Perception and Higher Levels

[badmojo]

So. Perception is iffy at best for younger levels, however there are a few places where advanced perception training is required post level 30.

On the moon, for instance, to enter the Sheruvian monestary, or to search out the pathway to get to vruul, magru, and myklians. Perception also seems to be needed to search for the pathway to get to Koar's Shrine/the Rift entrance it seems.

So just how much perception is needed by those sorcerers out there who can search out the pathway for the Shrine/Rift by themselves? Is it tied to level, the same way that one can't enter Darkstone very young? How much perception do you have, and how easy/difficult is it to search?

It seems to me if it's a simple X amount of perception ranks to get into the Rift, this would be a good minimum/reason to train in it. Plus the ability to access current and potentially future hunting areas elsewhere.

[Gan]

Considering how vulnerable sorcerers are to ambush and ambushing critters are eventually found in places such as OTF. Also considering the power of focused implosion with the more perception ranks you have... I'd say 1x perception would be advantageous, and therefore thats what I've done with my sorcerer.

[Fallen]

Once I finish getting to 2x with Arc Symbols, I am going to 2x Perception. It is one hell of a great skill to have.

[Soulpieced]

Coming from a bard perspective, I've never had any use for perception. Currently have 25 ranks, and I've never really had any strong desire for more.

[Terminator X]

badmojo


I once tried to get one of my gems that had the bad mojo curse casted on it by a really powerful sorcerer and it kind of sucked.

[Asha]

The best part of having 2x perception is seeing well trained rangers walk in and out of a room when they think they're well hidden.
Apart from that it's good for finding the bent spike and the ledge.

Oh and for not being murdered straight out when you're ambushed.
.... and pretending it's GS3 when perception meant some hidden bonus to implosion.

[badmojo]

I have to say, my character was 1x perception under GS3 and I saw no improvement to Focused Implosion -- the power of the spell seems the exact same to me under GS4, now with very minimal perception training. Then again, I really didn't use it much as a hunting spell until lv60-70ish, so perhaps the perception bonus was more noticable when younger, or only for greater than 1x training?

I know this Perception bonus for FI info was posted on the official Simu Sorcerer boards quite a ways back, but I dunno. Seems dubious. Kind of like on-again, off-again rumors of perception supposedly helping you find [more] treasure on critters.

Guess it's a moot point now anyway.

[Drew]

Perception definately does not help you find more treasure on critters.



My main character is 1.5x (going up to 2x) for ambush aiming purposes, everything else is a nice bonus.

[Edited on 9-12-2005 by Drew]

[mgoddess]

I also know that perception helps with the guild illusion skills, if you ever wanna go for them... my lil' sorceress was in the process of dropping her perception ranks when she got into the guild and started on the illusions, and it completely sucked without the perception. (I also think I read on GS4Sorcerer.com that 0.5x to 1x'ing should be just fine for use with the illusion skill.)

[Janarth]

My sorcerer is 2x aim, 1x perception and 1x in SMC and EMC. That said, I vape like-level about 50% of the time, the rest of the time (on a fresh critter, standing, spelled) I usually do either 50 damage, or 120 damage. I -always- kill on the second cast, if it lives through the first. I guess 708ing its leg for the stun and putting it prone might make me never have to cast two FIs, but...I'm lazy.

Just stating this fyi...if you don't have that kinda success maybe its the critters you hunt, or maybe perception makes a difference? dunno.

[Asha]

Perception makes no difference to implosion.
Simple.

[Janarth]

Drayal, can ya post the link to the red name's post where thats said, so we can put it the rumor to bed then?

[Fallen]

I am attempting to get the exact factors which play a part in Implosion from Nilven. He has promised (sorta) to tell us, but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.

[Asha]

<<720 · Implosion [IMPLOSION]
Duration: Immediate

Type: Attack

This spell will destroy all of the air around the target(s) in a specific area, subjecting them to 'vacuum' injuries. As the air rushes back into the area (a moment later), the target(s) will not only be subjected to the force of the returning air, but it is likely that surrounding objects will fly at them, potentially striking them and doing added damage. This spell can be truly devastating.

There are two versions of this spell, focused (single target), which requires skill training in Spell Aiming and unfocused, which affects all characters/creatures/objects in the area.

