Get Off His Back

[CrystalTears]

Ben Stein can say it better than I can.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8693

***UPDATED: Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005, 2:13 p.m.***

A few truths, for those who have ears and eyes and care to know the truth:

1.) The hurricane that hit New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama was an astonishing tragedy. The suffering and loss of life and peace of mind of the residents of those areas is acutely horrifying.

2.) George Bush did not cause the hurricane. Hurricanes have been happening for eons. George Bush did not create them or unleash this one.

3.) George Bush did not make this one worse than others. There have been far worse hurricanes than this before George Bush was born.

4.) There is no overwhelming evidence that global warming exists as a man-made phenomenon. There is no clear-cut evidence that global warming even exists. There is no clear evidence that if it does exist it makes hurricanes more powerful or makes them aim at cities with large numbers of poor people. If global warming is a real phenomenon, which it may well be, it started long before George Bush was inaugurated, and would not have been affected at all by the Kyoto treaty, considering that Kyoto does not cover the world's worst polluters -- China, India, and Brazil. In a word, George Bush had zero to do with causing this hurricane. To speculate otherwise is belief in sorcery.

5.) George Bush had nothing to do with the hurricane contingency plans for New Orleans. Those are drawn up by New Orleans and Louisiana. In any event, the plans were perfectly good: mandatory evacuation. It is in no way at all George Bush's fault that about 20 percent of New Orleans neglected to follow the plan. It is not his fault that many persons in New Orleans were too confused to realize how dangerous the hurricane would be. They were certainly warned. It's not George Bush's fault that there were sick people and old people and people without cars in New Orleans. His job description does not include making sure every adult in America has a car, is in good health, has good sense, and is mobile.

6.) George Bush did not cause gangsters to shoot at rescue helicopters taking people from rooftops, did not make gang bangers rape young girls in the Superdome, did not make looters steal hundreds of weapons, in short make New Orleans into a living hell.

7.) George Bush is the least racist President in mind and soul there has ever been and this is shown in his appointments over and over. To say otherwise is scandalously untrue.

8.) George Bush is rushing every bit of help he can to New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama as soon as he can. He is not a magician. It takes time to organize huge convoys of food and now they are starting to arrive. That they get in at all considering the lawlessness of the city is a miracle of bravery and organization.

9.) There is not the slightest evidence at all that the war in Iraq has diminished the response of the government to the emergency. To say otherwise is pure slander.

10.) If the energy the news media puts into blaming Bush for an Act of God worsened by stupendous incompetence by the New Orleans city authorities and the malevolence of the criminals of the city were directed to helping the morale of the nation, we would all be a lot better off.

11.) New Orleans is a great city with many great people. It will recover and be greater than ever. Sticking pins into an effigy of George Bush that does not resemble him in the slightest will not speed the process by one day.

12.) The entire episode is a dramatic lesson in the breathtaking callousness of government officials at the ground level. Imagine if Hillary Clinton had gotten her way and they were in charge of your health care.

God bless all of those dear people who are suffering so much, and God bless those helping them, starting with George Bush.

****
UPDATE: Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005, 2:13 p.m.:

More Mysteries of Katrina:

Why is it that the snipers who shot at emergency rescuers trying to save people in hospitals and shelters are never mentioned except in passing, and Mr. Bush, who is turning over heaven and earth to rescue the victims of the storm, is endlessly vilified?

What church does Rev. Al Sharpton belong to that believes in passing blame and singling out people by race for opprobrium and hate?

What special abilities does the media have for deciding how much blame goes to the federal government as opposed to the city government of New Orleans for the aftereffects of Katrina?

If able-bodied people refuse to obey a mandatory evacuation order for a city, have they not assumed the risk that ill effects will happen to them?

When the city government simply ignores its own sick and hospitalized and elderly people in its evacuation order, is Mr. Bush to blame for that?

Is there any problem in the world that is not Mr. Bush's fault, or have we reverted to a belief in a sort of witchcraft where we credit a mortal man with the ability to create terrifying storms and every other kind of ill wind?

Where did the idea come from that salvation comes from hatred and criticism and mockery instead of love and co-operation?

[Hulkein]

Ben Stein is the man.

[Warriorbird]

As much as I respect Ben Stein for being a quality writer and entertainer, this is emo conservatism at its finest.

[Hulkein]

Sure thing, WB.

[Warriorbird]

Life is so tough ruling the free world.

[Numbers]

I think what offends me most is that, while the hurricane was hitting NO and people were dying, Bush was in California playing guitar. His press conference about the hurricane was flippant, as if he didn't take it that seriously.

And the fact that he had to cut his vacation short in order to deal with it is laughable, as I honestly don't think he has any right whatsoever to be taking a vacation of any sort when there are American soldiers dying in Iraq on his orders.

I do think, though, that if blame is to be placed anywhere, it's on the local NO government who did a horrible job of preparing, as well as the people who refused to evacuate and stayed behind (elderly and sick not included.)

Honestly, if I was told to evacuate, but I was too poor to afford gas for my car, I'd pack a duffel bag with a spare set of clothes, a whole bunch of water bottles, and some bread and crackers and I'd walk out. Those who stayed behind have nobody to blame but themselves, though it would have been nice if the law enforcement had gone around and forced the stragglers out.

[CrystalTears]

Wow so as long as the war is going on, he's never allowed to take a vacation? I'm sure glad I don't work for you. :P

[ElanthianSiren]

I will take CT's response to me in the Moore thread and raise it:

:lol2: :violin:
me this guy 4 Bush

This article provides no fact checks to back up its claims, no raw media footage. It's essentially an op-ed, so if we are trying to compare this guy to Moore, he falls short.

In terms of good journalism, both fall short, however. It's much easier to point to the extreme cases, rather than look at what reputable reporters have been saying.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Spectator

'The American Spectator is a conservative-leaning U.S. monthly magazine covering news and politics, edited by R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr. and published by the non-profit American Alternative Foundation. From its founding in the late 1960s until the late 1980s, the small-circulation magazine featured the writings of authors such as Thomas Sowell, Tom Wolfe, P.J. O'Rourke, George F. Will, Patrick J. Buchanan, and Malcolm Muggeridge, although today the magazine is best known for its attacks in the 1990s on Bill Clinton and its "Arkansas Project" to discredit the president, funded by billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife and the Bradley Foundation."

Yes, they're known for being very unbiased, I see. :rolleyes:

-M

not that Moore isn't; I just find it amusing that you roll your eyes at one thread, then use the same kind of propaganda in another.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
This article provides no fact checks to back up its claims, no raw media footage. It's essentially an op-ed, so if we are trying to compare this guy to Moore, he falls short.

So Moore is allowed to make his own statements with no facts but no one else is. Nice.

And I posted this to have the other side of the same coin. If Moore can go on his liberal tirade about Bush being the bad guy, Ben can state his conservative side too.

[Numbers]

When he's the one that ordered the troops there? No, he doesn't deserve a vacation. How many vacations has this president taken compared to other presidents?

I just think it's tasteless. When I heard on the news, "And today in Iraq, some American soldiers were killed in a roadside bomb," and then their next story, "And President Bush, currently on vacation at his Texas ranch..."

He's our president. Our country is currently at war. He shouldn't be flying out to Texas to play golf and play guitar.

[Warriorbird]

I just find it amusing that you roll your eyes at one thread, then use the same kind of propaganda in another.

[xtc]

Hurricane relief has been handled poor. If it is Bush's fault has yet to be determined. However I find it hard to believe that more troops wouldn't have been available if we weren't fighting a war in Iraq.

I was also surprised that Stein doesn't believe there is evidence to support global warming.

[Warriorbird]

I was also surprised that Stein doesn't believe there is evidence to support global warming.

He's friends with James Watt.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

me this guy 4 Bush

The difference between you and Benstein goes a bit further than emoticons.

You are no one, Ben Stein has been in politics for like 30 years. Wasn't he a speech writer for Reagan?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

I just find it amusing that you roll your eyes at one thread, then use the same kind of propaganda in another.

I wanted to present the other side. I rolled my eyes in the other one because it was Moore, the lying piece of shit that he is, making his little stance on how bad a president Bush is.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

me this guy 4 Bush

The difference between you and Benstein goes a bit further than emoticons.

You are no one, Ben Stein has been in politics for like 30 years. Wasn't he a speech writer for Reagan?

Nixon actually.

[Warriorbird]

"You are no one, Ben Stein has been in politics for like 30 years. Wasn't he a speech writer for Reagan? "

Much like the Celtar playing GS comments it doesn't render his op-ed pieces fact or make him somehow anything other than extraordinarily biased.

[Warriorbird]

"I wanted to present the other side."

Yet you criticize the fact that the other side is presented at all. What's it gonna be?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"You are no one, Ben Stein has been in politics for like 30 years. Wasn't he a speech writer for Reagan? "

Much like the Celtar playing GS comments it doesn't render his op-ed pieces fact or make him somehow anything other than extraordinarily biased.

Much like Moore's, which was my point for posting it.

[Warriorbird]

So...you posted something biased to show that nobody should say biased things? I'm feeling a Bob moment coming on.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

me this guy 4 Bush

The difference between you and Benstein goes a bit further than emoticons.

You are no one, Ben Stein has been in politics for like 30 years. Wasn't he a speech writer for Reagan?

I wasn't comparing myself to him. I was echoing a sentiment that CT made in another thread :lol2:

Then saying "this guy for Bush" :violin:, as WB pointed out this is emo conservativism.

And no CT. I would in no way infringe upon someone's freedom to speak their mind. I just noted why I found it ironic.

-M

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
So...you posted something biased to show that nobody should say biased things? I'm feeling a Bob moment coming on.

You're such an asshole. I showed something biased to counter something that was just as biased. Do you get it now or do I need to spell it out for you? So I criticized Moore's bullshit. BFD. Criticize Ben's stuff, I don't care. I'm not allowed to post something now? Fucking Christ.


And no CT. I would in no way infringe upon someone's freedom to speak their mind. I just noted why I found it ironic.

Neither do I. People can say whatever the hell they want, and I have all the right in the world to call them lying jerks. Free country and all.

[Edited on 9/7/2005 by CrystalTears]

[DeV]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
'The American Spectator is a conservative-leaning U.S. monthly magazine covering news and politics, edited by R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr. and published by the non-profit American Alternative Foundation. From its founding in the late 1960s until the late 1980s, the small-circulation magazine featured the writings of authors such as Thomas Sowell, Tom Wolfe, P.J. O'Rourke, George F. Will, Patrick J. Buchanan, and Malcolm Muggeridge, although today the magazine is best known for its attacks in the 1990s on Bill Clinton and its "Arkansas Project" to discredit the president, funded by billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife and the Bradley Foundation."
Heh, I peeped that too.

Here is a liberal response just to play Devil's advocate here. I ran across this on Google while looking for more information about Ben Stein and the American Spectator.

These are not my words, but it is a response to Ben Stein.

"Daily Kos (pronounced to rhyme with "prose") is an American political weblog aimed at Democrats and liberals/progressives. Run by Markos Moulitsas Zúniga, a young United States Army veteran, it has daily traffic of 450,000 or more, and often reaches over 2.5 million unique visits in one week. It is arguably the most influential liberal weblog in the United States."

Please note: I actually agree with alot of what Ben Stein has said. Harmnone has put it best as well. This responsibility does not fall into the hands of one individual. I fault the Mayor and Governor before anyone else.


Mr. Stein

Stop making up excuses for George W. Bush, people have done that his entire life. This is exactly why he has failed at just about everything he has done yet he is so detached from reality he doesn't even realize how much of a failure he is. Your whining is not going to change that and it's pretty fucking pathetic to be making up excuses for a 59 year old man. This is not a pep rally, this is real, this is life and death and the time for the lies and talking points is over. Nobody in their right mind has said that the Bush administration is responsible for the hurricane, but he is responsible for the flooding (through budget cuts to infrastructure) and the late response to the event. There is documented proof that the governor and local officials went to the administration as early as the 26th of August seeking help before the disaster occurred. So you trying to help him worm his way out of this is not going to cut it. And about those criminals, no I'm not speaking of the Nazi's that allowed thousands of US Citizens to die from starvation in New Orleans. No I'm talking about the handful of crackheads and thugs that were taking advantage of the chaos, kind of like the contractors in Iraq. Dont get me wrong the few criminals in New Orleans are malicious. Almost as malicious as the kind of people, (your kind of people), that would punish an entire city for 5 days precisely because they aren't your kind.

I have watched the events in New Orleans and quite honestly I cannot sleep at night. I have never felt this sick about a political issue in this country in my lifetime. Let me be clear, the idea that these people are somehow to blame for their fate is absolutely absurd. As a matter of fact I can completely understand how all of these people were still in New Orleans when the levees broke. I am a police officer in a large urban city. I work with citizens who have lived their entire lives with no license and no car. I meet these people every day and the only mode of transportation that they have is either to walk, catch a taxi, or take the public bus or rail system. They have lived this same way, on the same street, in the same neighborhood for generations. I would bet that this is identical to every large city in America. You could pick out any large urban population of any ethnic composition and if you were to go there and tell everyone that they had 24 hours to evacuate, it is not only possible, it is probable that the vast majority of those people would not be able to do so without heavy involvement from the government. As a first responder working in an inner city who has actually had to evacuate people for various reasons, I can personally attest to the difficulty and necessity for total logistic commitment by the local government. That's just to evacuate a few apartment complexes, much less an entire city. To try to imply that there is an "intellectual" component as to why the citizens of New Orleans did not leave and why they are responsible for their own suffering completely misses the reality of the issue. If you were to take any group of people of any race and deprived them of food and water, had them walk through waste deep water filled with feces and urine, and then made them have to watch their sick loved ones die slowly before their eyes the situation will very quickly descend into anarchy.

For the past week as people are dying by the thousands I have listened to commentators like Michael Barone and Charles Krauthammer casually discuss how the tax payers should not subsidize the poor judgment of the citizens of New Orleans because they were "told to leave." My emotions have run the gamut from being stunned to seething with anger. But Friday when I heard the White house press secretary, the director of Homeland Security, and the director of FEMA all using this same "it's their own fault" logic the real dread set in and I finally understood. This is nothing less than ethnic cleansing. The Administration has so little regard for the people of New Orleans they dont even bother to hide it, THEY ALL USED THE SAME GODDAMN TALKING POINTS!! The lack of response, the diversion of responsibility, the indifference all point in the same direction and that direction is going to end up looking like Rwanda. I can't help but think that somewhere in the halls of power the brokers are quietly calculating the bottom line. It's social Darwinism on steroids. I am starting to believe that they looked at all those black faces and maybe deep down inside they are not only thinking that the people of New Orleans deserved this fate, maybe they are thinking that this thinning of the herd is best for the country in the long term. This isn't new it's just an extension of the same logic used in the past. Remember the common quip "if they didn't have the sense to vote the right way then they don't deserve the right to vote"? Now it seems that this logic has morphed into something far more sinister. Instead of those citizens not deserving the right to vote it has become those people don't deserve to be a part of our society, they don't deserve to live.

The worst part of your article "God bless all of those dear people who are suffering so much, and God bless those helping them, starting with George Bush." is one of the most phony, disgusting pieces of horse shit dribble that I have ever read. I'm not kidding, it literally made me nauseous. Do you really think that you can pull that off? When did they go from being stupid to dear people? Trust me, I like it better when you just remain your usual smug self. To do otherwise is just insulting.

[Hulkein]

That guys stuff must not be circulating in anything mainstream considering he's dropping f-bombs in his 'artice.'

[Warriorbird]

He's pretty widely read.

[Numbers]

By the way:

George W. Bush: 345 days
Ronald Reagen: 335 days
Dwight Eisenhower: 222 days
Harry Truman: 175 days
George Bush Sr.: 153 days

Bush has pretty much taken an entire year off during his 8 year term.

