Al Sharpton is on CRACK

[Gan]

I just saw an interview with Al Sharpton on a local station... and he says that racisim is why so many folks have died and why the reaction to the evacuees was 'delayed'.

Never mind that Lousiana was caught with its pants down in preparedness. No central command structure, no disaster plans were evident or practiced. The state guard was unprepared in responding.

Nothing like the hate mongers coming out from under their rocks for their camera time at the expense of the needy.

:flamed:

[Sylvan Dreams]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Never mind that Lousiana was caught with its pants down in preparedness. No central command structure, no disaster plans were evident or practiced. The state guard was unprepared in responding.


Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9175204/

WASHINGTON - Virtually everything that has happened in New Orleans since Hurricane Katrina struck was predicted by experts and in computer models, so emergency management specialists wonder why authorities were so unprepared.

Computer models developed at Louisiana State University and other institutions made detailed projections of what would happen if water flowed over the levees protecting the city or if they failed.

In July 2004, more than 40 federal, state, local and volunteer organizations practiced this very scenario in a five-day simulation code-named "Hurricane Pam", where they had to deal with an imaginary storm that destroyed over half a million buildings in New Orleans and forced the evacuation of a million residents.

[Gan]

You could not tell that it happened as evidenced by the past week.

:rolleyes:

[Parkbandit]

N.O. Government is and always has been a joke.

[Keller]

Same for Kanye West.

[HarmNone]

I can't understand how anyone could possibly believe that there's a race factor involved here. The hurricane didn't purposefully choose a place where the majority of the population is black. That's just where it happened to hit.

The color of a needlessly dying person is not an issue. I'm sure that most people, seeing the suffering of those impacted by this disaster, didn't even consider what color those people were. They're starving. They're dying. They're people...our people.

[Showal]

I think Al Sharpton meant that the rescuers and government officials are purposely delaying and slowing the process of rescuing people stranded because they are black. It's a completely legitimate argument considering ... actually, scratch that. It's a retarded argument.

Yes it's sad and unfortunate that most of the people left behind and didn't evacuate were the poor who just couldn't afford to leave. I am relating the poor to blacks here because almost every person I've seen on the news who was too poor and is stranded and on camera has been black. I really doubt the government and rescuer workers were like "We gotta save them! Just do it on your own time. We can take our sweet time, they're just blacks." I'm sure the thing that HAS delayed rescue work the most is the shots fired at rescue workers, the rapes, the carjacking, and the looting.

Originally posted by HarmNone
I can't understand how anyone could possibly believe that there's a race factor involved here. The hurricane didn't purposefully choose a place where the majority of the population is black. That's just where it happened to hit.

The color of a needlessly dying person is not an issue. I'm sure that most people, seeing the suffering of those impacted by this disaster, didn't even consider what color those people were. They're starving. They're dying. They're people...our people.
unless it is compared to the color of a needlessly dieing cat, then people here would save the cat first.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by HarmNone
I can't understand how anyone could possibly believe that there's a race factor involved here. The hurricane didn't purposefully choose a place where the majority of the population is black. That's just where it happened to hit.

The color of a needlessly dying person is not an issue. I'm sure that most people, seeing the suffering of those impacted by this disaster, didn't even consider what color those people were. They're starving. They're dying. They're people...our people.
unless it is compared to the color of a needlessly dieing cat, then people here would save the cat first.

Oddly enough, the only person who's mentioned cats in this thread is you, Dave. Fortunately, most of our posters have more sense...and more decency.

[Warriorbird]

:shrugs: Kanye West said it relative to slow response.

[Skirmisher]

I hold many many low opinions of our current president, but I find the charges of racism to be totally without merit.

If there was a huge problem in say Minn, and most of those hurt were white it would be just as much due to that being the majority of the population there.

And Kanye may make some nice music, but I certainly do not look to him for political information.

[Numbers]

Al Sharpton is the most racist American public figure in modern times.

It goes both ways.

[Ilvane]

So, do you think if this had happened in a rich white neighbordhood the response would have been faster?

I'm almost willing to bet it would be much faster.

-A

[Gan]

Originally posted by Ilvane
So, do you think if this had happened in a rich white neighbordhood the response would have been faster?

I'm almost willing to bet it would be much faster.

-A

If you believe that you're stupider than your previous posts make you out to be.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ilvane
So, do you think if this had happened in a rich white neighbordhood the response would have been faster?

I'm almost willing to bet it would be much faster.

-A

No, I don't.

If you really believe that I have to wonder why you would choose to continue to live in a country where its rescue teams will let its own citizens die because of race.

[Ilvane]

I'm sorry, but it is a factor, among other things.

-A

[Edited on 9-3-2005 by Ilvane]

[Hulkein]

In a less grave situation where life isn't on the line, I may agree. Let's say if a tractor spills paint and stains a poor neighborhood sidewalk the color orange. There may be a delay in cleaning that up as opposed to if it was spilled in an affluent neighborhood.

I don't feel that way, however, when it comes to the complete destruction of a city and large loss of life.

[Gan]

You're dead wrong... and until you can site specific instances or circumstances where folks were not rescued because of race then you're talking out of your ass.


Edited because I've had a margarita and have hence reflected on my response a little (like 20 seconds)...

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Ganalon]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
So, do you think if this had happened in a rich white neighbordhood the response would have been faster?

Thing is, it would never have happened in a rich white neighborhood for the simple reason that rich people would have gotten the hell out of there. Exactly like all the rich black people did in New Orleans.

A better question is if this had happened in a poor white neighborhood would the response have been faster?

No. It's FUBARed regardless of the color of their skin. As much as I despise Bush and consider him and his government incompetent fools, one thing I don't think they are is racist. Bad things happen to the poor of all colors because the ones who have the money can take precautions against bad things happening. Even such a simple thing as being able to afford to leave town.

Raven

[HarmNone]

I truly do not believe that race, per se, played a factor in what's happened here. I don't believe that precautions were ignored BECAUSE the majority of the population of New Orleans is black. Precautions were ignored because of head-in-the-sand stupidity, in my opinion.

Once the damage was done, whether the population of the damaged area was black, white, or green the end product would have been the same. As Raven said, the wealthy left when the poor could not and the stubborn would not.

Color isn't the problem. The factors that led to this disaster should have been addressed years ago. They weren't. In lieu of that, preparations should have been put in place as soon as this monster storm hit the Gulf of Mexico. It was made very clear that it was going to grow, and that it was going to grow A LOT. It did, and we have plenty of precedent to let us know that not everyone is going to evacuate an area when told to do so.

[Jazuela]

Y'know, all this talk about who could've stopped it, who could've prevented it, yada yada yada...

And on CNN, I see a whole lot - and I mean a WHOLE LOT of incredibly overweight people. Why didn't -THEY- prepare for this storm, like they insist the government should've done? If they had tightened up a bit, ate less crap, moved their bodies more, became fit and trim, they would've had no problem jogging out of town when the order to evacuate came.

Mind you, I am not casting blame on obese people. I'm just saying - why are people casting blame at all? Everyone took some part in this. EVERYONE. The feds, for not approving the funds to work on the disaster project a year prior. The people who were capable of leaving, but chose not to. The people who were so out of shape they weren't able to leave, when they could've gotten in shape a year beforehand. Everyone who could've used common sense and brought their shallow-bottomed boats to high ground before the storm hit, and didn't.

The mayor, for waiting until disaster struck to criticize the junkies who have looted the abandoned city. The cops, for not having the foresight to come up with alternative forms of communication in advance of the hurricane. The oil companies, who chose to place the bulk of the refineries in one location. The Netherlands, for not urging the United States to use their system as a model to emulate in New Orleans.

