Banned Books Week

[Ravenstorm]

Once again, the American Library Association is protesting censorship and celebrating the freedom to read what you want to read. It's Banned Books Week (http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bannedbooksweek.htm).

So read one of the ten most challenged books of last year:

"The Chocolate War" for sexual content, offensive language, religious viewpoint, being unsuited to age group and violence

"Fallen Angels" by Walter Dean Myers, for racism, offensive language and violence

"Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture" by Michael A. Bellesiles, for inaccuracy and political viewpoint

Captain Underpants series by Dav Pilkey, for offensive language and modeling bad behavior

"The Perks of Being a Wallflower" by Stephen Chbosky, for homosexuality, sexual content and offensive language

"What My Mother Doesn't Know" by Sonya Sones, for sexual content and offensive language

"In the Night Kitchen" by Maurice Sendak, for nudity and offensive language

"King & King" by Linda de Haan and Stern Nijland, for homosexuality

"I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" by Maya Angelou, for racism, homosexuality, sexual content, offensive language and unsuited to age group

"Of Mice and Men" by John Steinbeck, for racism, offensive language and violence

Or pick from one from the list of the top 100 (http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bbwlinks/100mostfrequently.htm) most challenged books from the 90s.

Raven

[Tsa`ah]

Censorship movements never cease to amaze me.

Take any hard line conservative pseudo christian house wife who isn't given enough sex by her politician husband ... antics in censorship ensues. It should be a damned sitcom.

These are the same people that wanted John Denver's "Rocky Mountain High" banned because they thought the entire song was a drug reference.

[HarmNone]

Sheesh! Who the hell finds it necessary to challenge books? Don't read the damned thing if you don't like it!

Sometimes, I wonder if I'm living in an insane asylum and someone forgot to tell me! :scared:

[Heshinar]

Censorship like Political Correctness is bullshit. Those that practice it need to be locked away together.

They both are thought control that doesnt work. It is better to bring this out and let children and parents discuss what is happening and let the child learn to understand reality and what is good and bad.

Too many people want the Governments to legislate morality and how to act because they lack the will and intelligence to do so themselves.

[Andreal]

Of Mice and Men and I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings are banned books? I read those in High School... They were in my School Library. Not really bad at all.

[Artha]

I read The Chocolate War in like 6th grade...I can see why they want to ban it, even though it was a good book.

[Anebriated]

Of Mice and Men and I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings are banned books? I read those in High School... They were in my School Library. Not really bad at all.

Same.

[Parkbandit]

Just because it's written in a book, does not automatically make it something I want my 9 year old kid reading. Some of you people make it sound like there is some sort of artistic freedom for anyone who writes a book.

While I agree that sometimes the over zealots go overboard on their book banning, I also think some of the other side zealots protect any book, no matter it's content.

[StrayRogue]

Such things the PMRC are fucking retarded. People who actually believe in such things really need to die.

[Terminator X]

...And last, but not least, The Bible and The Koran for all of the above, plus a few minor infractions that happen to have killed just a couple million people since its 1st edition publication...

[Warriorbird]

High school library != 9 year old kids reading something

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Artha
I read The Chocolate War in like 6th grade...I can see why they want to ban it, even though it was a good book.

So why would they want it banned?

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
While I agree that sometimes the over zealots go overboard on their book banning, I also think some of the other side zealots protect any book, no matter it's content.


I just think reading books inspire thought.

Even books like The Turner Diaries have a place and only scare me when those who find refuge in it would ban other books that show it for what it really is. Freedom of though and freedom of expression and good educations trump all those sad attempts to preach hate, so yes let them all publish the books they want.

In my opinion it's those with the hate in their hearts all the while professing love outside that seem to behind most of these book banning drives.

[Gan]

Some additional information:

Background Information: 1990–2000
1990–20001

Between 1990 and 2000, of the 6,364 challenges reported to or recorded by the Office for Intellectual Freedom (see The 100 Most Frequently Challenged Books):

1,607 were challenges to “sexually explicit” material (up 161 since 1999);
1,427 to material considered to use “offensive language”; (up 165 since 1999)
1,256 to material considered “unsuited to age group”; (up 89 since 1999)
842 to material with an “occult theme or promoting the occult or Satanism,”; (up 69 since 1999)
737 to material considered to be “violent”; (up 107 since 1999)
515 to material with a homosexual theme or “promoting homosexuality,” (up 18 since 1999)and
419 to material “promoting a religious viewpoint.” (up 22 since 1999)
Other reasons for challenges included “nudity” (317 challenges, up 20 since 1999), “racism” (267 challenges, up 22 since 1999), “sex education” (224 challenges, up 7 since 1999), and “anti-family” (202 challenges, up 9 since 1999).