Additionally, training in Elemental and/or Spiritual Mana Control reduces the Mana Point cost of focused Implosion.
While both focused and unfocused Implosion can be useful, the unfocused version can harm innocent bystanders in the caster's room and in surrounding rooms. >>

Firstly I cannot find the document to prove that perception does not factor in 720.
It's something that was said, once or twice, very randomly by a 'name in red'.
It's as common knowledge as first aid no longer aids 705.
Perception did once make a difference, but that was back in GS3.

Believe it or not.

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by Drew
Perception definately does not help you find more treasure on critters.


wow, you are so incredibly wrong its funny

[Janarth]

I'm just skeptical...Romulus posted back in GS3 it definitely did factor, albeit only a small amount, and now everyone says it doesn't but can't even pull the post. You may be right, you may not. Not trying to be a prick about it, I'm just trying to end the propagation of half truths.

Right now, no one seems to know positively (either by empirical experiments or a GM saying so) that perception does or does not factor into FI. The only thing we do know, it definitely DID in the past.

If it -might- help, has ancilliary make-me-rich benefits, and is necessary to get into certain places AND keeps me alive against ambushes...sign me up, 1x perception :)

[Asha]

At least 1x in it for purposes other than 720, since there is NO documentation proving it does help the spell.
If it's eventually proved it does matter to the spell I'll quit GS and learn to play the tuba instead.
But yeah, perception is vital.

[Czeska]

I did fine with no perception as an empath until I was 50ish. I had other priorities.

Now I'm working my way up to 1x. Getting stuck in an area with 40ish creatures cause I couldn't see a damn crack made me sad.

[Janarth]

Drayal, you ever taken any kinda law? Familiar with onus? If something -was- true, the onus is on you to prove its -not- true. In the absence of contrary evidence, its still considered true. We all know Romulus made a post where it was said perception played a role, thats a fact. Now I was nice, and said "no one knows for sure":

Quoting me:
Right now, no one seems to know positively (either by empirical experiments or a GM saying so) that perception does or does not factor into FI. The only thing we do know, it definitely DID in the past.

Why do you have to beat your drum and insist you're right; even go so far as to say you'll quit if you're wrong. You couldn't just concede the same as I did - you don't know for sure either way? Well, I'm gonna go ask on the officials for someone in red tonight. I think I'm right, but for you, I'm gonna hope I'm wrong.



Drayal wrote:
At least 1x in it for purposes other than 720, since there is NO documentation proving it does help the spell.
If it's eventually proved it does matter to the spell I'll quit GS and learn to play the tuba instead.
But yeah, perception is vital.

[Asha]

:lol:
Man I wouldn't have said anything I already have if I wasn't witness at some point, to a GM saying this.
Just becouse I can't find the thread where this was said doesn't make me a liar.
Anyway, train in what you like.
It seems hearsay is all you have to base your beliefs of perception and 720's involvement to eachother, too.
Maybe if they would jst tell us for real, the facts instead of laughing while we try to figure it out between ourselves.

[Asha]

Oh and the part where I said I'd quit if I was wrong to go learn to play a tuba. .
WTF, how can you take that seriously?

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Drayal
It seems hearsay is all you have to base your beliefs of perception and 720's involvement to eachother, too.


Read what I said about onus, then look up hearsay, and retract your statement. And yeah, I'll ask on the officials tonight, hopefully to put this thing to bed.

I'm at a loss why you're continuing to beat the drum on this! Whatever, Drayal is probably right! I'm gonna go ring my bell and tell the streets.

Its almost 5 anyway, my time, time for drinks.

[Asha]

Please, go have a drink.
Relax.

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by Janarth
blah blah blah blah blah


jesus fucking christ, die already. or do something, just make sure it involves Sing TFU

[Drew]

Originally posted by hectomaner

Originally posted by Drew
Perception definately does not help you find more treasure on critters.


wow, you are so incredibly wrong its funny


This has been confirmed over and over by GMs. If you have some conflicting information please feel free to prove me wrong.

[Jonty]

Drayal, you ever taken any kinda law? Familiar with onus? If something -was- true, the onus is on you to prove its -not- true. In the absence of contrary evidence, its still considered true.

The documentation says nothing about FA helping FI. So, if I say it does... it's true until a GM says it's not?

[Asha]

If I've seen a name coloured red, state the things I claim, then I'll (foolishly?) stick by them.
Now, if you say FA helps FI, that's just fucking stupid and I'd think you were taking the piss.
I've been trying to point out from the beginning, I'm not a liar and I wouldn't point any of this out if I hadn't seen proof.
I won't wade through the mountains of official forum posts which don't have a search function.
Anyway, I've posted for a gm to prove me wrong or right.
Just stfu and let's wait and see.


