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JustMe
10-06-2003, 01:17 PM
What is your opinion on the best way to train a rogue in GS4?

Halfsilver
10-06-2003, 01:19 PM
Rogue skill costs are all going up for gs4.

suck.

-grays/d

Carl Spackler
10-06-2003, 03:02 PM
My estimation is that rogues will be better off picking and stealing than hunting... but thats just a guess

Xcalibur
10-06-2003, 03:07 PM
my guess, i would do that is this

1X armor, shield, pt, dodge, fa, survival, trade
2X detect trap, pick lock, hide, ambush, cm, weapon, perception, pick pocket

spare point into more dodging OR armor
and some spells

that rogue would be master of none beside combats, but be able to do almost anything

[Edited on 6-10-03 by Xcalibur]

Carl Spackler
10-06-2003, 03:16 PM
Agreed, but i may even consider tripling in locks, from the hunting I've been doing so far with my ranger and rogue, it looks like hiding and ambush is pretty obsolete. I'll post what my rogue will look like at 15 in GSIV in a few.

Carl Spackler
10-06-2003, 03:36 PM
at 15

I'll be

1x shield
1x armor
2x edged
2x ambush
3 spells, up to 403
3 ranks of harness power
3x picking
3x disarming
2x stalk&hide
2x perception
5 ranks of climbing
5 ranks of swimming
2x picking pockets

Xcalibur
10-06-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Carl Spackler
at 15

I'll be

1x shield
1x armor
2x edged
2x ambush
3 spells, up to 403
3 ranks of harness power
3x picking
3x disarming
2x stalk&hide
2x perception
5 ranks of climbing
5 ranks of swimming
2x picking pockets

rogue will still kick ass, i would not do your training plan, but you'll have fun, that's for sure

Carl Spackler
10-06-2003, 04:02 PM
how come you wouldn't do it? any suggestions for change?

Xcalibur
10-06-2003, 05:30 PM
that (cm), and i think any 3X is waste

Artha
10-06-2003, 05:57 PM
I will be a kick ass hunter and still 2.5x picking locks and disarming traps, 1-2x (can't remember) perception, and 2x picking pockets.

Carl Spackler
10-06-2003, 08:33 PM
I see your point in CM, but without it I'll still have a nice swing. But will not training in CM effect my ability to train in guild skills, I know that it will effect my MS but is CM gonna be require to train in them?

Artha
10-06-2003, 08:54 PM
It will when the combat skills get moved over to the CM list for phase 2.

Carl Spackler
10-06-2003, 08:55 PM
excellent, looks like im going back to the drawing board

Artha
10-06-2003, 09:21 PM
If you're interested, I can post my training plan/stats for GSIV.

Considering I'll be kick ass, it might help you.

Carl Spackler
10-06-2003, 09:47 PM
well hell im interested

Xcalibur
10-06-2003, 10:19 PM
cm is important, if not you'll hunt like a cleric in gs3 (good for 0-50, bad for the rest)

StrayRogue
10-06-2003, 11:56 PM
*Roll eyes* Rogues are still the most versatile. I hate all the BS on the official boards how they are getting the shaft. NO, they are not. Ambush is getting the shaft, which indirectly effects rogues. As for TPs, they are still good.

You can breed a decent combat rogue with 2x picking and disarming. Grays, that ranged combat using ranger I sent you, I have a rogue who is fully doubled in brawl, dodge, ambush, ranged, armor, hide, perception, Pick Pockets, Picking Locks and Disarm.

Stay is a war rogue, who is easily able to double CM, Shield, Edged, Ambush, Dodge, and Hide, while safely singling in perception, armor, PT and survival. Oh, he also has nearly 25 spells at the cap, with plenty of mana.

Every single one of my characters have 25 ranks of climbing/swimming, most before 50. Every single one of my characters have 25 ranks or more of Arcane Reading, and MIU.

I have one war rogue, one archer, one pure picker, and one jack-of-all. All have more skills and in better quantities than any of my other characters.

Kalishar
10-07-2003, 12:22 PM
I agree with StrayRogue comeplety. While yes, ambush is getting the shaft, Rogues are not. With this plan, I've got more primary skills than in GS3, while only taking a small hit to secondary, which I think is more than worth it.