Please note that the number of challenges and the number of reasons for those challenges do not match, because works are often challenged on more than one ground.

Seventy-one percent of the challenges were to material in schools or school libraries.2 Another twenty-four percent were to material in public libraries (down two percent since 1999). Sixty percent of the challenges were brought by parents, fifteen percent by patrons, and nine percent by administrators, both down one percent since 1999).

1The Office for Intellectual Freedom does not claim comprehensiveness in recording challenges.

2Sometimes works are challenged in a school and school library.
_________________________________

I think that material not deemed appropriate by the officials where that book will be introduced. As I intend to monitor the TV and the Internet, I also think that monitoring the books which are available or read, with regards to children or adolescents, is part of being a responsible adult. Some topics, ideals, and images are just not appropriate for the young human psyche during certain times of development.

[Edited on 9-25-2005 by Ganalon]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Take any hard line conservative pseudo christian house wife who isn't given enough sex by her politician husband ... antics in censorship ensues. . So damn true it hurts.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Take any hard line conservative pseudo christian house wife who isn't given enough sex by her politician husband ... antics in censorship ensues. . So damn true it hurts.

Thirded, along with whomever mentioned that the Bible and Koran should be there as well if that's the standard.

Tipper Gore can rot for this crap. When I was a teenager and read Mice and Men and Huckleberry Fin, my reaction to the racism was to raise an eyebrow and roll my eyes at how backward the racist characters were. I don't think teaching children that sex, racism, and bad language don't exist via cookie-cutter fuzzy stories is the solution.

-M

[xtc]

A good old fashioned book burning........good times..... reminds me of my old buddy Pat Robertson.

[HarmNone]

Why ban the books? A book is a book. If you don't believe the material in a book to be suitable for your child to read, you are responsible for monitoring your child's reading material. The rest of the world is not.

Children are not stupid. If they're old enough to understand the material, they're going to have enough discernment to decide whether or not what's being said fits in with their belief system as it is developing. If they don't understand, they'll most likely bring the material to their parent for discussion or, if it's sufficiently over their heads, pass it over.

Never did my parents arbitrate what I could, or could not, read. If I had questions, those questions were answered at a level I could understand. My parents were involved and encouraged reading rather than acting as "book marshals". To me, that is as it should be.

[Showal]

It reminds me of the American Dad episode about masturbation when they try to clean up TV.

"what did I tell you about that son?"

"Only perverts and democrats do that dad"

[xtc]

To be serious, I do think that books need to be age appropriate. Schools do need to pick books that are suitable for school libraries.

[HarmNone]

The problem is, xtc, what's suitable to one person may not be suitable to another. Who decides what's suitable?

[xtc]

Originally posted by HarmNone
The problem is, xtc, what's suitable to one person may not be suitable to another. Who decides what's suitable?

School board, school trustee, PTA, mix of the aforementioned. You wouldn't have a book on sadomasochism in a little kids school. You can't put every book, ever published in every school library. Choices have to be made. I am not a fan of censorship but recognise that different books are appropriate at different stages of life.

[Skirmisher]

Eh, I don't think people are finding lots of BSDM how to manuals in school libraries.

The problem is one of degrees and how to stop when you say that you will just ban this book. okay...this one too, but no more. grrrr, ok those four also but thats it, really, I mean it... and so an and so forth.

[HarmNone]

I don't believe one would find a book on sadomasochism in a children's library anyway. Such a book would have no readership at that level because little children wouldn't understand what it was about. Even if a little child got his/her paws on such a book, they couldn't begin to understand it. It's waaay over their heads.

It's always possible to take the extreme and find a reason why that extreme shouldn't be somewhere. However, that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed is those people who feel it's their right to decide what's right for everyone and to ban anything that they feel isn't suitable from their subjective viewpoint. To me, that's unacceptable.

[Skirmisher]

HarmNone's posts for example.

Totally unacceptable.

They all must go.

Oh, and Ban Wezas too.