[Edited on 9-13-2005 by Drayal]

[Asha]

Here's the post. All the quotes are a little confusing, so here's the summary. Rheisia posted a question about implosion. Someone responded that perception helps with implosion. Ildran then stepped in to set the record straight.

Apparently Ildran failed to specify the Ildran Officiality Index (IOI) rating of the post.

<< GS4-ILDRAN

<< Re: Demons and Necros and Spells, oh my! ? on 1/1/2005 6:53:12 PM 5684

<< >>She's maxed in aiming. 54 trains, hunting wind wraiths, 61. Her implosion is maybe 50/50 for an instant kill. You know, bits, bwahahahahaha! Is that just a function of the difference in level between her and the wraiths, or is there another factor...? - Rheisia

<< >We've been told that perception helps a small amount.

<< Actually, it might have been while you were gone, but Nilven took a look a while back and Perception doesn't affect Implosion. I'm not sure if the idea that it did came from a mistaken statement by a GM or a player theory that turned into assumed truth, but in either case, it's incorrect :) - Ildran >>


There.
Although you'll probably still think it's bullshit.


[Edited on 9-13-2005 by Drayal]

[mgoddess]

Originally posted by Drayal
the Ildran Officiality Index (IOI) rating

I've always wondered what the heck those IOI's were in his posts...

[Janarth]

Jonty, you're a moron. When FI came out, Romulus - the GM who coded it - said perception factored into FI. So, if a GM who coded the spell said FA affected FI, in the absence of contrary information, yes I would believe you. But did a GM every say that? NO. Go back and learn to read, your ignorance is showing in your one line retort that failed.

I made my argument because the only post I'd ever seen by a GM said that perception did matter. It was a common misconception, as evidenced by Rheisia's quote inside Ildran's post. I had never seen a GM post otherwise until Drayal got a response from Ildran.

Yes, thats good enough for me; obviously its been changed or Romulus lied to us all (I'm leaning towards it was changed). I'm a creature governed by logic; I tend to believe what was told to me by the person most knowledgable in the subject until I hear someone equally as knowledgable say otherwise; exactly why I wouldn't believe Jonty's "FA helps FI" and was skeptical of Drayal's recollection that it no longer did.

So there, thanks for doing the research Drayal, I stand corrected.

Hecto, Sing TFU?

[Asha]

Edited to :
No no, I'll be nice since Janarth was good enough to accept correction.
Good work, man.

[Edited on 9-13-2005 by Drayal]

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by hectomaner

Originally posted by Drew
Perception definately does not help you find more treasure on critters.


wow, you are so incredibly wrong its funny


This has been confirmed over and over by GMs. If you have some conflicting information please feel free to prove me wrong.

Last I heard, and I'm gonna start saving posts, but I remember reading, perception only aided in finding treasure on select critters like frost giants where you find the blue gems; not on all critters for finding amount of silver, items, etc.

[Asha]

Janarths last post.

I heard the same thing.
But we have no proof, so it's probably moot.

[Gan]

I do know that without perception training, my wizard could not find gold dust when hunting the glacier in Illistim. Take that at face value.

I suppose that does count somewhat for perception as relating to treasure. I've heard the rumor that perception will make what gems you do find that of greater value or something, but I find that hard to believe. I think the treasure system is a simple mechanism that puts something in que for the next 'loot' action and then spits it out; without looking at variables involving the characters doing said looting.

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by hectomaner

Originally posted by Drew
Perception definately does not help you find more treasure on critters.


wow, you are so incredibly wrong its funny


This has been confirmed over and over by GMs. If you have some conflicting information please feel free to prove me wrong.


ok, glacier in ta'illistim. glacial morphs and animated slushes. you will get NO treasure unless you have perception, in which case you will find gold dust, in varying amounts, depending on how much perception you have.

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by Janarth
Hecto, Sing TFU?


Shutting The Fuck Up

[Edited on 9-13-2005 by hectomaner]

[Janarth]

Romulus says, "Part of the utility code that I have written so far and that has received good comments is one of the modifiers that requires perception to help you locate the target you are attempting to focus on (focused option only) when that target is in a darkened room is blurred, in a fogged room or some other effect that should normally require good perception."


http://www.olsonstudios.com/zanteal/f1956tbird/forum/sorcerer-forum.html

This is for Jonty, and why I thought perception mattered in FI. After Drayal's research concerning Ildran's post, its been changed and I stand corrected; I didn't pull it out of my ass. Romulus also posted similiar info on the board. Reading through this stuff..Romulus had such great ideas, I wish they all got implemented.