Name: Kalishar Tryl'ett Race: Dark Elf Profession: Rogue (shown as: Bandit)
Gender: Male Age: 101 Expr: 2369638 Level: 47
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 86 (18) ... 86 (18)
Constitution (CON): 80 (10) ... 80 (10)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 81 (5) ... 81 (5)
Aura (AUR): 97 (33) ... 97 (33)
Logic (LOG): 61 (5) ... 61 (5)
Intuition (INT): 67 (13) ... 67 (13)
Wisdom (WIS): 83 (21) ... 83 (21)
Influence (INF): 51 (-5) ... 51 (-5)
Mana: 14 Silver: 535

Kalishar (at level 47), your skill bonuses and ranks are:
Skill Name | Bonus Ranks Goals Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 148 48 48
Shield Use.........................| 148 48 48
Combat Maneuvers...................| 148 48 48
Edged Weapons......................| 196 96 96
Thrown Weapons.....................| 196 96 96
Ambush.............................| 196 96 96
Physical Fitness...................| 136 38 38
Dodging............................| 196 96 96
Arcane Symbols.....................| 5 1 1
Magic Item Use.....................| 10 2 2
Survival...........................| 78 17 17
Disarming Traps....................| 196 96 96
Picking Locks......................| 196 96 96
Stalking and Hiding................| 244 144 144
Perception.........................| 196 96 96
Climbing...........................| 82 18 18
Swimming...........................| 82 18 18
First Aid..........................| 50 10 10
Pickpocketing......................| 196 96 96
Training Points: 46 Phy 33 Mnt

I am honestly glad for being able to train like this, especially picking up Thrown Weapons. I could never do that in GS3 without sacrificing something I didnt want to sacrifice.

--Edited to add my love of throwing weapons--

[Edited on 10-7-2003 by Kalishar]

AnticorRifling
10-07-2003, 12:35 PM
I'm thinking about keeping my rogue the same, I was debating adding in ranged at the cost of my picking skills but I like to get close when I kill. Then again ranged makes for great hidden kills... Decisions, decisions.

Drew2
10-07-2003, 12:39 PM
FYI, very reliable sources tell me that training in PT beyond the HP limit has significant benefits.

AncientPlayer
10-17-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by StrayRogue
Stay is a war rogue, who is easily able to double CM, Shield, Edged, Ambush, Dodge, and Hide, while safely singling in perception, armor, PT and survival. Oh, he also has nearly 25 spells at the cap, with plenty of mana.
Just curious, which spells did you learn and what armor type (chain or plate?) do you use?

StrayRogue
10-17-2003, 03:35 PM
Chain, 414 and 108. Thats old style. Since I went Two-handed, I upped my armor to 1.5x alongside my PT, and dropped down to only 406 and 107.

Artha
10-17-2003, 05:30 PM
I've got a plan which will allow me to pick, hunt, and steal, all very well. Rogues can still be the jack of all trades.

StrayRogue
10-17-2003, 05:33 PM
Jack of All, Master of None.

Parkbandit
10-17-2003, 05:36 PM
I need to mess with the spreadsheet I think... I must have screwed something up because I certainly don't have the TPs to learn a 2nd weapon class and still pick effectively.

And CM isn't live on GS4 yet is it? I didn't see anyway to actually see what maneuvers were available for Falgrin last night.

StrayRogue
10-17-2003, 05:42 PM
CM isn't live til Phase 2, though we may have some at the launch of Phase 1. No, we don't have points to pick up a second weapon class. Izalude was caught in the 2x TP bug, which doubled all his TP growth giving him uber points to spend on everything.

Carl Spackler
10-18-2003, 05:42 PM
heres my newest model... hack it up, please.

Hedi (at level 14), your skill bonuses and ranks are:
Skill Name | Bonus Ranks Goals Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 70 15 15
Shield Use.........................| 70 15 15
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 120 30 30
Ambush.............................| 120 30 30
Physical Fitness...................| 70 15 15
Harness Power......................| 25 5 5
Survival...........................| 70 15 15
Disarming Traps....................| 120 30 30
Picking Locks......................| 120 30 30
Stalking and Hiding................| 120 30 30
Perception.........................| 120 30 30
Climbing...........................| 50 10 10
Swimming...........................| 25 5 5
First Aid..........................| 70 15 15
Trading............................| 70 15 15
Pickpocketing......................| 124 32 32

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 3 3
Training Points: 36 Phy 4 Mnt