[HarmNone]

Ban me! Ban me! You oughta take a shot and can me! :D

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I don't believe one would find a book on sadomasochism in a children's library anyway. Such a book would have no readership at that level because little children wouldn't understand what it was about. Even if a little child got his/her paws on such a book, they couldn't begin to understand it. It's waaay over their heads.

It's always possible to take the extreme and find a reason why that extreme shouldn't be somewhere. However, that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed is those people who feel it's their right to decide what's right for everyone and to ban anything that they feel isn't suitable from their subjective viewpoint. To me, that's unacceptable.

The problem lies with 2 groups of people. Group #1 - "BANNING ANY BOOKS IS WRONG, NO EXCEPTIONS" and Group #2 - "ANY BOOK THAT HAS 1 BAD WORD OR CONCEPT WILL BE BANNED IMMEDIATELY!"

Trouble is.. it's not just black and white. There are books out there that I do not want my 11 year old daughter reading and I cannot be around my daughter 24/7/365. I need to believe that SOME books out there are not suitable for certain age groups and that they will not be in the school libraries of those age students. I am not of the belief that all books are sacred and that they should be available to anyone. If that were the case, there would be porn in the elementary library. Penthouse Forum wouldn't be in that plastic little wrapper behind the 7-11 counter.

Each book should be measured just like movies and games are.. by the specific age group and available to that age group and above only.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Ban me! Ban me! You oughta take a shot and can me! :D

Sung to the tune of 'Sue me'.

Raven

Where I really start to get wary is when they start banning books like "Of Mice and Men", literary works with lots of relevance to learning. What's next? Parts of history to risque so we stop teaching that? Sometimes what really happened is a lot worse than what any fiction book can have.

- Arkans

[DeV]

Any book a kid can't find to read in his school library he can just as easily find in his local city library. It's just that easy. I do agree that some books aren't suitable for a minor, but some of the books on that list are ridiculous to say the least.

[Edited on 9-28-2005 by DeV]

[HarmNone]

I'd rather have the choice of what my child reads lie with me, not with some group of people I don't know, and who don't know my child. Call it personal preference...a preference for personal responsibility.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I'd rather have the choice of what my child reads lie with me, not with some group of people I don't know, and who don't know my child. Call it personal preference...a preference for personal responsibility.

But as a parent, what is stopping you from going to the public library or the local bookstore and picking it up for your child?

Like DeV, I too believe that some of those books on the list shouldn't be there. But, I also believe that just because it's a book, does not automatically make it sacred, no matter the content. Some books do not belong in my child's library.

[HarmNone]

The original post did not specify school libraries, or young children's libraries. It spoke to the issue of banning books, period. Again, we've taken the extreme and tried to make it relevant to the discussion. It isn't.

Do I believe that pornographic material should be available in children's libraries? Of course not. However, neither do I see pornographic materials available in children's libraries. To me, that's a moot point.

[Skirmisher]

Alright Parkbandit, I'll bite.

While I do not argue that there are surely books out there that would serve little in the way of furthering a young child beyond learning some foul words and decidedly adult sexual practices, I do argue with vagueries.

Name the books, let us see those you take issue with and I think we can probably agree.

I will however object with giving some other small group of people or some individual, a far worse prospect, that power.

School libraries do not have infinite budgets and I feel relatively secure in saying that someone going into any random school library in this country would be hard pressed to find something truly obscene. I think if they were just buying one copy of EVERY book printed this would be a different discussion, but they do not and this is not.

[Tsa`ah]

A parent and a parent alone is responsible for their child.

If you do not want your child going to a public library or book store to gain access to materials you do not want them to read, then it is your responsibility as a parent to ensure that they do not.

Granted you can't be with a child 24-7, but that is always a very weak excuse. I know what my children bring home, I know where my children are. My children know the consequences of doing something they know they're not supposed to do. While it's not likely they'll find much interest in porn, it is my responsibility to react if I ever find that they have developed an interest.

I'm surprised to even hear an inkling of support on this subject from a republican as it always seemed to me that they didn't want government baby sitters. It's not uncle sam's responsibility to raise children. By allowing a governing body to decide what is and is not appropriate for the sociological and psychological development of our children, you are in fact giving the go ahead nod for them to take charge, in some fashion, of your parental responsibilities.

[Tisket]

I am not of the belief that all books are sacred and that they should be available to anyone. If that were the case, there would be porn in the elementary library. Penthouse Forum wouldn't be in that plastic little wrapper behind the 7-11 counter.

