International AID?

Since everything turns to politics, and I remember this debate well.
People complained that the us was ONLY donating some 400million dollars in aid.

I want to know where the International community is now. Why have they not pledged millions upon millions to aid the U.S. in its time of need?

Two days after the fact, and we have yet to receive offers from , France, Germany, Great Britain, Spain, Austria, Norway, Holland, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.

It angers me how people demand so much from us, yet never NEVER offer the same in return.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Dave]

[Odysia]

I agree completely, Dave.

[Terminator X]

They are trying to make to their way to the local Bank of America but the hourly M-16 crossfire from our boys in blue always seems to get in the way :smug:

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Terminator X]

We occupy which of the countries i stated?
Not to mention it will more than likely be m4 carbine fire you hear, not m16
The navy or air force really don't do that much ground fighting, so boys in blue? You might want to say the boys in tan/green digi, grey green digi, or green.
God....idiot.
(Napoleon Dynamite reference)


Iran received money from us post earthquake, UAE is rich beyond all means, Saudi Arabia the same.

Where is the money?


[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Dave]

[Terminator X]

I don't know. For the exponential amount of messages conveying sympathy, prayers and condolences, you'd think that people wouldn't have to be motivated by money to help something they feel so connected to.

[Apotheosis]

I was thinking the same thing earlier this evening, Dave.

I think that we're "expected" not to ask being "the most powerful country in the world'

Originally posted by Yswithe
I was thinking the same thing earlier this evening, Dave.

I think that we're "expected" not to ask being "the most powerful country in the world'

Its not a matter of asking, its a matter of offering, and NOBODY is doing it.

what would have happened after the tsunami, if all the U.S. sent was well wishes, condolences and prayers?



[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Dave]

[Terminator X]

Well considering that we don't have enough U.S. aid to prevent millions of people in Asia dying from molaria every year, I'd say the Tsunami aid should be a daily kind of thing :yes:

[longshot]

Originally posted by Dave

I want to know where the International community is now. Why have they not pledged millions upon millions to aid the U.S. in its time of need?



I don't even know why I waste my time, as you will simply reply to a single point that you disagree with while the rest of my post is absorbed by your "logic barrier"...

Aid is an effective form of foreign policy. We don't just give money... we get a return. It's the most effective way the United States can support its empire.

This was a hurricane. There is a hurricane season, as there has been every year. Because one of them struck a poorly planned city and caused damage beyond what was expected should not be cause for other countries to aid a largely domestic problem.

An earthquake, and subsequently, a tsunami, would be catastrophic events of an unpredictable nature. There is no "earthquake season". People just aren't going to be as sympathetic.

Further, in terms of percentage of GDP, 400 million dollars is nothing. I don't know exactly what our current GDP is, but I believe it's in excess of 11 trillion dollars a year. If other contries applied this same standard of "aid", we'd get a box of airline peanuts. "Japan is sending Playstations"...

Also, let's not kid ourselves here, this is New Orleans. Other than two weeks a year when chicks with low self esteem flash on Bourbon street... is this a major city? They have a single major sports team, and population wise, they are relatively small. According to this site, New Orleans is the 35th largest city in the US. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

If the 35th largest city in Germany flooded, you wouldn't even hear about it? Seriously...

I think your frustration comes from your inability to put things in the proper perspective.

[Back]

The US is one of, if not the, richest nation in the world. Nations that we help are very far down the list of wealthy nations for them to reciprocate.

In your all-seeing omnipotence, I guess you have proof that not one single person that is not in America has donated money to some effort somewhere for this, or even said a prayer.

We aren’t too popular on the world stage right now so I wouldn’t expect much.

[HarmNone]

For me, the joy of giving has never been tied, in any way, to what I may (or may not) receive in return. I don't alter that stance when it comes to international affairs.

I'm more fortunate than many people. That, to me, places upon me a responsibility to help those who are not as fortunate. I don't alter that stance when it comes to international affairs, either.

well gee golly dumb ass READ MY FUCKING POST.
You might be able to understand it then.

Where did I say the people of the country? I said the countries dip shit... America, not the people of America, I said France, not the people of France.

See the difference... Governments, not individual people.
(sick and tired of people not reading)

And in your all knowingness longshot, approximately 400million was offered, initially, in the end it was well over a billion dollars in aid.

Lets see Earthquake season... well we know earthquakes occur year round right?. We also know they occur along these things called fault lines... We know where these fault lines are...
Gee kinda like hurricane season...we KNOW when they occur... so then no sympathy right? Then again lets not consider the fact that there are different grades of hurricanes and all. I mean ever month a category 4 or 5 hurricane slams into the U.S. right?
We KNOW earthquakes can happen whenever,
So the aid money from these other countries was just to promote their empire right?
The 35th largest city in Germany doesn't have 500,000 people.
And there are a whole lot more displaced people than those that lived in New Orleans alone.
But its schematics and all longshot, I think you may have the inability to put things in perspective... unless its your own of course.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Dave]

Originally posted by HarmNone
For me, the joy of giving has never been tied, in any way, to what I may (or may not) receive in return. I don't alter that stance when it comes to international affairs.

I'm more fortunate than many people. That, to me, places upon me a responsibility to help those who are not as fortunate. I don't alter that stance when it comes to international affairs, either.

Its the expectations that we will go out of our way, and we do, without demanding much in return. Yet NEVER EVER do those that demand from us practice what they preach.
That i take issue with.

[SpunGirl]

At least the US has the means to support itself in this tragedy. I would rather take care of it ourselves then be beholden to some other country when we don't want to be.

Personally, I'm proud of living in a nation that has the ability to handle our own shit, and the ability to be generous to other nations that are not as fortunate. I get that people are irked that the "offer" has not been made, and I agree it would be nice, but whatever. We're the US, it's not necessary.

-K

[Terminator X]

Do you have the ability to make an emphatic vouch for yourself to one of your superiors in order to be able to catch the next flight to the south to help with the relief effort, Dave?

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Terminator X]

[longshot]

Originally posted by Dave

Its the expectations that we will go out of our way, and we do, without demanding much in return. Yet NEVER EVER do those that demand from us practice what they preach.
That i take issue with.

We do demand in return. This is what you're failing to understand.

When they need airplanes... do you really think Boeing vs. Airbus comes down to how comfortable the seats are?

When they need infrastructure built, and Haliburton, or some other American contractor is chosen, do you think this is an accident?

We get our pound of flesh... it just doesn't come in the form of a nominal contribution for disaster aid.

This is what I tried explaining. I don't want to call you stupid... I really don't... but how hard is it to see?

[Terminator X]

Something about someone who preaches about the hellish injustices of aid and at the same time has a target dummy filled with lead in their avatar makes me giggle.

I dont have that option due to a a small deployment that is coming up in under a month.
If it was up to me I would be down there, but I am not A member of the National Guard, so I dont have that option at the moment.

[Terminator X]

Even though the only thing I enjoy about you is seeing myself in your signature, good luck on your deployment :D

Originally posted by SpunGirl
At least the US has the means to support itself in this tragedy. I would rather take care of it ourselves then be beholden to some other country when we don't want to be.

Personally, I'm proud of living in a nation that has the ability to handle our own shit, and the ability to be generous to other nations that are not as fortunate. I get that people are irked that the "offer" has not been made, and I agree it would be nice, but whatever. We're the US, it's not necessary.

-K

Im not talking about countries that are not as fortunate, I am talking about countries that are. So the argument your making really does not apply. I am not asking for Sudan to donate money, I am wondering why the first world countries are not, when they demand we do.

Originally posted by Terminator X
Even though the only thing I enjoy about you is seeing myself in your signature, good luck on your deployment :D
Dont worry ill be back in two months.

Originally posted by Terminator X
Something about someone who preaches about the hellish injustices of aid and at the same time has a target dummy filled with lead in their avatar makes me giggle.
Considering it is people who make holes in target dummies doing most of the work down in the devastated areas right now, I don't see why you giggle.

[Apotheosis]

We might not "need" the money, but offering aid is a symbolic sign of support.

Much like people are donating blood, food, clothing, and other supplies, large organizations and countries can offer aid, even if the amounts are token.

Let us see what important people in a foreign government are saying about this hurricane.

For this case study class we will take the German stance.

Good reading here.
http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2475

Use for the quotes, i dont really care about the comentary.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Dave]

[Apotheosis]

quoted from a friend IMing me:

"I hope everyone in europe likes having no corn."

[Amber]

Several countries have offered aid.

Russia
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050830/41254695.html

Canada
http://en.rian.ru/world/20050830/41255459.html

Saudi Arabia
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2005News/News/NewsDetail.asp?cIndex=5501

Venezuela
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-09-01T004759Z_01_MOL102882_RTRIDST_0_INTERNATIONAL-WEATHER-KATRINA-CHAVEZ-DC.XML


Iran, not an offer of help, but an expression of condolence.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20050830/41255459.html

Another expression of condolence from the UN this time.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0509/S00003.htm

I think it's going to take a bit of time for the severity of this to really sink in. I know that even this morning, it hadn't really hit me just how devastating Katrina was. It will take some time, I'm sure, for most countries to assess the damage, realize the devastation, go through the proper channels to make an offer of help, etc. I have to say I'm really kinda surprised and saddened that there hasn't been an immediate outpouring of worldwide assistance or at least sympathy though.

[Phydra]

Originally posted by Dave
Let us see what important people in a foreign government are saying about this hurricane.

For this case study class we will take the German stance.

Good reading here.
http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2475

Use for the quotes, i dont really care about the comentary.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Dave]

I followed a link to the letters page about this twit's comments.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372434,00.html

[Back]

I guess Amber’s post kinda PWNs this thread.

But knowing Dave he wont back down from this argument.

That's really cool to see Russia offering aid like that. It shows that they really don't things for granted (like giving aid to that submarine that sank) go Russia!

- Arkans

[Sean of the Thread]

Putin is one scary mother fucker. It's weird reading his kind words.

Russia is the only one of her links <that is working> that is offering aid in any way necessary, though yet to see a contribution.

Im happy they stood up
I will believe it when i see it though.

Read the links before you post next time backlash.

It's all a matter if the United States ACCEPTS Putins aid. It all comes down to that. Frankly, I'm really glad the guy stepped up and said what he did.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

"The Venezuelan president, applauded by supporters for his self-proclaimed socialist revolution to fight poverty, has offered to send cheap fuel, humanitarian aid and relief workers to the disaster area.

Venezuelan state oil firm PDVSA has offered $1 million from its U.S.-based refinery unit Citgo for relief efforts."

I'd like to see more aid from other countries (who can afford it) as well. However I'm also realistic and realize that the U.S. is considered a rich country, one of the very few.