What's the vacation time for an average American worker per year? Two weeks?

[ElanthianSiren]

To be fair, the typical American worker doesn't have the responsibilities that a president of an entire nation has.

I would like to know, however, are those figures after a full two terms? In other words: did Bush take almost as many vacation days in one term as other presidents have taken in two?

-M

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
He's pretty widely read.

He's a blogger.

Nuff said.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
To be fair, the typical American worker doesn't have the responsibilities that a president of an entire nation has.

Agreed. Plus, he does do work while on 'vacation.'


[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Hulkein]

[Warriorbird]

He's a blogger.

Nuff said.

Y'all drop blog inspired stuff all the time. I bet the Spectator gets read more online than off these days.

[Numbers]

Yeah, you're right, a typical worker doesn't have nearly the amount of responsibility that the president has.

So, doesn't that mean that Bush should be taking less time off than the average worker? After all, he's the leader of the most powerful nation in the world. He's not a Susie Q. Secretary whose slack can be picked up during the two weeks she's gone.

And I'm not sure which term held more vacation days. But all those presidents I listed served 8 year terms (except Truman, who was 7.)

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Warriorbird
He's pretty widely read.

He's a blogger.

Nuff said. And that is still A-okay.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by 3704558
Yeah, you're right, a typical worker doesn't have nearly the amount of responsibility that the president has.

So, doesn't that mean that Bush should be taking less time off than the average worker? After all, he's the leader of the most powerful nation in the world. He's not a Susie Q. Secretary whose slack can be picked up during the two weeks she's gone.

And I'm not sure which term held more vacation days. But all those presidents I listed served 8 year terms (except Truman, who was 7.)

Delegation.

[Numbers]

Yep, he's got other people who do a lot of work. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they do most of the work, as I'm still not firmly convinced that Bush can even tie his own shoes on his own.

In any case, if you were a soldier in Iraq, and you just saw three of your buddies get blown to bits in the car next to you, would you feel happy knowing that G. W. was having a relaxing visit to his Texas ranch?

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Delegation.

"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job,"

[Kefka]

Here is what the Governor wrote in her 8/27 letter to President George W. Bush requesting federal help:

"In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. "

In the same letter Governor Blanco wrote: ''


The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:
. Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.
. Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby.
. Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.
. Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.
. Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.

Hurricane Katrina hit on Monday, August 29th. Governor Blanco wrote to President Bush on Saturday, August 27th, when it became obvious that Katrina was going to require resources in excess of the state's ability to provide them.

"Dear Mr. President,
"Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. ?? 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR ? 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

"Pursuant to 44 CFR ? 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

"Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A."

Katrina occurred on Monday, August 29th. The federal troops showed up on Friday, September 2nd. Funny thing is 'Anyone but Bush' use to be an anti-Bush slogan.

[DeV]

:heart: Barbara Bush




"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them."

[Warriorbird]

She's so adorable.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by 3704558
Yep, he's got other people who do a lot of work. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they do most of the work, as I'm still not firmly convinced that Bush can even tie his own shoes on his own.

In any case, if you were a soldier in Iraq, and you just saw three of your buddies get blown to bits in the car next to you, would you feel happy knowing that G. W. was having a relaxing visit to his Texas ranch?

If he was in the oval office sitting on his thumb and spinning while those men died in Iraq would that make a difference? They still died serving their Country.

Jesus talk about taking shit over the edge and beyond.

[Numbers]

Bush is also a figurehead. Even if he was in the oval office throwing his poo at the walls, at least everybody would still see him in the white house.

Think of it like a business.

Say your company was on the brink of bankruptcy, or otherwise doing very poorly and losing money at an astonishing rate. Do you think that would be a good time for the CEO to go on vacation to play golf?

[Landrion]

Originally posted by 3704558
I think what offends me most is that, while the hurricane was hitting NO and people were dying, Bush was in California playing guitar. His press conference about the hurricane was flippant, as if he didn't take it that seriously.

And the fact that he had to cut his vacation short in order to deal with it is laughable, as I honestly don't think he has any right whatsoever to be taking a vacation of any sort when there are American soldiers dying in Iraq on his orders.

What organization should be constructed that one man is absolutely necessary at all times? Is Bush the king? Did we stop having thousands of government workers at some point I am not aware of? There is no person from the VP down that can make decisions or handle an emergency when a crisis arrives without GWB's approval? If our government is constructed that way it is monumentally stupid.

Human beings need vacation. Especially knowledge workers. With the stress that that man deals with it would be insane to not send him on vacation. Do you really think that working the man into the ground would help the Iraq conflict in any way? What I suspect is that you for some reason wish to punish the man for what you consider a bad decision to invade Iraq. Simply ridiculous.

No one person should be tightly coupled to the efficient operation of an organization. No one, not a president, not a general should be indispensible.

[Warriorbird]

Does that mean they have no responsibility then?

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Landrion

Originally posted by 3704558
I think what offends me most is that, while the hurricane was hitting NO and people were dying, Bush was in California playing guitar. His press conference about the hurricane was flippant, as if he didn't take it that seriously.

And the fact that he had to cut his vacation short in order to deal with it is laughable, as I honestly don't think he has any right whatsoever to be taking a vacation of any sort when there are American soldiers dying in Iraq on his orders.

What organization should be constructed that one man is absolutely necessary at all times? Is Bush the king? Did we stop having thousands of government workers at some point I am not aware of? There is no person from the VP down that can make decisions or handle an emergency when a crisis arrives without GWB's approval? If our government is constructed that way it is monumentally stupid.

Human beings need vacation. Especially knowledge workers. With the stress that that man deals with it would be insane to not send him on vacation. Do you really think that working the man into the ground would help the Iraq conflict in any way? What I suspect is that you for some reason wish to punish the man for what you consider a bad decision to invade Iraq. Simply ridiculous.

No one person should be tightly coupled to the efficient operation of an organization. No one, not a president, not a general should be indispensible.

I believe she speaks to the sheer NUMBER of vacations, which is staggering IMO if they are not point for point proportioned (ie by this point in his second term, Isenhower took this many days off). That is why I asked.

-M

[CrystalTears]

Say your company was on the brink of bankruptcy, or otherwise doing very poorly and losing money at an astonishing rate. Do you think that would be a good time for the CEO to go on vacation to play golf?

Is the US on the verge of bankruptcy? Is the war heading to US soil? Is the world coming to an end?

Last week at my company our most important state had server issues on the most important week of the processing month. We normally make 55-60k from them on the last day of the month, we got 27k instead. It was really bad.

Guess what? Our CEO was on vacation. OH NOEZ! We're dooooomed! No. The engineers, IT and customer support took care of the situation before he returned. If we couldn't take care of a problem without the CEO, then we have serious problems as a company.

Considering he also mentioned that while we're at war the president shouldn't be on vacation at all, I doubt it's just about the numbers.

[Edited on 9/7/2005 by CrystalTears]

[StrayRogue]

I started reading that list as if it was serious. I got half way down then realized it was a joke. And not a funny one.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by 3704558
Bush is also a figurehead. Even if he was in the oval office throwing his poo at the walls, at least everybody would still see him in the white house.

Think of it like a business.

Say your company was on the brink of bankruptcy, or otherwise doing very poorly and losing money at an astonishing rate. Do you think that would be a good time for the CEO to go on vacation to play golf?

A quote from men in black-

There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Korilian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable planet. The only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they "do not know about it!"

The point being, there is always some crisis or genocide or other emergency going on. If you really think a sitting president should be unable to take vacation and sit as a figurehead to make you feel good I dont know what to tell you.

[Back]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Does that mean they have no responsibility then?

Thats what it sounds like to me. Bush et al. will never be held accountable for anything until all the lap-dog, yessmen, coatail riders stop obfuscating the truth to remain in power.

People need to toss out the this side that side thinking and take a hard look at facts.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Landrion

Originally posted by 3704558
I think what offends me most is that, while the hurricane was hitting NO and people were dying, Bush was in California playing guitar. His press conference about the hurricane was flippant, as if he didn't take it that seriously.

And the fact that he had to cut his vacation short in order to deal with it is laughable, as I honestly don't think he has any right whatsoever to be taking a vacation of any sort when there are American soldiers dying in Iraq on his orders.

What organization should be constructed that one man is absolutely necessary at all times? Is Bush the king? Did we stop having thousands of government workers at some point I am not aware of? There is no person from the VP down that can make decisions or handle an emergency when a crisis arrives without GWB's approval? If our government is constructed that way it is monumentally stupid.

Human beings need vacation. Especially knowledge workers. With the stress that that man deals with it would be insane to not send him on vacation. Do you really think that working the man into the ground would help the Iraq conflict in any way? What I suspect is that you for some reason wish to punish the man for what you consider a bad decision to invade Iraq. Simply ridiculous.

No one person should be tightly coupled to the efficient operation of an organization. No one, not a president, not a general should be indispensible.

I believe she speaks to the sheer NUMBER of vacations, which is staggering IMO if they are not point for point proportioned (ie by this point in his second term, Isenhower took this many days off). That is why I asked.

-M

Id like to see a more complete listing of those vacations across presidents before I say anything on a number. I note there are only 5 presidents listed. That looks suspiciously like a trick Ive seen a lot of times before with statistics. Pick a small subset of numbers that support your argument only.

In any event, over 8 years of career I would see 160 days of vacation and and 40 personal days. So Im clocking in higher than GW senior too. Frankly, since a President is presumably a lot better qualified than I am I hope they do better than 4 weeks of vacation a year.

[Back]

Originally posted by 3704558
By the way:

George W. Bush: 345 days
Ronald Reagen: 335 days
Dwight Eisenhower: 222 days
Harry Truman: 175 days
George Bush Sr.: 153 days

Bush has pretty much taken an entire year off during his 8 year term.

What's the vacation time for an average American worker per year? Two weeks?

I’d also like to point out: look at the numbers for presidents in legitimate wars.

[Landrion]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Does that mean they have no responsibility then?

There is a difference between having no responsibility and being able to trust others with your responsibilities when you are unavaliable. I am surprised that I even need to write that. Is this something that is only common where I work? I would tell anyone whose job was essential and had no backup that they were courting disaster.

Edited to correct a typo.

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Landrion]

[Warriorbird]

So... it doesn't just provide a convenient rationalization for high level failure? That's one of the problems with a hierarchy with no oversight... leaders find it easy to blame a subordinate. Don't tell me this isn't true in business. It's one of the reasons boards of directors exist.



[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Warriorbird]

[CrystalTears]

George W. Bush: 345 days

You do realize that if we calculated this at 5 years time, this averages to less than 6 days off a month, or 8 weeks off a year. My mother, just a regular international loan officer at a bank gets about 6 weeks a year. I don't think this is that much time off, and it's not really time off since he spends time working during those vacations anyway.

[GSLeloo]

Originally posted by 3704558

And the fact that he had to cut his vacation short in order to deal with it is laughable, as I honestly don't think he has any right whatsoever to be taking a vacation of any sort when there are American soldiers dying in Iraq on his orders.


Just to add to this, I agree about the vacation. I remember I was watching Bill Maher and he said...



But... [laughter] but let me just say, well, let me ask you first. Now people have said, they've noted that he's shattering Ronald Reagan's record of being on vacation. He's already been on vacation 319 days out of his five years, and they have a problem with that. Do you have a problem with that— (http://www.safesearching.com/billmaher/print/t_hbo_realtime_081905.html)

No job would let you be on vacation for that many days a year so why is the president, the top person in our country, allowed to be away for that much at a time when our country really needs guidance?

And while obviously the hurricane wasn't caused by anyone, our relief efforts were too little too late. We handled the entire situation badly and I think Bush should take the blame for a lot of it because it's his job to take care of this country and he really isn't.

[Back]

I should reply on topic. Seriously, if anyone blames Bush for the actual hurricane and the direction it took they are insane. Thats evident. But Ben Stein insults my intelligence to suggest that anyone with any criticism keeps company with those who would be so outlandinsh.

Simple facts are substituted with absurdities. Anyone with half a brain can figure that out.

But Ben Stein only goes so far with this rationale... that if something goes wrong it means its the presidents fault. Why not take it further and say it is the American people who voted him into office, twice, that are at fault?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by 3704558
Yep, he's got other people who do a lot of work. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they do most of the work, as I'm still not firmly convinced that Bush can even tie his own shoes on his own.

In any case, if you were a soldier in Iraq, and you just saw three of your buddies get blown to bits in the car next to you, would you feel happy knowing that G. W. was having a relaxing visit to his Texas ranch?

Do you think that any other president had less things delegated? It's the way it has always been.

And wtf with that moronic soldier comment. You know there is an edit button that you can use to remove stupid shit after you realize you posted it.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Xyelin

Delegation.

"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job,"

[Detri]

Excellent article.

[Back]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
George W. Bush: 345 days

You do realize that if we calculated this at 5 years time, this averages to less than 6 days off a month, or 8 weeks off a year. My mother, just a regular international loan officer at a bank gets about 6 weeks a year. I don't think this is that much time off, and it's not really time off since he spends time working during those vacations anyway.

So by the end of his second term, he’ll have had 448 days off, during 2 major tragedies and one 4+ year war.

[CrystalTears]

Goldmember: Well, then there ish no pleashing you.

[Edited on 9/7/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Back]

Well, that dosen't concern you at all? More vacation than any other president with two terms and barely into his second term during major combat operations?

[Warriorbird]

He's clearly doing important matters of government on his vacations... doing things like attending the Bohemian Grove.

[Ravenstorm]

The Onion has some amusing 'articles' about it all.

God Outdoes Terrorists Yet Again (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40305)

Raven

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
The Onion has some amusing 'articles' about it all.

God Outdoes Terrorists Yet Again (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40305)

Raven

There is something incredibly touching and beautiful about the Louisianna guard offering to send their water from open combat.

-M

[CrystalTears]

Truthfully, considering how little the other presidents took time off for, I think it's a little wacko how much time he's taken off during his term in office. Sure I rationalized that in theory it's not that much time, but when you consider how much time other presidents have taken, it makes you wonder if other presidents were on actual vacations or just excursions to another area to work. It does give reason to ponder it.

[Warriorbird]

Bush is apparently leading an investigation of what went wrong with the government's response to Katrina.

LINK (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050906/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_washington_44)

I like the picture. It looks like he's giving that evacuee a medical examination.

"Is it your fault?"

The snarky side of me wonders if he should ask OJ Simpson for investigative help. In reality though, I mainly find this silly. The 14 billion that was sneezed at in past years could've saved us 200 billion. I wonder how much the investigation will cost? This is the government that got here on the idea of making Americans safe.

And his Mom's saying that the citizens of New Orleans were lucky to have the hurricane because they're poor.

Ah, America.

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by 3704558
When he's the one that ordered the troops there? No, he doesn't deserve a vacation. How many vacations has this president taken compared to other presidents?

I just think it's tasteless. When I heard on the news, "And today in Iraq, some American soldiers were killed in a roadside bomb," and then their next story, "And President Bush, currently on vacation at his Texas ranch..."

He's our president. Our country is currently at war. He shouldn't be flying out to Texas to play golf and play guitar.

If you think his vacations are relaxing in the least.. you know nothing about American politics. Presidents do more work on vacation then most Americans do on their job.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc
Hurricane relief has been handled poor. If it is Bush's fault has yet to be determined. However I find it hard to believe that more troops wouldn't have been available if we weren't fighting a war in Iraq.

I was also surprised that Stein doesn't believe there is evidence to support global warming.

Please explain the cyclical environmental changes this planet has had.. before man was even here.

[Warriorbird]

"If you think his vacations are relaxing in the least.. you know nothing about American politics."

