Soldiers beaten outside of bar

[Jolena]

This is the link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/17/national/main563855.shtml?CMP=ILC-SearchStories ) to the video tape of the incident. Seriously sickened me. At first I thought it had to do with the war and someone's protest against it, but apparently no. Either way, it's sick.


Two soldiers, who just returned from duty in Iraq, were horribly beaten outside a bar in Seattle and someone with a video camera captured the entire incident.

Reportedly, the two men were with two women at a nightclub when the suspects in the pending case groped the two women. One of the women says she threw a hot dog at the suspects and walked away. The suspects allegedly ran after them and that's when the two soldiers got involved.

As seen in the video, the two soldiers ended up prostrate in the road, near on-coming traffic.

Police were able to get some pretty clear pictures of the suspects and are looking for anyone who knows the three wanted men to come forward with information.

There is no word on the condition of the soldiers.

[AnticorRifling]

I'm glad the guy with the camera didn't put it down and help or anything......

(insert army of one joke here)

[DeV]

I hope those fucking thugs get what's coming to them... in prison. It's also good it was caught on camera since from the looks of it no one wanted to help the two beaten guys anyway.

[AnticorRifling]

Ohh and why is this worse than anyone gettin beaten outside of a bar? I don't think them being soldiers has anything to do with it other than the media wanting to try and make it an even bigger deal.

[Skirmisher]

I'm glad the person filming didn't stop filming no matter if they were a bystander or a friend of the accused.

I see some lengthy prison terms in those cowards futures.

I'm pretty sure that corrections officers like police officers get many of their members from ex military, so lets hope these additions to the populace are well received.

[Anebriated]

I agree with Anticor. If it wasn't two members of the military this would have never been anything except a local news story.

[Leetahkin]

That's seriously messed up.
Federal charges for them - that's government property they were beating up.

Throw them in Ft. Leavenworth and let the military prisoners there get wind of why the got there; they won't have a prayer in hell of living through their time there.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Elrodin
I agree with Anticor. If it wasn't two members of the military this would have never been anything except a local news story.

I disagree.

While the two returning soldiers angle helped, it was the video that gave it legs.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I'm glad the person filming didn't stop filming no matter if they were a bystander or a friend of the accused.


I see what you are saying, but I also think that it takes a sick individual to just stand there doing nothing but filming it.

That they are soldiers is irrelevant.

[Anebriated]

So the camera guy would could have had his collar unpopped in the fight. People can be cowards when it comes down to it. I still dont see how this is different from any other barfight or fight over women with the exception of the camera.

[Jolena]

I'm not quite sure that the video tape was done by someone but perhaps they have surveilance on streets like we do here. Who knows however.

And yes, I agree with Dev. The soldiers angle is what the media used to hype it up, but it would have gotten coverage by the video tape alone.

I think the most disturbing thing to me was all the cars and other folks passing by, standing there, walking past, and not one person tried to help. Ah well, don't know why it surprises me how evil and shitty people can be. I should just accept it.

[Sean of the Thread]

Sometimes there isn't anything you can do other than call the po'po's real fast. Anyone getting involved in that fight that wasn't from their clique would have ended up in the road as well.

If I had witnessed the situation I would have called the po'po's but as soon as that guy started stomping on that guys head I would have straight up shot him in the chest.

[Jolena]

Yeah and you know what's the most insane part? When that guy was stomping (and it WAS multiple times if you watch the tape), the dude didn't even flinch as the foot came down on his head. He was out cold and didn't feel it. And I was wondering, did they take his shoes?! I saw them lifting his leg up and tugging at a shoe. Looked like he took his wallet out and tossed it too or something.

Welcome to the world of fighting, it happens, sucks but they got their ass kicked.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

[DeV]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
Ohh and why is this worse than anyone gettin beaten outside of a bar? I don't think them being soldiers has anything to do with it other than the media wanting to try and make it an even bigger deal. Agreed, which is why I didn't use the word soldiers. I would say this if it happened to anyone in the manner displayed in the video. Plus, (I assume from what the reports have said) they were standing up for two women that were groped, obviously, against their will. That is not cool at all. The fact that they were soldiers have no bearing on the justice they should receive just for being attacked so visciously.

[ElanthianSiren]

If you watch the tape, there are four men considered suspects and two vics. I'm not surprised at the outcome, at all.

Also, I'd argue that the point of fighting should be to defend yourself/others from an attack. In this case, I don't think a hotdog was a deadly weapon. Part of the outrage is that even if the men laying on the street threw the hotdog, the force was in no way proportionate, and from the article, it sounds like they only got involved to help some women lacking Tasers. Sad.

-M
edit: it, the, same word, right? Don't trade and post; I've promised myself I wouldn't so many times.

[Edited on Fri, August th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

[Anebriated]

Just thought this could be used again.


Welcome to the world of fighting, it happens, sucks but they got their ass kicked.

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
If you watch the tape, there are four men considered suspects and two vics. I'm not surprised at the outcome, at all.

Also, I'd argue that the point of fighting should be to defend yourself/others from an attack. In this case, I don't think a hotdog was a deadly weapon. Part of the outrage is that even if the men laying on the street threw the hotdog, the force was in no way proportionate, and from the article, it sounds like they only got involved to help some women lacking Tasers. Sad.

-M
edit: it, the, same word, right? Don't trade and post; I've promised myself I wouldn't so many times.

[Edited on Fri, August th, 2005 by ElanthianSiren]

Look ive been in fights where it was me against two guys and kicked their asses in a similar manner, Ive also been in fights where it was two guys against four, and by the end the four of us were on the dudes laying on the ground getting our heads stomped.

Shit happens, it was a bar fight, nothing OMG about it. People live too protected lives, you shouldent appalled by something like this happening, it happens every weekend 100 times over if not every day. Go to a few hole in the wall bars, it happens every night.

They are military guys going to Seattle to drink, half the time we go down there somebody gets into a fight, we roll about 10-15 deep when we go now though so its not a uber big deal, most of the time it just gets broken up, other times somebody gets their ass kicked. That's the way fights go.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

Blame it on the dumb chick who threw the hotdog, Women are the cause of a lot of these type of things. (granted the idiot who grabbed her ass is at fualt to so dont get on my balls about it)
<note drunk guys will hit women, ive seen it more than enough to be sure of it.>

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

[Jolena]

You know what, this isn't a pissing contest. I don't care how often you and your military buddies go out and drink and act ignorant and get into fights. I'm not saying that you shouldn't defend yourself and hell if you personally enjoy having your ass handed to you or think it's 'cool' to beat someone elses ass, so be it. Your life, not mine.

What I am commenting on is that this to me is just sickening. They stomped on the guys head. There is a difference between duking it out and knocking a man unconscious then STOMPING on his FRICKEN HEAD. It may be the norm for bar fights, I wouldn't know, i don't tend to hang out at 'hole in the wall bars' nor do I try to engage in fights. However, bar fight or not, stomping on a mans head repeatedly as he lays prone in the street obviously unconscious IS omg sick. Take it how you want it.

Edited to add you're a fucking moron for saying that the woman throwing the hot dog brought this on the men. Fucking idiot. I'm glad you're not a father. I'd feel sorry for your child.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Jolena]

You have never been in a fight Jolena, your not thinking about things like that. You fight to win.

[ElanthianSiren]

Why shouldn't I be appalled? I am appalled that it happens every day, in honesty.

-M

Some women like to talk trash when they think somebody is there who will defend them. One of these days Ill just sit back and let women handle the shit that they started.

Some women like to talk trash when they think somebody is there who will defend them. One of these days Ill just sit back and let women handle the shit that they started.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Dave
You have never been in a fight Jolena, your not thinking about things like that. You fight to win.

Subdual is winning, Dave.

-M

[Jolena]

Originally posted by Dave
You have never been in a fight Jolena, your not thinking about things like that. You fight to win.

Yes you should fight to win. But tell me, the man is laying on the concrete, NOT MOVING, obviously UNCONSCIOUS and yet he's a threat to you and you haven't won? mmhmm. Sure.

Edited to add, don't assume I've never been in a fight. I've had my share. I just don't go out looking for them and I have grown up some so I don't frequent 'hole in the wall bars' where I know some seedy type character is going to try to start dumb shit over nothing.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Jolena]

[AnticorRifling]

It's not about winning. If he can't get up he can't hurt me, I'd make sure he's not just stunned. Granted head shots are killing blows and I don't think I'd be willing to kill in that situation but I would continue to strike him when he's on the ground not moving.

I could give you the three steps to a fight as we are taught but I'm sure in you're "I R pissed off at Dave and going to say he's a bad father because that has something to do with fighting!!!1" mood you don't want to hear it.

[ElanthianSiren]

No Anticor, I'm curious. What are you taught as conflict management in the military?


-M

[Jolena]

I'm not saying Dave would be a bad father because of his desire to fight, it does really bother me that he would say it's the woman's fault though. What kind of example and values would he teach his daughter in that situation? Let a man grope you because if you respond it's your fault and you get the shit beat out of you so just deal with it. wtf ever.

Also, I'm curious as well as to your 3 steps Anticor. My issue with dave is mainly due to the fact that he assumes it's the woman's fault.

[DeV]

I could care less about the win-lose attitude of being in a fight. Haven't we all been there, with a brother-sister-cousin-friend-someone in the street-someone we didn't like, yada yada yada? Yeah, I'm sure we have.

However the police usually don't waste their time looking for people who haven't committed a crime, unless you work fast food and live in Ohio that is.

[AnticorRifling]

No, but I have seen woman instigate situations because they know the man will step in. Hell my wife does it because she knows that I have an obligation to not let her catch an ass whoopin (not that any conflict she's ever had me handle has been close to a physical altercation).

A fight is simple:

Create as much pain as possible (breaking bones, joints, etc)

Get them on the ground.

Stomp their skull in. Or as we call it squish the grape. You use the killing edge of your boot heal just above the nose.

Three step fight.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Jolena
My issue with dave is mainly due to the fact that he assumes it's the woman's fault.

But your view of assuming it's the guy's fault is good to go?

I wasn't there and I won't pass judgement. You both have but for different sides. OMG you're a bad mom if you have a son because it's the animal with the PPs fault. Pot meet kettle I hope you both like the cabinet.

[CrystalTears]

If you guys want to beat each other up over the slightest implication, fine, fuck each other up until you can't stand up anymore. I'll never understand fights like that though.

Although it doesn't surprise me that Dave would say something as insensitive and assholish as to say that it was the woman's fault. So because she got groped and threw a hot dog at them is reason enough to kill each other over it? It's over the top, and then to come back that "you don't fight, you don't understand". Yeah well maybe I don't understand mindless fighting since the issue isn't important enough to get heated up about in the first place.

Maybe I'll ask Anticor where the joy is in beating up a guy over someone standing up for being a dick to someone else, because I really don't want Dave's interpretation.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
People live too protected lives, you shouldent appalled by something like this happening, it happens every weekend 100 times over if not every day. And you haven't said anything new. No epiphanies going on over here. There is nothing apalling about it besides the fact that some thugs beat some guys ass and are now wanted by the cops. I hope they have fun in jail.

[Jolena]

I don't personally have a view point on who's fault it is and have not stated as much either. My whole perspective was that stomping in someone's head is just sickening. If you will go back and reread you'll notice I never said who's fault it was nor did I pass judgement on anything but the stomping on the head issue.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah I don't really care about the fault either. Dave brought it up and felt the need to go there. The fact that these guys felt it was perfectly acceptable to beat the head in of a guy in this situation is what bothers me.

[DeV]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
No, but I have seen woman instigate situations because they know the man will step in. I have a word for women who do dumb shit like that.

And the article said nothing to that affect and coming from someone who can spot a thug a mile away, looked like business as usual for them.

[AnticorRifling]

Maybe I'll ask Anticor where the joy is in beating up a guy over someone standing up for being a dick to someone else, because I really don't want Dave's interpretation.

I don't know if it's as simple as that... If the guy in his standing up said some really wrong things about my mother, or started throwing blows then there might be cause to toss him an asswhoopin.

I really don't know because 1) I'm not them, 2) I wasn't there, 3) Even though I do enjoy the occassional scuffle violence is generally not a first tier response from me.

[cajunlady]

Alcohol creates assholes with bad judgement.

Edited to reword:
Too much alcohol in an assholes hands usually ends up in bad judgement.