Me, for not going to the Governor's office when I was down in New Orleans 3 months ago and demanding that they do something about the fact that an entire city is below sea level and completely unprotected against a cat5 hurricane.

You see how far you can place blame? Hell we could even blame it on the cats and dogs, because their shit and rotting corpses in the wake of the aftermath added to the risk of disease and the utter filth and stench of the floodwaters.

And yes - you certainly can blame it on the plants, for not mutating properly in a below-sea-level topography so they wouldn't uproot and add to the mess.

I feel those who remained on purpose, when they had a chance -and- opportunity -and- the means to leave, should have to be held responsible for themselves. Everyone else - those who didn't have the opportunity, or the means, are victims. And the government can toss blame back and forth at each other til the NEXT doomsday and it won't change a damned thing.

EVERYONE contributed to the disaster, and NO ONE should bear the brunt of the blame.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Jazuela
blah blah blah

I got to the second paragraph and then skimmed. That is the most ridiculous and ill thought out argument I have heard on these boards.

I find it ironic to the max that you actually work/worked in fast food and you are talking about overweight folks.

If you were sitting at the convention center with clothes on that you had on for four days, no water, no food (not even a big delicious Whopper served up by Roberta), no medication, no direction, no NOTHING - then I guess you would not think that there should be any blame?

We could drop supplies into the jungles over Vietnam, but we can't drop water and MREs down to feed and hydrate the citizens of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?! Are you fucking kidding me?!

The fact is that our government's actions did not bear adequate results. There's no denying it. Now, let's hope that they continue to show up now that the entire world realizes how incredibly unorganized we are.

As for the rest, I don't think that it's race related. I think that it's just pure incompetence.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Hulkein
In a less grave situation where life isn't on the line, I may agree. Let's say if a tractor spills paint and stains a poor neighborhood sidewalk the color orange. There may be a delay in cleaning that up as opposed to if it was spilled in an affluent neighborhood.

I don't feel that way, however, when it comes to the complete destruction of a city and large loss of life.

I think I pretty much agree with you on this.

And Gan....take a breath man. I am also of the opinion that race was not a huge factor here but Ilvane isn't screaming and jumping up and down about it and nothing she said warranted your attacks.

Have a drink or something and relax a bit.

[Gan]

I guess what gets me the most is 2 of my most hated things are happening, and at the expense of the citizens of New Orleans.

1. A Politician is using this event as a media platform to push his/her own agenda and to get their fat face on TV.

2. Someone is using this event as a vehicle to distribute more hate, paranoia, and stupidity in the name of a race, culture, or creed. Specifically racial bias.

To even think that during a crisis as what is happening now, that someone will knowingly and deliberately NOT stop and render aid because of skin color is ludacris.

I can not wait for the day when all these old hate mongers (on both sides mind you) die off and leave this world to those who are more open minded and past all this hatred shit.

Al Sharpton - your 15 minutes is up, time to go be productive with your life instead of creating hate in order to justify your existance.

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Jazuela
blah blah blah

If you were sitting at the convention center with clothes on that you had on for four days
That made me giggle, ive gone two weeks in the same clothes before, due to lack of a option otherwise, as long as your smart about it all you do is itch a bit and smell bad.

no water, no food
This was a problem. but I remember there being a week that we knew the storm was headed that way. A smart person who thinks ahead would say to themselves," hey there is a hurricane coming, and gee i cant "Afford" to evacuate, I might want to go fill a few jugs of water up and go to the store and buy some canned food or something.

no medication
Gee there is a hurricane coming, I might want to make sure I have enough medication for a few days. OR, Gee there is a hurricane coming I might want to make sure that my old relative has enough medication since we wont be able to evacuate

no direction
This was a problem, the city should have handled the situation at the super dome a lot better, I am not a expert so i have no suggestions how, a few theories though, which would have involved better planning.


then I guess you would not think that there should be any blame?
The people put themselves in the situation just as those in charge did, though IMO the weight of the problem lies on the shoulders of the people. I being under the feeling that the government does not exist to take care of you.

We could drop supplies into the jungles over Vietnam, but we can't drop water and MREs down to feed and hydrate the citizens of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?! Are you fucking kidding me?!
The military does not operate quickly. Its hard to explain but it takes time to do everything, and with the amount of red tape and paperwork, the military takes 10x as much time as a civilian authority does. As was shown yesterday when the convoys arrived, when things get rolling the roll, strong and constant. What I feel a lot of the public doesn't understand is the fact that it all takes time to get going. The military is not designed to be uber fast, its a steam roller, slow but powerful. That is why there was not a visible instant response, though it was started it just took a bit of time to get underway.

[Back]

This whole time I never honestly ever thought the situation had anything to do with racism. Unfortunately, I believe it had everything to do with economics.

I am not impressed with federal response nor local government response. Blanco, the governor, I think needs to step down for failure. Don’t even get me started with FEMA and who is in power now.

The real heros are the American people.

Originally posted by Backlash
This whole time I never honestly ever thought the situation had anything to do with racism. Unfortunately, I believe it had everything to do with economics.

I am not impressed with federal response nor local government response. Blanco, the governor, I think needs to step down for failure. Don’t even get me started with FEMA and who is in power now.

The real heros are the American people.

Somebody said it on the news today, i forget who it was...

Something to the extent of... FEMA, is a great organization, but not organized enough, Only the military could have handled this situation, and as you see once they got going everything came under control. There had to be one person in charge.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

[Numbers]

http://media.putfile.com/Kanye79

Kanye is all like, "Blah blah blah"

Mike Meyers is all like, "WTF?!"

Chris Tucker is all like, "WTF!? Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth!?"

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Dave
This was a problem. but I remember there being a week that we knew the storm was headed that way. A smart person who thinks ahead would say to themselves," hey there is a hurricane coming, and gee i cant "Afford" to evacuate, I might want to go fill a few jugs of water up and go to the store and buy some canned food or something.

Do you really believe the stuff you say Dave? Do you really understand that the majority of those who ended up at the Convo center and superdome likely weren't capable of making the sorts of plans and do the sort of forward thinking that you are talking about. Regardless, how many maybe did buy water and food only to be chased to their rooftops by floodwater?

Not a single person has said that it's the responsibility of the government to think for these people. But to point fingers and say "Woulda Coulda Shoulda" is a bit naive to say the least. Did you see the number of elderly people there?

Those people went where they were told to go. They didn't have the means to leave on their own. Some stayed because they thought it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure there was a mix of all of the above.

This is the largest natural disaster in modern times to hit the US and our President doesn't bother to GO BACK IMMEDIATELY FROM VACATION TO THE WHITE HOUSE to demonstrate that he's in control. Even if it's symbolic, it matters.

So if you want to put the planning finger on the victims, maybe you might want to turn the planning finger back on those who actually had the capacity to make a difference. As you conveniently pointed out that we knew about this for "a week" why wasn't food and water there at the shelter spots waiting? I think you know the answer.

**Edited to shut up the nitpickers. Forgive me for NOT BEING STRAIGHT ON MY FACTS. Christ.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by TheRoseLady]

[Hulkein]

I thought Bush did cut his vacation short.

[Back]

5 years in office, 1 year spent on vacation.

[Gan]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
This is the largest natural disaster in modern times to hit the US and our President doesn't bother to cut his vacation short to demonstrate that he's in control. Even if it's symbolic, it matters.


Wow, you suck at presenting the facts.

Bush to return to Washington early
President cuts vacation short to monitor hurricane relief efforts

Tuesday, August 30, 2005; Posted: 1:08 p.m. EDT (17:08 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/30/bush.hurricane.ap/

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I thought Bush did cut his vacation short.