Go do a little research on the Bohemian Grove. He attended this year. Seems like a hell of a party, but not exactly the venue for vital American interests.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by 3704558
When he's the one that ordered the troops there? No, he doesn't deserve a vacation. How many vacations has this president taken compared to other presidents?

I just think it's tasteless. When I heard on the news, "And today in Iraq, some American soldiers were killed in a roadside bomb," and then their next story, "And President Bush, currently on vacation at his Texas ranch..."

He's our president. Our country is currently at war. He shouldn't be flying out to Texas to play golf and play guitar.

If you think his vacations are relaxing in the least.. you know nothing about American politics. Presidents do more work on vacation then most Americans do on their job.

Because, you know, black is actually white, and white is actually black, and the president with the most vaction is really the hardest working.

[Tromp]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by xtc
Hurricane relief has been handled poor. If it is Bush's fault has yet to be determined. However I find it hard to believe that more troops wouldn't have been available if we weren't fighting a war in Iraq.

I was also surprised that Stein doesn't believe there is evidence to support global warming.

Please explain the cyclical environmental changes this planet has had.. before man was even here.

Please return the van down by the river PB. Please dont tell me the human race has not contributed to global warming.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"If you think his vacations are relaxing in the least.. you know nothing about American politics."

Go do a little research on the Bohemian Grove. He attended this year. Seems like a hell of a party, but not exactly the venue for vital American interests.

If he's on "vacation", does it always have to be in a venue for vital American interests? I'm sure riding a horse or falling off one of those motor scooters isn't exactly vital American interests either.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by 3704558
When he's the one that ordered the troops there? No, he doesn't deserve a vacation. How many vacations has this president taken compared to other presidents?

I just think it's tasteless. When I heard on the news, "And today in Iraq, some American soldiers were killed in a roadside bomb," and then their next story, "And President Bush, currently on vacation at his Texas ranch..."

He's our president. Our country is currently at war. He shouldn't be flying out to Texas to play golf and play guitar.

If you think his vacations are relaxing in the least.. you know nothing about American politics. Presidents do more work on vacation then most Americans do on their job.

Because, you know, black is actually white, and white is actually black, and the president with the most vaction is really the hardest working.

Please show me where I ever said he was the hardest working President. Until you can.. perhaps you should find a point.

Thanks.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tromp

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by xtc
Hurricane relief has been handled poor. If it is Bush's fault has yet to be determined. However I find it hard to believe that more troops wouldn't have been available if we weren't fighting a war in Iraq.

I was also surprised that Stein doesn't believe there is evidence to support global warming.

Please explain the cyclical environmental changes this planet has had.. before man was even here.

Please return the van down by the river PB. Please dont tell me the human race has not contributed to global warming.

We're talking evidence. I personally believe that we have contributed to climate change.. but there is no evidence to support that theory. Climatic changes have occured on this planet for eons.. well before man was here. Look up ice age.

[Warriorbird]

If you think his vacations are relaxing in the least.. you know nothing about American politics.

-Parkbandit


If he's on "vacation", does it always have to be in a venue for vital American interests? I'm sure riding a horse or falling off one of those motor scooters isn't exactly vital American interests either.

-Parkbandit

I'm not really seeing these as reconciling.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Zos
This is nothing less than ethnic cleansing.I really honestly thought that things couldn't get any more absurd in this post.
that direction is going to end up looking like Rwanda.Finiswolf's comment didn't even last a day.
Originally posted by Kefka
Katrina occurred on Monday, August 29th. The federal troops showed up on Friday, September 2nd.10,000 National Guardspeople (is that the right term?) were deployed before the storm even hit.

[Warriorbird]

10,000 National Guardspeople (is that the right term?) were deployed before the storm even hit.

Yet had curiously little impact. Did you look into what their orders were?

Bush theoretically authorized funds early... but they weren't actually available till later as well.

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Latrinsorm]

I did not.

[Tromp]

[/quote]

Please explain the cyclical environmental changes this planet has had.. before man was even here. [/quote]

Please return the van down by the river PB. Please dont tell me the human race has not contributed to global warming. [/quote]

We're talking evidence. I personally believe that we have contributed to climate change.. but there is no evidence to support that theory. Climatic changes have occured on this planet for eons.. well before man was here. Look up ice age. [/quote]

Fact - we are producing more carbon dioxide then every before
Fact - we are developing more land then ever before thus reducing the amount of plant life
Fact - Greenhouse effect is a result causing water/air temperature to rise
Fact - Avg temp has risen faster in the last hundred then ever before.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by 3704558
By the way:

George W. Bush: 345 days
Ronald Reagen: 335 days
Dwight Eisenhower: 222 days
Harry Truman: 175 days
George Bush Sr.: 153 days

Bush has pretty much taken an entire year off during his 8 year term.

What's the vacation time for an average American worker per year? Two weeks?

Don't forget that Michael Moore is on at LEAST a 3 week vacation at the fat farm.

[DeV]

The average American is fat. That isn't news.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Tromp


Please explain the cyclical environmental changes this planet has had.. before man was even here. [/quote]

Please return the van down by the river PB. Please dont tell me the human race has not contributed to global warming. [/quote]

We're talking evidence. I personally believe that we have contributed to climate change.. but there is no evidence to support that theory. Climatic changes have occured on this planet for eons.. well before man was here. Look up ice age. [/quote]

Fact - we are producing more carbon dioxide then every before
Fact - we are developing more land then ever before thus reducing the amount of plant life
Fact - Greenhouse effect is a result causing water/air temperature to rise
Fact - Avg temp has risen faster in the last hundred then ever before. [/quote]

Florida for example has been proven to be submersed completely by water on a 10,000 year cycle.

[Warriorbird]

You forgot ozone depletion as well, Tromp....which, despite what folks say is largely due to jet airplanes, which we won't stop using.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Tromp


Please explain the cyclical environmental changes this planet has had.. before man was even here.

Please return the van down by the river PB. Please dont tell me the human race has not contributed to global warming. [/quote]

We're talking evidence. I personally believe that we have contributed to climate change.. but there is no evidence to support that theory. Climatic changes have occured on this planet for eons.. well before man was here. Look up ice age. [/quote]

Fact - we are producing more carbon dioxide then every before
Fact - we are developing more land then ever before thus reducing the amount of plant life
Fact - Greenhouse effect is a result causing water/air temperature to rise
Fact - Avg temp has risen faster in the last hundred then ever before. [/quote]

Florida for example has been proven to be submersed completely by water on a 10,000 year cycle. [/quote]

The history of the earth has shown that it has undergone some drastic weather changes. However what has happened in the last 50 years with the deterioration of the ozone layer. The massive amount of pollution that we have spewed into the atmosphere and the voracious rate we are consuming the earth’s natural resources must have some negative effect on the earth and thus on our future if we continue. Take gasoline as an example not only has our use of it polluted the atmosphere we are also on the back side of the peak. If the age of the earth was measured on a 24 hour clock humans have only been here for the 30 seconds.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
You forgot ozone depletion as well, Tromp....which, despite what folks say is largely due to jet airplanes, which we won't stop using.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The ozone layer has stopped shrinking but it will take decades to start recovering, U.S. scientists reported on Tuesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/08/31/ozone.layer.reut/

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Tromp


Please explain the cyclical environmental changes this planet has had.. before man was even here.

Please return the van down by the river PB. Please dont tell me the human race has not contributed to global warming.

We're talking evidence. I personally believe that we have contributed to climate change.. but there is no evidence to support that theory. Climatic changes have occured on this planet for eons.. well before man was here. Look up ice age. [/quote]

Fact - we are producing more carbon dioxide then every before
Fact - we are developing more land then ever before thus reducing the amount of plant life
Fact - Greenhouse effect is a result causing water/air temperature to rise
Fact - Avg temp has risen faster in the last hundred then ever before. [/quote]

Florida for example has been proven to be submersed completely by water on a 10,000 year cycle. [/quote]

The history of the earth has shown that it has undergone some drastic weather changes. However what has happened in the last 50 years with the deterioration of the ozone layer. The massive amount of pollution that we have spewed into the atmosphere and the voracious rate we are consuming the earth’s natural resources must have some negative effect on the earth and thus on our future if we continue. Take gasoline as an example not only has our use of it polluted the atmosphere we are also on the back side of the peak. If the age of the earth was measured on a 24 hour clock humans have only been here for the 30 seconds. [/quote]

I think the time humans have been here is represented by a significantly fewer number of seconds considering 4.5 billions years.

[Warriorbird]

Interesting. But note they did not say it was recovering yet...the UV likely also has a weather effect.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Interesting. But note they did not say it was recovering yet...the UV likely also has a weather effect.

Oh I didn't mean to imply it was recovering yet but was a good read anyways. The way I look at it is if the wound ain't bleeding it's recovering.

[xtc]

Xyelin according to the show I saw on the Discovery channel if the Earth is 24 hours old, we have been here for the last 30 seconds.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Xyelin
The way I look at it is if the wound ain't bleeding it's recovering.

Or just infested and eaten away and waiting for its opportunity to fall off... oh sorry. :whistle:

[DeV]

Ick.

[Gan]

Ben Stein rocks.

:!:

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Xyelin
The way I look at it is if the wound ain't bleeding it's recovering.

Or just infested and eaten away and waiting for its opportunity to fall off... oh sorry. :whistle:

Ewww that paints a nasty image.

[Back]

Ok, here we go again. All scientific evidence is supposed to be thrown out the window with the simple (simple as in moronic) comment that the climate has been changing EVEN WITOUT HUMANS DUH.

Yeah, because big fucking meteors hit and threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere. Because a hundred fucking volcanos threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere.

No life form in the history of Earth has had this kind of impact on the planet. The evidence is right in front of peoples godamn faces and they are still to godamn stupid to understand it.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Backlash
Ok, here we go again. All scientific evidence is supposed to be thrown out the window with the simple (simple as in moronic) comment that the climate has been changing EVEN WITOUT HUMANS DUH.

Yeah, because big fucking meteors hit and threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere. Because a hundred fucking volcanos threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere.

No life form in the history of Earth has had this kind of impact on the planet. The evidence is right in front of peoples godamn faces and they are still to godamn stupid to understand it.

At least you are not denying the possibility.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by Backlash
Ok, here we go again. All scientific evidence is supposed to be thrown out the window with the simple (simple as in moronic) comment that the climate has been changing EVEN WITOUT HUMANS DUH.

Yeah, because big fucking meteors hit and threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere. Because a hundred fucking volcanos threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere.

No life form in the history of Earth has had this kind of impact on the planet. The evidence is right in front of peoples godamn faces and they are still to godamn stupid to understand it.

At least you are not denying the possibility.

It is possible that one day pigs might fly one day, doesn't mean it is probable.

[Sean of the Thread]

You sir, have obviously never shot a pig in the ass with a bb gun.

[Gan]

Because we all know that scientists know everything there is to know about everything.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I wanted to present the other side. I rolled my eyes in the other one because it was Moore, the lying piece of shit that he is, making his little stance on how bad a president Bush is.

Do you think Bush did a good job with this hurricane and disaster relief? I'm not talking about funding cuts or anything else of that ilk.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Kefka
Funny thing is 'Anyone but Bush' use to be an anti-Bush slogan.

http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif

[Gan]

Originally posted by TheRoseLadyDo you think Bush did a good job with this hurricane and disaster relief? I'm not talking about funding cuts or anything else of that ilk.

To date, yes, he's followed procedure as far as I can tell with the reports coming out regarding communication of the warnings, his communication with the Gov. of LA, MS, GA and FL, and his designation of federal funds being freed up for relief efforts and for the oil reserve being freed up in an effort to stave off Katrina's impact on the economy.

I'd say he's been par. Not above par like he was during 9/11 but par. Which I would expect for everything else he has on his plate (without actually knowing his full daily/weekly/monthly agenda).

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Ganalon]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by 3704558
By the way:

George W. Bush: 345 days
Ronald Reagen: 335 days
Dwight Eisenhower: 222 days
Harry Truman: 175 days
George Bush Sr.: 153 days

Bush has pretty much taken an entire year off during his 8 year term.

What's the vacation time for an average American worker per year? Two weeks?

Don't forget that Michael Moore is on at LEAST a 3 week vacation at the fat farm.

Xyelin, do you have an issue with obese people? How is this relevent in this topic?

Stop being so transparent.

[Artha]

I think people are just looking for someone to blame. Because of the political structure with Bush right up there at the top, it's always his fault. Even if he only had the littlest influence on what happened, he's readily available and it requires little thought to attack him.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ganalon

Originally posted by TheRoseLadyDo you think Bush did a good job with this hurricane and disaster relief? I'm not talking about funding cuts or anything else of that ilk.

To date, yes, he's followed procedure as far as I can tell with the reports coming out regarding communication of the warnings, his communication with the Gov. of LA, MS, GA and FL, and his designation of federal funds being freed up for relief efforts and for the oil reserve being freed up in an effort to stave off Katrina's impact on the economy.

I'd say he's been par. Not above par like he was during 9/11 but par. Which I would expect for everything else he has on his plate (without actually knowing his full daily/weekly/monthly agenda).

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Ganalon]

Interesting. Seems that many of the usual Republican commentators don't share your assessment. I think that the government's response costs lives. Bush is ultimately responsible for the Nat'l Guard and FEMA. That's not to say that the Governors and the locals don't bear any responsibility because they do. I'm not out to paint Bush as an insensitive boob who doesn't know how to tie his shoes, but I think that the government's response was less than par. By A LOT. :shrug:

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by TheRoseLady]

[CrystalTears]

I sincerely don't think that his response time to NO was bad to gain this much criticism. Was it perfect? No. It never is and frankly I don't believe it can be. It can always be better, especially when you view the situation in hindsight.

I blame the local government more. The visual of that huge lot of buses just sitting there unused, and then yelling later that more buses were needed just irritated me the hell out of it.

Everyone could have done better, but the fault lies mostly with NO/LA.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I sincerely don't think that his response time to NO was bad to gain this much criticism. Was it perfect? No. It never is and frankly I don't believe it can be. It can always be better, especially when you view the situation in hindsight.

I blame the local government more. The visual of that huge lot of buses just sitting there unused, and then yelling later that more buses were needed just irritated me the hell out of it.

Everyone could have done better, but the fault lies mostly with NO/LA.

There's definitely a lot of he said, she said stuff happening. This one should have done this and that, and who didn't do this. The thing that sticks in me is that they had five days of warning. They all could have done much more preparation work - water, equipment, food. etc etc.

I'm sure that we'll be hearing a good deal in the future about what really went down.

What a mess.

[Artha]

The problem isn't having supplies, it's getting them to people. And as for flooding, good luck stopping high water getting into a city that's below sea level.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Artha
The problem isn't having supplies, it's getting them to people. And as for flooding, good luck stopping high water getting into a city that's below sea level.

There was no way to have them in the upper regions of MS and NO ready to bring them in? Or to have the Superdome and Convention Center prepared for the folks who were coming for shelter? Or to have the busses in an area that kept them dry as CT pointed out?

They had five days warning, I don't understand why it took until Friday for stuff to arrive. Perhaps it boils down to leadership ( not necessarily Bush) but as the media has been mentioning, a Guiliani to step up to the plate.

When an area about the size of England gets WTFPWNED I want you to co-ordinate efforts to rescue quickly.

Oh yeah.. Germany and parts of Europe were just getting smacked up in some flood too. Nothing as bad in the states, but that shit took its toll too.

FUCK GEORGE BUSH FOR CAUSING HURRICANES>

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Or to have the Superdome and Convention Center prepared for the folks who were coming for shelter?

Whose responsibility is this? Wouldn't this fall under local government to provide for their own city? Wasn't FEMA there the day after the storm broke? How far does the federal government need to be holding the hand of the mayor for them to do some kind of preventive measures of their own?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Artha
The problem isn't having supplies, it's getting them to people. And as for flooding, good luck stopping high water getting into a city that's below sea level.