If Donald Trump all of a sudden lost one of his hotels due to a fire, are you going to aid him?

[Edited on 9/1/2005 by CrystalTears]

as am I arkans.

[Amber]

Oops, posted the wrong link for Canada. Here's one that's actually for Canada.

http://www.psepc.gc.ca/publications/statements/2005/20050830_e.asp

And since the Venezuela link from last night no longer works, here's a new one.

http://www.psepc.gc.ca/publications/statements/2005/20050830_e.asp

And a question for you, Dave. What makes the offer of assistance from Russia meaningful while the offer from Saudi Arabia isn't?

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Amber]

[weasel82]

Yo guys,

check these new orleans satellite photos:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/new-orleans-imagery.htm

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave
Russia is the only one of her links <that is working> that is offering aid in any way necessary, though yet to see a contribution.

Im happy they stood up
I will believe it when i see it though.

Read the links before you post next time backlash.

You know, I didn’t even need to read those links to know you were waaaay off base with your claim. Maybe you should crawl out of that tiny little head of yours and read a few links before you post.

Germany Offers Aid (http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=23291&n ame=Schroeder+offers+U.S.+aid+after+hurricane+Katr ina)

[Warriorbird]

Maybe we've angered a lot of the other countries. Maybe they're cheap. I think it's probably a bit of both.

I'm glad to see the ones that stepped up step up... though, methinks Venezuela has an agenda. If Chavez really wants us to have a socialist revolution he should drop Citgo's prices.

[Shalla]

We have fund raisers going on right now from various charities here in canada for the victims of the hurricane. And that is just the citizens. I'm sure the government will be lending support in some way, for clean up, from both medical and what little army we have. Canada is always lending support to the americans when it comes to tragedy such as this. Just because it's not televised doesn't mean there isn't ANY support from canada. I'm not even going to post links to prove this fact. If you fail to see that, you are obviously only looking at the big dollar signs.

I'm sorry but before complaining what others haven't done. What exactly are you doing to help your fellow americans during this tragedy?

[Jadewolff]

Oh, and here's France...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_eu/france_us_katrina_hk4_1

PARIS - French humanitarian aid officials met on Thursday to examine ways of providing support for victims of Hurricane Katrina in the United States, a French Foreign Ministry spokesman said. France is considering ways of mobilizing relief teams from the French Antilles in the Caribbean, ministry spokesman Denis Simonneau said at a news conference.

[Phydra]

Thank you for posting those links of international offers of aid. I am really glad to see them. :)

[Shalla]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Yswithe
I was thinking the same thing earlier this evening, Dave.

I think that we're "expected" not to ask being "the most powerful country in the world'

Its not a matter of asking, its a matter of offering, and NOBODY is doing it.

what would have happened after the tsunami, if all the U.S. sent was well wishes, condolences and prayers?


I believe that Nobody thing has already been proven wrong. But for you to actually think that nobody would offer help is beyond me.

As for the tsunami. Geez dave, you're bringing that up as a comparison? The countries affected by the tsunami are third world countries who are still reeling from the aftermath to this day. I am sure their leaders have offered their condolensces but are you honestly expecting THEM to send millions after millions like you are asking right now? When they most obviously have nothing to give? You might as well bleed them dry.

I'm sure many if not majority of americans don't think like you do.

[Showal]

I'm more curious in these situations where the people who have money are. I understand that Bill Gates is a huge donater in times of tragedy and he gives lots of money to aids and cancer research. Where are people like Ben Affleck, J-Lo, 50 Cent? Where are our performers? I can give roughly 1-3% of my salary to charity, which I admit is not that much, but considering I don't have all that much extra left over on my paycheck, it's generous. Ben Affleck, however, earned 37.5 million dollars on Jersey Girl, Paycheck, and Gigli in 2003 alone. He has a little more leeway with spare cash than I do. Why don't we ever really hear of these big stars making large donations?

Originally posted by Shalla

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Yswithe
I was thinking the same thing earlier this evening, Dave.

I think that we're "expected" not to ask being "the most powerful country in the world'

Its not a matter of asking, its a matter of offering, and NOBODY is doing it.

what would have happened after the tsunami, if all the U.S. sent was well wishes, condolences and prayers?


I believe that Nobody thing has already been proven wrong. But for you to actually think that nobody would offer help is beyond me.

As for the tsunami. Geez dave, you're bringing that up as a comparison? The countries affected by the tsunami are third world countries who are still reeling from the aftermath to this day. I am sure their leaders have offered their condolensces but are you honestly expecting THEM to send millions after millions like you are asking right now? When they most obviously have nothing to give? You might as well bleed them dry.

I'm sure many if not majority of americans don't think like you do.
Read my posts again and think about your comments and how they don't apply.

[Back]

Some are.

Usher, Green Day, Alicia Keys Sign On For Hurricane Relief Concert September 10 (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1508739/20050831/usher.jhtml?headlines=true)

I am glad to see these countries have stepped up support.
My outcry reached their ears :) <joke>

[CrystalTears]

Why are you assuming that celebrities haven't contributed? Because it hasn't been mentioned on national news?

Originally posted by Shalla
We have fund raisers going on right now from various charities here in canada for the victims of the hurricane. And that is just the citizens. I'm sure the government will be lending support in some way, for clean up, from both medical and what little army we have. Canada is always lending support to the Americans when it comes to tragedy such as this. Just because it's not televised doesn't mean there isn't ANY support from canada. I'm not even going to post links to prove this fact. If you fail to see that, you are obviously only looking at the big dollar signs.

I'm sorry but before complaining what others haven't done. What exactly are you doing to help your fellow Americans during this tragedy?
Ive already donated money to the red cross, what i could afford at the moment. I also posted a thread here with the title AID to encourage people to offer donations.

[JadeScarlet]

I just got off the phone with my dad. The people that are moving into the astrodome will require at least 750 people per day to cook food and cost $4.5 million dollars each month at a cost of $1.75 per meal. The Baptists and Methodists church of Houston have each pledged 1 million for the first month.

And the US government isn't going to pay a cent.

So its up to the charities and donations of citizens to take care of these people who were left homeless. I'm moving back to Houston soon and I'll probably volunteer to help cook a few meals. I'm glad other countries are offering their support. Since our own government won't help its poorest people, its good that another government will.

If you want to help, donate to the red cross, and if you are in the Houston area, try to volunteer to cook meals for the people in the Astrodome.

[Warriorbird]

Some networks and entertainers are doing stuff:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/09/01/television.katrina.benefits.reut/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/09/01/katrina.connickjr.ap/index.html

Holy crap there's a lot of celebrities:

http://www.musicforrelief.org/


[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Back]

Originally posted by JadeScarlet
I just got off the phone with my dad. The people that are moving into the astrodome will require at least 750 people per day to cook food and cost $4.5 million dollars each month at a cost of $1.75 per meal. The Baptists and Methodists church of Houston have each pledged 1 million for the first month.

And the US government isn't going to pay a cent.

So its up to the charities and donations of citizens to take care of these people who were left homeless. I'm moving back to Houston soon and I'll probably volunteer to help cook a few meals. I'm glad other countries are offering their support. Since our own government won't help its poorest people, its good that another government will.

If you want to help, donate to the red cross, and if you are in the Houston area, try to volunteer to cook meals for the people in the Astrodome.

I’ve been careful not to criticize our federal government so far. I’m sure they know there is an entire city on our on soil thats being evacuated, that tens of thousands are still in need of evacuation and emergency care, and hundreds of thousands are now without homes.

So far they’ve tapped the oil reserve. Haven’t checked the headlines lately but I’m sure some money has to have gotten to someone, or some agency is coordinating people to help in the rescue. We pay an aweful lot of taxes AND many donate to help on top of it.

[Warriorbird]

More celebrities affected/helping:

http://www.sohh.com/thewire/read.php?contentID=7493

[crazymage]

how is it possible Dave hasnt had an accident cleaning his rifle yet.

Originally posted by JadeScarlet
I just got off the phone with my dad. The people that are moving into the astrodome will require at least 750 people per day to cook food and cost $4.5 million dollars each month at a cost of $1.75 per meal. The Baptists and Methodists church of Houston have each pledged 1 million for the first month.

And the US government isn't going to pay a cent.

So its up to the charities and donations of citizens to take care of these people who were left homeless. I'm moving back to Houston soon and I'll probably volunteer to help cook a few meals. I'm glad other countries are offering their support. Since our own government won't help its poorest people, its good that another government will.

If you want to help, donate to the red cross, and if you are in the Houston area, try to volunteer to cook meals for the people in the Astrodome.

Shoot yourself for that comment please.

[ElanthianSiren]

*squish. I see someone beat me to it.

Carry on.
-M

[Edited on Thu, September st, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Jolena]

I have to say that it's disheartening how long it's taking the government to respond with medical supplies and evacuation for the hospitals full of life-support dependant babies and other folks, as well as how long it's taken them to get those poor folks out of the superdome. I realize that this disaster is of immense proportion and that there are so many people scrambling to help and doing everything they can.

My standpoint is this: We knew days before Katrina hit that it would most likely be a category 4/5 hurricane. We knew that the effects of that storm could possibly topple the levees used to keep New Orleans dry. We knew the round about time it would hit. Why would we not already have prepared the things that they would need should a category 5 hurricane hit that city? I saw a live interview with Bush this morning on Good Morning America. She asked him this exact same question-- Why is it taking so long to get these people the medical supplies, food, and water that they need when we knew days beforehand that this could be a category four or five hurricane? Surprisingly enough (not), he skirted the subject.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure that after seeing first hand while flying over New Orleans, the damage that has occurred to LA, Alabama and Missippi, that Bush felt horrid for not responding sooner. I'm sure that he feels sympathy for all those people who are dying, or are dead now, due to no medical help, no food, no water that is clean and no way out. But THEY KNEW. Even after asked when the supplies would be there and if he was satisfied with the pace of relief efforts, Bush said that it would be days before anything could reach them. Days that those people in hospitals, hospitals mind you that are OUT OF GENERATOR FUEL AND FOOD AND WATER, hospitals that have put in desperate calls to the Associated Press themselves after feeling abandoned without any word of rescue, hospitals with nurses who themselves are now sick from days without clean water and food, days that those people will have to wait before they can be evacuated.

Now I move on to the reason that some of those hospitals cannot be evacuated, why some of those people in the superdome are still stranded there with rotting, dead bodies of those that came with them: people with guns who are shooting at the helicopters that are coming to help them out. people who are so desperate after days of no relief, no food/water/toilets/baths/medical attention, that they are shooting at the ones who wish to rescue them.