[Edited on 8-26-2005 by cajunlady]

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by cajunlady]

[Sean of the Thread]

This wasn't too much of a fight to begin with. My guess is the soldiers were extremly intoxicated and the other dudes really were not. Looks like just some jibber jabber then a couple sucker punches.

They fucked up in this confrontation because they should have decided
A) We're not going to fight or be able to win this fight and FLEE.
B) Put on our shit kickers and do it right. Ie.. immediatly disable the closest threat and quickly move to the next without ANY talk/song or dance.

If not B then see A.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Xyelin]

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by cajunlady
Alcohol creates assholes with bad judgement.

Edited to reword:
Too much alcohol in an assholes hands usually ends up in bad judgement.



Wrong. Alcohol creates pregnant teenagers.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Xyelin
This wasn't too much of a fight to begin with. My guess is the soldiers were extremly intoxicated and the other dudes really were not. Looks like just some jibber jabber then a couple sucker punches.

They fucked up in this confrontation because they should have decided
A) We're not going to fight or be able to win this fight and FLEE.
B) Put on our shit kickers and do it right. Ie.. immediatly disable the closest threat and quickly move to the next without ANY talk/song or dance.

If not B then see A.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Xyelin]

Wow, that made no sense to me. I must be drunk. :lol:

[Anebriated]

"Alcohol. The cause of, and solution to all of lifes problems." - Homer J. Simpson

[Doyle Hargraves]

I'm not saying Dave would be a bad father because of his desire to fight, it does really bother me that he would say it's the woman's fault though. What kind of example and values would he teach his daughter in that situation? Let a man grope you because if you respond it's your fault and you get the shit beat out of you so just deal with it. wtf ever.

She could have tried walking away instead of throwing hot dogs. That wouldn't necessarily solve the problem, but there's probably a decent chance it would have.

But yeah, stomping some KO'ed guy's head is a little bit overboard. I mean come on, if the guy's unconscious, you don't stomp his head in. You climb onto the roof of the nearest vehicle, do a little dance and drop a flying elbow on him.

You'll get a much better pop from the crowd that way.

[Sean of the Thread]

Or the tried and tested "Urinate on the unconscience victims face" or if you are really serious drag their unconscience body to the curb and give em a good ole' curb stomping..

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Doyle Hargraves
But yeah, stomping some KO'ed guy's head is a little bit overboard. I mean come on, if the guy's unconscious, you don't stomp his head in. You climb onto the roof of the nearest vehicle, do a little dance and drop a flying elbow on him.

You'll get a much better pop from the crowd that way.

Some of you men have made me officially scared of you because of this thread. :lol:

[Kenn]

Originally posted by cajunlady
Alcohol creates assholes with bad judgement.

Your equation is missing some things.

alcohol + testosterone + adrenaline = asshole with bad judgement

Going back to the head stomping... I'm not condoning anything, but in a fight you get all worked up. If you feel wronged especially, your only concern is to pound the other person into the ground. But I will say (from personal experience) any incident involving a soldier is automatically newsworthy. If this had just been two normal people fighting, even on tape, it wouldn't have made it outside of Seattle. Shit like that happens ALL the time, even on tape. I've seen a bunch, the news never gets out of California.

But yeah, those people that didn't help, especially that big mother fucker that walked in front of the camera should have their balls cut off because they obviously aren't using them.

[xtc]

This is just another Friday night brawl outside a bar. It happens in every city, every Friday...period end of story.

[Anebriated]

This is just another Friday night brawl outside a bar. It happens in every city, every Friday...period end of story.

This was my original thinking as I am in Philly and shit happens in every major city. Then I remembered that alot of people live sheltered in small towns and out of the way areas that dont get much of this. In West Chester where I grew up very little of this happened. The worst we really had was the whole Jackass crew, and they arent that bad.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by xtc
This is just another Friday night brawl outside a bar. It happens in every city, every Friday...period end of story.

So I guess it makes it a-ok then. Alrighty.

[Viridian]

Originally posted by Dave
Some women like to talk trash when they think somebody is there who will defend them. One of these days Ill just sit back and let women handle the shit that they started.

Right, because no woman should ever stop a man from groping them against their will. Personally if someone did it to me I'd use my purse (weighted down with all sorts of useless junk.) and smack them with it, not throw some hot dog. The soldiers acted out of concern for what was happening, its sad that they got the crap beat out of them for it. That isn't fair...but as they say no good deed, goes unpunished.

[xtc]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by xtc
This is just another Friday night brawl outside a bar. It happens in every city, every Friday...period end of story.

So I guess it makes it a-ok then. Alrighty.

No, it just makes it no different from the 1000's of brawls that happen each Friday night, unreported.

[Skirmisher]

The guy was not stomping his face out of a sense of need or fear that he would get up.

This was not a fight to protect themselves.

This was a group of thugs showing how tough they were.

This is not something that happens outside of EVERY bar and anyone who says how this is just how things are are kind of sad in my opinion.

We are not animals living without rules and without any self discipline. I have seen my friends and my brother for that matter walk away from fights because they were over stupid things, and I have seen them not back down when they were defending someone else even though they were outnumbered.

There is a time to fight and then there is a time to stop. That fight in the video was over long before we saw anything and the abuse happening afterwards told me all I needed to know about the winners.

Is it THE worst crime of the week? No, But it's still a crime and I hope those pathetic individuals get every bit of pain in jail possible.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Viridian
Right, because no woman should ever stop a man from groping them against their will. Personally if someone did it to me I'd use my purse (weighted down with all sorts of useless junk.) and smack them with it, not throw some hot dog. The soldiers acted out of concern for what was happening, its sad that they got the crap beat out of them for it. That isn't fair...but as they say no good deed, goes unpunished.

Just ignore Dave, he is an idiot.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
The guy was not stomping his face out of a sense of need or fear that he would get up.

This was not a fight to protect themselves.

This was a group of thugs showing how tough they were.

This is not something that happens outside of EVERY bar and anyone who says how this is just how things are are kind of sad in my opinion.

We are not animals living without rules and without any self discipline. I have seen my friends and my brother for that matter walk away from fights because they were over stupid things, and I have seen them not back down when they were defending someone else even though they were outnumbered.

There is a time to fight and then there is a time to stop. That fight in the video was over long before we saw anything and the abuse happening afterwards told me all I needed to know about the winners.

Is it THE worst crime of the week? No, But it's still a crime and I hope those pathetic individuals get every bit of pain in jail possible.

I hate to inform you but it does happen every Friday.

When I was younger and a bit of a tear-away fighting was recreation to me. Yes people stomp on other people long after the fight is over. Yes some people are animals, no not the whole human race but segments of it. When I younger it happened to me, it may have started out as a fight but in the end if I was out numbered, it was blatant abuse. I have been kicked, punched, jumped on, hit in the head with a rock, pushed through a glass window, and people have tried to drown me. It is a sad comment on society and I agree that these people should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Unfortunately though it isn't uncommon.

[Skirmisher]

I am aware that beatings occur every day XTC, I am not so sheltered as to believe otherwise.

I also have been to more than one or two bars myself and did not see a fight in EVRY bar EVERY night. My point is that they are tolerated more at some locations and are thus much more likely to occur and that both the fighters and the bar should be penalized. Why in heavens name should anyone who lives near there have to put up with that kind of barbarism?

Bad things happen, I know that but that doesn't mean I or anyone should lose my sense of disgust for such behavior.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I am aware that beatings occur every day XTC, I am not so sheltered as to believe otherwise.

I also have been to more than one or two bars myself and did not see a fight in EVRY bar EVERY night. My point is that they are tolerated more at some locations and are thus much more likely to occur and that both the fighters and the bar should be penalized. Why in heavens name should anyone who lives near there have to put up with that kind of barbarism?

Bad things happen, I know that but that doesn't mean I or anyone should lose my sense of disgust for such behavior.

It doesn't happen in every bar, every Friday but it happens in every city, every Friday.

Some bars are locations in a city are more prone to it than others.

It shouldn't be tolerated.

My only point was this instance was no different from the ones that occur every Friday night.

[DeV]

Name one person in this thread that said it was an uncommon occurance...


Totally agree with you Skirm. They are thugs and that is the way they would behave not only in a night club but also on the street corner and in their own back yard and the backyard of others simply because they have the "don't give a fuck" attitude. The same idiots that get profiled by the police and cry racism when they are found to have been doing wrong anyway.

Bravo to them them for kicking a man when he's down and out, literally. Those are some real men there. :rolleyes:

[4a6c1]

I think they should feel lucky all that happened to them was that they got humiliated and beat badly. From the video it was obvious to me that the mob mentality was prepared to do worse if they hadnt stayed on the ground and played like they were dead already.

[Anebriated]

Why in heavens name should anyone who lives near there have to put up with that kind of barbarism?

They dont, thats why they dont have to go to those bars.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Elrodin]

The woman shouldn't have thrown the hot dog. A lot of guys will defend women, I know I am a guy. Women do shit like that because they don't have to suffer the repercussions for their actions. Fuck if that was me and there were a bunch of thugs like that, my ass would be out of there and quick, I'm not stupid. As anticor said women instigate fights knowing that they will be protected.

The blame likes in the men with no respect for women that they grabbed a womans whatever. What elevated the situation was the women throwing food at the guy, they could have just left.

[Wuxong]

besides nothing against the military friends and family i have but some of those kids are pricks.. military doesnt make you a good person .. beinmg a good person does duh.. and everyone is write if they had been to random guys it wouldnt have mattered.. and lets say one of the two that jumped in had an old assault charge or something.. then it would be two randow heros and not two random jerks beat someone up..

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Elrodin

They dont, thats why they dont have to go to those bars.
[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Elrodin]

I agree that those who patronize such establishments knowing what kind of pits they are take their own lives in their hands.

I was however speaking about those who happen to LIVE near a place like that. They need to bring every bit of pressure to bear they can to have those facilities lose their alcohol license at least and be outright
closed at best.

OR not live near places like that. That works too.

[Anebriated]

Lots of people join the military as an alternative to school because of being incompatible with society. Even a poster from here joined because of a rough history in his hometown and said that if he didnt get out he would have basically been a thug for life. When these individuals get out who is to say they are all changed?

[Jolena]

OR not live near places like that. That works too.

:rolleyes:



[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Jolena]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
The blame likes in the men with no respect for women that they grabbed a womans whatever. What elevated the situation was the women throwing food at the guy, they could have just left.

Yes women.

Lay back and enjoy it.

Detective Dave has spoken.

[Wuxong]

Check it out people .... check into a bar called Chilkoote Charlies in Anchorage alaska.. also kalled koots.... they have had 2 people die in less then a year.. one the bouncers beat to death and were found no responsible for.. the beat a kid in handcuffs for over 10 minutes because he was still resisiting.. resisitng on his stomach, face down , in cuffs.. then less then two weeks ago the pused two people who were fighting and arguing out their door just to have one of them go get a gun and shoot the other point blank in the head.. this happened less then 30 feet from their front door on their property.. i drove by the bar after both of these nights.. the bar was more busy on the following weekends then it was before the murders... this is not the sleezy bar in town either. they are the big bar.. they pull the live bands and outa state acts.. and that is rare for alaska... I just wanted everyone to know that this does happen everywhere... and i agree with all ealier statements that had those two not been military the stroy would have been little more then a 2 min blur.... check out for yourself about the koots things... i will go try to find the video or news reports on either even to post here as well.... make yah kinda feel sick how dumb alcohol can make people huh ...

[Makkah]

Yea it's some bitch shit... But I see shit worse than this at least once a year. Had anyone else jumped in, they woulda caught a beat down by all those people huddled around the crazy fuckers... people don't fight 1x1, 2x2, 4x4 anymore. It's some 20x3 type shit.

[Anebriated]

damn zergs

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
OR not live near places like that. That works too. OR not make comments when you have no clue what you're talking about.

One of those things in life that some can only dream of accomplishing.

[Wuxong]

I agree with the 20 on 3..... i work security work now and then and i been in some nasty bars.. we had a 9 security on 80 customer fight that started over somone breaking a bear bottle on a car.. it was insain.... the best part tho.. we were all pepper spray trained.. we were able to control the situation without and lasting physical damage.. those tazor guns they are giving people are just dumb... my point and case.. lets say you take the average bad bar bouncer.. he is a mean overkill MF... well he can empty 9 cans of pepper spray on a person and only make em hurt for a bit.. pepper spray is safe to use it just hurds bad.. its just tobaco oil and red pepper extract .... but you give that same shithead a stun gun and he will fry a person.. then you add the affects of drugs an alcohol on a person and tazor the shit outa them.. whats next giving them flamthrowers !!! Personally i always wanted one of those high preasure riot water guns.. for the bad bad time.. l

[Makkah]

<<whats next giving them flamthrowers !!!>>

I kinda like that idea...