There was no way to have them in the upper regions of MS and NO ready to bring them in? Or to have the Superdome and Convention Center prepared for the folks who were coming for shelter? Or to have the busses in an area that kept them dry as CT pointed out?

They had five days warning, I don't understand why it took until Friday for stuff to arrive. Perhaps it boils down to leadership ( not necessarily Bush) but as the media has been mentioning, a Guiliani to step up to the plate.

Holy shit you have no clue. I had to double check your location and Ohio helps explain it a little I guess.

[fiendwish]

The buck stops with Bush when it comes to the Federal response to a disaster of this magnitude. He's a lightweight, and it's scary that he's in charge. I'd really like to see someone who inspires our confidence at the helm, but darned if I can name one man capable of rising to the demands of the times we live in. So we do what we can with what we've got, and hope for the best.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Xyelin
Holy shit you have no clue. I had to double check your location and Ohio helps explain it a little I guess.

Right, I don't. Which is why I am asking questions. Since you seem to know a lot - share your knowledge.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Xyelin
Holy shit you have no clue. I had to double check your location and Ohio helps explain it a little I guess.

Right, I don't. Which is why I am asking questions. Since you seem to know a lot - share your knowledge.

I have.. read any of the pertinent threads.



[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Xyelin]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Or to have the Superdome and Convention Center prepared for the folks who were coming for shelter?

Whose responsibility is this? Wouldn't this fall under local government to provide for their own city? Wasn't FEMA there the day after the storm broke? How far does the federal government need to be holding the hand of the mayor for them to do some kind of preventive measures of their own?

I guess the Federal Government needs to do what they were designed to do, and that is what FEMA is for. Really, no one is giving a free pass to NO, LA or MS - but to drill it down to hand holding almost angers me. People died CT because they had no food or water. What would you have had the mayor of NO do differently that you think would have made it so that people had water?

What is the purpose of FEMA and the National Guard? Isn't this disaster the kind of thing that we have spent the last four years trying to prepare for?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the state and locals have no responsibility but to call the job of FEMA and the National Guard hand holding....well, leaves me speechless.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Xyelin
Holy shit you have no clue. I had to double check your location and Ohio helps explain it a little I guess.

Right, I don't. Which is why I am asking questions. Since you seem to know a lot - share your knowledge.

I have.. read any of the pertinent threads.



[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Xyelin]

:lol: Just what I had thought.

[Gan]

The Federal government can not take charge of the local or state forces (national guard) unless invited to do so by the govenor of that state. Bush asked, and was denied by the govenor of LA (Federalizing the guard troops).

His response was adequate, not stellar, but adequate. Was FEMA prepared? If at all, barely. The record is not clear yet on what all they did before and during the storm... only what was done after.

I also heard, several sources now, that the state Dept. of Homeland security for LA had denied FEMA/Red Cross from setting up in New Orleans proper the day after Katrina blew through because they did not want to draw more people to the super dome site.

It is still very sketchy because all the action reports are not in, nor are we done with the rescue efforts. However, I still think Bush had a clue, acted appropriately, and responded adequately according to the rights and limitations he could do when balancing what the Federal Govt. can do inside an individual State.

All those screaming for heads prematurely are just knee jerking while in panic mode.

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Ganalon]

[Artha]

George W. Bush: 345 days
Ronald Reagen: 335 days

10 more days off than the guy who pretty much ended the Cold War, oh noes.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Xyelin
Holy shit you have no clue. I had to double check your location and Ohio helps explain it a little I guess.

Right, I don't. Which is why I am asking questions. Since you seem to know a lot - share your knowledge.

I have.. read any of the pertinent threads.



[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Xyelin]

:lol: Just what I had thought.

?? So you are posting stupid remarks without having read the threads from start to end? That's just what I had thought.

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Xyelin]

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Artha

George W. Bush: 345 days
Ronald Reagen: 335 days

10 more days off than the guy who pretty much ended the Cold War, oh noes.

Huh?? I thought jelly beans ended the cold war?

[Keller]

After reading WB's first response in this thread I've decided not to wade through more rhetorical bullshit from either side.

Suffice to say that I've a personal relationship with Ben Stein and he's a very caring and thoughtful man. I've the upmost respect for him although our political persuasions are not the same I don't believe you can even BEGIN to compare him to Michael Moore.

PS - I might find time later this evening to actually read this thread and respond in part -- so this is not a promise you'll not hear from me again -- just a quick note to further my procrastination.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
I guess the Federal Government needs to do what they were designed to do, and that is what FEMA is for. Really, no one is giving a free pass to NO, LA or MS - but to drill it down to hand holding almost angers me. People died CT because they had no food or water. What would you have had the mayor of NO do differently that you think would have made it so that people had water?

What is the purpose of FEMA and the National Guard? Isn't this disaster the kind of thing that we have spent the last four years trying to prepare for?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the state and locals have no responsibility but to call the job of FEMA and the National Guard hand holding....well, leaves me speechless.

Okay hand holding was a bit much for me to say. But people speak as though Bush himself should have been there in the superdome handing out food. When does it stop being a local government responsibility and now in the federal's hands? When a category 5 is about to hit Florida, why isn't Bush being yelled at to provide them with food and water beforehand?

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Xyelin
Holy shit you have no clue. I had to double check your location and Ohio helps explain it a little I guess.

Right, I don't. Which is why I am asking questions. Since you seem to know a lot - share your knowledge.

I have.. read any of the pertinent threads.



[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Xyelin]

:lol: Just what I had thought.

?? So you are posting stupid remarks without having read the threads from start to end? That's just what I had thought.

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by Xyelin]

You're the one who said I have no clue and now I'm posting stupid remarks. I've been reading the threads. I don't really seem to recall anything that clearly outlines who is responsible for what. I am not a bit ashamed to admit that I don't know and am posing the questions. If you wish to take a swipe at me, then at least man up and provide the information that you seem to possess since I have "no clue". If you don't wish to do that then STFU.

[Sean of the Thread]

Like I said.. read the pertinent threads. Anyways I didn't mean to take a swipe at you. I just read your first post as a little more bitchy then it was meant to be evidently.

Anyways I apologize and now you can STFU.

P.s. Michael Moore is a fatso.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Okay hand holding was a bit much for me to say. But people speak as though Bush himself should have been there in the superdome handing out food. When does it stop being a local government responsibility and now in the federal's hands? When a category 5 is about to hit Florida, why isn't Bush being yelled at to provide them with food and water beforehand?

I agree. It's not like Bush was saying "withhold the food and water" here's our chance to reduce the number of blacks or poors. I guess that it's kind of normal for people to look for places to place the blame. With 911 we had the terrorists to blame and Guiliani and Bush were "large and in charge". We are missing that sort of leadership here. I'm sure that time will sort it out and hopefully we'll never have the sort of fuckups that have occurred at all levels of government with this disaster.

I'm still trying to understand what the response normally is under a disaster that isn't of this magnitude.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Xyelin
Like I said.. read the pertinent threads. Anyways I didn't mean to take a swipe at you. I just read your first post as a little more bitchy then it was meant to be evidently.

Anyways I apologize and now you can STFU.

P.s. Michael Moore is a fatso.

:lol: Damn, if you weren't so funny I wouldn't like you so much.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

If you think his vacations are relaxing in the least.. you know nothing about American politics.

-Parkbandit


If he's on "vacation", does it always have to be in a venue for vital American interests? I'm sure riding a horse or falling off one of those motor scooters isn't exactly vital American interests either.

-Parkbandit

I'm not really seeing these as reconciling.

That is your problem WB.. you cannot see shades of grey. It's either Black or White with you. If he's on vacation.. he must be completely relaxing. When someone says a President is on vacation, it's a working vacation.. you translate that as he's working, so he can't relax.

Stop being narrow minded... it's not becoming.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
Ok, here we go again. All scientific evidence is supposed to be thrown out the window with the simple (simple as in moronic) comment that the climate has been changing EVEN WITOUT HUMANS DUH.

Yeah, because big fucking meteors hit and threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere. Because a hundred fucking volcanos threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere.

No life form in the history of Earth has had this kind of impact on the planet. The evidence is right in front of peoples godamn faces and they are still to godamn stupid to understand it.

The cyclical climatic changes that the earth has gone through has nothing to do with meteors.

I am not saying that humans have had no effect on the environment... I am saying that there is no evidence that humans have caused global warming.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Artha
The problem isn't having supplies, it's getting them to people. And as for flooding, good luck stopping high water getting into a city that's below sea level.

There was no way to have them in the upper regions of MS and NO ready to bring them in? Or to have the Superdome and Convention Center prepared for the folks who were coming for shelter? Or to have the busses in an area that kept them dry as CT pointed out?

They had five days warning, I don't understand why it took until Friday for stuff to arrive. Perhaps it boils down to leadership ( not necessarily Bush) but as the media has been mentioning, a Guiliani to step up to the plate.

BINGO! WE HAVE US A WINNER.

Guiliani was the Mayor of NYC. Not the President. He didn't have the luxury of a 3-4 days notice.. he had no notice, yet look how he handled the situation.

The problem in New Orleans.. as I have been saying since Day 1.. is the corrupt leadership in the city and the state. 3 days notice that a cat 4 or 5 hurricane was coming to New Orleans.. and from what I can tell, they did very little in preparing for it. At the very least, they didn't follow their own plan very well.

It's called the "Big Easy" for a reason... decades of palm greasing, kickbacks and corruption.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
Ok, here we go again. All scientific evidence is supposed to be thrown out the window with the simple (simple as in moronic) comment that the climate has been changing EVEN WITOUT HUMANS DUH.

Yeah, because big fucking meteors hit and threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere. Because a hundred fucking volcanos threw a ton of fucking shit into the atmosphere.

No life form in the history of Earth has had this kind of impact on the planet. The evidence is right in front of peoples godamn faces and they are still to godamn stupid to understand it.

The cyclical climatic changes that the earth has gone through has nothing to do with meteors.

I am not saying that humans have had no effect on the environment... I am saying that there is no evidence that humans have caused global warming.

I find it difficult to understand how you claim there is no evidence when a world of respected scientists and countries all agree that there is and have dedicated themselves to doing something about it.

From what it sounds like to me, given the evidence, you choose to believe what you want despite what has been shown to be real. Its like still believing the Earth is flat.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Artha
The problem isn't having supplies, it's getting them to people. And as for flooding, good luck stopping high water getting into a city that's below sea level.

There was no way to have them in the upper regions of MS and NO ready to bring them in? Or to have the Superdome and Convention Center prepared for the folks who were coming for shelter? Or to have the busses in an area that kept them dry as CT pointed out?

They had five days warning, I don't understand why it took until Friday for stuff to arrive. Perhaps it boils down to leadership ( not necessarily Bush) but as the media has been mentioning, a Guiliani to step up to the plate.

BINGO! WE HAVE US A WINNER.

Guiliani was the Mayor of NYC. Not the President. He didn't have the luxury of a 3-4 days notice.. he had no notice, yet look how he handled the situation.

The problem in New Orleans.. as I have been saying since Day 1.. is the corrupt leadership in the city and the state. 3 days notice that a cat 4 or 5 hurricane was coming to New Orleans.. and from what I can tell, they did very little in preparing for it. At the very least, they didn't follow their own plan very well.

It's called the "Big Easy" for a reason... decades of palm greasing, kickbacks and corruption.

A state of emergency and mandatory evacuation were called by them before the storm even hit. The governor had requested funds for emergency before the storm even hit. People were told to head for the Superdome and Convention Center.

Where I see the breakdown is FEMA. Brown did not even know there were people at the Convention Center until Thursday by his own admission.

If Bush is at fault for anything its for restructuring FEMA and setting up a buddy of his as director when the guy was not fit for the job. Oh, and the fact that when Bush was in LA last Friday, all airspace as locked down during the duration of his visit meaning nobody and no supplies went anywhere by air during those hours.

[Jazuela]

Looks like folks are getting the timeline all screwy.

The National Hurricane center announced that Katrina was *expected* to turn to a category 4 or 5, and announced this on August 26 in the late afternoon. A few hours after this announcement, the Governors of Mississippi and Louisiana declared a state of emergency *in preparation* of the forcasted disaster.

That was Friday, late afternoon. The storm was still only a category 2, and hadn't quite completed its path through Florida. The two states had already declared states of emergency, long before the storm -actually- turned into a cat 5, and days before it touched ground in the southern tip of Louisiana.

The *actual* hurricane warning for Louisiana didn't get announced until August 27. At that point, the Mayor of New Orleans declared his own state of emergency and urged (but hadn't ordered yet) the low-laying areas of the city evacuated. The storm was in the gulf by this time, and still hadn't yet arrived.

Hancock County in Louisiana (around 60 miles east of New Orleans) was also given a mandatory evacuation order on August 27.
Mayor Nagin then declared a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans on August 28 (a day after he had already begun urging people to leave).

The hurricane finally arrived on land at 7 in the morning on August 29, and diverted eastward, its eye missing New Orleans.

So - The storm hit the 29th. It didn't turn into a cat 4/5 until the 27th, and the two hardest hit states had already declared states of emergencies state-wide AND in specific locations (including New Orleans) AND had ordered evacuations in specific locations (including New Orleans) a full day before they actually saw the storm.

Who's to blame for this that and the other thing I'll leave to whoever wants to yack about it. But it would really help the discussion if you don't exaggerate, or make up dates to suit the emotion of your post. They didn't have 5 days notice, or even 3 days notice. The storm wasn't a cat 4 until 2 days before it hit. Caution prior to that was in order, and caution was taken. Whether more caution could have, would have, or should have been taken...I dunno. But it wasn't 5 days notice, because 5 days prior it was just a tropical depression strengthening east of Florida, and that is VERY common in the south during hurricane seasion and not worthy of urgent concern.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Jazuela
But it would really help the discussion if you don't exaggerate, or make up dates to suit the emotion of your post.

Yeah, I think the pot is calling the kettle black here. Like you've not out and out lied to suit your position.

You act as if it was intentional because we have so much on the line here. We don't. We're just talking, but since you have made it a point to google yourself up a timeline, I'll be checking your facts.

You can thank me later.

[Terminator X]

Ben Stein is awesome, but this is far worse jargon than Moore's witty jabs, considering most of it is fact, with the spin of, "George W. B. didn't cause it."

I, just like Mr. Stein, can also elaborate on the many factual things that King George II has or has not been responsible for; The extinction of the dinosaurs, discovering penicillin, having a cumulative C+ or higher college GPA, etcetera...

However, and I guess in short, the difference between the Moore whining and the Stein whining, to me, seems Moore's "whining" is hell of a lot more vindictive than Stein's whining :shrug:

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
BINGO! WE HAVE US A WINNER.

Guiliani was the Mayor of NYC. Not the President. He didn't have the luxury of a 3-4 days notice.. he had no notice, yet look how he handled the situation.

The problem in New Orleans.. as I have been saying since Day 1.. is the corrupt leadership in the city and the state. 3 days notice that a cat 4 or 5 hurricane was coming to New Orleans.. and from what I can tell, they did very little in preparing for it. At the very least, they didn't follow their own plan very well.

It's called the "Big Easy" for a reason... decades of palm greasing, kickbacks and corruption.

I agree that Mayor Nagin of New Orleans has been, while understandably upset, not the bastion of strength that I think his city needed during its worst crisis in memory. He has been praised by some for being real and true to his feelings and expressing them on national television coverage, pulling few punches in his willingnes to criticize anyone and everyone.

I have also been one to say that I thought that Rudy Guiliani did a great job, but I feel I must point out a few differences in the situations faced.

