Self sufficency

[Celephais]

How dependant on spells are rogues? How viable, and to what level could a hunting rogue expect to get to (not relying on picking for exp)? I know it's doable but how crippling would it be to be an entirely self sufficent hunter (only use your own statues/crystals, pick your own boxes, eat herbs when hurt, and possibly cast your own spells)

What training plan would be best for this? is 2x picking skills enough for like level boxes? What Cmans would be good for this? OHE Ambushing the best due to lack of spell defense?

[The Ponzzz]

Until level 28, I never picked boxes. I trained in 2 weapon styles with TWC and 2x Cms and it took almost all my points. I recently picked up locksmithing skills, dropped a weapon skill and TWC and picked up 3x hiding.

I have yet to find a box currently that I couldn't pick with a vaalin lockpick... I do NOT have spells and I strictly buy pure potions and statues(no MIU or AS either, white crystal do not boost my HURLing AS). I don't think I will have a problem until after the Black Forest... In which case i can pick up more skills...

[Jolena]

Eh, my rogue isn't a box picker but she can definately hunt without spells from others, just using her own skills with scrolls, MIU and other things like pure potions, CMAN's and such. The thing with spell training for a rogue is that you can only have so many per I think it's 3 or 4 trains (someone correct me if that's wrong) before it effects your dux.

If you're going to do that, I'd suggest you hide/ambush/hide. Definately stance dance, and make sure you have some good armor on.

[AnticorRifling]

You'll want some spirit spells when you hit OTF.

[SnatchWrangler]

I was 100% self sufficient uphunting in OTF.

I had up through 414, and a ton of scrolls for 503, 202, 101, 103, and 107. That's all I'd hunt with along with a small statue.

Of course, I'd bum those spells off a friend before burning scrolls, but I did fine if I need to rely on scrolls.

I pretty much quit GS due to the monotony and seemingly going nowhere feeling for the past 15 levels. (I think I quit at level 94ish.)

edit: I was also able to pick the majority of my boxes, but typically I dumped them on a mule character to hold for LM ranks.

[Edited on 8-19-2005 by SnatchWrangler]

[Gan]

I can hunt the tower (lvl 74) with no spells and be successful. My ambushing usually kills on the first swing, and wearing mbp I can take a hit and still stand, not to mention the -18 AvD for metal armor helps the TD. Using CMAN smastery constantly, and surge plus silent strike when there's multiple targets in the room helps negate getting tag teamed. Also using a good threat assessment strategy when fighting multiple targets helps remain alive while you're in RT from an attack.

2x in picking will net you about 85 to 90% of the boxes you pick up in the higher hunting areas like Mahaagra's Tower, OTF, Fire Mages, etc. that are known to have crazy ranges in locks and traps. I chose 3x in picking because I have a character that hunts OTF so being able to pick beyond my level is financially imperative.

I've sufficient ranks in MIU and AS necessary read minor scrolls, use magical items up to ruby amulet level, and only know spells 401 through 404, which are used primarily for picking.

[StrayRogue]

I've hunted 56 levels alone, under my own power gaining exp through the guild and hunting alone. It wasn't that hard, to be honest.

[Stunseed]

< It wasn't that hard, to be honest. >

Except those Ice Hounds that killed you a couple times a day for a month, it seemed.

Good times.

[Jolena]

Ice hounds are teh EVAL

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Stunseed
< It wasn't that hard, to be honest. >

Except those Ice Hounds that killed you a couple times a day for a month, it seemed.

Good times.

Their fucking bolts...

I'm looking forward, actually, to when I'm 66, as you and Jolena will probably be hitting the rift just as I am.

[Jolena]

Yay for the rift! I knwo I know, some folks are going to say it sucks etc. but I'm looking forward to it. Stun and I should be hitting it about the time you do, yes, will be fun to hunt together there instead of just dealing with the zombies I hear rock it there.