[Wuxong]

That and once some friends and I talked about just beating people as they walk in.. then no matter what they do we do nothing.. kinda like a fuck up credit system among the worse bars... muahahahaha!

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Dave
OR not live near places like that. That works too. OR not make comments when you have no clue what you're talking about.

One of those things in life that some can only dream of accomplishing.
or not select to live near bars like that.
It is not a hard choice.

[Doyle Hargraves]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Dave
The blame likes in the men with no respect for women that they grabbed a womans whatever. What elevated the situation was the women throwing food at the guy, they could have just left.

Yes women.

Lay back and enjoy it.

Detective Dave has spoken.

I'm gonna have to agree with Detective Dave. Yes it was the thug's fault for groping the woman to begin with. It was the woman's fault for elevating the situation with her hot dog projectile.

If only she had yelled LIGHTNING BOLT when she threw it, everything would have been A-OK.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave

or not select to live near bars like that.
It is not a hard choice.

And what if a new bar opens, or one changes management Detective Dave? What then? Are they allowed to complain then?

You are just arguing now to argue but doing it poorly.

Move elsewhere.
(when your lease is up)

And no I'm not arguing to argue, You are being a bitch as usual, just because it is me posting. The world doesn't wrong people, It is not everyone elses fault, take responsibility upon yourself... Who the fuck moves in next to a bar anyways, do you seriously think that if you live next to a bar there are not going to be drunk and belligerent people around, come on.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Doyle Hargraves

I'm gonna have to agree with Detective Dave. Yes it was the thug's fault for groping the woman to begin with. It was the woman's fault for elevating the situation with her hot dog projectile.



And you were doing so well in the underlined section and had to blow it by continuing at all.

The guys were wrong. Done. End.

[4a6c1]

The woman should have thrown a punch, not a hotdog. Kinda dumb.

OMFG so don't expect to get your ass kicked when you throw a hot dog in somebodies face who can CLEARLY BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU AND APPEARS TO BE MORE THAN WILLING TO.

Passing the blame as usual.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
Move elsewhere.
(when your lease is up)

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

Just when I think you have reached the limit for studity that one person can achieve you reach deep down inside and smash yet another barrier.

[Jolena]

How about don't expect to GROPE A WOMAN WITHOUT HER CONSENT IN A PUBLIC AREA WITH OTHER FOLKS STANDING AROUND WITHOUT HAVING SOMEONE STEP UP AND SAY 'HEY FUCKWAD STOP THAT SHIT'.


Oh and also, ever considered Dave, that perhaps they lived there before the bar was put in, and owned their home? And that they are maybe oh I don't know, elderly, retired, some shit and can't just up and move because they 'choose not to live by a bar'? How about the rights of those that lived there before the bar was put in? They have no reason or right to petition for it to be closed now? All very valid questions for you since you have stated your very blunt stance on this one with "Just move, it's not hard"

[Skirmisher]

Dave, are you being tested with some kind of aggression hypnotherapy or something?

You didnt used to be this much of a I"M GOING TO BEAT YOU UP kind of guy before.

You were just as stupid, just in a less attention grabbing manner.

Originally posted by Jolena
How about don't expect to GROPE A WOMAN WITHOUT HER CONSENT IN A PUBLIC AREA WITH OTHER FOLKS STANDING AROUND WITHOUT HAVING SOMEONE STEP UP AND SAY 'HEY FUCKWAD STOP THAT SHIT'.

Because things like what happened to the two soldiers there tend to happen. Sometimes it is best to keep your mouth shut if you dont have anything to back it up with, (as this woman should have)

[/quote]Oh and also, ever considered Dave, that perhaps they lived there before the bar was put in, and owned their home? And that they are maybe oh I don't know, elderly, retired, some shit and can't just up and move because they 'choose not to live by a bar'? How about the rights of those that lived there before the bar was put in? They have no reason or right to petition for it to be closed now? All very valid questions for you since you have stated your very blunt stance on this one with "Just move, it's not hard" [/quote]

Large cities tend not to have Homes near bars. Apartments and rentals are more often the case. On occasion you have condos, but those in large cities tend to have some form of security. The social dynamic of areas tends to change, Take Cicero, IL for example, when my father was growing up it was a nice suburb like any other that exist now a bit further away from the city. Today it is a ghetto. Things change, adapt or move elsewhere.

Not to mention this has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread, maybe you should start a new one if this issue is so important to the two of you.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Dave, are you being tested with some kind of aggression hypnotherapy or something?

You didnt used to be this much of a I"M GOING TO BEAT YOU UP kind of guy before.

You were just as stupid, just in a less attention grabbing manner.

No I'm just sick of the whiny bullshit that has become the norm.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave

Not to mention this has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread, maybe you should start a new one if this issue is so important to the two of you.

You brought it up Detective.

Just because the true ignorance of your statement may be coming to dawn upon you don't back out now.

[Viridian]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Doyle Hargraves

I'm gonna have to agree with Detective Dave. Yes it was the thug's fault for groping the woman to begin with. It was the woman's fault for elevating the situation with her hot dog projectile.



And you were doing so well in the underlined section and had to blow it by continuing at all.

The guys were wrong. Done. End.

Agreed you are going to grope someone against their will, you deserve a hot dog to the face. No one has the right to touch you against your will male or female.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I am aware that beatings occur every day XTC, I am not so sheltered as to believe otherwise.

I also have been to more than one or two bars myself and did not see a fight in EVRY bar EVERY night. My point is that they are tolerated more at some locations and are thus much more likely to occur and that both the fighters and the bar should be penalized. Why in heavens name should anyone who lives near there have to put up with that kind of barbarism?

Bad things happen, I know that but that doesn't mean I or anyone should lose my sense of disgust for such behavior.


Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Elrodin

They dont, thats why they dont have to go to those bars.
[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Elrodin]

I agree that those who patronize such establishments knowing what kind of pits they are take their own lives in their hands.

I was however speaking about those who happen to LIVE near a place like that. They need to bring every bit of pressure to bear they can to have those facilities lose their alcohol license at least and be outright
closed at best.

Yeah I really brought it up... Do you even pay attention to what you post?

Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing Skrim? :smug:

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
OR not live near places like that. That works too.

I was able to read that.

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Skirmisher
I am aware that beatings occur every day XTC, I am not so sheltered as to believe otherwise.

I also have been to more than one or two bars myself and did not see a fight in EVRY bar EVERY night. My point is that they are tolerated more at some locations and are thus much more likely to occur and that both the fighters and the bar should be penalized. Why in heavens name should anyone who lives near there have to put up with that kind of barbarism?

Bad things happen, I know that but that doesn't mean I or anyone should lose my sense of disgust for such behavior.


Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Elrodin

They dont, thats why they dont have to go to those bars.
[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Elrodin]

I agree that those who patronize such establishments knowing what kind of pits they are take their own lives in their hands.

I was however speaking about those who happen to LIVE near a place like that. They need to bring every bit of pressure to bear they can to have those facilities lose their alcohol license at least and be outright
closed at best.

Yeah I really brought it up... Do you even pay attention to what you post?

Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing Skrim? :smug:

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

And I was able to read all of that!
Amazing, shall we play the quote game some more?

Didn't Harmnone speak to you about acting like this?

[Skirmisher]

You said they could move.

I called you on yet another in a long line of stupid statements.

If calling you out on stupid statements was against TOS I would have been banned long ago.

Nothing against TOS, I dont think i said that did I.
You know exactly what I mean and what I am talking about.

And my comments stand firm and true.
Some women tend to be stupid and cause fights, this was an example of such an event. The person who grabbed her butt was not the only person at fault.

People don't have to stay living near shit hole bars. That can just as easily get up and move. Even if they are old, they are called movers, they pack your shit up for you. Poor financial planning is not an excuse.

[Viridian]

Originally posted by Dave
Nothing against TOS, I dont think i said that did I.
You know exactly what I mean and what I am talking about.

And my comments stand firm and true.
Some women tend to be stupid and cause fights, this was an example of such an event. The person who grabbed her butt was not the only person at fault.

People don't have to stay living near shit hole bars. That can just as easily get up and move. Even if they are old, they are called movers, they pack your shit up for you. Poor financial planning is not an excuse.

So, let us throw up a scenario here, say you see some idiot groping some woman against her will, she told him to stop and he didn't; you would just stand there? Not help her, then say well, its your fault for being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[4a6c1]

I think hes saying that if she whined about the situation that brought her there and got her groped she might 'suck a little at life' (to quote someone).

depends if its just me and 20 of his friends, I might say hey man come on why not just let her go, if he came after me id be willing to pull out the fisticuffs, if his friends came at me I would make a strategic withdrawal.

[Viridian]

I could understand that, I just don't think people should be groped against their will, I think the soldiers were acting on respect. Though from experiences in the past, most drunken men will use any excuse to fight.

Originally posted by JihnasSpirit
I think hes saying that if she whined about the situation that brought her there and got her groped she might 'suck a little at life' (to quote someone).

nope thats not what Im saying

I'm saying don't throw a hot dog in the face of some thug with 20 friends around unless you want to get your ass kicked, She only did that because she knew the guys would defend her and she would not feel the repercussions (that being having her head stomped into the asphalt.)

Originally posted by Viridian
I could understand that, I just don't think people should be groped against their will, I think the soldiers were acting on respect. Though from experiences in the past, most drunken men will use any excuse to fight.
:clap:

which is exactly why the outcry about this from a good number of the posters on the boards is retarded.
IT happens live with it and move on. The guys get to go back to their unit and tell a story about how they fought off 20 thugs, and got their ass kicked.

[CrystalTears]

This is where he'll start talking about women who deserve to get groped and fondled against their will because they dressed provocatively and "asked" for it. They need to "deal with it" themselves. That's what men like Dave say to justify saying that women start everything. Right.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Dave
which is exactly why the outcry about this from a good number of the posters on the boards is retarded.
IT happens live with it and move on. The guys get to go back to their unit and tell a story about how they fought off 20 thugs, and got their ass kicked.

THERE WAS NO FUCKING NEED TO BASH THE GUY'S HEAD IN AT ALL FOR DEFENDING A COUPLE OF GIRLS WHO GOT GROPED AGAINST THEIR WILL! Fucking hell, Dave. Consider the perspective in which this was brought up to begin with and not pull a Latrin (sorry but he does) to point out something that was NEVER THE POINT OF THE FUCKING THREAD TO BEGIN WITH! YOU brought up that it was the girls' fault this happened, instead of realizing, you know, holy shit, that kick to the head was a bit EXCESSIVE FOR WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED! You're so fucking thick.

[Edited on 8/26/2005 by CrystalTears]

Ive never said that CT, nor do I believe that to be true.
You are unwilling to pay attention to what I am saying much like skrim, because it does not go along with your viewpoint. I will repeat my last statement on the topic.

"
I'm saying don't throw a hot dog in the face of some thug with 20 friends around unless you want to get your ass kicked, She only did that because she knew the guys would defend her and she would not feel the repercussions (that being having her head stomped into the asphalt.) "
Women never deserve to be groped, nor are they ever asking for it. Just walk away instead of throwing a hot dog in somebodies face...
Who eats hot dogs when your bar hopping anyways... that's kinda weird

[Back]

Its horrible. Just think, these guys get sent to Iraq, live to tell about it, then get their ass beat by the Americans they were trying to protect.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Backlash]

[CrystalTears]

Just walk away. Alright. When the girl hit the guy with the hot dog because he did something wrong, why didn't HE walk away? No, he has to be a dickhead and start something with a couple of girls. Maybe girls are fucking sick and tired of being treated like a piece of meat just because they look attractive in public.

I hate this thread with this spin on it. I really do.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
Nothing against TOS, I dont think i said that did I.
You know exactly what I mean and what I am talking about.

No



Originally posted by Dave
And my comments stand firm and true.
Some women tend to be stupid and cause fights, this was an example of such an event. The person who grabbed her butt was not the only person at fault.


You can stand BY your comments.

That doesn't make them true.