I find it odd that all the 7-11's I have visited have the risque magazines at the general eye level of the average 5 year old. Often in a rack in front of the counter.

Ban 7-11's!!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Alright Parkbandit, I'll bite.

Name the books, let us see those you take issue with and I think we can probably agree.


As embarrassed as I am to say... it's been a LONG LONG TIME since my ass has been in a library.. I DO remember a book that I had access to in middle school. For us, that was 4th - 6th. It was a book titled something like "Book of Lists". It was a pseudo-reference type book that had strange lists in it. Top 10 tv shows by year, top 10 sports by spectators, etc...

There was a reference to something like "Top 10 sexual positions" and "Top 10 sex acts". I learned more from that book than I did from any 'experience' I had up at that time. We read that book from cover to cover.. looking for 'dirty' lists.

At the time, I thought it was way cool. Looking back, I still think it was way cool, but I certainly don't want my 11 year old daughter knowing that doggie style is the 3rd most popular intercourse position behind missionary and spooning.

I have no issue with the Catcher in the Rye, Huck Finn, etc.. but I certainly don't agree that every book is sacred just because it's a book. I don't agree that every book should be in every library.

That's my only point. Don't read anymore into it than that.. because you would be incorrect.

[Parkbandit]

Oh.. and my parents never knew I was reading such a book because I was in the school library. They had no idea and no control over it.. and I had pretty protective parents.

Again, that's my point.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I'd rather have the choice of what my child reads lie with meUnless you personally dispose of all copies of the books you don't want your kid to read, that will never happen. Any kid worth his or her salt will get access to what they want, because
Children are not stupid.and I'd bet that's the motivation behind the parents' objections. It's probably awfully illegal to just traipse into libraries and throw books in the trash, so they lobby the people in charge to do so.
Originally posted by Skirmisher
I feel relatively secure in saying that someone going into any random school library in this country would be hard pressed to find something truly obscene.Having worked in a school library, I'm sorry to disappoint you. :(
Oh, and Ban Wezas too.Well we can all agree with that.

What I find truly curious is the article only makes mention of 1 book being actually banned (Bless Me, Ultima). Did anyone else find data on which books were actually BANNED the most?

[HarmNone]

My children read many books I didn't pre-approve, as I read many books my parents didn't pre-approve. There was no need for pre-approval. I, and my children, were free to ask questions about anything we didn't understand, and we got a straight answer. If it flew over our heads, as much of the more adult material did, it never occurred to us to ask a question. We didn't understand enough to know there was a question to ask.

What is pornography to you may well not be pornography to me, Latrinsorm. I think that's an important point, personally.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm.
Originally posted by SkirmisherI feel relatively secure in saying that someone going into any random school library in this country would be hard pressed to find something truly obscene.Having worked in a school library, I'm sorry to disappoint you.
Alright.
I would appreciate you naming some of them for us though so we may see if we all agree with your opinion.


Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Oh, and Ban Wezas too.Well we can all agree with that.

Thank god for some things! :D

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I would appreciate you naming some of them for us though so we may see if we all agree with your opinion.It's a book called "Plexus" or "Nexus" or something like that. In fact, those may actually both be books in the vein I'm talking about, I'm not quite sure. While I don't personally consider them pornographic, I'm positive I would have at 14.
Originally posted by Harmnone
What is pornography to you may well not be pornography to me, Latrinsorm. I think that's an important point, personally. We live in a society that has a pre-set standard for sexuality in public media. What you or I consider pornography is irrelevant for the purposes of what should be removed from a public setting. If you want to argue against censorship *in general*, I think that deserves it's own thread.
My children read many books I didn't pre-approveYou make my point for me. :shrug:

[Warriorbird]

The Bible would be banned under most of those restrictions. That one always amuses me.

[HarmNone]

How, Latrinsorm, does the fact that my children read books I did not pre-approve prove your point?

Firstly, they knew they were allowed to pick books for themselves, and not required to ask my approval. Secondly, the reading of those books brought about some discussions that served to educate them, and to bring out questions that might not otherwise have come forth. In the end, it was a good experience for them, and for me.