And finally, during his interview with Good Morning America, he was asked about his policy about those that are looting stores only for medical supplies/food/water/clothing/shoes. His response? 0 Tolerance. ZERO tolerance to the people whom this government can't get to, to rescue. ZERO tolerance to the people who have children that are in desperate need of clean diapers, clean clothing, food, and clean water to drink. ZERO tolerance to those that are only taking what will already go under the disease infested waters to be destroyed, in order that they may survive.

My response? FUCK BUSH.

As for international aid, I don't expect them to offer us aid and the fact that some of them have is heartening. I don't expect the US government to take said aid, but if they do, great. If not, so be it. I'm pretty sure we can afford to take care of our own with the donations and help of everyone else in America who are helping our people during a tragedy. The one thing that makes me incredibly proud of Americans is this: For every looter that shoots at a cop for trying to help out, in desperation mind you-- these are normally good people in a horrifying and tragic situation, people that are scared, not thinking clearly after all of this-- for every one of those people, there are four that will open up their homes to a displace family they don't even know. There are four who will donate all that they can to help out. There are four that will donate food, clothing, shelter and clothing.

Long post I know, but now I got it off of my chest. Yes, I'm angry at our President. :banghead:

[Showal]

I was wrong, apparently. I retract my statement about the celebrities.

[Sean of the Thread]

As far as the Zero tolerance I understand that more so now. Authorities were stationed at alot of these places "controlling" the looting to just survival goods and they still stormed the places taking guns/jewelry etc from walmart and such. Disgusting.

[Showal]

I'm curious why a lot of people did not leave. I understand some people (hospitals and other public service places) could not leave. If I heard a storm this big was coming and potentially/likely would flood my town in over 20 feet of water, I'd pack up what I could and get out. If I came back and it didn't flood, well, then a hastily made smart decision turned out to be incorrect ... but what if it was right? At least my family would have been far enough away. (And my ferrets too, Melissa)

Edited to add:

I am in no way calling the people that stayed idiots. I just don't understand the decision. It's kind of like the people shooting at rescue workers. I just don't understand what is going on down there.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Showal]

[Hulkein]

FUCK BUSH

[Jolena]

Well to be honest, many of them stayed out of stupidity. I have mixed feelings on this because on one hand, they are idiots and should have left. However, the hardest hit areas were the poorer regions and 1 out of 6 there do not have cars to travel in. You can just imagine how many did have cars but no funds in order to travel the amount of miles needed and no way to pay for a hotel or anywhere else they could reside while the storm raged. I don't know the figures on that portion but I did hear several times that 1 in 6 were without transportation.

Then you figure in the people who were in nursing homes, too elderly and sick to make it, and all the folks who were in hospitals already.

Yes, though, there were many who stayed behind to stop looters from ravaging their homes. The same homes ironically, that were flooded and are now in ruin anyhow.

It doesn't stop my humane side from feeling the greatest of sympathy for them however. I guess that's the part of myself that I struggle with.

Originally posted by Jolena
I have to say that it's disheartening how long it's taking the government to respond with medical supplies and evacuation for the hospitals full of life-support dependant babies and other folks, as well as how long it's taken them to get those poor folks out of the superdome. I realize that this disaster is of immense proportion and that there are so many people scrambling to help and doing everything they can.

My standpoint is this: We knew days before Katrina hit that it would most likely be a category 4/5 hurricane. We knew that the effects of that storm could possibly topple the levees used to keep New Orleans dry. We knew the round about time it would hit. Why would we not already have prepared the things that they would need should a category 5 hurricane hit that city? I saw a live interview with Bush this morning on Good Morning America. She asked him this exact same question-- Why is it taking so long to get these people the medical supplies, food, and water that they need when we knew days beforehand that this could be a category four or five hurricane? Surprisingly enough (not), he skirted the subject.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure that after seeing first hand while flying over New Orleans, the damage that has occurred to LA, Alabama and Missippi, that Bush felt horrid for not responding sooner. I'm sure that he feels sympathy for all those people who are dying, or are dead now, due to no medical help, no food, no water that is clean and no way out. But THEY KNEW. Even after asked when the supplies would be there and if he was satisfied with the pace of relief efforts, Bush said that it would be days before anything could reach them. Days that those people in hospitals, hospitals mind you that are OUT OF GENERATOR FUEL AND FOOD AND WATER, hospitals that have put in desperate calls to the Associated Press themselves after feeling abandoned without any word of rescue, hospitals with nurses who themselves are now sick from days without clean water and food, days that those people will have to wait before they can be evacuated.

Now I move on to the reason that some of those hospitals cannot be evacuated, why some of those people in the superdome are still stranded there with rotting, dead bodies of those that came with them: people with guns who are shooting at the helicopters that are coming to help them out. people who are so desperate after days of no relief, no food/water/toilets/baths/medical attention, that they are shooting at the ones who wish to rescue them.


And finally, during his interview with Good Morning America, he was asked about his policy about those that are looting stores only for medical supplies/food/water/clothing/shoes. His response? 0 Tolerance. ZERO tolerance to the people whom this government can't get to, to rescue. ZERO tolerance to the people who have children that are in desperate need of clean diapers, clean clothing, food, and clean water to drink. ZERO tolerance to those that are only taking what will already go under the disease infested waters to be destroyed, in order that they may survive.

My response? FUCK BUSH.

As for international aid, I don't expect them to offer us aid and the fact that some of them have is heartening. I don't expect the US government to take said aid, but if they do, great. If not, so be it. I'm pretty sure we can afford to take care of our own with the donations and help of everyone else in America who are helping our people during a tragedy. The one thing that makes me incredibly proud of Americans is this: For every looter that shoots at a cop for trying to help out, in desperation mind you-- these are normally good people in a horrifying and tragic situation, people that are scared, not thinking clearly after all of this-- for every one of those people, there are four that will open up their homes to a displace family they don't even know. There are four who will donate all that they can to help out. There are four that will donate food, clothing, shelter and clothing.

Long post I know, but now I got it off of my chest. Yes, I'm angry at our President. :banghead:

You're so fucking stupid. Do you have any idea the size of a logistical operation that is underway? What it takes to move the supplies into the area, what it takes to move the people out?

Yep everything is Bushes fault.
EVERYTHING WRONG IN THE UNIVERSE IS PRESIDENT BUSHES FAULT. Sit back and read your statement and ponder how asinine your accusations are.

[Hulkein]

FCUK TEH SHRUB

[Jolena]

first off, Dave I did not say it was ALL President Bush's fault. I did however say that his zero tolerance policy is complete bullshit and I stand by that. Secondly, I said that I find it incredibly disheartening that they did not prepare AHEAD of time for this disaster as much as they conceivably could. Thirdly, I stated that I am fully aware of the magnitude of this relief effort and how long it takes to organize and deploy said relief.

They knew it was coming however, and in my opinion, as assanine as you might think it is simply because it differs from yours, I feel they should have prepared better.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Jolena
They knew it was coming however, and in my opinion, as assanine as you might think it is simply because it differs from yours, I feel they should have prepared better.

Such as how they told people to relocate to the NO Convention Center. And when they got there? No one is there to take them out of the city. People are dying inside and outside the walls of a place they were told to evacuate to. FUBAR.

Raven

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Ravenstorm]

[Back]

Starting to hear reports that if we weren’t involved in Iraq we could be handling many aspects of this tragedy much better.

[Hulkein]

I HEARD TEHM SAME REPORTZ BACKLASH, WAY TO STAY PLUGGED IN

[Hulkein]

IM GETTING NEW REPORTS, THIS JUST IN:

HURRICANE KATRINA WAS SUPPOSED TO HIT BUSH'S TEXAS RANCH BUT HALLIBURTON PAID HER OFF AND TAHTS WHY IT WAS NEW ORLEANS

[Jolena]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Jolena
They knew it was coming however, and in my opinion, as assanine as you might think it is simply because it differs from yours, I feel they should have prepared better.


Such as how they told people to relocate to the NO Convention Center. And when they got there? No one is there to take them out of the city. People are dying inside and outside the walls of a place they were told to evacuate to. FUBAR.

Raven

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Ravenstorm]

Exactly, that is just ONE of the ways they could have prepared better.

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by Jolena]

[Miss X]

From the Guardian today:

Offers have been received from Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, NATO and the Organization of American States.

Still, Bush told ABC-TV: "I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn't asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. But this country's going to rise up and take care of it.''

"You know,'' he said, "we would love help, but we're going to take care of our own business as well, and there's no doubt in my mind we'll succeed.


I'd hardly say that the US has not been offered international aid. In fact, it seems like there has been an abundance of it.

[Edited on 1-9-05 by Miss X]

[HarmNone]

Of course, there have been offers, Miss X. There was never any doubt in my mind that such offers had been made, and would continue to be made. Humankind is, for the most part, caring. Most of us will reach out to those in need. Because of that, most of us realize that others will do the same. :)

[Miss X]

Exactly. Most realise, however, there are of course those who decide to make false statements without even taking the time to type "international aid for Katrina" into google. My post was intended for those people. They know who they are. ;)



[Edited on 2-9-05 by Miss X]

[HarmNone]

Heh. I can remember my grandmother telling me (back when there were covered wagons plying the plains ;) ), when I was upset about something I witnessed and felt was wrong, or uncaring, to look into my own heart. What I found there would be what was in most peoples' hearts, but not in all. She wanted me to understand that there were some people who always thought the worst, and always assumed the worst, but that most people were good, caring and giving.

Thankfully, the majority do not depend on what they get back to determine what they will give. They know that most people are as anxious to give as they are, and want only the best for others. The exceptions usually get back what they give, as well.

[ElanthianSiren]

HN, your posts never fail to fill me with hope when I feel really down.

Thanks

-M

[Skirmisher]

This disaster in New Orleans has been a possibility for a long time so I cannot blame the President for all of the difficulty in responding to a crisis of such proportions.

I DO think that its becoming more and more apparent that the states hardest hit would have been better able to respond if they had their full complement of National Guard units available to them.

I also DO hold Bush accountable for what I see as weak leadership in yet another national crisis. I thought the editorial in today's New York Times did an excellent job in capturing my feelings regarding his reactions in yesterdays news conference and his overall response.

It is as follows:

Waiting for a Leader - New York Times Sept 1, 2005 --Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01thu1.html?pagewanted=print)

George W. Bush gave one of the worst speeches of his life yesterday, especially given the level of national distress and the need for words of consolation and wisdom. In what seems to be a ritual in this administration, the president appeared a day later than he was needed. He then read an address of a quality more appropriate for an Arbor Day celebration: a long laundry list of pounds of ice, generators and blankets delivered to the stricken Gulf Coast. He advised the public that anybody who wanted to help should send cash, grinned, and promised that everything would work out in the end.