Yeah, by two days. What was it a four week vacation? He's the leader of the most powerful nation in the world. He should have been back in Washington the next day - even if it was just symbolic.

I'm not going to let this thread devolve into some Bush bullshit thread. The usual suspects are circling in their wagons. I think everyone can agree that the initial response has been less than stellar. I recall the last major situation like this, as 911, he was larger than life - he could have done the same here, imho.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Backlash
5 years in office, 1 year spent on vacation.

If he didn't do work on vacation, that stat would matter to me.

Unlike when you go on vacation, Bush isn't getting fucked up and stoned then passing out on a couch.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Hulkein
I thought Bush did cut his vacation short.

Yeah, by two days.

Well then don't say he didn't cut his vacation short, because he did.

You should keep your facts straight, at least.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ganalon

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
This is the largest natural disaster in modern times to hit the US and our President doesn't bother to cut his vacation short to demonstrate that he's in control. Even if it's symbolic, it matters.


Wow, you suck at presenting the facts.

Bush to return to Washington early
President cuts vacation short to monitor hurricane relief efforts

Tuesday, August 30, 2005; Posted: 1:08 p.m. EDT (17:08 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/30/bush.hurricane.ap/

Calm down Ganalon. It was my choice of words, I meant that he should have gone back immediately.

I corrected my original post to reflect that W did cut his 4 week vacation short by 2 days iin order to go back to the White House.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by TheRoseLady]

[Gan]

I am calm... I'm just tired of people posting BS, over exagerated rhetoric just because they hate Bush, Congress, or anyone else.

Stick with the facts, or qualify your statements with "in my opinion", thats all.

As for the regular folks starting to circle around this thread.... well, it is a political thread, and the usuall politik suspects are participating. I'm for all kinds of participation, even if I try to maintain some degree of accountability to what I say/post as being factual. :shrug:

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ganalon
I am calm... I'm just tired of people posting BS, over exagerated rhetoric just because they hate Bush, Congress, or anyone else.

Stick with the facts, or qualify your statements with "in my opinion", thats all.

As for the regular folks starting to circle around this thread.... well, it is a political thread, and the usuall politik suspects are participating. I'm for all kinds of participation, even if I try to maintain some degree of accountability to what I say/post as being factual. :shrug:

Yes, because of course I was trying to exaggerate something that was very easily proven to be a mistatement.

Now that we have established, without a doubt that W so selflessly cut short his vacation by 2 days- can we move on? I promise not to disparage him in that manner again.

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Dave
This was a problem. but I remember there being a week that we knew the storm was headed that way. A smart person who thinks ahead would say to themselves," hey there is a hurricane coming, and gee i cant "Afford" to evacuate, I might want to go fill a few jugs of water up and go to the store and buy some canned food or something.

Do you really believe the stuff you say Dave? Do you really understand that the majority of those who ended up at the Convo center and superdome likely weren't capable of making the sorts of plans and do the sort of forward thinking that you are talking about. Regardless, how many maybe did buy water and food only to be chased to their rooftops by floodwater?
So what are you saying, all these people are too stupid to think ahead?


Not a single person has said that it's the responsibility of the government to think for these people. But to point fingers and say "Woulda Coulda Shoulda" is a bit naive to say the least. Did you see the number of elderly people there?
Woulda coulda shoulda, lets dissect this. How many woulda, coulda shoulda's have been said about the response, and preparing for it. If people expect the government to I sure as hell am going to expect the people who are in the line of fire to.

As for the elderly, they are living on their own and capable of such, no excuse.


Those people went where they were told to go. They didn't have the means to leave on their own. Some stayed because they thought it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm sure there was a mix of all of the above.

They were also TOLD to bring food and water to sustain themselves.

This is the largest natural disaster in modern times to hit the US and our President doesn't bother to cut his vacation short to demonstrate that he's in control. Even if it's symbolic, it matters.
:yawn:
Point fingers.


So if you want to put the planning finger on the victims, maybe you might want to turn the planning finger back on those who actually had the capacity to make a difference.
Those who had the most capacity to make a difference were the people themselves.

As you conveniently pointed out that we knew about this for "a week" why wasn't food and water there at the shelter spots waiting? I think you know the answer.
Because Bush hates black people.

Because they didn't know where the storm was going to land, and the money wasn't there. Because the Louisiana government dropped the ball. Because FEMA didn't do its job. Because nobody *knew* the levies would *break*.
Because the dumb asses didn't listen to the warnings and get the fuck out of an AREA BELOW SEA LEVEL WHEN A HURRICANE WAS COMING.

Victims, Some of them are, most of them are not. You said it yourself though, they were to dumb to think ahead :smrik:

That and bush hates black people.
:shrug:

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Backlash
5 years in office, 1 year spent on vacation.

If he didn't do work on vacation, that stat would matter to me.

Unlike when you go on vacation, Bush isn't getting fucked up and stoned then passing out on a couch.

I’m just stating a fact. No need to get all defensive. He may not get all fucked up and pass out on a couch now, but we all know he used to.

So, you know, save your bullshit for people who care.

[Hulkein]

He returned to Washington on Wednesday, I assume he began readying himself to leave on Tuesday.

What day did the hurricane make landfall?

I guess he could've cut short his vacation 14 days ago for the depression that was forming around the Equator FOR TEH SYMBOLIC reasons.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Backlash

I’m just stating a fact. No need to get all defensive. He may not get all fucked up and pass out on a couch now, but we all know he used to.

So, you know, save your bullshit for people who care.

It's not defensive, I'm just pointing out that his vacation and your vacations aren't the same.

I'd probably gtfo of shitty ass Washington DC as much as possible too.

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein
He returned to Washington on Wednesday, I assume he began readying himself to leave on Tuesday.

What day did the hurricane make landfall?

I guess he could've cut short his vacation 14 days ago for the depression that was forming around the Equator FOR TEH SYMBOLIC reasons.

ok Hulk, justify a vacation when our boys in Iraq don’t get any, and are dying every day. Let alone this disaster. No other president has taken this much vacation and its shameful because we are supposedly at war. Show me you rationalization for that.

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Backlash

I’m just stating a fact. No need to get all defensive. He may not get all fucked up and pass out on a couch now, but we all know he used to.

So, you know, save your bullshit for people who care.

It's not defensive, I'm just pointing out that his vacation and your vacations aren't the same.

I'd probably gtfo of shitty ass Washington DC as much as possible too.

Preach the hate man. Its what you do best.

[Gan]

Al Sharpton is still on crack for thinking that the rescue efforts were racially biased and or motivated.

[Hulkein]

I get paid for it.

I'm a hate-merchant, you fucking asshole.

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I get paid for it.

I'm a hate-merchant, you fucking asshole.

Proof that capitalism is evil.

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Hulkein
He returned to Washington on Wednesday, I assume he began readying himself to leave on Tuesday.

What day did the hurricane make landfall?

I guess he could've cut short his vacation 14 days ago for the depression that was forming around the Equator FOR TEH SYMBOLIC reasons.

ok Hulk, justify a vacation when our boys in Iraq don’t get any, and are dying every day. Let alone this disaster. No other president has taken this much vacation and its shameful because we are supposedly at war. Show me you rationalization for that.

Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Hulkein
He returned to Washington on Wednesday, I assume he began readying himself to leave on Tuesday.

What day did the hurricane make landfall?

I guess he could've cut short his vacation 14 days ago for the depression that was forming around the Equator FOR TEH SYMBOLIC reasons.