On 9/11 the damage was contained in something less than 20 city blocks. Tthe most possible cassualties if the buildings had been hit at thier most full and had collapsed instantly would still have been less than 50K or so.

The city of New York recieved nearly instantaneous assistance from the states of NY, NJ, CT and PA and much more arrived from around the nation in days.

A very important fact also that is lost somewhat when people compare responses is that NYC has an army of it's own. The NYPD is the nations largest police force by FAR with a force of just under forty thousand. I think the next largest is Chicago with a little more than half the officers that NY has. New Orleans had at full strength before Katrina about 1500.

Mayor Nagins resources are quite simply a tiny fraction of those that were available to NYC after 9/11, yet having to try to help a much larger number of people spread out over an immensely larger area.

An interesting and somewhat uplifting article was in the NYTimes talking about the hundreds of NYPD officers who have arrived in NO to help.

Remembering Help Received After Sept. 11, New York Sends Officers to Louisiana <--------------Click for Link to NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national/nationalspecial/07nypd.html?oref=login&pagewanted=print)


By AL BAKER

HARAHAN, La., Sept. 6 - Some New York City police officers who arrived here over the last few days were serving on the front lines of a national crisis for a second time. They had been there, too, when the attack on the World Trade Center, a man-made disaster, took the lives of 23 members of their department.

The New York police volunteers arrived in caravans only a few days before the fourth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attack and set out, often without sleep, on search-and-rescue, security, evacuation and patrol missions. To exhausted police and emergency crews in Louisiana, they are an army of relief, their numbers and discipline providing steady hands in a challenging situation.

By Tuesday afternoon, there were 303 New York officers, the largest deployment outside the city in the department's history, said Thomas Reppetto, a police historian who helped write "NYPD: A City and Its Police," (Henry Holt, 2000).

They are working mainly around New Orleans, but some members of the department's elite Emergency Service Unit are working in Hancock, Miss., near Biloxi, where 500 houses were blown off their foundations. One of their jobs there is to slog through eight-inch-thick mud and cover bodies with tarps so they can be picked up later.

Those who remember the 2001 attacks said the devastation they faced this time was much different.

"We were in a 16-acre disaster zone that went for 10 or 12 blocks," said Inspector Thomas Graham, a 33-year veteran who commands the Disorder Control Unit, based in the Bronx.

"Here, there is no water," Inspector Graham said. "There is no electricity. I've got my people housed in a nursing home. There's not enough water pressure to take a shower. And the death toll, I think, is going to be more severe.

"We had a toxic stew because of the fires and the dust," he continued. "Their toxic stew is you cannot drink any water from the tap, because of the pollution, because of the dead bodies in the canals."

Some of the first New York officers to arrive were quickly put to work on Sunday helping provide transportation for National Guard troops who were moving into New Orleans. On Tuesday, some were dispatched west of the city.

Many of the officers have military experience. Others sent south were chosen because they had expertise in large search-and-rescue operations or building collapses.

When they think back on Sept. 11, Inspector Graham and many others who arrived from New York remember especially that officers from New Orleans were among the first to join them at ground zero.

"They were there in the first 24 to 48 hours," Inspector Graham said. "Not our request, they just came. They got on a bus and headed up. During 9/11 they were cooking gumbo and feeding us. So, when we got a request for Jefferson Parish, I think that is one of the reasons we came."

With more than 2,000 additional officers having volunteered from station houses around New York's five boroughs and the relief effort entering a longer, more grueling phase, more officers from the city may be on the way, officials said, raising questions about whether New York could afford to give up that many officers, even temporarily.

New York's police commissioner, Raymond W. Kelly, has characterized his department's effort as one small way to pay back the nation for all the help it received after Sept. 11. And police officials pointed out that while 303 officers from New York represented less than 1 percent of the department's 38,000 officers, they represented about 20 percent of New Orleans's 1,500-member force. In addition, a significant number of officers in New Orleans have resigned or abandoned the force, others are unaccounted for, and two have committed suicide in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

The New York officers are working under an agreement with Louisiana that gives them full law-enforcement authority. State and local officials outline the mission and determine where the New York officers are most needed.

In smaller areas, like Jefferson Parish and Harahan, calls are being dispatched by local police departments and communicated to the New York officers, who are supervised by their own commanders, including two inspectors, an assistant chief, several captains, lieutenants and sergeants.

"Right now the chain of command is what it normally is in the N.Y.P.D.," said the department's chief spokesman, Paul J. Browne. "At the higher level we get guidance as to how they want us deployed. And their supervisory people are in with our sergeants so they can have joint face-to-face communication out on patrols."

Inspector Graham said officers had "started to create our own radio network," using a repeater on a truck, to get up to 10 miles of coverage and help cope with spotty cellphone service.

Through it all, he said, residents have been "lovely to us, happy to see us."


(Edited to correct the size given for the NOPD and add one more sentence.)

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Skirmisher]

[Gan]

For those who havnt read Guiliani's book, its a good read. It explains how he developed command structures in each borough and how he met with and drilled for disasters such as 9/11. It also explained how he was in constant communication with the general public of NYC during and after the towers fell, telling them what to do and where to go. Communication was probably the biggest difference between 9/11 and Katrina with regards to what was lacking with the later. Once folks heard that they were to head to the Superdome, they heard nothing else.

As I've said in the other thread discussing this, asthings shake out you'll see that a majority of the 'blame' if there is to be any will reside on the local leadership then the state leadership and their inability to work together.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
That is your problem WB.. you cannot see shades of grey. It's either Black or White with you.

Black and white is the mantra and life blood of any extremist viewpoint or person subscribing to it. Whats ironic is its the same extreme application to the left that complains about the same extreme application to the right. In the end they both cancel each other out leaving the middle to carry the bulk of the responsibility. Reminds me of a giant bell curve.

[TheRoseLady]

A timeline per the NY Times. I believe that 4 Days vs 5 Days is what kind of notice they had. If you notice, Blanco issued her State of Emergency on Friday August 26th not the 27th as you noted. So, yes it wasn't five days - but if you plan on correcting folks with some condescending bitchy ass tone, you better make doubly sure your facts are 100% correct. Afterall, we were just discussing it. You, Roberta decided that it was imperative that we use an "accurate" timeline. Perhaps you could be expected to do the same. :smug:

Thurs August 25 (4 Days before it hits the Gulf Coast) Rising to a category 1 hurricane, Katrina is forecast to be "a dangerous hurricane in the northeastern Gulf of Mexico in about three days."

Gov. Jeb Bush declares a state of emergency for Florida.

Friday August 26 (3 Days before it hits the Gulf Coast) Katrina is forecast to move directly over the warm loop current of the Gulf of Mexico ... which is like adding high-octane fuel to the fire.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco declares a state of emergency for Louisiana.

Saturday August 27 (2 Days before it hits the Gulf Coast) Now a category 3 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson scale, Katrina is expected to make "landfall in southeastern Louisiana in 48-60 hours."

President Bush declares a state of emergency in Louisiana.
Gov. Haley Barbour declares a state of emergency in Mississippi.

Residents of New Orleans board up their homes. Voluntary evacuations are called in some parishes.

Sunday August 28 (1 Day before it hits the Gulf Coast)Now category 5, Katrina "is a large hurricane that will affect a large area .... Preparations should be rushed to completion."

Mayor Lee Nagin of New Orleans orders a mandatory evacuation.

From his Texas ranch, the president declares a state of emergency for Mississippi, Florida and Alabama.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency sends water, food and other supplies to staging centers in Georgia and Texas.

Lines form at gas stations and outside the Superdome, which takes in as many as 10,000 of the estimated 100,000 people who remain in the city.

Based on the size and track of the storm, computer models predict flooding across parts of the New Orleans.

Monday August 29 (Hurricane Hits) Katrina drops to a category 4 hurricane before it makes landfall, and dissipates to a tropical storm as it moves inland.

Officials estimate 80 percent of New Orleans residents obeyed the order to evacuate. The Coast Guard rescues 1,200 people from the flood waters.

Thousands of National Guard troops are called up to assist in relief operations.

FEMA search and rescue teams wait for the worst of the storm to pass before attempting to enter the disaster zone.

17th Street Canal and Industrial Canal levees are breached, pouring lake water into the city.

Tuesday August 30 (2 Day) The N.H.C. issues its final advisory on Tropical Depression Katrina, which "is primarily now a heavy rain event."

More than 12,000 people are in the Superdome. The international airport is reopened for relief flights.

President Bush cuts short his vacation. The city government of New Orleans regroups in Baton Rouge.

City hospitals flood. Mayor Nagin estimates that 80 percent of the city is underwater.

The Pentagon announces it will send five ships, though four are several days away.

Wednesday August 31 (3RD Day) Military transport planes carry seriously ill and injured patients to Houston; 1,400 police officers are ordered to cease rescue operations and control widespread looting.

Officials become aware of a breach at London Avenue Canal; pump stations are all offline.

Mayor Nagin calls for a total evacuation of the city. President Bush flies over the region on his way back to Washington and convenes a federal task force.

By Wednesday, FEMA has deployed 39 medical teams to set up field hospitals under tents, and mobilized 1,700 trailer trucks.

Thursday Sept 1 (4th Day)
As many as 45,000 refugees fill the Superdome and Convention Center, where conditions continue to deteriorate.

With flood levels stable, the Army Corps of Engineers continues to work on the breached levees.

The governor of Louisiana says that deaths may be in the "thousands."

Senate and House officials prepare a $10 billion emergency aid package.

Friday Sept 2 (Fifth Day)A large convoy of relief supplies arrives at the Convention Center. Commercial airlines begin flying people out of the city, and the Superdome begins to empty.

President Bush flies to Mobile, Ala., tours the disaster area and meets with survivors.

6,500 National Guard troops arrive in New Orleans; by day's end, nearly 20,000 troops are stationed in Louisiana and Mississippi.

An explosion at a chemical storage facility sends a column of acrid smoke into the sky.

Saturday Sept 3 (Sixth Day) Fewer than 2,000 people remain at the Superdome, and state officials say evacuations may be finished by today.

Pump stations may be activated as early as Monday.

In his weekly radio address, President Bush says "We will not rest until we get this right and the job is done."

10,000 additional National Guard troops are expected in the region within the next few days.

[TheRoseLady]

That's a very interesting point Skirm, thanks for pointing that out.

[Jazuela]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
A timeline per the NY Times. I believe that 4 Days vs 5 Days is what kind of notice they had. If you notice, Blanco issued her State of Emergency on Friday August 26th not the 27th as you noted. So, yes it wasn't five days - but if you plan on correcting folks with some condescending bitchy ass tone, you better make doubly sure your facts are 100% correct. Afterall, we were just discussing it. You, Roberta decided that it was imperative that we use an "accurate" timeline. Perhaps you could be expected to do the same. :smug:

Try reading again - note I haven't edited my post. It says the Louisiana Governor declared a state of emergency on the 26th. My facts are correct. If you want to prove me wrong, it would really be helpful if I was actually wrong, hm?

[Warriorbird]

"Stop being narrow minded"

All rappers are thugs, too. I know, I know, Parkbandit.

You and Ganalon never say anything extreme of course.

I think it breaks down to perspective. You two think of yourselves as moderates, I'm sure, whereas I think of myself as someone that once would've passed for a moderate (heck, I still don't espouse most of the Democratic ideals) but is now trying to keep a handle on an increasingly illogical, idealogical, and nationalistic political landscape.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"Stop being narrow minded"

All rappers are thugs, too. I know, I know, Parkbandit.

You and Ganalon never say anything extreme of course.

No all rappers arent thugs, sorry you feel that way.

And we pale in comparison to you and Backlash, or is that too radical a statement? :lol:

Perhaps we can make a poll!!!!!

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

"Perhaps we can make a poll!!!!! "

And get all the brainwashed masses to follow you. No, I've definitely got a siege mentality. I'm sure I'm outnumbered.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"Perhaps we can make a poll!!!!! "

And get all the brainwashed masses to follow you. No, I've definitely got a siege mentality. I'm sure I'm outnumbered.

Because we all know if someone doesnt agree with you they have to be brainwashed. :rolleyes: I'm sure the furry little guys who live up in the mountians all by themselves think the very same thing as well.

[Warriorbird]

I'm sure the furry little guys who live up in the mountians all by themselves think the very same thing as well.

The hobbits are glad that you believe in them.

Didn't a certain President who goes by the name Dubya get himself in trouble for a if you're not with us you're for the terrorists statement?

Naw, couldn't be.



[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Gan]

As idiotic as you make him out to be, he still winds up making you look foolish. If I were you I'd give him a lot more credit so as not to make you look so rediculous.

But thankfully I'm not you. So I'll just sit back and enjoy the laugh.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
[quote]

Didn't a certain President who goes by the name Dubya get himself in trouble for a if you're not with us you're for the terrorists statement?

Naw, couldn't be.



I don't remember him getting into any trouble. It was a great line at a very trying time in our history.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. About that extremism?

If he makes me look bad... then yes, America probably does deserve all we get.

Quoting McCarthy does not a great leader make.

[Terminator X]

Originally posted by Ganalon
For those who havnt read Guiliani's book, its a good read. It explains how he developed command structures in each borough and how he met with and drilled for disasters such as 9/11. It also explained how he was in constant communication with the general public of NYC during and after the towers fell, telling them what to do and where to go. Communication was probably the biggest difference between 9/11 and Katrina with regards to what was lacking with the later. Once folks heard that they were to head to the Superdome, they heard nothing else.

As I've said in the other thread discussing this, asthings shake out you'll see that a majority of the 'blame' if there is to be any will reside on the local leadership then the state leadership and their inability to work together.

I think we should travel back in time and give the people of New York City a 5-day warning, as well :rolleyes:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
Xyelin according to the show I saw on the Discovery channel if the Earth is 24 hours old, we have been here for the last 30 seconds. The Earth's age is about 4.5 billion years.
People have been around for 100 thousandish years (and I'd say that's being generous).
24 fun hours * 60 fun minutes / fun hour * 60 fun seconds / fun minute * 100,000 real years / 4,500,000,000 real years = 1.92 fun seconds. I think it's going to be a pretty hard sell to convince anyone that humans have been around for 1.5 million years.
Originally posted by Backlash
No life form in the history of Earth has had this kind of impact on the planet.What about algae?
Originally posted by TheRoseLady
From his Texas ranch, the president declares a state of emergency for Mississippi, Florida and Alabama.No that's impossible he was on vacation.

It's Giuliani.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Yeah. About that extremism?

If he makes me look bad... then yes, America probably does deserve all we get.

Quoting McCarthy does not a great leader make.

You only get what you seek, so attention it is, good or bad. But dont think that because you look bad so does America, because you represent only a miniscule part, even by your own words.

[Warriorbird]

No, Ganalon. I think America looks bad when, y'know, other countries say we do... and when it's made clear why by our actions.

:shrugs: I'm pretty content, honestly. I love my country. It doesn't mean I have to march to the beat of your drummer.

Check Bush's current ratings if you think I'm alone...even the Fox ones.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Terminator X

Originally posted by Ganalon
For those who havnt read Guiliani's book, its a good read. It explains how he developed command structures in each borough and how he met with and drilled for disasters such as 9/11. It also explained how he was in constant communication with the general public of NYC during and after the towers fell, telling them what to do and where to go. Communication was probably the biggest difference between 9/11 and Katrina with regards to what was lacking with the later. Once folks heard that they were to head to the Superdome, they heard nothing else.

As I've said in the other thread discussing this, asthings shake out you'll see that a majority of the 'blame' if there is to be any will reside on the local leadership then the state leadership and their inability to work together.

I think we should travel back in time and give the people of New York City a 5-day warning, as well :rolleyes:

You missed my point. NYC was much better prepared due to its strong leadership than NO ever was. So even without the warning of 9/11 the leadership performed 10x better than NO did even with the '5 day warning' as you put it.