We will, of course, endure, and the city of New Orleans must come back. But looking at the pictures on television yesterday of a place abandoned to the forces of flood, fire and looting, it was hard not to wonder exactly how that is going to come to pass. Right now, hundreds of thousands of American refugees need our national concern and care. Thousands of people still need to be rescued from imminent peril. Public health threats must be controlled in New Orleans and throughout southern Mississippi. Drivers must be given confidence that gasoline will be available, and profiteering must be brought under control at a moment when television has been showing long lines at some pumps and spot prices approaching $4 a gallon have been reported.

Sacrifices may be necessary to make sure that all these things happen in an orderly, efficient way. But this administration has never been one to counsel sacrifice. And nothing about the president's demeanor yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis.

While our attention must now be on the Gulf Coast's most immediate needs, the nation will soon ask why New Orleans's levees remained so inadequate. Publications from the local newspaper to National Geographic have fulminated about the bad state of flood protection in this beloved city, which is below sea level. Why were developers permitted to destroy wetlands and barrier islands that could have held back the hurricane's surge? Why was Congress, before it wandered off to vacation, engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area's flood protection?

It would be some comfort to think that, as Mr. Bush cheerily announced, America "will be a stronger place" for enduring this crisis. Complacency will no longer suffice, especially if experts are right in warning that global warming may increase the intensity of future hurricanes. But since this administration won't acknowledge that global warming exists, the chances of leadership seem minimal.

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Skirmisher]

[Terminator X]

I honestly don't even want to think about the amount of people that are going to die from swamp fever related illnesses. Shit.

[Warriorbird]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168129,00.html

Regarding France.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

While our attention must now be on the Gulf Coast's most immediate needs, the nation will soon ask why New Orleans's levees remained so inadequate. Publications from the local newspaper to National Geographic have fulminated about the bad state of flood protection in this beloved city, which is below sea level. Why were developers permitted to destroy wetlands and barrier islands that could have held back the hurricane's surge? Why was Congress, before it wandered off to vacation, engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area's flood protection? [/i]



Or why the Army corps of Engineers working on the project of revamping the levee system had their mission scrapped in lieu of money for Iraq AFTER the Bush administration's risk assessors painted a huge bull's eye on New Orleans.

That, along with an interview with one of the engineers, was just on Aaron Brown tonight on CNN. I'll get a full transcript tomorrow.

-M

[Shalla]

Originally posted by Dave
what would have happened after the tsunami, if all the U.S. sent was well wishes, condolences and prayers?



Originally posted by Dave
I want to know where the International community is now. Why have they not pledged millions upon millions to aid the U.S. in its time of need?


Originally posted by Dave
Read my posts again and think about your comments and how they don't apply.

What about you reading your post dave? What exactly doesn't apply? Besides the fact that this whole thread is pointless.


Originally posted by Dave
Its not a matter of asking, its a matter of offering, and NOBODY is doing it.

1.) First world countries did offer assistance, and you can't expect much from third world countries besides their prayers and condolences.

2.) I don't think any countries in the world DEMANDS anything from the United states besides ASKING for help, to which the U.S have a choice to turn them down, but do not because they are allies.. they help each other out any way they can. U.S assistance, I'm sorry to say, is not entirely altruistic. The only countries in the world who really ASK for help are third world countries anyway! Don't say the U.S don't ask anything in return from them either, because in times of engaging war with other nations, they will most certainly EXPECT their cooperation. You think the presidential visits of your presidents to these countries are just to have tea and cookies?

3.) The United states is the most powerful country in the world, it's retarded for other countries to offer money as support. Do you see how ridiculous that is? Offering millions of dollars as help to a country already rich? Do you not see how that is just unheard of? They instead offer Man power, Medical and humanitarian aid, to which will still cost millions of dollars.




[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Shalla]

Shalla READ MY POSTS, thank you. I will even qote one for you

Originally posted by Dave
I am glad to see these countries have stepped up support.
My outcry reached their ears :) <joke>

[Shalla]

I'm sorry then! :lol: Your outcry was still ringing in my ears and failed to see that you understood that you're a whiney AND impatient biatche. j/k :P

though i disagree with a lot of what you posted (the long one), I'm really not in the mood anymore tonight... people here have made me sour.

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Dave]

[Shalla]

Agree to Disagree Dave :bleh:

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
HN, your posts never fail to fill me with hope when I feel really down.

Thanks

-M

There must always be hope. At times like this, hope is all many people have. However, being me, I get pretty involved when things like this happen, and if you could have seen me wandering around in tears over the past few days, you'd have wondered whether I had any hope at all.

Thankfully, down deep, there's always a flower blooming for tomorrow.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Dave
though i disagree with a lot of what you posted (the long one), I'm really not in the mood anymore tonight... people here have made me sour.

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Dave]

People here haven't MADE you anything, Dave. You are what you CHOOSE to be. I, personally, don't see any difference between what you are now and what you were ten days ago; at least, not anything evidenced by your posts.

Harmnone, you have no idea what your talking about. But please continue.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=17358&page=3 <---made me sour

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Dave]

[HarmNone]

Oh, I know exactly what I'm talking about, Dave. Your link has absolutely no impact on my statement.

[Back]

Is it just me is this crazy?

If you go to FEMA’s website there is a donations (http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/katrinadonations.shtm) page. The first listed is Red Cross (http://www.redcross.org), which is my first choice also. But third down is Pat Robertson’s “Operation Blessing” (http://www.ob.org/about/index.asp).

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Backlash]

[HarmNone]

Heh. I can surely agree with you there, Backlash. So far, my choices have been the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and North Shore Animal League. I'm not finished yet, but am researching to see where I can do the most good.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Backlash
Is it just me is this crazy?

If you go to FEMA’s website there is a donations (http://www.fema.gov/press/2005/katrinadonations.shtm) page. The first listed is Red Cross (http://www.redcross.org), which is my first choice also. But third down is Pat Robertson’s “Operation Blessing” (http://www.ob.org/about/index.asp).

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Backlash]

WTF duh! Do you think that ninja assassins who can speak spanish grow on trees?

[Asha]

Sometimes Xyelin, I think you're truly insane.

[Sean of the Thread]

Sometimes, I actually think I'm sane.

[Warriorbird]

Bush asked for IEA oil this morning.

[Amber]

Just heard that Sri Lanka is offering us aid. In light of the devastation they still face due to last year's tsunami and the economic situation there, it's really an extraordinary gesture on their part.

[Skirmisher]

I am once more let down by our President.

He arrives in Mississippi I think it was and instead of going out and viewing the scale of the destruction right away, he takes time out for a nice long photo op with the Governors of Mississippi and Alabama and the head of FEMA.

So Bush really NEEDED to be updated then instead of on air force one while flying to the area? I found it extremely sad that the time was taken from what will be a short trip to the devastated area to take his photo op. He should be ahamed of himself and the handlers who set up the photo op should be shot.

I must also wonder what exactly is the role of the head of FEMA as he has been on TV almost 24 hours a day. Is he in charge, or just the spokesperson?

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

I must also wonder what exactly is the role of the head of FEMA as he has been on TV almost 24 hours a day. Is he in charge, or just the spokesperson?

Given that the man keeps blowing his own...err horn about how well they anticipated this without ever having taken any provisions to reinforce the levees or store provisions offsite or drop adequate amounts of provisions, my bet is that he is a figurehead.

-M
edit: had to fix size issue.

[Edited on Fri, September nd, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Odysia]

Jolena's post -
Long post I know, but now I got it off of my chest. Yes, I'm angry at our President. :banghead:

You've said everything I've been griping about to friends for days. Excellent post.

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Skirmisher

I must also wonder what exactly is the role of the head of FEMA as he has been on TV almost 24 hours a day. Is he in charge, or just the spokesperson?

Given that the man keeps blowing his own...err horn about how well they anticipated this without ever having taken any provisions to reinforce the levees
and nobody did it the 30 years before either.

or store provisions offsite or drop adequate amounts of provisions, my bet is that he is a figurehead.

-M
edit: had to fix size issue.

[Edited on Fri, September nd, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

it takes time to gather the logistical supplies and transport it. It cant come overnight.

If you have been watching the news, the national guard has just recently started to create a strong presence in the area, bringing in convoys of supplies and actively moving the stranded people out.

Without being able to see into the future it is impossible to adequately prepare for any upcoming event, because you cant know all the variables that will come into play.

[CrystalTears]

Without being able to see into the future it is impossible to adequately prepare for any upcoming event, because you cant know all the variables that will come into play.

Thank you.

Welcome.

[Skirmisher]

While I will admit its hard to know all the things possible.

This particular disaster was totally foreseeable.

It has been warned against for years.

There was a special about it on the Discovery Channel In just this past year and seen by me and my family at least. One would hope that someone in the federal government may have had SOME inkling as to the possibilities in this exact case at the least.

Sure...if there was a volcano popping up in the middle of Manhattan tomorrow I could hardly fault anyone for not being prepared, but this case was NOT a surprise.

Preparedness should have been better.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
While I will admit its hard to know all the things possible.

This particular disaster was totally foreseeable.

Disasters are never foreseeable.


It has been warned against for years.
change years to decades and you will be a bit more on track.


Sure...if there was a volcano popping up in the middle of Manhattan tomorrow I could hardly fault anyone for not being prepared, but this case was NOT a surprise. no you would have still found fault, and it would solely lie in the presidents lap in your eyes.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Skirmisher
While I will admit its hard to know all the things possible.

This particular disaster was totally foreseeable.

Disasters are never foreseeable.


It has been warned against for years.
change years to decades and you will be a bit more on track.


Sure...if there was a volcano popping up in the middle of Manhattan tomorrow I could hardly fault anyone for not being prepared, but this case was NOT a surprise. no you would have still found fault, and it would solely lie in the presidents lap in your eyes.

Actually, Dave, the Bush Administration's risk assessment team warned of the risks of this specific type of storm system on this specific coastal region in 2002 or 2003. Have you not been watching the news?

-M

[Skirmisher]

Dave, just because you say it was not foreseeable does not change all the years or warning against THIS EXACT SCENARIO into thin air. They exist and they were right.

Clearly though you for some reason unknown to me you wish to deny it, this particular disaster WAS seen coming.

And again...you deciding to say that I think the opposite of what I just said, while your opinion is given every bit of the credibility it deserves, does not change my opinion that I could not find fault in the scenario I described as it is simply not something that is foreseeable as opposed to other much more likely disasters.

[CrystalTears]

All that being said, I still fail to see how this is Bush's fault. Why not blame the poor sod who built this city in the first place? Dig up his grave and bitch him out for preventive measures.

If people knew this was a problem, instead of spending dumb amounts of money making a documentary on it, how about putting it towards the funding to fix it? Nope.

The decades before that they knew as well, because they designed it to stand up to a catagory 3 hurricane.

