House Approves Renewal of Patriot Act

[Gan]

Friday, July 22, 2005; Posted: 3:25 a.m. EDT (07:25 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The House voted by a wide margin Thursday night to renew expiring provisions of the USA Patriot Act, the collection of antiterrorism measures passed after the September 11, 2001, attacks.

The final vote was 257-171. The bill makes permanent 14 of 16 provisions in the act set to expire next year and extends two others for another 10 years.

...

In the final tally, 14 Republicans bucked Bush and the party leadership to vote against the Patriot Act renewal. Among Democrats, 43 supported it, while 156 voted no.

However, a number of top Democrats supported the bill, including five members of the party's House leadership -- Steny Hoyer, the minority whip; Robert Menendez and Jim Clyburn, the chairman and vice chairman of the Democratic caucus; John Spratt, assistant minority leader; and Rahm Emanuel, who chairs the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

The ranking Democrats on the Intelligence and Armed Services committees -- Reps. Jane Harman and Ike Skelton -- also voted yes.

The final vote concluded a marathon House session that stretched late into the night, during which representatives considered numerous amendments to the Patriot Act renewal.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/21/patriot.act/index.html
________________________________

The Senate still has to approve its version and then it will have to be combined/agreed upon in comittee, but it looks like there's enough participation on both sides to ensure that the broad use language included in the original bill will be narrowed with tighter controls.

[Parkbandit]

If those bombings in England didn't happen.. I imagine it wouldn't have passed.

[Warriorbird]

Man. I wish we could fire our portion of Congress.

[Skirmisher]

That is very very sad.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Man. I wish we could fire our portion of Congress.

You can. It's called the 2006 Elections.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. Then we'd have yours though. It'd be even worse.

[Edited on 7-22-2005 by Warriorbird]

[DeV]

Yeah, this is truly fucked up news. And, It's not surprising that it was passed because they need this law in order to continue figthing the so-called "war on terror".

[Skirmisher]

It's "terrah", get it right.

[Atlanteax]

I for one applaud the passage. :clap:

The concerns regarding infringement on Civil Liberties are quite overblown.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
I for one applaud the passage. :clap:

The concerns regarding infringement on Civil Liberties are quite overblown.

Until they are your own.

[Hulkein]

lolpwnd

Should've signed more petitions, slackers.

[DeV]

Yeah, first London gets lolpwnd and now this. :thumbsdown:

[Hulkein]

I wouldn't call London a lolpwning.

This makes me laugh, though. :lol2:

[Edited on 7-22-2005 by Hulkein]

[DeV]

It makes me laugh too, ninja style. :drunk:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
I for one applaud the passage. :clap:

The concerns regarding infringement on Civil Liberties are quite overblown.

I agree.

Like one Congress woman said.. 'I do care about civil liberties.. I just don't give one iota about a terrorist's civil liberties'.

The Patriot Act was responsible for a number of good things like the breakup of the terrorist cell in upstate NY and the locating of the underground tunnel between US and Canada.

When some law abiding citizen proves to me what specific liberties they lost.. I'll listen.

[Warriorbird]

Those would've happened without the Patriot Act.

Most of it has nothing to do with terrorism.

It can only be applied to terror related law enforcement. That is the only thing it is related to.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Dave
It can only be applied to terror related law enforcement. That is the only thing it is related to.

Yes, but what does terror-related law enforcement entail? How do you label someone a terroristic threat before they engage in an act of true terrorism? Isn't that what the Patriot Act was created to do -- defend the freedom of the american people by catching terror before the next 911?

I think that's where it starts getting murky. I doubt there'd be the argument about it if it only applied to individuals already proven to be terrorists, rather than terror suspects.

-M

[Artha]

If you can prove they're terrorists before the Patriot Act applies, you don't really need it.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Artha
If you can prove they're terrorists before the Patriot Act applies, you don't really need it.

Right, which brings up questions of due process/innocent until proven guilty, which I think is where the crux of the dissent is.