[Warriorbird]

Once again, the "NO/Lousiana government is terrible!" line of spin does little to address levee issues/federal problems. I don't think the local government is completely without fault but trying to pass the buck is precisely the sort of thing Democrats get railed at by Republicans about.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
No, Ganalon. I think America looks bad when, y'know, other countries say we do... and when it's made clear why by our actions.

:shrugs: I'm pretty content, honestly. I love my country. It doesn't mean I have to march to the beat of your drummer.

Check Bush's current ratings if you think I'm alone...even the Fox ones.

Gosh, you mean we're unpopular with the French? Newsflash - we never were. The Germans? Newsflash - we never were - especially after WWII. China? Newsflash - we never were. Russia? Newsflash - bitter about the cold war? England? - still seem to have popularity there. Japan? - still seem to have support there. South America? Newsflash - we never were. Candada? Newsflash - we never were. Eastern Bloc? nope. Asian? nope. Middle East? nope. Australia? yep. It sucks to be successful - ask Bill Gates. Everyone shoots for the one on top. Its human nature to do so.

Sometimes you have to face some unpopularity in order to go against the grain, or to take action where no one else will, as you would well know with your views and postings here on the PC. I think you'll see in the long run that Bush Jr. expended his political capital wisely by the decisions he's made during his tenure. But thats if you have the fortitude to wait for the long run results.

I'm glad you love your country, I do mine too, and I show that by supporting the administration and its efforts, the good adn the bad, the popular and the unpopular.

How do you show your love for your country?

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Once again, the "NO/Lousiana government is terrible!" line of spin does little to address levee issues/federal problems. I don't think the local government is completely without fault but trying to pass the buck is precisely the sort of thing Democrats get railed at by Republicans about.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

The facts will speak for themselves... all's we have to have is patience. I promise I wont tell you "I told you so" when everything does come to light though. ;)

Edited: And you're a funny one to talk about 'spin'. You seem to have more expertise at it than I do. :lol:

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

Sure. Little mission for you. Go look at SELA budgets. The facts can speak for themselves.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Sure. Little mission for you. Go look at SELA budgets. The facts can speak for themselves.

Yes, because we all know that anything that has to do with Budgets is Bush's fault automatically. :deadhorse:

Tell you what, you cling to your reasoning, I'll cling to mine, and we'll see who's still floating 30 days from now. :lol:

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

How do you show your love for your country?"

By not knuckling under and continuing to belive in democracy, not a one party system. By donating blood and money to the Red Cross, working fundraising, doing work for MoveOn, doing work for NCPirg, tutoring, and helping out at my local library. In the past I volunteered and worked with the developmentally disabled. By paying my taxes. By helping my family. By giving free insurance consultations to local senior citizens. By assuring my friends from Europe that we all aren't wacked out gun nuts.

By voting with my consience to do my best to matter. By informing people about what's going on in our country and the world.

...and by reserving the right not to blindly follow Bush, or like him, just because, 'He's the President."

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Warriorbird]

Yes, because we all know that anything that has to do with Budgets is Bush's fault automatically.

And now you're down to using emoticons and forgetting what my position is. I blame Congress far more than the President for what's gone wrong. I think the New Orleans government and the Louisiana government weren't perfect, but unlike you, I don't reserve all blame for victims of incidents.

Go take a look at the SELA budgets. Investigate IEM. Knowledge is power.

Or if you're too lazy... this is from the heart of Republican country.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp



[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Gan]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

Yes, because we all know that anything that has to do with Budgets is Bush's fault automatically.

And now you're down to using emoticons and forgetting what my position is. I blame Congress far more than the President for what's gone wrong. I think the New Orleans government and the Louisiana government weren't perfect, but unlike you, I don't reserve all blame for victims of incidents.

Go take a look at the SELA budgets. Investigate IEM. Knowledge is power.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

Neither do I, as you wrongly stated my position above. Yes I fault the ones that stayed that had the means to leave. I fault the local leadership for not getting out the ones who did not have the means to leave. I fault the local leadership for not having better planning and execution of said emergency plan. I fault the local and state leadership for knowing that they planned, developed, and occupied an area that historically and strategically is at risk for major flooding at a cataclysmic level without excercising proper dilligence in ensuring the wellfare of said area was secure, with or without federal support. The hand that was busy seeking handouts would have been better utilized being put to work fixing the problem in the 30+ years that it was known to exist. States rights indeed, sure unless it comes down to providing for its own well being. :rolleyes:

I dont grasp at straws in order to find fault for something I dont support, I put the fault where I feel the fault deserves to be, not where others feel it should be because its trendy or emo.

And yes, emoticons are cool, otherwise we would not have 9 pages worth of them available to us for use in this forum. Their use does not implicit a lack of response or thought, just merely a visual aid to help determine the tone of said message. :!:

Edited to add: De ja vu - cute edit by the way. Go Fish...

With that said, I'm off to bed. Sorry I wont be around to banter with you tomorrow, busy day at work and all. So I'll try and catch up Friday and hopefully will have more updates to dispell more of the left wing smear campaign that has taken hold of the political circus in Washington at the expense of New Orleans evacuees.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Ganalon]

[Warriorbird]

So basically it all breaks down to despite the fact that there were Federal elements that failed, you won't put any of the blame there.

I just can't follow that line of reasoning, but it's pretty clear at the least how you feel.

Take a look at the SELA and IEM stuff so you're up on things. Have a great day at work. I have to study.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Keller]

Guys:

Go to bed. I promise nothing will have changed by morning.

[Amber]

[i]Originally posted by CrystalTears

Wasn't FEMA there the day after the storm broke?


Yes, but they sure don't seem to have known what they were doing. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/
FEMA supposedly didn't know that the survivors were gathering at the Superdome until Thursday, 09/01/05.

Yet from FEMA's own site, posted 8/31/05:
The Superdome, which is holding at least 10,000 evacuees, was surrounded by water on Tuesday. http://www.fema.gov/emanagers/2005/nat083105.shtm

This bugs me because stating that they didn't know there were people there when they obviously did is just out and out wrong. There are a million reasons they could have given for not getting help for these people quicker that would have been plausible. When all anyone had to do was turn on the TV or read a paper to learn there were thousands of people at the Superdome they can't honestly expect us to believe that they didn't know, especially when the information was given out on their very own website.



Actually, I believe it's easy to look back and criticize others for their actions or lack thereof. That's not really where we should be expending energy at the moment though, imo. We need to pull together and learn from the mistakes made so that such an event never happens again.

One thing I'm a bit worried about is that we've just demonstrated to the entire world that we're not prepared for a disaster. Have we just opened ourselves up for another terrorist attack?

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Jazuela

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
A timeline per the NY Times. I believe that 4 Days vs 5 Days is what kind of notice they had. If you notice, Blanco issued her State of Emergency on Friday August 26th not the 27th as you noted. So, yes it wasn't five days - but if you plan on correcting folks with some condescending bitchy ass tone, you better make doubly sure your facts are 100% correct. Afterall, we were just discussing it. You, Roberta decided that it was imperative that we use an "accurate" timeline. Perhaps you could be expected to do the same. :smug:


Try reading again - note I haven't edited my post. It says the Louisiana Governor declared a state of emergency on the 26th. My facts are correct. If you want to prove me wrong, it would really be helpful if I was actually wrong, hm?

Right you were wrong about the other, the Governor of Mississippi. :lol:

Regardless you're still wrong aren't you? hmm? If you weren't such a bitch about it to begin with, we wouldn't even be talking about. It would have been looked upon as an honest mistake and not one to bolster your post. :D

--- You said:
The National Hurricane center announced that Katrina was *expected* to turn to a category 4 or 5, and announced this on August 26 in the late afternoon. A few hours after this announcement, the Governors of Mississippi and Louisiana declared a state of emergency *in preparation* of the forcasted disaster.

Fact is:
Saturday August 27 (2 Days before it hits the Gulf Coast)

Gov. Haley Barbour declares a state of emergency in Mississippi.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by TheRoseLady]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Amber
Yes, but they sure don't seem to have known what they were doing. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/
FEMA supposedly didn't know that the survivors were gathering at the Superdome until Thursday, 09/01/05.

Yet from FEMA's own site, posted 8/31/05:
The Superdome, which is holding at least 10,000 evacuees, was surrounded by water on Tuesday. http://www.fema.gov/emanagers/2005/nat083105.shtm

This bugs me because stating that they didn't know there were people there when they obviously did is just out and out wrong. There are a million reasons they could have given for not getting help for these people quicker that would have been plausible. When all anyone had to do was turn on the TV or read a paper to learn there were thousands of people at the Superdome they can't honestly expect us to believe that they didn't know, especially when the information was given out on their very own website.



Actually, I believe it's easy to look back and criticize others for their actions or lack thereof. That's not really where we should be expending energy at the moment though, imo. We need to pull together and learn from the mistakes made so that such an event never happens again.

One thing I'm a bit worried about is that we've just demonstrated to the entire world that we're not prepared for a disaster. Have we just opened ourselves up for another terrorist attack?

I think you are referring to the convention center. That is the location that people were "shocked" to discover was full of thousands of people without food or water.

[Jazuela]

Your source is incorrect, RoseLady. I was watching CNN live when it they announced it, on August 26. The CNN timeline online confirms it. Both governors declared a state of emergency for their respective states late in the afternoon on August 26. CNN says it was at 4 PM.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/interactive/timeline.katrina/frameset.exclude.html

[CrystalTears]

One thing I'm a bit worried about is that we've just demonstrated to the entire world that Louisiana was not prepared for a disaster. Have we just opened ourselves up for another terrorist attack?

Fixed the quote a little bit. Comparing a natural disaster to terrorism is a bit reaching.

[Edited on 9/8/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Warriorbird]

Is it? Some prominent and fairly conservative theorists have done so. I know Dennis Hastert (or was it DeLay...I forget) caught a hell of a lot of flack from both sides of the isle for what he said, but I'm pretty sure he was echoing Richard Posner (http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2005/09/katrina_cost-be.html)'s thinking. Conservative or no, I think Posner is absolutely brilliant. I don't think this can be discounted off hand.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Valthissa]

I don't understand why conservatives are not mad as hell at their government. If you think the federal response to this disaster is acceptable I don't really know what to say to you. Local, state, and federal government failed the citizens of NO in delivery one the primary functions of government.

Conservatives are supposed to believe that a government's most basic duty is to safeguard the security of its citizenry. After 5 years in office this conservative administration should have done much better at responding to this hurricane. They have had 4 years to practice after 9/11 - 4 years and this is the best we can do?


Oh, let me get some things I take as given out of the way:

Global warming - not relevant to the discussion

Nagin - utterly incompetent

Blanco - see description of Nagin

Iraq - not relevant to the discussion

Levee funding - We'll need to look at funding over a long period of time to understand if this is a factor, so let's set it aside for this discussion


here is a link to the national response plan:

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml

It's a lot of reading, but I can't see where the federal response in any way measures up to the plans outlined in this document. This can't be read outside of the context of 9/11. We reformed government to (supposedly) better respond to just this sort of catastrophe. If this is typical of the results we will get in response to a disaster, we better rethink the whole Homeland Security Department concept.

Bush should fire Brown. Failure to do so will be evidence of his inabilility to reevaluate personnel decisions based on changing circumstances. He allowed a political appointment to head FEMA, he got unlucky that a hurricane hit NO, and now he must raise his hand, say he made a mistake, and make changes at FEMA. This is called accountability. It is supposed to be a primary feature of democratically elected governments. Conservatives are supposed to hold this as a core value.

The president is being unfairly attacked by people trying to score political points. So what? That's a fact of life in US politics. Partisans who care only about how this disaster affects the composition of the next congress reveal themselves by their words and actions. Have faith that the electorate can apportion blame between the local, state, and federal response to Katrina and pull the lever in the voting booth as needed.


C/Valth

[Back]

A point I’ve been trying to make for a while. So-called conservatives in power now are not traditional conservatives. They are something else entirely. Something new. Thus my using the term fascists.

[Hulkein]

You liberals are simply mis-reading us conservatives.

I don't think the federal level deserves ZERO blame. I don't think that at all.

What I do think is when every single liberal or Bush hater tries to put the bulk of this blame on him - when it's obvious that is an error - I and many other conservatives will respond accordingly in the opposite direction.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Valthissa
Entire post.


C/Valth :clap: 100% agreement.

I shudder to think of the ramifications of a man made disaster and/or attack on American soil as chaos ensues and finger pointing begins before rescue efforts get under way. Homeland security let alot of people down. I don't see how that can be disputed at all.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Hulkein
You liberals are simply mis-reading us conservatives.

I don't think the federal level deserves ZERO blame. I don't think that at all.

What I do think is when every single liberal or Bush hater tries to put the bulk of this blame on him - when it's obvious that is an error - I and many other conservatives will respond accordingly in the opposite direction.

:yeahthat:

[HarmNone]

Actually, upon reviewing the thread, I don't see anybody placing the blame SOLELY on the president. There were errors from the bottom to the top. To me, that's obvious. Trying to point a finger in any one direction, or trying to absolve any one official/agency of blame is not only head-in-the-sand foolish, it's also damned useless, at this point.

[DeV]

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

Preparing America

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

[Warriorbird]

Actually, upon reviewing the thread, I don't see anybody placing the blame SOLELY on the president.

Me either. Funny, that.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

Actually, upon reviewing the thread, I don't see anybody placing the blame SOLELY on the president.

Me either. Funny, that.

Well, yes, there is that. I think the fact that some conservatives are already jumping on the defend the federal government bandwagon is pretty telling about where THEY may feel the blame sits, when most people are questioning a plethora of sources about their involvement.

-M

[CrystalTears]

Well when many of the comments are "are you satisfied with Bush's response time" and "why was Bush on vacation during this" and "why did it take so long for the feds to send stuff", you kinda get the impression that they're largely pissed off at Bush and his administration.

[Warriorbird]

I think that's why it's difficult to have a political conversation these days. Then again, I think it's always been difficult to have a political conversation.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Actually, upon reviewing the thread, I don't see anybody placing the blame SOLELY on the president. There were errors from the bottom to the top. To me, that's obvious. Trying to point a finger in any one direction, or trying to absolve any one official/agency of blame is not only head-in-the-sand foolish, it's also damned useless, at this point.

I didn't realize the countries opinions and claims were contained in this thread.

I also don't believe I said solely, I said the bulk.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I think that's why it's difficult to have a political conversation these days. Then again, I think it's always been difficult to have a political conversation.

I agree with the rabid liberal. :yes:

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Well, yes, there is that. I think the fact that some conservatives are already jumping on the defend the federal government bandwagon is pretty telling about where THEY may feel the blame sits, when most people are questioning a plethora of sources about their involvement.

-M

If you look at other threads (not just this single one, which was made yesterday) that were made closer to the time the Hurricane hit, I think you'll see that the people laying blame show up before people defending.

There goes your claim and attempt at psychoanalysis.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
"why did it take so long for the feds to send stuff"I think this alone is a question that deserves to be asked and answered.

[Valthissa]

I'm your basic libertarian leaning conservative. I like divided government so I vote for both parties as a means to try and achieve that result.

I should have said in my post "we conservatives should be mad as hell at our federal government" and the people of Louisiana and NO should be angry over the failure of their state and local governments.

I think it is a mistake to defend Bush against charges from fringe elements. People are smart enough to know that signing a treaty wouldn't stop a hurricane. People are smart enough to know that evacuation planning is a local responsibility. They are also smart enough to recognize failing at the federal level. Since I live in Virginia and not Louisiana I'm working on what went wrong with our response by our national government.