I wouldn't change it, and am very glad my reading materials were never subjected to control, as well. Enlightenment? Yes. Education on issues that were beyond our ken? Yes. Parental control of our reading materials, or those of my children? No. I feel we benefited far more from the lack than we would have from the existance of such control. You, of course, are welcome to differ. :)

[Parkbandit]

So Harmnone..

Let's say you have 10 year old daughters.

You would have no problem with them reading any book in print today?

You would have no problem with the school library having any book available to them during the day?

While I realize these are 'extreme' circumstances.. so is your view in my opinion. There are always going to be some form of censurship in this country. That is why porn is not available to our kids. That is why "How to kill your school mates in ten easy steps" is not in our public libraries.

Again, I think we agree in principle that stories like Huck Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird shouldn't be banned.. I think we differ in the opinion that all books should be worshiped just because they are books.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I think we differ in the opinion that all books should be worshiped just because they are books. Maybe it's just me, but I don't get that impression at all from Harmnone's posts on the subject.

I think school libraries do a very good job of sorting out the books that are and are not in the best interests for the young minds of today.

What's next... prohibiting schools from teaching sex education? People are okay with their kids buying a rated M video game but aren't okay with Huckleberry Fin or I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. Ridiculous.

[HarmNone]

I don't deal in extremes, ParkBandit, for reasons that, to me, are obvious. In most cases, extremes do not apply; therefore, I find it foolish to address them. Should an extreme arise in my life, you can be sure I shall address it at the time. I've never found the need to do so.

I don't enjoy pornography. However, I am not here to decide that you shouldn't enjoy it. I rest assured that there is not any blatant pornography in the school library. Should I find that there is, I will deal with that issue.

As for my imaginary 10-year-olds, I wouldn't have a problem with them reading anything that might draw their attention. My 10-year-olds didn't go to the library alone. That was a family experience. They were never drawn to any book that was pornographic in nature, since there was no blatant pornography there. There was no pornography in my home. I did find a few Playboy-type magazines hidden under my 15-year-old's mattress at one time. I simply moved them to the top of the bed when I turned the mattress. I figured, once he found that I had found them he'd ask any questions that might have presented themselves. Sure enough, he did. ;)

Like I said, I never had a problem, nor did my children. I do not believe that the open attitude toward reading fostered in me by my upbringing, and carried on by me in raising my children has warped any of us. You, again, are welcome to differ. :D

[Parkbandit]

I agree that extremes do not work. I also don't believe you are warped. :)

I DO believe you are being simplistic saying that libraries are family affairs. Are you trying to tell me that your child NEVER ever went to the library, school or public, without you?

I gave you my example above.. the "Book of Lists" or whatever it was called. Certainly, I don't think I was harmed in reading the top 10 sexual positions.. but you believe a book like that would be ok for my 11 year old daughter to read in the school library?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I gave you my example above.. the "Book of Lists" or whatever it was called. Certainly, I don't think I was harmed in reading the top 10 sexual positions.. but you believe a book like that would be ok for my 11 year old daughter to read in the school library? Do you believe that your daughter doesn't already know where babies come from? Honestly...

Also did that book have any other sexual references in it or just the top 10 sex positions?

[HarmNone]

My children went to the school libraries without me. However, since they couldn't drive and the closest library wasn't in walking distance, they didn't go there without a parent. What they could find to read in the school library was quite fine with me. They never brought home a book from there that I found to be improper.

As to reading a book about the 10 most common sexual positions in the school libarary at 11 years of age, I'd really have no problem with it; although, I don't believe such books were available in their school libraries. If they had been, my kids would have been the first to get their mitts on them and bring them home! Sexuality is a natural thing and doesn't concern me overly much. My kids were raised to ask questions, and I'm sure if they'd read such a book, they would have been brimming over with them. :)

In this day and age, I'd be far more concerned with violent video games than with anything of a sexual nature. Sex I can explain. Violence is unfathomable to me.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I gave you my example above.. the "Book of Lists" or whatever it was called. Certainly, I don't think I was harmed in reading the top 10 sexual positions.. but you believe a book like that would be ok for my 11 year old daughter to read in the school library? Do you believe that your daughter doesn't already know where babies come from? Honestly...

Also did that book have any other sexual references in it or just the top 10 sex positions?

You are talking about what.. 30 years ago almost for me? I know there were at least two sexual type lists in that book.