Hulk, are you incapable of understanding the value in doing something for a symbolic reason? Anyone with half a brain understands that he wasn't out riding his horses on the range on Monday without a care in the world but was likely involved in all sorts of briefings and such. Heading back to Washington asap would have spoken volumes, imho. If you don't understand the gist of what I'm saying, just say so.

And it made landfall Monday morning.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Hulkein
I get paid for it.

I'm a hate-merchant, you fucking asshole.

Proof that capitalism is evil.

Heh, in all seriousness though, I wasn't trying to be overly insulting.

I get drunk on vacation too, I think a lot of us do. It's just not accurate to label it 'vacation' when it's really just doing work in a different location.

DC is still shitty, though.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Hulkein]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Al Sharpton is still on crack for thinking that the rescue efforts were racially biased and or motivated.

I agree.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Hulk, are you incapable of understanding the value in doing something for a symbolic reason? Anyone with half a brain understands that he wasn't out riding his horses on the range on Monday without a care in the world but was likely involved in all sorts of briefings and such. Heading back to Washington asap would have spoken volumes, imho. If you don't understand the gist of what I'm saying, just say so.

And it made landfall Monday morning.

I understand the symbolic reasons perfectly.

He DID cut short his vacation, despite what you originally claimed.

If it made landfall Monday, and the article said he decided to leave Tuesday, what is the major problem here?

Again, for symbolic reasons, I'm sure it could've been done seven days ago, but the relief effort didn't even begin until when, Wednesday?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Hulkein]

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave
Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

I dunno Dave. Thats your call. If I were president and I was at war I would be on the front lines. Then, after all my troops were safe, I’d be drinking until I passed out. And they would too.

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
And it made landfall Monday morning.
When did the flooding occur?

Tuesday. :)

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave
Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

I dunno Dave. Thats your call. If I were president and I was at war I would be on the front lines. Then, after all my troops were safe, I’d be drinking until I passed out. And they would too.

You would be on the front lines...
Puhleefuckingeeezzzze.

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein
DC is still shitty, though.

Now I get to say “fuck you” cause DC rocks. Don’t be so skurd little cry baby.

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave
Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

I dunno Dave. Thats your call. If I were president and I was at war I would be on the front lines. Then, after all my troops were safe, I’d be drinking until I passed out. And they would too.

You would be on the front lines...
Puhleefuckingeeezzzze.

I guess thats where you and I differ.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Hulkein
If it made landfall Monday, and the article said he decided to leave Tuesday, what is the major problem here?

Again, for symbolic reasons, I'm sure it could've been done seven days ago, but the relief effort didn't even begin until when, Wednesday?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Hulkein]

I guess you don't understand the benefit of a symbolic return, otherwise you wouldn't be asking why it mattered if it Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday.

This is pointless to continue to discuss. Consider this my last comment on "vacationgate".

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave
Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

I dunno Dave. Thats your call. If I were president and I was at war I would be on the front lines. Then, after all my troops were safe, I’d be drinking until I passed out. And they would too.

You would be on the front lines...
Puhleefuckingeeezzzze.

I guess thats where you and I differ.

What, that i can spot bullshit and something that is completely retarded and impractical when i see it. And you spout bullshit and things completely unpractical that I can see?
That's about the only difference the above post shows.

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave
Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

I dunno Dave. Thats your call. If I were president and I was at war I would be on the front lines. Then, after all my troops were safe, I’d be drinking until I passed out. And they would too.

You would be on the front lines...
Puhleefuckingeeezzzze.

I guess thats where you and I differ.

What, that i can spot bullshit and something that is completely retarded and impractical when i see it. And you spout bullshit and things completely unpractical that I can see?
That's about the only difference the above post shows.

If I were, I would be. I’m not, obviously. You just have to take my word on that. Bullshit it may be because I’m not, and I would not ever want to be... but if I had to? I wouldn’t be on vacation while my people died.

[Celephais]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave
Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

I dunno Dave. Thats your call. If I were president and I was at war I would be on the front lines. Then, after all my troops were safe, I’d be drinking until I passed out. And they would too.

You would be on the front lines...
Puhleefuckingeeezzzze.

I guess thats where you and I differ.

What, that i can spot bullshit and something that is completely retarded and impractical when i see it. And you spout bullshit and things completely unpractical that I can see?
That's about the only difference the above post shows.

If I were, I would be. I’m not, obviously. You just have to take my word on that. Bullshit it may be because I’m not, and I would not ever want to be... but if I had to? I wouldn’t be on vacation while my people died.

ooOOoo look at the pretty quotelines. (and you thought big sigs were unnecessarly long)

Originally posted by Celephais

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave
Facts backlash.
Should we use rangerd1 as an example?

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

I dunno Dave. Thats your call. If I were president and I was at war I would be on the front lines. Then, after all my troops were safe, I’d be drinking until I passed out. And they would too.

You would be on the front lines...
Puhleefuckingeeezzzze.

I guess thats where you and I differ.

What, that i can spot bullshit and something that is completely retarded and impractical when i see it. And you spout bullshit and things completely unpractical that I can see?
That's about the only difference the above post shows.

If I were, I would be. I’m not, obviously. You just have to take my word on that. Bullshit it may be because I’m not, and I would not ever want to be... but if I had to? I wouldn’t be on vacation while my people died.

ooOOoo look at the pretty quotelines. (and you thought big sigs were unnecessarly long)
You have your limes, I have my pretty quote lines... dont insult my art kthanx

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Hulkein
DC is still shitty, though.

Now I get to say “fuck you” cause DC rocks. Don’t be so skurd little cry baby.

You seem to be surviving OK. That takes all the fear out of the place.

I have been there a few times visiting people at Georgetown.

[Back]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Hulkein
DC is still shitty, though.

Now I get to say “fuck you” cause DC rocks. Don’t be so skurd little cry baby.

You seem to be surviving OK. That takes all the fear out of the place.

I have been there a few times visiting people at Georgetown.

Well let me know next time and I got your beer.

[Hulkein]

Heh, thanks.

I haven't been there in the past year or so I guess, but might be heading there sometime this year.

[Back]

Better yet, come to Buffalo Billiards this next Tuesday, make a donation, and mingle. :)

DC Red Cross Fund Raiser For Victims of Katrina (http://www.zendada.com/event/poolourresources.html)

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Backlash]

[Ilvane]

My god..seriously..Ganalon..

Did you know Bush and his administration recommended taking the funding for the fixing of the levies that would have stopped the flooding that destroyed a bunch of homes and businesses?

Okay, now stop getting all high and mighty.

-A

Hey Ilvane did you see...

[/quote]
"The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday that a lack of funding for hurricane-protection projects around New Orleans did not contribute to the disastrous flooding that followed Hurricane Katrina.
In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave way--inundating much of the city--were completed and in good condition before the hurricane.

However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and couldn't handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, which was a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made decades ago based on a cost-benefit analysis.

"I don't see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case," said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. "Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place."

Strock also denied that escalating costs from the war in Iraq contributed to reductions in funding for hurricane projects in Louisiana, as some critics have suggested. Records show that corps funding for the Louisiana projects has generally decreased in recent years.

Several critics, including a former head of the Corps of Engineers, suggested in a Tribune story Thursday that the flooding in New Orleans could have been less severe had the federal government fully funded projects to improve the levees and drainage in the city.

Congress in 1999 authorized the corps to conduct a $12 million study to determine how much it would cost to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane, but the study isn't scheduled to get under way until 2006. It was not clear why the study has taken so long to begin, though Congress has only provided in the range of $100,000 or $200,000 a year so far." -- The Chicago Tribune
[/quote]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
Hey Ilvane did you see...



Several critics, including a former head of the Corps of Engineers, suggested in a Tribune story Thursday that the flooding in New Orleans could have been less severe had the federal government fully funded projects to improve the levees and drainage in the city.