[Delirium]

The girl might have had the "right" to the throw the hotdog but it was really fucking stupid. If she was that offended by being groped she should have called the police. That or just let it go. Just cause someone has the right to do something does not mean they should do it or that it is the smart decision. I think the woman in this case acted the way she did cause the men were there to back her up. Not her fault but with some common sense she should have known better than to escalate the situation.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Just walk away. Alright. When the girl hit the guy with the hot dog because he did something wrong, why didn't HE walk away? No, he has to be a dickhead and start something with a couple of girls. Maybe girls are fucking sick and tired of being treated like a piece of meat just because they look attractive in public.

I hate this thread with this spin on it. I really do.

yep they could have walked away, but it was unlikely. Especialy with the type of people we are talking about.

You people live to sheltered of lives. The world is a violent place.


As I said before:
Welcome to the world of fighting, it happens, sucks but they got their ass kicked.

[DeV]

Dave has obviously never been groped.

I've handled situations like this differently by opting to just walk away from the guy and not look back. That is one of the most infuriating things you can do to a woman. However some guys have a tendency to feel you've personally offended them when you don't respond to their attempts at being "charming" (i.e. stupidly groping someone whom you have no business putting your hands on in the first damn place). Some people just can't grasp that simple concept.

Originally posted by Delirium
The girl might have had the "right" to the throw the hotdog but it was really fucking stupid. If she was that offended by being groped she should have called the police. That or just let it go. Just cause someone has the right to do something does not mean they should do it or that it is the smart decision. I think the woman in this case acted the way she did cause the men were there to back her up. Not her fault but with some common sense she should have known better than to escalate the situation.
:clap:

[Warriorbird]

And you can sit around and blame the victims.

It was stupid of the girls. Doesn't mean you have to go misogynistic.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
You people live to sheltered of lives. The world is a violent place.
What the fuck ever. Get a clue.

[CrystalTears]

Blame it on the dumb chick who threw the hotdog, Women are the cause of a lot of these type of things.Real slick adding a blurb after the fact, when people jumped on your case with your insensitive bullshit


Some women like to talk trash when they think somebody is there who will defend them. One of these days Ill just sit back and let women handle the shit that they started.Because when all a girl has is a hot dog in her hand and can't think of anything else but throwing it at the guy in disgust, it's time to beat the living shit out of her. Check.


The blame likes in the men with no respect for women that they grabbed a womans whatever. What elevated the situation was the women throwing food at the guy, they could have just left. The guys could have walked away too, but heaven forbid. It's so much more humiliating to be thrown something soft at than to be groped in public. What was I thinking. Men will find any excuse to beat the living shit out of another guy, better yet a soldier because it adds brag rights.

I can read just fine.

Originally posted by DeV
Dave has obviously never been groped.

Yep, I have, I also dropped the mother fucker who did it.
The difference is, I was able to handle the situation by myself, and would not have expected anyone to step in on my behalf.
The women in question on the other hand were unable to handle the situation by themselves and did only what they did because they knew others WOULD step in on their behalf

I've handled situations like this differently by opting to just walk away from the guy and not look back.
Far smarter than the women in this situation. I will venture to guess that there were not many fights as a result of your being smart and walking away.

[Warriorbird]

The hole gets deeper.

Blame it on the dumb chick who threw the hotdog, Women are the cause of a lot of these type of things.[Real slick adding a blurb after the fact, when people jumped on your case with your insensitive bullshit

What blurb added after the fact?



Some women like to talk trash when they think somebody is there who will defend them. One of these days Ill just sit back and let women handle the shit that they started.Because when all a girl has is a hot dog in her hand and can't think of anything else but throwing it at the guy in disgust, it's time to beat the living shit out of her. Check.[/quote[
Nope CT again not what I said. I never said anything was okay, I did say however dont be surprised if you get the living shit beat out of you for doing it. People tend to do stuff like that.



[quote]The blame likes in the men with no respect for women that they grabbed a womans whatever. What elevated the situation was the women throwing food at the guy, they could have just left. The guys could have walked away too, but heaven forbid. It's so much more humiliating to be thrown something soft at than to be groped in public. What was I thinking. Men will find any excuse to beat the living shit out of another guy, better yet a soldier because it adds brag rights.

True, in this area people like the bragging rights, If you go to bars around the colleges here and the college "boys" know your a soldier they often try to start shit just because of that.

However in this situation I dont think we know if these guys knew that the two men were soldiers.


I can read just fine.
then you dont understand what you read well.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by DeV

What the fuck ever. Get a clue.

It's Dave. Not gonna happen. He's intelligence resistant.

And does anyone find him telling others that they have lived sheltered lives incredibly ironic?

[Delirium]

Are you saying her throwing the hotdog was a smart response?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by DeV
Dave has obviously never been groped.

Yep, I have, I also dropped the mother fucker who did it.
The difference is, I was able to handle the situation by myself, and would not have expected anyone to step in on my behalf.
The women in question on the other hand were unable to handle the situation by themselves and did only what they did because they knew others WOULD step in on their behalf

I've handled situations like this differently by opting to just walk away from the guy and not look back.
Far smarter than the women in this situation. I will venture to guess that there were not many fights as a result of your being smart and walking away. Wow, Dave knows exactly what that woman was thinking when she decided to throw that hotdog. Damn you have some mad esp skillz.

In my situation had I been accompanied by a male companion things may have been different but I would not have wanted a fight to erupt on my behalf. I would have done everything in my power to prevent that. However, I would not expect every woman to have to react that way to a man putting his hands on them without consent. It just doesn't work that way.

No CT said it was the only choice she had, walking away should have never crossed her mind.

[Back]

Throw a hot-dog at someone doesn't justify the beatings those guys took.

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by DeV
Dave has obviously never been groped.

Yep, I have, I also dropped the mother fucker who did it.
The difference is, I was able to handle the situation by myself, and would not have expected anyone to step in on my behalf.
The women in question on the other hand were unable to handle the situation by themselves and did only what they did because they knew others WOULD step in on their behalf

I've handled situations like this differently by opting to just walk away from the guy and not look back.
Far smarter than the women in this situation. I will venture to guess that there were not many fights as a result of your being smart and walking away. Wow, Dave knows exactly what that woman was thinking when she decided to throw that hotdog. Damn you have some mad esp skillz.

In my situation had I been accompanied by a male companion things may have been different but I would not have wanted a fight to erupt on my behalf. I would have done everything in my power to prevent that. However, I would not expect every woman to have to react that way to a man putting his hands on them without consent. It just doesn't work that way.

Welp these women obviously didn't try to avoid a confrontation like you would have. After all they threw a hot dog at the guy.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
No CT said it was the only choice she had, walking away should have never crossed her mind. It shouldn't have to be her only choice. At that point she had been assaulted and that is exactly the feeling it brings on, as if someone has violated you.

If it wasn't a crime to react in any other manner, a pen knife in the gut would have probably sufficed.

Originally posted by Backlash
Throw a hot-dog at someone doesn't justify the beatings those guys took.
no it dosent. I also dont think anyone is trying to justify the beating whatsoever.

However one can expect to get their ass kicked if you throw a hotdog in a persons face who may be intoxicated or just looking for a fight. Would you not agree backlash?

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Dave
No CT said it was the only choice she had, walking away should have never crossed her mind. It shouldn't have to be her only choice. At that point she had been assaulted and that is exactly the feeling it brings on, as if someone has violated you.

If it wasn't a crime to react in any other manner, a pen knife in the gut would have probably sufficed.

Ahh we finaly hit the nail on the head.

Somebody throws something and it hits you in the face... what would a reactionary response be?

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Delirium
Are you saying her throwing the hotdog was a smart response?

I will say that it could have been a reflexive response. We all have them.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Dave
No CT said it was the only choice she had, walking away should have never crossed her mind. It shouldn't have to be her only choice. At that point she had been assaulted and that is exactly the feeling it brings on, as if someone has violated you.

If it wasn't a crime to react in any other manner, a pen knife in the gut would have probably sufficed.

Ahh we finaly hit the nail on the head.

Somebody throws something and it hits you in the face... what would a reactionary response be? If I had groped said person against their will my reaction would be that I deserved exactly what I'd gotten.

[Back]

Well if you want to go there then you may expect the same from just glancing at a drunken belligerent guy who wants a fight.

[Delirium]

Originally posted by Backlash
Throw a hot-dog at someone doesn't justify the beatings those guys took.

Definately not. I agree 100%. The guys who gave those beatings didnt care though. Agitating violent drunks is foolish. Does a woman have the right to sun bathe in a bikini in the yard? Of course she does! What if they lived in a building with 80 sex offenders? Sure they still have the right and if anything happens it aint her fault. However common sense says thats a really stupid choice. Sun bathing doesnt mean someone should deserve to be raped either. Just like those soldiers didnt deserve to get that beating.

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Delirium
Are you saying her throwing the hotdog was a smart response?

I will say that it could have been a reflexive response. We all have them.
YES! as could be throwing fists after somebody hits you in the face with something. Would you not agree Harmnone?

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Delirium

Originally posted by Backlash
Throw a hot-dog at someone doesn't justify the beatings those guys took.

Definately not. I agree 100%. The guys who gave those beatings didnt care though. Agitating violent drunks is foolish. Does a woman have the right to sun bathe in a bikini in the yard? Of course she does! What if they lived in a building with 80 sex offenders? Sure they still have the right and if anything happens it aint her fault. However common sense says thats a really stupid choice. Sun bathing doesnt mean someone should deserve to be raped either. Just like those soldiers didnt deserve to get that beating.

No, they sure didn't. Whether soldier or civilian, what happened didn't justify the beating those guys took. Thankfully, someone was filming. If that film leads to the arrest and conviction of the perpetrators, perhaps some justice will have been achieved.

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by HarmNone]

[DeV]

Dave, why are you trying to determine the correct course of action of someone who's been physically violated?

And when did it become your call to make?

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave

no it dosent. I also dont think anyone is trying to justify the beating whatsoever.
Sounds like you are trying to at least calve away a percentage towards the woman who had the gall to stand up to someone for feeling her up even though she isnt as big and tough as you are.


Originally posted by Dave
However one can expect to get their ass kicked if you throw a hotdog in a persons face who may be intoxicated or just looking for a fight. Would you not agree backlash?

I sure wouldn't, no.

There are these things called laws....and any bar or club that is so rowdy as to allow this sort of behavior needs to be made an example of along with the neanderthals who both groped these women and then beat those soldiers and then danced around afterwards.

No, im pointing out the stupidity of people saying being appalled at this happening.

As I said before:
Welcome to the world of fighting, it happens, sucks but they got their ass kicked.

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Dave

no it dosent. I also dont think anyone is trying to justify the beating whatsoever.
Sounds like you are trying to at least calve away a percentage towards the woman who had the gall to stand up to someone for feeling her up even though she isnt as big and tough as you are.[/quote[
Yep, she was somewhat at fault, not as much as the ass grabber, but throwing the hotdog caused the fight. After that there was no walking away on her part, as there would have been if she just kept walking.


Originally posted by Dave
However one can expect to get their ass kicked if you throw a hotdog in a persons face who may be intoxicated or just looking for a fight. Would you not agree backlash?

I sure wouldn't, no.

There are these things called laws....and any bar or club that is so rowdy as to allow this sort of behavior needs to be made an example of along with the neanderthals who both groped these women and then beat those soldiers and then danced around afterwards.

Of course you wouldent agree with me skrim, then you would have to say that I am in fact right, and we know you're completely unwilling to do so no matter the situation. You might be surprised but I agree with a lot of the things you have said in this thread,

Throwing objects at people is assault. Since we are talking about laws and everything.



[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
No, im pointing out the stupidity of people saying being appalled at this happening.

As I said before:
Welcome to the world of fighting, it happens, sucks but they got their ass kicked. Welcome to life. Shit always happens but that doesn't mean one's actions will go unpunished just because the law they've broken is something that potentially happens every Friday night at any given time in the world.

They are thugs. Nothing more and nothing less. You would not want them in your neighborhood and women should not have to worry about men like them putting their hands on them against their will.

I'm not apalled because I've seen worse and know how these type of filth operate in their very own neighborhoods. I'm guessing that you don't, hence your lack of reason.

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Dave
No, im pointing out the stupidity of people saying being appalled at this happening.

As I said before:
Welcome to the world of fighting, it happens, sucks but they got their ass kicked. Welcome to life. Shit always happens but that doesn't mean one's actions will go unpunished just because the law they've broken is something that potentially happens every Friday night at any given time in the world.