So my daughter knows where babies come from... so that makes it ok for a "reference" book to be in the middle school library that ranks the best sexual positions? So I suppose next it would be fine that because she knows where babies come from.. that we should have pictures of big schlongs in a book.. you know, to show what they look like. Books about how to orally please a man should be available now too?

It's a damn slippery slope.. ain't it.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Oh.. and my parents never knew I was reading such a book because I was in the school library. They had no idea and no control over it.. and I had pretty protective parents.

Again, that's my point.

Heh. There's a major difference between you and my children. Had one of mine found something like that in the school library, they'd have checked it out and dragged it home for discussion! If it couldn't be checked out, they'd have dragged what they'd gleaned from it home for discussion. They weren't usually shy about such things, nor did they fear to bring them to us, so we would have known the book was there.

At that point, considering there were 4th graders with access to the material, I'd probably have mentioned it to the librarian and the principal of the school. For my children, I'd have had no problem. However, I'm well aware that not all 4th graders would fare well when confronted by too much information too soon.

I'm really rather surprised such a book was available to you at that age. I never found that to be true of school libraries; at least, not in my experience.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I'm really rather surprised such a book was available to you at that age. I never found that to be true of school libraries; at least, not in my experience.

Don't get me wrong.. it was a very cool book. It was equally fun showing it to people that didn't know about it.

But.. as a parent of 2 little girls, I think I would flip out on their librarian if that book was there.

And yes, I had access to it in middle school. I don't think we realized it was there until 5th grade though.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
I'm really rather surprised such a book was available to you at that age. I never found that to be true of school libraries; at least, not in my experience.

I'm fairly certain it's safe to say that it was just overlooked among all the other lists. And that the Book of Lists also did not give a blow by blow description of how to achieve the most satisfying orgasm using said positions.

That there's a line in a book stating that one of the most popular sexual positions is called the flying trapeze certianly doesn't give it an X rating even if there are 9 other positions mentioned in passing and not once described in detail.

When a grade school library has the Complete Works of the Marquis de Sade, leather bound edition, then maybe there'll be somehting legitimate to complain about.

Raven

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
You are talking about what.. 30 years ago almost for me? I know there were at least two sexual type lists in that book.30 years ago... I won't even touch that one. What I will say is that I'm betting you haven't checked your daughter's library now to see if that book is available now and if it is, you know where to voice your concerns. That is your duty as a parent.


So my daughter knows where babies come from... so that makes it ok for a "reference" book to be in the middle school library that ranks the best sexual positions?No, I'm not saying that makes it ok. I'm saying so what, a book in your childhood school library had two lists that ranked sexual positions. I bet it wasn't detrimental for you then and it probably wouldn't be for a kid even now. I'm also almost willing to bet that you didn't see any books of a sexual nature on the banned list so I'm not sure why your limited example is of that much concern.
So I suppose next it would be fine that because she knows where babies come from.. that we should have pictures of big schlongs in a book.. you know, to show what they look like. Don't they show what a penis looks like in sex education?:?: I could swear they do. But no I don't think anything like it of an explicit nature should be available to children. If a parent wants their kid to know what a penis or a vagina looks like, they should be able to make those decisions privately. This is also the reason consent forms are necessary when sexual education is taught in schools.

And again with the extremes. Things don't seem as bad when you focus in reality.

The slope is only slippery when there is no boundary between what is actually there and what could be there (extremes).

[HarmNone]

My mother practically cut her teeth on Grey's Anatomy, as did I. There are plenty of pictures, but none are pornographic. They're illustrative.

Now, I'm not familiar with this Book of Lists. Did it contain pictures of these positions, or of "shlongs"? Did it contain detailed descriptions of said positions, or simply what they are called? If pictures and detailed positions were involved, I can understand the concern of some parents. However, if not, the words are going to fly high over the heads of most 10-year-old girls....or, at least, they would have flown over mine, and probably over my daughter's. We would have had no idea what was even being discussed.

[Terminator X]

Hm. Yeah, the second paragraph of ParkBandit's post (ID# 445421) is great :thumbsup:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Now, I'm not familiar with this Book of Lists. Did it contain pictures of these positions, or of "shlongs"? Did it contain detailed descriptions of said positions, or simply what they are called? If pictures and detailed positions were involved, I can understand the concern of some parents. However, if not, the words are going to fly high over the heads of most 10-year-old girls....or, at least, they would have flown over mine, and probably over my daughter's. We would have had no idea what was even being discussed.