[/quote] [/quote]

I guess not all agree with your assessment and seeing as how this is the same goverment that said they didnt know until thursday that people were outside the convention center they arent really high on the "Lets believe everything they say implicitly!" list.

"I don't see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case," said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. "Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place."

Wanna go quote for quote from the article? I am pretty sure id win.

[Skirmisher]

It's an article you posted, don't get irritated because the same article had an opposite opinion.

If you don't like the article, talk to the person who posted it.

Not irritated at all. The just of the article basically gives a STFU to all these people who say it could have been prevented. Like Ilvane.

It is obvious to anyone that things could have been better. But it seems the people who know say it was going to be bad no matter what

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

[Sean]

I'm not sure that it's a STFU to anyone or that the two opinions are contrary to be honest. It's one guys opinion saying that flooding probably still would have occured, and another guy saying if it had been completed it wouldn't have been as bad in his opinion... but you know what, even though they are opinions by people educated in the field they are still just speculation because the projected wasn't completed no matter the reason. And speculating what may or may not have happened in this instance in some alternate scenario really doesn't do anything to help the people who have been effected and the people who continue to be effected.. and that is my opinion.

PS: I guess I should also throw in that I don't think any of the rescue delays were race related but I also can't figure out why anyone still listens to jackasses like Al Sharpton.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Tijay]

[Gan]

word...

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
Not irritated at all. The just of the article basically gives a STFU to all these people who say it could have been prevented. Like Ilvane.

It is obvious to anyone that things could have been better. But it seems the people who know say it was going to be bad no matter what

I guess it's possible to come to that conclusion if you discount the fact that other experts were of the opposite opinion and were quoted in the same article.

[ElanthianSiren]

And if you discount the fact that the funding was granted in 1999 and says "in recent years" which would make the funding cuts during this Adminstration (both executive and legislative). Then you could look at the fact that Congress has provided 100k - 200k of 12 million since 1999.

Then, you could also look at your sources and claim that the man out of the military has nothing to lose from giving the first assessment, while the man still in the military potentially could lose a great deal if this administration were portrayed in an ill light. I'm going to believe the person who has nothing to lose.

Strock also contradicts himself by saying "had the project been fully complete..." except that, as was already noted by others in your article, the project was slated to build for category 5s since 1999. The only way he could be NOT backtracking is if there are two projects going on simultaneously, which seems unlikely due to the trickle of funding. This indicates one portion of his statement is a lie -- either they were planning to and have been building for a cat 5 since 1999 or they were not and could not build for a cat 5 due to funding constraints.

Then you could also cite the fact that it was not simply the levees that failed but the pump systems.

In conclusion, I'd find it interesting to know when that 2006 start date was determined.


-M

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
And if you discount the fact that the funding was granted in 1999 and says "in recent years" which would make the funding cuts during this Adminstration (both executive and legislative). Then you could look at the fact that Congress has provided 100k - 200k of 12 million since 1999.

Then, you could also look at your sources and claim that the man out of the military has nothing to lose from giving the first assessment, while the man still in the military potentially could lose a great deal if this administration were portrayed in an ill light. I'm going to believe the person who has nothing to lose.

Strock also contradicts himself by saying "had the project been fully complete..." except that, as was already noted by others in your article, the project was slated to build for category 5s since 1999. The only way he could be NOT backtracking is if there are two projects going on simultaneously, which seems unlikely due to the trickle of funding. This indicates one portion of his statement is a lie -- either they were planning to and have been building for a cat 5 since 1999 or they were not and could not build for a cat 5 due to funding constraints.

Then you could also cite the fact that it was not simply the levees that failed but the pump systems.

In conclusion, I'd find it interesting to know when that 2006 start date was determined.


-M
The pump system is not the responsibility of the ACE, it is the responsibility of a local political office. It is a political position to keep the pumps running. Those local politico's are the ones who failed the people in that situation.

1999, was Clinton not bush.

As to his comments, you're digging and that's obvious. The project was started by congress in 1999, but it is not slated to start , by congress until 2006. "If the project were fully complete" relates to that. That choise would be up to congress not the president.

It has started to look more and more to me to be the local governments fault. This idiot of a mayor who thought that telling people to evacuate, or go to the superdome and acting like his job was done after that, not having a effective emergency plan, and stranding those people and the fucked up backwards political system the N.O. is where the blame is stating to appear in my eyes.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

[Warriorbird]

A friend of mine's father was involved in cost/benefit work in 1999 and 2002. He didn't agree with either conclusion.

The IEM 90 million is also really interesting in this context.

As I said a couple other places I don't blame Bush (or Clinton) but Congress.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Warriorbird]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
A friend of mine's father was involved in cost/benefit work in 1999 and 2002. He didn't agree with either conclusion.

The IEM 90 million is also really interesting in this context.

As I said a couple other places I don't blame Bush (or Clinton) but Congress.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Warriorbird]
Just for my knowledge IEM is an acronym for what?

[Warriorbird]

Innovative Emergency Management.

http://www.ieminc.com/Whats_New/Press_Releases/pressrelease060304_Catastrophic.htm

[ElanthianSiren]

That was the beauty of it. I did not have to dig.

I simply fact checked what the man said against the figures, dates, and opinions that he gave. You can't start a project in 1999 and also start the same project in 2006. It's impossible, unless it is ongoing, in which case... he's mistaken in his assertion that the levees would never have survived, (as they would have been cat 5 levees instead of cat 3s). What that means is we're back at - "Why wasn't the funding there for the corps to do their job"?

It is also the federal government's responsibility, especially after 911, to provide funding for disasters and potential disasters. One huge aspect of this disaster is the catastrophic failure of those pumps -- that includes the failure to their maintainence and housing.

-M

[DeV]

Originally posted by Backlash
This whole time I never honestly ever thought the situation had anything to do with racism. Unfortunately, I believe it had everything to do with economics.

I am not impressed with federal response nor local government response. Blanco, the governor, I think needs to step down for failure. Don’t even get me started with FEMA and who is in power now.

The real heros are the American people. I completly agree.

And what Tijay said. LOL, and people still listen to this clown. He's right up there on the opposite end with Jesse Jackson. Give it a rest.

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
That was the beauty of it. I did not have to dig.

I simply fact checked what the man said against the figures, dates, and opinions that he gave. You can't start a project in 1999 and also start the same project in 2006. It's impossible, unless it is ongoing, in which case... he's mistaken in his assertion that the levees would never have survived, (as they would have been cat 5 levees instead of cat 3s). What that means is we're back at - "Why wasn't the funding there for the corps to do their job"?

not really, when congress passes a project they are able to decide when it starts as well, and when the funding will be recieved. You're digging, and its unattractive :).

It is also the federal government's responsibility, especially after 911, to provide funding for disasters and potential disasters. One huge aspect of this disaster is the catastrophic failure of those pumps -- that includes the failure to their maintainence and housing.

no, it was not in this case, local laws regulate the pumping stations, and a local political office, which makes it NOT the federal governments fault for just that reason.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
You're digging, and its unattractive :).
False. At least she is obtaining the information prior to posting. She's actually saving you the trouble and in the process bringing additional weight and substance to her argument.

[Skirmisher]

While a part of me appreciates the Mayor's being real in expressing his outrage at the lack of response, i also find his lack of discipline and leadership a failure in a time when his city needed someone to step up.

I thought Giuliani was an awful mayor overall, but when the towers were attacked he showed his ability to be one of the best crisis managers i've seen.

Perhaps its similar to the difference of a good wartime leader and a good peacetime leader.