[hectomaner]

my bard and rogue will be up rift hunting at that point too. unless the new teras hunting area comes first

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by Jolena
The thing with spell training for a rogue is that you can only have so many per I think it's 3 or 4 trains (someone correct me if that's wrong) before it effects your dux.



you can have 1x spells and still have fairly decent dux

[StrayRogue]

The moment you go over 2x spells you will no longer have redux.

[Stunseed]

< you can have 1x spells and still have fairly decent dux >

:yes:

I am eagerly awaiting a new challenge in the Rift. I've even been able to hunt in the Stronghold a few times. Eight trains to go....

[SnatchWrangler]

Originally posted by hectomaner

Originally posted by Jolena
The thing with spell training for a rogue is that you can only have so many per I think it's 3 or 4 trains (someone correct me if that's wrong) before it effects your dux.



you can have 1x spells and still have fairly decent dux

I had up through 414 spells and wore hauberk with I believe 135 ranks in armor.

Ewaving (with minimum hindrance, 11%?) in somewhat crit padded hauberk was like playing in god mode.

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
The moment you go over 2x spells you will no longer have redux.

what rogue do you know thats 2x in spells?

[Jolena]

Well for the amount of dux you lose over time, I just dont' see the point in 1xing in spells. I *might* and that's a big MIGHT, get some 400's for Jo when she's in her 70'sh trains. I'm still contemplating it.

[Gan]

Is that even possible from a TP perspective? Even if you trained in nothing else... :?:

[Jolena]

Heh, isn't it something like 64 points per spell for a rogue?

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by hectomaner

Originally posted by StrayRogue
The moment you go over 2x spells you will no longer have redux.

what rogue do you know thats 2x in spells?

Did I say any do? None can. However the way the redux formula works it is possible that Wizards, Clerics, Empaths and Sorcerers may gain redux. The 2x barrier to make sure that they can't while remaining decent casters.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Is that even possible from a TP perspective? Even if you trained in nothing else... :?:

There are rogues out there 120/435.

[Gan]

... but not 2x in spells which was my intended point.

[StrayRogue]

No, you can't because rogues can only 1x in spells.

[Celephais]

Would it make more sense from a self sufficency perspective to train a few spells or have higher redux? How badly is a rogue who 0.25x's spells redux affected? (Lets say lvl 40 with 103/407) For that matter how feasible is that with self picking and combat, TP wise.

[StrayRogue]

I'd rather have heavy armor than brig and uber redux. Spells are nice, but don't sacrifice any of the important skills to gain them.

[Victorj]

If you want to be self-sufficient, and want to open like level boxes with 2x in pick/disarm, you need 404. You can survive w/o lore for the first 40 or so levels, but once you hit stuff like roa'ters and Darkstone, you're gonna need lore if you want to get more than 50% of your boxes.

I don't think 407 is really necessary for being self-sufficient, because of lock mastery. If a box is plated and whatnot, you could always wedge it. I have 407 and the only thing I really use it for is to get rid of my lore.

As an alternative to spells, you could always go for MIU and Arcane Symbols. It's much cheaper and doesn't have a major effect on redux, plus you can get spells from other circles. As an added bonus, it'll count towards the spell ranks for spell-burst places, if you ever decide to hunt in any of them.

[Celephais]

Okay from the sound of that I could drop MnE to 404 and maybe go for 107 instead, I'm sure the extra TD could be very helpful. My thoughts on AS and MIU is they are fine for spellburst locations, but part of me being self sufficent would be to not have to get sorcs to charge my scrolls or be buying them on the net all the time. The occasional found flavor scroll would be nice but not reliable.

Essentially would a 0.25x spell rogue be more or less self sufficent as a hunter (reduced redux from spells and those points not being in physical skills)

[Jolena]

Question-- do you still get the bonus to self cast if you cast lore from a scroll?