Not sure about you.. but the words that I didn't understand at the time were explained to me by my more 'knowledgable' peers. Here is where we would differ I guess.

I would vote to have this type of book removed from my child's school library, where you would have no problem with it being there.

Call me old. Call me old fashioned. Call me a conservative. But I'm going to have enough hell to go through once my daughters start dating.. I certainly don't think it's fine for an 11 year old girl to know that having sex doggie style is more popular than having sex standing up.

:shrug:

[xtc]

I am with PB on this. I have no problem with a list of books that are banned in a school library. I would rather err on the side of caution. Parents can't be at the school library during the day to supervise their children's reading. What one parent may find acceptable another would protest to, so when a book is doubt ban it from the school library. We aren't talking about book stores or public libraries here simply school libraries. If there is a book that a parent wants to introduce a child to, it’s a parent prerogative to do that. Similarly it is a parent’s prerogative to decide which books their child can't read which is why banning questionable books from a school library is a good idea.

[DeV]

Of Mice and Men
Harry Potter
Goosebumps
Lord of the Flies
Are you there God it's me Margaret

Give me a fucking break.

[xtc]

Originally posted by DeV
Of Mice and Men
Harry Potter
Goosebumps
Lord of the Flies
Are you there God it's me Margaret

Give me a fucking break.

If I remember correctly Of Mice and Men has some sexual suggestiveness in it that may not be appropriate for young kids.

Harry Potter, I am guessing religious Christians, Jews and Muslims are objecting to it. Witchcraft is against God according to the Old Testament.

Goosebumps never heard of it.

Lord of the Flies, I am guessing is deemed inappropriate for young children, had some violent chapters in it.

Are you there God it is me Margaret. Atheists must be upset with this one.

I am guessing you picked the tamest books on the list.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
How, Latrinsorm, does the fact that my children read books I did not pre-approve prove your point?Because you cannot simultaneously know this and state that
If you don't believe the material in a book to be suitable for your child to read, you are responsible for monitoring your child's reading material.
Did it contain detailed descriptions of said positions, or simply what they are called? ... We would have had no idea what was even being discussed.Welcome to the Google revolution. ;)
Originally posted by DeV
People are okay with their kids buying a rated M video game If they all were, there wouldn't be a rating system.
I'm also almost willing to bet that you didn't see any books of a sexual nature on the banned list In fact, the most challenges in any category were for sexual explicitness. I haven't seen any data/lists for actual book bannings, so I can't go into that.

[DeV]

Yes, I picked some of the tamest on the list. Also, most that were readily available when I was a grade school honors student. Most except one are books I read as a child on that list alone.

Your explanations are without a doubt truthful, but where do you draw the line. I certainly didn't feel traumitized from reading Of Mice and Men. Now reading the history of Nazism and Hitler in 4th grade was a different matter altogether. I think it all boils down to these matters being of opinion and when it comes to explicit sexual materials I feel the school library system has a pretty good handle on what's allowed and what's not. At least from my point of view.

[Parkbandit]

I have no problem with my children reading any of the books on the list DeV supplied.

See.. I'm not a complete book burning Nazi.

:)

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
If they all were, there wouldn't be a rating system.I guess I should have said [some] people. Perhaps that makes it easier for you to comphrehend my original point.


In fact, the most challenges in any category were for sexual explicitness. I haven't seen any data/lists for actual book bannings, so I can't go into that. I did see The New Joy of Gay Sex on that particular list. I think it's safe to say that is one book coupled with The Joy Of Sex that I've never seen in a public school library. The argument of what is sexually explicit and what is not presents a significant factor in all of this.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by DeV
I think it's safe to say that is one book coupled with The Joy Of Sex that I've never seen in a public school library

That's because the atempts to ban books aren't limited to school libraries but public ones as well.

Raven

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I have no problem with my children reading any of the books on the list DeV supplied.

See.. I'm not a complete book burning Nazi.

:)

Heh. I don't think anybody thought you were, PB. There are some here about whom I might harbor a doubt. You ain't one of 'em. :smilegrin:

[DeV]

Which is a huge problem for me personally. School libraries I can completely understand limiting exposure on certain books to children. Public libraries are public domain. If a parent doesn't like what's available there then they need to turn in their library card and get the fuck out. Or they can monitor their children 24/7, and let the rest of us thinking, breathing adults make rational decisions for ourselves so that we don't have to concern ourselves with what's in the best interest of someone else's child in a PUBLIC library.