Name: Hedi Hedican Race: Half-Elf Profession: Rogue (shown as: Hoodlum)
Gender: Male Age: 500 Expr: 259106 Level: 14
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 77 (13) ... 77 (13)
Constitution (CON): 57 (3) ... 57 (3)
Dexterity (DEX): 77 (18) ... 77 (18)
Agility (AGI): 77 (23) ... 77 (23)
Discipline (DIS): 83 (11) ... 83 (11)
Aura (AUR): 73 (11) ... 73 (11)
Logic (LOG): 74 (12) ... 74 (12)
Intuition (INT): 76 (13) ... 76 (13)
Wisdom (WIS): 72 (11) ... 72 (11)
Influence (INF): 47 (4) ... 47 (4)
Mana: 23 Silver: 8105

Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...3

(offensive)
A rolton tries to bite you!
AS: +36 vs DS: +115 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +15 = -32
A clean miss.

(defensive no shield)
Geburah swings a mace at you!
AS: +72 vs DS: +203 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +19 = -83
A clean miss.
Mace clashes with enhancive claidhmore!
[STR/DU: 65/250 vs. 74/199, d100(Open)= 149]

>kill warf
You swing an enhancive claidhmore at a krolvin warfarer!
AS: +195 vs DS: +72 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +56 = +211
... and hit for 106 points of damage!
Smash to cheek driving bone through the eye and into the brain.
The krolvin warfarer falls to the ground and lies still.
Enhancive claidhmore clashes with cuirbouilli leather!
[STR/DU: 74/199 vs. 44/268, d100(Open)= 45]
Roundtime: 6 sec.

claid is +4 enchanced, I will be using a +2 claid when I actually start in GS4.

StrayRogue
10-18-2003, 05:47 PM
Nice to know I am trailblazing by being the first 2-handed spell casting rogue in GS. I'm also guessing the above was done under the 2x TP bug.

Carl Spackler
10-18-2003, 05:50 PM
nope that was done 2 nights ago

Carl Spackler
10-18-2003, 05:52 PM
im considering dropping fist aid and survivial and picking up CM

StrayRogue
10-18-2003, 05:54 PM
Ah yes, I wondered where all your tps came from.

Carl Spackler
10-18-2003, 05:56 PM
I'll show you my stat placement if you wish, to see what i start out with.

StrayRogue
10-18-2003, 05:59 PM
Ah its OK thanks. You've only got 15 levels of growth as a Half-elf; its pretty easy to calculate ;)

Carl Spackler
10-18-2003, 06:01 PM
yeah very true... im actually going back to mangler now to mess around and get CM... til then...

StrayRogue
10-18-2003, 06:23 PM
Here's Stay to compare against if you like...

Stay (at level 27), your skill bonuses and ranks are:
Skill Name | Bonus Ranks Goals Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 114 28 28
Combat Maneuvers...................| 114 28 28
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 156 56 56
Ambush.............................| 142 42 42
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5 5
Physical Fitness...................| 142 42 42
Dodging............................| 156 56 56
Arcane Symbols.....................| 58 12 12
Magic Item Use.....................| 58 12 12
Harness Power......................| 15 3 3
Stalking and Hiding................| 156 56 56
Perception.........................| 114 28 28
Climbing...........................| 30 6 6
Swimming...........................| 30 6 6

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 1 1
Minor Spirit.......................| 3 3
Training Points: 103 Phy 71 Mnt

Back
10-18-2003, 06:40 PM
There must be a good reason, but I'm missing it. Why do this with a rogue, wasting all those TPs, when you could do it much more effectively with a ranger?

StrayRogue
10-18-2003, 06:47 PM
Why not? I like the elemental spells. I like being able to wear heavy armor and have redux while being able to cast spells. I like the guild as well ;) Excellent skills to aid me in my use of the two-handed weapon.

IcyPoison
10-18-2003, 07:00 PM
I've always wanted a two handed rogue.. nice to see a few made in GS4 to get an idea.

Artha
10-18-2003, 07:15 PM
I was thinking of it too...claidhmore + ambush = pain...how's a claidh ambush look in GSIV, stray?

StrayRogue
10-18-2003, 07:56 PM
Erm. Well you can't hit for shit. I hit what I aim at maybe 25% of the time. Weapon size, perception and ambush all play a part I think.

The crits being random are an arse, pretty much neutralizing the effectiveness of a claidh. Plus, it is dismaying to see you doing 100+ raw damage and not stunning. The eight second rt is a pain as well. My DS when webbed was 2. Etc

Its fun. I am doing it mainly for character reasons.

