Official: 240 Proposal

[Fallen]

As with the 540 information provided, props go to Teylarun's player for pointing me to the information on the boards. Official proposal posted first, then GM responses to questions/comments in subsequent posts.

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Spell Description:

A well-trained spiritualist is able to use this spell to call upon a vengeful spirit to aid him during times of great need. These spirits go unseen and unheard until they choose to strike out on their master's behalf. While this spell is active, a percentage of attack spells cast by the player will be channeled by these vengeful spirits and cast upon their master's opponent. These spirits are usually more powerful and skilled with magic than their masters.


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Mechanics:

A player with this spell active will have a 60% chance of an automatic double strike for any single-target attack spells that he casts. This secondary cast of the spell will cost no mana. The percentage chance that a secondary attack will occur is increased by Spiritual Lore: Summoning. This secondary attack will have a CS/AS bonus of 25 to the player's normal CS with that spell, increased further by Spiritual Mana Control Ranks.

Furthermore, there is a possibility of third, fourth, etc. strikes with this spell. The percentage chance for third and fourth strikes decreases exponentially as the amount of strikes that ocurred has increased. Also, the percentage chance for subsequent strikes is based upon the level of the spell, with lower level spells granting subsequent strikes more often. This percentage is not increased by Spiritual Lore Summoning.

The duration will be thirty seconds.

This is our current plan for the spell.

Thoughts, comments?

Nilven


[Edited on 10-10-2005 by Fallen]

[Fallen]

It's unlikely that the duration would be increased without a significant decrease in the percentage to strike. We initially started with two proposals involving a 2-5 minute duration spell with around a base 15-20% chance to double strike, and a max double strike chance of 50% with a significant (read: around 200 ranks) of Summoning lore and no CS/AS bonus.

The spell isn't comparable to WoF because WoF is a defensive spell, which in general have not been well received when they are short duration. Even if these spells are very powerful. I had the same concerns you guys did and one of the points brought up to me by several team members was that players may dislike 140 for its short duration and thus its relegation to situational effectiveness; it isn?t comparable to offensive spells of a similar nature. Players, for example, have no qualms with the fact that 117 is a situational spell because situational offensive spells are substantially different in nature than situational defensive spells.

Nilven

[Fallen]

think people are missing the potential application of this spell. It's a known fact that as you learn higher level damage spells, they become less mana efficient, but they do more overall damage. And when it comes to higher level hunting, it easily becomes a goal of killing a creature as soon as possible to ensure your survival. For this reason, casters use their higher, less efficient spells.

Spirit Slayer (240) takes this approach and enhances it. It's all about front-loading damage. Depending on the spell and situation, you might not break even when casting Spirit Slayer, but you will slay your opponents at an accelerated rate. A decent cast of Fervent Reproach (312) can do 200 damage. With Spirit Slayer, you're looking at 400 from a single cast (from the Cleric). Most creatures won't survive that kind of onslaught. And it doesn't just stop there.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

Windi
Still, I know what 27 seconds is... it's a novelty spell. It's an Ooooooooo! Aaaaaaaa! with most characters having just enough mana to cast it maybe twice during a hunt without resorting to wracking.


Umm...that's the whole point. We want a spell that is going to take people back when they see it and we only want to see it used every once a while, but to have a powerful meaning when it is used.

I find this approach a lot more exciting than a spell that would last five minutes and offer maybe a 10-20% chance for a double cast.

Windi
You know that level 40 characters are usually only sitting on 130 - 150 mana.


Just because you can learn the spell at level 40 doesn't mean you should use it then. Very few Wizards use Major Shock (910) at level 10, or Clerics with Divine Fury (317) at level 17, etc. However, ignoring that, a level 40 caster still could make use of the spell when used in the appropriate situation. I know one of my personal characters falls into this area and I already have great plans for it.

Dakara
Is there a new 'rule' or 'guildeline' somewhere that I've missed that states something like "New spells cannot have a duration and/or must have a percentage chance of working that is less than 100 percent and/or have a ridiculously high mana cost to be effective."?


We're allowed more flexibility and power with spells when we can design them from a standpoint of the spell not always being active on the caster.

Zombie Hunter Irvine
Hugely important point, I didn't even think of that. A spell like this motivates people to blow their mana away. Of course, any short duration spell will, even a six or seven minute spell will have people rushing, but this is going to cause chaos.


Most hunters just roam their hunting ground, find a creature, kill it, and then repeat. If the creatures aren't there (because you killed them), then you're going to have to wait it out. Not real sure how it could cause chaos unless your arguing Clerics and Empaths are going to start poaching because they want to make use of the spell before it fades, but that is highly unlikely.