They are thugs. Nothing more and nothing less. You would not want them in your neighborhood and women should not have to worry about men like them putting their hands on them against their will.

I'm not apalled because I've seen worse and know how these type of filth operate in their very own neighborhoods. I'm guessing that you don't, hence your lack of reason.

DEV I am in 100% agreement in the above post. You are completely Correct.
(minus the last sentence of course)

[Edited on 8-26-2005 by Dave]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave

Throwing objects at people is assault. Since we are talking about laws and everything.

After they've turned themselves into the police perhaps they can try to bring charges against the same women they assaulted and see how far it goes.

Hey she brought up laws, I was just pointing out the fact that the woman broke one too. :)

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave

Yep, she was somewhat at fault, not as much as the ass grabber, but throwing the hotdog caused the fight. After that there was no walking away on her part, as there would have been if she just kept walking.

So you really are back to the "Lay back and enjoy it." stance you are so comfortable with.



Originally posted by Dave
Of course you wouldent agree with me skrim, then you would have to say that I am in fact right, and we know you're completely unwilling to do so no matter the situation. You might be surprised but I agree with a lot of the things you have said in this thread,

I would be shocked Dave as your skull has heretofore succesfully rejected any intelligence penetrating it.



Originally posted by Dave
Throwing objects at people is assault. Since we are talking about laws and everything.

Tell you what Detective, i'll take my odds in court getting ANY kind of charge as that tossed and the prosecuter looking like an insensitive asshole to boot. Can you say the same for those cretin who started the whole thing? I doubt it.

A crime is a crime. :shrug:

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
A crime is a crime. :shrug:

That's all you got Dave?

Seriously?

Wow.

I dont think I need to say anything else. You were the one crying about the crimes commited. Why not include them all, OH yeah it dosent help you to prove your case.

[Skirmisher]

Hey Dave, I told you to please......go get that crime prosecuted.

Knock yourself out.

Just be sure to makre sure the press knows it's you pressing the case.

I think you should contact the Seattle DA's office right now.

This failing of the justice system should not go unchallenged.

Please. I'd love it.

[DeV]

:bouncy:

[Delirium]

So you really are back to the "Lay back and enjoy it." stance you are so comfortable with.

I dont think anyone agrees that the woman should "lay back and enjoy it". However people should know their situation. If dealing with violent drunk morons you should realize they are violent drunk morons and will ACT like violent drunk morons. Is it really so hard to call the police and file charges against them? Those men wernt rational law abiding citizens who just accidently groped the women.

For them yes, the woman could do no wrong.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Delirium

If dealing with violent drunk morons you should realize they are violent drunk morons and will ACT like violent drunk morons.

My issue is only with this part of your statement. I did not read that they all knew each other or that they somehow knew that they were this pathetic excuse of life.

How can we be expected to assume that every single man we meet is capable of such an act?

Again, we live in a society with laws for EXACTLY this reason. She had NO reason whatsoever to expect that these things would explode like they did.

I will continue to reject any claims that she was to blame for this unless someone can show me where it was reported that she knew something of their backround or the like.

[Skirmisher]

In case you were too busy controlling yourself and not beating up all the women you come across each day who assault you with hot dogs i took a moment to get the contact info for you so you see that that villianess is shown she can not just throw hot dogs willy nilly at every guy who grabs her.

Go get em Detective!


http://www.cityofseattle.net/law/contact/


Seattle City Attorney
Civil Division &
Thomas A. Carr's office

600 4th Avenue, 4th Floor
PO Box 94769
Seattle, WA 98124-4769

Phone (206) 684-8200
TTY Phone (206) 233-7206

FAX (206) 684-8284

Seattle City Attorney
Public & Community Safety Division

700 5th Avenue, Suite 5350
PO Box 94667
Seattle, WA 98124-4667

Phone (206) 684-7757
TTY Phone (206) 233-7206

FAX (206) 684-4648

Dev, I am being completely serious here. I know your smart, both intelligence and street wise.
The guys you saw in the video, would you or would you not expect them to have blown up, being that they were drunk and the type of people they appeared to be (as you said Thugs)?

[Sean of the Thread]

Well nit picky or not it is true. I wonder if it is the bitch in omen's avatar.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
Dev, I am being completely serious here. I know your smart, both intelligence and street wise.
The guys you saw in the video, would you or would you not expect them to have blown up, being that they were drunk and the type of people they appeared to be (as you said Thugs)? Honestly, I am always on my guard when it comes to guys like that. Some women are and some aren't and I can't fault them because some of these guys are their fathers, brothers, and sons. I can't expect everyone to behave in a uniform manner because we don't all come from the same place. You know it doesn't work that way in this thing called life Dave.

A woman shouldn't have to always be on their guard and that is the moral of all of this. They had no right and should not be given any excuse in the book for thinking it was ok to do what started that chain of events. Everyone involved could have behaved in a different manner though, so that point was made.

But you are on guard, because you know the type of guy they are. Maybe its my fault for thinking this girl street smart in a sense.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
Maybe its my fault for thinking this girl street smart in a sense. Yes.

[Sean of the Thread]

This is retarded.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
But you are on guard, because you know the type of guy they are. Maybe its my fault for thinking this girl street smart in a sense.

Please Dave.

Educate me as to how exactly I should know how those guys were the kind of guys who would attack someone like animals.

What EXACTLY was it about them beforehand that you saw in them that let you know RIGHT THEN that they were capable of that.

And please do give us the link for that video so we can learn from your sage advice.

[Sean of the Thread]

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Dave
But you are on guard, because you know the type of guy they are. Maybe its my fault for thinking this girl street smart in a sense.

Please Dave.

Educate me as to how exactly I should know how those guys were the kind of guys who would attack someone like animals.

What EXACTLY was it about them beforehand that you saw in them that let you know RIGHT THEN that they were capable of that.

And please do give us the link for that video so we can learn from your sage advice.

I know but I'm telling.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Xyelin


I know but I'm telling.

Almost as well put as Dave would do himself.

Ask Dev why she would be on guard around them. She would be better off to explain it.

It seems you much like this woman are ignorant in this regard.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Dave]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
Ask Dev why she would be on guard around them.

It seems you much like this woman are ignorant in this regard.

Please educate me then Dave. I would love to hear these pearls of wisdom from you.

I assume you saw a video from inside the bar and not just the tail end of the attack, correct?

Surely you are saying they knew the asses would attack from their bahavior inside the bar...and so...you must have seen that behavior.

Okay, dont share the wisdom, if you think it best. The hyperlink will be enough..

Dev, Why would you be on guard around those types of people?

[Skirmisher]

Good answer Dave!

[DeV]

Originally posted by Dave
Dev, Why would you be on guard around those types of people? Quite frankly, you're blaming the victim again. Congrats, you win.

I'm done.

[Skirmisher]

So...about that link.

just answering a question for Skrim Dev. Since you refuse to Ill take a stab at it.

Simple Skrim, they are the stereotypical rap culture thugs.
Gang bangers, or gang banger wannabees.
If that doesn't help you're on your own.

[ElanthianSiren]

Also, I'm not sure that the fight happened directly as a cause of the hotdog. There seems to be quite an amount of elapsed time between said events:

We don't know if these guys followed the women around the club groping and the hotdog was a last resort. We don't know how many gropes, circumstances etc. Blaming the women without this information is pretentious and misogynistic, as WB pointed out.

We also don't know how the two guys reacted. They might have done exactly as Dave said and said, "Hey, that's not cool. Knock it off."

Due to the fact that they were beaten up outside, they may have been following Dave's advice exactly and fleeing a scene where they were out numbered.

If one dies, I think it's premed then, isn't it?

-M

[Skirmisher]

Dave knows all about the stereotypical rap culture thugs.

All it took was one look at the guy putting hit foot on the unconcious guys face and his highly honed ability kicked in and he knew these guys were most likely not on the math team.

Now, he also must have seen them on the inside also as he says he knew beforehand that they should have known that the guys were insane but won't share the source of his information.

Or, of course he could be talking out his ass again.

[Wezas]

A third soldier who avoided most of the incident came out mostly unscathed:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/public/img-1111875575.jpg

(Not trying to make light of what happened - it is truely a horrible incident)

[Jolena]

I would imagine it would be premeditated yes, if one of them dies. As to the rest of the discussion here, let me just say that I'm surprised this thread has gone as far as it has. However, I have nothing else to add that hasn't already been added at this point. Everyone knows my point of view on the woman being at fault for this situation.

I guess I'm still hoping Dave can show some shred of humanity and actually say something that I can relate to rather then just gawk, shake my head in disgust and sometimes amusement.

[Warriorbird]

"Simple Skrim, they are the stereotypical rap culture thugs.
Gang bangers, or gang banger wannabees. "

Priceless.

Keep on digging, Dave. What wonders will turn up?

[KraizMaule]

Seriously...you guys can't tell the badasses from the good guys?

I'm a Philly guy myself, and I have to say it isn't too hard to do. Young black males in FuBu gear are people you want to stay away from, not the least of which is because they have practice fighting and never go anywhere alone.

Secondly, I think the thugs should go to jail for being thugs.

Thirdly, women are women. They behave differently than men. Expecting women to think like men is in itself a flawed assumption.

I think Dave is under the impression that these women should have, after being groped, taken a step back, a deep breath, and thought about the best way to get out of the situation. Clearly, you can't expect women to be rational after being felt up by guys they don't like.

I however, do agree that if by some miracle they had been rational, they wouldn't have thrown the hot dog. Because two piss drunk enlisted soldiers aren't much of a bodyguard.

Finally...to the women that seem to be arguing "he started it." This isn't a very deep rationale. A toddler comes up with reasoning like this. If we're looking with 20/20 hindsight, I think the clear course of action for the women is to walk away, because we know throwing the hot dog got them no where.

[Warriorbird]

So... you like blaming the victims of sexual aggression too?
You going to tell us about men and their uncontrollable urges next?

Do you flinch when you walk past a black person on the street?

Travelling with one of my friends in high school clued me in to how ridiculous portions of white America are.

If you and Dave had admitted that there was some fault here besides the women's, I'd have been cool with that.... but....

OMG, they're wearing Fubu... they're clearly dangerous criminals! is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on this board.


[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Warriorbird]

[KraizMaule]

When in all of my post did I ever say it was only the women's fault. That's clearly false.

I don't flinch when I walk past any black people on the street, but if I'm by myself and there's 3 of them, I cross the street. Especially if I'm past 40th Street in West Philly.

Clothing is a big thing, including if they have wife beaters or not, jewelry they wear, and if their shirts are collared or not. If I see a black person in khakis and a polo, clean shaven, I'll be a lot less wary.

I think you're very naive when it comes to unsavory places.

And an actual argument wouldn't hurt your position.

Editted to add::

The more I think about the attack above, the more I realize how ridiculous it is. Not only did I say the thugs need to go to jail, I exonerated the women from the act of throwing the hot dog because I said it was in the heat of the moment. To attack me in such a manner shows someone who is clearly moved past an educational and intellectual debate.

Are you a woman, too, Warriorbird?

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

[Delirium]

Educate me as to how exactly I should know how those guys were the kind of guys who would attack someone like animals.

IMO when a strange man starts groping you, that alone should set off warning bells that these are the kind of men who are likely to be bad and are capable of anything. Didnt you watch after school specials as a kid? Follow your instincts. Better safe than sorry and all that jazz.

Maybe im naive and cut off from most of the world but ive never just started groping women i didnt know. Id assume most here are the same way. Its a very agressive act.

I will add, when did I ever say it was the womens fault alone.
I have said 20 times that the thugs were to blame, BUT some blame lies in the womans reaction.
Do you want me to pick out the quotes and post them again for you warriorbird, or are you going to be like skrim and pay attention to only the parts you want.

Originally posted by Warriorbird

OMG, they're wearing Fubu... they're clearly dangerous criminals! is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on this board.


[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Warriorbird]

DEV wouldent continue, so I had to do it, her being African American, and saying it would have held more water. As she said THUG's like that.
It has nothing to do with white or black. Rap culture is all encompassing. There are white boys who act the same way.
The type of person who portrays themselves that way in my experience is not somebody you want to fuck with when they are in a group.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Dave]

[KraizMaule]

Rap culture is all encompassing, and there are also stereotypes that can be used when you don't want your ass kicked.

[Shonison]

<<Do you flinch when you walk past a black person on the street?