[Remnar]

My plan's to train up to 406/107 by the time I hit OTF. At 54, I have 404/101 and 15 ranks of arcane...that's without sacrificing any of my core skills. By 59, I'll have 404/103. With 15 arcane, I can cast up most of the good spells from the other circles when I can. I could train up MIU and get imbeds but I never did like wearing too many items RP wise IMO. Not to mention, the good imbeds with the good spells are expensive and hard to come by than scrolls with the same spells. Perhaps someday I'll pick up some ranks in MIU but for now, it's just not my flavor. It also helps that my rogue's married to a bardess so that adds to my advantage. hehe

[The-Cemm]

Good and helpful thread here. These are the same questions I've been asking myself too and thanks to a lot of help I received last night, I think I've got the beginnings* of a plan worked out for the rogue I'm bringing back into activity:

2x OHE, Brawling, Dodging, Hiding, Lockpicking and Disarming

1x Armor, Shield, CM, Ambush, PT, and Perception

1 spell every 5 levels

Goal of adding 20 ranks of arcane symbols and magic item use, 30 ranks of climbing and swimming, and enough Harness Power to support the spell casting by level 40

I guess the bottom line with my current plan is that my rogue will be decidely 'average' at everything. In GS3, my plan for him was very similar and being 'average' was just fine. I'm not sure how that works these days in GS4 yet.

My personal goal would be to have a rogue that can hunt like-level as a hiding and ambushing hunter, both undead and non-undead, but also open the majority of his own boxes (85% or better). He's a dark elf Voln Master, hence the brawling and my original motivation for spells (the GS3 version of 102).

With the changes to 102, now I'm going back and trying to re-weigh the benefits of learning spells at all over going for higher armor and CM. That said, it seems a lot easier to go for having a spell-casting rogue that is 'average' at everything than trying to chase being an expert locksmith or expert hunter (of which it doesn't seem possible to be both).

* I say 'beginnings' because I still don't have a great grasp of using the new Goals character manager yet. How many points I have coming in and going out over time I'm still a little vague on.

[TheEschaton]

Rogues are great because of their diversity. I used to have a rogue who .75x in spells, but granted, that was before redux even ever came out.

My rogue, at 52 trains, doubled in his weapon style, 1.5x in CM, in MBP and tripled in hiding, doubled ambush, up to 404, plus all the other random crap rogues pick up non-combat related can not only hunt with relative ease, but can pick most of his boxes.


-TheE-

[Gan]

I 2x ohe, 1x shield, 1x dodge, 1x cman, 3x lock/trap, 2x ambush, 3x hide, 3x perception, 2x pickpocket and I do very well for a 78 train rogue. 30x climb/swim, 60 ranks in physical training.

I'm going to reduce lock/trap to 2.8x and pick up some additional cman and magical training (AS) so I can wear more spells in OTF.

I can pick 99% of the boxes I get from OTF (duct and Ithzir boxes). Being a balanced rogue is kick ass.

[Gizmo]

Train, 20. Wearing 5x HCP Brig, shooting an Ipantor Longbow with master fletched faewood arrows. I'm personally dropping lockpicking cause normally I never do it, but in Plat the amount of lockpicking rogues are smaller than in prime, even if most rogues in Plat still pick.

I was always aiming for the magical, self-sufficient Rogue, due to the fact, it's a bit harder to come by spells and what not here in the Plat world. Granted, "Self-Sufficient" in Plat means you have to sacrifice one or the other, be it lockpicking or spell ranks. I opted to drop the picking, cause to me, staying alive is alot more important than picking my own boxes. Besides, come Post-Cap, I can always pick up those Lockpicking Ranks..Slowly but surely if I wanted.

However, if you did want to pick and still be self-sufficient with the ability to cast spells as well, I'd go up to 404 for the self-lore, 2x picking, and dabble with AS and MIU when you have the free MTPs. This way, you can simply use scrolls with the Defensive spells you want on them. In the long run it's less costly, but you'd just have to buy the scrolls with the spells you'd want on them. Plenty of options out there for sure.



Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Combat Maneuvers...................| 102 24
Ranged Weapons.....................| 142 42
Ambush.............................| 142 42
Physical Fitness...................| 142 42
Dodging............................| 142 42
Harness Power......................| 54 11
Disarming Traps....................| 138 39
Picking Locks......................| 132 36
Stalking and Hiding................| 142 42
Perception.........................| 142 42
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 5 1
Pickpocketing......................| 142 42

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 6