You see in the 60's when it was built that was the plan. That means there was 40 years of presidents to fix the same problem. Why didnt they do it?

Amazing if you look into history just a little.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Dave, just because you say it was not foreseeable does not change all the years or warning against THIS EXACT SCENARIO into thin air. They exist and they were right.

Clearly though you for some reason unknown to me you wish to deny it, this particular disaster WAS seen coming.

And again...you deciding to say that I think the opposite of what I just said, while your opinion is given every bit of the credibility it deserves, does not change my opinion that I could not find fault in the scenario I described as it is simply not something that is foreseeable as opposed to other much more likely disasters.

There are years warning for just about every disaster. What of hurricane Andrew?

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Without being able to see into the future it is impossible to adequately prepare for any upcoming event, because you cant know all the variables that will come into play.

Thank you. I could have sworn that all day Sunday they(television news) were saying loss of life was inevitable when the Hurricane hit. They knew that already. They also knew the Hurricane was going to be more than a category 3 and the levees were only capable of containing category 3 hurricane waters.
I know situations like this spiral into things that the people in charge are often times unprepared and unable to predict but, come on now...

And what is your point DEV?
You think the stuff needed to handle this disaster appears out of thin air?
You think there are 10,000 amphibious vehicles just sitting 100miles north of NO?
Military vehicles don't travel at 100mph, your looking at convoys going 40-50mph max, and guess what,, They break down a lot, , they have to stop and get gas,and that gas has to be loaded, and the equipment has to be loaded, and the people need to be called in to load the equipment, and the people in charge need to decide which people need to be called in to load the equipment, drive the equipment, unload the equipment, fly the equipment, It takes more than a day or two to do all this, try and understand that.

Things like this do not happen instantly, you can not expect them to, try and be realistic about it.

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Dave]

[CrystalTears]

Loss of life is always possible in a category 4 or 5. especially in a poor region such as New Orleans.

Other than FORCING and SHIPPING people out of their homes and into a shelter of some kind, preventive measures are seriously hard to come by for something like this.

I'm honestly surprised they lasted there as long as they did. I seriously hope they reconsider how they plan on rebuilding, and if they do the same thing over again and people move there, have mercy on their moronic souls.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Loss of life is always possible in a category 4 or 5. especially in a poor region such as New Orleans.

Other than FORCING and SHIPPING people out of their homes and into a shelter of some kind, preventive measures are seriously hard to come by for something like this.

I'm honestly surprised they lasted there as long as they did. I seriously hope they reconsider how they plan on rebuilding, and if they do the same thing over again and people move there, have mercy on their moronic souls.

not to mention how is the government to know how many people are going to stay behind when they tell everyone to leave.

[CrystalTears]

The government is supposed to know everything and do everything to help everyone all the time, even those that refuse to help themselves. It's the Democratic way.

[Edited on 9/2/2005 by CrystalTears]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
And what is your point DEV?Actually, what is your point in asking me what's my point? I'm adding my two cents, and my point is stated in my post above yours. Re-read for clarification.


You think the stuff needed to handle this disaster appears out of thin air?No.


You think there are 10,000 amphibious vehicles just sitting 100miles north of NO? Not sure, you tell me.


Military vehicles don't travel at 100mph, your looking at convoys going 40-50mph max, and guess what,, They break down a lot, and that gas has to be loaded, they have to stop and get gas, and the equipment has to be loaded, and the people need to be called in to load the equipment, and the people in charge need to decide which people need to be called in to load the equipment, drive the equipment, unload the equipment, fly the equipment, It takes more than a day or two to do all this, try and understand that. Actually, my statement has nothing to do with the military, Bush, or anyone else you are arguing for in this thread. And I won't devote any energy arguing about Bush or the fucking military with you as they did not come anywhere near my radar when I made that post.

The people in charge = the people in charge of the state of LO, and more specifically the city of New Orleans.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Loss of life is always possible in a category 4 or 5. especially in a poor region such as New Orleans.That is what most of the news statioins were saying leading up to the Hurricane.


Other than FORCING and SHIPPING people out of their homes and into a shelter of some kind, preventive measures are seriously hard to come by for something like this.I think this is where foresight should have definitely come into play. They were probably thinking this very thing.

[Back]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
The government is supposed to know everything and do everything to help everyone all the time, even those that refuse to help themselves. It's the Democratic way.

[Edited on 9/2/2005 by CrystalTears]

Congrats. You are the first person in this thread to single out and bash one political party.

[CrystalTears]

I'm sorry. I was being sarcastic in that post and edited it to put that, and I edited without it. *sigh*.

Actually, in retrospect, I'm not sorry because being a republican is thrown in my face daily and people are pointing fingers at Bush so I'm not that far off base. I really don't give a shit who I piss off because God knows no one gives a shit about bashing parties in my direction. Whatever.

I miss PB. :tissue:

[Edited on 9/2/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Sean of the Thread]

It was seen coming since 1900.

[HarmNone]

Actually, I don't think anyone is saying this disaster is Bush's fault (or anyone else's, for that matter). This was a natural disaster, not one that some human being caused.

That having been said, I think there are some who feel that certain actions could have been taken, in advance, that would have eased the devastation created by this natural disaster. I also believe some people feel that the reponse, post disaster, has been too little, too late.

Whether or not better planning prior to the event could have prevented (or, at least, eased) the suffering and horror we're now witnessing is something we cannot know at this juncture. Whether the post-disaster response has been lacking is something that can certainly be analyzed from a number of perspectives. Different viewpoints, however, will result in different answers to this question.

Hopefully, considering the loss of life, property and dignity for thousands of people, something can be learned from what's happened...something that can be taken forward to make things better in future. At this point, that's the best that we can hope for.

[Amber]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
All that being said, I still fail to see how this is Bush's fault.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.



In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness




The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs.

I am NOT against the war in Iraq. I do, however, feel that we need to make sure we're taking care of folks at home. If there's not enough money for both, then do away with the recent tax cuts for the wealthy, raise everyone's taxes, reduce spending on extraneous things, or leave Iraq. I do feel dreadful for the people there, and I do feel terrorism needs to be stopped, but I also feel that we need to take care of our own people first and foremost.

I know Iraq is expensive, but Bush knew that something like this was very possible and chose to spend the money which could have largely eliminated the danger to divert the funding to Iraq. I'm sure he thought the risk of a hurricane of this magnitude was small, but he did know it was possible and chose to take the risk when he slashed funding for the flood control project. This, in my opinion, was an unacceptable gamble.

[Ravenstorm]

The news here was just talking about how much money the Army Corp of Engineers requested last year and how much they actually got before Congress cut it by sixty percent. And yet, Alaska got over 200 million to build a bridge to connect an island that holds 50 people to a village of 8000.

What's wrong with this picture?

Raven

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
There are years warning for just about every disaster. What of hurricane Andrew?

Yes. What of Hurricane Andrew.

As far as I know the only thing that could have helped in Andrew was better building codes and that can be said of everywhere that is prone to hurricanes.

New Orleans had a unique and addressable situation that had been warned against.

Are you going to say the situations are the same?

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by CrystalTears


Actually, in retrospect, I'm not sorry because being a republican is thrown in my face daily and people are pointing fingers at Bush so I'm not that far off base. I really don't give a shit who I piss off because God knows no one gives a shit about bashing parties in my direction. Whatever.

I miss PB. :tissue:

[Edited on 9/2/2005 by CrystalTears]

No CT, I do not and will not bash republicans en masse. I do however find fault with those who seem to refuse to see anything wrong in anything they do.

Bush is not to "blame" for what happened in New Orleans as much as I think his policies have just made the reaction and rescue operations more difficult. I think his policies have contributed to the difficulty being faced but no one can say this is all his fault.

That would be either intentionally ignoring all the years before Bush in which the situation was not addressed or someone speaking without having a better understanding of the City and the history of it and the US.

Now reaganomics I will hold accountable for this.... :P Just trying to add some levity here!

You know I hold you in the highest respect and though we may disagree on some aspects of politics I surely hope we can always discuss and debate them amicably.

[ElanthianSiren]

Thanks for Posting that, Amber. I can follow up with the transcript from Aaron Brown interviewing one of the army corp engineers to confirm.

And CT, I don't think anyone has directly blamed Bush. I have tried to be careful to blame the administration presently in power, including Congress, for the conditions that contributed to the disaster. I let them take credit where credit is due. This is a system of checks and balances.

As per Bush directly: I am very critical of his response. Note, he didn't get around to being empathetic to people until Photo Ops this afternoon. His speeches were very heartless IMO and very much doom and despair. I think a positive leader would be rallying people, not calling this the Darkest Hour etc etc. Simply put, I don't feel that he handles crisis well.

-M

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
His speeches were very heartless IMO and very much doom and despair. I think a positive leader would be rallying people, not calling this the Darkest Hour etc etc.That's very peculiar, because the editorial Skirmisher provided described him as "casual to the point of carelessness".

Regardless, I'm not surprised he isn't interested in foreign aid.

[Back]

Bush has now suffered two historical disasters. I don’t blame him for either and I certainly would not want to be in his shoes.

The American people came to the rescue on 9/11, and they are converging on Lousiana right now and that gives me more respect for the American people.

This thread Dave started was probably out of frustration at the situation, and I can totally understand that now. How did this happen, here, in America?

Latrinsorm, they both say it because its what they hear and read in the blogs and from left leaning pundits.

[Skirmisher]

Except the NYTimes while admittedly being online can not exactly be called either a "blog" or a "pundit".

Yeah and their editors cant be called liberal either right? dumbass

[Skirmisher]

You are entitled to your opinion such as it is.

... holy shit, you're not trying to say that the NY Times editorial staff is not liberal are you?

[Skirmisher]

I'm saying you change what you are saying every time you are shown to be incorrect yet never admit it and thus I value your opinion very little, but you are still entitled to it.

[ElanthianSiren]

Actually, the tone of bush's first speech was very flippant and light hearted IMO. The tone of his second speech was quite doom despair defeat 'darkest hour' imo; basically, he flip flopped IMO. I don't have to read blogs to form opinions based on what I see and hear.

-M

uh huh.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I'm saying you change what you are saying every time you are shown to be incorrect yet never admit it and thus I value your opinion very little, but you are still entitled to it.

type these words into google

blame, bush, blog, katrina
see what comes up

[Jolena]

Anyone else see the hurricane relief telethon on local newstations tonight? James and I caught the tail end, and Kanye West was there with Mike Meyers giving their little speech on why people should donate to the relief fund. Kanye West starts talking about the horrific lack of response to his people and then suddenly..right at the end, as Mike Meyers stands stonefaced next to him in shock, he says "George Bush does NOT care about black people."