-M

[Ilvane]

All the terrorism in the world isn't going to be stopped by throwing more money at it. The Patriot act is another excuse to get more involved in our citizen's lives.

It sadly doesn't make me feel safer.

Oh, and for all those Republicans that say Democrats spend too much..I'd rather throw money in social programs than into more military spending anyday.

-A

Which is why it is good your not in charge.
Hell our troop cant even afford to buy toilet paper right now.

[Edited on 7-23-2005 by Dave]

[Ilvane]

Then where is all the money going that they are so called spending?? Maybe there is an issue with your President and his administration if that is the truth.

-A

To those who need it more than I need toilet paper :)
You know the guys you say you support but don't think they should get the money they need.

And if you're american, he is your president too. Dont forget that.

[Edited on 7-23-2005 by Dave]

[Ilvane]

I have nothing against the troops, and you can try to twist my words if you want to..but the money being spent is getting insane. At this point our grandchildren's grandchildren are going to be paying the bills.

These people have literally been fighting each other for thousands of years..do you think we are going to stop it in 10 or even 20?

-A

Let them fight each other, just make sure they are not fighting us.


What will you say when its a subway in boston that gets bombed next? Yea lets just sit back and let them do whatever it is they want. Great idea.

[Terminator X]

i had a friend in high-school who was jailed, super-hardcore, after making false IDs like a little after a month from when the planes hit the towers
He literally had some fed-shit smoke him when he was in his house like that fat kid from the 'Hackers' movie.
All i know is that before the actual passing of the patriot act, you would have had to have Kobe money to make an effective case against this kid...
At best, the patriot jails teenagers with fake IDs.

[Ilvane]

Dave, do your really think the Patriot act is going to stop some insane suicide bomber from putting a bomb in his briefcase and walking on to a train?

No amount of money is going to stop it, unless they pat down and open bags of every person walking onto a commuter train..which is not likely.

-A

And to all you people complaining about your civil liberties, you do understand that they provisions in the patriot act can ONLY be used in an active anti-terrorism investigation, as well as the information can only be used to prosecute terror related crimes.

Instead of just being ignorant about it, read up on it. And no Warriorbird 99.2767865239528746% of your websites are biased so you need to open your horizons.

[Warriorbird]

"It can only be applied to terror related law enforcement. That is the only thing it is related to. "

Bullshit.

Originally posted by Ilvane
Dave, do your really think the Patriot act is going to stop some insane suicide bomber from putting a bomb in his briefcase and walking on to a train?

No amount of money is going to stop it, unless they pat down and open bags of every person walking onto a commuter train..which is not likely.

-A

Yes I do. And money is not being thrown at the patriot act. It is a law which allows intelligence collection on U.S. persons who are suspected in conspiracy to commit terror related crimes.

You dont have to stop the bomber as he walks in. You stop him at his home before he goes, you stop him as he is collecting the material to create his bomb, you stop him as he sits at his house talking on his cell phone to his terroirst buddies.
That is how you stop it, that is how you put and end to it, that is what the patriot act allows to occur.
A better question is Do you think you know more than those who actively are involved in antiterrorism operations in the U.S. and support the bill because of the powerful tools it gives them to keep the people of this country safe?

[Terminator X]

Originally posted by Dave
And to all you people complaining about your civil liberties, you do understand that they provisions in the patriot act can ONLY be used in an active anti-terrorism investigation, as well as the information can only be used to prosecute terror related crimes.

Instead of just being ignorant about it, read up on it. And no Warriorbird 99.2767865239528746% of your websites are biased so you need to open your horizons.

Actually knowing someone whose had sections of it cited to them in an indictment (Grand Court) I can tell you that I know one instance of when that was not true

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"It can only be applied to terror related law enforcement. That is the only thing it is related to. "

Bullshit.

So are you saying that they can look up your "library" records whenever they want?

Originally posted by Terminator X

Originally posted by Dave
And to all you people complaining about your civil liberties, you do understand that they provisions in the patriot act can ONLY be used in an active anti-terrorism investigation, as well as the information can only be used to prosecute terror related crimes.