OMG, they're wearing Fubu... they're clearly dangerous criminals! is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on this board.>>

Sorry, it may not be politically correct, but it is true. You do not screw with young black males dressed like this in an urban area late at night unless you massively outnumber them...and maybe not even then, as they may be carrying guns. It's common sense, and I don't even spend time in cities. The situation absolutely was the fault of said black males, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but both the woman and the soldiers should have recognized the odds and gotten the hell out of there.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
Blame it on the dumb chick who threw the hotdog, Women are the cause of a lot of these type of things.

Most retarded thing you have ever posted.
And believe me that was quite an achievement.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
I will add, when did I ever say it was the womens fault alone.
I have said 20 times that the thugs were to blame, BUT some blame lies in the womans reaction.
Do you want me to pick out the quotes and post them again for you warriorbird, or are you going to be like skrim and pay attention to only the parts you want.

Youre a fucking moron.
It is the fault of the perpetrator...AT ALL TIMES!
No-one else's fault.
Never. Ever.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Delirium
The girl might have had the "right" to the I think the woman in this case acted the way she did cause the men were there to back her up.



Reportedly, the two men were with two women at a nightclub when the suspects in the pending case groped the two women. One of the women says she threw a hot dog at the suspects and walked away. The suspects allegedly ran after them and that's when the two soldiers got involved.

Doesnt suggest to me that the soldiers were with them at the time it kicked off. Maybe it's just the way I'm reading it, but it looks as though the soldiers jumped in when the wankers were chasing the women as they ran off.

Hardly two trouble making women hiding behind their big tough protectors.

I cant believe that anyone can see that the entire blame for this lies anywhere else than with the perpetrators.

So its always the fault of the guy who throws the first punch, Nobody else is ever to blame.
It was Englands' fault that they got blown up because they kill Arabs, only, nobody else, ever.
Yep, nobody else is ever to blame, moron.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
So its always the fault of the guy who throws the first punch, Nobody else is ever to blame.
It was Englands' fault that they got blown up because they kill Arabs, only, nobody else, ever.
Yep, nobody else is ever to blame, moron.

You're a fucking idiot.
Go listen to perpetrators and victims of domestic violence.
You will hear "I did it but she pushed me"
"Yeah he did hit me but I was asking for it"
far more times than you would want to.
That's what you sound like.

If I say something to you, regardless of what it is, (short of please hit me) you have no right to assault me in any way. If you do, the blame for that action lies with you. You and you alone.

Now taking the bombings in London, the blame for those bombings lies squarely on the shoulders of the bombers. They have no justification whatsoever for their acts of aggression...they are the equivalent of the thugs in that video.

Now if you had said the people of Iraq had the right to take up arms against our collective countries when we embarked on an illegal war with them, you would have a point. Otherwise, your little anecdote is fucking retarded. But then thats what we've come to expect from you.

Wanker.

[CrystalTears]

So its always the fault of the guy who throws the first punch, Nobody else is ever to blame.

This is the best thing you've said in this thread. The sad part is that you're being sarcastic and don't believe it yourself.

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Dave
So its always the fault of the guy who throws the first punch, Nobody else is ever to blame.
It was Englands' fault that they got blown up because they kill Arabs, only, nobody else, ever.
Yep, nobody else is ever to blame, moron.

You're a fucking idiot.
Go listen to perpetrators and victims of domestic violence.
You will hear "I did it but she pushed me"
"Yeah he did hit me but I was asking for it"
far more times than you would want to.
That's what you sound like.

If I say something to you, regardless of what it is, (short of please hit me) you have no right to assault me in any way. If you do, the blame for that action lies with you. You and you alone.


Wanker.

Amazing analogy, only problem is we are not talking about domestic violence ya dumb cunt.
We are talking about a bar fight.
(PS you remember that apology, yeah I only did it because arkans asked me to, so his life would be easier, hell I didn't even write it, i had somebody else do it for me) :) have a nice day

Originally posted by CrystalTears

So its always the fault of the guy who throws the first punch, Nobody else is ever to blame.

This is the best thing you've said in this thread. The sad part is that you're being sarcastic and don't believe it yourself.
What is more sad is that you believe nobody else is to blame. You see people instigate fights, who don't throw the first punch. They are the cause for it, heck I am guilty of that. So I know that your "blame the person who threw the punch ONLY" dosent hold water. People are to easy to manipulate and get rilled up.

But in this case, it was not my fault that I called nien a cunt again, since she threw the first insult by calling me a moron, and a wanker, she is completely to blame, and only her.

Heck I didnt choose to call her a cunt, just like the woman didnt choose to throw a hotdog at the guy. I am innocent!

Lets look at it another way, say the soldier threw the first punch, then its not the fault of the dude who stomped his head into the ground, he is completely innocent of all crimes, because the soldier threw the first punch.

I know your not that dumb, think before you post please.



[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Dave]

[CrystalTears]

If you truly want to play the blame game, it STILL goes back to the guys who groped the girls to begin with. They started it! OMFG! Talk about taking only the parts you wanted to focus on. You forget that they started it from the get-go.

All this still does not justify kicking someone in the head who is already on the ground unconscious. There was no need for it to get to that point. It was no longer a simple bar fight like you keep on bringing up. The second it turns to that nature of a fight, it's crossing the line of the law, which is why they're being looked for to arrest.

I'm not even going to touch the insults, and ask that they cease.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave

Amazing analogy, only problem is we are not talking about domestic violence ya dumb cunt.
We are talking about a bar fight.

No, we are talking about attributing the blame for bad/abusive/violent behaviour.

Edited to add, this wasnt in a bar. It was in the street.
It was an unprovoked, unnecessary and unjustifiable assault. That you try and minimise it with the "Oh it was just a bar fight...us army boiz do that stuff all teh time" shit is pretty sick in itself.
End of Edit.



(PS you remember that apology, yeah I only did it because arkans asked me to, so his life would be easier, hell I didn't even write it, i had somebody else do it for me) :) have a nice day

How old are you again?

[Edited on 27-8-05 by Nieninque]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave

I know your not that dumb, think before you post please.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAOMFGHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHTOOFUNNYHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am going to put this post in call caps since you dont seem to understand things in lowecase considering i have said this about 20 times already

THE DUMBASS WHO GRABBED THE CHICKS ASS IS THE MOST TO BLAME
THE CHICK WHO THREW A HOTDOG IN THE DUMBASSES FASSE IS """""""ASLO"""""" TO BLAME, BUT NOT TO THE SAME EXTENT.
THE SOLDIERS WHO DECIDED TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND STOP WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ARE """"""ALSO"""""" TO BLAME
THERE IS NO JUSTIFYING THE STOMPING OF SOMEBODIES HEAD INTO THE GROUND, NO MATTER THE SITUATION (UNLESS IN WAR OF COURSE THEN ANYTHING GOES)

JUST ABOUT EVERY TIME I HAVE BEEN KNOCKED TO THE GROUND IN A FIGHT LIKE THAT I HAVE BEEN KICKED OR STOMPPED, ITS JUST THE WAY IT GOES, AND YOU BETCHA I RETURN THE FAVOR, I GO FOR BODY NOT HEAD THOUGH BECAUSE IM NOT A DUMBASS THUG WHO THINKS HES A HARDASS AND DOSENT FEAR GOING TO JAIL BECAUSE HES A """THUG""" FOR LIFE.


ANY FIGHT IS CAUSE FOR ARREST, YOU SEE AS SKRIM SAID IT IS IN FACT BREAKING THE LAW. AND AS i SAID SO IS THROIWING A HOTDOG IN SOMBODIES FACE.

[CrystalTears]

Heh, I'm with DeV. I'm done here. Have a nice day.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave Dunderhead
JUST ABOUT EVERY TIME I...blah blah blah

***Newsflash***

This just in...

This isnt about you, fuckhead.

***back to your original programmes***

[Edited on 27-8-05 by Nieninque]

... using personal experience, considering CT has zero in situations like this (chick fights dont count) was needed in this situation. Some people fight dirty, as these "nice gentlemen" did.

[CrystalTears]

LOL! Just wanted to add that you know ZERO about me, so don't assume you do. You know jack shit.

How often do you get into fights with men outisde of bars CT?

[Kainen]

What were the women supposed to do after being groped? Just walk away? Slap the guys in question? Go to the police who would have done nothing? As for your comment that women are the cause of a lot of these "things". exactly which things are you talking about? The gang of males that groped them? The gang of males that beat the 2 soldiers? For whatever reason you are totally misplacing the blame on the women who weren't doing ANYTHING but walkin down the street. The 2 soldiers acted with some honor and tried to defend the women. What would you have done.. walked by? ignored it? Sometimes your views make me wonder what kind of person you really are.

[KraizMaule]

Not saying Dave hasn't taken a few big leaps, I just have to mention again why the "who started it" syndrome is a horrible horrible justification, whether it's being used by either side.

"He started it" is a reason that can justify the most horrible crimes and behaviors through escalation. It also holds no water.

Would you murder someone's father because they murdered your father?

No matter the amount of force used, you have to justify it by something other than, "they did something wrong first," or you're ethically sitting on a argument bound to fall on it's face.

I don't suppose this will keep people from arguing this way, I'm just pointing out how flawed the reasoning is.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
I am going to put this post in call caps since you dont seem to understand things in lowecase considering i have said this about 20 times already

Save the energy of pressing caps lock and use it to put the letters in all the right places.


THE DUMBASS WHO GRABBED THE CHICKS ASS IS THE MOST TO BLAME

He is to blame completely for sexually assaulting a woman. He is to blame completely for his part in assaulting the soldiers. Short of being assaulted in the first place, there is no justification for his actions.


THE CHICK WHO THREW A HOTDOG IN THE DUMBASSES FASSE IS """""""ASLO"""""" TO BLAME, BUT NOT TO THE SAME EXTENT.

I could use your quote here, you know, the one where you said "I know youre not that dumb, think before you post" but you clearly are that dumb, so it would be a misplaced quote.

What is FASSE and ASLO?

She is to blame for throwing a hotdog. It would most definitely be considered unwise. But does that mean she takes reponsibility for the actions of the twat who then mashed the soldiers? Nope. Not at all. No more than it would have if he had let that anger stew for a while and gone home and beat his wife/gf/kids/cat or gone down the supermarket and shot the cashier in the face. The person responsible for his actions is HIM. not her.


THE SOLDIERS WHO DECIDED TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND STOP WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN ARE """"""ALSO"""""" TO BLAME

There you go doing that 'talking shit' thing again.
If they did the right thing, how are they to blame? If you need help answering, go ask the person who turned the computer on for you today.


THERE IS NO JUSTIFYING THE STOMPING OF SOMEBODIES HEAD INTO THE GROUND, NO MATTER THE SITUATION

See...you got there in the end.
There is no justifying it.
Therefore you can stop attempting to.



(UNLESS IN WAR OF COURSE THEN ANYTHING GOES)

I look forward to seeing the video of you at your warcrimes trial, should you ever get to see active service.

In the meantime, you might want to read up a little...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention


ANY FIGHT IS CAUSE FOR ARREST, YOU SEE AS SKRIM SAID IT IS IN FACT BREAKING THE LAW. AND AS i SAID SO IS THROIWING A HOTDOG IN SOMBODIES FACE.
Although, the fact that she was sexually assaulted prior to the throwing of the hotdog would probably negate any potential charges that may be brought.

Have a nice pwning...errrr....day.

[Kainen]

Originally posted by KraizMaule
Would you murder someone's father because they murdered your father?

No, I would murder them if I got the chance.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
... using personal experience, considering CT has zero in situations like this (chick fights dont count) was needed in this situation. Some people fight dirty, as these "nice gentlemen" did.

No-one is interested in your sheltered warped, blinkered personal experience.
This was just another opportunity for you to say "luk at mee i r soljar"...we dont fucking care.

and your "i haf bien in a fite befor" adds nothing to this because you cant even see the fact that you have contradicted yourself.

M
O
R
O
N

[Artha]

Would you murder someone's father because they murdered your father?
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsbook/inigo.jpg

Originally posted by Kainen
What were the women supposed to do after being groped?
just walk away?
YES!
I said it already but like most of the women in the thread you ignored it.

As for your comment that women are the cause of a lot of these "things". exactly which things are you talking about?
Women cause a lot of fights, the loud mouthed types, they dont have to suffer the repercussions because men tend to defend them, and they know it.
I said it already, and like most of the women in this thread you igored it

For whatever reason you are totally misplacing the blame on the women who weren't doing ANYTHING but walkin down the street.
Your right, they did nothing until they three a hot dog at somebody who was willing to fuck them up.