Here’s what I've done (and I know it's very little):

I donated to the Red Cross in a $ for $ match with my company

I wrote a letter to my senators outlining my feelings about the failure of government to protect its citizens and my belief that having FEMA in the Homeland Security Department is a mistake.

I spoke with my congresswoman on the same subject.

I sent an email to my county supervisor asking him how mature the disaster plans for James City County are.

I've done this sort of thing before and you would be amazed at how much reaction I will get from the staffers from my actions.

If you want to make a difference I encourage everyone here to communicate with your elected officials (just take off your tin-foil hat first).

C/Valth

I forgot, this just in on levee funding...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462.html

WP so you need registration but notice that La. Corps of Engineeriing has the highest funding in the nation - it's what they did with money that may surprise you.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
A point I’ve been trying to make for a while. So-called conservatives in power now are not traditional conservatives. They are something else entirely. Something new. Thus my using the term fascists.

And thus your opinion being discounted greatly in my book. Obviously you've yet to comprehend the meaning of fascists.. my suggestion would be to read up on WWII.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by HarmNone
Actually, upon reviewing the thread, I don't see anybody placing the blame SOLELY on the president. There were errors from the bottom to the top. To me, that's obvious. Trying to point a finger in any one direction, or trying to absolve any one official/agency of blame is not only head-in-the-sand foolish, it's also damned useless, at this point.

I didn't realize the countries opinions and claims were contained in this thread.

I also don't believe I said solely, I said the bulk.

Your first sentence confuses me a bit. Did you mean country's or countries? If countries, which countries are we talking about and how does that relate to what I said? I mentioned nothing about any countries (or country's) opinion. :?:

As to your second sentence, to quote you:

"when every single liberal or Bush hater tries to put the bulk of this blame on him "

Excuse me? I'm a liberal, yet I've never tried to put the bulk of the blame on him. I'd say that's true of most of the posts I've read from those known to be other than staunch conservatives. I've said, all along, that this is a top to bottom fuck-up. Sooo..."every single liberal"? Watch the blanket statements. They'll turn around on you every time. ;)

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Hulkein
You liberals are simply mis-reading us conservatives.

I don't think the federal level deserves ZERO blame. I don't think that at all.

What I do think is when every single liberal or Bush hater tries to put the bulk of this blame on him - when it's obvious that is an error - I and many other conservatives will respond accordingly in the opposite direction.

Exactly my opinion.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Well when many of the comments are "are you satisfied with Bush's response time" and "why was Bush on vacation during this" and "why did it take so long for the feds to send stuff", you kinda get the impression that they're largely pissed off at Bush and his administration.

I think they are legitimate questions. It seems that the response to this disaster was slow coming. The question begs to be asked, who is to blame? I know politicians in Washington like to do the Potomac two step, where no one is blamed, but this time I think the question needs to be answered.

For now the various levels of Government need to focus on cleaning up this mess and providing the necessary aid to those poor people. Once this is done an Independent enquiry needs to be held and people need to be held accountable.

[Hulkein]

Not really in the mood to go into the semantics game or the 'BUT I R LIBERAL AND I NOT SAY THAT.'

I obviously don't mean every single liberal on the planet, it is a figure of speech, dear.

Here, how about this....

I didn't realize every single opinion from citizens of the United States were voiced in this thread.

That meaning, just because liberals in this two day old thread are not blaming Bush does not mean it isn't happening... Understand?

Now, I hope you also know the difference between the definitions of the words solely and bulk, because I said bulk, and you responded saying you didn't see people SOLELY blaming Bush.

I know you've said all along it isn't just Bush's fault HarmNone, and I probably agree with your opinion on the disaster more than others.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Hulkein]

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
A point I’ve been trying to make for a while. So-called conservatives in power now are not traditional conservatives. They are something else entirely. Something new. Thus my using the term fascists.

And thus your opinion being discounted greatly in my book. Obviously you've yet to comprehend the meaning of fascists.. my suggestion would be to read up on WWII.

Neo Conservatives with little regard for civil rights or budding Facists maybe better descriptions.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Well when many of the comments are "are you satisfied with Bush's response time" and "why was Bush on vacation during this" and "why did it take so long for the feds to send stuff", you kinda get the impression that they're largely pissed off at Bush and his administration.

I think they are legitimate questions. It seems that the response to this disaster was slow coming. The question begs to be asked, who is to blame? I know politicians in Washington like to do the Potomac two step, where no one is blamed, but this time I think the question needs to be answered.


Yes, they are reasonable questions, but they should be asked in ADDITION to "what was the local government doing", "what parts of their own disaster plans did they act on", "why didn't they act on the evacuation mandate, before and after the hurricane", "why are they dragging their feet in response and wasting time with blame issues and racial bitching".

I'm just glad that more and more people are pulling some of their blame off Bush and focusing on the local government, which is what people have been stating for a while.

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Well, yes, there is that. I think the fact that some conservatives are already jumping on the defend the federal government bandwagon is pretty telling about where THEY may feel the blame sits, when most people are questioning a plethora of sources about their involvement.

-M

I place the primary portion of the blame on the incompentent major of New Orleans, Nagrin.

His first reaction was to sit and wait, and then blame everyone else, the State, the Fed, and the White Oppression.

There was so much that a capable mayor would had done, and there was plently of forewarning to make the appropriate decisions and implement them.

Nevermind the distinct lack of a diaster plan in the event of NO being flooded... apparently "send them to the Superdome and hope for the best" was it.

.

The state of Louisana probably could had forcibly intervened sooner when it was apparent the that major was incompent (probably was known prior to Katrina). Possibly could had arranged for additional police, national guard, to be in position on standby... instead of waiting for the Fed to arrive and save the day.

.

As for the Fed, the more I learn, the more it seems that the Fed did have some resources (manpower and equipment) in place but ultimately moved in too late (primarily due to lack of communication from the local and state level, generating the impression that Federal resources may not be needed with such anticipated urgency).

.

I think there were two elements that contributed to the extraordinary passive management of the local and state level.

1) they desired to hope for the best and not make the mistake of overspending in unnecessary preparations (a lose-lose situation there, but I say "wasting" money in mitigating a disaster is nowhere near as bad as resources wasted for cleanup)

2) for matter of self-image and ego, they did not want to rely on the next level up (local on state, state on federal) in ignorant pride ... and when they realized that they were in over their head, and finally called for help, it was too late as the damage was done

.

If anything, Katrina demonstrates the vulnerability of Beaucracy ... especially when there is personality, corruption, and laziness involved.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
A point I’ve been trying to make for a while. So-called conservatives in power now are not traditional conservatives. They are something else entirely. Something new. Thus my using the term fascists.

And thus your opinion being discounted greatly in my book. Obviously you've yet to comprehend the meaning of fascists.. my suggestion would be to read up on WWII.

Neo Conservatives with little regard for civil rights or budding Facists maybe better descriptions.

And welcome to the same category that I shoved Backlash into.

Heil Bush.

[Warriorbird]

Just something to note:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1509021/20050907/index.jhtml?headlines=true

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
A point I’ve been trying to make for a while. So-called conservatives in power now are not traditional conservatives. They are something else entirely. Something new. Thus my using the term fascists.

And thus your opinion being discounted greatly in my book. Obviously you've yet to comprehend the meaning of fascists.. my suggestion would be to read up on WWII.

Neo Conservatives with little regard for civil rights or budding Facists maybe better descriptions.

And welcome to the same category that I shoved Backlash into.

Heil Bush.

Perhaps you have forgotten The Project for a New American Century that so many members of the current administration are/were apart of.

LINK (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm)

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Just something to note:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1509021/20050907/index.jhtml?headlines=true

Yes, Bush should fire Brown ASAP.

I think Brown was more concerned about overspending (due to the initial assessment that the storm may not have been as damaging as feared) than ensuring that all was well.

Editted to add: Of course, the poor decision contributed to increasing Federal expenses by a huge magnitude instead.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Atlanteax]

[Warriorbird]

I think all the turmoil distracts us from the positive efforts that have been done in the aftermath, including those done by a lot of the folks posting here.

Even video game characters are helping every way they can.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3873/11260550696364za.jpg

[DeV]

Originally posted by Atlanteax

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Just something to note:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1509021/20050907/index.jhtml?headlines=true

Yes, Bush should fire Brown ASAP.

I think Brown was more concerned about overspending (due to the initial assessment that the storm may not have been as damaging as feared) than ensuring that all was well.

Editted to add: Of course, the poor decision contributed to increasing Federal expenses by a huge magnitude instead.

[Edited on 9-8-2005 by Atlanteax] In his own words... " I serve totally at the will of the President of the United States". This guy can't even seem to take responsibility for his own actions or inactions of an agency he is in charge of governing. Sad state of affairs.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by xtc
I think they are legitimate questions.Nobody said they were illegitimate questions, people said they indicated that other people were interested in Bush's responsibility in the disaster, which had been denied earlier. Two-step indeed.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
I think they are legitimate questions.Nobody said they were illegitimate questions, people said they indicated that other people were interested in Bush's responsibility in the disaster, which had been denied earlier. Two-step indeed.

Except that people are interested in the systems failures that contributed, which Bush is a part of. Governing is like an organism with various parts that work together. This disaster points out to me that our government is a failure at various levels. IMO, there's plenty of blame to go around.

Who is responsible for maintaining pumps/facilities within their states?

Who in their right MIND decided that concentrating thousands of miserable people in a small area instead of doing the best they could to remove them in small chunks was a good idea?

Who did not contact Amtrak and the Air Lines and make a direct plea directly AFTER the storm to get those people removed?

What states offered aid to MS and NO (ie send your dislocated here in the event of an emergency) prior to Katrina's strike?

Local level governments do not have the resources to evacuate 300,000 people, so who was responsible for evacuating the portion of those individuals in NO that could not escape?

In the event of a coming or existent disaster, local governments are supposed to turn to FEMA.

FEMA screwed the pooch, as we're all aware.

Who is responsible for FEMA?

Who suggests budget cuts to ACoE?

Who approves and signs said budget cuts into existence?

Who has the power to veto them if he/she should disagree?

Who was warned repeatedly that NO was a sitting duck unless corps could revamp the levee system?

Who had a training meeting within a united states organization on how to deal with a cat 5 hurricane disaster in recent proximity to Katrina's landfall?

Who insisted that director of FEMA was doing a 'helluva' job in NO as fed resources ran out on LO?

Who is commander in chief with ultimate responsibility to those who elected him?

Who was so insensitive to the needs of starving people to label them all LOOTERS with a no tolerance policy after days without clean water, food, and sanitation?

Who scrapped the mission of the air corps to standby on the borders of said states, waiting to provide presence and population control two days before the hurricane hit?

Who called in the guard only after FEMA ran away?

As you can see, I have many questions, though I won't believe the spin that the people of new orleans are to blame for being physically unable to escape the storm, nor will I believe the spin that the local governments shoulder the entire blame, unless they had not contacted the federal government and requested aid prior to the hurricane's landfall, which they did, days before.

Like HN has said, and I'll mention it myself, this is a clusterfuck of failings, lack of foresight, and ignorance on numerous levels at numerous times.

-M

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Jazuela
Your source is incorrect, RoseLady. I was watching CNN live when it they announced it, on August 26. The CNN timeline online confirms it. Both governors declared a state of emergency for their respective states late in the afternoon on August 26. CNN says it was at 4 PM.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/interactive/timeline.katrina/frameset.exclude.html

A quick Google confirms that three top news organizations, aside from the NY Times say Saturday August 27th. Your sources are wrong.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/katrina/katrina_timeline.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168413,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9189357/

Let me know if you need even more citations.

[Sean of the Thread]

Thursday, Sept. 8, 2005 11:38 a.m. EDT

Ray Nagin: School Buses Not Good Enough

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin garnered a ton of publicity with a profanity-laced interview he gave to WWL radio last Thursday, where he blasted President Bush and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco for not coming to rescue his city in time.

However, Nagin's most newsworthy comments - where he explained why he didn't use hundreds of city school buses to evacuate his city's flood victims - went almost unnoticed.

Story Continues Below

Turns out, Nagin turned his nose up at the yellow buses, demanding more comfortable Greyhound coaches instead.

"I need 500 buses, man," he told WWL. "One of the briefings we had they were talking about getting, you know, public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out of here."

Nagin described his response:

"I'm like - you've got to be kidding me. This is a natural disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

While Nagin was waiting for his Greyhound fleet, Katrina's floodwaters swamped his school buses, rendering them unusable.

I also saw video of a SHITLOAD of I guess those buses all flooded out because he waited to long. Personally I think nagin is a dumbass and is to blame for alot of this shit as well.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Xyelin
Thursday, Sept. 8, 2005 11:38 a.m. EDT

Ray Nagin: School Buses Not Good Enough

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin garnered a ton of publicity with a profanity-laced interview he gave to WWL radio last Thursday, where he blasted President Bush and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco for not coming to rescue his city in time.

However, Nagin's most newsworthy comments - where he explained why he didn't use hundreds of city school buses to evacuate his city's flood victims - went almost unnoticed.

Story Continues Below

Turns out, Nagin turned his nose up at the yellow buses, demanding more comfortable Greyhound coaches instead.

"I need 500 buses, man," he told WWL. "One of the briefings we had they were talking about getting, you know, public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out of here."

Nagin described his response:

"I'm like - you've got to be kidding me. This is a natural disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

While Nagin was waiting for his Greyhound fleet, Katrina's floodwaters swamped his school buses, rendering them unusable.

I also saw video of a SHITLOAD of I guess those buses all flooded out because he waited to long. Personally I think nagin is a dumbass and is to blame for alot of this shit as well.

Yes yes...because forcing people to wait for Greyhound busses (in mass inadequate sanitation) rather than take school busses with no adequate sanitation is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than having people pop a squat along the road at designated times.

WTF.

-M

[CrystalTears]

WTF yourself. You're saying that they SHOULD wait around for Greyhounds when they had perfectly acceptable modes of transportation available? Please tell me I read your post wrong.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
WTF yourself. You're saying that they SHOULD wait around for Greyhounds when they had perfectly acceptable modes of transportation available? Please tell me I read your post wrong.

Yeah, you read it wrong. She agrees that the busses should have been used.

[CrystalTears]

Whew! Sorry ES, didn't mean to assume but it didn't make sense to me at first. :blush:

[Jazuela]

Heh yeah Roselady, all three of those websites have the AP timeline. Y'know, the same Associated Press that reported the cops were shooting and killing contractors who were working to repair the levee...

The same AP that didn't even mention in their timeline that the Louisiana governor declared a state of emergency.

The same AP that didn't mention the National Hurricane Center had warned on the same day (August 26) that Katrina, while "only" a cat2 at the time, was gaining strength and expected to blow into a full cat5 on its way to New Orleans...

Go ahead and believe the AP. I'm sticking with what I saw, live, as it was occurring on CNN.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Jazuela
Heh yeah Roselady, all three of those websites have the AP timeline. Y'know, the same Associated Press that reported the cops were shooting and killing contractors who were working to repair the levee...

The same AP that didn't even mention in their timeline that the Louisiana governor declared a state of emergency.

The same AP that didn't mention the National Hurricane Center had warned on the same day (August 26) that Katrina, while "only" a cat2 at the time, was gaining strength and expected to blow into a full cat5 on its way to New Orleans...

Go ahead and believe the AP. I'm sticking with what I saw, live, as it was occurring on CNN.

Yeah, CNN vs. AP. Whatever floats your googe loving heart ;)

[Edited on 9-9-2005 by TheRoseLady]

[ElanthianSiren]

I do have to ask though, where we would send the busses with all those people on them, as other states did not volunteer their stadiums and public buildings until after the levees broke.

Perhaps FEMA could have coordinated an evacuation plan as this disaster clearly swept over more than one state.