In addition, don't forget about the future possibilities of said proposal when up against "boss" mobs or the future high level hunting ground (level 130 mobs). You're going to need everything you can get to boost up your abilities to take down these foes and that extra CS/AS will be invaluable.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

Jim
That's sort of the problem though Estild. Your designing a spell for DragonRealms really. This game is a game of abstract combat and kill or be killed, and the creatures have far to many sudden ways to kill you instantly. You don't want to screw around waiting for a minute or thirty seconds for a creature to die.


Jim, you do realize that your statement only reinforces the benefit of this proposal? Read my previous post...

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=18&topic=6&message =355

Because of this spell, you are front-loading damage, and you will kill your opponents significantly faster. It's the exact opposite of "screw[ing] around waiting for a minute or thirty seconds for a creature to die" because most creatures aren't going to be able to withstand a double-strike of Divine Fury (317) or Fervent Reproach (312), or even a quad-strike of Bane/Smite (302).

Jim
You design this spell not to be used often in combat and honestly it simply will not be used. Sort of like Weaponfire, BoilEarth, Sandstorm and other spells of that ilk. Your simply asking for us not to use it by designing it like this. :(


Sorry, but Spirit Slayer is in a whole different category than Weapon Fire, Boil Earth, and Sandstorm. Any time you encounter a swarm, it has an excellent application. Any time you up against high TD/DS mobs, it has an excellent application. Any time you standing toe to toe with one of those mobs that can instant kill you, it has excellent application.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

Anailea
Everyone is planning on this spell actually working a full 60% of the time. Percentages don't work that way, especially in this game. Look at hinderance. It would be entirely possible to cast this spell and not get it to strike at all during the 30 second duration.


It's also possible to cast this spell and have every subsequent cast quad-strike. However, mathematically, 6 out of 10 casts will have a double-strike. This is the average, and should be used when evaluating the effectiveness of said spell.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

>Everyone is planning on this spell actually working a full 60% of the time. Percentages don't work that way, especially in this game. Look at hinderance. It would be entirely possible to cast this spell and not get it to strike at all during the 30 second duration<

The arguments about the RNG are endless, but I'll default to the standard position that it's random and most people, myself included, are subjected to observational bias. While in the realm of statistics it is entirely possible that you will go the full duration of this spell without seeing it fire, it's also entirely possible to go through the entire duration with it firing 100% of the time. We'll never hear posts about the latter. I've taken the work of previous GMs on faith in this regard, but I'm sure I'll get to the point one day where I'm bored enough to generate 100,000 random numbers and see what I get.

The funny thing about statistics is this: there's a 60% chance that your spells will double strike, and a 100% chance that you'll encounter a time with this spell when you don't get a single double strike.

There is a NJ woman that won her state's lottery twice in a 7 year period. The odds of you winning the NJ lottery twice are 1 in 17 trillion. The odds of someone winning the NJ lottery twice are 1 in 30.

Assuming no lag, you can get 9 casts off in the 27 seconds after the Spirit Slayer cast. Lets assume you can only get 8 casts off due to lag. The odds of not a single double cast are .00065536, or roughly 6.5 out of every 10,000 times you cast Spirit Slayer. The odds that it'll happen to you the longer the spell is out? A probability approaching one, the odds that'll happen to someone? It's certain at 100%.

Nilven

[Fallen]

>Everyone is planning on this spell actually working a full 60% of the time. Percentages don't work that way, especially in this game. Look at hinderance. It would be entirely possible to cast this spell and not get it to strike at all during the 30 second duration<

The arguments about the RNG are endless, but I'll default to the standard position that it's random and most people, myself included, are subjected to observational bias. While in the realm of statistics it is entirely possible that you will go the full duration of this spell without seeing it fire, it's also entirely possible to go through the entire duration with it firing 100% of the time. We'll never hear posts about the latter. I've taken the work of previous GMs on faith in this regard, but I'm sure I'll get to the point one day where I'm bored enough to generate 100,000 random numbers and see what I get.

The funny thing about statistics is this: there's a 60% chance that your spells will double strike, and a 100% chance that you'll encounter a time with this spell when you don't get a single double strike.

There is a NJ woman that won her state's lottery twice in a 7 year period. The odds of you winning the NJ lottery twice are 1 in 17 trillion. The odds of someone winning the NJ lottery twice are 1 in 30.

Assuming no lag, you can get 9 casts off in the 27 seconds after the Spirit Slayer cast. Lets assume you can only get 8 casts off due to lag. The odds of not a single double cast are .00065536, or roughly 6.5 out of every 10,000 times you cast Spirit Slayer. The odds that it'll happen to you the longer the spell is out? A probability approaching one, the odds that'll happen to someone? It's certain at 100%.