The 2 soldiers acted with some honor and tried to defend the women. What would you have done.. walked by? ignored it?
I said it before but you like most women in this thread chose to ignore it.
It would completely depend on the situation. In this situation yeah I would have kept walking, I am honorable and dont treat women like these men did, but I also am not stupid 10 vs 2, bad odds, I prefer not to go to the hospital unless i have to, and this fight just like the women could have been avoided by simply walking away.


Sometimes your views make me wonder what kind of person you really are.
:D

[KraizMaule]

What were the women supposed to do after being groped? Just walk away? Slap the guys in question? Go to the police who would have done nothing?

Jumping back into the fray myself...looking at it now, can you justify them doing anything other than walking away and calling the police?

Sure, they didn't know what would happen in the heat of the moment, but you now do. The only viable answer, therefore, is to prevent the escalation and not throw the hotdog. We don't know for sure, but this could have easily prevented the situation from occuring?

These men were willing to get their asses kicked by 3 black guys to protect the women. That's very honorable.

What would you say about women who, after being groped, walked away in order to avoid a fight? Would that not be as honorable, if not moreso, then the soldiers?

In conclusion, the thugs were thugs, horrible people.
The women were ordinary women, not starting the situation, but certainly not helping fix things either.
The soldiers were soldiers, and acted honorably and took the beating for the incident

[Kainen]

It's sad that you are a US soldier and you would just walk by a woman in trouble. I also feel sorry for any woman who got involved with you, she obviously couldn't count on you to help her in a similiar situation, if it arised. There are not as many "loud mouthed" women as you'd like to think. Personally I would have maced the lot of em.. fuck throwing a hotdog :D

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Dave
... using personal experience, considering CT has zero in situations like this (chick fights dont count) was needed in this situation. Some people fight dirty, as these "nice gentlemen" did.

No-one is interested in your sheltered warped, blinkered personal experience.
This was just another opportunity for you to say "luk at mee i r soljar"...we dont fucking care.

and your "i haf bien in a fite befor" adds nothing to this because you cant even see the fact that you have contradicted yourself.

M
O
R
O
N

yeah and being a soldier really has anything to do with a bar fight.
:clap:

[KraizMaule]

No, I would murder them if I got the chance.

I understand this from a emotional level, but how can you justify this ethically?

Know the saying two wrongs don't make a right?

Saying you'd do it and debating it's the right thing is very different. People are willing to be unethical at times.

[HarmNone]

Let's look at a couple of possibilities:

The throwing of the hotdog may have been a reflex action as opposed to an action of intent.

How do we know the girls hadn't already tried to walk away from these cretins? As I understood it, the cretins were chasing after the girls when the soldiers took them on.

It is distinctly possible that the girls would have been pursued by said cretins whether or not the hotdog was thrown. The creeps were looking for trouble, and they were willing to make it themselves.

There are a lot of assumptions being made here on a paucity of knowledge, I'd say....

Originally posted by Kainen
It's sad that you are a US soldier and you would just walk by a woman in trouble. I also feel sorry for any woman who got involved with you, she obviously couldn't count on you to help her in a similiar situation, if it arised. There are not as many "loud mouthed" women as you'd like to think. Personally I would have maced the lot of em.. fuck throwing a hotdog :D
When I see a situation where my involvement might get me killed, you are damn right im going to keep walking. If there was anything I could do to stop it I would, but as was shown by the video, in this case it was not worth it.
I dont care about anyone aside from my family to put my life on the line for at the moment. It has nothing to do with being a soldier.

Women want to be equal, so let them be. They bring it upon themselves.

[KraizMaule]

I also feel sorry for any woman who got involved with you, she obviously couldn't count on you to help her in a similiar situation, if it arised.

If Dave did as he said, wouldn't he simply be refusing to be as honorable as the soldiers? He wouldn't be any more of an unethical person than the women, in this situation. I would be interested if you think otherwise.

[KraizMaule]

Women want to be equal, so let them be. They bring it upon themselves.

I think this is remarkably insightful. The women seem to be arguing that it is the man's *duty* to be chivalrous. Yet what if the soldier's decided to let the women handle their own predicament? They clearly couldn't, if left to their own devices.

Edited to add: My first comment didn't come out right...Should they have escalated a situation they couldn't finish without outside help? What if they were men getting in a fight with other men? Would these soldiers have felt as compelled to enter the fray? I would say no.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Let's look at a couple of possibilities:

The throwing of the hotdog may have been a reflex action as opposed to an action of intent.
we addressed this question already harmnone, and you decided to ignore my responce so I will ask it again.
Swinging at somebody who threw something in your face could be considered a reflex action could it not?
Please answer this time, I know it does not help to prove your point but thats the way it is.

[/quote]How do we know the girls hadn't already tried to walk away from these cretins? As I understood it, the cretins were chasing after the girls when the soldiers took them on.[/quote]
Is it not a heat of the moment action to chase somebody down who just threw something and hit you in the face?


It is distinctly possible that the girls would have been pursued by said cretins whether or not the hotdog was thrown. The creeps were looking for trouble, and they were willing to make it themselves.
Yes it is, but its also more possible that if they kept walking these cretins would have let them alone. We will never know since they threw a hotdog in the guys face instead.


There are a lot of assumptions being made here on a paucity of knowledge, I'd say....

Please answer my questions this time instead of avoiding them, thank you.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave
... using personal experience, considering CT has zero in situations like this (chick fights dont count) was needed in this situation. Some people fight dirty, as these "nice gentlemen" did.

You are only aweak little gurl CT.

Dave is a tuff soldierboy with years of combat experience under his belt.

Lay back enjoy it and once properly impregnated stay in the kitchen where you belong.

Anything more and you will be throwing Dave's concept of the universe out of wack.

[Kainen]

Originally posted by KraizMaule

No, I would murder them if I got the chance.

I understand this from a emotional level, but how can you justify this ethically?

Know the saying two wrongs don't make a right?

Saying you'd do it and debating it's the right thing is very different. People are willing to be unethical at times.

I would do it.. and I am not trying to justify it on ANY level. Killing is wrong unless your life is threatened etc. I would be willing to pay for my crime, but killing someone who had murdered my father wouldn't be something I would hesitate over all that much.

[KraizMaule]

It is distinctly possible that the girls would have been pursued by said cretins whether or not the hotdog was thrown. The creeps were looking for trouble, and they were willing to make it themselves.

Very true. However, we know throwing the hotdog did *not* work. So, while the same situation may have evolved without the woman's involvement, we'll never know if it truely was a better course of action, or simply a different one.

[KraizMaule]

I would be willing to pay for my crime

This solidifies my point. The fact that the women through the hotdog after being groped seems a similiar situation.

Clearly justified emotionally...but was it ethically? I would say no.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by KraizMaule

It is distinctly possible that the girls would have been pursued by said cretins whether or not the hotdog was thrown. The creeps were looking for trouble, and they were willing to make it themselves.

Very true. However, we know throwing the hotdog did *not* work. So, while the same situation may have evolved without the woman's involvement, we'll never know if it truely was a better course of action, or simply a different one.

Nor will we ever know whether the throwing of the hotdog was a purposeful action or a reflexive action. That is my point. There's far too much unknown for all the opinions that are being bandied about.

[Kainen]

Originally posted by KraizMaule

Women want to be equal, so let them be. They bring it upon themselves.

I think this is remarkably insightful. The women seem to be arguing that it is the man's *duty* to be chivalrous. Yet what if the soldier's decided to let the women handle their own predicament? They clearly couldn't, if left to their own devices.

Edited to add: My first comment didn't come out right...Should they have escalated a situation they couldn't finish without outside help? What if they were men getting in a fight with other men? Would these soldiers have felt as compelled to enter the fray? I would say no.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

It's not insightful, it's a generalization. Not all women think like that.

[KraizMaule]

Nor will we ever know whether the throwing of the hotdog was a purposeful action or a reflexive action. That is my point. There's far too much unknown for all the opinions that are being bandied about

Again true, but if this debate is handled without insults, I don't see why that should keep us from speculating. You could even argue the differences between reflexive actions and purposeful ones. Would it make the women more ethical if it was reflexive?

Although I would prefer a bit less insults and more reasoned debate.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

[Warriorbird]

"They bring it upon themselves."

Yeah. What was that about equally laying blame?

Isn't a hole it's a fucking tunnel to China at this point.

[KraizMaule]

It's not insightful, it's a generalization. Not all women think like that.

The way Dave is putting his arguments, they're clearly meant to be offensive.

I'm trying to use his comment and change it into a more debatable topic.

If you read my comments, you can see there's a great deal it brings to the discussion if you make it less aggressive.

Edited to add: Nor do I think all women feel this way, of course. Clearly any of us can pick up on a generalization when we see it. However, would you say more women feel this way than don't?

I would say a great many women still look to chivalry in the days of 2005. Whether it's a courtesy or a duty is a deeper question these days. Clearly many people on these boards think Dave would be a bad person because he wouldn't practice chivalry in that instance.

I would personally disagree. Women have equal rights, I would say women now have equal responsibility? Do you agree?

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Dave

we addressed this question already harmnone, and you decided to ignore my responce so I will ask it again.
Swinging at somebody who threw something in your face could be considered a reflex action could it not?
Please answer this time, I know it does not help to prove your point but thats the way it is.

There is a question of degrees and a huge difference between tossing a 1/4 pound of hot dog surrounded by bread and a fist at someone.



Originally posted by Dave
Is it not a heat of the moment action to chase somebody down who just threw something and hit you in the face?
Again, I would think mr army guy would understand something about proportionate responses. They are not scum and so did not attack them but registered their disgust and left.

How dare they? Those weak women should know their place right Dave?



Originally posted by Dave
Yes it is, but its also more possible that if they kept walking these cretins would have let them alone. We will never know since they threw a hotdog in the guys face instead.
Have them send me the hospital bill for the damage done by the hot dog Dave, you take the soldiers medical bills and well call it a day, how about that?



Originally posted by Dave
Please answer my questions this time instead of avoiding them, thank you.
This last one just leaves me nearly speechless. Keep them coming though punchy.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Skirmisher]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by KraizMaule

Nor will we ever know whether the throwing of the hotdog was a purposeful action or a reflexive action. That is my point. There's far too much unknown for all the opinions that are being bandied about

Again true, but if this debate is handled without insults, I don't see why that should keep us from speculating. You could even argue the differences between reflexive actions and purposeful ones. Would it make the women more ethical if it was reflexive?

Although I would prefer a bit less insults and more reasoned debate.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

I'll leave that to those of you who enjoy that sort of thing, KraizMaule. I, personally, do not enjoy debates involving pure speculation.

If I have facts, I'm happy to debate with those who might disagree with me with regard to those facts. However, I'm not willing to assume anything about an occurance of which I know little more than nothing. That's exactly what I see being done here. A hypothetical discussion concerning ethics would probably be a different story. ;)

Oh......and for Dave....

I'll respond to whom I wish, when I wish, if I wish. I do not choose to respond to you, now or in future.

[Kainen]

This is one of those threads I need to stop reading. Dave's clearly meant-to-be-offensive drivel is making me ill and I don't need that on top of being tired from work.

[Jolena]

I'd just like to add that nowhere in the story did it say the hot dog 'hit the suspect in the face'. It says she threw a hot dog at him. She could have hit him with it in the hand that just groped her, she could have tossed it and it hit his knee, or his stomach or his forearm, any # of places including his face. However we don't know it hit him in the face. So.. using that as an argument is ridiculous as we just don't know.

Other then that, yeah I've nothing else to say. It's getting too shitty here with Dave for my tastes. Perhaps if it comes back to being civil and I am not sickened by his responses about women I'll add some more. I'm not holding my breath however.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by KraizMaule

It's not insightful, it's a generalization. Not all women think like that.

The way Dave is putting his arguments, they're clearly meant to be offensive.

I'm trying to use his comment and change it into a more debatable topic.

If you read my comments, you can see there's a great deal it brings to the discussion if you make it less aggressive.

Edited to add: Nor do I think all women feel this way, of course. Clearly any of us can pick up on a generalization when we see it. However, would you say more women feel this way than don't?

I would say a great many women still look to chivalry in the days of 2005. Whether it's a courtesy or a duty is a deeper question these days. Clearly many people on these boards think Dave would be a bad person because he wouldn't practice chivalry in that instance.