Once in a while you may find one that can do both jobs equally well, but the requirements are so different that I think that is a rare thing.

[Gan]

I'm reading Guilliani's book now... if the mayor of NO would have done half, HALF, the things that Guilliani did prior to 9/11 then a lot of the confusion, waiting, and possibly needless deaths resulting in delayed care could have beeen prevented.

I think that NO should hire Guilliani as a consultant when they re-establish their managerial infrastructure.

[Back]

Everyone is getting torn news ones this morning on all the Sunday talk shows. Meet the Press, Face the Nation, McLaughlin Group...

On McLaughlin Group someone said even Somalia called offering aid.


Even Pat Buchanan is criticizing the administrations slow response.

Op-eds all across the country are slamming the administration. HARD

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Backlash]

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Backlash]

[Ilvane]

But of course, nothing is wrong..and they are doing a great job...god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country.

Angela

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
But of course, nothing is wrong..and they are doing a great job...god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country.

Angela

But of course, everything is wrong... and they are doing a horrible job.. god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Then, you could also look at your sources and claim that the man out of the military has nothing to lose from giving the first assessment, while the man still in the military potentially could lose a great deal if this administration were portrayed in an ill light. I'm going to believe the person who has nothing to lose. A person who has nothing to lose has no inclination to speak the truth. He or she can't stand to lose anything from lying either. And of course, there's no chance the person who has nothing to lose also happens to have an axe to grind, right? I would say that like most speculative predictions, there's backing for both their positions.

Wasn't it you who posted the article where the guy made reference to Katrina being equivalent to the force of a 45 megaton nuclear warhead being dropped every minute?
It is also the federal government's responsibility, especially after 911, to provide funding for disasters and potential disasters.It's ridiculously impossible to provide funding for all potential disasters, and it's asinine to even suggest such a thing.
Originally posted by Ilvane
But of course, nothing is wrong..and they are doing a great job...god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country. No one's said you aren't pro-America. That said, being pro-America doesn't excuse rabid allegations with no basis in reality (e.g. BUSH took the money away and that's why so many people died, BUSH didn't do anything about the storm, etc.).

[HarmNone]

There's plenty of blame to go around, and more than enough heads on which to place it. No one person is responsible for what's happened, in my opinion.

[Sean]

How did we come to the conclusion that because he/she is no longer the head of the organization that he/she has nothing to lose?

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

It is also the federal government's responsibility, especially after 911, to provide funding for disasters and potential disasters.It's ridiculously impossible to provide funding for all potential disasters, and it's asinine to even suggest such a thing.

I don’t think she was taking it to the extreme that you are. While your comment has some merit in truth, I find it incredibly divisive and unusually callous coming from you.

[Gan]

I just found an interesting link, going to take some time to read through it, but I'll post it for others to look while I'm reading it.

City of New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Plan (http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26)

US Army Corp Engineers: St. Tamminy Parish Flood Control Project (http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pd/projectsList/home.asp?projectID=104&directoryFilePath=ProjectDa ta%5C)



Here are a few first run questions I have already, as echoed by others on various sites.

Who didn't call for mandatory evacuation until instructed by President Bush?

Who had the power to call out the National Guard and waited too long?

Who had the power to ask for martial law?

Who didn't use the school busses as outlined in the emergency plans?

Who left the unused school busses to be uselessly flooded?

Who didn't start the 72-hour evacuation plan until over 30 precious hours of it were lost?

Edited: Link fixed. :(



[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Ganalon]

[Back]

The link isn’t working. But my first guess is the Governor.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
While your comment has some merit in truth, I find it incredibly divisive and unusually callous coming from you. I didn't mean it to be, and don't see how it is, but I apologize.

[Showal]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Dave
That and bush hates black people.
:shrug:

It's africa. He's mad at the black people in NO because countries in Africa supplied uranium to terrorists. He's actually helping the war on terrorism.


Originally posted by Backlash
[quote]Originally posted by Latrinsorm
[quote]It is also the federal government's responsibility, especially after 911, to provide funding for disasters and potential disasters.It's ridiculously impossible to provide funding for all potential disasters, and it's asinine to even suggest such a thing.

I don’t think she was taking it to the extreme that you are. While your comment has some merit in truth, I find it incredibly divisive and unusually callous coming from you.

I think it's rather foolish to think that NO was of absolute priority. There are other potential disasters that could happen at any time. Had one of the tsunamis happened that had been prepared for since "the" tsunami struck and the gov't was working on building the levees for NO, people would have been wondering why the fuck all the attention was being given to NO when there were other disasters to prepare for, especially considering NO already had levees to prepare for a cat3 storm. It's easy, in hindsight, to say that obviously the gov't should have been more prepared in NO. It should have, no doubt, but you can't be prepared for everything at every time.

Now I generally stay away from political debates on this forum because it gets so vaguely accusational that after a point it becomes just worthless chatter, but accusing the government of being racist and that's why the efforts were minimal? There were rich white people that had houses in NO that needed protection, they lost their shit too. There are white people in NO, I'd venture as far as to say that a number stayed out of stubborness or out of stupidity equal to the blacks who stayed's stupidity. Why wasn't Bush there to protect my ex girlfriend's apartment and her possesions? Why wasn't Bush there to help a few of my college friend's families and their possesions? I guess it's because he hates italians and whites and me.

Blame can be passed around all day, and it will be. When something goes wrong, we want someone to blame - it's natural. Shit happens, and I'm not trying to lessen the disaster. The biggest thing now is not to backtrack and concentrate on who to blame but to solve the problem that has happened. The disaster in NO could have been prevented. As I said before, if a disaster happens and we look hard enough, we will always be able to find poor planning ... but sometimes the money and time and effort is not there to properly plan and fund everything to be done correctly.

Backlash, I quoted you, but this wasn't an attack on you. It's a comment on the thread.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Showal]

[Apotheosis]

Vote Showal for President in '08.

:2beers:

[Back]

Originally posted by Showal
Backlash, I quoted you, but this wasn't an attack on you. It's a comment on the thread.

I don’t think its right to blame the victims of this tragedy, like FOX is doing, more than the people who are PAID to take care of these things.

[Gan]

We must be watching different Fox reports... I've seen nothing from CNN or Fox blaming the residents other than mentioning some chose to stay rather than evacuate.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Showal
Backlash, I quoted you, but this wasn't an attack on you. It's a comment on the thread.

I don’t think its right to blame the victims of this tragedy, like FOX is doing, more than the people who are PAID to take care of these things.

I blame some of the victims of this tragedy for their behavior after the flood. As one of the ones said "If it wuz wrong, I sure da police would stop us, right? Well dey ain' stoppin us."

I feel bad for the majority of the population down there.. and for the ones that took advantage of this tragedy.. I say put a bullet through their foreheads and do society a huge favor.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

But of course, everything is wrong... and they are doing a horrible job.. god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country.

Do you honestly think that the first days of the response were adequate? Did they produce results?

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ganalon
I just found an interesting link, going to take some time to read through it, but I'll post it for others to look while I'm reading it.

City of New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Plan (http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26)

US Army Corp Engineers: St. Tamminy Parish Flood Control Project (http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pd/projectsList/home.asp?projectID=104&directoryFilePath=ProjectDa ta%5C)


How interesting that the webservers for the City of New Orleans are up and functional. I fully realize that you can host them anywhere in the world, but your first thought is that they would be in the city somewhere in a data center. A city with no electricity.

I thought they did pretty well with the evacuations until the levees broke and then everything spiraled downward from there.

I'm sure we'll see a number of post-mortems in the months to come about where things broke down to the point that it did.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by TheRoseLady]

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Showal
Backlash, I quoted you, but this wasn't an attack on you. It's a comment on the thread.