Instead of just being ignorant about it, read up on it. And no Warriorbird 99.2767865239528746% of your websites are biased so you need to open your horizons.

Actually knowing someone whose had sections of it cited to them in an indictment (Grand Court) I can tell you that I know one instance of when that was not true
who, what state, what provisions, what crimes were they charged with.

[Edaarin]

I'm so thankful that Dave has time whilst protecting the freeworld to grace us with his presence and sharp observations.

Its the weekend. :)

[Ilvane]

I'm sorry Dave, but I don't think you are right..I think that we are just as much in danger now, if not more since getting involved in Iraq and Afghanistan. Personally I wish we could catch the guys that were responsible in the World Trade Center bombing, that would be wonderful.

But I don't feel safer with the Patriot act, it's just another political act to make us feel better after 9/11. Sadly like the attacks on London prove, good intentions and hard work don't always save lives from terrorists.

-A

You are free to believe what you wish. I see that there has not been a terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11.
Thats proof enough for me that something is goin right.

[Edaarin]

There also were no terrorist attacks on the US between 1996 and 2001.

What's your point.

[Terminator X]

bah, I cannot find my spiral that I wrote the case # down in, but it probably wouldn't be wise to distribute such information on public forums anyway.


who, what state, what provisions, what crimes

My friend.

The state I lived in at the time.

I'm not sure which provisions you are talking about. The provisions that were used to "capture" him seemed to entail that he would have been hiding a freaking nuke-u-lure weapon in his basement at the time.

The Patriot Act was effectively harped upon by prosecutors, in what I know were at least two sessions, to sway jurors who were extremely sensitive at the time from the recent events in the U.S.

if i actually remembered the exact format of the case # (district;jurisdiction;other funky numbers) i probably wouldn't release that info cause this is the internet and thatd be a little bit fucking preposterous....

HOWEVER if it does help your curiousity at all he used to have the IDs he was making for other kids on his computer, the charges against him were in relation to the fact that that info was somehow seen on his computer by some government policing agency, it was then used by local law enforcement to arrest my friend.

the only reason i actually wrote this much is because it actually kind of bothers me to this day

and btw i know this kid obviously was breaking the law, it's just that clauses of the patriot act which were acted on at the time were vehemently misused

[Edited on 7-23-2005 by Terminator X]

[ElanthianSiren]

Again, the general problem with the Patriot Act is that it makes the assumption that individuals engaging in questionable behavior are terrorists. They may be guilty of illegal acts, but it seems to invent the intent of those illegal acts.

Example: It does NOT require proof that the fake ID's that Term X's 'friend' was making were used in terroristic acts, more that they COULD be. Yet, every one of us is capable of illegal activities.

By our own Constitution in this country, we are traditionally assumed innocent until proven guilty of a crime, (even terrorism), as was pointed out judiciously in the Karl Rove thread; if government would like to do away with that right, they should attempt to do as much blatantly.

-M

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
These people have literally been fighting each other for thousands of years..do you think we are going to stop it in 10 or even 20? Yeah, look how many wars Germany has started since WW II.
Originally posted by Edaarin
There also were no terrorist attacks on the US between 1996 and 2001We neither invaded Iraq nor Afghanistan in that time period. Therefore, the idea that we have been in more danger since then is incompatible with the reality that we have not been attacked since. It is of course very possible that we've just been lucky, but it is more likely that we have been in less danger on American soil.

[Artha]

We neither invaded Iraq
We bombed Iraq some.

[Skirmisher]

Actually Dave, unless the some of thr new provisions changed it, there must simply be stated by the agents that they BELIEVE that it is related to terrorism.

Now, the problem with this is, no one knows when these much wider range of powers are used, so who can say that they are all being used to fight terrorism?

The short answer is you can't.

So you are forced to trust that the only use of powers granted to the govt are in those set out in the laws.

And we all know that the govt functions incredibly well when it has no check or oversight.

[Warriorbird]

"Yeah, look how many wars Germany has started since WW II."

That has to be about the most stupid historical parallel ever.