[HarmNone]

Agreed, Dev. I do believe the contents of school libraries should be monitored for age-relevant content. However, public libraries are public libraries and, as such, are available to the public. I strongly resent others telling me what I can read, or what I can choose to take home to read with my children.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by HarmNone
How, Latrinsorm, does the fact that my children read books I did not pre-approve prove your point?


Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Because you cannot simultaneously know this and state that

Of course I can. I did.


Originally posted by HarmNoneDid it contain detailed descriptions of said positions, or simply what they are called? ... We would have had no idea what was even being discussed.


Originally posted by LatrinsormWelcome to the Google revolution.

Ahem. Not knowing the date of publication of the book under discussion, and being aware that there are many and varied books of lists available today, a search through Google would have been a bit silly. Therefore, I ask questions. I've found it a very useful way of gathering information.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Ahem.The point I was making was that through Google, one can find all sorts of pages/pictures describing any phrase one can think of (or find), including the sexually explicit ones.

[Warriorbird]

And what bearing does this have on libraries?

[Latrinsorm]

Harmnone's claim was that a kid finding something beyond their understanding (for instance a list of sexual positions) would be stumped and therefore not in any way impacted by such a discovery. My claim was that with the advent of Google, this is no longer the case.

[DeV]

I know... Ban Google!

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Harmnone's claim was that a kid finding something beyond their understanding (for instance a list of sexual positions) would be stumped and therefore not in any way impacted by such a discovery. My claim was that with the advent of Google, this is no longer the case.

That's the precise reason I would advocate for very close supervision of young children on the internet, Latrinsorm. The internet is a powerful tool. Like all powerful tools, it can be used and misused.

[Jazuela]

When I was in grade school, each grade had a section in the school library. We could go to any of the lower-grade sections, or our own section, but we weren't allowed to visit the higher-grade sections.

Books were available in age-appropriate categories, seperated by floor-to-ceiling bookshelves.

If I knew of a book in a higher section, I'd have to tell my teacher I wanted to read it. She'd send a note to my parents, who would have to sign the note giving permission. And then, the librarian would get the book for the student, removing the need for the student to enter the section himself.

I don't see why this is even an issue, if such a system can be re-visited (or if it isn't already in place).

If a 4th grader was caught wandering through the 6th grade section of books, they'd be politely - but firmly - escorted back to their own section.

We didn't have any banned books that I'm aware of; I remember reading most of the books on many of these lists back then. We just had to wait until we were of the appropriate age or in the appropriate grade. Some of them were even required reading for our class.

[Rainy Day]

I think strictly dividing up age sections in a school library is much too rigid. From what I remember, most books in the school libaries and the children's section of the public libraries were marked with the age level of the book. (Do they still do that? I don't have kids so no idea.) That served as a guide. But a guide is much better than restricting.

I was an advanced reader so was usually reading books ahead of my grade level. But if I hadn't been able to enter that area of the library to scan the shelves and look to see what the books were about, how would I have known which titles to ask for? Keeping a child stuck reading books for 3rd and 4th graders when their reading level is that of a 6th grader isn't what I'd call a sound educational practice.

I think the book with the lists in it is a good example for this discussion. I don't think it's really appropriate for a school libary and I'm sure was included on accident. I would agree to it being removed. But it also demonstrates that it being there was pretty harmless. So you read about a sex position called doggy style and get a few snickers out of it as you discuss it with your friends. Can anyone actually point to how reading that and snickering over it causes any actual harm? It's like looking through stacks of old National Geographic issues at your friend's house to find the pictures of naked aboriginal people. It's something kids do and is a natural part of growing up.

RD

[xtc]

I have still have no problem banning SOME books from school libraries. As far as public libraries it maybe wise to separate books into age appropriate sections.

None of the books Dev listed offended me and I would have no problem with "my children", (if that ever happens) reading them. However I firmly believe that parents should decide what their child is exposed to. As such banning certain books in school libraries and age appropriate sections in libraries would help achieve that goal. I am against all censorship for adults in the western world. Once one is 18 it is his/her right to read about a hot Italian chick getting it on with a variety of mammals....:lol:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc

Once one is 18 it is his/her right to read about a hot Italian chick getting it on with a variety of mammals....:lol:

I waited until the movie came out.. MUCH more enjoyable.