I don’t think its right to blame the victims of this tragedy, like FOX is doing, more than the people who are PAID to take care of these things.

I blame some of the victims of this tragedy for their behavior after the flood. As one of the ones said "If it wuz wrong, I sure da police would stop us, right? Well dey ain' stoppin us."

I feel bad for the majority of the population down there.. and for the ones that took advantage of this tragedy.. I say put a bullet through their foreheads and do society a huge favor.

While I am not a proponent for outright killing people... yeah, maybe a fraction of 1% deserved that.

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Ganalon
I just found an interesting link, going to take some time to read through it, but I'll post it for others to look while I'm reading it.

City of New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Plan (http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26)

US Army Corp Engineers: St. Tamminy Parish Flood Control Project (http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pd/projectsList/home.asp?projectID=104&directoryFilePath=ProjectDa ta%5C)


How interesting that the webservers for the City of New Orleans are up and functional. I fully realize that you can host them anywhere in the world, but your first thought is that they would be in the city somewhere in a data center. A city with no electricity.

I thought they did pretty well with the evacuations until the levees broke and then everything spiraled downward from there.

I'm sure we'll see a number of post-mortems in the months to come about where things broke down to the point that it did.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by TheRoseLady]

yeah saying get out and run for the hills was a great plan.

HAHA Rice just gave a fuck you to this dipshit.

If she didnt have that gap, id do her. :) :flees:

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave
HAHA Rice just gave a fuck you to this dipshit.

If she didnt have that gap, id do her. :) :flees:

Well, thats not surprising considering how much Bush dick you suck.

He is a good man and a great president afterall, i like to stick with the winning side.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Dave
HAHA Rice just gave a fuck you to this dipshit.

If she didnt have that gap, id do her. :) :flees:

Well, thats not surprising considering how much Bush dick you suck.

Thats pretty tasteless Backlash. Somehow, somwhere I expected more from you than that.

Guess I'll have to live with reality and disappointment eh?

[Back]

Eh, I was bored and wanted to shake things up a bit.

I wouldn’t touch her with a ten foot pole even if she begged.

even without the gap in her teeth?

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave
He is a good man and a great president afterall, i like to stick with the winning side.

Great president? Maybe if you own an oil company. Otherwise hes an outright embarrassment.

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave
even without the gap in her teeth?

Well, she does have nice hips.

Damn, i was all ready to go
OMG JOO R RA3I5T1111

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Dave


yeah saying get out and run for the hills was a great plan. [/quote]

Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.

Do you really read the bullshit you post?

Dave, some day you'll actually post something on these boards that will be spot on and something that people should hear but you will be completely ignored because you will have wasted every legitimate opportunity with unbelievable statements, arguing over micro points and generally demonstrating that you are incapable of carrying on a reasonable conversation that doesn't result in serious headbanging and teeth gnashing by those who bother to TRY and engage in a converstaion with you.

How can one person be so thick, all the time? I hope that it's your lack of wordly experience that causes you to behave in such a manner and that age will assist you.

I seriously need a graphic that says, something like "Just say no to Dave."

[Gan]

I've heard too many versions of what actually went down now to know the exact timelines of when the warnings were given, when the first efforts were made by local authorities, then state authorities, then the feds.

If anyone has a timeline from a reputable source I'd like to see it so I can review.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit

But of course, everything is wrong... and they are doing a horrible job.. god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country.

Do you honestly think that the first days of the response were adequate? Did they produce results?

I put the blame squarely on the state and local governments. While the federal government does have a huge role in the reconstruction.. it is the local government's responsibility to prepare and have a comprehensive plan that they are to follow in case of such emergencies. They had a plan.. they just didn't follow much of it.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit

But of course, everything is wrong... and they are doing a horrible job.. god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country.

Do you honestly think that the first days of the response were adequate? Did they produce results?

I put the blame squarely on the state and local governments. While the federal government does have a huge role in the reconstruction.. it is the local government's responsibility to prepare and have a comprehensive plan that they are to follow in case of such emergencies. They had a plan.. they just didn't follow much of it.

Yeah man, the federal government is never responsible for anything. Don’t you know that by now?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

[HarmNone]

Heh. It doesn't take long for people to prove themselves, whether in an emergency situation like this horror in New Orleans, or on a message board discussing that horror, does it? Some of the comments I'm seeing here are absolutely appalling. :no:

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

Anybody who tries to blame any one person for this tragedy is simply not thinking rationally. There is no way that one person CAN be blamed, or even one organization.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Anybody who tries to blame any one person for this tragedy is simply not thinking rationally. There is no way that one person CAN be blamed, or even one organization.

You ARE the voice of reason.

:)

[HarmNone]

What I been tellin' ya, youngun? :D

[Back]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

Anybody who tries to blame any one person for this tragedy is simply not thinking rationally. There is no way that one person CAN be blamed, or even one organization.

Thats an incredibly apathetic statement and not constructive at all. The situation should not have gotten to the point that it did. There was a failure. Thousands of good American people are dead, hundred thousand more affected.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

Anybody who tries to blame any one person for this tragedy is simply not thinking rationally. There is no way that one person CAN be blamed, or even one organization.

Thats an incredibly apathetic statement and not constructive at all. The situation should not have gotten to the point that it did. There was a failure. Thousands of good American people are dead, hundred thousand more affected.

WRONG! If there's one thing I'm not, Backlash, it's apathetic. Of course, there was a freaking failure! No shit, Sherlock? However, that does not mean that ONE person, or ONE organization is the cause of that failure. This failure was system-wide, at the city, parish, state and national levels. To put the blame on one person or organization is to UNDERESTIMATE the fucking breadth of this problem. If you do that, it WILL happen again, and it will CONTINUE to happen. You'd have to have twenty hands to have enough fingers to point at those who are to blame for what happened.

[Parkbandit]

When Harmnone uses the term "FUCKING".. it scares me.

And arouses me at the same time.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

Hon, you kind of took my comment to Dave out of context. He changes his mind all the time on who is to "blame" but of course the president NEVER does a thing wrong, EVAR.

I think W should have gone back to the White House right away, beyond that I don't have any negative comments concerning him. It seemed like once he put his boot up a few people's ass things started to happen. That could just be perception.

[HarmNone]

When HarmNone becomes "aroused", things in the immediate area begin to change shape pretty quickly. ;)

I don't have much of a temper most of the time. However, if something hits me in the wrong way I can be somewhat...ummm... hostile. Yeah. Hostile. :flamed:

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by HarmNone]

[Back]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

Anybody who tries to blame any one person for this tragedy is simply not thinking rationally. There is no way that one person CAN be blamed, or even one organization.

Thats an incredibly apathetic statement and not constructive at all. The situation should not have gotten to the point that it did. There was a failure. Thousands of good American people are dead, hundred thousand more affected.

WRONG! If there's one thing I'm not, Backlash, it's apathetic. Of course, there was a freaking failure! No shit, Sherlock? However, that does not mean that ONE person, or ONE organization is the cause of that failure. This failure was system-wide, at the city, parish, state and national levels. To put the blame on one person or organization is to UNDERESTIMATE the fucking breadth of this problem. If you do that, it WILL happen again, and it will CONTINUE to happen. You'd have to have twenty hands to have enough fingers to point at those who are to blame for what happened.

Yep. When there is a failure you need to identify it and resolve it.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

Anybody who tries to blame any one person for this tragedy is simply not thinking rationally. There is no way that one person CAN be blamed, or even one organization.

Thats an incredibly apathetic statement and not constructive at all. The situation should not have gotten to the point that it did. There was a failure. Thousands of good American people are dead, hundred thousand more affected.