-M

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
I do have to ask though, where we would send the busses with all those people on them, as other states did not volunteer their stadiums and public buildings until after the levees broke.

Perhaps FEMA could have coordinated an evacuation plan as this disaster clearly swept over more than one state.

-M

P.s. Thank you for another almost nipple signature.

[Warriorbird]

More on Brown.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1103003,00.html?cnn=yes

[Back]

Originally posted by Xyelin

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
I do have to ask though, where we would send the busses with all those people on them, as other states did not volunteer their stadiums and public buildings until after the levees broke.

Perhaps FEMA could have coordinated an evacuation plan as this disaster clearly swept over more than one state.

-M

P.s. Thank you for another almost nipple signature.

Thats the problem with you clueless people. You are just too dense to see the facts. I suppose there is a purpose for people like you in this world, though I can’t fathom it.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
Thats the problem with you clueless people. You are just too dense to see the facts. I suppose there is a purpose for people like you in this world, though I can’t fathom it.

Take a deep breath. Now another. Good boy. Calm down.

Calm? Good. Now read this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/naudiz/445372.html#cutid1). It's a nice little rant from one of my favorite ranters. Since she writes for a living she's quite good at ranting and making points. Plus I happen to usually agree with her. A similar decision on my part is also why I've been avoiding political topics of late. There's almost no point.

Raven

[DeV]

That's a really good article.

[HarmNone]

Preach on, sistah! Thanks for the link, Raven! :)

[Warriorbird]

Popular Mechanics from 2001.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282151.html

[xtc]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Popular Mechanics from 2001.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282151.html

Just an aside, did you see the date that article was published?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Popular Mechanics [/b]from 2001[/b].

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282151.html

Just an aside, did you see the date that article was published?

Did you read his post first?

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Popular Mechanics [/b]from 2001[/b].

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282151.html

Just an aside, did you see the date that article was published?

Did you read his post first?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHDASHFADHFAHAHAHHA

[Skirmisher]

I may be incorrect, but I think XTC was referring to the actual day of publishing rather than the month as it was 9/11/01.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I may be incorrect, but I think XTC was referring to the actual day of publishing rather than the month as it was 9/11/01.

We have a winner that was exactly my point. 9-11 World Trade Centre disaster.

[CrystalTears]

Sorry, didn't really notice that. Was too focused on reading the article.

[xtc]

I just found it ironic that the article was predicating disaster on the day we were experiencing it.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Popular Mechanics from 2001.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282151.html


“I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.”





Nobody anticipated breach of the levees? <--- FactCheck.org link (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=344)


Nobody anticipated breach of the levees?

In an interview on ABC’s “Good Morning America” on September 1, President Bush said:

Bush: I don’t think anyone anticipated breach of the levees …Now we’re having to deal with it, and will.

Bush is technically correct that a "breach" wasn't anticipated by the Corps, but that's doesn't mean the flooding wasn't forseen. It was. But the Corps thought it would happen differently, from water washing over the levees, rather than cutting wide breaks in them.

Greg Breerword, a deputy district engineer for project management with the Army Corps of Engineers, told the New York Times:

Breerword: We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped. We never did think they would actually be breached.

And while Bush is also technically correct that the Corps did not "anticipate" a breach – in the sense that they believed it was a likely event – at least some in the Corps thought a breach was a possibility worth examining.

According to the Times-Picayune, early in Bush's first term FEMA director Joe Allbaugh ordered a sophisticated computer simulation of what would happen if a category 5 storm hit New Orleans. Joseph Suhayda, an engineer at Louisana State University who worked on the project, described to the newspaper in 2002 what the simulation showed could happen:

Subhayda: Another scenario is that some part of the levee would fail. It's not something that's expected. But erosion occurs, and as levees broke, the break will get wider and wider. The water will flow through the city and stop only when it reaches the next higher thing. The most continuous barrier is the south levee, along the river. That's 25 feet high, so you'll see the water pile up on the river levee.

Whether or not a "breach" was "anticipated," the fact is that many individuals have been warning for decades about the threat of flooding that a hurricane could pose to a set below sea level and sandwiched between major waterways. A Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report from before September 11, 2001 detailed the three most likely catastrophic disasters that could happen in the United States: a terrorist attack in New York, a strong earthquake in San Francisco, and a hurricane strike in New Orleans. In 2002, New Orleans officials held the simulation of what would happen in a category 5 storm. Walter Maestri, the emergency coordinator of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans , recounted the outcome to PBS’ NOW With Bill Moyers:

Maestri, September 2002: Well, when the exercise was completed it was evidence that we were going to lose a lot of people. We changed the name of the [simulated] storm from Delaney to K-Y-A-G-B... kiss your ass goodbye... because anybody who was here as that category five storm came across... was gone.


[Edited on 9-9-2005 by Skirmisher]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
In 2002, New Orleans officials held the simulation of what would happen in a category 5 storm. Walter Maestri, the emergency coordinator of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans , recounted the outcome to PBS’ NOW With Bill Moyers:

Maestri, September 2002: Well, when the exercise was completed it was evidence that we were going to lose a lot of people. We changed the name of the [simulated] storm from Delaney to K-Y-A-G-B... kiss your ass goodbye... because anybody who was here as that category five storm came across... was gone.


And then there was FEMA's own 'Hurricane Pam (http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=13051)' simulation which was just a category 3. They can't possibly try to say they had no idea this cold be so bad.

Raven

[Skirmisher]

While I think that both the Mayor of NO and the Gov of Louisiana have done extremely poorly in this crisis, i must restate my problem with those that wish to place the bulk of the blame on them.

What resources where they supposed to respond to a disaster of this magnitude with?

No has or at least had a police force of about 1500 officers and the Louisiana state police only has about 1000 officers.

The largest cohesive unit of personel available to them would have been the Louisiana National guard which is missing something like 40% or more of its manpower to action overseas.

It is asking the impossible to ask local and State officials to be able to handle a disaster of this size and so the bulk of the response must be borne by the federal govt.

In summary, yes local and state officials did very poorly, but even if they had done every possible action in their powers correctly, their ability to impact on the aftermath of Katrina was i think minimal when compared to that of the federal govt who failed as well, just on a much much larger scale.

[Sean of the Thread]

There would have been alot less dead people in the aftermath if he fucking kicked people the fuck out and mobilized the school bus armada.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Xyelin
There would have been alot less dead people in the aftermath if he fucking kicked people the fuck out and mobilized the school bus armada.
Agreed. I can not fathom what he was thinking regarding that bus situation. If it turns out all that was reported about it was correct, i think there should be a real investigation as to the bringing of charges against him as that may have been able to save who knows how many lives.

[ElanthianSiren]

Excellent article Raven, even if it's a bloglike opinion piece. I found myself nodding quite a few times.

-M

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Bush: I don’t think anyone anticipated breach of the levees …Now we’re having to deal with it, and will.

Bush is technically correct that a "breach" wasn't anticipated by the Corps, but that's doesn't mean the flooding wasn't forseen.oaidfhoaidfhoaidfhoadifh

The guy (being human) has done like a million things wrong, now we're ripping on him for what he said that was right???

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
oaidfhoaidfhoaidfhoadifh

The guy (being human) has done like a million things wrong, now we're ripping on him for what he said that was right???

Before responding to this i feel I must ask.

Are you being serious?

[Back]

They never are. You can tell by the posts.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Backlash
Thats the problem with you clueless people. You are just too dense to see the facts. I suppose there is a purpose for people like you in this world, though I can’t fathom it.

Take a deep breath. Now another. Good boy. Calm down.

Calm? Good. Now read this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/naudiz/445372.html#cutid1). It's a nice little rant from one of my favorite ranters. Since she writes for a living she's quite good at ranting and making points. Plus I happen to usually agree with her. A similar decision on my part is also why I've been avoiding political topics of late. There's almost no point.

Raven

LOL.

The only author from there I read is this guy. He's brilliant.

Link to a REAL Live Journal author (http://www.livejournal.com/users/warclaidhm/ )

[Back]

I’d like to remark here that I was not bashing anyone on their politics... just their lack of observation.

Back on topic...

Yesterday Chertoff sent Brown packing as head of the relief effort. Today’s headlines now say Bush did it. ??? Its the shell game right before your very eyes.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
I’d like to remark here that I was not bashing anyone on their politics... just their lack of observation.

Back on topic...

Yesterday Chertoff sent Brown packing as head of the relief effort. Today’s headlines now say Bush did it. ??? Its the shell game right before your very eyes.

CHERTOFF IS REALLY BUSH'S PUPPET MASTER!

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Are you being serious? Bush said something that was correct, and someone felt the need to write an article pointing out how (though he was "technically" correct) what Bush was *thinking* was incorrect. Yes, I find that afouighad;oifhado;fih-worthy.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Bush said something that was correct, and someone felt the need to write an article pointing out how (though he was "technically" correct) what Bush was *thinking* was incorrect. Yes, I find that afouighad;oifhado;fih-worthy.

Excellent.

I just wished to be sure we were talking about the same thing.

Now, you are an intelligent person. The reports of all scenarios which have the port of New Orleans facing a category 5 hurricane have the city being flooded.

If the levee's breach the city ends up sitting under some eighteen feet of water.

If the storm surge simply overtops the levees and caries the gulf of mexico right on in as shown in the various scenarios formulated by his own FEMA, the city ends up sitting under some eighteen feet of water.

The end result is the same.

So knowing that the result is the same let us examine his statement.

He was either incredibly incompetent in being unaware that the federal governments own studies showed the city being flooded out OR he was lying.

I am stunned that you would engage in such petty word games when no matter what the city was still burried beneath all that water as ...was.....projected.

[4a6c1]

Isnt that like, the responsibility of local government...to prepare for those scenarios? If not, shouldnt it be?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
Isnt that like, the responsibility of local government...to prepare for those scenarios? If not, shouldnt it be?

NO IT IS GEORGE W BUSH'S RESPONSIBILITY, DUMBASS.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I am stunned that you would engage in such petty word games when no matter what the city was still burried beneath all that water as ...was.....projected. He didn't say "the city wasn't going to be flooded if the levees didn't break, and nobody anticipated the levees breaking, so this flooding stuff is a total surprise". He said that nobody anticipated the levees breaking. YES the water was going to get in ANYWAY, but the levees breaking means that pumping the water out from the broken-levee areas is pointless until the levees are FIXED, which takes time, money, skilled personnel, engineers, etc., hence the "Now we’re having to deal with it, and will." comment.

[Jazuela]

Now, you are an intelligent person. The reports of all scenarios which have the port of New Orleans facing a category 5 hurricane have the city being flooded.


All well and good, except it wasn't a category 5, and it wasn't a direct hit to New Orleans.

It's really beside the point though, since the levees were only built to withstand a category 3...and that, dead on. It was a 4, not dead on, so they clearly couldn't prepare for it *accurately* because the end result was unknown for that particular scenario.

On the OTHER hand (I have a few extra hands in my glove compartment)...

They knew that the levees could only withstand a cat3, and that New Orleans was ripe for destruction on anything worse. And they didn't prepare for anything worse.

On the OTHER OTHER hand - it didn't occur to them that anything worse -could- come..

On the other other other hand - they should've taken precautions anyway, just in case.

and so on, and so forth.

Fact is, they didn't know, and they didn't know that they should've known, and now they know. Too little, too late, but there it is, and it doesn't change anything that's happening *now.* They can only learn from it and make damned sure they do everything humanly possible to prevent it from happening again.

[ElanthianSiren]

edited because I read what Jihna said wrong. N/M

[Edited on Sun, September th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Skirmisher]

Actually Jaz, they should have been preparing for a Cat 5 hurricane as thats what it was until JUST a bit before it hit land.

And they should have been preparing for the flooding of New Orleans as it was also heading right for it until, again just before it hit land, it turned just a smidge.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Wow so as long as the war is going on, he's never allowed to take a vacation? I'm sure glad I don't work for you. :P

No he is not. When you decide to put the lives of our soldiers on the line, your number 1 priority should be to those soldiers and their family. While soldiers get a break, be it rarely and even more rare a return trip home, you do not take a vacation.

If Bush can't handle the stress of his job while he endangers the lives of our citizenry, he needs to resign and hand over the reigns of power to someone a bit more sincere.


Originally posted by CrystalTears
So Moore is allowed to make his own statements with no facts but no one else is. Nice.

Moore uses facts, just not to the end that everyone agrees with.

Without reading any further into the thread, 4 pages in a sitting has been enough for me, the ultimate blame for how things have been handled ultimately land upon the shoulders of the man who has the power to see that they were handled right.

With soldiers in Iraq and a force 5 hurricane about to make landfall ... vacation is not where you should be. Had this been his first term with an election in the balance, he wouldn't have. In fact he would have made sure the necessities were in place to move in the moment they were able to, much like he did for brother Jeb.

The facts that people don't want to address are as follows.

Brown was appointed by Bush. Brown was so terribly unqualified for the position, but for some reason Bush put him in one of the most active and crucial positions in the federal government. As a manager, if I place someone in a critical position who is not only unqualified but also incapable of performing the duties of that position, I am held accountable for the decision I made. Were I to make a decision in personnel on the scale of Bush appointing Brown, I would not only be out of a job ... but likely not to find work at this level in the future.

Bush doesn't have this fear as he has squeezed that rock dry.

Our agencies knew the potential force of this hurricane and also knew that they scrapped funding for upgrading the levies. The people left behind weren't victims of racism. Rather they were victims of discrimination based on social standing. The poor were left behind without a second thought.

It wasn't the immediate response we're used to seeing and you can't use the excuse of scale. Going through the normal motions on the same scale as we see in Florida and the southern east coast would have much. Instead our agencies sat around ass and head scratching while the managers and officers took part in press conferences. Senators and Congressmen gave thanks to their piers while the living were starving and drowning. Others were willing to just send in the dozers and leave New Orleans a submerged parking lot.

So no, Bush is not responsible for natural disasters, he is responsible for the response.

Katrina had less response than a force 1 hurricane. In this nation that is unacceptable.

[OreoElf]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

So Moore is allowed to make his own statements with no facts but no one else is. Nice.



It's ignorant to say he only persecutes the republicans... he totally bashed Clinton (a liberal) and not really about his sex life... my 2 cents... all politicians suck and for now I just vote for the lesser of evils...Whether I agree with the war or not... in a country where religion is supposed to be optional... I don't think we should hav e a religious zealot as president...

Pretty much everything we see on the news is propaganda at this point...

I also agree with Tsa'ah.

[Edited on 9-11-2005 by OreoElf]

[Skirmisher]

For anyone interested in a collected timeline of events, The New York Times has a timeline showing events from over the last two weeks or so for the various major figures and agencies as well as the meteorogical information.

NYTimes <----- Timeline link here. (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/2005_HURRICANEKATRINA_GRAPHIC/index_03.html)

Sorry, it does require registration but I could not clip and paste this as it changes depending on what day you are looking at.

So it's there for those who want to see it though.

[Artha]

Moore uses facts, just not to the end that everyone agrees with.
Unfortunately, he uses them in a fashion which makes them less than credible.

I'm sure at some point you've said the word I, the word hate and the word <naughty gay people term>. Not necessarily together, but I'm sure you've said them. If I were Michael Moore and you were going to be in one of my videos, you'd be hating gay people faster than you can say "suspiciously cut".

[Warriorbird]

:shrugs: The Republicans scored a ton of electoral points off of similar nonsense. They have no reason to complain.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
:shrugs: The Republicans scored a ton of electoral points off of similar nonsense. They have no reason to complain. Only if you believe the only reason people would vote for Bush is if they were tricked.

[Warriorbird]

It isn't the only reason. I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm not trying to make myself feel better about having voted the way I did.

Democrats do the same damn thing at times.

It's politics.

It's not played by simple moral rules.