I tell you what, I thought I would choke on my dinner! Mike Meyers stood there in shock for a moment, staring blankly at the camera before suddenly turning to stare at Kanye with utter disbelief. Directly after they panned over to Chris Tucker who was just as caught off guard and in shock. He paused for a moment, mouth open, eyes wide as saucers before composing himself.

I realize it's not really funny, but I won't lie, both James and I were laughing and in shock ourselves. i wonder how long until Kanye has to issue a public apology.

[Warriorbird]

His album also just dropped. Interesting.

[ElanthianSiren]

I heard about that, and I was pretty floored too. I mean, tonight it was said by Jessie Jackson, as well as comparing the Superdome to a slave ship, but he led into it a little bit, at least. From what I gather, this was just an emotional outburst.

-M

[Jolena]

Oh it was. As we watched Kanye speaking about the lack of resources, poor time on responses to rescuing the folks from the Superdome and even speaking about the pictures put out of the white people caught 'finding food' and the black people caught 'looting', he suddenly just stops his tirade, pauses and spurts out "George Bush does NOT care about black people." There was dead silence from my house and from the telethon for a good 10 seconds before the shock wore off and they panned to Chris Tucker. I was totally thrown off by that, so not what I expected.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I'm saying you change what you are saying every time you are shown to be incorrect yet never admit it and thus I value your opinion very little, but you are still entitled to it.

type these words into google

blame, bush, blog, katrina
see what comes up

Dave, can I ask, honestly, why you bother googling/reading other people's blogs? I mean, out of curiosity.

I realize occasionally one will pop up in a search, but what exactly does it gain you to display to Skirm that other people may have an opinion more left, right, or center than her own? I doubt it will change the opinion she holds what other people think.

-M

[Warriorbird]

As cocky and arrogant as Kanye is that might be a perfect spur to donations if managed right. He has a lot of backing and relevence in his own way. The same cannot be said of Jesse Jackson.

[Edited on 9-3-2005 by Warriorbird]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I'm saying you change what you are saying every time you are shown to be incorrect yet never admit it and thus I value your opinion very little, but you are still entitled to it.

type these words into google

blame, bush, blog, katrina
see what comes up

Dave, can I ask, honestly, why you bother googling/reading other people's blogs? I mean, out of curiosity.

I realize occasionally one will pop up in a search, but what exactly does it gain you to display to Skirm that other people may have an opinion more left, right, or center than her own? I doubt it will change the opinion she holds what other people think.

-M
they are political blog's ask backlash about them.

I dont bother. I read her arguments, and yours, typed in those words and ironically its the same thing.

[Warriorbird]

Some more text from what Kanye said:

I hate the way they portray us in the media, if you see a black family it says they’re looting, if you see a white family it says they’re looking for food. And, you know, it’s been five days. Because most of the people are black. And, even for me to complain about it, I would be a hypocrite. Because, I’ve tried to turn away from the tv because it’s too hard too watch. I’ve even been shopping before even giving a donation. So, now I’m calling my business manager right now to see what’s, what is the biggest amount I can give.

And, and just to imagine if I was, if I was down there and those are, those are my people down there so anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help.

With the set up, the way America is set up to help the poor, the black people, the less well off, as slow as possible. I mean, this is, Red Cross is doing everything they can. We already realize a lot of the people that could help are at war right now fighting another way and they, they’ve given them permission to go down and shoot us.

“George Bush doesn’t care about black people.”

[Jolena]

Ayup, that pretty much is what I heard. He was obviously emotional, with tears in his eyes and stumbling over his words. I was still flabergasted that he spouted out that last line. Mike Meyers looked as if he had just been ran over with a truck. He just gaped.

[Warriorbird]

Context, I assume.

http://www.sohh.com/thewire/read.php?contentID=7497

http://www.allhiphop.com/features/?ID=1170

[Edited on 9-3-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Jolena]

There was an interesting statistic given on the panel portion of the political show I watched tonight. It was stated that out of New Orlean's 480,000 people, 120,000 of them reportedly make 8,000 or less a year and 100,000 of those do not have transportation. There is much criticism being given to the head of FEMA for reportedly saying that 'There was ample warning given to the people of New Orleans. Although this is a tragedy, the ones who chose not to leave have to take some responsibility." The point of view of the panel was that many of those people who did stay behind had no way to leave. They were either too poor to put gas in a vehicle or did not have one to take out. Many of them also live in shacks and huts and are the poorest of the poor in the city.

:glances down at his feet:
Fuck I forgot I had those. Yeah they are partially to blame for the situation they are in.

[Jolena]

And where would you like them to walk to Dave? I'm asking out of genuine interest, not to mock you.

High Ground.

[Jolena]

And you think that would have kept them out of the way of Katrina while it raged? I mean it keeps them from being flooded, but not from the flying debris, 145 mile an hour winds or the 20 foot storm surge. So where would you have them shelter in on high ground?

Yeah and stay outside while the hurricane goes on. I did mention that right?

[Jolena]

Well when you answered my question with 'high ground' I thought I should ask you to specify what structure you thought they should invade to hide in. I'm not being sarcastic so i'm not quite sure why the animosity is coming from you. I'll refrain from this discussion with you in the future since you can't seem to return the courtesy.

:yawn:

[Back]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I'm saying you change what you are saying every time you are shown to be incorrect yet never admit it and thus I value your opinion very little, but you are still entitled to it.

type these words into google

blame, bush, blog, katrina
see what comes up

Dave, can I ask, honestly, why you bother googling/reading other people's blogs? I mean, out of curiosity.

I realize occasionally one will pop up in a search, but what exactly does it gain you to display to Skirm that other people may have an opinion more left, right, or center than her own? I doubt it will change the opinion she holds what other people think.

-M
they are political blog's ask backlash about them.

I dont bother. I read her arguments, and yours, typed in those words and ironically its the same thing.

I have no idea what you are talking about, dude. I read the daily news.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Yswithe
quoted from a friend IMing me:

"I hope everyone in europe likes having no corn."

I hope everyone in the US likes eating corn.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
type these words into google

blame, bush, blog, katrina
see what comes up

I did not respond to this initially for the simple reason that I don't happen to read blogs or rely on them for my information.

I did come across this on FOX News though.

Katrina Should Raise Tough Questions for Administration <----click for link (http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,168368,00.html)


Friday, September 02, 2005

By Martin Frost

Two days after hurricane Katrina struck the Gulf Coast, I took part in a one-day seminar in Washington that dealt with the role of congressional oversight of the executive branch.

No subject is more timely, and Congress – both Democrats and Republicans – needs to ask the Bush administration some very tough questions about what happened in Louisiana and Mississippi after the hurricane struck.

The seminar was co-sponsored by the Center for American Progress and American University and raised some very telling questions about the lack of effective congressional oversight in recent years.

If I were still in Congress, here are the type questions I would want posed to the administration, and I would hope that they would be asked by members of both parties.

1.) Is the new Department of Homeland Security simply an unworkable bureaucracy that is incapable of responding to a major domestic disaster in a timely way?

I was a member of the House Select Committee that created the new DHS. Did we make a mistake by submerging the Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA) in this massive new department? FEMA seemed to work well as a stand-alone agency. Now, it appears to be frozen.

2.) Have we made a terrible mistake by relying so heavily on the National Guard for our Iraqi commitment? As everyone can now see, the National Guard is essential to maintaining order in times of a domestic crisis. Should we have relied more heavily on the Reserves and active duty forces for Iraq and left the National Guard in place to deal with disasters like Katrina?

3.) Did we make a mistake by not committing active duty forces like the 82nd Airborne immediately to New Orleans once the flooding began? We have used active duty Army units to help with disaster relief in the past and there are units like the 82nd Airborne that are not currently fully committed to Iraq.

4.) One of the issues identified immediately after the 9/11 attack on New York and Washington was the local police and fire departments did not have the right communications equipment to talk to each other in times of an emergency. Once again, we have had a failure of communications equipment. Why hasn’t anything been done in the past four years to remedy this situation nationwide?

Let me emphasize again that these are not partisan questions. They should be asked vigorously by both Democrats and Republicans.

Congress in recent years has abdicated its responsibility to ensure that the Executive Branch is doing its job effectively. There are people who will view any questions posed in the aftermath of Katrina as simply a partisan attack on the Bush administration. That is not the case, and it would be a disservice to our country for anyone to attempt to muzzle Congress at this time because the questions are being posed to a Republican president.

These exact same questions should be asked if the president were a Democrat.

Congressman Henry Waxman, the ranking Democrat on the House Government Reform Committee, for years has been urging that Congress be more aggressive in asking these types of questions of the Bush administration.

And let me cite a little history: During World War II, then Sen. Harry S. Truman, D-Mo., headed a special Senate committee that tracked government waste in defense contracting. His work wound up saving our country an estimated $15 billion. He was a Democratic senator in a Democratically controlled Senate asking tough questions to a Democratic president. Republicans and Democrats should ask the same type of tough questions today.

And it should be noted that this aggressive oversight by a little-known senator propelled him into the vice presidency and, ultimately, the presidency. So congressional oversight of a president of your own party doesn’t necessarily have to harm your career. It might even pay long-term benefits.

Congress needs to get off its duff and make sure nothing like this ever happens again.

Martin Frost served in Congress from 1979 to 2005, representing a diverse district in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area. He served two terms as chairman of the House Democratic Caucus, the third-ranking leadership position for House Democrats, and two terms as chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. Frost serves as a regular contributor to FOX News Channel. He holds a Bachelor of Journalism degree from the University of Missouri and a law degree from the Georgetown Law Center.

[Showal]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Yswithe
quoted from a friend IMing me:

"I hope everyone in europe likes having no corn."

I hope everyone in the US likes eating corn.

Corn today, corn tomorrow!

[Jolena]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Yswithe
quoted from a friend IMing me:

"I hope everyone in europe likes having no corn."

I hope everyone in the US likes eating corn.

Heh, I think at this point many of those Americans along the Gulf Coast would settle for ANYthing not contanimated to eat, including corn.

[HarmNone]

I imagine they would, Jolena. So many people in that area live in small communities off the beaten path. Many of these are trapped in their homes and starving. This tragedy is so much bigger than any of us can really comprehend. As horrified as we may be, the reality is probably far worse than we can imagine. :(

[Jolena]

I definately am not looking forward to the total death count or the cause of those deaths when it's done and over with. I have a sinking feeling that as many if not more of the dead will be reported to be caused by starvation, dehydration or lack of medicines after the hurricane while they waited.

I certainly hope that at least one good thing comes out of all of this: Our emergency task force and it's responses will be reworked and looked at closely to make sure that we can respond to something like this more quickly and efficiently in the future.