[Edited on 19-10-03 by StrayRogue]

Carl Spackler
10-18-2003, 10:34 PM
I'm enjoying it so far. I rip through krolvin pretty easy. I like it stray, you went even more magical than i did. Although I like being able to pick as well. I think I'm gonna shoot for 410, and then beef up all my physical skills.

Trinitis
10-19-2003, 01:15 PM
I had a two handed rogue in GS3 years ago named Trinitis..But I found after 15 levels or so..the extra criticals from claidmore, stacked with the ambushing, just seemed overkill. IN GS4, I bet that will be fun now.

-Adredrin

Grandsome
10-20-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Artha
I was thinking of it too...claidhmore + ambush = pain...how's a claidh ambush look in GSIV, stray?

Grabbs posted a kinda long log on the official boards Artha. It's under the Rogue Folder, Great Ambushes. I think the title was Two Handed Grabbs or something like that. He said he was hunting like 10 levels over his head with ease.....

Mason

Disrupture
12-09-2003, 02:41 PM
Well, here is my rogue at 21. I'm looking for some input as well, especially on what combat manuvers to learn.

Valkar (at level 21), your skill bonuses and ranks are:
Skill Name | Bonus Ranks Goals Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 99 23 23
Combat Maneuvers...................| 99 23 23
Ranged Weapons.....................| 146 46 46
Ambush.............................| 146 46 46
Physical Fitness...................| 146 46 46
Dodging............................| 146 46 46
Disarming Traps....................| 146 46 46
Picking Locks......................| 146 46 46
Stalking and Hiding................| 146 46 46
Perception.........................| 169 69 69
Pickpocketing......................| 146 46 46
Training Points: 0 Phy 27 Mnt (274 Mnt converted to Phy)

I also would love some suggestions on where to put those extra 27 mental TPs, or if I should just save them.

Czeska
12-09-2003, 03:09 PM
Trylia is fully trained in pick and disarm, and I'm keeping ambush. I know it's been changed, but I'm still critting zombies a lot (at 24). Yeah, I know they're younger than Tryl is. I crit in Anwyn too (carceris).
I am not taking a single spell. It's partially for IC reasons, partially because i have friends who can cast lore (and a 70+ level sorc casts decent lore) and partially cause I'd rather spend those points elsewhere.
I am *definitely* training in CM, when phase 2 hits (or whenever the shadow mastery etc comes out) I'll be all over it. 'sides... it's fun :)

~Czeska, et al

Sean
12-09-2003, 03:15 PM
i know its not the best but this is my rogue in gs4 at 40.

Skill Name | Bonus Ranks Goals Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 141 41 41
Shield Use.........................| 141 41 41
Combat Maneuvers...................| 170 70 70
Edged Weapons......................| 184 84 84
Ambush.............................| 182 82 82
Physical Fitness...................| 145 45 45
Dodging............................| 170 70 70
Arcane Symbols.....................| 58 12 12
Harness Power......................| 20 4 4
Disarming Traps....................| 182 82 82
Picking Locks......................| 182 82 82
Stalking and Hiding................| 202 102 102
Perception.........................| 182 82 82
Climbing...........................| 93 21 21
Swimming...........................| 93 21 21
First Aid..........................| 50 10 10

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4 4

DaMaGe
12-09-2003, 04:53 PM
Here's mine. And yes, he kicks ass.

(at level 6), your skill bonuses and ranks are:
Skill Name | Bonus Ranks Goals Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 40 8 8
Shield Use.........................| 40 8 8
Combat Maneuvers...................| 35 7 7
Edged Weapons......................| 74 16 16
Thrown Weapons.....................| 35 7 7
Ambush.............................| 66 14 14
Physical Fitness...................| 35 7 7
Dodging............................| 66 14 14
Arcane Symbols.....................| 40 8 8
Disarming Traps....................| 74 16 16
Picking Locks......................| 102 24 24
Stalking and Hiding................| 66 14 14
Perception.........................| 74 16 16
Climbing...........................| 35 7 7
Swimming...........................| 35 7 7
Pickpocketing......................| 74 16 16


-Adam

peam
12-11-2003, 02:55 PM
Could someone post some decent starting stats/training plan for a rogue from level 0?

Two-weapon user would be preferred. GS4 = lost Peam.