[Chaddy]

I never realized why but it's true. Since I've retrained with no perception if I have any of my characters hunt the glacier I don't get shit for loot.

[Drew]

Originally posted by hectomaner

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by hectomaner

Originally posted by Drew
Perception definately does not help you find more treasure on critters.


wow, you are so incredibly wrong its funny


This has been confirmed over and over by GMs. If you have some conflicting information please feel free to prove me wrong.


ok, glacier in ta'illistim. glacial morphs and animated slushes. you will get NO treasure unless you have perception, in which case you will find gold dust, in varying amounts, depending on how much perception you have.


That and glacei in pinefar. That's paticular to that creature though and has nothing to do with the treasure system.

[Jonty]

Romulus says, "Part of the utility code that I have written so far and that has received good comments is one of the modifiers that requires perception to help you locate the target you are attempting to focus on (focused option only) when that target is in a darkened room is blurred, in a fogged room or some other effect that should normally require good perception."


http://www.olsonstudios.com/zanteal/f1956tbird/forum/sorcerer-forum.html

This is for Jonty, and why I thought perception mattered in FI.


Thanks, but I already know that, and I also know how to search for red names (and plenty of knowledgeable GS players) to find out things like perception not affecting FI anymore.

[Janarth]

If you know how to search the officials, please let the rest of us know.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Drew
That and glacei in pinefar. That's paticular to that creature though and has nothing to do with the treasure system.


But it has everything to do with finding treasure on critters which is where this idea was first broached by badmojo in his post on the first page of this thread.

Especially with regards to whether or not you should train in perception in order to increase wealth via the treasure system or looting critters.

[Edited on 9-14-2005 by Ganalon]

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Janarth
If you know how to search the officials, please let the rest of us know.

You go through the pages of the appropriate folder and look for red names, related topics, knowledgeable posters, or what ever you're looking for? I didn’t say anything about a search function. Drayal seemed to manage finding the information just fine on the officials.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Ganalon

Originally posted by Drew
That and glacei in pinefar. That's paticular to that creature though and has nothing to do with the treasure system.


But it has everything to do with finding treasure on critters which is where this idea was first broached by badmojo in his post on the first page of this thread.

Especially with regards to whether or not you should train in perception in order to increase wealth via the treasure system or looting critters.

[Edited on 9-14-2005 by Ganalon]


Ok, in 99.9% of all the hunting you're going to be doing perception has nothing to do with it.


I'm sorry I didn't mention the few exceptions to the rule but I was saying that it doesn't help you find more treasure under the normal treasure system as was postulated.

[Janarth]

You know, are there any midlevel 400s users to have no perception and open most of their own boxes?

I recently realized that I can spot and disarm traps and pop boxes from stuff as high as 50 trains very reliably (yet to miss a trap, I don't try and disarm scarabs). I'm wondering if my perception helps this at all or if its all 400s ranks. Anyone do this without any perception training?

It helps ya retain more of the treasure you do find!

[Jonty]

I'm wondering if my perception helps this at all or if its all 400s ranks.

It helps with 416, and casting 402 beforehand should too.


416 · Piercing Gaze [PIERCEGAZE]
Duration: Immediate

Type: Utility

This spell allows the caster to see into, behind or under containers of all types. When doing so, they stand a chance of spotting any traps.

Factors that contribute to the success of finding a trap include training in the Perception skill, Minor Elemental spell ranks, Intuition bonus, Logic bonus, and the spell Disarm Enhancement, which takes Aura bonus into account.

Many containers carry natural resistance to the power of this spell based on the material used in the construction of the container. This spell can also cause some traps to be set off, which will strike the spell caster.

[Janarth]

Figures, they list specifically what skills affect some spells, not others. Thanks for posting that, no play.net at work. I wonder if we can infer that it being listed first makes it the most heavily weighted - probably not.

[Omens]

I 1x for spell #416, 404+408. That's about it.

[badmojo]

Good catch on the 416 use! I had overlooked that spell description entirely.



Originally posted by Jonty
[quote] I'm wondering if my perception helps this at all or if its all 400s ranks.


It helps with 416, and casting 402 beforehand should too.
. . .