Originally posted by Jolena

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Yswithe
quoted from a friend IMing me:

"I hope everyone in europe likes having no corn."

I hope everyone in the US likes eating corn.

Heh, I think at this point many of those Americans along the Gulf Coast would settle for ANYthing not contanimated to eat, including corn.

Youy've never eaten an MRE, starving does not seem that bad after a while.

[Jolena]

You're right, I haven't. I have heard they taste pretty awful. But something that is not contaminated is better then nothing after days of nothing.

[Warriorbird]

Castro just offered a ton of aid.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/03/katrina.castro/

[CrystalTears]

Castro -- an enemy of U.S. President George W. Bush and frequent subject of condemnation from the White House -- said he would not comment on the U.S. government's response to the tragedy because "this is not the time to kick an adversary -- while he's down."

Heh. He's one to talk. He doesn't care for his own very well either. In any case, I'm impressed. Even if Bush doesn't take it, I'm amazed he offered.

[Skirmisher]

Castro has not stayed in power all this time by being stupid.

I may wish he were not in charge there, but he knows enough to take advantage of a wonderful public opinion tool.

[Warriorbird]

Oh my.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-NO.mov

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Hannity-Colmes-Smith-Rivera-freak-in-NO.wmv

[Skirmisher]

New York Times Editorial

United States of Shame <-----Link to Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/opinion/03dowd.html?oref=login)


September 3, 2005
By MAUREEN DOWD

Stuff happens.

And when you combine limited government with incompetent government, lethal stuff happens.

America is once more plunged into a snake pit of anarchy, death, looting, raping, marauding thugs, suffering innocents, a shattered infrastructure, a gutted police force, insufficient troop levels and criminally negligent government planning. But this time it's happening in America.

W. drove his budget-cutting Chevy to the levee, and it wasn't dry. Bye, bye, American lives. "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees," he told Diane Sawyer.

Shirt-sleeves rolled up, W. finally landed in Hell yesterday and chuckled about his wild boozing days in "the great city" of N'Awlins. He was clearly moved. "You know, I'm going to fly out of here in a minute," he said on the runway at the New Orleans International Airport, "but I want you to know that I'm not going to forget what I've seen." Out of the cameras' range, and avoided by W., was a convoy of thousands of sick and dying people, some sprawled on the floor or dumped on baggage carousels at a makeshift M*A*S*H unit inside the terminal.

Why does this self-styled "can do" president always lapse into such lame "who could have known?" excuses.

Who on earth could have known that Osama bin Laden wanted to attack us by flying planes into buildings? Any official who bothered to read the trellis of pre-9/11 intelligence briefs.

Who on earth could have known that an American invasion of Iraq would spawn a brutal insurgency, terrorist recruiting boom and possible civil war? Any official who bothered to read the C.I.A.'s prewar reports.

Who on earth could have known that New Orleans's sinking levees were at risk from a strong hurricane? Anybody who bothered to read the endless warnings over the years about the Big Easy's uneasy fishbowl.

In June 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, fretted to The Times-Picayune in New Orleans: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Not only was the money depleted by the Bush folly in Iraq; 30 percent of the National Guard and about half its equipment are in Iraq.

Ron Fournier of The Associated Press reported that the Army Corps of Engineers asked for $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans last year. The White House carved it to about $40 million. But President Bush and Congress agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-filled highway bill with 6,000 pet projects, including a $231 million bridge for a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.

Just last year, Federal Emergency Management Agency officials practiced how they would respond to a fake hurricane that caused floods and stranded New Orleans residents. Imagine the feeble FEMA's response to Katrina if they had not prepared.

Michael Brown, the blithering idiot in charge of FEMA - a job he trained for by running something called the International Arabian Horse Association - admitted he didn't know until Thursday that there were 15,000 desperate, dehydrated, hungry, angry, dying victims of Katrina in the New Orleans Convention Center.

Was he sacked instantly? No, our tone-deaf president hailed him in Mobile, Ala., yesterday: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

It would be one thing if President Bush and his inner circle - Dick Cheney was vacationing in Wyoming; Condi Rice was shoe shopping at Ferragamo's on Fifth Avenue and attended "Spamalot" before bloggers chased her back to Washington; and Andy Card was off in Maine - lacked empathy but could get the job done. But it is a chilling lack of empathy combined with a stunning lack of efficiency that could make this administration implode.

When the president and vice president rashly shook off our allies and our respect for international law to pursue a war built on lies, when they sanctioned torture, they shook the faith of the world in American ideals.

When they were deaf for so long to the horrific misery and cries for help of the victims in New Orleans - most of them poor and black, like those stuck at the back of the evacuation line yesterday while 700 guests and employees of the Hyatt Hotel were bused out first - they shook the faith of all Americans in American ideals. And made us ashamed.

Who are we if we can't take care of our own?

E-mail: liberties@nytimes.com

[CrystalTears]

That's how they report the news? "Blithering idiot in charge", "tone deaf president"? Nice and biased. :rolleyes:

[Warriorbird]

It's an editorial.

[Skirmisher]

Wow WB, Smith and Rivera were not pulling punches.

That's a pretty powerful video clip.

[HarmNone]

Michael Brown, the blithering idiot in charge of FEMA - a job he trained for by running something called the International Arabian Horse Association - admitted he didn't know until Thursday that there were 15,000 desperate, dehydrated, hungry, angry, dying victims of Katrina in the New Orleans Convention Center.

If that's true, he had to have had his head buried pretty deep up his ass. I'd wager 2/3 of the country was well aware those people were in there. It's horrifying to think that the head of FEMA didn't know.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
If that's true...

CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/)

Raven

[HarmNone]

Ish. I thought I'd read all the articles on CNN regarding this mess. I missed that one. I almost feel fortunate to have missed it. I cannot for the life of me imagine how he managed to avoid knowing (because he must have worked pretty damned hard at NOT knowing!).

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Wow WB, Smith and Rivera were not pulling punches.

That's a pretty powerful video clip.

No kidding! Those two were kicking ass without bothering to take names. Can't say I blame them. In fact, I've got to hand it to them for being as obviously angry, and despairing, as both of them were.

Since in another thread we decided to bring up facts, and peoples lack of using them.

I found it interesting how many people went off the cuff about the Army Corps of Engineers, and the Levi system down there. I found this little tidbit from the Chicago Tribune interesting. And a good read for the people blaming the administration, just to see where this problem stems from, and how far back it goes.


[/quote]
"The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday that a lack of funding for hurricane-protection projects around New Orleans did not contribute to the disastrous flooding that followed Hurricane Katrina.
In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave way--inundating much of the city--were completed and in good condition before the hurricane.

However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and couldn't handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, which was a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made decades ago based on a cost-benefit analysis.

"I don't see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case," said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. "Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place."

Strock also denied that escalating costs from the war in Iraq contributed to reductions in funding for hurricane projects in Louisiana, as some critics have suggested. Records show that corps funding for the Louisiana projects has generally decreased in recent years.

Several critics, including a former head of the Corps of Engineers, suggested in a Tribune story Thursday that the flooding in New Orleans could have been less severe had the federal government fully funded projects to improve the levees and drainage in the city.

Congress in 1999 authorized the corps to conduct a $12 million study to determine how much it would cost to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane, but the study isn't scheduled to get under way until 2006. It was not clear why the study has taken so long to begin, though Congress has only provided in the range of $100,000 or $200,000 a year so far." -- The Chicago Tribune
[/quote]

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Dave]

[Back]

Anyone else see Celine Dion freak out on Larry King Live? Gawd. Drama.

[Skirmisher]

Nice spamming Dave.

? spamming WTF?

oh i double posted OMG let me fix it before it fills the page!!!111

[Skirmisher]

I was referring to your posting the same article in two threads, but thanks for cleaning that up also.

the quote was the same but my comments we're not. try agian.

Since we have not been on topic for a long time...


Seeing this made me very happy.

DOHA (AFP) - The Gulf emirate of Qatar announced it will donate 100 million dollars to relief efforts for the US victims of Hurricane Katrina. The aid was granted by Qatar's emir, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani "in the name of the government and the Qatari people," the official news agency QNA said. Quoting a foreign ministry spokesman, QNA said: "Qatar expresses its sympathy and its solidarity to the US people and government in these painful circumstances and sends its condolences to the families of the victims in this humanitarian catastrophe."

Three other Arab countries -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates -- have also offered aid to the United States.





:clap:

[Warriorbird]

http://www.ieminc.com/Whats_New/Press_Releases/pressrelease060304_Catastrophic.htm

[CrystalTears]

Here's some information on how there was preparations involved before the hurricane hit in LA, which is why FEMA was able to be there so quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina


On August 27, after Katrina crossed southern Florida and strengthened to Category 3, the President declared a state of emergency in Louisiana, two days before the hurricane made landfall. [4] (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html) This declaration activated efforts by Federal Emergency Management Agency to position stockpiles of food, water and medical supplies throughout Louisiana and Mississippi more than a day before Katrina made landfall.

Just posting it because I was concerned why people were saying that the government did nothing before the hurricane, when he clearly did. Perhaps he could have done more. People can always do more to prepare. However he didn't do nothing.

[Warriorbird]

"It was not until Friday that the military arrived in New Orleans in sufficient numbers to ease the suffering of the storm survivors."

I think that's more what people were getting at.

"Media reports have also criticized the fact that National Guard units are short staffed in Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama because they are currently on a tour of duty in Iraq, including 3,000 members of the Louisiana National Guard's 256th Brigade.[46] The failure to immediately evacuate or re-supply New Orleans area hospitals, and the lack of a visible FEMA presence in the city and surrounding area as raised concerns in the press.

The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back in the spring of 2005 with the steepest reduction in hurricane and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project was reduced to $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million. [47] The money would have gone into funding studies about the feasibility of upgrading the current levees to withstand Category 4 and 5 Hurricanes instead of just Category 3."

From the same entry.

Considering the 90 million to IEM... it's more interesting.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Warriorbird]

Dallas Morning News

As a federal official in a neatly pressed suit talked to reporters in Washington about "little bumps along the road" in emergency efforts, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin issued an urgent SOS. The situation near the convention center was chaotic; not enough buses were available to evacuate thousands of survivors, and the streets were littered with the dead.

Moments later, President Bush took center stage and talked at length about the intricacies of energy policy and plans to keep prices stable. Meanwhile, doctors at hospitals called the Associated Press asking to get their urgent message out: We need to be evacuated, we're taking sniper fire, and nobody is in charge.

Who is in charge?

Losing New Orleans to a natural disaster is one thing, but losing her to hopeless gunmen and a shameful lack of response is unfathomable. How is it that the U.S. military can conquer a foreign country in a matter of days, but can't stop terrorists controlling the streets of America or even drop a case of water to desperate and dying Americans?

