully be a normal member of society. I consider myself very fortunate to be in the position I am today. I refuse to look down on others for simply getting lucky.

Others are not that fortunate. Growing up in Los Angeles, I'm only a few hours from Tijuana and I've seen the absolute poverty these people live in. It breaks my heart to see little children having to beg because they are starving. I've seen, from a distance mind you, the little shack towns that border the city. The ghettos I've seen in the states are by no means a playground but they ain't got shit on Mexico as far as poverty goes.

I've also seen how these people work. I've seen them work two full time jobs back to back only to be rewarded with an hour and half long bus ride back to a neighborhood that most of us would be scared to even drive through. I hire illegal workers myself on a fairly frequent basis for just about any hard labor that I feel isn't worth me breaking my back but is definitly worth me paying 10 bucks an hour for someone else to do.

Then you get the fuck ups. You got people in my city that can't speak a lick of English but sure know how to throw their set up, sell crack, and carry a gun. I agree that something must be done to stop these kinds of people. Not because all of those that cross the border are a menace but that they hinder those that would only want to make a better life for themselves in our country.

There is also the issue of terrorism. I hope for all those that seek to come to this country peacefully via the Mexican border, legal or not, that it's not through that border that someone will cause us harm. I'm sure the backlash would be horrible against even those that mean to do nothing more then try to prosper.