I would personally disagree. Women have equal rights, I would say women now have equal responsibility? Do you agree?

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by KraizMaule]

Personally, I do not look to any man (or woman, for that matter) to come to my defense if I put myself in a position that can bring me to harm. If I'm groped by some neanderthal, against my will, what I do will depend on a number of things that I won't go into here. The possibilities are simply too broad.

I, for one, don't brand Dave (or anyone else) as a "bad person". I don't know whether he is or is not. It doesn't matter to me. I make a decision whether I like someone's style, or don't like it, and react accordingly.

You have, however, hit upon a very important point. It's difficult to have a reasonable, and reasoned, debate when you have someone who purposefully sets out to be offensive. As long as that person is babbling on, no real debate is possible. It's sad, but it's something we see here far too often. :(

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Jolena
I'd just like to add that nowhere in the story did it say the hot dog 'hit the suspect in the face'. It says she threw a hot dog at him. She could have hit him with it in the hand that just groped her, she could have tossed it and it hit his knee, or his stomach or his forearm, any # of places including his face. However we don't know it hit him in the face. So.. using that as an argument is ridiculous as we just don't know.

Other then that, yeah I've nothing else to say. It's getting too shitty here with Dave for my tastes. Perhaps if it comes back to being civil and I am not sickened by his responses about women I'll add some more. I'm not holding my breath however.

Exactly, Jolena. There are so many assumptions with regard to what happened that no discussion is really possible, at this point. Hell, I can picture someone being groped and throwing her hands up in shock (which would be a natural response), the hotdog flying out of her hands in the direction of the perpetrator of said groping. Now...did she throw a hotdog at him? Nevermind if she threw it in his face. Did she even throw the damned thing or did it fly out of her hand?

[Nieninque]

Dave,

Do you know what I like about you?

Absolutely fucking nothing.

You are a narrow-minded, petty individual with an over inflated sense of your own importance and a skewed idea of how much interest other people have in you, your banal experiences and fucked up ideas.

You refuse to change the points you are arguing even when you have successfully arged to the opposite to what you are trying to state...


THERE IS NO JUSTIFYING THE STOMPING OF SOMEBODIES HEAD INTO THE GROUND, NO MATTER THE SITUATION

Your words.

Now, in this thread you have been illiterate, moronic, sexist, racist, contradictory, peurile, banal, and immaturely offensive. Lets quit while you are at your usual standard, hey?

where did i argue that it was justified show me


Harmnone no responce huh?

you want to be held to the same standards Jolena, all women want to be equal. Why not take the same responsibilities?
Why EXPECT the men to get into the fight?
Why is it the honorable thing to do?

[Jolena]

Dave, against my better judgement, I'm going to respond, since it was a question asked directly to me.

Now I'm going to use short statements so that there is no reason for you to misunderstand this yet again.


I did not ever imply or state in this thread that the men who defended these women were expected to do so.

I did not ever imply or state that I had any opinion as to who was at fault for throwing a punch in this fight.

My only reason for starting this thread was to express my disgust at the three men who stomped in a prone, unconscious man's head during a fight that was clearly over.

I do feel that a woman has a right and should defend herself against being groped.

We don't know that the hot dog was thrown in his face, please stop saying that, it's lame.

We don't know that she and her companions did not walk away only to be pursued by these men.

We don't know that she had not been groped several times while walking away before she threw or even (as HN proposed) threw her hands up and the hot dog flew out of her hands.

As for my personal opinion, the only one I have right now is that you are a moronic, sexist, sadly misinformed asshole who loves to make generalizations about women in general and people as a whole.

:cheers: I'm done.

[ElanthianSiren]

I think it's important to note that the girls didn't expect the hospitalized men to help them. Many here seem to be arguing that they did, and I'm not sure where that argument is coming from.

I agree with whomever mentioned that a can of mace would have been great here. As a person, I would not have been able to walk away from the guys getting the shit beaten out of them, so I will agree with whomever made the point that if the girls saw it and walked away, they are cowards.

At night, I doubt the girls got a hotdog from a street vendor. They most likely got the hotdog in the club and threw the hotdog in the club. The soldiers most likely stepped in in the club, and the "fine upstanding gentlemen" most likely backed off until the soldiers chose to leave.

Also, if you judge by appearances constantly IMO, you lose out on meeting some of the most colorful people in your life. I am wary of most people, especially those in large groups, as all people have a high capacity for violence, so I agree with the idea of choosing your fights carefully and making an assessment of the possibilities of a situation. However, judging solely based on appearance is a middle school behavior, IMO.


-M

[Andota]

I live about 30 miles from seattle, and I watch the news EVERY night. We NEVER get news stories about bar fights, and yes, they are a common occurence around here. The only reason this made it to broadcast was because of the video tape, the only reason it made national broadcast was because they were soldiers.

Sad fact of life, but when a fight finds you, you sometimes end up with someone who is rolling with his buddies and you get a 6 on 1 fight that ends up very one sided. Believe me, it only took me one time of washing a bootprint off my face to start picking my fights more wisely. Props to the soldiers for standing up for the girl, but they just picked the wrong fight.

I think a can of mace or a tazer would have gone a ways here, but can you honestly claim you would turn around and tazer a guy for groping you if he was surrounded by his buddies? If he has the audacity to grope you, I'm sure he has no qualms whatsoever about beating your ass, girl or not, for tazering him.

Lose lose situation I think.


Oh, and one clarification. Seattle doesn't have wandering hotdog vendors (at least not I have ever seen), so it had to have been bought in the club. Not that it matters

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
where did i argue that it was justified show me


Harmnone no responce huh?

In arguing that there was someone else to blame for what happened, you are also arguing that they were somewhat justified in their actions.
Joined up thinking, you see. An alien concept to you, I'm sure. Live and learn.

[Andota]

Ok, so I went back and reread some of these news stories (in that pesky newspaper thing), and I found out some interesting information.


The women (after throwing the hotdog) left the area immediately following the groping.
The man who initially confronted the groper was the HUSBAND of one of the women.
AFTER the women left, the husband and two of his friends caught up with the groper and confronted him, and a fight broke out. (doesn't say which two of these three were soldiers)

(this is from a police report, so no, i'm not pulling facts out of my ass here, though they may have been twisted by the newspaper)

I change my mind, its the husbands fault. He rolled up 3 on 1 against the groper and, again, picked the wrong fight and lost.

This really was a common bar fight and should not have made news headlines at all.

edited to say the husband + 2 caught up with the groper, which would imply that the situation had most likely died down some

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Andota]

[KraizMaule]

I think it's important to note that the girls didn't expect the hospitalized men to help them. Many here seem to be arguing that they did, and I'm not sure where that argument is coming from.

I think that came from my theoretical situation, because of the arguments put forth. If the women did not expect the men to jump in, I think they would not have thrown the hotdog, although, as HarmNone says, this is all pure speculation.

However, if the women believe that these girls should have been able to defend themselves, I think that's a common ground both sides can agree on.

Clearly, the men did the honorable thing and stepping in. I wonder if the thugs would have beat up on the women, had they not stepped in. I think things probably would have turned out better had they stayed out, if the women could properly defend themselves.


Also, if you judge by appearances constantly IMO, you lose out on meeting some of the most colorful people in your life.

Appearances or stereotypes? An appearance is part of a stereotype. If I see a fat man walking down the street, I'll think he's fat. If I learn he's white and 35 and still lives with his parents, it becomes a stereotype called white trash.

I have to say, if I'm coming back drunk from a party in West Philly, I don't have the luxury of meeting people. I'm trying not to get mugged.

In the same vein, I feel appearances tell alot about people. Will it tell you the inner workings of their soul? No, but it tells you if they are rich or poor, vain or apathetic, white-collar or blue-collar, and their propensity for crime.

Stereotypes are used my most sensible people in everyday life. If you're going to get to know the person, it won't matter, cause you'll learn. If you're passing them on the street, it's important, cause it is your only knowledge of the person in question.

[KraizMaule]

AFTER the women left, the husband and two of his friends confronted the group and a fight broke out.

If that's true it seems like the soldiers were wrong for 1) Confronting the groper and 2) Losing that fight to a bunch of civilians.

I thought you learned hand to hand combat in the army? If they weren't jumped...they should have been prepared and won.

[Andota]

Ooh, the plot thickens... so one of the seattle papers is saying one thing, and the tacoma papers are saying another.

Tacoma says:

He was confronted by the husband of one of the women. One of the women threw a hot dog at the suspect as she left the area with friends, police said in a news release.

The husband and two of his friends caught up with the other group and a fight began, police said.

Seattle says:

At that point, Whitcomb said, the group decided to leave without going to the club and walked away.

But one of the women grabbed a hotdog and threw it at the man who had groped her.

That man and two men with him followed the group and, at First Avenue and Yesler Way, began to fight with the other men.

I'll admit it, I spoke to soon... I really can't decide who is at fault here since I have two different stories.

I also need to figure out where the hell she got that hotdog!

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Andota]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Dave
Harmnone no responce (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=responce) huh?

A suggestion (http://toolbar.google.com//T3/tour/toolbar5.html)

[Warriorbird]

"I also need to figure out where the hell she got that hotdog! "

Clearly... she must be the girl in Omens' avatar.

[Andota]

(I was wrong in my previous posts. I spoke without really reading all it thoroughly. I admit that I was wrong.)

Here is the scenario I am seeing consistently through the news coverage.


All of them were out front of Larry's club (not inside)


A woman waiting in line to get in was touched inappropriately.

Her friend confronted the suspect, and was touched inappropriately as well

The husband of one of the women got involved and "a heated conversation ensued"

To avoid further conflict, the women and men left, but one of the women threw a hotdog into the face of the groper before doing so.

The suspect gathered his friends and chased them down and a fight ensued at 1st and Yesler (Larry's is on 1st and Washington, which is about 1 1/2 blocks away)

The two men were knocked to the ground almost immediately, they suffered broken jaws, split lips and possible other injuries.

These two men have Fort Lewis addresses (our main army base about 30-40 miles south of seattle) and allegedly returned from Iraq in January from a 12 month tour of duty.

Some of the news stories are saying there was a third victim with a concussion who declined treatment, not sure which side that third guy belonged to and he's not in all the stories.


It is not known at this time where the hotdog came from, but an investigation will commence immediately!

Linkage to all the local coverage


Komo 4 news:
http://www.komotv.com/news/story_m.asp?ID=38738

King 5 news
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_082505WABpioneerbeatingSW.ab2a00a8.html

Kiro 7 news
http://www.kirotv.com/news/4893035/detail.html

Q13 fox news
http://q13.trb.com/news/kcpq-082605-solider,0,5682862.story?coll=kcpq-home-1

Tacoma News Tribune
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5128131p-4667094c.html

Seattle PI
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/237930_fight25.html


Seattle times (All I could find from these guys was this one about someone claiming an officer watched the brawl)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002454046_dige27m.html


I say the throwing of the hotdog was the catalyst, but knowing some of the attitudes of people these days, I'd say the fight would have happened anyways.

Did anyone else notice that this incident happened on July 31st, but didn't recieve any coverage until they released the video to local news just this week?

A picture is worth a thousand words...

My grubby 2 cents.



Edited to say: The newspaper said "the husband and two friends caught up" the WEB page said "That man and two friends caught up" so seee, i wasn't the only moron confused.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Andota]

Alas, Dave was right yet again!

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
Alas, Dave was right yet again!

And just when I think you cant say anything stupider, you prove me wrong.

[Delirium]

I think its amusing how alike Nien and Dave are. They are purposely agressive and yet they hate each other. Two sides of the same coin.

[Sean of the Thread]

I bet you guys would have great sex together..

[Nieninque]

Youre sick

[Sean of the Thread]

Hehe.

Originally posted by Xyelin
I bet you guys would have great sex together..

naw she couldn't handle me :saint:

[Nieninque]

Sure I could...a pitchfork and a can of mace

[HarmNone]

A couple of posts have been removed.

There are several topics within this thread. Pick one. Do not bring in another.

[Sean of the Thread]

Sorry. This thread needed derailment.

Originally posted by HarmNone
A couple of posts have been removed.

There are several topics within this thread. Pick one. Do not bring in another.
you might as well take off the other stuff to if your going to pull my post Harmnone.

An I am sorry Dave you were right will help too.

Edit: from post number 427215 on that is

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by Dave]