President Bush, please see what's happening. The American people want to believe the government is doing everything it can do -- not to rebuild or to stabilize gas prices -- just to restore the most basic order. So far, they are hearing about Herculean efforts, but they aren't seeing them.

***

The Washington Times

Troops are finally moving into New Orleans in realistic numbers, and it's past time. What took the government so long? The thin veneer separating civilization and chaos, which we earlier worried might collapse in the absence of swift action, has collapsed.

We expected to see, many hours ago, the president we saw standing atop the ruin of the World Trade Center, rallying a dazed country to action. We're pleased he finally caught a ride home from his vacation, but he risks losing the one trait his critics have never dented: His ability to lead, and be seen leading.

He returns to the scene of the horror today, and that's all to the good. His presence will rally broken spirits. But he must crack heads, if bureaucratic heads need cracking, to get the food, water and medicine to the people crying for help in New Orleans and on the Mississippi coast. The list of things he has promised is a good list, but there is no time to dally, whether by land, sea or air. We should have delivered them yesterday. Americans are dying.

[CrystalTears]

Fine. It was Bush's fault. :shrug: I give up.

[Warriorbird]

Philadelphia Inquirer (and other Knight Ridder papers)

"I hope people don't point -- play politics during this period." That was President Bush's response yesterday to criticism of the U.S. government's inexplicably inadequate relief efforts following Hurricane Katrina.

Sorry, Mr. President, legitimate questions are being asked about the lack of rescue personnel, equipment, food, supplies, transportation, you name it, four days after the storm. It's not "playing politics" to ask why.
It's not "playing politics" to ask questions about what Americans watched in horror on TV yesterday: elderly people literally dying on the street outside the New Orleans convention center because they were sick and no one came to their aid.

The rest of America can't fathom why a country with our resources can't be at least as effective in this emergency as it was when past disasters struck Third World nations. Someone needs to explain why well-known emergency aid lessons aren't being applied here.

This hurricane is no one's fault; the devastation would be hard to handle no matter who was in charge. But human deeds can mitigate a disaster, or make it worse.

For example: Did federal priorities in an era of huge tax cuts shortchange New Orleans' storm protection and leave it more vulnerable? This flooding is no surprise to experts. They've been warning for more than 20 years that the levees keeping Lake Pontchartrain from emptying into the under-sea-level city would likely break under the strain of a Category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a Category 4.

So the Crescent City sits under water, much of its population in a state of desperate, dangerous transience, not knowing when they will return home. They're the lucky ones, though. Worse off are those left among the dying in a dying town.

The questions aren't about politics. They are about justice.

***

Minneapolis Star Tribune

But whatever the final toll, the wrenching misery and trauma confronting the people of New Orleans is much greater than it should be -- as it is, in fact, for tens of thousands of people along the strip of Mississippi that was most brutally assaulted by the storm. The immediate goal must be to ease that suffering. The second goal must be to understand how we came to this sorry situation.

How do you justify cutting $250 million in scheduled spending for crucial pump and levee work in the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project (SELA), authorized by Congress in 1995?

How do you explain the almost total lack of coordination among federal, state and local officials both in Louisiana and Mississippi? No one appeared in charge.

***

Des Moines Register

The devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina was the first practical test of the new homeland-security arrangements and the second test of President Bush in the face of a national crisis.

The performance of both has been less than stellar so far.

Katrina was a disaster that came with at least two days of warning, and it has been more than four days since the storm struck. Yet on Thursday, refugees still huddled unrescued in the unspeakable misery of the New Orleans Superdome. Patients in hospitals without power and water clung to life in third-world conditions. Untold tragedies lie yet to be discovered in the rural lowlands of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.

[Warriorbird]

I'm not saying it was Bush's fault. Some other folks are, however, even some very conservative folks. I think if anything Congress ought to be feeling pretty guilty right now... all parts of it. I do think suggesting we were well prepared is a fallacy, however.

I was also giving some perspective for that New York Times editorial.

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Warriorbird]

[CrystalTears]

And all I'm saying is that there has never been [to my knowledge] (and I'm sure you'll find the information to back that up) where ANY hurricane was WELL prepared for beforehand. Especially not in a poor area like New Orleans. I don't think I ever implied that the efforts were good enough. I think even Bush has admitted that they weren't enough. It's NEVER enough for hurricanes! But to say he did nothing was my contention.

But I honestly can't debate this well because I'm too emotionally involved as I spent my entire life living through hurricanes.

[Edited on 9/4/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Warriorbird]

I'm not sure you've had as much recent exposure as some folks. I certainly haven't compared to Florida recently, but there's fairly well developed plans in place in North Carolina, for example.

Much of NO is probably poorer than Florida, however.

I think the issue is that a lot of these folks haven't been living through this. In an area like NO there needed to be greater preparations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding_for_hurricane_preparedness_of_New_Orleans


[Edited on 9-4-2005 by Warriorbird]

Im stating to see more and more blame in the lap of this mayer of N.O. and the local government. He fucked up, and big, and is trying to A) cover his ass, or B) feels so bad about it he dosent want to take the blame that is obviously his

[ElanthianSiren]

What would you have had him do? Alert the feds that NO needed help? I think he did just that, before the hurricane hit.

-M

edit: I would have had him alert feds, but I would have also had him stay in his own city. Skirm mentioned this in another thread. She and I have both gained respect for the mayor of new york because of his reaction during a disaster. I agree that morale is important.

[Edited on Sun, September th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Apotheosis]

Now that so many countries are offering aid $$$ to the United States, who is going to be watching how the funds are spent?

Are contractors going to be awarded based on who they know?

Are the funds all going to go to the peolpe who need it the most, the people who've lost their homes and jobs? Or will it filter to those who DON'T need it, much like what happens when millions of dollars go to Third World Dictators, vs. their citizens?

[Back]

How much you want to bet Halliburton gets a contract out of this?

[Parkbandit]

Clearly George W is behind the power of the hurricane. Clearly he forced it to wipe out New Orleans JUST so Dick's friends and Haliburton can make money off the destruction and rebuilding.

The guy's a fucking genius.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Clearly George W is behind the power of the hurricane. Clearly he forced it to wipe out New Orleans JUST so Dick's friends and Haliburton can make money off the destruction and rebuilding.

The guy's a fucking genius.

And here I thought it was a plot by the leftist environmental vegans to make the president look bad because they were pissed about losing the election. Huh.

[Jolena]

Honestly it shouldn't be about politics, whether Democratic or Republican. I think that majority of the American public's issue is with the horrifying conditions of the hospitals, the lack of knowledge that the head of FEMA has, the unfathomable amount of time that those in the Superdome had to spend before having food and water at least dropped down to them, and the length of time that the looters were allowed to roam the street shooting, raping, pillaging and destroying what was left of the city for those left behind to live in.

As far as preparations beforehand, I never thought that they did "nothing" but I do think that they could have prepared with more supplies of food, water and medical supplies as well as having a central means of communication set up between agencies so that someone was in charge rather then everyone bumping heads due to lack of communication.

[Apotheosis]

The point that I am trying to make is this: There is going to be a rebuilding. Watch to see who controls the money that goes into it.

Originally posted by Backlash
How much you want to bet Halliburton gets a contract out of this?

They are the biggest and the best for the job, I hope they get the contract because we know they will do it right.

[Back]

Yeah, great job they do overstating costs to rape the American taxpayers to line their own pockets.

[Detri]

Did anyone see the president of Jefferson Parish or whatever break down on MSNBC? That was sad as hell... :sniffle:

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Detri
Did anyone see the president of Jefferson Parish or whatever break down on MSNBC? That was sad as hell... :sniffle:

I did, hon. You're right. It was awful to see such anguish. Anyone who could watch that and NOT cry must have a stone for a heart. :(

[Rainy Day]

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
What would you have had him do? Alert the feds that NO needed help? I think he did just that, before the hurricane hit.

-M

edit: I would have had him alert feds, but I would have also had him stay in his own city. Skirm mentioned this in another thread. She and I have both gained respect for the mayor of new york because of his reaction during a disaster. I agree that morale is important.

[Edited on Sun, September th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

I think the mayor messed up on a couple key points. I hate to say that because I wouldn't want to be in his shoes for anything and he's probably just hanging together by a thread.

They already know the makeup of the city and they know they are vulnerable to hurricanes. There should have been evacuation plans in place to deal with those in poverty, and also the elderly and infirm. You can't just tell your city it's mandatory to evacuate and leave it at that figuring your job is done. Not when you know starting out that many people don't have the means to follow the order.

Following that, if you can't evacuate everyone, then you have to provide people with a safe haven they can get to. The Superdome was a good idea on the surface, but they never did anything to prepare it as a place to evacuate to. No food, water, or sanitary facilities were laid in. Imagine how much better it could have been if they had had truckloads of portajohns and bottled water waiting.

RD

[xtc]

Canada pledged its suport the day after Katrina hit. We have sent 4 military ships to help. We have sent supplies and we have increased our oil output to America.

Canadian charities are raising money for the victims as well.

Frank Stronach CEO of Magna Industries has been airlifting victims of Katrina to safety. He also is building mobile homes on 1000 acres to house victims.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2005/09/07/1204949-sun.html

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-pstronach09sep09,0,1887087.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

A lemon aid stand in Canada raised $1700 for the victims of Katrina.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/story.html?id=565b9dbe-5c91-4e52-bc77-2b1040d44726

Canadians of all colour, creed, and stripe are offer organised and individual aid.

CTV news reported that China and Mexico have offer aid.

[xtc]

It seems even Cuba has offered aid but it was rejected. I guess the people in New Orleans don't need Cuban doctors helping them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9311876/

[Sean of the Thread]

When it comes to Cuba,” said McClellan, “we have one message for Fidel Castro: He needs to offer the people of Cuba their freedom.”


/agree

Besides Cuba would be less 1600 medics forever because they would DEFECT.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Xyelin
When it comes to Cuba,” said McClellan, “we have one message for Fidel Castro: He needs to offer the people of Cuba their freedom.”


/agree

Besides Cuba would be less 1600 medics forever because they would DEFECT.

But we are accepting aid and doctors from China? China who has a higher infant mortaility rate and lower life expectation than Cuba. Following the same logic China needs its Doctor's more and its citizens are hardly free.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/china-makes-aid-offer-to-us/2005/09/03/1125302782542.html?oneclick=true

[DeV]

Mike Brown has resigned.

If it's already been mentioned... sue me.

[xtc]

Originally posted by DeV
Mike Brown has resigned.

If it's already been mentioned... sue me.

Nope breaking news, no details yet.

[Ravenstorm]

Now that he's resigned after doing such 'a heck of a job', he'll be awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Raven