WRONG! If there's one thing I'm not, Backlash, it's apathetic. Of course, there was a freaking failure! No shit, Sherlock? However, that does not mean that ONE person, or ONE organization is the cause of that failure. This failure was system-wide, at the city, parish, state and national levels. To put the blame on one person or organization is to UNDERESTIMATE the fucking breadth of this problem. If you do that, it WILL happen again, and it will CONTINUE to happen. You'd have to have twenty hands to have enough fingers to point at those who are to blame for what happened.

Yep. When there is a failure you need to identify it and resolve it.

Exactly. In this case, I'm quite sure we will find any number of identified failures that need to be resolved, not just one.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.


To often people want to pin George Bush for not reacting. As a resident of Florida.. who saw 4 hurricanes in a month last year.. I can tell you that FEMA responded in the traditional manner.

But hey.. why not blame George. Afterall, he obviously had something to gain out of it for his friends in Halliburton or Saudi Arabia.

:rolleyes:

Hon, you kind of took my comment to Dave out of context. He changes his mind all the time on who is to "blame" but of course the president NEVER does a thing wrong, EVAR.

I think W should have gone back to the White House right away, beyond that I don't have any negative comments concerning him. It seemed like once he put his boot up a few people's ass things started to happen. That could just be perception.

#1 - Why are you listening to Dave? No one does.

#2 - I actually agree. I think Bush should have cancelled his speech in San Diego (I think that's where he spoke) and gone to Washington.

I think the problem with Bush is that people perceive him incorrectly. Him going to Washington wouldn't have gotten anything going faster.. but it's perception that people go by more often than not.

[KraizMaule]

Bush made a mistake by acting slowly, and it could easily hurt him politically. Now that people are being rescued, I think he has a good chance of pulling things back together.

Race had nothing to do with the tragedy, that's ludicrous.

Anyone thinking it might be smart to only make New Orleans an industrial hub, and remove all the residential and tourist attractions somewhere across the lake? I realize we need the port, but other than that, I mean let's be smart, this city is sinking at a rate of 1 inch a year, keeping the levies up to date could cost the U.S a lot.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
/quote]
#1 - Why are you listening to Dave? No one does.


I occasionally just can't help myself. But I have a feeling that Back is going to create a small graphic for me to use to just say no to Dave. ;)

This place is way more fun when you are actively posting. :kiss:

[HarmNone]

Dave, for all intents and purposes, is infinitely ignorable...unless you're looking for a laugh. Then, by all means, read his posts. :lol:

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by HarmNone]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Dave, for all intents and purposes, is infinitely ignorable...unless you're looking for a laugh. The, by all means, read his posts. :lol:

Or give your eyes a rest and turn on a white noise generator. You'll get the same degree of meaningful content.

Raven

[Back]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit
/quote]
#1 - Why are you listening to Dave? No one does.


I occasionally just can't help myself. But I have a feeling that Back is going to create a small graphic for me to use to just say no to Dave. ;)

This place is way more fun when you are actively posting. :kiss:

Hmm. Ok. If it mends the distance between us, I’ll throw out the olive branch. Just cause I like ya. ;) But I can’t find that goofy pic of Dave’s busted toofuses. :(

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Parkbandit
/quote]
#1 - Why are you listening to Dave? No one does.


I occasionally just can't help myself. But I have a feeling that Back is going to create a small graphic for me to use to just say no to Dave. ;)

This place is way more fun when you are actively posting. :kiss:

Hmm. Ok. If it mends the distance between us, I’ll throw out the olive branch. Just cause I like ya. ;) But I can’t find that goofy pic of Dave’s busted toofuses. :(

What distance? And I'll find it!

[Gan]

this one?

[ElanthianSiren]

I try to read and consider everyone's posts, including Dave. This may indicate that I have too much time on my hands, but I enjoy each point of view on a subject, as long as it's not "OMG! Teeoncy sucks!" 8000 times repeating (not a slam on TRL or Spun, more avoiding things that don't have a role in the grand scheme of things -- like Sarah).

The NO failure IMO was a catastrophic breakdown of all of the systems we supposedly put in place since 911. IMO, that makes it particularly disheartening to the country and shows the character of the mayor, Congress, Ex. Branch, and the American People. As HN noted, along with my dad to me after all this, catastrophy brings out the best and worst in people. I don't think it had to do with race though, more to do with poverty.

Showal = my voice of reason today.


Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
Then, you could also look at your sources and claim that the man out of the military has nothing to lose from giving the first assessment, while the man still in the military potentially could lose a great deal if this administration were portrayed in an ill light. I'm going to believe the person who has nothing to lose. A person who has nothing to lose has no inclination to speak the truth. He or she can't stand to lose anything from lying either. And of course, there's no chance the person who has nothing to lose also happens to have an axe to grind, right? I would say that like most speculative predictions, there's backing for both their positions.

Wasn't it you who posted the article where the guy made reference to Katrina being equivalent to the force of a 45 megaton nuclear warhead being dropped every minute?
It is also the federal government's responsibility, especially after 911, to provide funding for disasters and potential disasters.It's ridiculously impossible to provide funding for all potential disasters, and it's asinine to even suggest such a thing.
Originally posted by Ilvane
But of course, nothing is wrong..and they are doing a great job...god forbid anyone say so, or you aren't for your country. No one's said you aren't pro-America. That said, being pro-America doesn't excuse rabid allegations with no basis in reality (e.g. BUSH took the money away and that's why so many people died, BUSH didn't do anything about the storm, etc.).

Nah, that wasn't me, and I have never singled out Bush specifically for monetary blame. I have been very cautious to blame his administration, which includes Congress. I have blamed Bush for his attitude and lack of leadership ability with regard to the immediate time around the disaster, which has been wishy washy IMO and nonexistent.

-M

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

What distance? And I'll find it!

Here's a link to it, same one that Ganalon put up sans the helmet.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/image.php?iid=1171

[Back]

http://www.zendada.com/images/trl.jpg

[HarmNone]

That's it, Backlash! The absolute epitome of limeatars! :lol:

[TheRoseLady]

It's perfect thank you!

[Gan]

Originally posted by HarmNone
WRONG! If there's one thing I'm not, Backlash, it's apathetic. Of course, there was a freaking failure! No shit, Sherlock? However, that does not mean that ONE person, or ONE organization is the cause of that failure. This failure was system-wide, at the city, parish, state and national levels. To put the blame on one person or organization is to UNDERESTIMATE the fucking breadth of this problem. If you do that, it WILL happen again, and it will CONTINUE to happen. You'd have to have twenty hands to have enough fingers to point at those who are to blame for what happened.

HN just casted the PC version of Major Ewave (435). HN is my [insert HN explicitave here] hero.

I think the fallout will start at the local level and work its way up to state level. I dont think FEMA will get torched for some folks perceived delay nor do I think anyone specific in the Federal arena will be nailed since it involved such a catastrophic event that surpassed even the most up to date studies or the time needed to prepare for the resultes of said surveys.

I cant wait for an official timeline to come out that shows who said/issued what and when with regards to Katrina's approach, striking, and eventual moving through New Orleans.

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Dave


yeah saying get out and run for the hills was a great plan.

Last night you blamed the residents for their predicament, now you are saying that all they were told was run for the hills? So it's now the establishment? But of course not the President.
[/quote]
I never said the blame solely lies in the hands of the people who didn't get out.
Though most of it does for their lack of preparations.

A lot of the problems with the "aftermath" lies in that of the local government and their inability to follow the plans they set out.

I have never said otherwise.

And no, the president is not at fault for this. He is the president, and not the one who deals with these situations, that is FEMA.