Nilven

[Fallen]

Carabele
If you have 240 running and then channel a spell that would be affected by it, would the subsequent 240-generated secondary strikes of the affected spell, if any, wind up using channel mechanics -- with regard to damage and that -- or simple cast mechanics?


The subsequent casts will use the exact same stats as the original cast, so it can use the channel mechanics.

Carabele
If (as I hope) having first channeled a spell results in any subsequent secondary strike given by 240 using channel mechanics, will this result in additional hard rt as well (as I hope not)?


No, because the spirit is casting the subsequent casts.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

<<They don't need them, Zyllah. Surely you have seen how extraordinarily low critter bolt DS is across-the-board. Surely you have seen how much lower critter TD is across-the-board to the Spirit and Empath circles. Furthermore, we have only one reliable TD-reducing option at this point.>>

I think you're missing my point still. Sorcerers have other options than directly dealing with a creature's full TD on every single cast. With Torment, you only need to beat the full TD on the first cast. With Maelstrom and Implosion TD isn't a factor. If you run into a high TD you get an automatic reduction with Curse. Clerics and empaths don't have these options. To help balance that, the TD's tend to be a bit lower because the TD needs to be beat every time. (Not to mention that clerics and empaths have no CS booster spells.)

<<Did you see the posts a few months ago on the Sorcery boards by someone who was astounded that their hunting partner Empath, ten levels lower than they, could rip apart the Griffins on the Keen while all they could do was stand there as their Implosion "ruffled it's feathers" and their Sorcery attack spells stood less than a 20% chance to hit the things (after being Cursed)!>>

My statement was that empaths don't come into their hunting power until quite a bit later compared to other classes. Using an example of someone in their 60's doesn't refute that. I have an empath friend who tears through the creatures she hunts. It's quite impressive. She's also in her 70's and is specifically trained to do that. Compare a level 20 empath with a level 20 wizard or sorcerer though. The sorcerer and wizard can hunt with very low mana cost spells and be extremely effective. The empath is stuck casting a 6 mana spell that is heavily lore dependant.

<<Limited? I don't think so. No to mention the fact that they are the Healer class in the game. The fact that they are not as proficient at hunting as some of the other classes should be a given.>>

Yes limited. Put my empath friend in the Stronghold and she's reduced to only one spell that will have any effect on the creatures. Empaths have what, three attack spells? That's limiting. Clerics have 5 attack spells, only one of which is equally effective on both the living and the undead. It costs 12 mana to cast. That's limiting.

I'm not trying to make this out that empaths and clerics suck as hunters. In the right conditions they excel. The fact that these conditions are more limited for them than other classes is a very salient point, however.

I agree that empaths shouldn't be as efficient at hunting as the other classes. And that still remains the reality. Spirit Slayer won't change that. Spirit Slayer also isn't going to all of a sudden make clerics into uber fighters either. Spirit Slayer is restricted to only enhancing the spells already known and used by these classes, so the limits are all still in place.

Zyllah

[Drew]

Personally I like it, at least with the short duration they are giving a lot of power.

[Kitsun]

Wouldn't mind seeing some lores being able to boost up some facets of the spell.

I'd love to be able to fling spells with this on top of rapidfire. Mmmm.

[Drew]

Wow, I didn't even think about that, rapid fire imbeds + this spell would be really deadly.

[Drew]

Not to mention that this will be a huge CvC tool.

[Kitsun]

Unfortunately, rapidfire can't be imbed. Can have a wizard cast it on you but no imbedding.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Drew
Not to mention that this will be a huge CvC tool.
:yeahthat: I can't see it being used for anything else really.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't see why it would be used for CvC. If first move = win, why would someone waste time by casting this when it doesn't necessarily help?

[Fallen]

If I saw someone prep that spell in the middle of an argument, he better be able to breath in a vacuum.

[Makkah]

I like this idea infinitely more than the proposed 540...

[Sean]

I'm gonna jump on the.. this is a garbage spell that I wont bother using bandwagon.

[Artha]

Duration makes it useless.

[AbnInfamy]

So how useful could this be with some empathic link though? Would you have enough time to throw a link on 3 or so creatures and then blast them all with a multi-shot shatter?

[Drew2]

Better not get used to that, seeing as how Empaths theoretically lose the 200's when Minor Mental comes out.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Tayre
Better not get used to that, seeing as how Empaths theoretically lose the 200's when Minor Mental comes out.
In 2009.

[Himmy]

I'd rather just shatter them all one by one than take the time and mana to ward all three with link, cast 240 and then shatter them all.

[Shonison]

I intend to use it almost entirely for CvC combat. Obviously it's a spell to use before you ambush someone, rather than something you cast in front of them. Couldn't exactly post that on the official boards though. Heh.